EPTShadowing Players - Page 4
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:27 Blazinghand wrote: nobody ever illicitly asks _me_ for advice ;_; i have no friends  I think they're scared of you. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
why would they be scared of me rofl i'm always so kind and gentle | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
What the fuck? Like, what in the literal penis-inside-vagina fuck? How can you be so self-aware of playing like shitty dick and AT THE SAME TIME, IN THE SAME BREATH, DO A VOTE WITHOUT A REAL CASE? Like, I get it, austinmcc hasn't contributed, but that's not why people are up his ass. What about his reaction to the prplhz case? What about his subsequent defense and explanation? Did you actually read his filter or did you pull a lurker vote out of your ass? If you're gonna throw away your vote on a non-wagon, AT LEAST EXPLAIN YOURSELF. The other two did thatpoorly, but at least they made vague, groping attempts at it. I don't even know what your deal is. I don't even know what to say about you three other than that if you really are town, if your mothers were reading this mafia game they'd be crying because she'd raised a useless townie I don't think gentle when I think of you lol. I remember stuff like this. But it's still hilarious to read. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:44 HiroPro wrote: I don't think gentle when I think of you lol. I remember stuff like this. But it's still hilarious to read. i'm so gentle | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:02 HiroPro wrote: If I ever found out that someone did this in a game I was hosting without letting me know, I would modkill them. That's pretty much like being a hydra. Telling people what you're doing or playing as is one thing. But asking them to give you advice and analyze the game for you is not ok. people do this all the time, it's not against any rules. | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
Before I start for the avoidance of doubt, I will be categorical. I believe the game of mafia as experienced by people on this site would be aided by the appropriate use of shadowing/mentoring. Doing so will both mitigate the difficulties new players find in playing this sometimes emotionally charged game, it will also tend to generate a more capable group of players that will make it a more challenging and hence fun game for all. The increased rate of learning and the calmer perspective should also increase the retention rate. Many(&more) benefits are plausible. While there are risks, as described below the concept of shadowing and mentoring and the fact that that causes some "information to leak", is not unique, and so other external social interactions will also probably sometimes cause some information to unavoidably leak. The trick to minimise harm is to ensure that the information does not leak into the game. (or rather the minimum information). My solution for that is if at any time it is plausible I have information that leaked I act as if I do have the information. (thus it is not even possible to deduce if information actually leaked due to my actions. Why do that? Some information is more likely to leak than others. Even information about whether or not information leaked is information...!) Thus during LX whether or not any information leaked from Aqua to me, I simply don't post anything anywhere. In that way both the information and even the meta information about whether or not information leaked cannot leak further. While that may seem stupidly excessive to some people, it is what I do. What is this leaking? During LIX, in under 5 mins of talking about other RL stuff Aqua just 'knew' I was scum. Aqua was co-hosting British and now that I have seen that sceanrio, in that scenario nothing will leak ever. I suspect over time the leaking while playing will subside a lot. Leaking when real world contacts exist is hardest to plug; Usually in my view impossible to do so completely. One reason I think, information leaks even via normal social online text interactions, is lack of awareness, To me, examples of puzzles such as the Monty Hall problem, where many humans find it quite challenging to identify that there was indeed an information transfer, demonstrate that it is likely many humans will not realise just how much information leaks by what methods. (I have lost it, but in a thread here on TL, there is a whole class of meta information puzzles (typically mathematicians locked in dungeons. Visible Lights over everyone elses head, et al. In these puzzles information is derived not only from action but from the lack of action.) Consider what happens (not if shadowing but just socially chatting) If I normally chat with you, but then that backs off (gets tight/careful?) while I and you are playing in game X... from your point of view has the conditional probability that I am scum gone up? Well it could also be other real life things taking my time so it cant be certain, but that out of game observation is information. (for players who are sick of rolling scum it might well mean the opposite) If I had an even more challenging and exciting role such as 3P and I stood chance of winning would that (time/willingness to chat outside) be even more indicative. Once you start considering not just the hard knowledge of I have seen my PM but also the subtle inferential knowledge that scum reads are usually based on, truely stopping information leakage in mafia games is a challenging problem. My personal solution is, at times when it is true or even just possible that I have knowledge to simply stop posting elsewhere. Thus recently while Aqua played in LX, it was possible information would leak to me so I posted nothing in this thread. As far as I know, nothing in this post indicates anything,(and he is now flipped) however _always_ not posting anything at all certainly conveys no information. (Well it conveys no information if that decision is only based on the already public knowledge of who is in what game) You might ask, "Is that an argument that Shadowing is bad as it makes an already potentially leaky information problem worse?" Well in fact given my experience, making shadowing a known and conscious decision might well reduce information leakage as players become more aware of all the ways their other normal social interaction might leak information outside the game thread. I know contemplating the strong potential for leakage of information from Aqua to me has made me ultra careful about what I do outside of a game thread. I now personally have policy of posting nothing anywhere if I am in a game or (have the possibility of) having (oopsies) information about a game. Thus while I wanted to post this message in this thread earlier I did not, as it is possible I had information about Aquas role in LX. + Show Spoiler + In LIX, he guessed mine in <5min of chatter about non mafia related things. By Guessed, I mean lynch with fire certainty. (oopsies: information I have that I shouldn't but is unavoidable) On February 24 2013 09:28 GMarshal wrote: After the conclusion of Nomination Mafia, I thought it would be beneficial to make this thread. The point of this thread is to control and organize how shadowing works, so that games don't get overwhelmed with everyone shadowing and so that hosts and players are kept in the loop. Shadowing - What is shadowing? Shadowing is participating alongside one of the players of a game of Mafia. Think of it as sort of a reverse coaching. In traditional coaching, you as the player are asking for tips and advice from your coach in regards to your role and the game-state. In the case of shadowing, you are in direct contact with ONE player with the goal of getting insight into how that player perceives and plays their current game. The shadow never interacts directly with the game/thread or others involved with the game. It is a one-to-one relationship with a single player in a game. As people may or may not have noticed I sometimes have rather unique view of the world. Shadowing is no different. While shadowing/mentoring is a thing with a name and a description and it is being discussed, like the concept of tall people it is not exactly defined and there are greynesses. (FYI living vs inanimate, male vs female have similar problems, very few things in the world don't have a spectrum and are strictly categorical.) I imagine that not everyone that plays this game is sitting in their mothers basement fed intravenously by a hose. As such most people have outside social RL interactions where they bitch(vent) about stuff in their lives, and one of those things vented about is mafia and the other players in it. Sometimes the people vented/spoken too have no knowledge, and simply nod wisely (and wish you'd go away). Sometimes the people vented/spoken too have general knowledge of the game and suggest chilling out a bit. Sometimes the people vented/spoken too have specific knowledge of the personalities involved. The problem is if the people spoken to have knowledge of the particular game. As such various strategies exist to minimise harm done to the game from information leaks to or from a person being shadowed. If I shadow a player. I will Not be at real time with the thread and ask questions. The beginning of a night is a better time to ask a towny mentor about what went down before the lynch. (Its also when they are more likely to have free time). Any subtle information transferred into the game by the question, at that point will tend to get diluted out of importance by the hard information from the Nks. If I delay my questions (about say a particular post from before the lynch to after the lynch, the mentor can probably still recall what they thought about it at the time (before they saw the flip) ) Shadowing scum is to me even trickier as i perceive a larger risk of the shadow aiding the scum player than a townie one. The perspective of noob/shadow player who does not have the handicap of knowing who is scum when guessing which of the scum team mates are are lynch bait, or look townie. If you were approaching endgame any independent observation of how townie anyone looked might be helpful and hence to be avoided. Thus If I am shadowing a scum player, unless I knew the entire scum team I wont shadow scum player... I wont do that as my questions as an impartial outside observer provide information about how the rest of the scum team is perceived may have value. For me one of the the tricksiest parts of playing scum was guessing what uninformed(townie) people thought of me or my scum buddies. As scum I felt I had better handle on how scummy the townies thought the other townies were than on how scummy they thought my scum buddies were. Its basically a convoluted and twisty subject, that clearly more inherently complex than Monty hall problem. As such thinking about it will improve(minimise) information leaks that occur by doing it, but also the leaks that occur via other social communications. Remembering that even severing social communications is communication, highlights just how hard sealing all the information leaks is. Getting so anal retentive about information leaks is also one of the easiest ways I can see to make this game no fun at all. The solution is balance, integrity, and gghf . I probably have comments about how I think mentoring and shadowing could be most effective, if I manage to formulate those into something useful I suspect i would start a blog page for it as they would side track or fill up the thread as they will contain AxleLogic. There were other comments about whether or not the Shadowing QT should be public. There are issues with both. if I mentored a player and explained things I might well find it useful to say things I would not state publicly. There are things I ma prepared to state to another player that i believe would be beneficial to them, but I am not prepared to state about another player. I dont think it takes a lot of imagination to think of things you might say to player that would be harmful rude and being a jerk if you said them publicly. Thus the actual definition of what is private and public might be useful. I can also imagine a time (when i am better) when there might be things i would tell a noob about how I play but would be less keen to tell a peer competitor. There is also just a distinction between my inside voice and my out in public voice. If I talk in shorthand with one person and there is misunderstanding its easy fixed. If what was initially considered to be private conversation then becomes published, all sorts of ramifications ensue. Basically I will state that unless the public versus private nature of the conversation is well defined, then any mentoring shadowing conversations I hold will be under the presumption they are public and that would significantly impede the purpose of the process. If the shadowQT is publicly published afterwards I as a shadow/noob could just as easily make a fool of myself by asking the question in /obs and getting a vet answer there. If the shadowQT is published afterwards then while a vet might explain why they really did stuff in game to me, do they really want to tell everybody... I promise I will not be telling everyone all the ways I identify scum. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
As to the above: As far as during the game, there are even tells that you can't control when it comes to communication. Do you auto-login to Skype or other messenger programs? You've potentially broadcast that you are on your computer to everyone on your friends list, some of them may even be in the game, which is something that has probably been discussed or dealt with in the past (I saw him posting in other threads, I saw him log onto Skype, I saw him commenting in an Obs QT of another game, and other various comments related to this scenario). All information is information, but not all of it can be easily interpreted and is more along the lines of speculation than actual information in my opinion. As a player I don't assume that just because someone logged into Skype it's actually them at their computer, for instance (made this mistake once and ended up talking to the wrong person on a shared device LOL) | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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warbaby
United States510 Posts
I tried to read that AxleGreaser post, but it's just not gonna happen. I think I might agree with him though? I'm surprised more people haven't been availing themselves of the shadowing program so far; it's a fun way to learn about the game  | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On March 19 2013 14:36 warbaby wrote: Shadowed Prome in LX, and Marv in Personality 2. Good fun was had, thanks Prome and Marv! I tried to read that AxleGreaser post, but it's just not gonna happen. I think I might agree with him though? I'm surprised more people haven't been availing themselves of the shadowing program so far; it's a fun way to learn about the game and me in British. Where I was actually useful. | ||
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warbaby
United States510 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On March 19 2013 22:57 marvellosity wrote: warbaby had to shadow me in my worst game of mafia ever. typical. Would you say you were a shadow of your former self perhaps? hur hur hur | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On March 20 2013 02:56 gonzaw wrote: Would you say you were a shadow of your former self perhaps? hur hur hur no u | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On March 20 2013 03:54 Caller wrote: i feel like this is a bad idea why? | ||
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