This Town Ain't Big Enough Mafia

On February 25 2013 05:05 Hapahauli wrote:


This a problem? I've never had problems being super-paranoid early days.

On February 25 2013 06:33 Hapahauli wrote:
I feel like you're treating this too much like the wild-west and not enough like a mafia game Yamato. The Duel mechanic can absolutely fuck us over if used rashly.

On February 25 2013 06:46 Hapahauli wrote:


Hence the policy I proposed earlier.

@ Marv


Can you expand on Cora?

On February 25 2013 06:46 marvellosity wrote:
It's not insanely difficult to enforce. It should be not too hard to find at least the group of people we want to lynch into, and then give a deadline/ultimatum for 2 of them to duel, or if there's 1 clear frontrunner, give a couple of people the choice of whether they want to duel with the frontrunner.

Actually the information you'll get from how people deal with this while under suspicion is probably far greater than any information you'll get from just having one clear townie dueling with someone suspicious. Whether ppl duel like they're asked, or go afk, how the suspects deal with the whole dueling situation - there's a whole mine of good shit there.

Further, I overwhelmingly back my judgement on who mafia are and are not over yours, yamato, so the last thing I need is you running off playing the hero.

On February 25 2013 06:52 Hapahauli wrote:


What in the fuck...
/wrists

First of all, the "policy" I proposed is not a deviation from common sense. If we ask a person to duel another person, and he refuses to do so, that person is suspicious as fuck and should be considered a lynch candidate.

On February 25 2013 06:59 marvellosity wrote:
Why do you think town will? As far as I can see you're the one in the thread being retarded so far, so if it does it'll be because of people like you.

Like I said, the last thing town needs is someone like you playing the hero.

On February 25 2013 07:04 marvellosity wrote:
See LIX, town did whatever I told them to because I had the right answers.

If you go into the game thinking town is going to fuck up, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't see any reason why things should 'go bad', and your attitude is unnecessarily negative.

On February 25 2013 07:04 iamperfection wrote:

meh you just haven't experienced many good towns im gonna guess

mafia will be under pressure from this setup im gonna guess since time is on our side. And looking at the player list some of the better players will likely be town so we will be able to sweat the mafia i would say

On February 25 2013 07:10 marvellosity wrote:
Being unnecessarily negative isn't realistic.

And good town != sheepfest. There are plenty of good towns, and I'll tell you for free that none of these good towns had guys in them telling the rest of town things were gonna get fucked up.

Anyway, i'm done with you for now.

On February 25 2013 07:15 Hapahauli wrote:
Yamato, I know we're not agreeing over general policy and whatnot, but just promise me that you'll atleast seek the town's input before you go "IT'S TIME TO D-D-D-D-D-DUEL!" Playing hero can end really really badly.

On February 25 2013 07:17 marvellosity wrote:
yamato, no-one's going to let the time run out at the end of the day. So you're standing up all high and mighty solving a problem that doesn't exist.

On February 25 2013 07:23 marvellosity wrote:
So you think me, hapa, acro etc. will sit here twiddling our thumbs and no-lynch??

i'm presuming the answer is no, in which case my previous post still applies.

On February 25 2013 09:20 marvellosity wrote:
hmm? you mean Acro's post?

On February 25 2013 09:31 Acrofales wrote:




This is pretty obviously NOT saying you think the policy is fine, but needs a backup plan. In fact, you call the policy bad, say there won't be discussion from it and call Hapa retarded for being in favour of the policy.

Which one is it?

On February 25 2013 09:44 cDgCorazon wrote:


Yamato is trying to change the subject and slink into the shadows.

Discuss.

On February 25 2013 09:48 Acrofales wrote:


I looked over your filter again and you never actually say that. Thanks for clearing it up. However, if Hapa's policy is bad, what is your backup plan: you say you will duel your scumread. Will players not wanting to duel themselves not influence those scumreads?

On February 25 2013 09:49 Acrofales wrote:

I disagree. Why do you think Cora is scum?

On February 25 2013 09:46 yamato77 wrote:

Notice the difference between my post and yours?

I have the balls to call you mafia, yet this is the millionth time you've insinuated that someone is scummy yet not called them scum.

On February 25 2013 10:07 marvellosity wrote:
right Adam, and it's people like you who will fuck up the game.

On February 25 2013 10:10 marvellosity wrote:


Ah yes. The legends of TL Mafia - Foolishness, syllogism, sandroba, Palmar, Adam, and yamato. My bad

On February 25 2013 10:13 cDgCorazon wrote:


Well if you're going to call me mafia (and call Marv mafia), you're going to need some sort of proof that implies that you are not jumping to conclusions.

Attacking your desired approach to the game (which is different from attacking you ) is far from proof.

If you expect me to think someone is scum based off of 1-2 posts, you are expecting way too much out of anyone here. The fact that you are trying to piggyback on momentum already started by others just because you are tired of talking about something is scummy. That doesn't make me 100% positive you are scum though.

On February 25 2013 10:33 cDgCorazon wrote:


Did you read anything besides the first line of my answer?

On February 25 2013 10:35 cDgCorazon wrote:
@Yamato


I hope you read that too.

On February 25 2013 10:39 cDgCorazon wrote:


That every post should not be saying "_____ is scum, here's why". That's not discussion, that's "Reign of Terror".

Reads change during the game. You want me to come out and say that I think you are 100% scum confirmed without any possible changes of heart later on. That is ridiculous and you know it.

On February 25 2013 10:44 cDgCorazon wrote:


I want you to not say everyone that disagrees with you is scum.

And you aren't. Savvy?

On February 25 2013 10:50 cDgCorazon wrote:


Then why, when I said that I disagreed with your desired way to play the game and that there were conflicts in your arguments, did you change the subject and put pressure on me? That's a scummy move. You tried to flip the tables and use Marv's momentum to attack me and making it look like you are scum hunting when in reality you are just pressuring me to be so good at Mafia that I have the scum team pegged down already. That is a scummy move. Do some real scumhunting.

Threatening me is not going to help disprove the "Reign of Terror" atmosphere that you are putting out here.

On February 25 2013 11:12 marvellosity wrote:


I like this. Want to say why not?

On February 25 2013 11:15 cDgCorazon wrote:


Yes I would love to know why you are "bored of me". Is it because you realize I'm right? Is this a continuation of a trend to change the subject when the pressure is on you?

On February 25 2013 07:15 Hapahauli wrote:
Yamato, I know we're not agreeing over general policy and whatnot, but just promise me that you'll atleast seek the town's input before you go "IT'S TIME TO D-D-D-D-D-DUEL!" Playing hero can end really really badly.

On February 25 2013 06:46 Hapahauli wrote:


Hence the policy I proposed earlier.

@ Marv


Can you expand on Cora?

On February 25 2013 06:57 Hapahauli wrote:
Ok this is getting nowhere.

@ Cora


Let's not start with the "woe is me" attitude. Why did people not like you in your previous games, and what are you going to do about it this game?

On February 25 2013 08:57 Hapahauli wrote:
Corazon, I get the impression that you're more concerned with calling Sylencia a dick rather than anything else. It's fine if you don't get along with him, but it does nothing for town objectives.

On February 25 2013 11:11 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Oats


Two things about this post:
1) It sounds a lot like you're jumping on Cora by taking his one statement about "rouge players" out of context. He's been pretty vocal about Yamato, and I think it's pretty clear that he links Yamato's behavior to scummy behavior.
2) That Marv read makes no sense. If you actually read his filter, I don't know how you could come to the conclusion that he's been over-polite. Example:

On February 25 2013 10:06 thrawn2112 wrote:


I'm not willing to commit to a read on cora yet. Nothing he's posted so far is all that alignment indicative, coming from him. As for yamato... maybe slighty town? I disagree with the logic behind nearly all of what he's said so far but he's acting in a townish manner.

Iamp could be scum. All he's done is drop off a town read and comment on how useless the thread is.

On February 25 2013 11:38 thrawn2112 wrote:
Yeah I think iamp's scum. I can't feel the townie thought process behind his posts and his explanations are short and dismissive.

On February 26 2013 02:58 iamperfection wrote:

He doesn't post as scum

On February 26 2013 03:01 thrawn2112 wrote:
lol so everyone is calling hapa scum but they don't want him as a potential lynch candidate?

On February 26 2013 03:07 Acrofales wrote:

Why? And why are you not answering my questions?

On February 26 2013 17:31 Adam4167 wrote:


How was this horrible?

I think hes scum, he's suspicious of me (but not directly calling me scum).

Half the town thinks hes scum, half the town has me null or worse.

It should provide a wealth of information, if not a scum death.

On February 26 2013 17:40 Adam4167 wrote:
When I put your last post alongside this quote... something doesnt add up.

On February 26 2013 17:43 Adam4167 wrote:


Yet you didn't have a problem jumping on one instantly, even after declaring that you were going to sit on it for awhile?

Yeah. OK.

On February 26 2013 16:37 Keirathi wrote:

Not necessarily to look townie later, but that he gets to use the argument "Look guys, Im town because I did something abnormal!"

The difference between you and him is that you aren't in here making that argument for yourself to buy town cred. Other people have made it for you.

If someone else had said "I think Adam is probably town because he was willing to propose his own unique idea rather than just blending into the town sentiment" I would have probably agreed with them. But for Adam himself to say it triggers my paranoia reflex.

On February 26 2013 17:46 Adam4167 wrote:


I'm not burying shit. Its right there for everyone to see.

My mafia play is lurky and passive, its right there in Hero mafia for everyone to see. If you think this is my mafia game, you're delusional.

On February 26 2013 17:51 Adam4167 wrote:


The only point in my favor is that i'm playing completely opposite to my scum meta?

MMM GEE, SOUNDS LIKE A PRETTY GOOD POINT TO HAVE IN MY FAVOR.

On February 26 2013 17:52 Oatsmaster wrote:
Wait ok yamato,
Why is adam scum, and Keir town.
GOOOOO

On February 26 2013 17:56 thrawn2112 wrote:

is this the townie response? he buddies you and puts words into adam's mouth. (afaik adam never actually directly tried using that logic to give himself townie points... there is only keir's accusation that that was what happened)

On February 26 2013 14:30 Adam4167 wrote:
Now that my internet is recovered:

I fully support this duel between Thrawn and Keirathi. Thrawn is taking ownership of his reads, something I mentioned yesterday, I respect that.

That case against me was god awful, stinks of nothing-scum-case. It does nothing to illustrate why i'm scum, only that I was using logic that shows I think i'm town and everyone else should think it too.

On February 27 2013 04:55 zarepath wrote:


Because they DON'T both look terrible. They both look suspicious, but the problem with this whole duel is the fact that nobody wanted Adam in it except for Adam, and only two people wanted Keirathi in it. This is not a town-sanctioned duel, and so the scummiest people aren't in it. If we're ever going to double-lynch, let's have it be when town has actually put its two scummiest reads up for lynch, not when bad town goes after lurker town (this seems very possible).

When people are saying that Adam looks scummier than Keirathi, it's still all relative -- I'm not convinced he's scum, let alone that they're BOTH scum.

On February 27 2013 15:25 Snarfs wrote:

...well if that's what I'm doing then what I'm doing is not what I'm trying to do -_-. I'm just trying to figure out why Corazon is voting Adam if his top scumread, Sylencia, is voting Adam in a manner that scum would be attempting to subtly kill off a townie (please note, this does not look anything like a bus). At the same time, this only makes sense if Cora truly believes that Keir is town. How can he truly believe Keir is town at this point in the game?

On February 27 2013 15:02 Snarfs wrote:
Yea, I just read over Keir and Adam's filters again and I'm even more of the opinion that people should not be voting Adam and should definitely be voting Keir. Especially if you think Sylencia is suspicious at all.

It's exactly like Dieno said. Keir has so little... conviction in anything.


It just doesn't read like he cares.

"I'm not entirely convinced Adam is scum. I would appreciate some feedback."
"I would be fine dueling you. I think you are scum."

Where's the will to actually hunt? I don't see it. Let's kill Keirathi.

P.S. Still not placing my vote, the time can only benefit town... but seriously... why are people voting Adam over this guy?

On February 27 2013 15:39 cDgCorazon wrote:


Is this to me or Snarfs?

On February 27 2013 15:44 Snarfs wrote:

You're not following me.

If I believe that Sylencia is mafia.
And I believe that Sylencia wants Adam dead.
And I DON'T believe that Sylencia is busing Adam.
-----------------------------------------------------
Then I should conclude that Adam is town.

Corazon is missing one of these. That's all I'm saying and trying to figure out why.

On February 27 2013 16:14 Snarfs wrote:

I almost decided to just leave this for the night because you seriously pissed me off with that comment. But I at least want you to convince me it's a bad case rather than just making me feel like shit T_T.

Okay. So. Where is my flawed premiss?

On February 27 2013 16:34 Snarfs wrote:

But. I'm. Not. Assuming. He's. Mafia.

I'm saying that Corazon is :S

On February 27 2013 16:56 thrawn2112 wrote:
yamato, i say if they are both town then it's a lose-lose trying to figure out which one to lynch. what you are describing is voting on a "lose-lose slightly less" scenario. I think we would have more to gain by lynching on the basis of which one is more likely to flip red. if one of them is red, voting on the basis of saving the better player is stupid.

I'd rather vote based on the 'lose-win' scenario than the 'lose-lose slightly less' scenario.

So do you have anything new to add to the keir vs adam discussion, focusing on which of them could be scum?

On February 28 2013 04:14 Acrofales wrote:

Do you think I am?

On February 28 2013 04:17 Acrofales wrote:
Hrmm, yamato, have you read the arguments? Or are you just opposed to a double lynch on general principle?

Do you have an updated opinion on Keirathi? How about Adam? Why are you voting for Adam?

On February 27 2013 11:45 Acrofales wrote:


This case doesn't convince me of Keirathi's scumminess. Partially because you are reading Keirathi's posts rather differently from the way I read them and partially because some of the things you bring up aren't scumtells.

I do not trust your judgement with regards to Keirathi at the moment, and with Dieno out of the picture for now, that leaves 0 other people you have seriously commented on. You've given brief town reads on some players, but that is about it.

I'm still trying to make up my mind what to do about you. Quite a few people have said that they think that your premature duel could be because you were a triggerhappy townie. Reading your filter again, I can see how they reach that conclusion. However, townies own up to their mistakes. It's clear you realize it was not a good move from a town point of view:


Yet we have, just half an hour earlier:


Are you maybe a 3rd party?

---

Regarding Keirathi, I'm waiting for his promised activity before I proceed on him.

On February 27 2013 22:14 Acrofales wrote:
Okay, I read through Keir's filter. Here are the three main points I find:

1. He enters the thread with a post that does absolutely nothing beside announce his presence. He is, however, not present, because his next post is > 15 hours later. At the time it got my alarm bells ringing, but unless Keir's scumplay went completely down the shitter since GSL Open, all we can conclude from that is that he made a stupid opening post and then buggered off without ever contributing.

2. His pressure on Thrawn seems quite okay. Then again, Thrawn was pretty easy pickings. What I get from GSL Open is that scum Keirathi makes sensible cases on low-hanging fruits (Risen that game, on D1, in a similar situation to Thrawn here, if I understood what I read correctly). However, he is never around to scumhunt or update his read, so I have no clue whether he is trying to actually figure thrawn out, or just push a target for the sake of pushing.

3. His Adam read is the only really novel thing he has contributed to the thread. This was after Marv and I had both said Adam seemed to be null, leaning town (at the time, don't rip this quote out of context). However, he says that this wasn't a scumread on Adam, just calling him out on something he didn't like and trying to get a discussion going. The main question is: was this just throwing out a test balloon, or was he actively trying to figure out Adam's alignment? We'll never know because the conversation was cut short and Keirathi is too inactive to tell.

As you can see, his inactivity completely prohibits me from drawing any conclusions about what he has done. However, what makes him scum is what he hasn't done.

So far the wishy washy both sides bit where I explain how his inactivity is screwing with my reads. The BEST indicator of scum Keirathi is the inactivity himself. There are 3 players who have played repeatedly with Keir: Iamp, Hapa and Marv.

Keir has played about a billion town games between GSL Open and now. I can imagine it must be really scary to be scum for the first time in ages and playing with 3 players who are very familiar with your playstyle. Intimidated, and maybe short on time, he is simply not posting his reads like he would as a townie.

I will call it the Sandroba defense, because Sandroba did the exact same thing in CT: rather than try to play the game, even when he was at risk of being lynched, he just disappeared out of the game. In that game, I wanted to give Sandroba the benefit of the doubt, because I argued inactivity, in and of itself, is not a scumtell. I was wrong. I learned my mistake. Keirathi signed up for the game, he has played plenty of games to know what is the time commitment required. He is simply not motivated to post. That makes him scum.

Kill it with fire. Kill them both with fire! Vote for the double lynch

On February 28 2013 01:44 Acrofales wrote:


Oh, dafuq. What is it with you people and your lack of reading comprehension

Adam is an evil 3P who cares jack shit about the wellbeing of this town
Keirathi is evil scum who needs to die

Both must die. I will duel the next person who asks for my reads on adam and keir, because I hereby declare a policy lynch on people not reading the thread.

On February 28 2013 04:26 Acrofales wrote:

I don't care that there's not enough proof for YOU to want them both dead. There's enough proof for ME to want them both dead, and it's my vote.

On February 28 2013 03:25 Acrofales wrote:

No I don't. We're cruising for a double lynch. I don't need to persuade anybody at the moment.

On February 28 2013 05:18 Acrofales wrote:
Cora and everybody else: at least read, and comment on:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17894996
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17895445

Before throwing your vote onto Keir. If you have questions, I am here.

On February 28 2013 20:23 Acrofales wrote:
@Hapa: I agree with some of your reads and disagree with others, when I finish filtering I will decide what that entails. However, for the moment, what is Thrawn the 3P's wincon? You can't just posit that he's a 3P because he wanted multiple people dead, out of the blue. Why does that fit with a survivor wincon? Where is the KP from an SK? You have to explain how that works, because I just don't see it.

You state that me suggesting there's a 3P in Adam is bad play or scummy: what does offputting mean in that sentence?

Yet 5 lines down you are doing it yourself for thrawn. Explain.

On March 01 2013 01:20 The Macho Man wrote:

i was completly ok with double lynch as well so i dont really see a problem

we should only worry about acro at endgame imo. He has shown no scum traits he is active he cares about the lynch that is not scummy and there is no way he should be the candidate tomorrow.

On March 01 2013 01:23 Acrofales wrote:

Oh, I really did. Toward the end there's no way I would have accepted an Adam only lynch. Keirathi only was okay, but I clearly cared enough to incessantly push for my own read, which was kill both a scum AND a third party.

On March 01 2013 01:25 Oatsmaster wrote:
This is a difference in opinion and that does not make Acro scummy in anyway.

On March 01 2013 01:34 zarepath wrote:
Who are the unreadable newbies you're discussing -- Syl and Dieno? Or are you saying that this whole game is full of unreadable newbies and therefore a waste of time or something? There's some context I'm missing.

@yamato

On March 01 2013 01:37 Oatsmaster wrote:
Yeah but Acro is not keirathi.

Do you think that dueling acro after the night is over will result in anything other than you getting insta hammered after seeing this reaction?

On March 01 2013 01:38 Alderan wrote:


It seems too obvious. Me and Acro fought about the double lynch for fucking 60 hours. Would he push that hard if he was scum?

And for clarification, my read Acro is leaning mafia, but I think Dieno is more clearly scum.

On March 01 2013 01:39 thrawn2112 wrote:
how about we all insta duel right at deadline and see who cares enough to show up ........

yamato there is no point in insta-dueling, especially considering how we have yet to hear from dieno at all

so instead of being an asshole about it you should try to convince people that acro is scum

On March 01 2013 01:41 Oatsmaster wrote:
Um I think you forgot that assuming there wasnt a majority on the duelers. THEY BOTH GET LYNCHED.
THEREFORE ACRO's SCUMREAD GETS LYNCHED.

On March 01 2013 01:41 zarepath wrote:
Honestly, Acro looks way more town for his double-lynch idea than the people who adopted his double-lynch strat -- iamp and Thrawn. Mafia must have started the day thinking they could protect Keirathi, and the least committing switch they could make would be to go to a double-lynch.

And honestly, what looks more scummy -- making a case that somebody is a 3P and therefore we should double-lynch on Day 1, or actually believing and agreeing with it with very little justification?

On March 01 2013 01:51 Acrofales wrote:

Show me one moment in this game. A single moment anywhere after D1 started where I did NOT want Keir dead.

On March 01 2013 01:54 Acrofales wrote:

This isn't an argument, it's a baseless accusation inventing bullshit to paint me as scum.

In lalaland the sheep are blue. I have therefore proven that sheep CAN be blue. Sheep MUST be blue.

It's a non-sequitur. Go fish.

On March 01 2013 04:02 Oatsmaster wrote:
We did.
It isnt enough to convince anyone but thrawn that acro is scum

On March 01 2013 04:54 Acrofales wrote:
Yamato: how about this plan. You don't duel me at dawn. You duel me at high noon (my time) [unparsable timestamp format] IF I haven't dueled someone before that time. That way you get your wish: me in a duel AND we have some time to think.

On March 01 2013 05:48 Acrofales wrote:
Not that strange. Everybody thinks he's town. He's active, and he's making sense. Not a strange kill at all.

On March 01 2013 07:35 Acrofales wrote:
You may actually be onto something with Yamato. I completely missed the post where he said he wanted Keir dead.

Yamato: why did your reads flip 180º degrees when Adam dueled Keirathi, instead of Thrawn doing it?

On March 01 2013 07:49 Hapahauli wrote:


Going page-by-page. I'll get to it when I get to it.

On March 02 2013 01:10 Oatsmaster wrote:
Yamato, actually why is Hapa scum more than before?

IMO he has only gotten townier. I would like to hear you about it though.

On February 26 2013 04:38 Snarfs wrote:

Update: Up to page 20 now and I would kill Hapa solely based on his reasoning for backing off on iamp. Didn't make any sense (others have said it) because iamp didn't change at all.

Also, I didn't like this line from thrawn:

It seems like a really weird mindset. Scared to attack... should be more like "pressure" or why would you back off... not "scared to attack" - that seems to be attempting to incite Oats as opposed to get a read on him.
full quote:

Going through last few pages now.

On February 26 2013 04:50 Snarfs wrote:
Also adding this so I don't forget later:

Right up until page 20 when a few more people showed up in the game, lots of talk was on Hapa but Corazon completely ignored that discussion and went after Oats, if I recall correctly. I'm a little rusty on how to interpret that, but it seemed noteworthy.

On February 26 2013 05:07 Snarfs wrote:

And I'm surprised that your response to me doesn't include thoughts on hapa. Please entertain me?

On February 26 2013 05:35 Snarfs wrote:

Yea, I saw that. It just felt weird when hapa was a big focus that you didn't mention him at the time (other than to say you were going to look into it) so I made a note of it.

Since marv and yamato seem pretty happy with you so far though, I'm not going to really push you on this one since it's not a big priority and would probably just derail things. As I said, just making a note of things.

On February 26 2013 07:40 Snarfs wrote:
As of now, I'd support a Keirathi/Hapa duel. I need to read more from thrawn as it's still just a weird feeling about him, nothing concrete. I haven't read yamato's case on him yet, it was a bit too long and I didn't have time.

I agree Dein also looks flimsy but these two are my biggest concerns. Especially Keirathi's "catch up on the thread" followed by essentially mimicing + buddying marv:

On February 26 2013 08:20 Snarfs wrote:

Keirathi's filter is shorter and easier to pick things out of. He made it clear he was going to look at the thread and perform analysis, but then didn't when noone pushed him for it. I guess, like marv said though, he could just be away... just the fact that he took time to create that one kinda terrible post though... I dunno, I don't like it.

It was actually thrawn's swap between thinking iamp was scum then not scum then back to scum that I kinda thought was indecisive and towny... not well thought-out and planned like I'd expect from mafia.

On February 27 2013 04:38 Snarfs wrote:
I think that people are being blinded by the unexpectedness of Adam's action (specifically Yamato and Corazon). Yes, it was rash. But it was rash for both town and scum.

Plus, look at town sentiment at the time the duel was called. At the time of his action it felt like people wanted to see Keir hang. Then, you have Keir essentially egging Adam on, by saying things like Adam would never have to prove that he was serious about dueling people.

None of this changes the fact that until Keir was called out for his terrible night 0 play, he was one of the scummiest. He had claimed he was going to catch up with the thread and all he came back with was essentially an echo of marv.

I'm sticking with my own read on this one. Adam looked like he was someone who could be egged on from his first statement and I think Keir took advantage of that.

That being said, I'm not laying my vote down right now. We need all the discussion time we can get so let's not be too quick to hit that majority.

Hold it against me though, if I come back and vote Adam without any reasoning.

On February 27 2013 04:57 Snarfs wrote:
Actually, the more I think of it, the more opposed I am. Why would we kill two people when almost assuredly one is not scum. We just need to be better town than to resort to double lynch.

On February 27 2013 15:44 Snarfs wrote:

You're not following me.

If I believe that Sylencia is mafia.
And I believe that Sylencia wants Adam dead.
And I DON'T believe that Sylencia is busing Adam.
-----------------------------------------------------
Then I should conclude that Adam is town.

Corazon is missing one of these. That's all I'm saying and trying to figure out why.

On February 27 2013 15:48 Snarfs wrote:

Go fuck your passive aggressive comments.

On February 26 2013 01:54 zarepath wrote:
Yamato's thoughts on Hapa:

Yamato's point that Hapa calls Cora out for "woe is me" is a null point at best, imo. Others (Sylencia) railed on him for it, Hapa encouraged him to play better.

However, Hapa calling out Cora for trying to be a dick to Sylencia does seem a little unnecessary... to be honest, if I were scum, I would be stoking Cora's coals all game, and I can see Hapa's interactions with Cora being somewhat like that.

However, the quote Yamato pulls where he calls out Oats for his two reads (Cora/Mav) seemed like a pretty pro-town response.

I find Thrawn's switch on iamp to be much more interesting and in a much higher need of justification. After Yamato calls him out, Thrawn doesn't continue to pursue iamp but instead switches to Acro, based off of agreeing with someone else. His points about Acro's Hapa/Thrawn dichotomy aren't strong points (as Marv pointed out).

Honestly, far scummier to me than either of these is Sylencia. While it's true our contributions are certainly in the same range right now, I wasn't here at all yesterday, while Sylencia was there right at the beginning and then disappeared. While he was there, all he did was stoke Cora's flames, speculate about a third party (because that's super helpful), and "interact" with Adam by mentioning some setup talk. It's true that others did a good amount of setup and policy talk at the beginning, but they went from there; Sylencia has disappeared and until he reappears, it looks very scummy to me in the face of what he DID contribute.

On February 26 2013 23:35 zarepath wrote:
I can't believe this happened. This seems far from the best duel we could have set up today. Thrawn switches his suspicions YET AGAIN:



And then he bounces from hapa/acro to FOR SURE wanting to duel... Keirathi? But not to the point of ACTUALLY dueling him... just to the point of asking what OTHER people think about him dueling him. And his case came down to Keirathi only having a case against Thrawn based on meta... but isn't that, like, every single person in the thread? Everyone is surprised at Thrawn's performance this game based on his meta. Why isn't Snarf's tenuous Thrawn case scummier than Keirathi's?



So why Keirathi? Why all the bravado about volunteering to be a duelist? No townie should want to be a duelist unless they feel super confident in their read -- at which point, they just ##Duel, not ask "DAE think my latest/greatest soft read is scum???"

And in the end, he doesn't even have to do it. Thrawn made out like a BANDIT with this duel.

I know I should be talking about adam/kier right now, but HOLY COW so many people got out of this one super well, including all of the lurkers/low contributors. All Sylencia has to do is vote and justify it; he doesn't have to forward unique reads on anybody but the two people. We could have spent 24 hours testing low contributors and seeing who their reads are when it has to be out of 11 other people, instead of just out of a pool of 2. Our ability to gain information has been CRIPPLED by a premature duel. We CANNOT do this again tomorrow.

Marv was killed for his analysis, and his number one scum read was Thrawn.... and he's not even up for a duel? Even Thrawn himself seemed fatalistic about it (which isn't very townie IMO), and the fact he was "rescued" from this duel super early in the day is incredibly anti-town.

On February 27 2013 01:24 zarepath wrote:
Looking through Keirathi's filter, I don't have a full town read on him, but he doesn't look nearly as scummy as Sylencia or Thrawn, and not as suspicious as Dienosore, and certainly not as counterproductive to town goals as Adam.

The problem is that only Keirathi and Adam are up for lynch, and while I think three other people are more likely to be scum than either of these two, the question now is: Who is scummier? And while most of Adam's scummy traits can also be attributed to the Insane Town persona that is chasing him, he still has far more scummy traits than Keirathi does.

If there weren't nightly scum kills, I would want to no-lynch. This is a bad pairing; the only people who wanted Keirathi in a duel were Adam and Thrawn, and the only people who wanted Adam in a duel were Adam -- and if Adam is town, then scum.

On February 28 2013 00:38 zarepath wrote:
I'm becoming more and more convinced that Adam isn't scum, mostly because I haven't yet found a satisfying answer to why Scum Adam would do what he did, unless it was to save Thrawn from having to duel, at which point the whole thing is a stupid association case. So I went into Keirathi's filter with some more open eyes.



I hate first post town claims.


Remember, thrawn wasn't on-board witht he "two scummy people duel" idea. He said making all those policies was pointless.

So thrawn, why exactly do you want Hapa to duel? Do you think he is scum, or town? What is your ideal scenario for a duel? A strong townie vs a scum suspect? Or two scum suspects against each other?

On February 26 2013 10:50 Keirathi wrote:
It wasn't a pointless question (and thrawn never answered it either). Thrawn came out and said "hey guys, forget all this policy stuff, its pointless. Just play!"

Then, despite having no other mention of Hapa, as soon as other people start talking about him, thrawn was like "oh yea, hapa should duel tomorrow!" There's not even a read in there, since he took no stance on who *SHOULD* be dueling. It was just jumping onto thread sentiment with no thoughts towards Hapa from himself.

On February 27 2013 03:58 Keirathi wrote:
I thought it was just a stupid move. Arbitrarily, I think it was scummy because he cut off all discussion about other candidates, and felt like just straight OMGUS because I was trying to get some discussion out of something I viewed as scum motivated.

Then he had the gall to say that he dueled because I was trying to back out of a half-assed scum read?

And for two, what happened to his scum read of Corazon earlier on night 0? Oh right, he backed out of it because of further discussion. Hell he even went so far as to say that he wasn't a "tunnel machine" and that he pulls out of tunnels all th e time. But if I try to get some discussion about something that I view as scummy to see if I'm just being paranoid, he gets all holy roller and pulls the trigger on the duel.

The situation reminds me a lot of GSL 3 (i think?). I saw something that I genuinely viewed as scummy and brought it to the thread. I took a lot of flak for it, but the difference is people were willing to discuss it with me while they were calling me scum. And as I talked it out more, and got some other perspective views, I changed my read.

On February 27 2013 03:48 Keirathi wrote:

My reads haven't changed. I still think thrawn is likely scum because of his jumping around following thread sentiments, and I still see possible scum motivation in the Adam thing that I was trying to talk about.

I'll write up some more later this evening when I get home, but I don't think an hour is enough time right now.

On February 26 2013 16:03 Keirathi wrote:
I'd appreciate it if someone could look at my points about Adam and give some comments other than "lol bad".

On February 26 2013 14:49 Keirathi wrote:
I would be fine dueling thrawn.

On February 26 2013 07:59 marvellosity wrote:
Acrofales - saying plenty of the right things, can't remember the various times it's happened, the most recent is questioning zare/corazon on how sylencia was mislynched for being useless last game. This dude is good mafia though which is why my read isn't stronger.

On February 27 2013 04:13 Hapahauli wrote:


Yes and yes. None of my top scumreads are on the block right now.

On February 28 2013 15:54 Hapahauli wrote:


My full proposition for tomorrow is this:
I'd like Dieno and Sylencia to duel, unless one of them starts showing some significant townieness. I'd also like to double-lynch 'em by default and leave it up to them to prove that they're town individually. If one of them does, I'd add Corazon to the list.

As for HOW we should go about that, well you can only start by asking nicely. If that doesn't work, we can probably force one of them to duel the other by threatening to have Adam duel one of them (which is basically a vigi-shot given that there's no sane way that Adam's scum).

As for who I'd duel myself, I wouldn't duel period. I think my voting actions speak for themselves yesterday. I get that I'm less active than usual, but it should be obvious that I'm playing to town objectives. Nor do I get the sense that there's any support for me dueling tomorrow (besides iamp anyway).

If you're asking for a top scumread - it's hard to differentiate between Dieno/Sylencia since they've both played nearly identical games. Put a gun to my head, and I'd say Dieno on the basis that Sylencia has a history of being lurky as town in some of his newbie games, whereas Dieno's town performance in CT was pretty darn active.

On March 01 2013 09:29 Hapahauli wrote:
Oh Dieno pulled the trigger. That went easier than expected.

Anyway, by default I want you both dead. It's up to both of you to indvidiaully convince me that I'm wrong and that you're town.

On March 01 2013 14:36 Hapahauli wrote:


Dieno. Pretty sure I mentioned that before.

On March 03 2013 08:26 Hapahauli wrote:
Anyway Yamato, this whole "HAPA IS MAFIA OMG" is nearly identical to the shit you pulled in British Mini Mafia.

You were Mafia, and suddenly a switch snapped and you were foaming out of the mouth that Mr.Cheesecake was scum beyond all rationality.

On March 04 2013 03:29 Adam4167 wrote:
##Vote: Yamato

Yamato is scum for reasons previously discussed.

Hapa is town for reasons previously discussed.

On March 04 2013 04:28 cDgCorazon wrote:
@Yamato:

Explain:
-Your 180 on Acro
-Your unnecessarily long town read on Snarfs (basically, did you need to do that?)
-Your ambiguous read on Zare (is he scummy or not?)
-Your feeling to just duel Hapa without allowing him to refute your arguments.

Please and thank you.

On March 03 2013 18:44 yamato77 wrote:
##Duel Haphauli

He and Zare probably last two mafia. Everyone else is LIKELY to be town.

On March 04 2013 12:34 Hapahauli wrote:
I had a scum-read on you before you dueled me Yamato. Don't twist things.

On March 04 2013 12:43 Acrofales wrote:
Yamato: if we lynch Hapa and he flips town. Who, other than Zapa is scum?

On March 04 2013 12:52 cDgCorazon wrote:


You're the one who was so hasty to duel him. You'd be the first one to deserve a look.

Of course if you are so confident Hapa is scum why are you even mentioning the possibilities if he flips town?

Are you setting yourself up to bounce back from a mislynch?

On February 26 2013 23:53 zarepath wrote:
During those 12-16 hours, everyone on the western hemisphere was asleep. Do we really want the most important period of mafia to be done while only half of the town is awake, and not even allow the other half a say?

As far as between these two players, I think Adam's ##Duel is the most anti-town thing either of them have done. But I honestly haven't even looked through their filters yet; I just read through the thread, was amazed that this even happened, and went on a rant.

So I'll get back to you on that, but I really don't like what Adam did.

On February 27 2013 01:24 zarepath wrote:
Looking through Keirathi's filter, I don't have a full town read on him, but he doesn't look nearly as scummy as Sylencia or Thrawn, and not as suspicious as Dienosore, and certainly not as counterproductive to town goals as Adam.

The problem is that only Keirathi and Adam are up for lynch, and while I think three other people are more likely to be scum than either of these two, the question now is: Who is scummier? And while most of Adam's scummy traits can also be attributed to the Insane Town persona that is chasing him, he still has far more scummy traits than Keirathi does.

If there weren't nightly scum kills, I would want to no-lynch. This is a bad pairing; the only people who wanted Keirathi in a duel were Adam and Thrawn, and the only people who wanted Adam in a duel were Adam -- and if Adam is town, then scum.

On February 27 2013 12:03 zarepath wrote:
@Thrawn:

It's pretty clear why I didn't vote for Adam -- I explain it right at the end of my post. Because this format works off instant majority and not a time frame, there is no way to unvote out of a majority should something big come up that shakes everything up. I would rather wait for everyone to chime in before I place my actual vote, because if I contribute to an instant majority, I basically let half of town get out of this entire cycle without having to make a stake on anything.

So yes, my vote will be on Adam, but not yet.

On February 25 2013 10:10 marvellosity wrote:


Ah yes. The legends of TL Mafia - Foolishness, syllogism, sandroba, Palmar, Adam, and yamato. My bad

On March 06 2013 00:36 zarepath wrote:
EBWOP: Also, I thought Acro looked super townie to you yesterday. What changed your mind to put him in the pool of possibilities?

On March 06 2013 00:52 Acrofales wrote:


I'll make it easier.

Zare

I'll filter him and give you a case when I get home, but I have fairly strong reasons for pretty much everybody else being town, and fairly strong reasons for Zapa being scum. Combine the two and the conclusion is pretty obvious.

On March 04 2013 16:34 yamato77 wrote:
Think about this possiblity:

Acro is town.

I am town.

I thought Acro was mafia, and was mildly suspicious of him for a while.

You dueled someone out of the fucking blue day 1, cutting off all discussion of anyone but you and Keir, who I initially had right. I thought you were mafia mucking up the thread with an easy, quick duel because it seemed premature, BUT I REALIZED I WAS WRONG, AND LYNCHED MAFIA.

I thought Acro might be mafia again, for some very good reasons. I didn't duel him because of the overwhelmingly NEGATIVE response to this idea. Plus, I really did take my time to consider that Dieno might be mafia, and became relatively convinced after rereading Parallel. Again, I REALIZED I WAS WRONG, AND LYNCHED MAFIA.

Come to today. I think Acro being town is MORE likely because of his push toward Dieno, and the fact that Hapa looks like lazy fucking scum. I REALIZED I WAS WRONG, AND AM GOING TO LYNCH MAFIA.

See a pattern here? When I rethink the situation, things become much more clear. You should take a page from my book and consider the game from a different perspective than Acro = mafia.