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On November 30 2012 07:46 iamperfection wrote:
hapa wouldn't it have been much easier and less sticking his neck out to bus sandro right from the get go? It seemed like the only 2 real candidates for lynch were sandro and to lesser extend toad.
Do you interpret his suspicion of CaveJohnson and GoodKarma as sticking his neck out? I certainly don't.
He votes CaveJohnson for literally no rationale. He calls him "bright red" on his list, but never elaborates, while listing rationale to call 4 other people scummy (including Sandro, keeping his options open). That's not "sticking your neck out" at all. The GK case is similar - completely substance-less.
If he actively pushed his suspicions, I'd agree with you. But he doesn't. He pushes two suspicions and then votes Sandro without complaint when it is convenient for him to do so.
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I mean really, just look at his D2 play:
My list with reads on everyone has one person painted in bright red: CaveJohnson. That's were my vote goes for now.
My vote is currently on CaveJohnson.
Not finished with reading everything. Not feeling sure enough with Toad yet. I can agree to a Sandro lynch. His reluctance to defend himself, the way he talked about his scumreads (only mentioning names, barely any reasoning) and his lurking when under pressure are enough reasons for me to justify a vote.
And even then this could be excusable... but he never mentions CaveJohnson as a scumread ever again in his filter. He's scum that forgot about one of his suspicions. In fact, the next time he metnions him, he's cooperative towards him:
On November 29 2012 07:38 phagga wrote:
CaveJohnson, I have 600 max HP, if you use me as Target A, I will be able to use this skill next night as well. Your action goes through normally, I get the same skill to use next night. If you trust me to be town, make me Target A instead of Acro.
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@ Phagga
Regarding "Odds on your side"
Your suspicions on GoodKarma ebb and flow with the general attitude on the thread. You initially find GK scummy, then when that doesn't gain any traction, you read him as null and soft defend him:
On November 26 2012 07:27 phagga wrote:
Ok, I've updated my read on GK and I would no longer lynch him. When the D2 lynch came to a close, he asked people to consolidate on either sandroba or Toad. He tried to shut down any discussion that would bring in new candidates. considering that Sandro is confirmed scum and Toad is very very likely scum, I don't see the mafia motivation behind is behaviour.
also, the way he acts D3 seems more pro-town than on the first day. All in all, I put GK on null for the moment.
On November 26 2012 07:31 phagga wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 07:29 Promethelax wrote:On November 26 2012 07:27 phagga wrote:
Ok, I've updated my read on GK and I would no longer lynch him. When the D2 lynch came to a close, he asked people to consolidate on either sandroba or Toad. He tried to shut down any discussion that would bring in new candidates. considering that Sandro is confirmed scum and Toad is very very likely scum, I don't see the mafia motivation behind is behaviour.
also, the way he acts D3 seems more pro-town than on the first day. All in all, I put GK on null for the moment. he tried to get us to consolidate on one of two scum players and you are null on him? I'm confused. Why? Scum would benefit in this situation when the thread derails/new candidates are brought forths, so I don't see the scum motivation in doing what GK did.
tl;dr, i said I doubt GK is scum partially because of his behaviiour before the D2 lynch, z-boson says it could have been a buss, we disagree a bit.
Then when suspicion starts to shift on GK again, you up your rhetoric and start railing him.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=222#4436
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=225#4481
... which is also kinda comical because you seemingly forgot that you 180'd your read on GK:
@Prom I haven't read your case completely yet, but there are good points in it. However, I might have confirmation bias as I was already leaning scum on GK beforehand.
Regarding your Stance on Sandro
Wrong. I wanted to get GKs reaction. I did not have a scum read on him yet. I also did not have a town read on Sandro. It was hypothetical. That's the very reason why I worded it exactly this way: "What do you say to the following". If I thought that he was scum I would have written that completely different.
And yes, I still find it strange that he likes Sandros approach to the game, that he thinks Sandro is town, but that he wants to be leader himself with sandro on his team and a different appraoch? Why should I vote him then when he said himself that Sandros approach was good? That was the confusion behind it.
I beg to differ. Your entire line of questioning against GK was under the assumption that Sandro was town.
Why do I HAVE to mention that? It's obvious that he is at least a slight town read for me when I vote him over Syllo who I also lean town. At least I thought it would be obvious....
Also, I wrote clearly why I do not vote Syllo: I was leaning town on him, but I have no idea how he plays, so I feared in the back of my head that he might be mafia and I'm too blind to see it. Hence Kita.
The thing is you never attempted to make a read on Sandro at all. In addition, you seemingly liked his ideas, thought he was slightly town, yet you were comfortable voting Kita despite having huge reservations about one of his party members (Promethelax).
Regarding your stance on Cave Johnson
On November 30 2012 08:14 phagga wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 08:08 Hapahauli wrote:I mean really, just look at his D2 play: My list with reads on everyone has one person painted in bright red: CaveJohnson. That's were my vote goes for now. My vote is currently on CaveJohnson. Not finished with reading everything. Not feeling sure enough with Toad yet. I can agree to a Sandro lynch. His reluctance to defend himself, the way he talked about his scumreads (only mentioning names, barely any reasoning) and his lurking when under pressure are enough reasons for me to justify a vote. And even then this could be excusable... but he never mentions CaveJohnson as a scumread ever again in his filter. He's scum that forgot about one of his suspicions. In fact, the next time he metnions him, he's cooperative towards him: On November 29 2012 07:38 phagga wrote:
CaveJohnson, I have 600 max HP, if you use me as Target A, I will be able to use this skill next night as well. Your action goes through normally, I get the same skill to use next night. If you trust me to be town, make me Target A instead of Acro. He improved. There was no need push him anymore on D3. Also, i was absent of the thread for most of D2 (which I announced beforehand). Regarding the last post, yes, I was pretty sure at that point that he is at least not scum. However, i was overeager when I wrote that post, I should have gone into this more cautiously, not revealing that much about me.
I find it inconceivable that you thought CaveJohnson improved so much that you all of a sudden trusted him here. You went from convinced he was scum, to not mentioning him for days, to being super-cooperative with him. Cave maintained his "trolliness" throughout.
On November 30 2012 08:27 phagga wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 08:14 phagga wrote:On November 30 2012 08:08 Hapahauli wrote:I mean really, just look at his D2 play: My list with reads on everyone has one person painted in bright red: CaveJohnson. That's were my vote goes for now. My vote is currently on CaveJohnson. Not finished with reading everything. Not feeling sure enough with Toad yet. I can agree to a Sandro lynch. His reluctance to defend himself, the way he talked about his scumreads (only mentioning names, barely any reasoning) and his lurking when under pressure are enough reasons for me to justify a vote. And even then this could be excusable... but he never mentions CaveJohnson as a scumread ever again in his filter. He's scum that forgot about one of his suspicions. In fact, the next time he metnions him, he's cooperative towards him: On November 29 2012 07:38 phagga wrote:
CaveJohnson, I have 600 max HP, if you use me as Target A, I will be able to use this skill next night as well. Your action goes through normally, I get the same skill to use next night. If you trust me to be town, make me Target A instead of Acro. He improved. There was no need push him anymore on D3. Also, i was absent of the thread for most of D2 (which I announced beforehand). Regarding the last post, yes, I was pretty sure at that point that he is at least not scum. However, i was overeager when I wrote that post, I should have gone into this more cautiously, not revealing that much about me. Regarding the bolded, it was specifically the conversation about acro that made me rethink my stance on it. In his filter from here on: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17025482 Also, several players stated that drazerk often plays irritating as town and scum. Many called him a coinflip. I took this into consideration. So my read changed from scum to null.
Thing is, you didn't go from scum to null - you went from scum to seemingly complete trust in his ability. I can't rationalize that from a town perspective.
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On November 30 2012 08:19 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 07:41 Hapahauli wrote:On November 30 2012 07:39 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 30 2012 07:34 Hapahauli wrote:
Geezus christ. I have no idea why this "heal PM" shit is still going on.
If you think I lied, vote me and shut the fuck up about it.
If you think I didn't, then will someone please comment on my goddamn Phagga case.
If you don't know, then read my goddamn Phagga case and make a decision based on my behavior rather than retarded speculation about night actions when we have no fucking idea what mechanics/scum-abilities/town-abilities/etc are going on behind the scenes. . You don't care that a fucking HEAL WENT MISSING? I realize the implications for yourself, but no matter who is being questioned, this is still important to the town to try to figure it out. Phagga looks scummy from the case you've built. He's in the thread and I'd expect he'll reply. I need to read his filter myself and then I'll revisit, I need to do the same with Prox's case on GK. I won't have time to do so properly today. I have an existing scumread on Z-Boson that I need to go over as well. I'll make my reads known before this cycle ends. No I really don't. I didn't get healed and that's a fact. The issue I'm having is that a bunch of players are sitting around and pondering it without making a decision on it. The attitude seems to be "hmmm this could possibly maybe be suspicious I think." No one's come to a conclusion, and quite frankly I'm sick of being discredited for telling the truth about my night actions. How about this for a "conclusion". The most logical explanation is that either you were lying about taking damage, or Clarity was lying about healing you. Clarity is pretty obviously town, so I don't think he's lying. That leaves you. You are probably scum. There are some possible outside explanations (an ability that makes you untargetable and the person targeting you isn't notified of that; host error) that don't seem particularly likely. You haven't really jumped out at me as super-pro townie though, which is probably partly an effect of your lesser time availability, but the combination of the two has me leaning scum on you.
Well then fuck you.
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This is why I hate themed/closed/whatever games. People can think you're "scummy" for stupid night-action speculation.
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On November 30 2012 08:45 Clarity_nl wrote:
Hapa that happens in normal games too, framer mechanic.
Why are you mad that Keir just said he is leaning scum on you, like seriously.
Someone calls you scum in the game of mafia and your response is "fuck you"?
If someone found me scum based on actual rationale (i.e. building a case, behavior, etc), I'd be totally cool with that (well not really, but I'd be less dismissive). But most of this is substantiated on the idea that I'm somehow lying about damage, which is a) false and b) a completely ridiculous line of reasoning.
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On November 30 2012 08:53 Clarity_nl wrote:
No one is calling you scum except for keir, and he said LEANING scum. Yet you're screaming and shouting as if we're all ready to lynch you. It's such an overreaction I can't even begin to explain it.
I think there is a reasonable chance that you lied about being healed, there's also a reasonable chance there was a position swap mechanic or something along those lines.
It is however, not a ridiculous line of reasoning.
Well put yourself in my shoes. Every time I pop into the thread recently, I have to deal with a discussion based entirely on night-action mechanic speculation. Apparently being open about the damage I took has been twisted into being scummy, and it pisses me off. If you want to call it an overreaction, go for it, but I'm really really pissed by all of this.
Hell people seem more happy to talk about stupid things like this instead of a giant fucking case I posted on Phagga. Particularly, it blows my mind that people are ignoring this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=253#5045
All of this is just some stupid safety-blanket people want to cling to instead of looking for behavior and other things that actually matter.
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And will someone read my goddamn case on Phagga already? The fact that a bunch of near-confirmed townies are herp-derping around is maddening.
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On November 30 2012 09:02 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 09:01 Hapahauli wrote:
And will someone read my goddamn case on Phagga already? The fact that a bunch of near-confirmed townies are herp-derping around is maddening. we read its just hard to trust the speaker. You can complain about it all you want but which you gonna do
Just read the fucking case and see if you agree with my analysis. Hell for all you know I'm bussing my "scumbuddy" or whatever, so pay freggin attention.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=253#5045
Read this and tell me that he's town. I've offered you so much evidence against the fact, and as far as I can see, you're either maddeningly lazy or scum. Unfortunately, I think you're the former.
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@ Phagga
Oh, you imply that I hit on GK only because other people now wrote about him too? Wrong. Can I prove it? no. But in similar way I can say that you just started building a case on my after z-boson came at me.
All I can say about that is that I really saw things I did not like and tried to point them out. I also think I do have some points that others did not mention. Others have written about GK too? Well, bad luck, there is a case about almost everyone in the game floating around by now, if it is about that I cannot go after anyone.
Thing is, this is not just about GoodKarma. This is a well-established pattern of doing things that are "convenient." In addition to the stuff on GoodKarma, you also voted for Syllo when it was popular to do so. You also voted to lynch Sandrob under the same circumstances.
It is the pattern, and not just your individual stance on GoodKarma that is damning.
GK saw Sandro as town. If GK were scum, he would at least know that Sandro is not scum. GK wants to have sandro in his team. I don't like the reasoning of GK, I think its contradicting. I therefore make the hypothesis that if GK is scum, he takes Sandro (whom he knows not to be scum) on his team to look more townie. That's the whole story. I did not say anywhere in that post that I think that Sandro is town.
Hell, i even write one paragraph earlier: " If GK thinks Sandro is so townie that you includes him in your team" (it should actually say "you" instead of "GK", but whatever).
What about GK's previous analysis was "contradictory?" He wanted someone he thought was town on his team - that's pretty straightfoward to me.
Eh, contradiction? I never attempted to make a read on Sandroba but wrote that he was slightly town?
Also, I wrote why I voted kita. Because I don't know how Sandro and Syllo play, I therefore did not trust them.
Not a contradiction. You never made a read on sandroba in your filter. In your defense, you mentioned that it was "implied" that you thought he was slightly town.
And I absolutely don't buy your reasoning on Sandro and Syllo, since it's doubtful you knew how Kita played either.
I read his (ed: CaveJohnson's) post like 30 minutes before deadline. I saw a chance for town to get a cool ability twice instead of only once. I got overexcited, posted to open without thinking.
I really really doubt you magically "forgot" all your feelings about CaveJohnson after having him "bright red" in your "notes." I also doubt that you "forgot" to mention you read on him at all between D2 and now after heavily pushing for his lynch on D2.
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On November 30 2012 09:16 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 09:01 Hapahauli wrote:
And will someone read my goddamn case on Phagga already? The fact that a bunch of near-confirmed townies are herp-derping around is maddening. I read it. It wasn't the most convincing thing ever. I wish Phag posted more and some of his d1 stuff is incriminating but I feel like I couldn't build a case that would convince me he is scum.
How in the hell...
Just look at his D2 actions:
On November 23 2012 18:05 phagga wrote:
My list with reads on everyone has one person painted in bright red: CaveJohnson. That's were my vote goes for now.
However, my list is not up to date. I will try to go through several filters and update it, so I might make a more definite vote before Kita has to make his prediction.
People who are also red in my list:
- Goodkarma, although I REALLY have to go through his filter now. Have not done that yet.
- BioSC, lurking hardcore although he was very excited pregame, as someone mentioned
Other people I want to look into/know more about:
- Sandroba, I read his filter yesterday. I want to hear more from him and what he says about the current accusations
- Hopeless1der, I have "looks shady, check filter" note on him, but I don't know why anymore. Will clear this up.
##Vote CaveJohnson
Read this and tell me it isn't a horrendously scummy post. He votes CaveJohnson for no reasoning. In fact he's never given any reasoning about his CJ read. He then proceeds to list 4 other potentially "scummy" players. Interestingly, his description of Sandroba is much milder than the others.
He then affirms his vote on CJ (twice) before settling on Sandroba at the very end when it's clear Sandroba is going to get lynched.
He never mentions CJ again until this:
On November 29 2012 07:38 phagga wrote:
CaveJohnson, I have 600 max HP, if you use me as Target A, I will be able to use this skill next night as well. Your action goes through normally, I get the same skill to use next night. If you trust me to be town, make me Target A instead of Acro.
Where all of a sudden he's completely trusting of CJ's ability. Explain that 180 from a town perspective.
Yet apparently you don't think he's scummy. Mmmmkay.
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On November 30 2012 09:32 Promethelax wrote:
I would be super excited about taking that ability if it was possible and I had an ability which copied abilities directed at me I'd want a huge awesome sauce vig shot. Though Phag is an idiot for wanting it when he had 600 hp.
Well duh yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that he thought CJ was scum throughout D2, never mentioned otherwise, then unequivocally trusts his ability in a last-minute scramble for night-actions.
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On November 30 2012 09:41 GreYMisT wrote:Bit late but 0
Oh snaaaaaaap. What's goin down?
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On November 30 2012 09:42 iamperfection wrote:
i could buy it i post thoughts and change reads all the time.
Also that would be a pretty cool ability to steal if he is telling the truth.
What does this even mean? I mean sure he could be excited as town, but that doesn't make him not scum. Do you honestly find it likely that he 180'd on his "bright red" read on CJ in his notes and immediately trusted a really strange-named ability? Much less an ability/item that isn't present at all in ChronoTrigger wikis, etc?
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On November 30 2012 09:48 iamperfection wrote:
got anyone else besides phagga hapa?
I'd say Risk.nuke on the basis that his play is far too clean this game than what I'm used to. It feels like he's actively covering his tracks.
As far as another read, I'm much more torn on it.
Adam I considered because he pushed the idea that Phagga is town early on for reasons I don't understand. However, his play (even though lurky) seems to match up with his town mentality more than his scum mentality. Put a gun to my head and he's my next read out of everyone else.
StrongandBig I considered because of his "I think Phagga is town but not enough to be on a party" case, which was just really weird. However on meta, SnB is behaving more towards his townie self.
CaveJohnson Is just Drazak and is trolly. Completely null.
VE//Z-Bo are just lurky and null to me. Z-Bo's recent post (dumping all his reads before getting replaced) strikes me as a town-mentality (and it helps that he agrees with me on Phagga). So I guess I'm slightly town on Z-Bo (or whoever the replacement is). VE... completely null. This is so uncharacteristic for him as either allignment.
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On November 30 2012 09:55 Acrofales wrote:
@Hapa: I found your case on Phagga bad. No matter how long you spent on it. Yes, I have my reservations about Phagga, but none of the stuff you mention.
What part of this isn't scummy?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=254#5075
Or this?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=253#5045
Please rationalize his stance on CJ from a town perspective. Good luck with that.
Add that to the fact that I also have my reservations about you, and we are really getting somewhere. I read you as marginally green on D2, but all the reasons I was extremely suspicious of you at the end of D1 are coming crashing back with a vengeance.
Also, you are claiming "I took damage and didn't get healed". Clarity is claiming "you either took no damage, or got healed". One of you is lying, or you got targeted by a bus driver/something else dodgy. Your trying to yell over it that we should not look at you, but at Phagga is making all the alarm bells in my head go off at the same time. I am looking at you. Town should probably also be looking at you.
I find you a very unlikely target for a bus, I think Clarity is not lying. That leaves you lying. Convince me you were not.
Well the shitty thing is that there's no way for me to prove my stance here short of screenshotting my PMs. I told you exactly what happened on my end, and as far as I'm concerned that is that.
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Well it lines up far too neatly for us not to believe so at this point. That being said, it's something that I'm resigned to never figuring out unless someone (kita, host, scum, or otherwise) decides to enlighten us.
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On November 30 2012 10:53 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 10:02 Hapahauli wrote:On November 30 2012 09:55 Acrofales wrote:
@Hapa: I found your case on Phagga bad. No matter how long you spent on it. Yes, I have my reservations about Phagga, but none of the stuff you mention. What part of this isn't scummy? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=254#5075Or this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=253#5045Please rationalize his stance on CJ from a town perspective. Good luck with that. Add that to the fact that I also have my reservations about you, and we are really getting somewhere. I read you as marginally green on D2, but all the reasons I was extremely suspicious of you at the end of D1 are coming crashing back with a vengeance.
Also, you are claiming "I took damage and didn't get healed". Clarity is claiming "you either took no damage, or got healed". One of you is lying, or you got targeted by a bus driver/something else dodgy. Your trying to yell over it that we should not look at you, but at Phagga is making all the alarm bells in my head go off at the same time. I am looking at you. Town should probably also be looking at you.
I find you a very unlikely target for a bus, I think Clarity is not lying. That leaves you lying. Convince me you were not. Well the shitty thing is that there's no way for me to prove my stance here short of screenshotting my PMs. I told you exactly what happened on my end, and as far as I'm concerned that is that. I was talking about your original case. There was 0 mention of his shoddy vote on Drazerk except in passing. That was the case that took you "so long to make" and everybody was ignoring. I had a little mark on Phagga for doing noting D2 except placing a throwaway vote on Drazerk. Looking back, that vote looks even worse in retrospect, so bringing that up is good. However, your first case was just plain terrible. There was very little that requires a scum perspective to explain his D1. In fact, I had him pegged as a slight town read after D1. The "bussing" of Sandroba also is a null read. He was the umpteenth person to sheep Syllo for no-to-very-little reasoning. I have explained what I think of Sandroba votes for no-to-little-reasoning in both my discussion of risk.nuke and my discussion of GK. I feel no need to do so again. I do feel that CJ was complete and utter lynch bait D2 (as Drazerk often is) and scum could easily jump on him (assuming he's not scum himself, which is always a possibility until the endgame post is made or he dies and flips). It's like any other "easy" mislynch that scum like to push, like Kush, Grush, BM, Bluelightz or Risen (yes, I went there). Therefore a Drazerk vote with no reasoning whatsoever is pretty bad. Of course, town also vote for the easy lynchbait, which is why they are so easy for scum: they automatically draw town votes with their play. + Show Spoiler [Drazerk history] +
The main difference between Drazerk and the rest of that list is that Drazerk actually doesn't get mislynched (or lynched at all for that matter). He has some magic quality that makes him look terrible and then slip off everybody's scumometer.
Well it's good that you atleast agree with me. I thought I communicated his stance on CJ pretty well in my original case, but w/e. But I do think my original case plays to this idea that Phagga is sitting back and blending in.
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Oh hai gaiz. Themed games are fun when setup speculation makes everrrrrrrryone think you're scum.
Syllo and Acro are pushing this idea that I'm scum by process of elimination - that I'm the "answer" to the scum strategy. I agree with the strategy, but you're dead wrong about my alignment. Instead, y'all need to take a look at Phagga. In my mind, he's done absolutely nothing to prove himself as town, yet several players have been inexplicably pushing him as a town read. For example, both Adam and SnB have came out of nowhere to push him as a townie - this doesn't seem strange to you at all?
Now I'm not sure exactly what I can say to defend myself, because all this stuff is speculation garbage that I can't do anything about. In fact I'm kinda disturbed that Syllo, of all people, is more content to rely on setup speculation to scumhunt whilst completely ignoring some huge red flags in Phagga's play.
Regarding Phagga's Responses
I'm not satisfied with them. He didn't sufficiently address why he 180'd on CaveJohnson. He's saying that he marked him as null somewhere between D2 and now without ever mentioning it in the thread. And even if he marked him as null, that doesn't explain why he had no distrust whatsoever for CJ's ability-claim.
And to soapbox on scumhunting a bit, I feel that a lot of scum in non-newbie games can be found by looking for players floating under the radar. I've found a lot of success in recent games looking for players who've given me no reason to think they're town. These "null" players are often scum. Phagga fits this very well, and I'm shocked at how he's being ignored by virtually everyone in the thread.
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EPT
