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@Hapa
Some questions regarding this post I recall from your filter.
On December 21 2012 05:09 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 05:01 Djodref wrote:Because of your attitude towards VE fakeclaim and jay during VE lynch.
On December 18 2012 07:38 Hapahauli wrote:
interesting. I'll have to think about whether it's true or not. If no one counterclaims, I could get behind a Jay lynch. His tunnel on Djo felt really forced all through today. I'm ready to trust VE and lynch Jay. On December 18 2012 08:08 Hapahauli wrote:On December 18 2012 08:05 thrawn2112 wrote:
i dont like ve's claim, it seems too easy to pull off Well it is rather risky given he's one counter-claim away from an insta-lynch. I wouldn't dismiss his claim as an outright lie until I see some more from him. I'm really ready to trust VE, I'm just waiting so I can see what you guys decide On December 18 2012 08:15 Hapahauli wrote:On December 18 2012 08:11 thrawn2112 wrote:On December 18 2012 08:08 Hapahauli wrote:On December 18 2012 08:05 thrawn2112 wrote:
i dont like ve's claim, it seems too easy to pull off Well it is rather risky given he's one counter-claim away from an insta-lynch. I wouldn't dismiss his claim as an outright lie until I see some more from him. scum already tried to claim vigi This is true. Also Djo brought up the point that VE never attempted to defend him (Djo) the entire day. I'm not sure if that's due to VE being afk or just lurking though. I really would like to believe this guy On December 18 2012 09:38 Hapahauli wrote:
I can't figure out a player that I'd feel comfortable switching onto.
Jay's reactions so far don't seem scummy. He's setting himself up to draw alot of attention to himself regardless of how VE flips. Even Z-Bo seems alright.
...and who else? Bluelightz? Seems like a coin-flip. Ok, look ! jay is pants on head. I don't want to lynch him anymore. He is going to look good when VE is gonna flip (red)
I'm sorry if you are town, but this is how I interpret your posts at that time... Yeah so what? Quote #1: I'm clearly expressing reservations, and I'm not committed to either side. Also... I want to lynch... Jay? How does that make sense from a mafia perspective? Quote #2: I'm clearly not ready to trust VE as you claim. I said I'm not dismissing the claim, not that I want to trust him. Again, it's stupid in such a volatile spot to turn the blinders on in either way, and I'll be damned if you tunnel suspicion on me for having the correct attitude as a townie here. Quote #3: How in the fuck is that "I want to believe VE?" That's me expressing some very clear reservations about VE. Quote #4: Jay is "pants on head" - yes that's exactly what I thought at the time until looking through VE's filter (particularly his last scum-list post) showed me otherwise. What about my attitude there was unreasonable? Hell I took an opinion directly against everyone in the thread for what reason exactly?
On #1, why is lynching jay nonsensical from a mafia perspective? I mean, sure, we all thought he was scum at the time, but regardless, I don't see what you mean there. Being a bus or being a mislynch, why did you reason it didn't make sense at that time?
On #4, what exactly in VE's scumlist post made you think otherwise regarding jay's pants-on-head read? I remember you saying how jay was super-cordial with someone trying to lynch him or something like that, but can you be more specific on this?
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Sons of Honesty! Of Justice! My brothers! I see in your eyes the same quiescence that would take the game of me! A day may come when the activity of town fails, when we forsake our responsibilities and break all bonds of communcation. But it is not this day. A cycle of lies and deceiving scums when the age of Truth comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we post! By all that you hold dear on this good forum, I bid you post! Heroes of the Town!
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Tomorrow is my last day on a computer, so yea be active dudes :D
I hope to find scum until then with a winning post of GG.
Marv is someone that needs to be looked at today.
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Hapa, I'm still waiting for you to answer me
Djo, just so I know, are you even going to be reading the thread, will you be able to vote?
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Can you read?
Oh sure Hapa, no problem! Here is what I was referring to!
On December 22 2012 08:29 Z-BosoN wrote:@HapaSome questions regarding this post I recall from your filter. Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 05:09 Hapahauli wrote:On December 21 2012 05:01 Djodref wrote:Because of your attitude towards VE fakeclaim and jay during VE lynch.
On December 18 2012 07:38 Hapahauli wrote:
interesting. I'll have to think about whether it's true or not. If no one counterclaims, I could get behind a Jay lynch. His tunnel on Djo felt really forced all through today. I'm ready to trust VE and lynch Jay. On December 18 2012 08:08 Hapahauli wrote:On December 18 2012 08:05 thrawn2112 wrote:
i dont like ve's claim, it seems too easy to pull off Well it is rather risky given he's one counter-claim away from an insta-lynch. I wouldn't dismiss his claim as an outright lie until I see some more from him. I'm really ready to trust VE, I'm just waiting so I can see what you guys decide On December 18 2012 08:15 Hapahauli wrote:On December 18 2012 08:11 thrawn2112 wrote:On December 18 2012 08:08 Hapahauli wrote:On December 18 2012 08:05 thrawn2112 wrote:
i dont like ve's claim, it seems too easy to pull off Well it is rather risky given he's one counter-claim away from an insta-lynch. I wouldn't dismiss his claim as an outright lie until I see some more from him. scum already tried to claim vigi This is true. Also Djo brought up the point that VE never attempted to defend him (Djo) the entire day. I'm not sure if that's due to VE being afk or just lurking though. I really would like to believe this guy On December 18 2012 09:38 Hapahauli wrote:
I can't figure out a player that I'd feel comfortable switching onto.
Jay's reactions so far don't seem scummy. He's setting himself up to draw alot of attention to himself regardless of how VE flips. Even Z-Bo seems alright.
...and who else? Bluelightz? Seems like a coin-flip. Ok, look ! jay is pants on head. I don't want to lynch him anymore. He is going to look good when VE is gonna flip (red)
I'm sorry if you are town, but this is how I interpret your posts at that time... Yeah so what? Quote #1: I'm clearly expressing reservations, and I'm not committed to either side. Also... I want to lynch... Jay? How does that make sense from a mafia perspective? Quote #2: I'm clearly not ready to trust VE as you claim. I said I'm not dismissing the claim, not that I want to trust him. Again, it's stupid in such a volatile spot to turn the blinders on in either way, and I'll be damned if you tunnel suspicion on me for having the correct attitude as a townie here. Quote #3: How in the fuck is that "I want to believe VE?" That's me expressing some very clear reservations about VE. Quote #4: Jay is "pants on head" - yes that's exactly what I thought at the time until looking through VE's filter (particularly his last scum-list post) showed me otherwise. What about my attitude there was unreasonable? Hell I took an opinion directly against everyone in the thread for what reason exactly? On #1, why is lynching jay nonsensical from a mafia perspective? I mean, sure, we all thought he was scum at the time, but regardless, I don't see what you mean there. Being a bus or being a mislynch, why did you reason it didn't make sense at that time? On #4, what exactly in VE's scumlist post made you think otherwise regarding jay's pants-on-head read? I remember you saying how jay was super-cordial with someone trying to lynch him or something like that, but can you be more specific on this?
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Ok, so in #1 it's because it'd be stupid for you to bus. Ok.
In #4, I'm interested in the passage you are referring to here:
VE was super-cordial with Jay's attempts to save him. Jay is far too trusting of a guy who was trying to get him lynched.
Where was VE super-cordial?
I just want to know this part and try to work out your logic.
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I'm here, reading some filters.
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Z-BosoN's Comprehensive Guide to Murdering Scum
A townie's guide to victory
Part I
Ok, I've read enough so I feel comfortable with the game.
First of all, Hapahauli is very likely to be scum. Everything in his play points towards this direction.
I am not going to waste time depicting how inactive and not present he is, because that's justified with RL stuff (which he has insistent on saying all game) and is consistent with how his meta is different in both his scum and town alignments.
I will focus on how he's changing some of his reads and opinions to suit mafia-related goals.
1.) Hapa's town reads
This is a rather strong point for me. Normally I agree with his town-reads, it is one aspect I find rather strong in his play. This game it is very different. I remember at a point in the game, most of his townreads were scumreads to me. Of course this is extremely irrelevant if not properly discussed, so here are some examples of townreads he has that come off as weird. This first block is just shit I disagree with, but aren't necessarily scummy. This, for me, has a certain strength because like I said earlier, I usually feel comfortable with his town reads, something which hasn't happened this game.
meh reads
Djo - His first real townread and one he's had all game. He claims Djo to be town because of his "tryhardness" or something of the like, but mostly ignores the crazy shitton of scummy stuff there is in Djo's filter, such as lying, being inconsistent, etc. etc. There's still room for it being a legit town read here, but this is diminished in context with how he ignored Palmar's views on him. I'll go more on that later.
Palmar - Says Palmar is town because he made no attempt to go for someone other than Adam. Meh. I disagree that would be enough for someone like Palmar but let's leave it at that.
Vivax - Made quite a fair townread on him, but when I attempted to discuss it at a time when Vivax was doing some suspicious stuff, he pretty much didn't dwelve too much into it, but I think I had a made a fair point, in this post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=98#1948
Not gonna make this a sticking point because this might go into Hapa not being all that attentive this game or whatever.
the fuck? reads
Now comes the town reads that really mess things up and that I would judge to be the stronger part of this section. They start off as town reads but later conveniently turn into scum ones. This transition is what gets to me and is the highlight of this part.
Tunkeg - Hapa's reaction to Tunkeg's post, initially, is the following:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=52#1021
Tunkeg - Another wishy-washy player from what I've seen of his meta. I do like his "martyr" post quite a bit, because based on his general "mentality" as a player, I feel it's not a type of post that a player like him would make as a scum. Though I haven't seen a scum-game that he's played, which is why I'm a bit more hesitant. Maybe slightly townie, but nothing like the guys above.
Tunkeg had also found this weird earlier when Hapa mentioned it:
On December 12 2012 17:35 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:32 Tunkeg wrote:
WTF do you know about my meta? Have me and you ever played a game? Have you read through my games after being replaced in (while you just now have been able to read up on this game)? Also you say my meta is wishy washy, lol. Are you sure you haven't skimmed through the scum QT and have misunderstood what they wrote about my meta? Yes I skimmed a couple of your games. Whaddya think I"ve been doing for the last few hours?
He likes the martyr post, despite disagreeing with some of the reads Tunkeg has made, something into which he admits later on. Very weird:
On December 12 2012 18:04 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:59 Tunkeg wrote:On December 12 2012 17:45 Hapahauli wrote:
But thrawn and/or Tunkeg - some feedback on my read-dump would be appreciated. TBH I don't care to much about your reads. When I am assessing you your reads will be part of my assessment. But for now your reads are your reads, I agree on some of them (obviously) and some I don't. But I can tell you this much, I like that you posted some reads, it will make it easier to read you further down the line. Well I'm interested in some of yours though. Particularly the ones on Djo and Vivax, since I'm drawing the opposite conclusions from some folks in the thread atm.
And it gets even better. Hapa has a townie feel on a martyr post with two reads he disagrees with. Curiously enough, all that goes to shit later on, when scum Hapa decides Tunkeg is a suitable mislynch:
On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip.
When I asked him about it, it led to:
On December 13 2012 12:12 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 12:01 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 13 2012 11:53 Hapahauli wrote:On December 13 2012 11:51 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip. Hapa, can you elaborate? Why do you think that Tunkeg looks worse now that WBG has flipped? Part of the reason I was leaning town on him was because I agreed with his read on WBG (martyr post). Since it was wrong though, there's not much else in that post of substance. Some obvious town reads, obvious scum read in Adam, seemingly easy case on Jay... it looks far less townie than it first appeared to me. So if he had given wbg a town read, would he have been looking better atm? I'd say he would have looked better if he expressed some more doubt or skepticisim. On a second readthrough of his filter (WBG-tunnelvision-off), his martyr post reads a lot like "oh since I might get lynched, I'll finally bother to post some reads."
I'd like everyone to pause and think here about how ??!!!??!!? this is. Hapa justifies his town->scum transition on Tunkeg because of how certain Tunkeg was in WBG. This does NOT depend on WBG's alignment. Yet, when WBG's alignment came to light, he used it to paint Tunkeg red. This is bullshit. If you need further proof as to why it is bullshit, refer to point 2.) of this post, where I discuss the follow-up on Palmar.
Jay - another town read which conveniently went to shit. Hapa had multiple town posts on Jay which I don't feel is relevant to invoke. However, the turning point on which he decided Jay was actually scum was:
On December 18 2012 07:38 Hapahauli wrote:
interesting. I'll have to think about whether it's true or not. If no one counterclaims, I could get behind a Jay lynch. His tunnel on Djo felt really forced all through today.
This feels totally off from someone with multiple references to how jay doesn't seem scummy (if necessary, I'll pull this up). It is also a convenient switch so as to not getting your scumbuddy lynched.
He also later includes VE's WIFOM into why he thought jay was scummy, which I feel is extremely weak. Onwards.
2.) Lack of interest
I mentioned earlier how I would not get into the merit of hapa being less influential and less present. Even with little time to post, there is still the ability to show interest in the game and finding scum, something which he has failed to do. The main example with him regarding this was his response to a certain post on Palmar. Remember the part I mentioned above regarding on how he would have liked for Tunkeg to be more uncertain on things? Well, Palmar made a certain post which said the exact opposite, and Hapa passively agreed:
On December 13 2012 18:45 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 18:43 Palmar wrote:
oh right, I thought you meant he was trolling me about misusing the words, which I never do.
I want to add this thought about Tunkeg's martyr post. Remember that if we assume he is scum, he knows bugs and I are both town, so what are the implications if I fail to stop the wagon that at the time was on him and swing it over to Adam? If he's scum he leaves a lot of things to be considered if he flips, and "opinions" on two loud town players between Bugs and I.
My initial thoughts were that if he is scum, he wouldn't dare leave such strong opinions on us, especially as I had already voiced my suspicions of Bugs, and scum calling him scum then flipping scum would probably make me rethink the issue.
I still feel the most reasonable explanation is that Tunkeg isn't scum.
In one sense, I agree, however Adam left us with something pretty similar as well. I guess my objection to the martyr post is the attitude of - "oh I'm getting lynched, guess I'll finally get around to provide some reads but w/e I'm dead I'll be playing dota"
There is all kinds of wrong with this post. First of all, that was NOT his initial objection. As a matter of fact, the attitude Hapa mentions had always been there. On that same attitude, he gave a slight town read, which later turned into a scum-read because on how bugs flipped, not because he changed his mind.
Secondly, Palmar said the exact opposite to what Hapa suggested. A townie hapa is inquisitive, and it doesn't take more than a few minutes to discuss this with Palmar. And yet, what Hapa does is simply shrug it off. Only when I noted it later, did he choose to go back on his thoughts:
The "sense" is just Palmar's perspective on things that I really hadn't thought about too much.
That being said, sleeping on things, I pretty heavily disagree with Palmar. Scum can very easily take strong stances on things since they know what's up. It's not like they were original opinions either - most of it was just a re-hash of everything that's been said in the thread.
This feels very little like town Hapa. A town hapa, on GSL, for example, heavily pounced on me due to little things like choice of words or the post I was quoting. Activity aside, I could tell he was interested in finding scum. This game, it simply doesn't.
When Hapa said that I was a scum read out of elimination and didn't give him any reason to think I was town, I was like "oh, piss in a bucket, here he comes". Whatever happened? Nothing, I was left alone. This was a huge tell I shouldn't have ignored earlier on.
3.) VE's bus
This was already mentioned earlier by some, but I'd still like to point out that this is mega-suspicious. Hapa had VE marked off as "idiot town" for pretty much a big part of day 2. Palmar comes in saying VE is likely scum, comes in saying Djo is likely scum.
Djo comes off as townie still, yet VE suddenly turns scum? He explains it here:
On December 17 2012 08:29 Hapahauli wrote:
Leaning town on VE initially
Asked him a question about something rather scummy in his filter
Change my mind on VE when a) VE doesn't respond and b) Palmar (who knows his meta far more than I do) thinks he's "sure to be scum"
Then I voted VE.
Don't see what's wrong with that
b) does not explain why the town read on Djo is still there.
a) I did some looking into, and found something very interesting. The only questions I see Hapa asking VE, in his filter are these:
On December 13 2012 18:29 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 18:24 VisceraEyes wrote:
1) I don't know if it's likely, I'm saying it's possible and therefor terrible play for any vig to counterclaim. It's not about Clarity "gambling" on there being two vigs, it's about the scumteam "knowing" that it's possible and relying on that to keep a vig from counterclaiming.
2) The fact that it was Bugs makes the alternative not likely. I think it's much more likely that scum Clarity shot strong townie Bugs at an opportune time for scum to make a play like that than a town Clarity shooting a veteran scumhunter without giving him a chance to defend himself and find us scum. And regardless of whether you believe Clarity is scum or town, that makes the scum KP debears yes? You're telling me that you believe that scum shot at debears and ONLY debears? 1) Why would it be bad play for a vig to counterclaim here? Closed setup or not, I really doubt there's more than 1 in a 16 man setup. 2) It doesn't matter who the guy is - the top scumread of the thread got shot on N1. How is that not completely normal? Plus Clarity's a new guy - it's not like he knows who Bugs is. Hell even I've never played in a game with Bugs. As for the debears thing, I've given it some thought. The way I see it, there are two possibilities: a) scum only shot at debears. I find this unlikely, given the risk of leaving a hypothetically town marv+Palmar alive b) scum vigi'd debears and shot at marv. This is what I'm thinking happened.
Please correct me here if I'm wrong, but I don't find any other "questions" he could have asked VE. What happens after these questions, when VE still hasn't answered Hapa? Well, you guessed it:
On December 14 2012 06:05 Hapahauli wrote:
Meh, I'm not feelin a VE lynch right now. His thing with clarity reads more as a misguided tunnel than something malicious.
Bluelightz on the other hand is ripe for some lynching. Lynch-bait or not, he's one of the few players in the game that hasn't given me any reason to think he's town. Tunkeg being the other, but I rather like that last longer post of his.
He also later adds another reason in, that goes with his new "heuristic":
On December 17 2012 08:36 Hapahauli wrote:
Regarding VE, he hasn't given me any sufficient reason to think he's town. He's my top scumread at the moment. As for Bluelightz, I came away from his "demotivated" conversation much the same as you did. Whiney, but townie. Or at the very least, more townie than VE.
Well shit, VE also hadn't given Hapa any reason to believe he was town earlier right? Whatever the hell happened that suddenly this became a tell? I'll tell you. The realization that he had to bus.
So not a single one of his reasonings of the VE town->scum transition make the slightest of sense. They all smell like bullshit. Every. Single. One.
Conclusion of Part I: Hapa == Scum.
- His town reads are questionable, his attitude towards Tunkeg is absolutely messed up and convenient for scum to place a mislynch.
- He does not show the same inquisitive nature and interest in the game when he is townie.
- Every single reason he used to justify his vote on VE is BS.
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Part II
Part two of this case will focus on association. I was hoping Hapa would reach more conclusions before making this, but I gotta wake up early in the morning tomorrow and really need to go. I see two strong association cases off of Hapa: marv and Djodref.
On Djodref, I can't shake the feeling that we could have been right on him. He's been a scumread for most of this game, and Palmar's as well. Despite his good activity, there's been lots of inconsistent stuff on his filter that make little sense from a townie perspective. Him being scum with Hapa would explain the weird town read which came in day two.
Remember that Hapa's first post in this thread was how Djo was the biggest scumread, but quickly that turned into a townread that stayed strong no matter what shards of scumminess came flying by, INCLUDING from Palmar, whom he took VE's read to be genuine, but not Djos.
This is a feeling I've had for some part of this game, but Djo's insta-vote into hapa today felt a bit off. I figure that if he were scum he'd see what way the lynch was heading. This might be a bit WIFOMy, but the djo-hapa interaction is weird as balls.
I feel much stronger about him being scum with marv though. Marv is a strong and capable player and I do not doubt that he would bus Adam in day one like that.
The biggest tell I find though, is how marv pushed Hapahauli when VE claimed, and backed away from it quickly to vote VE, and then, on day 4, didn't push Hapa day 4 at all. It's like his "scumread" on Hapa vanished. This is a similar play to that in Liquid City, where marv sent a bus on Node crashing down, on which he didn't expect Node to get lynched.
Hapa's latest "push" on marv is an attestment to this. He begins going strong against marv, but just bluntly states that marv is 99% town to him. Since many players here share the view that marv is looking townie this game, I view this as an attempt to connect with the rest of the town on some ground, which is flimsy as shit.
Of course marv claimed vet day 5. How else would he justify being alive? Why does this come off as an "unlikely play for scum to do" in plain mylo? And look now at how quick marv was to bus hapa today to save himself the town cred for tomorrow.
I'm more convinced on hapa-marv than hapa-Djo, but I want everyone to pay attention to the details I've tried to lay out as best I could in my guide. Kill Hapa. Kill marv. It should be fairly obvious. And then....
GG
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Hapa, your case is extremely weak and reeks of desperation.
I didn't give a town read day one? Is that why I'm scum? You're probably comparing that to my play on mario which got me lynched.
Well, compare that to my whopping ONE town read in liquid city:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260&user=28495 (which a fairly obvious one on shady sands).
And my ZERO town reads in XXVIII:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370487
I skimmed over these, but I think the count is right, you are free to check.
Counting just day one of course. I usually like to give my thoughts on after we gain solid information.
On the VE lynch, why are you lying? The deadline is @10:00 in the forum time. I made the vote one hour and 15 minutes before the deadline, because that's when I had to go.
I didn't talk to VE because VE has been a dick ever since Liquid City. On Chronotrigger, note that even in the scum qt we didn't talk.
Unless of course, you are going to use this as a tell and find my other teammate, who I also didn't talk to? Or is it because in your scummy I randomly chose VE? Pssht.
Dealing with that second rebuttal post of yours in a sec
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On December 23 2012 12:21 Hapahauli wrote:Oh man that case on me is a lot less impressive than it first looked. Like it's actually shockingly bad out of what I'd expect from a town Z-Bo.
1) Hapa's Town Reads (particularly the one on Tunkeg) Firstly, you say that I shouldn't have initially found Tunkeg town because I disagreed with some of his martyr reads. This is absurd. Whether or not a player is correct has nothing to do with whether they're scum or not. Secondly, you think my switch on Tunkeg is scummy because I "used" WBG's blue-flip. This is both faulty logic and a misrepresentation. I eventually switched to Tunkeg because he was too sure of himself THROUGHOUT his filter on MULTIPLE subjects: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=77#1536Also, I did find Tunkeg being "too sure" on his WBG read as scummy. Several players in the game (when Tunkeg posted his "martyr" thing) thought WBG was scum. It's really easy for scum to go "oh this guy is 100% scum I'm sure of it." Scum are confident because they know their objectives, and I thought a townie would be less-confident about such a read. I was clearly wrong.
You changed your views on tunkeg from leaning town to "not looking too hot" because WBG flipped blue. There is no misinterpretation in your words here:
On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip.
The fact of the matter is, that when I asked you to justify it, you answered with: the problem is his certainty.
Note, however, that Tunkeg already was certain on WBG being scum before WBG's flip. You didn't use that heuristic to attack Tunkeg at any point in time before WBG's flip.
That post you quoted is just you pushing him and consolidating him for other reasons than what was your original reaction to WBG flipping. If your whole deal is with certainty, how does WBG's flip change anything? You realized this later, but note that when I prodded you, you STILL showed this thought process:
On December 13 2012 11:53 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 11:51 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip. Hapa, can you elaborate? Why do you think that Tunkeg looks worse now that WBG has flipped? Part of the reason I was leaning town on him was because I agreed with his read on WBG (martyr post). Since it was wrong though, there's not much else in that post of substance. Some obvious town reads, obvious scum read in Adam, seemingly easy case on Jay... it looks far less townie than it first appeared to me.
So, it's not a misrepresentation. You supposedly "overlooked" his certainty earlier in favor of you agreeing with him on Bugs. Then, only when you felt that you could mislynch him, you brought it up.
2) Lack of Interest
Funny enough, this isn't at all about my lack of interest, but more about my Tunkeg read. But anyway, my "lack of interest" was on display in Chrono Trigger Mafia as well. I was town. I was super-engaged in Mario Mini. I was scum.
I've been in much of a different mood this game. I've been far less "involved" due to me being busy. That certainly reflects in my gameplay, but it's not allignment indicative.
Tunkeg thing is the biggest example I have. I also cited the difference in which you pursue your reads in GSL and in here, with regards to me..
I've been less involved in games so I know what you mean but
posts such as these, for instance:
On December 12 2012 17:35 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:32 Tunkeg wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 12 2012 17:05 Hapahauli wrote:All caught up! Here's the read dump:
Town d00dsThrawn - Duh. debears - Duh. Djodref - This one probably needs some 'splainin. The shit that he pulled at the end of the Day 1 lynch in no sane way came from a scum player. He was really enthralled with this idea of starting a last-minute wagon on a player when it was clear that adam would be getting lynched. I can't see hypothetical scum Djo pulling stuff like this, since he would have known that Adam would flip red. The dynamics of the game suggest that Adam was bussed by scum in the later hours. Djodref's play is far too attention-whoring and suicidal to be from scum. In addition, there are posts like this... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=13#260...where he displays a really convoluted thought process that I attribute more to town than scum. Palmar - He's definitely capable of bussing his own, but he didn't even make an attempt to go for another target but Adam. Much different from what I saw of his scum-play in Rockband Mini anywho. Clarity - His posts just seem pretty townie overall. Solid logic, really patient and well-thought out reads. Palmar's video goes through his early-game pretty well. And there are gems like this: Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 09:57 Clarity_nl wrote:
WHAT THE FUCK I GIVE UP FUCK YOU
HE MADE THE READS WITHOUT KNOWING HIS ALIGNMENT, HOW CAN HIS READS THAT HE MADE BEFORE READING HIS PM BE ALIGNMENT INDICATIVE Vivax - I explained my read on Vivax earlier... Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 14:36 Hapahauli wrote:Around page 24 - leaning town on Vivax in spite of Z-Bo's case for two reasons. 1) Adam posts a case on Vivax shortly after dropping his "confrontation" with debears: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=24#463Vivax is under some fire already, and it would be a really strange play for Adam to go after a hypothetical scumbuddy like this when there were plenty of other targets to chose from at this point in the game (Tunkeg, Jay, etc). Unless all these guys are scum, the Vivax choice makes very little sense if Vivax is scum. 2) He posted a dry-erase board picture of an "analysis web" of the Thrawn "incident" earlier in the game. That says try-hard townie to me. His voting actions are a bit weird (being convinced to vote Adam by Grush is quite sketch), but I can see a town thought-process of just wanting to not no-lynch. marv - Marv voting Adam early (2nd?) doesn't strike me as a scum move. Marv is capable of bussing plays, but a D1 bus of adam with plenty of other lynch options seems like a bit of a stretch. A possibility for sure, but not too likely methinks. green - He hasn't done much, but his vote on Adam gave me a town feel. Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 07:39 VisceraEyes wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote: Adam
Baaaaaaahhhhh. He doesn't attempt to glorify it or justify it - he's candid about the whole thing, and that strikes me as town.
Null ReadsJay - He seems like a pretty easy mislynch as town in his other games. He's not done much allignment-indicative in my eyes. Maaaaybe some townie points for being the hammer-vote on Adam, but that's about it. Tunkeg - Another wishy-washy player from what I've seen of his meta. I do like his "martyr" post quite a bit, because based on his general "mentality" as a player, I feel it's not a type of post that a player like him would make as a scum. Though I haven't seen a scum-game that he's played, which is why I'm a bit more hesitant. Maybe slightly townie, but nothing like the guys above. Grush - He's been on Adam from the get-go, and I'm unsure what to think of it. That would be a town-tell for most players, but this is Grush, and part of me thinks that he has a little extra info. Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 06:25 grush57 wrote:
That's pretty reasonable. I'm a bit cautious of Bluelightz because he is a vet. Jay strikes me as a foolish townie and Tunk is probably a noobie. I want to vote Adam because he is reminding me of his scum play. Like this post... seems... too... reasonable for Grush? This is probably crazy on my part, but having seen him play Mafia LVII, his nonsensical town play there is pretty fresh in my mind. Z-Boson - His play is not alignment indicative so far. He's capable of bombing the big cases as town or scum. What will be telling in the future is if he can maintain good logic in making those cases.
ScumreadsBluelightz - I realize he's lynch bait (and I tunnel'd him to death when he was town in Rockband), but in this game, I find his play lines up real neat with a scum agenda. In his opening post, he spreads suspicion on four different players: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=12#238He posts a bunch after that, but never follows up on any of the suspicions he pushed in that thread. Notably, he never pushes the guy whom he put his vote on (jay). His vote on Adam also feels like a bus vote, a nice little agreeable and uncontroversial vote when the bandwagon is gaining steam. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=33#648WBG - I get very scared when a vet gives me no reason to think he's town, and this seems to be the case with WBG. He has a case on a "lynch-bait" player in Tunkeg, but that's about it. His play is very "clean," and as the leader of one of the main counter-wagons to the Adam lynch (and given that I have no reason to think Tunkeg is scum at this point), I'm inclined to think WBG is scum. WTF do you know about my meta? Have me and you ever played a game? Have you read through my games after being replaced in (while you just now have been able to read up on this game)? Also you say my meta is wishy washy, lol. Are you sure you haven't skimmed through the scum QT and have misunderstood what they wrote about my meta? Yes I skimmed a couple of your games. Whaddya think I"ve been doing for the last few hours?
Seems like you trying to pass off as though you are invested. I mean, you are invested enough to spend the last few hours reading TUnkeg's filter to confirm a meta read, but not enough to push your reads? I dunno man...
3) My "Bus" of VE You are LYING Z-BosonShow nested quote +On December 15 2012 10:18 Hapahauli wrote:On December 15 2012 10:08 jaybrundage wrote:
Time to vote Palmar? Not time to vote Palmar.
I'll have to look between jay, VE, BL, and Z-Bo for the next scummer. I was planning to post question VE about one of his posts if Tunkeg flipped red. That sadly didn't happen, but the post seems relevant regardless: On December 14 2012 16:21 VisceraEyes wrote:
After looking at Tunkeg's filter, it's mostly blah. Not even in a bad way or good way...just blah. The only thing I don't like about his filter is nicely summed up in Hapa's post on the guy - his periods of absolute certainty that he shouldn't have if he's town.
His "martyr reads" and Adam's reads ended up being strikingly similar, but Tunkeg's came first and Adam flipped scum.
He MIGHT be scum, but I'm not really interested in lynching him today. I prefer to see ZBoson flip before making a final judgement call on Tunkeg. If I can't get a ZBoson lynch and Tunkeg is the only other alternative however, I would vote for Tunkeg. The bolded is a pretty strong statement. I'm not sure if it's just poor wording or not, but he seems to be putting some heavy suspicion on Tunkeg, then dancing around the issue in favor of Z-Bo. This is my question to VE. You completely ignored it and quoted a different post. What gives?
Well you see, that isn't a question, that is a statement. In your answer to marv, you said it was a question, and the one I quoted is the only question I found, and VE in fact didn't answer said question, so I thought it was what you were referring to.
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On December 23 2012 12:28 Hapahauli wrote:Also, what happens when you look at Z-Boson's Tunkeg stances? Hilarity ensues: 1) Finds Tunkeg town for martyr post Show nested quote +Tunkeg is most likely town. Much to my frustration, I feel I was wrong about him. I see no reason for him to go ahead and give away his scum-buddy (maybe two of them, if I'm right about bugs) in his death reads.
This is the only part I made a townread on him. I realized that the reasoning for me to think he was town was completely stupid. This was at a time where I thought bugs was scum as well. When bugs flipped, he'd only given away an obvious scumread, so my argument didn't really make much sense.
2) Asks me about Tunkeg, AGREES with me about Tunkeg: Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 11:51 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip. Hapa, can you elaborate? Why do you think that Tunkeg looks worse now that WBG has flipped? Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 12:31 Z-BosoN wrote:
Yea I'll have to reassess Tunkeg
I really thought him to be scum day 1 and thought he might be town since he included Adam as scum in his lists, but then again, that might not mean much, because Adam was pretty likely to get lynched when Tunkeg martyred.
I'm off to sleep, Gnight
Here's where I explain why my town read was whack, actually. If you agree with this explanation, great, stop cherrypicking. If not, let me know why, I'd really like to know.
I'll have to reassess because I agreed with you on how too certain Tunkeg was. It's not like I'm pissing on you because you were trying to mislynch him, but rather because you changed your criteria to make it convenient for you, in a rather suspicious and non-townie way.
3) Yep, fuck that town read, I want to lynch Tunkeg Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 14:29 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 14 2012 09:53 Djodref wrote:On December 14 2012 02:27 Z-BosoN wrote:@DjodrefYou bring an interesting point regarding Tunkeg's "shying away" from Palmar. It's additional fluff for him not to actually scumhunt. I don't understand this passage, though, where you are calling it a scumslip: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=69#1361Calling people dumb like this (reference to potential jailkeepers) is a scumslip. You call town players dumb and bad, mafia players are just mafia players  Can you elaborate? @ Z-BosonOn December 13 2012 00:36 Tunkeg wrote:On December 13 2012 00:32 Clarity_nl wrote:
Directing the jailkeeper when his target is "so obvious only a retard would not" is dumb and useless and throwing WIFOM in the air for no reason. If the target is so obvious why are you even saying it? Well, there are some seriously dumb people playing this game. If they happened to roll jk they need to be told what to do. For me, this totally could be a scumslip. Who he is talking about ? How does he know who is actually dumb (potential jks) and who is just playing dumb on purpose (potential mafia players) ? It could be easily explained if he had extra info on players alignment, if he is mafia for example. Honestly, I wouldn't have worried so much about this post if Tunkeg hadn't totally shied away from Palmar when he started to ask questions about it. I could totally see a town player post like this but his reaction feels forced. On December 13 2012 00:45 Tunkeg wrote:On December 13 2012 00:40 Palmar wrote:On December 13 2012 00:36 Tunkeg wrote:On December 13 2012 00:32 Clarity_nl wrote:
Directing the jailkeeper when his target is "so obvious only a retard would not" is dumb and useless and throwing WIFOM in the air for no reason. If the target is so obvious why are you even saying it? Well, there are some seriously dumb people playing this game. If they happend to roll jk they need to be told what to do. Please list the people dumb enough. Nah, its the same people I have called dumb earlier. Maybe they haven't noticed or forgot. Don't want to insult them more, they might just not do as told to spite me. Like, seriously, what the fuck is that kind of line of thinking ? Why the JK would like to listen to Tunkeg at the first place ? Why would he be emotional ? And now I'm not going to speculate because I have learned from my previous games that this will almost always be futile, especially when we are still in day 2. Now I see what you mean. It makes a lot of sense, and it goes along with the fact that I feel Tunkeg seems waaaay too certain of his reads this game. Btw, corrected your post ^^ I'll revert back to my original thoughts on Tunkeg. I to this day have not gotten over on how he ignored a case I made on a "suspicion" he had. ##Vote TunkegAlso
Yea, I thought about how my town read on him was stupid, and reverted back to my case I made on day one, which I found, and still find, to be decent.
4) "Guys, I know it's right before the lynch, but I want to make sure that you know I have reasons for voting Tunkeg even though everyone already is voting him."
I had already given my own reasons for voting him (my day 1 case). This is me being careful and trying to lynch correctly. Why would I make this post as scum?? So people don't go being angry at me for not justifying my vote, even though I'd already done that? Please
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On December 23 2012 12:32 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 12:25 Z-BosoN wrote:Hapa, your case is extremely weak and reeks of desperation. I didn't give a town read day one? Is that why I'm scum? You're probably comparing that to my play on mario which got me lynched. Well, compare that to my whopping ONE town read in liquid city: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371260&user=28495 (which a fairly obvious one on shady sands). And my ZERO town reads in XXVIII: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370487I skimmed over these, but I think the count is right, you are free to check. Counting just day one of course. I usually like to give my thoughts on after we gain solid information. On the VE lynch, why are you lying? The deadline is @10:00 in the forum time. I made the vote one hour and 15 minutes before the deadline, because that's when I had to go. I didn't talk to VE because VE has been a dick ever since Liquid City. On Chronotrigger, note that even in the scum qt we didn't talk. Unless of course, you are going to use this as a tell and find my other teammate, who I also didn't talk to? Or is it because in your scummy I randomly chose VE? Pssht. Dealing with that second rebuttal post of yours in a sec You're totes right about the 1h 15min thing. However it still stands that you went from "I'm down with a lynch" to "ehhhh I want to park my vote on jay" to "fuck that! Lynch VE that fucker!"... all when it was convenient for you to do so. You didn't pursue your read on Vivax despite explicitly calling him scum, in favor of "being down with a VE lynch" Then, when VE claimed, you were in super-doubt-mode and wanted to leave a vote on Jay. Then when people didn't move their vote from VE, "LOL HE'S SCUM I'm sure!" It's not a consistent attitude, and you fail-bussed each other.
I had to leave and needed to place my vote. I said I wanted to place my vote on Jay, and then decided to actually read into VE's filter (note the time difference between the post I mention Jay and the one I consolidate on VE) and decided to go through and lynch him. Also, I didn't say this at the time, and this was a very storng part of my decision, but I thought vivax was cop because of how strongly he opposed the lynch, when earlier in the same day he had been calling VE town (I also made a small reference to this somewhere in there).
ANYWAYS. Answering your latest posts.
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On December 23 2012 12:55 Hapahauli wrote:What are your opinions on my assessment of Marv? Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 10:28 Hapahauli wrote:After thinking about it some, I'm 99% sure that marv is town. Firstly, his veteran claim is very risky from a scum perspective. There's a high chance that there are 4 blues in this game. Given that he claimed veteran, he would risk a lot of pressure on himself had a 5th blue counterclaimed. No one has done so, and the risk/reward of such a fake-claim suggests that Marv is town. In addition, there are too many easy opportunities he has turned down to be scum. He could have very easily pushed the BL lynch and come out fine from it. In addition, of all the players he seemed the most concerned about finding out Djo's alignment and objectively considering things. Finally, he's been the most hesitant to jump on my lynch out of the players. As a last point, I'm coming away from his interaction with Tunkeg (page 11 of his filter) as pretty authentic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953&user=140487¤tpage=11I'm not sure why marv is alive right now, but his play shows far too much correlation with his town play (and not nearly enough with his scum-play) for him to be scum.
I don't agree with how risky it is to claim veteran. It's a perfectly reasonable maneuver for him to justify why he's alive in mylo, if he is scum.
I agree with how much more invested he is in this game in comparison to GSL, but I'm not going with a 99%.
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Yea I grabbed a snack. Hang in there.
I'd like to know more of your town read on Djo. Is it still that day one stuff and his activity when being pressured?
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On December 23 2012 13:31 Hapahauli wrote:
I mean we could say that the scumteam had really poor communication and that Djo was largely acting on his own, but even then, given that two in the group of us are scum and two of us have lasted until the endgame, communication can't have been that much of an issue, even in the early game.
Well Adam was rather quiet, VE was rather quiet. Djo does seem much more interested here, but he's a capable player imo. However, there's a ton of stuff that's weird in his filter, so I really hesitate to pass it off so easily to activity.
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On December 23 2012 13:42 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 13:36 Z-BosoN wrote:
Yea I grabbed a snack. Hang in there.
I'd like to know more of your town read on Djo. Is it still that day one stuff and his activity when being pressured? For two reasons: 1) His actions aren't coherent with a mafia "strategy." VE bussed Adam. Scum should have known that Adam was going down. Yet Djo goes and tries to last-minute voteswitch on both tunkeg and jay at the lynch deadline... I can't see the scum-mentality in that, especially since the mafia QT should have been on "BUS ALERT!" 2) His activity when pressured was absurd. He was bombing cases left and right. Such an insane amount of effort in scumhunting that I can only attribute to a townie.
1) Well, Djo has been around enough to work out how you and marv think. I tried the same thing in CT, where I went with sandro all the way trying to convince people, etc. then didn't really want to bus him in favor of another scum (Toad)
2) An engaged scum djo is perfectly capable of this, imo
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On December 23 2012 13:44 Hapahauli wrote:
Muze with me on Djo a bit. You were playing with him in Mario Mini - you see any similarities/differences to that? He seems to me like 10000x more concerned with scumhunting in this game.
Well he spent a fuckton of time set up speculating, and was fairly active with a 14-page filter.
But yea, he seemed to give much less a shit in that game than in this one if he were scum. Either he adapted his gameplay, or he really is townie
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On December 23 2012 13:55 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 13:49 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 23 2012 13:42 Hapahauli wrote:On December 23 2012 13:36 Z-BosoN wrote:
Yea I grabbed a snack. Hang in there.
I'd like to know more of your town read on Djo. Is it still that day one stuff and his activity when being pressured? For two reasons: 1) His actions aren't coherent with a mafia "strategy." VE bussed Adam. Scum should have known that Adam was going down. Yet Djo goes and tries to last-minute voteswitch on both tunkeg and jay at the lynch deadline... I can't see the scum-mentality in that, especially since the mafia QT should have been on "BUS ALERT!" 2) His activity when pressured was absurd. He was bombing cases left and right. Such an insane amount of effort in scumhunting that I can only attribute to a townie. 1) Well, Djo has been around enough to work out how you and marv think. I tried the same thing in CT, where I went with sandro all the way trying to convince people, etc. then didn't really want to bus him in favor of another scum (Toad) 2) An engaged scum djo is perfectly capable of this, imo I feel that the game mechanics in CT made your "strategy" (bussing toad over sandro) quite normal in retrospect (Toad's abilities in particular). CT seemed more of a special case. I can't find a similar strategy here, especially when the deviation from the normal strategy would make you look TERRRIBLE.
Well, for scum Djo, all three of his buddies were already bussing. Maybe he felt his bus wouldn't be able to feel natural during his previous posts (which pretty much defended adam from debears), and decided to stick with his momentum. I'm not confident that's enough to warrant a complete town read.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZB6tS3iR6V8/UMhCrpiTc4I/AAAAAAAADLc/icU7N2ljXeI/s1600/ara.jpg)
