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On March 04 2013 11:34 Adam4167 wrote:
This bus would blow Hero mafia's bus out of the fucking water it would be so epic.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see that coming from the guy that claimed godfather in nested spoilers..... (no offense Hapa)
So, lets stop on Hapa for a sec. My reasons for Hapa being scum are inspired by my efforts to make a conclusive case on Yamato. His play is just way more illogical than Hapa's for scum.
Also, if you want to talk about illogical busses: Yamato flipped his reads 180º to vote for Adam in a fit of anger. Then 24 (or so) hours later, he is on the Keirathi train. If there was 1 person in the thread at that time who could jump on the double lynch with no negative consequences, it was Yamato. Yet he flipped 180º back to Keirathi instead. If you want to make the no-double-lynch-bus an issue, Yamato's makes less sense.
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What was clear about it? Syl was AFK with no guarantees of returning and Dieno was scum. Iamp and thrawn were on the double-lynch train with me. So if Yamato was scum he only had to worry about Dieno... and if he was worried about Dieno's vote ending on the wrong candidate, his voteswitch came at a terrible time anyway.
What was clear is that Adam was not going to get lynched alone. Other than that, it was Yamato who stopped the double-lynch (with Cora).
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Momentum HAD swung wildly to Kei: there was no way Adam was going to get single-lynched, but at that point, if Yamato was scum they had 2 of the 4 possible swing votes. All they needed to do was rally behind a group of townies (Iamp, thrawn and me).
Alternatively, Yamato could choose to stay put on Adam and be a stubborn dick about it. Dieno could go double-lynching. They just had to bet on Syl staying AFK or sticking with his Adam read. They could clearly trust me to keep rallying the double-lynch troops. Yamato could have kicked up a fuss to lynch Adam.
Yet.. he didn't, and caused what was clearly a bad lynch for scum to happen easily.
The difference between Yamato and your position on double-lynching is that you were on Keir and had said you had 2 town reads. Yamato had given a scumread on Keir, then a scumread on Adam. He eventually flipped to a townread on Adam and a slightly-less-town-read on Keir. And all of that just so he could NOT push the mafia agenda.
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Yamato: if we lynch Hapa and he flips town. Who, other than Zapa is scum?
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On March 04 2013 20:42 Oatsmaster wrote:
##Vote: Yamato.
Lets give him his wish and lynch him.
This is pathetic.
Have you read the arguments of the last 5 pages or so? Give us your analysis.
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Hapa, you know Oats fairly well, right? If you're town, I value your opinion. Give us your opinion on Oats' play. You apparently have a town read on him. So did I, but his most recent behaviour seems so apathetic and useless that I am having doubts.
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Also, where has Sylencia gone skulking off to again? His last post was 30 hours ago and it was a continuation of the Syl<->Cora tunnelfest united. Does anybody have any idea what he even thinks of Yamato or Hapa? I don't.
Alderan and Zapa said they'd be afk. But weekend is over, so I expect them back too (although it's still early in the US).
I'd also like Snarfs' view. Basically wayyyy too many people are either away or really don't give a shit about this lynch.
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On March 04 2013 22:01 Oatsmaster wrote:
Yeah Yamato is defending himself as hard as he can.
Still doesnt tell me why Hapa is scum.
Hapa's vote on Keir at the start of Adam's duel makes absolutely no sense as scum. Why would you try to stop the quickly forming mislynch?
Also Yamato hard pushed you n2/3 and seems to think you are confirmed town now.
Why? I dont know.
He keeps harping on the fact that his meta is different from the last scum game he played.
Tell me why Hapa isn't scum.
My problem isn't that I think Hapa is scum insomuch as I think that Yamato isn't.
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What I mean with that, is that I cannot reconcile Yamato's play with a scum mindset. I *can* imagine Hapa being scum.
Show me why I shouldn't be able to and we just raise the bar for both of them.
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Yeah, it's the bigger picture on Yamato that I can't see as scum. He is hyperactive, picking sensible fights and backing down from them when it is no longer useful and seeming to analyse the game. I don't feel Yamato is capable of faking these things as scum, and his single scumgame ever seems to back that up.
What is it in Hapa's play that you don't think scum Hapa is capable of faking?
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First and foremost:
Yamato vs. Acro vs. Dieno. In D2 Yamato gets his tunnel on and comes after me. However, even when he's calling me scum and is willing to duel me at dawn, he is listening to what I am saying. Why on earth would scum bother giving credence to what his "scumread" is saying about his scumbuddy instead of just continuing to nail me to the cross? At the time it seemed weird, but the more I think about it, the less reason I can see for doing this. Why not just yell louder? He could just say "I am not listening to you, you scummy bastard" and keep flooding the thread with his cases on me. Instead he does a double-take, looks at Dieno's filter and agrees that his buddy is scum. There is NO scum reasoning where this makes sense.
However, my D1 read also plays a role in my town read of Yamato:
1. Yamato vs. Marv's policy. You can say that Yamato's ideas weren't sensible, but his fight was. He picked a fight with the single-most respected player in this game to argue about policy. This whole exchange screamed townie. Then when I entered the fray he got back into the brawl, but doesn't want to continue brawling for the sake of brawling. He had made his points on policy and was calling it a day without backing down from a viewpoint that Marv, Hapa and Acro all criticized.
On February 25 2013 09:41 yamato77 wrote:
I'm done talking about this stupid fucking setup shit. I'm lynching mafia, even if town fucks off. That's the gist of my posting. If you don't like it, I really don't care anymore.
Sure, there were some further questions that got answered, but by and large, this was the end of the policy discussion. It's hard to see how scum would first pick a fight with Marv (and later Hapa and myself) and then once it is steaming along nicely and aiming the thread at nowhere-near-scumhunting, call it to an end, because it is a pointless discussion.
2. Yamato vs. Cora. I suggest you reread this bit of the thread on pages 11-13. The argument is stupid, but it 100% reads like two stupid townies being stupid at each other.
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On March 05 2013 00:34 zarepath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 09:35 Acrofales wrote:
So yeah. I think the scum is Yamato+Zapa... with a stronger read on Zapa than on Yamato.
Beer is happening after all. I'm in Brazil and everything just gets delayed. Then why are you voting for Hapa instead of Yamato?
Thank god you're quoting me from before I spent all of sunday reading their filters and the game about 3 times. How long is it going to take you to catch up on those last 10 pages of the thread?
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Sheer activity level alone should tell you something is off with Hapa. Hapa said that he sat on the backburner in Hero, right? He didn't take a leading role and he got lynched for it. He still had a 19-page filter. The game was only 1 1/2 times longer than we're up to so far. And that's a game he did not take a "leading" role, because he got totally manipulated by scum marv.
British Empire: town survived til endgame. 19-page filter and he was killed N2
Witchcraft: a 33-page filter. 33!!!
CT is the only town game I can find where the percentage of his contributions to the thread are so low. And that was a pretty funky game and Hapa seemed a bit lost in it at the time (he was cleared from being scum due to weird mechanics not adding up and pretty much all the scum in the game making a case on him and wanting him dead, if I recall correctly, it's a 400-page game, so you'll have to forgive me for being a bit hazy on the details).
I could continue. Other town games from Hapa: GSL Mini he has 11 pages in a 60-page game, LVII 11 pages when he was killed on N2.
I think you get the gist. His town meta is to be active and take point. Question people and figure the game out. His reads may not always be stellar, but he puts them out there and is actively trying to figure the game out.
Now his scumplay:
Dessert Mini: 8 pages in a 115-page game.
Newbie XXI: 7 pages in a 60-page game.
Liquid City: 5 pages in a 185-page game (he was lynched D5)
Only Mario Mini really approaches his town activity level: 7 pages when he was lynched D1.
I think I can say we have a pattern. There are some exceptions, but Hapa as town is very active and taking point on issues. He argues about them a lot and that fills up his filter. This game, Hapa has not done ANY of that. He is letting things happen to him. And yes, the Keirathi lynch was a shrewd bus.
Also, do you really want to be voting alongside Zapa on this one?
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On March 05 2013 01:53 Oatsmaster wrote:
Why is it scummy?
Ive done it as town, never done at as scum cause it looks bad.
To be fair, you've played 2 scumgames and were caught D1 in both of them. Just took a while for the thread to catch up on lynching you in LIX due to mechanics. So saying what you do as scum is not exactly a good role model for what good scumplayers do 
Changing your mind can be townie. However, townies change their mind for a reason. Hapa had the whole town all over him for a reason D1: his 180º switch on Iamp made no sense. He just picked out a random post that had the same general mindset as Iamp had been displaying in all his posts and said "yeah, whoops, you're town" when he got under pressure from Marv and me to explain his read.
Thrawn is a bit more complicated. His read has gone all over the map:
Thrawn scum
Thrawn 3P
Thrawn scum
Thrawn town
In particular that third one makes no sense and made alarmbells go off in my head. Thrawn had bussed and been counterbussed by Keirathi. Hapa had then decided he was 3P because he couldn't be scum. Suddenly he drops the "can't be scum" argument to paint thrawn scum over something where he basically twisted thrawn's words and his stance on the lynch.
The final "thrawn is town" read was completely nonsensical. However, it may well have come when the scumteam had decided to kill thrawn that night. No point in looking so totally wrong. Better to get some easy credit for your reads. Throw the towel in the ring. However, instead of reverting back to the obvious reasons that thrawn was town (Keirathi deal), he comes up with some nonsense excuse.
Neither of these flops were properly explained at all.
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On March 05 2013 02:07 Oatsmaster wrote:
##Vote: Hapahauli
You know what this means Acro? That if Hapa flips town you are scum, with a high probability.
[/b][/b]
I'll take the flak for my read.
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On March 05 2013 02:10 zarepath wrote:
I honestly don't know how important post count is for meta reads; I've mostly played in newbies and there's not really a meta worth looking at there. But Acro, is meta your only argument here?
And you shouldn't argue for/against arguments based on who agrees with them, but based on their own merits. The fact I am arguing for something hardly means that it's necessarily false.
No. There's also the scum by elimination argument. I have stronger town reads on everybody else.
Adam: don't even bother contemplating.
Cora: keeps getting into townie arguments with people.
Snarfs: yes, he's low post-count, but his posts are making sense and he is a positive force in the thread.
Oats: I keep having suspicions pop up, but his play does not make sense as scum.
Alderan: his absence is not doing him any favours, but the Dieno flip makes him very unlikely scum.
Syl: lurks, but was Dieno really busing him? I still don't think so.
Zapa: scum.
That leaves Yamato and Hapa. Yamato is town for the reasons I've layed out earlier, which leaves Hapa as scum. Meta just corroborates that.
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On March 05 2013 06:56 Adam4167 wrote:
Can one of you Hapa voters unvote and give me some time to reread.
##unvote
This is not me changing my vote. This is just me ensuring Adam has time to read the thread and make sense of what is happening. I am voting Hapa and will be voting Hapa.
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@Adam: at the time that thing went down, Keirathi was active in the thread and you had not yet posted your townie list of reads. Hapa would have a hard time going back on his town read of you right then, but if you were to do more stupid stuff and Keir kept up his activity level, he might have been able to flop. There was hope that he could be "convinced" to switch to you. It was his escape route.
Anyway, here's the evolution of his Kei read:
On February 26 2013 08:23 Hapahauli wrote:
So my preferred duel right now is two of the Dieno/Snarfs/Thrawn.
A lot of people think Kei is scum, but I'm pretty firmly null on him. He played a hell of a scum-game in GSL I Mini, and I'm chalking his absence up to business rather than something sinister. The inactivity is unusual for his town OR scum games, and I can't draw any conclusions from it.
Fair enough: absent != scum is a good point. He repeats this point a few minutes later.
Then the duel happens, and Keir responds:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 27 2013 00:32 Hapahauli wrote:Mornin' all. Have a busy day in school today, but I'll be checking in-and-out of the thread today. Will have some free time tonight thankfully. Woah did not expect that. First things first: 1) I'd prefer not to double-lynch. Forcing people to take sides is in our best interest information-wise. Deciding on a double-lynch right now is a cop-out. 2) Adam's duel doesn't look that bad to me. Consider his opening post: Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 10:06 Adam4167 wrote:
This started 30 minutes after i went to bed, bleh =(
I agree with Yamato, If i see scum, i'll make my case and duel them.
Forcing two other people to duel at your behest is weak - man up, take responsibility for your reads.
Dieno, your opening post was quite bad. You seem to be trying to make friends with and please everyone, while saying absolutely nothing of value. Step it up or get dueled tomorrow.
He thought Kei was scum, and dueled him. I think his decision was stupid, but it's consistent with how he approached the game.
If I had to pick one, I'd lynch Kei right now. Kei hasn't done anything to prove to me that he's town. He's lurked a lot, and his case on Adam wasn't very strong. Adam has approached this game with a lot more bravado than I'd expect from his scum persona. ##Vote Keirathi
Honestly, I don't see how you can read this as a forceful post in favour of lynching Keirathi. The forceful "Adam must be town" stuff comes later. This post, however, is about the opposite of forceful. It is a continuation of a very careful stance on Keirathi, but now combined with a "I don't understand how a scum would do this"-read on Adam. While this conclusion seems correct, it takes a remarkable cool to reach that conclusion immediately. It's quite a bit easier to reach if you already know the conclusion and just have to fill in the reasoning.
On February 27 2013 04:25 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 04:11 Keirathi wrote:On February 27 2013 04:01 Hapahauli wrote:On February 27 2013 03:52 Acrofales wrote:On February 27 2013 03:50 Hapahauli wrote:On February 27 2013 03:47 Acrofales wrote:On February 27 2013 03:43 Hapahauli wrote:On February 27 2013 02:51 Acrofales wrote:On February 27 2013 02:42 Hapahauli wrote:Oh damnit sniped by Oats. On February 27 2013 02:37 Oatsmaster wrote:
[quote]
Wait what? How many games have you played with Kei?
You are calling Keirathi scummy for not playing to his town meta or his scum meta, but Adam is not scum because he isnt playing to his scum meta, or his town meta as Acro showed.
How did you get this reasoning? I've played a couple of games with Kei, and heavily obs'd some more games that he was in. And you're completely twisting my argument. Yes Kei is playing differently than I've seen him play as both alignments in the past. However, I'm voting Kei right now because Adam's actions make very little sense from a scum-Adam perspective (given meta, demeanor, bravery, etc), and Kei has given me no reason to think he's town. If you take Adam's meta, demeanor and bravery into account, how can you ignore his town meta? He has never done anything remotely like pulling a stunt like this. Not in CT, not in WLIIA and not in LIX. The other games I recall from him are Hero where he was scum and a couple of games where he was modkilled for inactivity. Please explain how meticulous Adam, who writes cautious cases deliberating different angles, suddenly throws caution to the wind and says "FUCK YOU, I'M PALMAR BITCHES". What part of Adam's town meta am I missing? But that's the thing - have you ever seen ANYTHING like this from scum Adam? No. It's at odds with his town mentality yes. However, it's even MORE at odds with his scum mentality. Why is Keir being a lurker, something Keir clearly knows is a stupid scumtell, still a scumtell? It is clearly at odds with both of his metas and you seem to think scum is more careful to not stand out like a sore thumb. Thing is, I don't think Kei is intentionally lurking or anything. A lot of his posts have suggested he's busy with work/whatever. His lurking doesn't seem intentional, thus the situation is very different from Adam's intentional DERP duel. So if Keir isn't intentionally lurking what do you find suspicious about his behaviour? Firstly, a major reason I'm voting Kei is because I'm pretty sure Adam is town. As for Kei himself, he hasn't given me any reason to think he's town at all. That and I didn't like his early interactions with Adam. His initial case made no sense to me, and Kei's constantly qualifying that he's not committing to his suspicions: Nothing else. I'm not entirely convinced Adam is scum, but I wanted some comments on it. I'd appreciate it if someone could look at my points about Adam and give some comments other than "lol bad". Tell me why. Maybe I'm just paranoid. I mean, at least he did take some kind of stance, and he's right, it was against the grain and I would normally give a few townie points for that. I'm just failing to see how, in this particular instance, his stance is beneficial to town, because I can't really predict any scenario in which he'll have to back it up. AFAIK, i never said "Okay guys, Adam 100% scum lets lynch him". I saw something, and mentioned it to the thread to get some feedback. Maybe my original post wasn't full fleshed out, but it made sense as I talked it out more, no? How does that make me scum? My point didn't change, I just explained it better. And so what, I was being non-committal towards the read. I demonstrably do that as town on day 1. What makes me scum this time, but not the others? Thing is Kei, you've done barely anything this game. Does the above make you 100% scum? No, but it's a point against you. At this point, I just need to see some activity/scum-hunting from you. If you're town, you have to prove it.
Translation: Keir, please give me a reason to stop bussing you.
After this point, he flops around a bit between being "very comfortable with his vote on Keir" and being cautiously null on Keir.
What in this vote is forceful? The ONLY thing Keir is forceful on is that he doesn't want a double-lynch and his earlier town read on you had pretty much closed the possibility on double-lynching.
Hapa left the door open to flop reads until after the thread momentum had clearly swung to lynching Keir.
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EBWOP: The ONLY thing Hapa is forceful on...
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On March 05 2013 08:05 Adam4167 wrote:
In regards to those 180's, I've done them before as town. Heck, I did it with you this game. I thought 'this guy has potential to be scum, wonder what happens if i poke him', then you get an answer so far from what you were expecting that you instantly bin your read on them. This happens even more often with people you play with frequently, as Hapa, Iamp and Thrawn do.
180's without justification draw attention, just as you're proving. Unless Hapa is trying to double-fake out, a scum hapa would be more likely to back out of his read by actually putting some shitty justifications in there for his 180, like Yamato's back flip on me.
As to those quotes:
The first quote, thrawns, specifically says "kill Yamato first".
Marvs reads are horrendously outdated at this point, having not been around for a single duel. I still really respect his input, and have referenced his reads several times, but Marv also had Thrawn as "kill it with fire", only for him to flip town.
Iamp, well, he tried to get me killed also, so I know some of his reads are off the mark as well.
But there was a justification. It was just a completely stupid justification. On both Iamp and on thrawn. Snarfs put it very succinctly at the time for his switch on Iamp.
Yamato's flip can be completely explained by RAAAAAAAGE. I felt the exact same. I had a town read on you for you N1 play and then you dueled, which I felt was an incredibly anti-town move at the time. Immediate conclusion: who does anti-town shit? Anti-town people. Conclusion: Adam is scum! And then when my scumread on Keir became more conclusive, I upgraded that to 3P, because you had completely destroyed any trust I had in you.
If you read Yamato's posts at the time, they radiate this exact same thought process.
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EPT
