EPTI have 3 games already. Is it ok to subscribe both here and in another game at the same time ?
Newbie Mini Mafia XXX
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Djodref
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I have 3 games already. Is it ok to subscribe both here and in another game at the same time ? | ||
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On November 02 2012 11:45 marvellosity wrote: I'd rather you played one game at a time. I think this game is going to fill up way faster that Sandy game. I guess I should be fine. Also I would like to thank you guys to call me a retard in the previous scumQT  My case against dandel was spot on but nobody took the time to read it. | ||
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##Vote: Alsn | ||
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Whatever read I have on you, I shall conclude with the opposite  | ||
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This is all because of you thrawn by the way  | ||
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With the player list that we have, I don't think we to need to use an anti-lurker policy this time. Nevertheless, the last game is still a great trauma for me, so I'm going to get a little wary if your expected activity level is not matched. Regarding last game, I think we made a poor use of the plurality lynch system. I started an argument with sylver about this the last game and he shut me down because he thought I was mafia. [QUOTE]On October 26 2012 22:56 Djodref wrote: [QUOTE]On October 26 2012 22:47 Dandel Ion wrote: //snip We have plurality lynch system, so we don't need to consolidate, and I have no idea how many people are actually going to vote today... Could you tell us more about why you want to lynch Ini ?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]On October 26 2012 23:05 sylverfyre wrote: /snip Finally just now claiming "not needing to consolidate" is fishy to me too. If we don't consolidate, we're going to have someone get lynched with like 3 votes, reducing scum's need to assist in the lynchwagon as well as improving scum ability to make sure one of their own cannot be lynched - so we're less likely to find scum today, but equally importantly, we would have less information later in the game (and could cause town to go rabid on itself) We want to consolidate. /snip[/QUOTE] I think we should avoid to reduce the possibility for the lynch to only 2 players like we did in D1 last game. Everybody votes for his top scumread and the guys with the more votes gets lynched... At this point, I think we should argue who is the best to lynch or why we shouldn't lynch this one or this one among 3 or 4 players and not only 2. It creates more discussion than a faked majority lynch. | ||
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Sorry for the morning quote failure. | ||
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-Newbie Mini Mafia XXVIII as Cop -Looney Lynching Mini Mafia as mafia pardoner -Newbie Mini Mafia XXIX as VT @ Rad The only potential lurkers that we have in this game are daoud and maybe Obzy (but it doesn't look like it). My problem with your policy is that it is directed towards these players in this game. What we have to be wary of is active lurking (refer to the mafiaQT in the previous game) and people blending in. Do you see anyone else possibly lurking ? | ||
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I don't think this one deserves a FoS. When Alsn says that it is technically a lie, that's just Alsn arguing about math and logic. @ everyone I'm going to be around at deadline but it is 10am for me so please expect me to take some time to catch up with the thread and not being able to think very clearly. I was seriously pissed off last game when you were jumping at me for my waking-up posts. | ||
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That's my problem with a lurker policy this game, I think that it can be used only against daoud or Obzy (maybe sylverfire). I think it would be much better to call directly these players for lurking rather agreeing on a policy which could be a perfect excuse for the mafia to push a mislynch on them, assuming that they are town. It's a small game and if you have a problem with the activity level of anyone, you can call them on it, no need for a policy. | ||
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On November 03 2012 11:07 debears wrote: @djo Why are you addressing lurker policy still while me and alsn are arguing? Afraid to jump in and actually talk about something that doesnt make you commit? @ debears Your statement was incorrect, Alsn called you for it. Your FoS was a bit overreacting in my opinion. I didn't like him using the red font neither but he has his reasons for it. Last game was horrible for us. | ||
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On November 03 2012 11:12 Rad wrote: @Djo If no one lurks, the lurker policy has done its job. That's all it's there to do, stop people from lurking. Nothing more, nothing less. Let's move on shall we? The policy prevents mafia players from lurking but it doesn't stop anyone from being inactive. And the policy is the best excuse ever for mafia to lynch an inactive town player with IRL issues. This game is full of active players and small enough to call directly a player on active lurking, blending in or pure lurking. I don't think we need the policy and I'm going to get very suspicious on players lynching according to the policy only. | ||
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On November 03 2012 10:11 Clarity_nl wrote: Hopefully we won't have to deal with lurkers altogether, but yes. A roco or inig lynch instead of a daoud lynch would've been much better for us. So yeah, information is good which means we want people talking which means policy lynch on lurkers is a good thing unless we have an exceptional read on someone. But I wouldn't enforce any policy other than that. I will be here and active before every lynch. @ Clarity What other policies did you have in mind ? | ||
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I think I'm making a good point and I'm feeling like you are trying to shush me. But I would agree that it's not good to spend to much time discussing it too much. What else do you want to talk about ? | ||
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On November 03 2012 11:34 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: From this post onward, nobody is allowed to discuss policy lynching. @ Cheese I didn't see this post before posting mine. And I still think I have a good point and I'm going to discuss it if I feel like it | ||
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On November 03 2012 11:42 debears wrote: I want to talk about you and your concentration on policy that is unwarranted. Furthermore you seem like you really don't want to address me @ debears I don't see your posts while I'm writing mine. I'm going to use another tab from now on. I don't like the policy and I started this argument with Rad. I think we are close to finish this discussion but I want to make sure that our positions are clear to each other and everyone else. | ||
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On November 03 2012 11:12 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Mafia usually wear hats. He's so adamant that he most certainly does NOT wear a hat. Therefore, scumtell. @ Cheesecake Please refrain from joking when talking about scumtells. It's confusing. FoS Cheese | ||
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I agree that he was making a joke but please consider the motivations for it. Town motivations I don't see town motivations for making a joke about a scumtell Mafia motivations Creates confusion and disturbs the thread. Allows to influence our read on debears while looking clean | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:00 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: The logic is strong with this one. @ Cheese I was re-reading the thread and I really didn't like this "it's a scumtell" joke. I'm not against jokes but scumtells are quite serious business. I've got my eyes on you. | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:04 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: You also neglect to realize that my joke was in a RESPONSE to his joke. (I don't wear hats). You're really trying to dig where there is nothing. @ Cheese Ok, you had motivations for doing this joke but it doesn't really help town while it could be done with mafia motivation. And, at least, I'm trying to dig something. Would you prefer me to discuss how we should use plurality lynch ? | ||
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On November 03 2012 11:54 debears wrote: Yeah. Definitely unwarranted fos FOS Djo 1) he was joking 2) it was obvious he was joking 3) it wasnt confusing @ debears So, it's ok for you to be aggressive in the early game but it's not ok for me ? Would you say that joking about scumtells is ok ? | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:15 debears wrote: Dig something up? Why? Because you have nothing to actually accuse people with since you're scum? I've clearly explained the mafia motivations I've found for his joke. I'm far to be able to be certain of Cheese alignment but he is leaning slightly scummy right now, hence the FoS. It's also a warning for him to not joke about scum tells in the future. I find you very jumpy and very prompt to call me scum. Are you seriously that sure of my alignment this early in the game ? Why so aggressive ? Could you explain me your motivations ? | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:17 Rad wrote: @debears I don't remember too many jokes from cheese throughout last game. Just pregame. Oh, and his "Sandy" response to the hurricane question. Anyway, it doesn't matter, I get a null read from his joke. @djo Why are you bringing up the idea of a discussion on plurality lynch? That's not even in our control, is it? Host said plurality, so it's plurality, end of story, unless I'm missing something? @ Rad It was sarcastic. I wanted us to discuss how we should use the mechanics of the plurality lynch at our advantage in this game but I think that the time for discussing this king of thing is over. I wanted Cheesecake to understand, if he is town, that I could also spark some discussion with this FoS. | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:21 debears wrote: He did joke in game. I can't quote on my phone. Here are some from memory "Holy meta argument batbears" "A wild djo appears" "Lurkerception" "Why djodref is scum : a compilation of quotes by mr. Cheesecake" @ debears You just have showed that he was using jokes when they were serving his scum agenda. | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:23 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: There is no reason to tell us that you were reading the thread. We should know you are. This is the exact thing that Nack picked up about my scumplay last game. "This game is serious business" It's a couple hours into the first day, and most of the thread isn't even around. You're really trying to come off as town by plucking this insignificant little fact that everyone else giggled about and passed on by. And - mafia motivation for making a joke? We should get some George Carlins as scum if there is mafia motivation for making someone snicker a little. Also: My humor was mainly kept to the QT last game. Only a few stupid things in the thread were let through. /Engagecheesecakeseriousmode @ Cheese Your joke didn't pose any problem for me the first time (same for everyone I suppose) but I found it weird the second time I past through it. I have no problems with jokes and I'm making some myself. They are a null tell in general. But joking about scum tells is not really acceptable in my opinion and I've explained the possible mafia motivations I've seen behind it. | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:29 Djodref wrote: I bet you were not comfortable while posting your case so you added this little touch to free up your guilty conscience. @ debears You just have showed that he was using jokes when they were serving his scum agenda. @ Cheese Please find my comments in bold font in the quote. | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:38 debears wrote: So first you say his jokes last game served a scum agenda, which means they are scummy.. now you say jokes are a null tell, unless they are specifically joking about scumtells. Riddle me this. Why havent you fosed me for my joke fos on cheese in the beginning? I didn't like this one as well but I have noticed that you didn't use bold font so it guessed it was not a serious one. It was your reaction to marv flavor also. Jokes are in general a null tell but some of them can serve a mafia agenda. Please look again at my comments regarding your quotes from Cheese. | ||
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The difference for me is also in the follow-up. Maybe both of your jokes were not serious but Cheese followed his joke by attacking you over semantics (the "he called me a liar" thing). | ||
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I'm pretty sure that the following quote was totally serving your mafia agenda in the last game. But I guess I should better trust you because I don't really see why you should be dishonest right now about it. On October 29 2012 13:24 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Holy meta argument Batbears. Are you saying that Dandel under pressure is basically = Kush in terms of meta? Let's take a look at the second one On October 28 2012 09:20 Rad wrote: Djo NOW YOU SHOW UP? On October 28 2012 09:21 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: A wild Djo appears? I don't know if you have seen Rad post or not before posting yours but I really felt that you were both accusing me of active lurking. Why the lolwut by the way ? What did you not understand in my comment ? | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:56 Clarity_nl wrote: I agree with you. The joking is a null tell and we should note it and move on, that was the point of my post. I'm actually more interested why djo talking about the fact that it's a plurality lynch, he never actually talked about it, he just mentioned it. What of it, Djodref? @ Clarity Please check my opening post again. The poor format made it not easy to read and follow but I was already talking about plurality lynch here. | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:48 debears wrote: Also answer my very important question to you @ debears Did I answer your question ? I'm not sure which one you were talking about. I guessed it was the one about "why cheese and not me?" I need to go to attend a wedding at Souel Gardien Hoteal soon so I would like to know you have more questions. | ||
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On November 03 2012 13:04 Clarity_nl wrote: Okay re-reading your post you're saying we shouldn't focus on one/two people, instead considering everyone and not consolidate on a lynch? @ Clarity Exactly, I think you everyone should just vote for his top scumread while giving enough reason to do so and then we start again from there and see who is likely to be lynched, be it 2 or 3 players. I think it's the best way to use plurality lynch. Considering only 2 possibilities narrows the discussion and allows mafia players to have some excuse to lynch town (cf Cheese last game lynching daoud in the daoud/ini match-up). The downfall is that the end of the day could be a bit messy. | ||
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On November 03 2012 13:09 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @Djo The second part of the first quote isn't a joke. It's an analogy. Therefore it has nothing to do with anything. The second quote: Pokemon reference, it means I think of you as a pokemon. Pokemon are innocent and cute; I'm not casting aspersions on you in the least. Yes, @obsQT I just mentioned pokemon. We could go with this WIFOM crap all day. These "jokes" means absolutely nothing. Are we seriously still talking about a failboat joke? Stop this incessant attempt to tunnel me--it bears no weight at all because it is probably one of the most subjective things one could possibly focus on. Especially since it's coming from another game entirely. I declare this useless argument over *gavel slam*. @ Cheese I'll stop tunneling you when I'm satisfied with your answers. Why do you want us to stop discussing ? This discussion has derived from its original point to go something quite useless, I agree. My point is that you could have used these jokes to make me look bad. I know this was a pokemon reference but I think "a wild Djo appears" was implying active lurking, especially in the context of the thread, rather than implying that I was innocent as a pokemon. My point is that jokes can be used by mafia to cast suspicion on a player without looking like you are doing it. It's a great tool used this way. | ||
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On November 03 2012 13:22 debears wrote: seriously.....why are we having to explain this? 1) Scumhunt 2) Vote for your top scumread 3) When the voting comes down to 2 candidates and lynch is near, pick one of two said candidates and give reasoning why you're voting them Is that clear enough for all of you to understand? Please stop talking about policy @ debears My point is that it would benefit us to consider more than 2 candidates for the lynch. Anyway it's too late to discuss about it now, I was just answering Clarity's question about it. By the way it's not policy, it's lynch mechanics | ||
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On November 03 2012 13:30 Clarity_nl wrote: I.... didn't even consider that. Yes, that actually makes much more sense. I was exactly this. | ||
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On November 03 2012 13:28 debears wrote: More semantics, anyways it's useless. What do you think of Obsy's, Dau0d's, and Sylver's epic uselessness so far? @ debears The game has just started. Regarding daoud and sylver, the longer it takes for them to join the discussion, the bigger my expectations are for their future input. Obsy has to step up a little bit. @Obsy if you are town, you should definitively ask Hapa for help | ||
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Regarding your pokemon joke explanation, I didn't like how you focused on the content instead of precising what were your motivations for this joke at that time. It would be acceptable if you just told me that it was genuine or an attempt to frame me (it occurred during last game after all). Nevertheless, I would agree that we should drop this discussion. But you are still on my radar. | ||
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On November 03 2012 13:48 debears wrote: So you're saying Obsy is town????? Obvious scumtell omg guyszzzz instalynch him Lol NMM XXVIII Never forget @ debears You really made me chuckle with this one ^^ | ||
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On November 03 2012 15:30 sylverfyre wrote: @Obzy I'm casting suspicion with my vote. I find it far more effective than FOS, which can be more difficult to keep track of. Votes, the mod will keep track of for us. I understand he's the most active person. If that was 3 pages of posts with useful content, I'd have no issue. It's like 2 pages of fluff and 1 page of content, and the 1 page of content could be condensed if he didn't jam the "post" button after finishing a sentence, when he fully intends to immediately write another one. @Rad - you were friggin brilliant D2/N2 last game. It's a shame you used your only bullet N1.  @ sylverfyre So let me sum up the situation. You join the thread and directly vote for debears mainly because there is a lot of fluff in it. Then you say that you are voting him to "cast suspicion with your vote". I'm sorry but I'm voting somebody when I find them suspicious, not to cast suspicion on him. Do you know who is voting innocent players to cast suspicion on them ? Mafia. (Not sure if debears is innocent in this case, I have seen things I don't really like in his filter) I'm taking this for a scumslip and the most suspicious thing I have seen in this thread so far. ##Vote sylverfire @ Clarity It answers your question | ||
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On November 03 2012 19:36 da0ud wrote: Djo seems to be against policy lynch on lurkers, I agree as well. This policy is the easiest tool for scum to back their vote. However Djodref is the only one both saying he is against it and in the same post stating name of potential lurkers so he can actually put focus on them. @ daoud I think the game is small enough to use some direct tools to pressure lurkers instead of a policy. According to this, I have absolutely no problem with debears vote on you. I was just identifying you as potential lurkers, not potential targets. Anyway, it should be easy enough to get away from this position: you just have to regularly post some content in the thread. | ||
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I was concerned with policy because everyone was supportive of the "Lynch a Lurker" policy when I am not. So I've tried to argue with Rad over it because I think he is one of the greatest supporters of the policy (see last game). I agree that I might have had this discussing for too long. Regarding the "Cheese joke argument", I've picked something in the thread that I didn't like and purposely made a big fuss about it to put pressure on Cheese and to spark some discussion. You could argue that we end up arguing about useless things but I wouldn't say so. As you have noticed, debears defended Cheese and attacked me at the same time while I was tunneling him. It could be useful information for the future | ||
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On November 03 2012 10:21 debears wrote: @obsy Its mafia favored compared to the last setup. Only 9 players means a quicker game. A quicker game is better foe mafia since they don't have to fake their townieness for so long. Also look at the roles like medic. Medic can't target the same person twice (was it also that he can't target himself? I'm on my phone and i really don't want to check @ debears So, are you saying that the fact that we have a medic which cannot target the same person twice is such a big imbalance that this game is obviously mafia favored or are you role-fishing ? I'm not sure why you mention this in this post, could you elaborate ? | ||
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I didn't ignore the deb/Alsn argument. I've just thought that it was not such a big deal. Please look at the time stamps and be more careful when you read the thread. On November 03 2012 10:50 Djodref wrote: @ debaers I don't think this one deserves a FoS. When Alsn says that it is technically a lie, that's just Alsn arguing about math and logic. @ everyone I'm going to be around at deadline but it is 10am for me so please expect me to take some time to catch up with the thread and not being able to think very clearly. I was seriously pissed off last game when you were jumping at me for my waking-up posts. On November 03 2012 11:07 debears wrote: @djo Why are you addressing lurker policy still while me and alsn are arguing? Afraid to jump in and actually talk about something that doesnt make you commit? Also not that debears call me for it after my first post about it but the thread was moving quite fast at that time. | ||
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Making list makes you look like as an active contributor while you are not really committing on any player. From a list post, it's easy to blend in and find some reasons to vote for the possible lynch candidates. And I also think it would be better for you to focus on your scumreads rather than dispatch your attention. If you are town, of course | ||
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No, your post was fine, I was just giving you an advice. And I was indeed talking about your post summing up your reads. Maybe it should be better if you focused on one or two players. | ||
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I had to look up in the dictionary to be sure ^^ This coupled to the fact that his reasons to vote debears are insufficient in my eyes (you vote someone for some facts, not because he is fluffy without showing where he is fluffy) made sylverfire my top scumread right now. | ||
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Why do you defend him ? How can you know his intentions ? The reason he has given us for his vote is his intent to "cast suspicion" upon debears because his filter is full of fluff, according to him. You should better have waited for sylverfire to defend himself for this one because you might just have given him a rope to get out of his situation, | ||
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Are you saying that I purposely misinterpret what sylver has said and done to attack him ? Could you clarify where you think I am wrong ? | ||
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On November 03 2012 23:33 debears wrote: Idk how you get that I'm role fishing from that. 1) I talked about the speed of the game and number of players being mafia favored 2) Combined with the roles setup, the game is pretty mafia favored imo How do you get that I'm role fishing for that when I in no way ask anyone if they are blue? @ debears Maybe you were waiting for a possible medic to confirm you the fact that he cannot heal himself. I would expect a medic to carefully read his role's rules and I'm expecting you to know that medics usually cannot heal themselves. But you are asking this question nevertheless. I'm agreeing that the speed of this game is benefit the mafia but I don't see why the role setup would be mafia favored. It is only because the medic cannot heal the same person twice ? | ||
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On November 03 2012 23:35 da0ud wrote: Yes. Explanation of where I think you are wrong is in the previous post : the same one you said i am defending Slyfire and he can use it as a rope to start his own defense. What is the point of your question if you already replied to its own answer ? @ daoud Ok, so you are not defending sylver but attacking me for misinterpreting the thread. Could you please tell me exactly where I misinterpreted the thread ? Show me it in a quote so I can be more precise. | ||
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On November 03 2012 23:48 debears wrote: That, with no vig, no vet, yet the Mafia still have the same power roles for possiblities, except the godfather. Oh, and roleblocks aren't notified. Mainly it's the number of players and speed of the game combined with only having 2 mafia @ debears I think that cop and jailkeeper are powerful roles, we might not have both of them though. Vig is not so good in newbie games (could you confirm this one, Rad?). Please also note that a framer couldn't use his power on his mafia partner. Anyway, I don't think the setup is imbalanced from a role point of view and I was surprised that you were only mentioning the medic. I'm not totally satisfied with your explanations but it was a minor thing. I'm more interested in sylverfire and daoud right now. Can the framer frame himself ? | ||
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On November 03 2012 23:59 debears wrote: @Djo What do you think of my points on Sylver? Well, I have voted for sylver before you for a different scumslip so I definitively agree Anyway they are good points, the scumslip you have found is better than mine, his vote on you is quite unfounded and he has also totally forgot to mention me jumping on Cheese in his post. I think the chances for him to be scum are great. | ||
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On November 04 2012 00:12 Rad wrote: Regarding your bolded question to me, what do you want me to confirm? Define "good." Good for town winning or good for me having a blast? Cause I had a blast, even though I got the wrong shot, it was so fun trying to figure out who to use it on, and I submitted the kill request the very last second I could (probably why the night post took longer, I bet thrawn had to rewrite it). Had I gotten a scum with the shot, who knows what that would have done to me, hell it might have pushed my confirmation bias even further. Certainly I would have centered in on cheese 100% if kush flipped scum that game. Anyway, "good for town"? I have no idea. Good for getting me super interested last game? You bet. Also, it taught me some lessons I would not have learned otherwise. @ Rad Of course I was meaning good for town The risk of having of town player killed by a vigilante is greater in newbie games so I don't think this role really benefits the town. I wanted to take last game as an example so that's why I was mentioning you. Anyway, let's drop this right now and focus and more important matters. I'm urging you to answer debears and give your input on the latest events in the thread | ||
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The problem is that he didn't even mention these points. The reasons he has stated were that debears was posting mainly fluff. And what about the other scumslip where he says that he wants to cast suspicion upon debears ? | ||
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Ok, good point. Urging might not have been the best word I could have used but please remind that I'm not an english native speaker. I was not getting suspicious of your for not answering. Take your time ^^ | ||
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On November 04 2012 00:31 da0ud wrote: I did not say you misinterpreted the thread, I just said you did take too fast conclusions in my opinion. I like more the case against Sylver by Debears than yours. @ daoud Ok, sorry for the misunderstanding. Debears has indeed better points than mine against sylver. I think the main point is the inherent contradiction in his post. "dedication among the townies" -> scumslip or gives a town read on people with a lot of posts (i.e. debears, Cheese and me) "I don't know what to think about Alsn or debears" -> null read on them "the vote on debears for the fluff in his posts and his fast FoS on Alsn" -> debears is now suspicious in his eyes | ||
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I don't know debears alignment. I'm already saying it in the post where I vote against you. I think town players should not use their vote to cast suspicion upon someone. Town players should build cases to convince everybody to lynch the player they find the most suspicious. You have the right to be suspicious of debears. But I think you have to bring better reasons to persuade us to do so. If you think that casting suspicion upon him is enough and expect other players to build a case against debears for you, then I would say that you are mafia. Why did you use the word townies instead of players ? | ||
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On November 03 2012 14:10 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: *Sigh* Of course I'm focused on defending myself. I started to post some stuff you on Debears in regards to Alsn posting about you, but then Djo proceeds to tunnel me. Here's the obligitory OMGUS case on Djo. I learned a lot of stuff from Nack last game, despite him being an arrogant SOB. I made this exact mistake last game as scum, "Djo is not off the hook" thing. He wants to ensure that his suspicions for me are known. As town, he would not have to make this statement because he would have faith that we already know that. Again, another exact mistake I made last game. Feeling the need to tell people that you have been reading the thread. For the second part, he's assuring that we realize that he knows this game is important to him. As town, he wouldn't feel the need to tell us that the game is important. Then there is the entire "joke" case he makes, which is, no matter how you slice it, a terrible argument. He summons it up from nowhere and makes a huge deal about it. I want to drop the conversation because it's irrelevant and cluttering the thread. He insists that there is something there, but I reiterate, there is not. Need I even mention how utterly hypocritical this post is? ##FOS: Djodref @ Cheese Here is my response regarding your FoS on me. I've inserted your post in the spoiler. First of all, let me say that using OMGUS to vote people is more a mafia trait than a town trait. Dandel has been really OMGUsing me last game when I have made my case against me. Anyway, you have your reasons, so let me address them. Regarding the "you are still on my radar" part, I've been tunneling you for a while and I have not been fully satisfied with your explanations. Nevertheless, we agreed that we should better drop our argument because I was going too far and started to post some posts irrelevant to this game. I was just expressing my opinion on you after our argument which could have been different if you had provided me better explanations. About me re-reading the thread, I was trying to explain you and everyone the context for my sudden FoS on you. You attacked me on the logic but I think the logic was fine because debears had FoS Alsn and I had FoS you for different reasons. In fact, I've realized that I had just dropped a bomb in the thread. That was my initial intent to spark discussion but I got bad feedback about it so I wanted to give better context. To finish about jokes, I'm totally for using jokes in this game But I've been using jokes on purpose when I was mafia to buddy some other players or to lightly cast suspicion on them. So I'm wary of the "scum tell" jokes. In France, we say that there is also a part of truth in jokes and lies And I've been an hypocrite, I admit it. But I really laughed to debears joke ^^ | ||
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On November 04 2012 01:33 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2012 01:20 Djodref wrote: @ sylverfire I don't know debears alignment. I'm already saying it in the post where I vote against you. I think town players should not use their vote to cast suspicion upon someone. Town players should build cases to convince everybody to lynch the player they find the most suspicious. You have the right to be suspicious of debears. But I think you have to bring better reasons to persuade us to do so. If you think that casting suspicion upon him is enough and expect other players to build a case against debears for you, then I would say that you are mafia. Why did you use the word townies instead of players ? So, you say that town players shouldn't vote as a pressure move / attract suspicion to someone? You used your vote last game on Inig as vote pressure: On October 26 2012 09:16 Djodref wrote: I have already my eyes on you and I think that your posts lack content and scumhunting. You are my top scumread right now. Let's assume that the lurkers are going to get modkill today, who would you like to lynch ? Vote-pressuring you ## Vote Inig Same with Nack: On October 28 2012 22:44 Djodref wrote: We still have no insight from Nackht at all. He has only said that he was sure that Kush was scum. I'm not sure about Cheese anymore. I'm null on him right now. His case shows good scumhunting efforts, even if they go in the wrong direction. Him using a "djo attempt to discredit me" paragraph in his case is a towntell for me because it shows that he has natural sense of innocence (in opposition of the usual self-culpability). If he still believes I am scum after my answers to his case, I want him to look for my potential scumbuddies. No by association by the way because I am town and anyway you should wait for me to flip to start this kind of thing. I want dandel to decide if I am scum or SK and bring consequent proofs to his case. I'm very very wary of Nackht. He has given us nothing (expect him being sure that Kush was scum) so far and I don't understand why a town replacement would be retaining info like he does. The other thing speaking against him is that I don't have a strong scumread at the moment and it makes the probability for the lurkers to be mafia higher. So I hope that we have a modkill on Roco today. I'm going to vote pressure him to make nackht talk. Keeping this vote on him until he gives us a complete assessment of what is going on here according to him. He promised it but he has just given us a "lol" so far. ##Vote nackhtjogger You obviously believe in vote pressure to cast suspicion from a townie perspective. I have no problem with people using their vote to pressure people into talking or whatever reason they have if they state a reasonable explanation for a pressure vote. My problem with sylverfire post is that the initial reasons he gave for his vote were that debears filter was fluffy and that he cast a quick FoS on Alsn. Then he said that he also wanted to cast suspicion upon debears. He never said that he was using his vote as a pressure vote in the first place. The regrettable thing is that other people said this before he could defend himself. According to me, if you think that a player is suspicious enough to vote against him, you should persuade other players to vote for him, which sylverfire has failed to do imho. But I might not understand exactly the meaning of "cast suspicion", I see this expression as quite pejorative. | ||
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On November 04 2012 01:08 sylverfyre wrote: /snip And finally, on your final point: I'm not saying townies will be more dedicated this game. I'm saying PLAYERS will be more dedicated this game. Why? The game filled up instantly and we don't have anyone from last game who lurked like crazy except for da0ud (who was on vacation, and is presumably more available now. I hope.) We have no Roco69 players this game, even da0ud has posted some content now. I don't think we'll have a day 1 lynch with anything less than 9 votes cast. Your scumslip is grasping at straws and making up scum tells is really bad for town. Leaving my vote on you. /snip He denies the fact that he used the word "townies". In my opinion, a town player would have said "I've used the word townies but I meant players, I've slipped, my bad". Last game, I've accepted my slip and explained why I've slipped. I think it is mafia reaction to deny it like that. | ||
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On November 04 2012 01:55 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: - He never said anything about the FoS on Debears, I did. He just said that his reaction was odd to Alsn. - In you're post about Inig, your explanation was "lack of content / scumhunting" ---> hardly a reason. Especially to have other people vote for him. Same with Nack, nobody else voted for him and you didn't persuade anyone else to do so. - In both instances, your prime goal was to cast suspicion. Get people interested in what Inig was doing, get people interested in what Nack was lurking about. Your logic is backward this game. @ Cheese FoS on debears ? Where did I say that ? To be honest, my case on Inig was far-fetched last game and I knew it. I was really finding Inig suspicious at that time but he didn't really deserve a case. I was in a bad position and I wanted to show everybody that I was scumhunting. But, of course, I was not going to say something like that. Also, you are wrong about my goals. When I'm saying that I'm pressure vote someone, my first goal is to put pressure on the player to react and start posting if he was lurking. Last game, I had no intent to lynch nachktjogger at the end of D2 nor did I find him really suspicious. But here again, it was a bluff, so he was not going say it in plain sight. I make a distinction between pressure votes and suspicion votes. I don't think that sylver voting intent was to put pressure on debears to force him to post less fluff. If sylver wanted to cast suspicion upon debears, a FoS would have been more appropriate. I understand now that you cast suspicion upon anyone while voting him, whatever your reason is. But this is a consequence of your vote and it should not be the reason why you vote someone. | ||
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On November 03 2012 14:44 sylverfyre wrote: Holy shit, this flavor. What. If we're gonna lynch a lurker, I'd rather it be early game than late, at least. But I think that we have more... dedication among the townies this game. <snip> On November 04 2012 01:08 sylverfyre wrote: <snip> I'm not saying townies will be more dedicated this game. I'm saying PLAYERS will be more dedicated this game. <snip> Is this not denial ? On a side note, regarding my seriousness in this game, it's because I don't want to play like last game where everybody was suspicious of me. But it doesn't work out so well  | ||
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He's talking about the reaction of debears against Alsn just after his vote on him. I'm pretty sure that it is a reference to the FoS. On November 03 2012 14:44 sylverfyre wrote: <snip> ##Vote debears Your fluff, and your reaction against Alsn seem odd to me. Also, your claim of always being perfect about on at lynchtime. Now we can't even use it (in the future) as a scumtell on you because it'd turn into WIFOM. + Show Spoiler [off-topic complaint] + TL went down for several minutes as I'm typing this. Frustrating, can't finish the post because I want to check more filters! | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:25 debears wrote: That is a great point. Djo why are you so concerned about not being suspicious? @ debears Because of last game... duh | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:27 Clarity_nl wrote: I'd just like to point out that da0ud dissapeared off the face of the earth, and I'm not happy about this at all. @ Clarity It's 1.30 am in Hong Kong and it's Saturday night I guess he might be out...I would be partying if I was not sick | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:37 debears wrote: Very well. It still seems he's uneager to engage with me. He pretty much just sat on the sidelines when you and I were going at it @ debears Regarding your first argument with Alsn, I didn't want to take part of it because I thought it was not really important. Just the usual stuff to get the game started. I also wanted to discuss about policy because I thought I had a good point while everybody was inclined to enforce the "Lynch a Lurker" policy. Also, right now, we are on the same side regarding sylver, so I'm not going to focus on you. Does it seem reasonable to you ? | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:35 Clarity_nl wrote: Perhaps... I guess I just like it when people mention they're leaving and will be back in X time. That way when you question them, it'll look weird if they say "be back in 12 hours guys!" without addressing the fact that you're questioning them. @ Clarity Why are you concerned about daoud not being in the thread but not about sylver ? | ||
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How can I be sheeping when I voted you before debears ? I'm still thinking that you should better have used a FoS rather than a vote but I understand now what you wanted to do when you said "I want to cast suspicion on him with my vote". I didn't like at all how your explanation for your slip.+ Show Spoiler + On November 04 2012 02:21 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese Is this not denial ? On a side note, regarding my seriousness in this game, it's because I don't want to play like last game where everybody was suspicious of me. But it doesn't work out so well | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:05 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: He's not denying using the word townies. He's denying the connotation of the word townies. There is no motivation for anyone to outright deny that they used a word, because, well, it's written in stone. Top scumread atm (Woa, is this last game already?) He's still smileydjo, but seasoned with something I can't recognize this game. He's contradicting his own town play and, previously, trying to nitpick at me for little to no reason. @ Cheese The word "townies" doesn't connote as "players". Kush helped me to understand this in my very first game on these forums. People don't use townies when they can use players. The meaning is different. It is a slip, so now we have to decided if it is a scumslip or not. The way sylver reacted to it makes me thing that it is a scumslip indeed. | ||
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On November 04 2012 03:35 sylverfyre wrote: I was trying to say that inactivity wouldn't be a problem. On the part of the entire town. I was looking at the player list, and the speed at which people signed up for the game, and making that judgement. I guess it could be construed as a slip to say townies. But if the entire player base is active, then the town doesn't need to worry about lurker policy, do they? I said townies, because Inactivity isn't a problem for scum. They won last game because of it. Inactivity is a problem for town, town is the only faction that needs to worry about it. I don't think it will be a problem this game - I'm forecasting we aren't going to have any massive lurk problems (like Roco). Maybe it was a slip, but I think it reflects exactly what I was thinking at the time. (Inactivity = problem for townies. Low inactivity = good for townies) @ sylver So you have used townies first, then you said that you meant players and now you are saying that townies was the right word to use ? Do you have any town reads to share ? | ||
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I want you to comment on these posts before you ask Obzy or other people what they think about my stance on "vote pressure". Are you trying to dismiss my explanations for what I wrote ? Please check the spoilers and read carefully this time. I'm sorry for the tone of this post but you pissed me off by being unable to see the reference to debears FoS against Alsn in sylverfire post. + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2012 01:47 Djodref wrote: I have no problem with people using their vote to pressure people into talking or whatever reason they have if they state a reasonable explanation for a pressure vote. My problem with sylverfire post is that the initial reasons he gave for his vote were that debears filter was fluffy and that he cast a quick FoS on Alsn. Then he said that he also wanted to cast suspicion upon debears. He never said that he was using his vote as a pressure vote in the first place. The regrettable thing is that other people said this before he could defend himself. According to me, if you think that a player is suspicious enough to vote against him, you should persuade other players to vote for him, which sylverfire has failed to do imho. But I might not understand exactly the meaning of "cast suspicion", I see this expression as quite pejorative. + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2012 02:11 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese FoS on debears ? Where did I say that ? To be honest, my case on Inig was far-fetched last game and I knew it. I was really finding Inig suspicious at that time but he didn't really deserve a case. I was in a bad position and I wanted to show everybody that I was scumhunting. But, of course, I was not going to say something like that. Also, you are wrong about my goals. When I'm saying that I'm pressure vote someone, my first goal is to put pressure on the player to react and start posting if he was lurking. Last game, I had no intent to lynch nachktjogger at the end of D2 nor did I find him really suspicious. But here again, it was a bluff, so he was not going say it in plain sight. I make a distinction between pressure votes and suspicion votes. I don't think that sylver voting intent was to put pressure on debears to force him to post less fluff. If sylver wanted to cast suspicion upon debears, a FoS would have been more appropriate. I understand now that you cast suspicion upon anyone while voting him, whatever your reason is. But this is a consequence of your vote and it should not be the reason why you vote someone. | ||
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I told you to focus on some players and to vote for your top scumread. If you try to think by yourself, you might be able to find one player who hasn't any vote against him yet. In this case, due to the plurality lynch, he could be lynched even with a few votes, including yours. I don't see any contradiction with you focusing and how we should use plurality lynch. Please tell me if you didn't understand my explanation. I'm afraid I wasn't very clear... | ||
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Do you mind discussing why I'm suspicious in your eyes. I've just skimmed through your filter and I didn't see you making points against me. I must say that I've skimmed very quickly... @ everyone Nobody is commenting on sylver latest explanation for his slip ? He first said that he meant players and now he is saying that townies was the right one to use. | ||
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1My main goal with the sudden FoS on Cheese was to spark some discussion. I said it was confusing but it was more a pretext. The truth is that I didn't like it. Using sarcasm was not a brillaint idea but agin, I wanted to show that I was trying to spark discussion. 2.It's very important to state your reasons for your vote. Sylverfire failed to explain what he wanted from debears with his vote so I didn t see it as a pressurr vote. It turned out that it was more like a super FoS. I'm not against pressure voting but you have to state clearly what is your goal with it. Voting for casting suspicion upon someone sounds like voting for voting in my opinion. 3. It was me indeed but I don t think we need the policy for this game. The activity level is high and you can vote for anyone if you have a problem. It works better this way I think. | ||
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What I called a pressure vote is when you are trying to change the behavior of the target with your vote. For example, debears had nothing against daoud except for the fact that he was not posting and voted him to make him post. This was purely a pressure vote. I did the same thing last game and I have no problem with this kind of thing when you state it clearly. My problem with sylver vote against debears is that I found the reasons for voting him a little weak if he was voting him because he was suspicious of him. Also he didn't say at first that he wanted debears to stop to post some fluff. He just wanted to cast suspicion on him. So a FoS would have been better. Anyway, he was not clear when casting his vote and that's my main reproach against him. | ||
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It should be clear right now that my goal was to try to spark some discussion. If you find my FoS suspicious, please tell me me what is the mafia motivayion behind it. | ||
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Right now, I'm more concerned by the different explanations that sylverfire has given for his slip than the way he casted his vote on debears. The follow up I was expecting from a town sylver would have been a case on debears but he unvoted and we have nothing new from him so far. | ||
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On November 04 2012 05:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Your motivation behind it? To try to show that you were sparking discussion. The thing is it did create some discussion and put me at the center at the attention for some time. Definitively best mafia move ever (this is a sarcasm). | ||
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Please check the different explanations sylver gave for his slip and comment it. | ||
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On November 04 2012 09:59 Obzy wrote: To clarify- I meant that you're clearly reading the thread actively, but you hadn't really had a tendency to comment on anything except things involving Djo. Active as in, at your computer. Semi-lurking as in, posting enough to not be called out for lurking. It was a bad word choice though. Thanks for the reads, that's what I was looking for. On November 04 2012 09:59 Obzy wrote: To clarify- I meant that you're clearly reading the thread actively, but you hadn't really had a tendency to comment on anything except things involving Djo. Active as in, at your computer. Semi-lurking as in, posting enough to not be called out for lurking. It was a bad word choice though. Thanks for the reads, that's what I was looking for. @ Cheesecake I think Obzy has just accused you of active lurking. What do you have to respond to that ? | ||
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On November 04 2012 12:20 da0ud wrote: I am just waking up and I still have 8 pages to read and I don't like that post. Look at the timestamp on my timezone and see why I am not active while you guys at the opposite side of earth are all awake and posting 10 messages a minute. Be sure I would love to be awake at the same time as you guys. @ daoud The timestamps are all converted in local time for the users. Anyway, TL displays the time in South Korea (KST) in his banner so they can use it if they want to know what time it is in Hong Kong. My guess is KST minus 1 hour, am I right ? | ||
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On November 04 2012 05:40 Djodref wrote: @ Rad 1My main goal with the sudden FoS on Cheese was to spark some discussion. I said it was confusing but it was more a pretext. The truth is that I didn't like it.Using sarcasm was not a brilliant idea but again, I wanted to show that I was trying to spark discussion. 2.It's very important to state your reasons for your vote. Sylverfire failed to explain what he wanted from debears with his vote so I didn't see it as a pressure vote. It turned out that it was more like a super FoS. I'm not against pressure voting but you have to state clearly what is your goal with it. Voting for casting suspicion upon someone sounds like voting for voting in my opinion. 3. It was me indeed but I don t think we need the policy for this game. The activity level is high and you can vote for anyone if you have a problem. It works better this way I think. I'll try to explain what I meant with the sentence in font bold because I think you guys are misinterpreting it. First of all, please remember that, at the time I drop my bomb, there is not much to discuss in the thread. So I spontaneously and stupidly attacked someone head on for something that I didn't like. Then I felt that it was going to fire back at me, so I wanted you to understand why I dropped a FoS like that without plainly saying that my goal was to spark discussion, otherwise it wouldn't have happened imo. So I've used this question "Would you prefer me to discuss how we should use plurality lynch ?" as a sarcasm to show (or imply if you prefer) that my goal was to spark discussion. And please judge me on my actions and not on my wording. I wanted to say "By using sarcasm, I wanted to hint at the fact that my sudden FoS was sparkin discussion" "Using sarcasm was not a brilliant idea, but I was implying that I wanted to spark discussion" Is it clear now ? By the way, if you have still problems with that, please tell me what could be the mafia motivations for dropping the sudden FoS in the first place ? | ||
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I'm starting to have some serious concerns in your regard. Do you see the similarity between this + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2012 03:51 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: <snip> Also, why would you say this, Djodref? Everybody's "principal concern" is to find mafia. Sort of like that "why are you afraid of seeming suspicious" question -- the answer is self explanatory. I fail to see a point here. That's what I have to say concerning Djodref atm, and my FoS still applies. <snip> On November 04 2012 05:46 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Hmm... @Rad What do you think about that underlined portion right there? The similarity is nit-picking some sentences in my post to interpret them at your convenience to make me looking scummy. I've been making some decent posts (in my opinion) to explain you the difference I see between voting to pressure someone or voting because you are suspicious of someone and you have made no comments against them. I've got the feeling that you don't want to discuss with me and just want to make me looking suspicious. Very similar to what happened last game. I'll tell you right now, you are not going to push a mislynch on me in this game. If you are town, remove your confirmation biased glasses and start to discuss with me. I've been defending myself but it is no use if you dismiss my posts. | ||
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I might have been too quick with my judgement on you. You explanations make sense somehow even if I don't like how you explained your slip. I would be glad to change my vote if you were able to present a good case against someone And, yes, I'm using my vote to force him to scumhunt. | ||
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On November 03 2012 11:21 Clarity_nl wrote: It's cause I read your Mafia QT I guess, you're right, in the thread itself you were super serious. So why the change of tone? XXIX is my first mafia game on TL, so it's my first encounter with debears. Maybe debears opens like this in every mafia game regardless? I'll go dig around. Feel free to comment debears. @ Calrity First encounter with debears ? What did you mean to say exactly ? | ||
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Clarity Have you guys noticed Clarity ? | ||
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FoS on Clarity incoming | ||
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On November 04 2012 13:42 Djodref wrote: Clarity Have you guys noticed Clarity ? I'm betting that you didn't really notice him because this guys is sure blending in First of all, I would like to say that Clarity is non-committal with his reads. Please have a look at the different posts in the following spoiler. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2012 18:43 Clarity_nl wrote: I don't think it's directed at you specifically, but it's interesting that you think it is. The reason Cheese said to not drop the newbie card is because it's not town behavior. When you are town you want people to believe you, if you come out of the gate saying you're awful and no one should listen to you then that's anti-town. It also prevents scum from using "omg sorry I'm just new!", the less excuses scum have available the better for town. My reads at this point in time: Obzy: Leaning slightly town. He hasn't quite come out of his shell yet but he seems genuinly interested in discussion and progressing. @ Obzy Do you think you can get over this "I'm new" thing and give us the best reads you've got? Instead of posting something that's obvious to everyone perhaps post something that stands out to you. _ Rad: Null. He's being more careful than last game, lurking a bit more. He mentioned he would be more careful, but not in pregame, he did this after the role PMs were sent. He also seems really invested in helping Obzy out as he's the newest, the only one here who wasn't in XXIX. @ Rad Why the interest in Obzy? Are you going to use MLG as an excuse at any point this weekend? _ Alsn: Leaning slightly scum, very little info about him though. He opened super aggressive this game, which is the opposite of how he played in the majority of XXIX. Perhaps the only reason he snapped at debears so hard is because debears said @ Alsn Why the change in behavior from last game? What do you think of debears at this point? _ Mr Cheesecake: Null. He went SUPER defensive when he was called out about making a ton of jokes, but that discussion got blown way out of proportion. The fact that he's acting more like the way he was in mafia QT XXIX than in the actual XXIX thread is indicative of town. @ Cheese You did have some jokes in the XXIX thread. Can you tell us if these were jokes for the sake of jokes or if you used them to push a scum agenda? An argument can be made for both. _ Djodref: Leaning slightly scum, He was obsessed with policy. Everyone was ready to move on but he kept mentioning it over and over. He's also the person that blew up the whole *Cheese's scum joke* thing, which bogged us down for a couple of pages. @ Djodref If you had to lynch someone right now, would it be da0ud or someone else? _ Debears: Null. Regardless of if he's scum or town, he is getting the ball rolling which is good for us. Problem is... that was what he was doing in XXIX as well and he was scum in that. Older games suggest this is simply his meta so there is no read to be made about his opening. What I'm curious about is if he's going to pull a vanishing act in D2 / D3 again. @ Debears What's your ready on Obzy? _ Sylverfire: Null. Only have 3 real posts to read him on. He opened really aggressive onto debears, even though he's keeping the ball rolling, an odd choice. He showed up way late but Rad pointed out that he is sticking to the same schedule he's had in previous games. @ Sylverfire You've only shared your read on debears, is there anything else that stands out to you? _ So with all that said, I only have two slight scumreads on Alsn and Djo, so I hope they defend themselves as soon as possible. Even if we end up lynching da0ud for lurking, currently with 0 posts, we can at least gather as much information as possible Hopefully this gets some discussion going, please comment on as much as possible in my post and point out any flaws. Do no avoid answering the questions I addressed to you, it would be a very scummy thing to do. This post is full of null reads or slight reads, it speaks for itself. On November 03 2012 21:39 Clarity_nl wrote: My two weak scumreads are still you and Alsn, but that's what they are... weak. My post is simply to gather as much info as possible. I will end up making a case before the day is over, but I figured giving this thread a good kick would help. Weak scumreads on Alsn on me On November 04 2012 04:38 Clarity_nl wrote: <snip> I am no longer suspect of Alsn, at least not as much. Although he seems to have a hard on for debears and djo he's making decent points and trying to further conversation. Debears... I'm not quite sure. The stubbornness about sylver's post where he said he has a lot of fluff really shouldn't have been that big of a deal, he just couldn't let it go. Maybe Rad is on to something. Drops Alsn and is wishy washy about debears Then Clarity is also using double-standards, he has being reproaching Rad not to scumhunt but have you seen Clarity scumhunting ? You might argue that he has put pressure on daoud but he has conveniently done it while it was Saturday night in Hong Kong. And given daoud lurky habits, it's an easy target to attack. On November 04 2012 05:02 Clarity_nl wrote: Although caution can be a good thing Rad, you should be careful. If you don't have enough information to make a read make sure to get more information. It would be too easy for scum to go: "Ah, I dunno, don't really have any reads" You shouldn't be getting away with this as town. I'm curious as to any cases you might make in the next 24 hours. Clarity has been defensive when I was trying to give him advice after his post with his reads. On November 03 2012 21:17 Djodref wrote: Just a remark for Obsy and Clarity, lists can been seen as a scumtell. I know that newbies love them so it's a null tell for me right now. Let me explain. Making list makes you look like as an active contributor while you are not really committing on any player. From a list post, it's easy to blend in and find some reasons to vote for the possible lynch candidates. And I also think it would be better for you to focus on your scumreads rather than dispatch your attention. If you are town, of course The point I really don't like in his reaction is the fact that he said that he didn't make a list. On November 03 2012 21:23 Clarity_nl wrote: Where did I make a list? Unless you're talking about my reads on everyone, which I don't see can ever be a bad thing. You are the one who pointed out that it is a plurality lynch, and that we should not focus too deeply on a select few. My "list" forces everyone to comment on it, and perhaps gain insight on others through my observations or sees a flaw in my logic and helps me out by pointing it out. Yeah, I've read that lists are generally a mafia tell, or newbie town, but this is only the case if they do not contribute. Are you saying that my post will not contribute? Regarding the plurality lynch, we have individually to focus on our scum reads but town in general should not focus on only two players. By the way, you have failed to put pressure on me or Alsn, but we were your scum reads. In conclusion FoS Clarity | ||
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On November 04 2012 13:50 debears wrote: @Djo and Dau0d Has Sylver done anything to to make you think he is town? @ debears At least he tried to defend himself in a reasonable way. I'm waiting real scumhunt from him before changing my vote. The point he has against you + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2012 03:00 sylverfyre wrote: Yes, I did. I couldn't get any reads out of it, but I mentioned it. In my first post: You, on my posting times TL Went down. Delayed me writing up my intro post. Also, it's friday, so I stay up later because I don't have work the following morning. And I was out friday evening. (For reference, I am EDT.) Also, I was DEAD by D2. You have no sample size. Seriously, wild conspiracy theory gets us nowhere. It's scummy to post arguments that have no merit. I'm still attacking you because you continue to flail around with no useful reasons. But these are particularly useless: But it's more on the number of one-liners you post. Like, your entire fucking filter. You constantly post multiple times within 5 minutes of each other. It's just unnecessary. The biggest red flag to me was: If your 30 page filter looks like this, debears, how the is anyone supposed to process it as information? You write twenty sentences per page of filter. That's what I'm complaining about. You can put more than one sentence into a post. Please do, for the sake of the town. Alright, enough about the fluff. I simply have asked a favor. As for the continued Vote on debears: At this point, I'm more concerned about you making up conspiracy theories about me. You OMGUS voted me (not surprising) but you're standing by it for really weird reasons. I'm not the only one calling them weird. Making up weird reasons about me is not getting us anywhere. I am finding it 1% more scummy with each straw you grasp at. Maybe you're overreacting because you're a scum in a bind? I find it strange, and suspicious. | ||
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On November 04 2012 13:52 da0ud wrote: 9 KST is 8 HKT. I start work @ 7.40 so it will be tough for me to be arround. The best I can do is wake up @ 6 instead of 7. However with the pace at which to thread goes I will wake up tomorrow with 10 pages to read and I wont be able to make a constructive vote. I could ninja vote at the last minute but I am not really pro this behaviour. Most likely i will put my vote tonight roughly 9 to 10 hours before lynch and stick to it. On a side note I wont be able to defend myself either if mafia decides to target me during the night as well. This is exactly what happened in the last game. I had announced it before and still got lynched. The deadline is 9am HKT. It is possible for you to catch up wen you arrive at work or are you too busy in the mornings ? | ||
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I need to take more time to check what happened between you and Rad but, at first glance, you just look like two stubborn guys shouting at each other. I'm more interested in Clarity right now What's your take on him ? | ||
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I have doubts regarding sylverfire being scum because it would have been very ballsy for a mafia player to open with a post like this. He was sure to stand out by using his vote as a stronger FoS on you. Also slips are not that indicative Clarity, on the other hand, makes sure to not stand out. He didn't follow up Cheese even though this one didn't answer his question, I didn't feel pressure from him in Alsn direction or in my direction. He has not done anything original apart from nit-picking some sentences here and there. I have to check Rad's filter but I can understand where he stands right now because of last game. | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote Clarity_nl FoS sylverfyre FoS Mr. Cheesecake | ||
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Are you writing your posts while skimming through the thread ? Was it the case for your first post ? Regarding my vote on you, I honestly thought you had made a scumslip because I understood "casting suspicion upon" like "trying to discredit". It was on no way a defense of debears. Speaking of the devil, I don't want to focus on him right now because he is the most active player among us. I hope to have more time to really analyze his filter and his motivations. | ||
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By the way, here is my defense against Cheese FoS: + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2012 01:31 Djodref wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2012 14:10 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: *Sigh* Of course I'm focused on defending myself. I started to post some stuff you on Debears in regards to Alsn posting about you, but then Djo proceeds to tunnel me. Here's the obligitory OMGUS case on Djo. I learned a lot of stuff from Nack last game, despite him being an arrogant SOB. I made this exact mistake last game as scum, "Djo is not off the hook" thing. He wants to ensure that his suspicions for me are known. As town, he would not have to make this statement because he would have faith that we already know that. Again, another exact mistake I made last game. Feeling the need to tell people that you have been reading the thread. For the second part, he's assuring that we realize that he knows this game is important to him. As town, he wouldn't feel the need to tell us that the game is important. Then there is the entire "joke" case he makes, which is, no matter how you slice it, a terrible argument. He summons it up from nowhere and makes a huge deal about it. I want to drop the conversation because it's irrelevant and cluttering the thread. He insists that there is something there, but I reiterate, there is not. Need I even mention how utterly hypocritical this post is? ##FOS: Djodref @ Cheese Here is my response regarding your FoS on me. I've inserted your post in the spoiler. First of all, let me say that using OMGUS to vote people is more a mafia trait than a town trait. Dandel has been really OMGUsing me last game when I have made my case against me. Anyway, you have your reasons, so let me address them. Regarding the "you are still on my radar" part, I've been tunneling you for a while and I have not been fully satisfied with your explanations. Nevertheless, we agreed that we should better drop our argument because I was going too far and started to post some posts irrelevant to this game. I was just expressing my opinion on you after our argument which could have been different if you had provided me better explanations. About me re-reading the thread, I was trying to explain you and everyone the context for my sudden FoS on you. You attacked me on the logic but I think the logic was fine because debears had FoS Alsn and I had FoS you for different reasons. In fact, I've realized that I had just dropped a bomb in the thread. That was my initial intent to spark discussion but I got bad feedback about it so I wanted to give better context. To finish about jokes, I'm totally for using jokes in this game But I've been using jokes on purpose when I was mafia to buddy some other players or to lightly cast suspicion on them. So I'm wary of the "scum tell" jokes. In France, we say that there is also a part of truth in jokes and lies And I've been an hypocrite, I admit it. But I really laughed to debears joke ^^ Please show me where I'm accusing him of nit-picking in my defense. I'm accusing Cheesecake of nit-picking (along with Clarity, what a coincidence !) later in the thread. And even if I gave you the impression that I voted you by using nit-picking, my main problem was the way you cast your vote. You didn't provide the right explanations right away after all. Then, the slip that debears has found achieved to convince me. | ||
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Regarding the plurality lynch, it's too late now to discuss about the lynch mechanics. But I would like to tell you that we have now a 7-2 town/mafia ratio. If we have 3 lynch candidates instead of 2, our chances are way better to have a mafia player in the candidates and it's going to be quite difficult for his only partner to sway the vote. Regardless of your alignment, you can ask Hapa what he thinks about it. Regarding the setup and role discussion, I suspected debears of role-fishing and this is something I'm going to keep in mind. | ||
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The mafia team is going to be in a very uncomfortable position if one of its member (even more if the two of them) is at the risk of being lynched during D1. They are going to be very easy to spot if they try to sway the vote. That's why I think it's better for us to consider 3 lynch candidates. Anyway, the best thing to do for everybody is to vote their top scumread and we should start to think about who to lynch after this. So I think we should start to vote soon ^^ I'm not sold on Clarity yet by the way, I want him to bring more original content in the thread. As I have said, the daoud stuff was quite the most easy one. | ||
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Debears being very active, I'm sure I can enough things in his posts to find him scummy. It's just that I don't want to spend my time doing that right now. Active players and controversial players are not a good target for D1 and I'm planning to look at him after the lynch or even during D2 (if we are both alive of course). I think that we have spent a good amount of time during D1 discussing about me being scummy. It was the main topic for a while. So I really would like to focus on players that fly under the radar. Clarity is the best example in my opinion. What do you think of my "case" against him ? | ||
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I was giving you an advice and you reacted in a strange way. Please show me my post where I discredited your list. My main problem is that you didnt follow up Uyour list. Nor your | ||
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On November 04 2012 16:09 sylverfyre wrote: WTF your math. Random voting, We still have a 2/9 chance to lynch a scum, regardless of how you set up the lynchwagons. And games are generally balanced that if you go with pure random voting all game, mafia has a slight edge (otherwise the game gets degenerate if pure random lynching is an optimal strategy for town). OK Whoa. Wait a sec. You say it's too late to discuss lynch mechanics. Then, as I agree to disagree, you make another paragraph on lynch mechanics. WHY? Are you trying to lock me into a pointless discussion? Also, you susupected debears was rolefishing? When I read through that quote tree, I got the impression it was you that might be rolefishing, not him. I did mention that clarity was on my radar for being awfully quiet. And his more recent stuff isn't particularly pulling up any big reads. I found it noteworthy (and said as much earlier) but he's not a lynch target to me... yet. @ sylverfyre I'm just saying that we have way more chances to have a scum in a group of 3 possible lynch candidates than in a group of 2 possible lynch candidates. It's obvious but I've done the math for it to have better estimate on our chances and you should consider picking groups of random players if you want to calculate probabilities. By the way, I didn't see your post before posting mine. It's an interesting information for everyone and I want to share my view I'm going to approach this lynch. Debears mentioned the setup being imbalanced and introduced the medic in a weird way before everyone else. My question to the host about a possible framer was to show that the setup is not imbalanced rolewise. And you better give good reasons for voting against me like this because it is going to fire back at you. | ||
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A few people never answered your questions from the list. Why do you not push them as well ? | ||
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On November 04 2012 16:27 sylverfyre wrote: @Obzy - I made a pressure vote. Debears responded to it. We went back and forth at each other for a while. When we started to get into a loop of OMGUS, I was starting to feel like it was a waste of time and space that wasn't bringing a lot to the town, I let the vote drop. Scum love nothing more than when two townies are at each others throats constantly without looking at other people. I'm not going to random vote first half of day 1 and follow it through all the way to lynchtime unless my target makes some SERIOUS scumtells under pressure. While debears doesn't exactly look pristine, I need to look at (and scumhunt sniff) more than 1 person on day 1. @ sylver So are you saying that debears is a townie ? Slipping again ? I'm not sure what you want to say by "he doesn't exactly look pristine". Could you elaborate ? | ||
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On November 04 2012 16:22 Clarity_nl wrote: <snip> As for your concerns about me, I have already said that I will be making a case (or multiple) today. First day is information gathering. <snip> @ Clarity So you want to gather information but you don't push people to answer to the questions that you have asked them. I don't think that forgetting to answer some question is that alignment relevant. I find you quite passive in your information gathering so far by the way. | ||
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On November 04 2012 16:22 Clarity_nl wrote: <snip> But to summarize... Djo says it's a plurality lynch so we should split our attention. I show my thoughts on everyone because I get asked, and Djo says I should focus more on certain people. I focus on da0ud and he dissapears, so I wait rather than letting it go. The reason I got defensive was because I spent a while making that post, and you shit on it with a one liner. @ Clarity I didn't mean that we should individually split up our attention but that the whole town should consider more than 2 lynch candidates. I think that is better for us to focus on some players until we can have a better read on them. Maybe the best thing to do is to play like you want. If someone is disappearing, you should better cast your vote on him and move on. And if you are suspicious of me, I'm expecting some pressure from you and not from other players. Why do you trust them to do your job ? They could be mafia, don't they ? | ||
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On November 04 2012 17:08 Clarity_nl wrote: All the answers I got were sufficient. Hell, your answer had an entire case on sylver attached to it. Maybe I should be pushing people harder. I feel like there are plenty of people already doing that though. My top scrumreads at the time were you and Alsn, Alsn wasn't around at all and you were already being pushed by others. I was just reading, and as I said I will end up posting at least a solid case today, you can tell me if my information gathering has been weak at that point. @ Clarity Could we at least know who you are going to prepare your cases against ? I also would like to know who has not answered your question from your list yet. | ||
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I'm going to have to sleep before the deadline and I don't want to have to defend your case against me while waking up and catching the thread. Plus it's going to be likely that I need to decide my vote at this time so I would prefer to focus on analysis rather than defense at that time. I find it odd that you don't want to go after Cheese as well. He should be looking quite scummy in your eyes right now because he didn't answer your question. Also, if I want to sum up his contribution so far, he is just tunneling me after an OMGUSy FoS on me. | ||
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I'm not requesting you to make a case about Cheese. I was asking you your read about him, sort of... I'm surprised that you have nothing more against him than not having answering your question. I'll keep this in mind | ||
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On November 05 2012 00:42 da0ud wrote: I am a bit concerned that Djo living in Korea (so almost same timezone as I) has disappeared all afternoon. He is not 100% clean himself and has started lurking. It is now 1.40am in korea and knowing tomorrow is monday I doubt he will contribute till 4.30am. @ Djo : Are you sill arround or will you only be able to catch-up with the thread tomorrow morning right before lynch ? If things happen during the night in Asia, are you comfortable with keeping your vote on Clarity ? @ daoud I'm back, I was out with some friends. I'm not going to stay long though. I'm catching up with the thread but I have already a few things to say. @ sylverfyre I should not have brought again the plurality lynch again but I love math and I wanted to calculate some probabilities. I was not promoting a random vote at all. Could you please make me a list with the main concerns you have in my regards ? I'm not sure to understand exactly why you have your vote on me right now. @ Cheese I understand that you find me suspicious but I don't think you should looking to much in some sentences here and there but rather at my actions. That's why you are hitting a wall of brick: the arguments you present are not really relevant. You know the people I have focused today and why, you know the case I have made and the arguments I have brought. Please look at my actions and try to balance the townie motivations and the mafia motivations I could have to behave like this and see by yourself what makes more sense. | ||
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And why nobody has yet commented on the newest slip from sylver ? | ||
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Clarity, sylverfyre and me Does it seem reasonable for everyone ? Would anyone like to introduce debears on the list ? I'm putting myself on the list because I'm very interested to see who is going to push for my lynch. But don't you guys mislynch me again ! I'm not sure who to lynch between Clarity and sylverfyre right now. @ Clarity I need to go to bed soon and I'm very disappointed that your case against me is not up there right now. I've proposed you to discuss about it before so I'm going to be very mad at you if I wake up and discover a properly timed case against me. You were already pressuring daoud when he was not here and I don't want this to kind of thing to repeat again. @ Sylverfire Step up and bring a consistent case against me. By the way, I've already addressed many points that have been reproached to me but I won't mind to address them again. I really want your comments on your latest slip. | ||
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On November 05 2012 01:16 Rad wrote: @djo What slip? Be specific, there's a lot to keep track of here. Also, don't martyr yourself. TBH that comes across as scummy as hell to me. If you're town, SURVIVE. Your survival would be of more benefit than whatever information you think your death would give, especially since we're just at d1 and everyone's just shooting around in the dark at the moment. @ Rad I would imagine that it comes across as scummy but I want to know who is going to push for my lynch I was very close to have found the whole scumteam last game when I died. This is my motivation to propose myself as a possible lynch candidate. Here is the slip On November 04 2012 16:55 Djodref wrote: @ sylver So are you saying that debears is a townie ? Slipping again ? I'm not sure what you want to say by "he doesn't exactly look pristine". Could you elaborate ? | ||
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On November 05 2012 01:19 Alsn wrote: This fixation on supposed slips is making me seriously pissed. The fact that you don't even realise that if anyone has made a slip, it's you with your "vote pressure" slip yet you go along and accuse others for slipping? Also, would you make up your mind? You want yourself and sylver as lynch candidates too? Why so sylver gets lynched and you won't need to be associated with causing the lynch on Clarity? Do you know that Clarity is town? Look how easy it is to make up slips. It's ridiculous how much attention they seem to be getting. The worst part is that once you accuse someone, anything they say to defend themselves is basically WIFOM. @ Alsn I didn't understand this part of your post. I think that Clarity has better chances to be scum than sylver right now. I would say 70% for Clarity and 60% for sylver. I'd like them both as lynch candidate for today. I know that some people find me suspicious so I'm proposing myself as a lynch candidate, for the reasons I've stated before. | ||
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Do you have a better lynch candidate for today by the way ? | ||
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He announced that he was likely to make a case against me later in the day. At that time, we were both in the thread so I've asked him if it was possible for us to discuss about the points for which I was suspicious in his eyes at this time. Please look at the time stamps. On November 04 2012 17:29 Djodref wrote: Wouldn't you mind to discuss what you have against me right now ? I'm going to have to sleep before the deadline and I don't want to have to defend your case against me while waking up and catching the thread. Plus it's going to be likely that I need to decide my vote at this time so I would prefer to focus on analysis rather than defense at that time. <snip> On November 04 2012 17:38 Clarity_nl wrote: <snip> The deadline is in about 16-17 hours, don't worry I'm not going to post a case close to deadline, but I will not be posting a case right now. What's with the double standards, you want me to fight my own fights but you're asking me about cheese, who you FoS'd On November 04 2012 21:17 Clarity_nl wrote: Going to sleep, will be back in my evening which is in ~5 hours from this post. I think he would have enough time to ask me some questions to get more information or post his case against me before going to bed. I don't understand the town motivation for avoiding discussing with me. I don't think that he is right now 100% convinced I am scum so I don't see why a discussion would have been bad at that time. Right now, I think he is waiting for me to sleep before posting his case. | ||
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Sorry for the confusion I put you through, please don't try to read too much into it. This is something I want to try out because of my experience of last game. If it turns out to be a bad idea, I'm not going to do this again. I'm not going to take one for town. There is nothing in my filter damning enough to justify a lynch on me today in my opinion. But I'm interested to see who is going to take the chance (I think sylverfyre at least wants it) and how he is going to push it. | ||
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On November 05 2012 01:55 Clarity_nl wrote: I'm here now. Please give me a bit to reply as I do need to make dinner as well. Yes Djo my case was going to be about you, it's funny how that works huh, debears popping in with a giant case with bolded red lettering all over it? Well, it is nice that you are preparing a case right now when I'm going to go to bed while we could have discussed about it yesterday. It doesn't look like you want to give me a fair chance to defend myself. | ||
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Yeah, I live and work in South Korea so you can check that it is indeed 2 am in the banner of this thread. Was it a general statement ? I thought it was a reference at you and debears going into OMGUS mode just before your post. | ||
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On November 05 2012 02:08 sylverfyre wrote: It's funny how I popped in a little more than 8 hours after I went to bed. >_> I'm wondering if the schedules people are maintaining are with ulterior motive, but I think it's not something that we can read into. People have real lives. @ sylvefyre Yeah, people have real lives. But you can notice in my scum game that I was using the different timezones at my advantage. I deliberately posted when people where not around and I didn't stay up at night so much because I didn't want to interact. | ||
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I'm eager to see the vote count when I wake up | ||
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By the way, the lynch is in 7.5 hours which makes it at 10 am for me. It is 2.30am now and I am working tomorrow so I have the right to sleep | ||
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It means that you are now 100% convinced that I am scum (in the case where you are town) which is stupid because I am not scum and townies should always keep their mind open or that you are scum yourself. | ||
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On November 05 2012 02:44 Rad wrote: Lol djo... you realize you just said "your argument is stupid because I'm not scum." Honestly I would be pissed off if Clarity is town and do not want to discuss his case against me beforehand because he is afraid that I could talk my way out of the lynch. I don't understand why a townie would want to see me dead so much. | ||
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On November 05 2012 02:35 Clarity_nl wrote: Wait, where are you living currently? I didn't want to discuss your scumminess with you because I'd rather have an entire case up, rather than tell you then and give you time to prepare and possible post stuff to contradict my arguements before my case goes up. The fact that you don t want to discuss with me nor give me enough time to defend myself against your case shows that you have some confirmation bias against me. | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:00 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I claimed because the OP isn't indicative of flavor. I assumed Marv made a boo-boo, but apparently not since scum got role PM's too. Debears caught it right away. It also was a moment of fun in this thread xD @ Cheese So, it's ok for you to get the thread derailed for a joke at one hour before the lynch ? Why did you claim, for real ? | ||
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MOTIVATIONS ? ##Unvote ##Vote Cheese | ||
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The amount of self-guiltiness you show is over 9000 | ||
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On November 05 2012 10:01 sylverfyre wrote: My chance following cheesecake voting debears? If cheese flips town, it's clarity or debears. Probably both. If that is not a big scumtell | ||
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I'm waiting for your case against me ^^ Bring it on ! | ||
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Regarding sylverfyre slips, I'm going to discard them. I don't think they are a good indication of sylverfyre being scum because he does them all the time. I'll try to check his filter last game to see if I can find some matching cases. Regarding me blending in, I don't think it's true. I've dropped a FoS on Cheese early game that caught a lot of attention and my case on Clarity was not based on nit-picking but on his general behavior. | ||
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On November 05 2012 07:59 Clarity_nl wrote: <snip> @ Rad He's being accused of the same things I am, if I argue for/against Cheese it'll all be major WIFOM Just a remark, if you accuse someone for doing the same thing that you are doing. It's not WIFOM, it's being a hypocrite and having double standards. | ||
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On November 05 2012 08:32 Clarity_nl wrote: I can do that too. I don't wanna pay for no porn man. I don't think that saying that proves anything, can't make an assumption based on the host's behavior. Cheese why did you claim VT? On November 05 2012 08:45 marvellosity wrote: To stop any shenannies - every player in the game knows the VT role PM. On November 05 2012 08:58 Clarity_nl wrote: I didn't want to assume things. I didn't know that either but I had considered it much earlier. I noticed the OP is different from my PM role. I don't like Clarity early reaction to Cheese claim. Among Rad, debears and Clarity, he is the only one to doubt Cheese's claim before Marv post. I think that Clarity is mafia and had the information beforehand (the information that the VT role PM was dispatched to everybody). | ||
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On November 05 2012 14:41 debears wrote: @Rad and Djo What do you think of the mini case I recently made on Sylver for not voting his top scumread? @ debears You have a point but I don't think that it is that relevant. Sylver tried to vote you but there was obviously no momentum to get you lynched today. He was then convinced that Cheese and you was the scumteam and, at that moment, Cheese could be lynched. I think you were his primary target but he went for his secondary target instead because he couldn't get you lynched. I kind of did the same thing. I wanted a Clarity lynch and it almost happened but then Alsn made his case, Cheese claimed and said On November 05 2012 08:34 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Confirmed clarity as VT btw. so this on top of my previous suspicion on Cheese made me think that Clarity and Cheese was the scumteam. I've made the stupidest mistake ever, the association case without flip information. After that, there was no more momentum for a Clarity lynch so I also went for my secondary target. I would like your input on two points
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On November 05 2012 15:10 Rad wrote: Djo, he explained himself pretty clearly, and what he said is true. @ Rad Did you imagine one single instant that marv has sent the VT role flavor also to the mafia members ? I didn't, Cheese didn't and debears didn't. So why would have Clarity such doubts ? | ||
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No, I'm just saying that your reaction to the claim differed from Cheese and debears reaction to the claim and that Clarity one was also different. From your behavior, I understand that you want to protect the blues, but Clarity behavior was different and especially suspicious because he didn't have a strong scumread on Cheese beforehand. Cheese was one of the guy having not answered his question on the list but Clarity had nothing else against him so he wasn't suspicious in his eyes. I find it quite convenient that he starts to get suspicious of Cheese just after Alsn case (Cheese was showing almost the same behavior as himself by the way) when he is on the verge of being lynched. When you take this into account, I don't see why Clarity would have doubted Cheese claim like this. | ||
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He is most certainly scum ! @ Rad Did you see how he avoided to discuss with me after this post + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2012 17:29 Djodref wrote: Wouldn't you mind to discuss what you have against me right now ? I'm going to have to sleep before the deadline and I don't want to have to defend your case against me while waking up and catching the thread. Plus it's going to be likely that I need to decide my vote at this time so I would prefer to focus on analysis rather than defense at that time. I find it odd that you don't want to go after Cheese as well. He should be looking quite scummy in your eyes right now because he didn't answer your question. Also, if I want to sum up his contribution so far, he is just tunneling me after an OMGUSy FoS on me. If we have a jailer, I would like him to block Clarity. If we have a cop, I would like him to invest someone esle (because of framer). If we have a medic, I wouldn't mind protection for the night. | ||
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You are right but this kind of reasoning could lead us into a WIFOM hell. In my honest opinion, Clarity is very likely to be scum, so a possible jailkeeper would have good chances to prevent him from killing. Maybe the mafia is going to listen to me as well and use the other member to carry the night kill, maybe they are going to use Clarity anyway, maybe I'm totally wrong and Clarity is town. I don't know and I don't even know if we have a jailkeeper but I would say that it's the best thing for him to do. Anyway, it's down to the jailkeeper decision (if he exists), he could also decide to jail me to give me protection. I wouldn't mind this | ||
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On November 05 2012 16:01 Rad wrote: <snip> Your consistency is terrible. So you can do it but clarity can't? He at least told you that he had a case against you but he doesn't want to discuss it. I've already shown I have issues with his decision and I pushed for him to post it. But you just spit out "I might have a case, it'll be a surprise!" How is that better than clarity? I can't wait for both of your cases! They'll be so enjoyable, especially yours, cause I have no idea who the hell you're wanting to target but you think it's worth keeping secret. I recommend no blues listen to any of djo's suggestions at the moment. @ Rad There is a big difference between day and night. During the day, we should not retain any information because we need the maximum to get a correct lynch. During the night, the mafia team is deciding who to kill and they should prioritize the players which are on their tracks. So I think it's ok not to tell right now who would be my secondary target because I might die for it. Do you see the difference ? | ||
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Usually the scum team decides which player is going to carry the night actions. Any of them two could carry the KP but they have to choose one of them. If there is a framer, could the goon carry the framing action ? If there is a roleblocker, could the goon carry the RB ?[/green][/b] | ||
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On November 05 2012 16:22 da0ud wrote: Why do you think you would need more protection than anyone else ? First the medic, now the jailkeeper ? I feel more concerned about being NKed than you. People are being suspicious about you, which is good for the scum team if you are town. I was the one to scream out loud not to lynch CC this way. I had the trauma in my first game when we all decided to lynch austin at the last moment out of more or less nothing. Mementoss did try to save him and got NKed right after. @ daoud I'm pretty sure that Clarity is part of the scumteam and I'm obviously going to push for a Clarity lynch tomorrow. If I am right, the mafia team would better do to kill me than letting me alive, even if I'm looking suspicious. Also, publicly requesting medic or jailkeeper is kind of a bluff. I want the mafia team to eat their part of WIFOM ^^ | ||
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2) Yeah, speculations about night kill and night actions are usually very WIFOMy. I'm just hoping that we are putting them in the same state of confusion right now | ||
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It's done. Did you find someone suspicious enough to deserve a lynch, at the exception of clarity ? | ||
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Why did you keep this information for yourself ? Now that the thread is calmed down, could you explain in detail why you wanted to lynch Cheese ? | ||
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On November 05 2012 22:26 Clarity_nl wrote: Nothing prevented me from doing that, I just didn't. It only occurred to me as I was about to post it that posting a mod pm might not be a good idea. So you have learned that mafia could do ”safe” fakeclaims with the help of the VT flavor but you didn't even ask the host if it was ok to share this information ? That's kind of anti-town, wouldn't you agrre ? | ||
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On November 05 2012 22:36 Clarity_nl wrote: Like I said, it didn't occur to me it might be against the rules until I wanted to post it. How convenient ! Almost as convenient as suddenly finding Cheese scummy when you are in danger of being lynched | ||
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On November 05 2012 08:34 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Confirmed clarity as VT btw. @ Clarity What did you think of this post ? | ||
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What did you think of this post at the moment when he posted it ? marv, it is against the rules to ask Clarity what he asked you exactly and when and also is it ok for him to answer this question? | ||
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We're going to avenge you Cheese | ||
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What did you exactly ask marv and when ? Please notice how easy it is to ask if something is against the rules or not Also I would like to answer me what were your thoughts when you saw this post for the first time : On November 05 2012 08:34 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Confirmed clarity as VT btw. | ||
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I need this information to be sure. I want to know what he asked The both questions are very relevant. | ||
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Why Town Clarity would have never lynched Cheese Let's take a look at the history of the interactions between Clarity and Cheese On November 04 2012 17:20 Clarity_nl wrote: Top 3 choices in my eyes are Debears, Sylver and you. As for people who haven't answered my questions: Alsn, Cheese, Sylver. On November 04 2012 17:38 Clarity_nl wrote: Cheese is not looking scummy. He hasn't answered my question but that by itself doesn't mean a whole lot. It's in combination with other factors that it means something to me. <snip> Lynch - 17H -> Cheese is not looking scummy despite the fact that he did not answer Town Clarity question. Town Clarity must have some kind of town read on him... On November 05 2012 07:46 Clarity_nl wrote: I think that if you were to go on: being neutral and not making points = scum (on day 1) then Cheese would be a good target. I'm not convinced that it's scummy though, as I think keeping a clear head and taking in as much information as possible is most important day 1. I find there are always people to push information out of others, and I feel that (for me personally) if I push people I tend to get confirmation bias, so I avoid it early. On November 05 2012 07:59 Clarity_nl wrote: <snip> @ Rad He's being accused of the same things I am, if I argue for/against Cheese it'll all be major WIFOM Lynch - 2H -> Town Clarity has forgot Cheese for a while but then Alsn drops his case and asks Town Clarity what he thinks about Cheese. Town Clarity recognizes that Cheese is accused of the same things he is accused of but does not sympathize and does not try to defend him. Town Clarity is wishy washy on Cheese... Lynch - 1H30 -> Cheese claims and Town Clarity is doubtful. After all, Town Clarity knows already everything about the flavor which has been given to anyone. But then... On November 05 2012 08:34 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Confirmed clarity as VT btw. Then town Clarity is unable to recognize the genuineness of VT who was believing, like he might have done before and asked marv about it, that the flavor was imb4 and was like a password which would allow the VTs to acknowledge each others. Town Clarity knows that he is town. How could he not be moved by Cheese trying to confirm him town ? I would like to remind you that Town Clarity has never really been suspicious of Cheese. Instead, he coldly voted him and spat on his corpse while shouting WIFOM DEFENSE ! Town Clarity doesn't exist, Clarity is scum ! | ||
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But I don't want to bother. Who is still believing in Town Clarity ? | ||
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On November 05 2012 08:47 Clarity_nl wrote: I am completely lost now after what just happened. Is there ANYONE other than sylver here that thinks debears might be scum? Seriously doubting right about now... By the way, this one is seriously reminding me Dandel Ion D1 during last game ^^ | ||
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On November 06 2012 01:31 Clarity_nl wrote: "Jesus Christ" I tried to stop him from doing this. @ Clarity So he was looking genuine to you ? Why did you not try to defend him and push a lynch on debears ? | ||
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On November 06 2012 01:11 Rad wrote: @Djo You don't agree that the information could be helpful for blue hunting (if his answer is sincere, that is)? I realize that if you're town, you actually don't believe he's town also so his answer is a scum answer, but let's say you're both town. Do you think the answer to your question is good information to give scum? @ Rad Yes, because there is something which doesn't make sense at all in his story. Please check his interactions with Cheese and tell me what you think about it. | ||
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On November 06 2012 01:52 Clarity_nl wrote: No, I tried to stop him from saying that because if he did, as town, it would be moronic. And as you pointed out, I was starting to doubt my case on debears. Do you really not see a scum motive for Cheese pointing me out as "confirmed town" Again, you seem to think I had special information after marv posted that everyone knows VT flavor, but I didn't, you were just as informed as I was. We all voted for Cheese. No, I was just kinda busy answering 1001 questions from you and debears. I was busy defending myself. @ Clarity Are you trying to deny your responsibility in the lynch ? Daoud did not vote for Cheese because he really believed that debears was scum... I have explained my reasons for lynching Cheese. I was being stupid but at least it makes some sense. I don't understand how you could not recognize that he was town and genuinely believing in the power of the VT flavor. How could you believe he was scum ? The only reason I see is that you were mafia and too happy to see a possibility to escape your lynch to think straight. | ||
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On November 06 2012 00:51 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity What did you exactly ask marv and when ? <snip> | ||
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On November 06 2012 02:02 Clarity_nl wrote: Ask me again in the morning. Stop blue hunting and stop telling blues what to do. @ Clarity After a post like this, the only possibility for you to be alive tomorrow morning is being mafia. | ||
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What do you think about a Clarity lynch tomorrow ? | ||
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Could you at least tell me when you asked marv your question ? I'm only asking for when right now ^^ | ||
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On November 06 2012 02:01 Clarity_nl wrote: I was already safe from lynching before I switched. @ Clarity Ok, that's cool, if you were safe when you switched, it's sure that your vote did not mean anything. | ||
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On November 06 2012 02:13 Clarity_nl wrote: @ Obzy The reason I asked marv before Cheese claiming was because I noticed what Cheese did. The OP Townie does not match with the PM townie. The PM townie flavor is in every PM. How do you conclude from this that I am blue or scum? @ Clarity What did you notice ? | ||
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On November 03 2012 21:23 Clarity_nl wrote: Where did I make a list? Unless you're talking about my reads on everyone, which I don't see can ever be a bad thing. You are the one who pointed out that it is a plurality lynch, and that we should not focus too deeply on a select few. My "list" forces everyone to comment on it, and perhaps gain insight on others through my observations or sees a flaw in my logic and helps me out by pointing it out. Yeah, I've read that lists are generally a mafia tell, or newbie town, but this is only the case if they do not contribute. Are you saying that my post will not contribute? @ Alsn Please check his very post in response to my advice. If the part in bold is not denial, please tell me what do you think it is. | ||
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This is the first mention of Cheese in Alsn filter as far as I know. Lynch - 10H -> no mention of Cheese On November 05 2012 00:16 Alsn wrote: <snip> That being said, at the very least I have a good idea of what I need to be looking at today. Clarity, Djod, debears. I'm also going to look into sylver because I had some suspicions against him before I went to sleep but I must have missed whether or not he contradicted or reinforced those suspicions of mine when I just read through the thread. Lynch - 4H -> starts to show attention to Cheese On November 05 2012 05:25 Alsn wrote: Actually, make that last post of mine @Cheese too. And the best part is that, 2 hours later, Alsn came to us with a concise case which allows him to point Cheese as scum. Alsn shows confidence in his read of Cheese. The time it took to decide that Cheese was scum, the size of his post, the confidence he shows. All these points don't fir Alsn's town meta. On November 05 2012 07:05 Alsn wrote: In fact, I'm inclined to vote Cheese over Clarity at this point as most likely to be scum. I still think there are good points made against clarity, but mostly they are inconsistencies or weird logic(such as the latest one pointed out by debears) and I don't think being inconsistent is necessarily a scum tell. Not keeping track of your own thoughts seems to me to be a town tell(since townies are not that concerned with keeping their story straight). Why I think Mr. Cheesecake is scum
##Vote: Mr. Cheesecake I think that he also uses double-standards while voting Cheese over Clarity. Cheese was more consistent than Clarity in his follow-ups and did not avoid discussion. For the rest of the points, they are common to both players.
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I'm 99% of this. If I die, I'll hope you understand that the claim is fake. | ||
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Wouldn't you mind being more explicit right now ? You promised me something for the beginning of D2 | ||
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On November 06 2012 10:03 Rad wrote: Wow scum, you couldn't read that debears was a VT? LOL. Why do you think he high fived cheese? @ Rad The mafia priority is not blue sniping. Debears was a good choice... While being active and all, debears was kind of a town leader, even if he was controversial. Him being gone makes life easier for scum. Also, we can make some assumptions
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On November 06 2012 10:03 Rad wrote: Wow scum, you couldn't read that debears was a VT? LOL. Why do you think he high fived cheese? @ Rad Can I ask you who you expected to die ? | ||
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@ Rad I'm not scum and I've been mafia before you so I'm not surprised at debears death at all. And I kind of knew he was VT given his reaction to Cheese claim. In fact, there is a lot of people that I lean VT on given the way they reacted to Cheese claim. Clarity is none of them, I cannot tell the same for Alsn and you. I would say right now that daoud and Obzy have good chances to be town. | ||
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Sylverfyre is an enigma by the way but I know right now that his slips were not scumslips. | ||
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"LOL scum, you have hit a VT. Better luck at blue sniping next time "What the fuck was that ? | ||
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On November 05 2012 23:29 Clarity_nl wrote: It's safe to assume that since Townie isn't Townie, other roles have different names too, right? On November 05 2012 23:45 Clarity_nl wrote: I don't think forcing me to roleclaim during N1 is a good idea. @ Clarity Right now, Obzy, daoud and me want to lynch you. I guess it shouldn't be too difficult to convince sylverfyre to vote against you as well. I want you to roleclaim and to tell us what you did ask marv exactly. I'm on Obzy side, I cannot believe that you could be something else than blue or red, given your experience in this game. | ||
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Why would you assume that Clarity is town ? | ||
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Did you see how he avoided to discuss with me after this post + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2012 17:29 Djodref wrote: Wouldn't you mind to discuss what you have against me right now ? I'm going to have to sleep before the deadline and I don't want to have to defend your case against me while waking up and catching the thread. Plus it's going to be likely that I need to decide my vote at this time so I would prefer to focus on analysis rather than defense at that time. I find it odd that you don't want to go after Cheese as well. He should be looking quite scummy in your eyes right now because he didn't answer your question. Also, if I want to sum up his contribution so far, he is just tunneling me after an OMGUSy FoS on me. I want your comment on this Rad. I don't think you gave it to me yet... | ||
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First, he didn't want to discuss about my me being scummy in his eyes with me 17 hours before lynch. Why would you like to retain information at that time ? My point is that he didn't want to discuss and you have been bitching me to hell last game when I said "I'm not going to change my mind". I think not willing to discuss is way worse than not wanting to change your mind. Second, this guy said I trapped him not posting his case against me. That's a lie because I gave him a fair warning like 17h before the lynch but even if he was town and felt trapped and bullied by a guy who he thinks scum, I'm saying that there are just more reasons for him to post his case against me. But he doesn't post it because it's going to look bad and because I won't have time to defend myself which was his first point to not discuss with me at the beginning. What I think: His case against me is bad and weak and he knows this because he is scum and I'm town. What would you do if one your top scumread was bullying you so you cannot post your case without looking bad and proposing himself for a lynch candidate. I would personally add this points in my case and take the risk to be mislynch to show everyone what fucking bastard he is. Clarity has shown way too much self-preservation instinct and he didn't want to commit like any townie should do. And the alternative case he made was against debears, another town guy. | ||
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On November 05 2012 08:31 Rad wrote: Cheese, I've realized you were claiming that, but WHY? What's your motivation to do that at this point in the game? @ Rad When did you realize he was claiming VT ? With the first claim or the second claim or when he was explicit with it. What did you think of it at that time ? | ||
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On November 06 2012 12:02 Rad wrote: 1. Why not? He didn't try to make a push on getting you lynched, you didn't end up being a lynch candidate, and he can post today if he wants. He had very low possibility of being NK considering most people think he's suspicious.How would a town clarity know if he has a low probability to get NKed ? So you are saying that avoiding discussion is OK at 17 hours before the lynch because we can always discuss later. I was here in the thread and he was also here and this was a golden opportunity for him to put pressure on me and follow-up his scumreads for once and HE DID NOT DO IT. Why would he avoid an argument and keep it for later ? He didn't want me to be able to prepare for his case which I take as he has a strong scumread on me, but later on he decides not to take his chance ? Why did he change his mind ? 2. He decided to make a case against debears instead. Why discuss with you at that point if he's not interested in pushing it? If he does think you're scum, and he is town, seems like he would want to keep that info to himself in the meantime since he's not going anywhere anytime soon (and said he would post if he was to be lynched, which makes sense, though we can't read into it since it didn't happen so whatever) Yeah, I really like to keep my thoughts for myself when I'm town. I think I'm going to play like Roco and Inig to increase our chances of winning ? Not interested in pushing his reads ? Come on ! What is possibly more anti-town ? As for him potentially looking bad by posting a case on you when you'll supposedly flip town one day, he would have (if scum) had that same concern with debears when he made that case, so this isn't even really worth thinking about. I don't think he was holding back out of fear of a case on you implicating him if you flipped green, I think he just wanted to put out a case against debears instead (for whatever reason, we can't figure that out without going WIFOM crazy). [b]@ Rad My comments in bold font in your post. | ||
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On November 06 2012 12:11 Rad wrote: I realized with this post: I'm not going to tell you what I thought of it because that's blue hunting, and I feel I will survive until the night. @ Rad Stop with the blue hunting bullshit. If you are cop and you had a green check on Clarity, you should tell us right now. It's either that or you are scum with him. You are such an hypocrite in your defense of him ! I point you some points which show clearly anti-town behavior and you keep finding excuses for him. | ||
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Sorry for the formatting, my points are relevant so I'm going to post them again. 1. Why not? He didn't try to make a push on getting you lynched, you didn't end up being a lynch candidate, and he can post today if he wants. He had very low possibility of being NK considering most people think he's suspicious.[b]How would a town clarity know if he has a low probability to get NKed ? So you are saying that avoiding discussion is OK at 17 hours before the lynch because we can always discuss later. I was here in the thread and he was also here and this was a golden opportunity for him to put pressure on me and follow-up his scumreads for once and HE DID NOT DO IT. Why would he avoid an argument and keep it for later ? He didn't want me to be able to prepare for his case which I take as he has a strong scumread on me, but later on he decides not to take his chance ? Why did he change his mind ? 2. He decided to make a case against debears instead. Why discuss with you at that point if he's not interested in pushing it? If he does think you're scum, and he is town, seems like he would want to keep that info to himself in the meantime since he's not going anywhere anytime soon (and said he would post if he was to be lynched, which makes sense, though we can't read into it since it didn't happen so whatever) Yeah, I really like to keep my thoughts for myself when I'm town. I think I'm going to play like Roco and Inig to increase our chances of winning ? Not interested in pushing his reads ? Come on ! What is possibly more anti-town ? As for him potentially looking bad by posting a case on you when you'll supposedly flip town one day, he would have (if scum) had that same concern with debears when he made that case, so this isn't even really worth thinking about. I don't think he was holding back out of fear of a case on you implicating him if you flipped green, I think he just wanted to put out a case against debears instead (for whatever reason, we can't figure that out without going WIFOM crazy). My comments are in bold font in response to your previous post in defense of Clarity. [/QUOTE] | ||
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First of all, I'm not hunting for blues. I want information to find scum, that is all. Blues are not going to solve the game for us, we have to do it by ourselves. I don't care if I have to out all the blues while scumhunting if the information I get allows me to find the mafia members. I do not appreciate at all the fact that you are retaining information with the excuse that you want to protect the blues. Anyway, if you are afraid for them, please step up and make some cases, force the mafia to kill you by being dangerous for them (if you are town, that is). If you start your day by doing this + Show Spoiler + On November 06 2012 10:07 Rad wrote: FoS Obzy FoS Djo partial FoS Sylver
Secondly, my arguments are not stupid. If we assume that we have a town Clarity having a scum read on scum Djodref. Then, town Clarity is
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I'm seriously pissed off by Rad and Clarity accusing me of blue hunting when I'm looking for information. In my eyes, Clarity is scum at 95% and I don't understand how Rad is failing at seeing it when I present all the facts that show that Clarity has not a town behavior. As I said, either Rad has extra information, either Rad is in the scumteam with Clarity. Anyway, I think their argument for retaining information is stupid. The best way to protect the blues is to be more dangerous for the mafia than the blues themselves. I do not care if some blues have to claim or if we are outing some blues in the process of scumhunting. BLUES DO NOT SOLVE THE GAME FOR US, TOWN IS ! | ||
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On November 06 2012 13:44 sylverfyre wrote: This most recent post by you is even more ridiculously scummy. Don't care if you have to out all the blues while scumhunting? Maybe because you're actually blue-hunting? ##Vote Djodref [b] sylverfyre If you are town, please ask yourself if your point against me is enough to justify a vote. Please bring a complete case against me if you are seriously wanting me lynched today. Which is not going to happen because I'm right.. If you are mafia, you are welcome to find more shitty reasons to vote me. | ||
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I'm tunneling Clarity right now because you and me are the only two wanting a Clarity lynch today right now. I've tried to convince Rad and he has called my arguments stupid. Obzy wants to lynch sylverfyre. sylverfyre wants to lynch me. I don't know what thinks Alsn nor Rad nor Clarity. I guess that you are town because I feel that you are honest in your post, especially the one where you react at Cheese claim after the fact. I might be wrong and I did not look at you in details but I'm not going to bother with this when we have to convince town to lynch Clarity today. I understand that you think that I might be bussing my partner but could you wait for Clarity flip before thinking of this. Association cases before flip are stupid. | ||
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On November 06 2012 14:00 da0ud wrote: This works as well with scumClarity and scumDjodref. Except that you earn HUGE town credit when he flips scum. @ daoud I know but you HAVE to think about this after the flip. I'm very confident that Clarity is going to flip red but again, we need this information BEFORE starting association cases. Ask anyone else here, they are going to tell you the same thing. What do you think about Alsn ? | ||
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On November 06 2012 14:03 Rad wrote: @djo I spent ~3 hours since the NK discussing mostly with you and some with obzy. Our conversation got stale as hell and I have to enjoy my real life too or I will go mfing insane tomorrow trying to work. Don't even BEGIN to claim I'm not helping town just because I won't role claim right now. Of course if we kill all the scum then it doesn't matter if everyone in the game role claimed and all the blues were outted, because in the end town won. But WHAT POSSIBLE REASON do you think any of us have to believe you're town and you have town's best interests in mind? Do you think you're confirmed town by anyone at this point? Why the hell would anyone want to give you information when that information isn't appropriate to give right now from a town perspective. About your clarity town vs djo scum garbage, you're missing the clarity town djo town scenario. Don't think it's possible that he had bad reads on you and you have bad reads on him? Why is it the case that one of you MUST be scum? Always remember this: shitty town is not scum. We learned that from you last game, try to see if he fits and stop thinking all your points are pure gold. Rethink them. You have no idea how convinced I was that kush was scum last game and I was totally off. That shit can happen so you need to step back and get a grip. @ Rad The point in my argumention is not that one of us has to be scum (my alignment did not matter, I just wanted to emphasize how anti-town is his behavior in the case I would be scum), the main point is that he did not show town behavior in my interactions with me if he really had a scum read on me (which would be a bad read of course because I am town) and he did not show town behavior in his interactions with Cheese. And Clarity did not show town behavior before that as well (please refer to my case and debears case on him). I'm going to tunnel Clarity today until the moment when you are going to say, "ok, let's lynch him today". What's your read on him by the way ? Why are you defending him so much ? | ||
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And, yeah, I'm really raging by now. And yes, association cases before flips are ridiculous, we were already discussing about this last game. Even if I think that Clarity is scum at 95%, I might be wrong. ##Vote Clarity I don't know why I forgot to vote until now... | ||
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On November 06 2012 14:26 Rad wrote: @da0ud My big issue with djo right now is his persistence in blue hunting. I hate it. He really needs to stop and his point about "doesn't matter if we win!" is terrible. debears also blue hunted during the cheese case but turns out that was just an accident. I hate that we keep having to point out to djo that he needs to stop blue hunting and he's ignoring it. I'll be honest with you though. I'm null on him now, or maybe leaning town. He's ridiculously passionate about his clarity tunneling, or at least that's how I read it, and that feels townie to me. Not that I'd get a scum read from him if he wasn't being like this, but I dunno, that's just how I'm feeling atm. I want him to stop tunneling clarity for a bit and move on. He was shitty town last game and I refuse shitty djo town this game, but I think he's just blinded with rage right now. I agree with djo on your thoughts of him gaining super town credit if clarity flips scum, in the case of djo clarity scum team. I think we only worry about that if we end up lynching clarity and he flips scum (or visa versa I suppose?). Also, on my list of possible scum teams, djo clarity isn't one of them (not that I have an actual list, but this one hasn't really come to mind, seems way too elaborate to be real). @ Rad I was not shitty town last game, I've been pushing for a Dandel Ion lynch all D2 and I even doubted his fakeclaim. My case against him was spot on, and my case against Clarity is quite good I think right now. Of course, I've been looking scummy as well, but this is something you have to expect when someone is posting without paying attention to his posts and is taking strong stances. I promise to stop the blue hunting. I'll move on when you vote Clarity though... | ||
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Djodref
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On November 06 2012 14:08 sylverfyre wrote: @Djodref You're getting increasingly hostile. You're defending outing as many blues as it takes after only 1 night in the name of scumhunting. A cop claiming himself and 1 townie today is not going to help for very far into the game as both of them will probably be dead by the time LyLo rolls around. Yes, we need to find scum for ourselves. However, blues need to survive for a while or else we're looking at 5 town v 2 mafia... mislynch one more time and we're at LyLo. If we have no blues at a 3v2 lylo, and we don't KNOW who the 2 mafia are, we're probably (but not necessarily) fucked. This is not the first questionable strategy you've pushed. I still disagree with how you want to approach lynching by not looking for a strict majority. I still think clarity is scummy looking. But right now, you're being incredibly fishy with your tactics and your statements. Don't forget all the points I brought against you day 1. And the fact that I thought that 1 of either you or debears was likely scum... and debears flipped town. @ sylverfire Ok, I'm dropping all the questions that you are believing is blue hunting. I'm stubborn but I might be reasonable sometimes (note how I also dropped the slips against you). But please take into account that I'm not afraid to take strong stances on controversial positions when see them as scummy positions. I would like you to reconsider your position on which one of Clarity and me is the most scummy. I know I have been aggressive but being accused of blue hunting when I feel that I'm the one doing the most part of the scum hunting in this town was really pissing me off. I'm calmer now | ||
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On November 06 2012 14:45 Rad wrote: By shitty town, I meant you didn't look town at all last game. Do you disagree? Don't really care how good your reads are if I can't believe a word you say. I was looking like shit because all the scumteam was pushing for my lynch. I have been also posting a lot of shit but that's something that you have to expect as town. I think that your actions and your general attitude is what is the most important. Anyway, calling me shitty town in my last game is not helping the atmosphere to get better Do you promise? If you vote Clarity, I'm going to address daoud's case against me at first then I'm going to see what I can find. I'm interested in sylver and Alsn. @ Rad My comments in bold font in your quote | ||
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On November 06 2012 14:23 sylverfyre wrote: I like what da0ud's doing. It basically amounts to "If we're so sure about clarity, why don't we stop focusing on him and find the second scum?" + Show Spoiler [Inactivity Warning] + Can't post more tonight, have to be up early in the morning (or I won't get a chance to vote in the election all day) and I might not post much tomorrow at all - I have class AND work. @ sylverfyre I want to secure a Clarity lynch today more than anything else. Do you understand that I have some doubts about it when you have your vote on my back ? | ||
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On November 06 2012 14:11 Obzy wrote: With regards to Sylverfyre - He said he'd be around for the day post and wasn't, but - that's just more of a note, and has absolutely nothing to do with my voting him. He made noise early in the game about a debears/djo (one of the above) as scum, particularly focusing debears. Looks at a scumteam of CC and debears during the role PM... stuff. Eventually switches his vote onto CC from debears, puts suspicion on Clarity [and db, of course]. It clearly isn't debears. He shows a strong town read on Rad, although I think that's fairly obvious, personally. (And now that I'm refreshing the last page to make sure I'm not missing something, he's shown up and redirects suspicion at Djo because debears flipped town.) I'm really a bit less certain what to think of this lol. If Clarity is town, and da0ud is town, it leaves Djo Sylv.. /shrug. Sylv's not addressing my vote on him at all, still. And apparently he just voted Djo too lol. If Djo/Sylv have a shootout, I'm okay with that at the moment, unless Clarity can be shown [by Rad or Alsn or da0ud, preferably] to have clear mafia signs. @ Obzy If you do not trust me, please check again debears cases and points against Clarity during D1/N1... | ||
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On November 06 2012 15:25 Obzy wrote: I was trying to. I voted Sylver, that was me attempting to push Sylver as a read and apparently I am just horrible at it because not a single person noticed or cared until now, at which point I'm told by you that it's not good enough. The lol is just how I type, I apologize for any confusion. I'll try to stop using it until I forget =l I had a strong Clar-is-scum read that got sort of shot down by doubts from Rad and Alsn, and not really being able to question adequately(apparently) earlier this morning.. Now there are votes on Clar and we're ignoring Sylv - ??? I don't understand. Until tomorrow afternoon (or maybe while I'm at work tomorrow), my vote is parked on Sylv and I think that other people should be voting Sylv too. If there's zero chance of a Sylv lynch because of lack of interest, lack of caring, lack of response to my attempt at a case from both other players and Sylv himself, I'll reconsider then, but seriously what the heck. I just don't get it. I'm not implying that Rad isn't town, it just astonishes me how the tide of opinion shifts, and in less than 30 minutes. This morning I would've been more than happy to vote Clarity, it was my intention to do so, and I feel like I was talked/intimidated out of it. Now, here we are again. @ Obzy Rad is doing this because I promised him to focus on someone else if he voted Clarity | ||
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Sylverfyre Too scummy to be scum ? Or am I fooling myself ? Part I --- The votes I personally find that sylverfyre is using his votes quite lightly. The reasons he is presenting for his votes are not documented enough and he is not giving us what he is trying to achieve with his votes. Please also note that he has only voted for town players until now (yes, I'm including myself in the town players). Here are some examples... On November 03 2012 14:44 sylverfyre wrote: <snip> ##Vote debears Your fluff, and your reaction against Alsn seem odd to me. Also, your claim of always being perfect about on at lynchtime. Now we can't even use it (in the future) as a scumtell on you because it'd turn into WIFOM. Here he is voting the most active town player for poor reasons. You cannot accuse someone being full or fluff without supporting it. This is just discrediting debears if you do it this way. The early FoS had been discarded by debears and the "always present at lynch" point was minor. Please note that he doesn't state that he wants to prevent debears from posting fluff with his vote. There is no clear motivation stated. On November 06 2012 13:44 sylverfyre wrote: This most recent post by you is even more ridiculously scummy. Don't care if you have to out all the blues while scumhunting? Maybe because you're actually blue-hunting? ##Vote Djodref Here he is voting me because I'm blue-hunting. No more explanation given, I don't know what he is expecting to do with his vote. Does he want me dead today ? Am I his top scum read ? Does he want me to stop blue hunting ? I do not know ! My biggest issue with his votes is that his MOTIVATIONS ARE NOT CLEAR ! Does he want to lynch, does he want to pressure ? I don't understand and I have a bad feeling about this... Advice to Sylverfyre - If you are town and your goal is to cast suspicion, I advice you to start making some real cases with good content against your scum reads and push them. Your (random) voting style makes you look suspicious. Part II --- The scumtells I don't know if sylverfyre is understanding the difference between the word "townies" and "players" but the way he is using "townie(s)" is some posts could be scumslips. I've decided that he must be the worst mafia player ever (in term of slipping) or that he is really genuine in his posts, regardless of his alignment. Here are some examples... On November 03 2012 14:44 sylverfyre wrote: Holy shit, this flavor. What. If we're gonna lynch a lurker, I'd rather it be early game than late, at least. But I think that we have more... dedication among the townies this game. There wasn't a long wait for the last few signups - everyone here seems pretty pumped to play some mafia seriously. I don't think lurker policy lynch will come up at all. <snip> Should have used players... On November 04 2012 16:27 sylverfyre wrote: @Obzy - I made a pressure vote. Debears responded to it. We went back and forth at each other for a while. When we started to get into a loop of OMGUS, I was starting to feel like it was a waste of time and space that wasn't bringing a lot to the town, I let the vote drop. Scum love nothing more than when two townies are at each others throats constantly without looking at other people. <snip> Would this sentence not make debaers and him 2 townies ? Yet he keeps on tunneling debears... HERE COMES THE ICING ON THE CAKE ! On November 05 2012 10:01 sylverfyre wrote: My chance following cheesecake voting debears? If cheese flips town, it's clarity or debears. Probably both. This post, one minute before Cheese flips town, while sylver has still his vote parked on him. Biggest scum tell ever, you can find him in all the scum hunting guidebooks for beginners. Advice to Sylverfyre: If you are town, please learn the difference between "townies" and "players" and try not to slip. Town players can be lynched for slips. Part III --- Activity and Scumhunting Both of them lack of consistence. Seriously, you cannot go on like this, sylver, you are going to get lynched... I don't want to go into the details for this part, I'm waiting for him to step up Part IV --- Why I still think he might be town Too scummy to be scum Sylverfyre obviously stands out Sylverfyre is the only one really going after me, which shows some originality | ||
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I don't know about Rad and Alsn. I'm very worried about Rad stance on Clarity and I want Alsn to explain how he came off with a scum Cheese case in 2 hours just before the lynch. My read on sylverfyre is null. I want Clarity dead today. @ Clarity If you are town, the only way to redeem yourself is to seriously scumhunt from now on. Don't waste your time on defense and I would recommend you to not waste your time on me, but that's up to you. | ||
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Why did you call me scum at the beginning of D2 ? and now I see in your filter On November 06 2012 14:26 Rad wrote: <snip> I'll be honest with you though. I'm null on him now, or maybe leaning town. He's ridiculously passionate about his clarity tunneling, or at least that's how I read it, and that feels townie to me. Not that I'd get a scum read from him if he wasn't being like this, but I dunno, that's just how I'm feeling atm. <snip> You didn't even explain the FoS you had against me this morning ? What's happening ? Why the sudden changes of heart ? | ||
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Could you please give me a summary of your actions during D1 ? I'm interested to know your point of view... | ||
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On November 05 2012 15:23 Rad wrote: <skip> What if clarity PM'd the host asking about this before the cheese incident? What if he just realized that you can't read into the flavor too much because, well, it's true, you can't read into the flavor too much? Why must "he's scum!" be the answer? Null read to me.[/QUOTE] How did you know that Clarity had sent a PM to the host about this subject before he told us ? | ||
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On November 06 2012 17:49 Clarity_nl wrote: Now that you're finally giving me the chance. Or no it's not even that, it's that you're being forced to give me the chance. Why would you add that I shouldn't make a case on you? please explain. @ Clarity I'm town, you would just waste your time. Could you tell us how you came with the idea to ask the host a question about the VT flavor ? | ||
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On November 06 2012 17:51 Clarity_nl wrote: How did you know that Clarity had sent a PM to the host about this subject before he told us ? Because of the time it took me to reply in the thread, and the hours upon hours it takes for marv to get back to you (just kidding marv)[/QUOTE] @ Clarity How could it be possible for you to answer this for Rad ? | ||
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On November 06 2012 17:53 Clarity_nl wrote: I have said this, a million times. The VT flavor in the PM is different than the flavor in the OP. Please read my posts, stop repeating questions and accusations if you actually believe they have merit. @ Clarity Did you think, as Cheese did, that VT claim could be imb4 in this game ? | ||
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I want to secure a lynch on you before anything else. You have already escaped your lynch yesterday and I don't want this to happen again. I'm disappointed that people are denying me information because it might out the blues. Scumhunting should come first, the best way to protect the blues is to pose a greater threat to the mafia as green than the blue themselves. I didn't find anyone showing such anti-town behavior as you. You didn't take a single stance before debears case against you and your interactions with me and Cheese don't make any sense if you were town. I might be wrong so I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself. Go on and make the best case of your life | ||
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On November 05 2012 14:02 da0ud wrote: I have not finished reading the thread, but this is exactly the way I feel about Djo's attitude that lynch. -> He asked to be put on the list of lynch candidates to prove his innocence. However this comes at 1.11am his time in Seoul, Korea (for those who still don't know. Btw Djo would be good if you could update your profile to show Korea instead of France, I am french as well though showing HK in my profile, we lost too much time with this confusion). This is pretty late for him to ask to be put as a lynch candidate and have time to prepare his defense. He has even used this trick against Clarity, saying he cannot defend himself on a case that is suppose to come. When I proposed to be a lynch candidate, this was an act of bravado. It was to test the confidence of my detractors into their case against me. Do they really believe I'm scum and post a case against me while looking bad because I'm not going to be able myself ? The result is that nobody made a case against me. So I guess that nobody really believed that I was scum. Clarity and Alsn have threatened to make case against me so I know now that it was empty threats. -> Moreover, Djo is the one who keeps quoting scum slips here and there subjectively. + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2012 20:22 Djodref wrote: @ sylverfyre So let me sum up the situation. You join the thread and directly vote for debears mainly because there is a lot of fluff in it. Then you say that you are voting him to "cast suspicion with your vote". I'm sorry but I'm voting somebody when I find them suspicious, not to cast suspicion on him. Do you know who is voting innocent players to cast suspicion on them ? Mafia. (Not sure if debears is innocent in this case, I have seen things I don't really like in his filter) I'm taking this for a scumslip and the most suspicious thing I have seen in this thread so far. ##Vote sylverfire @ Clarity It answers your question On November 04 2012 00:06 Djodref wrote: Well, I have voted for sylver before you for a different scumslip so I definitively agree Anyway they are good points, the scumslip you have found is better than mine, his vote on you is quite unfounded and he has also totally forgot to mention me jumping on Cheese in his post. I think the chances for him to be scum are great. On November 04 2012 03:30 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese The word "townies" doesn't connote as "players". Kush helped me to understand this in my very first game on these forums. People don't use townies when they can use players. The meaning is different. It is a slip, so now we have to decided if it is a scumslip or not. The way sylver reacted to it makes me thing that it is a scumslip indeed. On November 04 2012 16:55 Djodref wrote: @ sylver So are you saying that debears is a townie ? Slipping again ? I'm not sure what you want to say by "he doesn't exactly look pristine". Could you elaborate ? Sylver doesn't seem to understand the difference between the words "townies" and "players". Please keep in mind that debears also called him on it and I'm pretty sure he was going to bring it again in his promised case against sylver which he couldn't post. -> Finally, Djo as jumped on the case against Cheese as soon as he slept.Not budging from his position. I was wrong saying that Debears sheeped on this one. He votes CC first, fair enough, then Djo voted again. Here are three of his consecutive posts : + Show Spoiler + On November 05 2012 09:02 Djodref wrote: @ Cheese So, it's ok for you to get the thread derailed for a joke at one hour before the lynch ? Why did you claim, for real ? On November 05 2012 09:03 Djodref wrote: I still want my Clarity lynch by the way On November 05 2012 09:19 Djodref wrote: WHY DID YOU CLAIM AT THIS MOMENT, CHEESE ? MOTIVATIONS ? ##Unvote ##Vote Cheese What happened to you wanting your "Clarity lynch " ?When everybody started to focus on Cheese and his ill-timed claim, I thought that the momentum to lynch Clarity was lost. So I had no problem to switch on Cheese when this guy was not making any sense and was proclaiming my top scumread "confirmed town". I thought it was part of a plan to save Clarity. Check the thread and you can see that I was on the same line that obzy at that time and that I was thinking that the scumteam was Clarity/Cheese. Conclusion : I think Djo is blending in, attacking people on small things (nitpicking himself while pointing out we should not nitpick in his post), and try to prove his innocence by showing his is able to fight his way against a lynch while bullying people who would actually do it because he won't be here to do so. Me ? Blending in ? I'm the one with the biggest number of cases so far. I don't attack people on small things. I didn't set up Clarity, he gave him a fair warning. People didn't take a chance against me because they didn't have the balls to do it, which is not very townie. @ daoud My comments in bold font in your quote. | ||
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On November 05 2012 15:23 Rad wrote: <snip> What if clarity PM'd the host asking about this before the cheese incident? What if he just realized that you can't read into the flavor too much because, well, it's true, you can't read into the flavor too much? Why must "he's scum!" be the answer? Null read to me. On November 05 2012 21:01 Clarity_nl wrote: <snip> I asked marv about the flavor role PMs way before Cheese claimed. The reason I sounded so "condescending" (as you put it) is because I wanted him to shut up and explain why he claimed, and to try and stop others from claiming, but things went to shit fast. The reason I didn't say this earlier was because I had to check with marv if I was allowed to post this. @ Rad How did you know that Clarity send a PM to marv before he admitted it himself for the first time ? Please look at the timestamps. | ||
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I'm not sure what time you are talking about in your answer... Is it KST ? Could you give me the time again with a post you have sent to the thread around the same time when you sent your question to marv ? | ||
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On November 06 2012 19:01 da0ud wrote: And Djo, I agree that not too many people are currently around, but you were supposed to switch focus for some time. As far as I know apart from one (nicely formatted ) case on Sylver there is nothing else than extra tunnelling on Clarity. At least find other new arguments against him to bring to the table. Who cares about the time of the PM with Marv. Marv himself said there wont be any copy paste of anything so Clarity will obviously give you an answer that satisfy you. You are flooding the thread here. @ daoud I think that I'm investing myself more than you in this game so I'm not going to accept your critic for the fact that I did only focus on sylver. I'll answer your case again though... | ||
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Night or Day, I'm expecting a fake blue claim from you. I wanted to force you to produce it and try to show how your blue claim is fake. I did not manage to do it last time for dandel but I should get my revenge Given your experience in this game, I doubt that you actually went for marv to ask your infamous question about the flavor, in the case where you are VT. | ||
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On November 06 2012 20:11 da0ud wrote: Again not what I said at all : I said since you announced you would stop tunneling clarity you had only one post (a case against sylver) before shifting back to tunnelling clarity. Nothing against your investment in that game. I see you have not slept much indeed. Ps : sorry phone posting ok, I got your point. I couldn't control myself ^^ | ||
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But I don t think that you can really be blue... So there is a big chance for you to be scum call it confirmation bias if you want, I dont understand why you want argue with me... Y u no scumhunt ? | ||
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Here is what I expect of VT Clarity ~ not sending a question to the host about the flavor in your own VT pm, which Clarity did ~ even with some doubts, recognize the genuiness of the other two VT going into a high five festival and join the festival, which Clarity did not do My conclusion: you are not VT or it s really unlikely and you have not natural reactions for a newbie please tell me where I am wrong | ||
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On November 06 2012 21:04 Clarity_nl wrote: You are wrong in the fact that no matter which role I am I would have noticed the flavor difference in PM and OP. This automatically answers your second point, why the hell would I go into a high five festival, giving scum more info about who's VT and who's blue. Do you have any idea the power you would have given to town with 3 confirmed townies ? No, you wanted to avoid this, so you spread doubt and confusion. My point is that you would have sympatize with debears and cheese if you were also a VT, especially with Cheese because you had no reason to suspect him beforehand (his play being very similar to yours), even with the extra information that you had, because you would have been before in their position, ie with no information at all. Did you see debears reaction after this, he tried to confirm all the VT alltogether. It would have ended the game... I'm sorry but you are not VT, and I hope that all the other VTs in this game can realize this after this poat. | ||
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On November 06 2012 21:42 Clarity_nl wrote: Answer my damn question, what did you mean by "given your experience this game" I mean that you are a newb, and newb dont go and ask questions to the host. Ok, Clarity, I have a question for you. Let's assume for an instant that you are Clarity the regular fapper. According to you, what would have thought Clarity the regular fapper when he realized the flavors were different between the OP and the PM ? On a side note, your scumhunting looks like a defense move... | ||
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I would like to know if anyone was sharing this point of view ^^ | ||
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Could you give me your own sum-up of your scumhunting actions so far ? Who would you like to lynch today ? | ||
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Alsn, you are not matching at all your usual activity level as town and you have only targeted town players until now (debears and Cheese). What is happening to you ? I'm using my vote to pressure you into making cases ##unvote ##Vote Alsn | ||
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Why it is very unlikely for Clarity to be town
I couldn't resist before going to bed ^^ | ||
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Would anyone be up for a lynch on sylverfyre today ? | ||
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[b]@ Rad[b] Could you address the questions I've addressed to you before ? Do you mind me asking why you spend so much time defending Clarity when you should be scumhunting ? What is your interest in all this ? @ Sylver I know that is was not possible to solve the game with a mass roleclaim. I wanted to say that confirmed town players are more important than blue roles. | ||
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Clarity didn't want me to have time to prepare my defense against his case to begin with On November 05 2012 02:35 Clarity_nl wrote: Wait, where are you living currently? I didn't want to discuss your scumminess with you because I'd rather have an entire case up, rather than tell you then and give you time to prepare and possible post stuff to contradict my arguements before my case goes up. | ||
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##Vote Clarity_nl | ||
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You have all pissed me off seriously with all the "no blue hunting" comments and so on. I want Clarity to give us his role. Don't worry about outing the blues, I'm going to do this myseld: I claim Jail keeper You can find the breadcrumb here On November 03 2012 13:06 Djodref wrote: @ debears Did I answer your question ? I'm not sure which one you were talking about. I guessed it was the one about "why cheese and not me?" I need to go to attend a wedding at Souel Gardien Hoteal soon so I would like to know you have more questions. Gardien means keeper in French. Look it up. Add this to my act of bravado and all the stuff I've said about the roles and the blues and my jailkeeper post during N1 On November 05 2012 16:07 Djodref wrote: @ daoud You are right but this kind of reasoning could lead us into a WIFOM hell. In my honest opinion, Clarity is very likely to be scum, so a possible jailkeeper would have good chances to prevent him from killing. Maybe the mafia is going to listen to me as well and use the other member to carry the night kill, maybe they are going to use Clarity anyway, maybe I'm totally wrong and Clarity is town. I don't know and I don't even know if we have a jailkeeper but I would say that it's the best thing for him to do. Anyway, it's down to the jailkeeper decision (if he exists), he could also decide to jail me to give me protection. I wouldn't mind this and I think you can understand my frustration about being called a blue-hunter. I have blocked Alsn N1 by the way because I thought he was scum with Clarity. But right now, I would say that Rad and Clarity is the scumteam ! | ||
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Your role and your question to marv, RIGHT NOW !!!!! | ||
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On November 07 2012 02:46 Alsn wrote: Yea, so? What's the scum motivation behind that? Explain to me why a town would discuss parts of his case with someone he considers scum beforehand? @ Alsn Yes, I understand this point, but what about the fact that he backs off after that because I'm pressuring him and chose to attack debears instead of me ? I've done everything to piss him off and there is still no case against me ! | ||
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Nobody excepts me considers this suspicious as hell after all the posts that Rad has made to defend Clarity ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 03:01 Alsn wrote: Woah, that's an interesting claim to be sure. Not sure how we could confirm it though? If I recall correctly role blocks are not notified?(At the very least I certainly didn't get any roleblock notifier) No, roleblocks are not notified, but you can easily see how I am pissed off when I'm called a blue hunter... And my main reason to do see is to prevent Clarity and Rad from using the argument "Imma protect the blues". I told you I didn't care if I have to out the blues in order to scumhunt. I was not kidding... | ||
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On November 06 2012 22:49 Clarity_nl wrote: I will be back in my evening, ~4 hours from now. @ Clarity I want my answer ASAP ! I told you it was going to be a waste of time to write a case against me | ||
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@ Alsn I don't buy his PM stuff. I don't like how Rad and sylverfyre wanted to shut me down because I was blue-hunting. Right now, I really don't like Rad made me promise to focus on someone else. That was pure manipulation, he has clearly no intent to lynch Clarity. I find Rad's behavior early D2 very strange with his 180 on me... Anyway, defending people (like defending Obzy and Clarity) is always a good mafia move because newbies trust you and follow your lead (Obzy case) and you can also defend your scummates. | ||
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On November 07 2012 03:17 Rad wrote: Oh god, djo's still going at it even after my last post. ##Unvote I'll get to your questions when I get a chance. Keep in mind I'm working atm, so even if you can't sleep djo, I don't have time right now to fight with you. I spent time on my last post because it spelled shit out for you, but you ignored it, or maybe you just can't grasp it. If you want me to be on the clarity lynch train with you, you better come out with better arguments because I'm reading him as town. Maybe obzy will jump in and scum hunt clarity with a clear head since he's at least clearly not confirmation biased against him. @ Rad Can you tell me what Clarity has done for town ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 03:24 Rad wrote: Jailkeeper eh? I was sure you were cop and that you had a red read on clarity (and that there's a framer who framed him). That explained to me why you were so passionately hellbent on him being scum. Hrm. Why block alsn over trying to save debears since you thought that was the obvious NK? Isn't it more of a shot in the dark that alsn a) is scum and b) will be the one to make the kill, than it would have been that debears (or me, tbh) was the target of the NK? @ Rad Tell me you have done for town during D1 and N1 to deserve a NK ? By the way, all your stuff regarding my latest arguments against Clarity are just points to show that he didn't ask the question. It's kind of bullshit because I don't believe him from the beginning. I have better stuff incoming. | ||
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On November 07 2012 03:27 Alsn wrote: Oh wait, he says he JK'd me because he thought I was scum? yeah, I have been stupid, by the way you did not comment my "mini-case" against you at the end of N1 | ||
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On November 07 2012 03:29 Clarity_nl wrote: Okay... I'm back. A few questions pop to mind immediately. Djo, why did you claim? I don't think you were in any real danger of getting lynched, and I don't think this changes anything about your suspicion of me. I claimed because I'm fed up with the "no blue hunt" position that everyone has here" and I want you to claim and provide the question you asked to marv. And I don't want people to waste their time thinking if I'm scum or not What is the flavor in your PM? I'll wait for you to claim before answering this question Why do you want me to claim so bad? because I hate the way you are denying me information Why do you believe that outing yourself at blue makes it less likely that you were blue hunting? You obviously do not want to use your abilities on other blues. Are you saying that I'm scum ? Why didn't you protect debears? You explained he was an obvious NK candidate. I was stupid If you jailed Alsn N1, why did you suspect him today? Why did you "pressure vote" him and now take it back? I've been suspicious of Alsn but Rad is ever more suspicious today. I don't understand his "hard defense" stance from a town perspective I have some calls to make right now, after that I'll read through some filters and be back. | ||
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On November 05 2012 07:33 Clarity_nl wrote: @ Alsn I don't think there's a way for me to comment on cheese without screwing myself over. I don't think "staying neutral" is a scum tell on D1, but people clearly think so since it's the lynchpin (lol) of the cases on me. Don't you see how this post reeks of guiltiness ? On November 05 2012 07:46 Clarity_nl wrote: I think that if you were to go on: being neutral and not making points = scum (on day 1) then Cheese would be a good target. I'm not convinced that it's scummy though, as I think keeping a clear head and taking in as much information as possible is most important day 1. I find there are always people to push information out of others, and I feel that (for me personally) if I push people I tend to get confirmation bias, so I avoid it early. Please notice how Clarity avoided to push during all this game... On November 05 2012 07:59 Clarity_nl wrote: <snip? Let me rephrase... I don't think that because you're not pushing hard /you're not accusing someone of being scum is being scummy. I actually feel that (WIFOM incoming) scum wants to be active in this format, and gain town favor early, ride that out to a win. @ Rad He's being accused of the same things I am, if I argue for/against Cheese it'll all be major WIFOM If you are town and someone is playing the same way you play and is attacked for the same things that you are attacked. there is no WIFOM. The only thing that you should do is sympathize and defend this guy ![b/] | ||
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On November 07 2012 03:42 Rad wrote: EBWOP: Also, let me point out that more people considered me town than considered debears town. @ Rad I don't think that you were a danger for the mafia. Not really pushing anyone, no big cases, no strong stances... Where are your cases by the way ? You should stop the defense mode and start to find a better target than Clarity if you want to stick to your guns | ||
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Could you stay for a little while and give us your thoughts on the latest events ? | ||
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On November 06 2012 13:35 Djodref wrote: <skip> Secondly, my arguments are not stupid. If we assume that we have a town Clarity having a scum read on scum Djodref. Then, town Clarity is
I post my arguments again because I want to promote my lynch target ! Rad had bashed me for these points before... | ||
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He was retaining information to prevent "blue-hunting" Now that I have outed myself, I want him to claim his role and to give us the exact question he has asked to marv. And the more time it takes, the more suspicious I am (if it's even possible) | ||
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On November 07 2012 04:11 Clarity_nl wrote: I still don't see the reason for claiming, but after him saying he'll wait until I claim to show the flavor of his pm I'm inclined to believe him. Marv told me that blue roles are not allowed to claim with flavor, only with their vanilla role names, like djo did. I figured I would ask in case he made up something. Please explain better why you claimed, djo. I don't see "because I was being told I was blue hunting" as a reason. Why do you want me to claim? and I've already said what I asked marv, why don't you read the damn thread. @ Clarity I've claimed because I wanted some leverage to lynch you. Are you a Regular Fapper ? Are you a blue ? or.. Are you scum ? Do not waste time and go scumhunt (if you are town) because I think that your life depends on this right now... | ||
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My claim makes sense and I hope to be considered as confirmed town soon. With this statis, my opinions carry more weight because other town players can fully trust me. Don't you see how much I have committed to lynch you ? I hope I can move people with my commitment ! | ||
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You and Rad have a big fight to give to survive. We still have some time so I change still change my mind ^^ | ||
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I have no fucking idea why you were so reluctant to give any information. And honestly, the only thing I am waiting from your side right now is to find me someone who is more likely to be scum than you. You are wasting your time while discussing with me... | ||
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I would like you to answer my previous questions for you, especially the one with the reference to a possible Clarity PM to marv and the one where I ask you to summarize your scum hunting D1/N1. By the way, the fact that you are using the information that you were not NKed to switch your focus to the people that you were having townreads on in a list that you made ages ago is utter bullshit. Because there is no way for you to know why you not being NKed. Absolutely no way ! Seriously, what was that shit ? Do you personally believe that Clarity is blue ? | ||
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I think he wanted to say something like, "I think you know that I'm town too" | ||
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On November 07 2012 07:30 Clarity_nl wrote: @ Alsn + Show Spoiler + On November 06 2012 03:00 Clarity_nl wrote: Date: 11/5/12 2:48 That's not what I asked. I asked if everyone was aware of the VT flavor. If I'm VT -> I want to make sure if I should claim (when the time comes) Townie or Regular Fapper, and I wonder if scum/blue knows flavour. If I'm Blue -> I want to know if scum knows VT flavor, and if VT knows the rest knows flavour. If I'm Scum -> I want to know if blues know flavor, and if VT know the rest knows flavour. Easy for you to say, there are only so many hours in a day and I spent all of mine defending myself, and still am. I was hoping today would be calmer because it's the nightcycle, but it seems people would rather push and push and push rather than collect their thoughts. It does mean something, but what it meant (in my eyes) was: "I'm having doubts about debears being scum, especially with the way he's reacting to all of this" Cheese looked scummiest to me at that point, and YES, it made it so that I didn't get lynched. Surprise, a 100% wrong lynch looked worse to me than the person who looked scummiest to me. (See, I can do sarcasm as well) My ambiguity is because the actual PM has quotes by marv, and will reveal my role. @ Clarity I found in your filter something that strongly indicates that you are VT. I don't think you can be blue. I don't understand what you are bitching about if you are VT. In the case I'm right and you are VT, what is your fucking reason to not reveal that you are VT ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 08:45 Obzy wrote: Oh, sorry. I meant - I think that Clarity is aware that his case is incorrect. I knew he'd vote immediately after I pointed it out, it would be utterly insane to not do so (and indeed, he does so within a minute or so). But if you spend the time to put up a big case, why wouldn't you vote with it, unless you've already voted? Posting a case should mean that you're so convinced that you are willing to put yourself in the spotlight and ready to defend your opinion. But he didn't vote? I don't like the word "scumslip", but voting sure is a thing to forget in your case >_>; IMO. He even took the time for nice formatting and font coloring. My wording above (that you quoted) is poor, I noticed it after posting but didn't really want to post an EBWOP. I definitely don't think Clarity is town due to the lack of voting, I meant to show that he seemed insincere in calling me Mafia since he didn't actually post a vote. If that makes sense ^^ @ Obzy That's not a good point at all. Mafia players and town players forget to vote all the time. It's not alignment indicative. Please be nice with Clarity and discuss with him by the way, we don't know for sure that he is mafia... | ||
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On November 07 2012 08:46 Clarity_nl wrote: What the fuck, you've been saying I'm blue or scum for the last 30 hours. I'm being vague, and continue being vague, because it might entice scum to NK me, if I ever get out of your 24/7 scope. Claiming does nothing for me. That's why I want to see you dead. Some things point in direction that you are not blue, some things point in direction that you are not VT. Conclusion -> you are scum | ||
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On November 07 2012 08:46 Clarity_nl wrote: What the fuck, you've been saying I'm blue or scum for the last 30 hours. I'm being vague, and continue being vague, because it might entice scum to NK me, if I ever get out of your 24/7 scope. Claiming does nothing for me. @ Clarity Well, claiming could maybe save you. If people believe your claim, that is... If you are town and blue, the sooner you claim, the more time you have to show everybody the truth of your claim. If you are town and VT, I don't understand why you would not have already claimed it already. I'm sorry to tell you this, but the longer you take to claim, the more it makes you red, at least in my eyes... | ||
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On November 07 2012 09:07 Clarity_nl wrote: You just said the same thing 4 different ways and I still don't understand. I don't have a claim that would make me look more like town, isn't that obvious from the fact that I haven't claimed? @ Clarity In this case, you have no choice but to go the scumhunt way. But I want to warn everyone against a last minute blue claim. In my eyes, a last minute blue claim from Clarity would be a fakeclaim ! On top on not really showing a town behavior, I think there is a hole in your 'PM to marv" story, but I don't know where is the hole exactly yet. I have arguments against a VT Clarity and I have arguments against a blue Clarity. I don't understand why you are not giving me the info to allow me to attack you so that you can defend yourself properly... | ||
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Ok, I understand, but I don't want to see last minute shenanigans. That's all... | ||
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Anyway, did you find more things on Obzy ? Are you convinced he is the right target for today ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 09:21 Rad wrote: @djo Do you not realize that he just claimed? I don't want no hints. He already gave me an headache during N1. Hints are giving him room for later... | ||
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On November 07 2012 08:57 Obzy wrote: Bleh. I had typed up a response to your post, Djo, but accidentally closed the tab I don't want to retype it; but basically, I don't really understand why you'd want me to rationally discuss with Clarity when you intend to lynch him. I'm gonna post what I wrote so far (It's a long filter analysis up until about where Djo starts attacking Clarity).+ Show Spoiler + Okay so I'm typing this in a text file so if the formatting is stupid I apologize in advance lol. (sorry for the lol, da0ud ^^) With regards to Clarity and why he is scum: I am going to spoiler this because I'm basically just going through his filter point by point and taking things that I can comment on. + Show Spoiler + I think the two things to take away from all this though: - Debears defended Cheese - Djodref tunneling Cheese All three of these people are town. Just as a side note. (If somebody would like my thoughts on Djo's JK claim, I can deliver.) Last three pages was djo, you and me. Still no word from da0ud and sylver. I think you are wrong in saying Obzy is useless. He might not have posted a lot but he makes good points or asks decent questions when he does, maybe you feel that way because he's biggest post is directed at you? This was in response to debears asking Clar if anything stood out as weird - I don't really think it's particularly important, but I thought it funny that he commented he didn't think I was useless at that time period. [With regards to Clar's list of reads] Considered Djo slightly scum, null on deb, null on Cheese. Slightly town on myself. So with all that said, I only have two slight scumreads on Alsn and Djo, I am no longer suspect of Alsn, at least not as much. Although he seems to have a hard on for debears and djo he's making decent points and trying to further conversation. Cool, so Alsn was down with debears and Djo. Mental note I guess. Cautions Rad about the perils of not having any reads - Ehn Comments at 16:22 Nov4 that he'll be making a case (or multiple) that day, to Djo. Specifically namedrops Hapa and comments he'll ignore the advice people follow, taking issue with its quality. (Apologizes later.) (In a response to Djo): On November 04 2012 17:20 Clarity_nl wrote: Top 3 choices in my eyes are Debears, Sylver and you. As for people who haven't answered my questions: Alsn, Cheese, Sylver. I'll have to look and see if he pushes Sylver at all. He mentions Cheese not looking scummy ~16ish hours before the deadline. Posts a defense from debears' post. On November 05 2012 02:54 Clarity_nl wrote: If you are town you can talk your way out of a lynch regardless. It's not like I would've posted my case an hour beforehand, right about now is when I would've posted it. I am currently working on a different case while also answering questions, so please bear with me. I will keep djo's case on hand in case I get lynched. I will post it before the deadline if it seems I'll die. Otherwise saving it for D2 Okay so apparently he had planned on posting a case on Djo today. That obviously will not occur unless da0ud claims JK or something, but w/e. I find the line "If you are town you can talk your way out of a lynch regardless" somewhat amusing; as a side note - I don't really know if he's talking about Djo or just in general. He posts a case on debears, that looks fairly legitimate if the knowledge that debears was VT didn't exist. (Votes DB at that time) - When debears asks him to post his case on Djo, he chooses not to, largely because he intends to on Day 2 or if he is going to be lynched. He (afterwards) mentions that he doesn't want to post a case on Djo if Djo won't be there to defend himself - I really don't like this. Why would you care if the person wasn't around to defend themselves if you think they're scum? And if you don't think they're scum, why would you post a case on them? I guess he can have points for Chivalry, but I think that he didn't want to post a case because he knew Djo was town. Clar has some commentary on how staying neutral isn't bad D1, I disagree with this, but I've already covered that in this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379514¤tpage=40#785 (It happens to be the one that I mention not feeling comfortable about voting CC - this is still taking place before debears picks up that CC is trying to claim.) Then the CC claim stuff - By this point, I had voted Clar largely due to process of elimination. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379514¤tpage=37#730 I liked Djo and debears' cases, I didn't like Clarity's case on debears, and between Clar and Sylv, I voted Clar. (I largely got my town read on db _because_ he hadn't gone and pointed out that I was sort of shitty and thus Mafia, despite having questioned me.) After CC's claim, Clarity mentioned that assumptions couldn't be made based on host behavior. This didn't make sense to me unless he was blue or scum, which he addressed later- I couldn't really find fault with that at the time, it seemed like he had just been thinking more than I had if he was VT yet asked about the VT flavor. He brings up a quote of mine telling him to convince me who _is_ scum, rather than trying to convince me that he isn't- he basically says that he's too busy defending himself to push his scumreads. On November 05 2012 09:28 Clarity_nl wrote: I think if Cheese flips red there's no way debears is scum.... 9 player mafia and scum busses eachother day 1? No way. Given that he'd posted a case on DB, this looks relevant; but if he knew Cheese had no chance of flipping red, it doesn't hurt the fact he's only actually made a case on debears (up until this point) at all. Gets angry at CC for not defending himself (I concur with this) but then votes him for his defense being WIFOM, over his scumread of debears? _And then says, On November 05 2012 09:42 Clarity_nl wrote: Wait, so you're voting debears to save yourself when you're VT? What the hell. Debears was his scumread and vote up until this point, and when CC changes his vote to be on Debears, he questions it. Why why why. There should be zero confusion if CC really was VT, given that he is basically agreeing with what Clarity had assumed up until this point; but once Clarity switches, he questions it. Clar mentions that the logical thing to do would be to jump on him to save himself, instead of Djo, then debears, then him. Djo is town, debears is town, ??? The comment looks like it's trying to indicate that "Clarity must be town, CC did not considering jumping onto him at first" to me. I will try to continue this later tonight, but I'm done for the moment. I'm going to catch up a few posts in the thread and then be afk for a couple of hours (until my work day ends, I get home, and I finish eating dinner) - I wanted to get my point-by-point thoughts to Alsn before he had to go to sleep. @ Obzy I want you to interact with him in the case where you are wrong... | ||
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On November 07 2012 09:26 Clarity_nl wrote: His reaction makes me more convinced that he is scum, yes. Are you not going to address any of the contradictions I just pointed out? @ Clarity I'll look at his filter very carefully when I have time at work, which is not the case right now... | ||
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Who would be Obzy partner in crime in your opinion ? @ Rad Y u no post cases ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 09:50 Clarity_nl wrote: I said @ Djo...... These would be the contradictions: Ok, I know for of fact that you are not blue, like 99,9%... And just wanted to push you for a fake blue claim. Because I thought that was the move that you were preparing during N1 and also today. Because I don't understand what is so hard for you to say that you are VT, regardless of your alignment. | ||
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On November 07 2012 09:46 Rad wrote: I'll play this how I want to. I have no case to post right now, and defending myself all day has been exhausting. I'm waiting on da0ud's thoughts on the question I gave him. @ Rad So, you are not worried that we are setting up a Clarity lynch ? You were so sure he was town. Why are you not fighting for him anymore ? | ||
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I don't know, you could maybe try to find a more suitable target ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 10:12 Clarity_nl wrote: Djo you sure are betting a lot of town's stack on me. What if you are wrong about me and I'm blue, and I claimed because you pushed me to? Now there are two exposed blue roles and we spent 48 hours doing nothing but hunting me. You answered your own question. It's not hard for me to claim VT, regardless of my alignment. @ Clarity Either you are not blue, either you lied before regarding the question you supposedly asked marv. That's a fact I know for sure. It's quite logical from my point of view
So you are scum, especially when you add on top of it that your general behavior is lacking of townie traits. I would reconsider the possibility of a blue Clarity if you can find the post where you lied | ||
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On November 07 2012 10:22 Rad wrote: Shit just goes in circles with you. It's truly exhausting. @ Rad Ok, play the way you want, but please understand that from my point of view, it comes off as really weird that you are not panicking somehow and that is looks ok for you to wait for a while. On the other hand, I'm also exhausted, so I'll give you a break. I'm sorry ^^ | ||
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On November 07 2012 10:37 Clarity_nl wrote: It's weird that he's not panicking? I refuse to acknowledge any of your points as I've been over all of them before. The only new thing you said was that you claim I lied in one of my posts, yet instead of convincing people, you try to send me on a wild goose hunt. @ Clarity Because I think there is a slight possibility for you to be a bad and stubborn VT. If you were blue with the same information that I have, you would better understand my position After all, all this game is about is information ^^ | ||
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On November 07 2012 11:01 Clarity_nl wrote: Just because you've consistently shown to not read my posts or outright ignore them: if this is about why I asked for blue flavor, I already answered that. I'll write my final case against you when I can... I don't want to discuss with you anymore, I've definitively taken my decision for today and I'm not going to move from it. | ||
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It's ok this game is hard. It requires a great investment. I feel that your post is honest and sincere. If you think you can trust me, please sheep my vote on Clarity | ||
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On November 07 2012 11:28 sylverfyre wrote: Djo, what exactly, to be clear, are you calling out as Clarity's lie? Please wait for my final case for your answer. Anyway I cannot call him a liar if he does not claim blue. If he is blue then he has lied before and I'm not going to say where before he claims. This is a battle of information between the scumteam and me right now. Please trust me when I am saying that I have more information at my disposal than him because I'm truly the jailkeeper. He would be able to show me his contradiction if we were sharing the same amount of info ^^ But, most importantly, please analyze both our behaviors. Who looks guilty ? Who lloks confident ? Why would I push him so hard for a claim at the risk of having everyone against me ? Check all the cases that I've brought against Clarity so far and balance them with the points that I've been made against me. I guess that you can figure out by yourself that you have to vote Clarity today... By the way, are you scum ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 04:11 Clarity_nl wrote: I still don't see the reason for claiming, but after him saying he'll wait until I claim to show the flavor of his pm I'm inclined to believe him. Marv told me that blue roles are not allowed to claim with flavor, only with their vanilla role names, like djo did. I figured I would ask in case he made up something. Please explain better why you claimed, djo. I don't see "because I was being told I was blue hunting" as a reason. Why do you want me to claim? and I've already said what I asked marv, why don't you read the damn thread. I can at least give you a first reason why I'm sure Clarity is not blue. There is a second reason that I'm going to keep for myself at the moment. Please note how Clarity said, "marv told me" ! I knew this rule regarding the blue flavor as well but I knew it from the beginning. Marv didn't tell me anything about it, it's already in my role PM. Even if its a poor wording choice from Clarity, a blue Clarity would have understood that we share the same info and would have directly believed my claim at 100%. You can see that he is doubting it later in the thread. I hope this is enough to convince you that Clarity is not blue. So you can realize that he is either scum or very bad and stubborn VT. | ||
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On November 07 2012 10:12 Clarity_nl wrote: Djo you sure are betting a lot of town's stack on me. What if you are wrong about me and I'm blue, and I claimed because you pushed me to? Now there are two exposed blue roles and we spent 48 hours doing nothing but hunting me. You answered your own question. It's not hard for me to claim VT, regardless of my alignment. @ Rad What do you think of this post ? Is it more likely to come from a scum Clarity, a blue Clarity or a VT Clarity ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 03:48 Djodref wrote: More on the interactions between Clarity and Cheese Don't you see how this post reeks of guiltiness ? Please notice how Clarity avoided to push during all this game... If you are town and someone is playing the same way you play and is attacked for the same things that you are attacked. there is no WIFOM. The only thing that you should do is sympathize and defend this guy ![b/] @ Rad What do you think of this post ? Does it look like a scum Clarity ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 12:17 Rad wrote: It's a hypothetical, so I can't really read into it. I agree with him, what if he's blue and you pushed him so hard he had to claim? With you showing why you're sure he's not blue, well, that gives you even more blue credit IMO, but doesn't take away VT potential from him. I do (now) get why you pushed so hard to try to make him claim blue though. [b]@ Rad[b] Because I have a trump card against a fakeclaim from Clarity He would be 100% scum if he claimed blue so I wanted him to claim. But I hope my first point is enough to make you understand that he is not blue. | ||
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If you are still inclined to believe in a VT Clarity, how would you evaluate his amount and quality of scumhunting ? | ||
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I'll prepare a final case against Clarity. But one more question, do you think it makes sense from a VT perspective to keep for yourself a critical information ? Cheese reaction after his discovery was to believe that he could use the flavor as a way to confirm himself to all the other VTs. I don't see why Clarity would have thought in a different manner just before asking his question to marv. That's why I wanted to know what he exactly asked to marv. I wanted to know how he brought his discovery to the host. Anyway, he gets relevant information and doesn't imagine that another VT could have done the same. His logical reasoning shows that he is mafia here because in his story, he thinks first at the mafia perspective "I can see who is going to fakeclaim" rather than at the VT perspective "i need to share this information". | ||
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I would start to look for his scum mate or concede ^^ | ||
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By the way, today is not even over yet. I know that Clarity has a lot of pressure if he is town so we ll see what ahppen. Hopefully he flips roleblocker and I can jail the last scum. I have doubts on Alsn you and sylverfyre. | ||
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What do you think about the fact that Clarity never wanted to share the exact question he asked ? @ daoud why would I be scum if Claritg flips town ? | ||
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I would like Clarity to claim, regardless of his alignment @ Clarity you must realize that you are going to get lynched today. I feel sorry for you, regardless of your alignment... No hard feelings I hope. If you are town, I think that the best move for you is to claim your role and to give us the exact qiestion you have asked to marv... It's up to you.. | ||
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Rad story looks ok too, the breadcrumb is nice, but I'm going to have some doubts of course ^^ | ||
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I think it's really nice to have the story of everyone on how they reacted to Cheese claim. I like your story, I like daoud and obzy stories. I dont like Clarity reaction at all to the claim and I can see that sylverfyre has not given his thoughts yet... | ||
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seriously daoud if clarity flips town I dont think I'm going to be alive on D3. But I like your enthusiasm ^^ | ||
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This guy couldn't even read properly that I've jailed him for being mafia ^^ so I would say sylverfyre and Clarity scumteam ! Or Obzy is the best newbie I have ever seen | ||
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Also I need to drive... I cannot decide now, I'll come back to you. But I can tell you that I guess that Alsn is going to claim. @ sylver I officialy consider you as part of the scumteam. What do you have to say to defend yourself ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 08:57 Obzy wrote: Bleh. I had typed up a response to your post, Djo, but accidentally closed the tab I don't want to retype it; but basically, I don't really understand why you'd want me to rationally discuss with Clarity when you intend to lynch him. I'm gonna post what I wrote so far (It's a long filter analysis up until about where Djo starts attacking Clarity).+ Show Spoiler + Okay so I'm typing this in a text file so if the formatting is stupid I apologize in advance lol. (sorry for the lol, da0ud ^^) With regards to Clarity and why he is scum: I am going to spoiler this because I'm basically just going through his filter point by point and taking things that I can comment on. + Show Spoiler + I think the two things to take away from all this though: - Debears defended Cheese - Djodref tunneling Cheese All three of these people are town. Just as a side note. (If somebody would like my thoughts on Djo's JK claim, I can deliver.) Last three pages was djo, you and me. Still no word from da0ud and sylver. I think you are wrong in saying Obzy is useless. He might not have posted a lot but he makes good points or asks decent questions when he does, maybe you feel that way because he's biggest post is directed at you? This was in response to debears asking Clar if anything stood out as weird - I don't really think it's particularly important, but I thought it funny that he commented he didn't think I was useless at that time period. [With regards to Clar's list of reads] Considered Djo slightly scum, null on deb, null on Cheese. Slightly town on myself. So with all that said, I only have two slight scumreads on Alsn and Djo, I am no longer suspect of Alsn, at least not as much. Although he seems to have a hard on for debears and djo he's making decent points and trying to further conversation. Cool, so Alsn was down with debears and Djo. Mental note I guess. Cautions Rad about the perils of not having any reads - Ehn Comments at 16:22 Nov4 that he'll be making a case (or multiple) that day, to Djo. Specifically namedrops Hapa and comments he'll ignore the advice people follow, taking issue with its quality. (Apologizes later.) (In a response to Djo): On November 04 2012 17:20 Clarity_nl wrote: Top 3 choices in my eyes are Debears, Sylver and you. As for people who haven't answered my questions: Alsn, Cheese, Sylver. I'll have to look and see if he pushes Sylver at all. He mentions Cheese not looking scummy ~16ish hours before the deadline. Posts a defense from debears' post. On November 05 2012 02:54 Clarity_nl wrote: If you are town you can talk your way out of a lynch regardless. It's not like I would've posted my case an hour beforehand, right about now is when I would've posted it. I am currently working on a different case while also answering questions, so please bear with me. I will keep djo's case on hand in case I get lynched. I will post it before the deadline if it seems I'll die. Otherwise saving it for D2 Okay so apparently he had planned on posting a case on Djo today. That obviously will not occur unless da0ud claims JK or something, but w/e. I find the line "If you are town you can talk your way out of a lynch regardless" somewhat amusing; as a side note - I don't really know if he's talking about Djo or just in general. He posts a case on debears, that looks fairly legitimate if the knowledge that debears was VT didn't exist. (Votes DB at that time) - When debears asks him to post his case on Djo, he chooses not to, largely because he intends to on Day 2 or if he is going to be lynched. He (afterwards) mentions that he doesn't want to post a case on Djo if Djo won't be there to defend himself - I really don't like this. Why would you care if the person wasn't around to defend themselves if you think they're scum? And if you don't think they're scum, why would you post a case on them? I guess he can have points for Chivalry, but I think that he didn't want to post a case because he knew Djo was town. Clar has some commentary on how staying neutral isn't bad D1, I disagree with this, but I've already covered that in this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379514¤tpage=40#785 (It happens to be the one that I mention not feeling comfortable about voting CC - this is still taking place before debears picks up that CC is trying to claim.) Then the CC claim stuff - By this point, I had voted Clar largely due to process of elimination. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379514¤tpage=37#730 I liked Djo and debears' cases, I didn't like Clarity's case on debears, and between Clar and Sylv, I voted Clar. (I largely got my town read on db _because_ he hadn't gone and pointed out that I was sort of shitty and thus Mafia, despite having questioned me.) After CC's claim, Clarity mentioned that assumptions couldn't be made based on host behavior. This didn't make sense to me unless he was blue or scum, which he addressed later- I couldn't really find fault with that at the time, it seemed like he had just been thinking more than I had if he was VT yet asked about the VT flavor. He brings up a quote of mine telling him to convince me who _is_ scum, rather than trying to convince me that he isn't- he basically says that he's too busy defending himself to push his scumreads. On November 05 2012 09:28 Clarity_nl wrote: I think if Cheese flips red there's no way debears is scum.... 9 player mafia and scum busses eachother day 1? No way. Given that he'd posted a case on DB, this looks relevant; but if he knew Cheese had no chance of flipping red, it doesn't hurt the fact he's only actually made a case on debears (up until this point) at all. Gets angry at CC for not defending himself (I concur with this) but then votes him for his defense being WIFOM, over his scumread of debears? _And then says, On November 05 2012 09:42 Clarity_nl wrote: Wait, so you're voting debears to save yourself when you're VT? What the hell. Debears was his scumread and vote up until this point, and when CC changes his vote to be on Debears, he questions it. Why why why. There should be zero confusion if CC really was VT, given that he is basically agreeing with what Clarity had assumed up until this point; but once Clarity switches, he questions it. Clar mentions that the logical thing to do would be to jump on him to save himself, instead of Djo, then debears, then him. Djo is town, debears is town, ??? The comment looks like it's trying to indicate that "Clarity must be town, CC did not considering jumping onto him at first" to me. I will try to continue this later tonight, but I'm done for the moment. I'm going to catch up a few posts in the thread and then be afk for a couple of hours (until my work day ends, I get home, and I finish eating dinner) - I wanted to get my point-by-point thoughts to Alsn before he had to o to sleep. | ||
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Did you take the time to read the spoiler in Obzy post that I have just quoted ?? There is some serious scumhunting inside ! If you still doubt that Clarity is scum after this then you have VT confirmation bias @ Obzy I did not take the time to read it in detail first but this is a very very nice analysis. Congrats ! I hope that you'll keep on playing this game I have never been so sure of the scum team Clarity and Sylverfyre They are both suspicious of each other but never took any action against each other. Clarity express his volonty to write a case against sylverfyre but has almost no interactions with him and never posted his case against him. Clarity latest target was Obzy (and Obzy has fired back, OMG) but not sylver... Sylverfyre should have naturally voted Clarity D2 but it appears that he was more looking for an opportunity to lynch someone else. Please note how sylverfyre was shouting at my blue hunting with Clarity and Rad. I'm just waiting for Alsn claim to be sure that this game is over | ||
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1. Could you suffer 3 more questions before I use my trump card against you ? 2. What do you think of Alsn post that Rad have brought up lately ? 3. Do you have any breadcrumb or clue to support your cop claim ? 4. Did you find the post where you have lied ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 17:20 da0ud wrote: Question : can the JK put himself in jail ? No, I have not this possibility, I have already asked marv ^^ | ||
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Thank you ! Right now, I know for sure that you are 100% scum. Nice fakeclaim by the way Unfortunately, I cannot use my trump card against you right now ;( but I'm going to explain to you why I knew you were lying about being blue when this game ends. But it's mainly based on the fact that it is less likely for a blue to ask your question to marv than for a VT. If all the VT here had doubts about you going ask the question to the host, I know that he is lying when he says he did this as a blue. | ||
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The thing that would have happened is that you got no result for your investigation I'm curious to see what Alsn is going to say when he comes back... | ||
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On November 07 2012 18:58 da0ud wrote: Why can't you say why I knew he was lying about being blue now ? Please don't retain information. I cannot tell you why, I've already asked the host if I had the right to do this in case of a Clarity claim. He told me that it was not allowed to leak this info so you have to trust me on this one... I'm expecting Alsn to argue in my favor but we'll see. If you have some doubts, please check again the first reason I gave you for him not being a blue. | ||
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On November 07 2012 12:05 Djodref wrote: I can at least give you a first reason why I'm sure Clarity is not blue. There is a second reason that I'm going to keep for myself at the moment. Please note how Clarity said, "marv told me" ! I knew this rule regarding the blue flavor as well but I knew it from the beginning. Marv didn't tell me anything about it, it's already in my role PM. Even if its a poor wording choice from Clarity, a blue Clarity would have understood that we share the same info and would have directly believed my claim at 100%. You can see that he is doubting it later in the thread. I hope this is enough to convince you that Clarity is not blue. So you can realize that he is either scum or very bad and stubborn VT. Here you go again | ||
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On November 07 2012 19:06 da0ud wrote: Well if he was Cop and he cannot see if the person he wants to investigate is green or red, I think it is safe to assume he has been roleblocked.... I know but it's not what he said. Add this to the fact that he has no breadcrumb and was only hinting at the fact that he was a blue after being brought on everyone radar. Remember how Dandel claim was convenient last game. This fakeclaim is as convenient as Dandel fakeclaim last game. Anyway, at the exception of Alsn who has not seen the latest developpements yet, do you see anyone more scummy than Clarity and Sylver ? I don't. | ||
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On November 07 2012 19:11 Clarity_nl wrote: Couldn't help myself from checkin in. Djo, you are talking about the fact that your pm, and my pm, state that you cannot post the flavor of your role, just your role. The reason I said "marv told me" was because that was the only way to remain ambiguous about my role. No, even if you said "I won't share the flavor" doesn't make you 100% confirmed. You claim to have this magical proof that my claim is false, and I claim anyway. Now you are saying you can't tell us until the game ends? I've already explained my reasoning for pming marv despite knowing the VT flavor. It's that I wanted to know if scum knew flavor, and more importantly, I wanted to know if VT knew that the others knew flavor. If I investigate you, and I get nothing back, the conclusion is I got roleblocked. Do not argue semantics with me. No this is something else. I know for 100% that your claim is fake for another reason that I cannot give. I BEG EVERYONE WHO HAS FAITH IN ME AND IN MY CLAIM TO FOLLOW MY VOTE ON CLARITY. I PROMISE YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR THE ENDGAME WHICH IS COMING SOON. HOPEFULLY, ALSN IS GOING TO CLAIM BLUE AND SUPPORT MY STANCE. DANDEL ION FAKECLAIM 2012 ! NEVER FORGET ! DO NOT LET THE MAFIA FOOL YOU TWICE ! | ||
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On November 07 2012 19:14 Clarity_nl wrote: "It is mainly based on the fact that it is LESS LIKELY, that's why I'm 100% convinced." I should have said that it was not likely at all ^^ Do not argue on semantics please Could you write us the best case you can do on sylver and help us win this game ? | ||
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Clarity is 100% confirmed scum If you believe in me, please believe in this ! | ||
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[b]@ Clarity[b] No hard feelings bro, this is just a game | ||
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As far as Im concerned, you have just claimed scum with your fakeclaim. Now its reduced to a battle of votes and influence. Rad, Obzy, daoud I know that you are regular fappers. Please consider that there is no one more scummy than Clarity and sylv among us and vote him for the sake of the free porn industry. Alsn I expect you to counter claim medic. Please back me up on this one sylver please tell your partner Clarity the mafia roleblocker that it is time to concede | ||
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I'm pretty sure that daoud and Obzy are going to stay on my side. Can I count on you guys ? I need 100% blindless support. I know that sylv is your partner Rad might believe your claim but he was expecting a VT Clarity So it's down to Alsn ^^ Alsn <3 | ||
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On November 07 2012 19:58 Clarity_nl wrote: There are no hard feelings I promise, it's a game, but I don't understand how you basically just claimed you have no good case, yet are 100% certain. I'm a real blue, so I have an extra information that I unfortunately cannot disclose, and this extra information gives me you as a liar. That's why I wanted you to claim so much ^^ I've been warning everybody from a fake blueclaim from you since a long time now so they'll notice that I'm consistent on this one and I trust them into sheeping on me Can you guess what is this extra information ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 12:58 Rad wrote: @djo My trust in him is based on how similarly we seem to be thinking. You'd have to be a VT in this game to understand, I think. Surely anyone who is a VT this game had cheese's same thoughts rush through their mind when they noticed the lack of flavor text. We'd be like this little secret society, you see, that only we'd know about. Perhaps if we were just more experienced at the game we'd know this would be too OP, but we're newbies, and the idea was delicious. Cheese had the thought and ran with it, explained it to debears, debears *high fived* cheese over it, and although I had that same thought at one point in the game, I PM'd the host as soon as cheese dropped the claim the first time. By the time they were high-fiving, I had already gotten back a response, and had been brewing over why a town would be claiming right now. Was he just a VT being wreckless, or a scum trying to get people to claim? Why claim at that point when there's no reason to? Wtf? There's absolutely no reason to claim right then. Is a scum cheese trying to pull some crazy shit? That's what first went through my mind, but i realized that no, there's no fucking way a scum would do this right now, trading scum life for possible (not even guaranteed) information is a terrible trade. I can see how clarity wouldn't have necessarily come to this conclusion though, so he kept his vote on cheese. You need to look at clarity's reactions to cheese during that incident. They don't push blame, they're looking for all the appropriate answers, and everything he did (except not switching to debears) mirrored my own thoughts during the the scenario. Does that mean he's necessarily VT? Nah, but I was right about cheese and debears, and I think I'm right about clarity. Djo, if he flips red, I fully expect to be lynched. But, do you think that's a good scum move to put myself out there so much? Do you think it's a good scum move to constantly defend him against your attacks if we're a scum team? @ Rad Thank you very much for this post. I don't think you could have made a post more "townie-like" than this one. Anyway, you have shown some sympathy towards Clarity and Cheese because you could see yourself in their shoes. Do you understand now that my main and strongest point against Clarity is that he did not show any sympathy at all towards Cheese, with the same style of play and the same scumread ? By the way, I think that you gave the idea of a PM to the host to the mafia team without realizing it ^^ | ||
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Also notice how Clarity and Sylverfyre have stopped to play this game. You were making fun of me last game when I have asked Roco bluntly if he was mafia or not. Guess what, I did the same move against sylver and the result is -> no denial You should also be able to see this in Clarity behavior. I've been tunneling hard for 50 hours and there are no insults, no denial, not so many rebutals. Only defense and defense and desperate defense... This is also indicative of mafia play ^^ I'm sorry Clarity by the way. I was litteraly raging at seeing you alive | ||
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On November 07 2012 14:40 sylverfyre wrote: No surprises here. Nothing he's said has absolved him. And I have no reason to doubt Djo's alignment (though I still reserve the right to doubt his strategy calls - as risky as it was to claim, it worked. Well. ##Vote Clarity Sorry I haven't been very active today. It's kinda my birthday and I had a really long day (I'm sure a few of you noticed the icon on me while server was on November 6) da0ud, are you saying I'm preferred based on WIFOM that rad is more associated with clarity, therefore it ISN'T Rad? I attacked clarity pretty much right after the lynch Day 1. You can detect a scum bussing his partner here because sylverfyre shows absolutely no doubt about Clarity alignment. But sylver play was very scummy anyway. Active lurking, low investment in the game, poor scumhunting. Almost too scummy to be scum... Clarity should have bussed him D1 imho... | ||
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You have played well. I've found you because you were too neutral and because you have reacted aggressivly to my advice on your list. Cheese claim was unfortunate for everybody and you should have not commented at that time. And you were too much of a punching ball under my pressure. Townies are usually indignated under pressure. If you had claimed VT when Rad was hard defending you (just before or.just after my claim), I think I would have entered a period of doubts. | ||
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sorry Alsn sorry debears Alsn roleclaim is legit btw the way, we share the extra info in common but I have failed to see it N1 | ||
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I lol'd Sorry I was phone posting and very excited ^^ | ||
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On November 07 2012 23:15 sylverfyre wrote: You also showed absolutely no doubt about his alignment. You want to know what I found damning? @ Sylver Are you accusing me to be scum ? I've never said I was 100% sure of myself before his claim. Maybe I've said 95%... As I've said, we have extra info (Alsn and me) to know for sure that blue Clarity was impossible. Anyway, argue all the way you want, you are my next "tunnel to the death" target and you are spending your night in jail. | ||
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On November 07 2012 23:19 sylverfyre wrote: I'll also point out you aren't flaming anyone else for being sure about Clarity. Why me? I was posting about him early, but one of the last ones to vote because I wasn't sure and your arguments don't make sense to me. Why you ? You are the scummiest player alive to begin with Alsn is 100% confirmed blue in my eyes. I would like everybody to accept this as a fact... Obzy and daoud are very likely to be town considering the way they reacted to Cheese claim, even if it was after the fact. I really like how they directly went for Clarity and his fake "PM to marv". As far as I know, only you and Rad believed in this PM. I know daoud town meta and he shows his usual paranoia. Daoud has accused me of bussing my partner and wants to go after me if Clarity flips green. I don't think any mafia player would imagine such bullshit Obzy has made a very good case against Clarity while Clarity case against Obzy was totally half-assed. The way Clarity attacked Obzy hints very strongly at a town Obzy. Not to mention the incredible emotional post he gave us. Rad hard-defense of Clarity was motivated because of his sympathy for Clarity which is a townie feeling. For example, your play shows apathy. So my list of players is like, from the most townie to most scummy: Alsn Obzy Daoud Rad Sylverfyre I hope for you that you are the roleblocker | ||
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On November 08 2012 00:39 sylverfyre wrote: No I'm not accusing you to be scum. I'm saying you have massive confirmation bias about me. Clarity was saying the same thing... | ||
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On November 07 2012 23:54 Alsn wrote: I gotta leave for those two hours I was talking about pretty soon. But I'd like to point out that there's a pretty easy way to proceed once Clarity flips red. Djod blocks someone he thinks is the last scum(and tells us, last minute I think is best, since he could theoretically be blocking a town who got attacked, although I'd say the chances of that are slim to none), if Djod or someone else dies, whoever Djod blocked is guaranteed to be town. If no one dies, we have less information, but we have a prime lynch candidate because even if the last scum "faked" not killing anyone, we get another chance at having Djod block is top scum read the next night, and so on, until we find the real scum. @ Alsn No, a mafia roleblocker would block and kill me. I've already asked marv about it... So if sylverfyre is mafia RB, he wouldn't be confirmed even if I die while saying he is in jail I think it's possible for us to have 2 mafia RB by the way. Let's not discard any possibility. | ||
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On November 08 2012 00:46 sylverfyre wrote: Also Djo, if you're secretly a scum roleblocker and lucked out that there is no jailkeeper and only 1 power role, I WILL hate you for this play. @ Sylverfyre Don't make me laugh, I'm going to achieve 20 pages filter when you have 5 and I would be the scum. I told you that Alsn and me share the same secret "extra information" that you were asking me for. We are both 100% confirmed to each other. The fact that Clarity could not write a proper case against Obzy is a very strong proof that Obzy is town. Mafia writes good cases when they bus, but it's way more difficult for them when they have to frame. On top of that, Obzy shows a very likely behavior for a first time player as VT. I would also say that he deserves his victory if his emotional post was fake. @ OnbzyOnce again, congrats for your analysis on Clarity According to me, the remaining scum is among Rad, daoud and you. You look the worst among these 3 so you spend your night in my jail. That is if you are not a mafia roleblocker... | ||
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On November 08 2012 00:44 sylverfyre wrote: I believe Clarity's scum for my own reasons. Your reasons suck. Forcing out a claim -> counterclaim sucked, though it 100% confirms that Clarity is scum. Why should we believe you about any of your other scum reads? What if we rely on Alsn at night, but the person he investigates is framed because you're wrong about me? You've completely turned the game into power roles vs. power roles, us vanilla townies have no power right now. We have to follow our blues now. @ sylverfyre Yeah, sure. Thank you for your support. I don't know if we would have been able to lynch Clarity today without you. Truth being told, I don't feel like I've committed enough for this lynch. I'll give you the town credit that you deserve when Clarity flips red. | ||
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DISCLAIMER - A Mafia RoleBlocker would kill me even if I target him Conclusion => I cannot confirm anyone with my power | ||
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I would worry about this kind of shit after the flip | ||
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Compare the quality of the claims from Alsn and me and the claim from Clarity. Please note that Clarity is AWOL. Don't be stupid, don't waste your time. By the way, you are very close to find the key for the "extra information" which Alsn and me are sharing. Unfortunately, we cannot really disclose it ^^ Anyway, Alsn and me are confirming each other, so we must be the scumteam which you are looking for if Clarity flips blue. | ||
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Going to wake up with red blood spilling on the floor GG Clarity, sorry for the imb4 counter-claim but the cases should have been enough I think... Long life to free porn ! | ||
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Association case incoming after the lynch ^^ | ||
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On November 08 2012 02:08 sylverfyre wrote: A TWENTY PAGE FILTER IS RIDICULOUS. Does anyone in the Acme mafia game have a 20 page filter? I looked at a bunch of them. Most active players have around 5 pages. The most active players have 8 and 9 page filters. It's night 2 over there. BTW, they also are a 13 player game and have 20 less pages than we do. You post like a madman. I think you're right about Clarity, but I also think you're crazy and full of confirmation bias. @ Sylverfyre Are you angry because the scumteam got nailed during D1 ? Y u no concede ? | ||
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I have a very good feeling when I see Obzy and daoud acknoledge each other. My town read on them is reinforced. Nice job guys ! Good grasp of the situation Would you also conclude that the remaining scum is sylver or Rad ? | ||
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It's not possible because we don't know for sure what role could be the last scum. If it is a roleblocker, I guess I'm going to be blocked while the NK is going to be send to me or another player (most likely Alsn). I think the best way for us is to play in the open and announcepublicly our targets. | ||
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You can be sure that I am going to target sylverfyre | ||
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On November 07 2012 12:08 Rad wrote: @djo If clarity claims blue, I'd have to reconsider my current read on him. There was a point that I thought he might be blue, very briefly during the cheese incident, but I'm pretty convinced he's VT or scum now (obviously leaning hard towards VT). <snip> @ Rad Y u no reconsidered ? I understand that you are a stubborn guy but there should have been a limit to the confidence you had in the town read you were having on Clarity. Why did you not comment the post I've indicated you again which were consisting in the best proofs against Clarity ? | ||
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On November 07 2012 12:58 Rad wrote: @djo My trust in him is based on how similarly we seem to be thinking. You'd have to be a VT in this game to understand, I think. Surely anyone who is a VT this game had cheese's same thoughts rush through their mind when they noticed the lack of flavor text. We'd be like this little secret society, you see, that only we'd know about. Perhaps if we were just more experienced at the game we'd know this would be too OP, but we're newbies, and the idea was delicious. Cheese had the thought and ran with it, explained it to debears, debears *high fived* cheese over it, and although I had that same thought at one point in the game, I PM'd the host as soon as cheese dropped the claim the first time. By the time they were high-fiving, I had already gotten back a response, and had been brewing over why a town would be claiming right now. Was he just a VT being wreckless, or a scum trying to get people to claim? Why claim at that point when there's no reason to? Wtf? There's absolutely no reason to claim right then. Is a scum cheese trying to pull some crazy shit? That's what first went through my mind, but i realized that no, there's no fucking way a scum would do this right now, trading scum life for possible (not even guaranteed) information is a terrible trade. I can see how clarity wouldn't have necessarily come to this conclusion though, so he kept his vote on cheese. You need to look at clarity's reactions to cheese during that incident. They don't push blame, they're looking for all the appropriate answers, and everything he did (except not switching to debears) mirrored my own thoughts during the the scenario. Does that mean he's necessarily VT? Nah, but I was right about cheese and debears, and I think I'm right about clarity. Djo, if he flips red, I fully expect to be lynched. But, do you think that's a good scum move to put myself out there so much? Do you think it's a good scum move to constantly defend him against your attacks if we're a scum team? @ sylvefyre Could you also elaborate on what was going on your mind during the Cheese incident ? I would like you to explain to us what was going on in your head when you saw the claim, in a similar fashion Of course, I'm assuming that you are VT here, I'll give you some slack ^^ | ||
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On November 05 2012 08:21 Rad wrote: Please excuse my silence. I'm considering Mr. Cheesecake atm. Why did you say this ? I have my idea but I would like you to tell it first | ||
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On November 08 2012 11:23 Obzy wrote: + Show Spoiler + Base assumptions: 5 town, 1 scum Djo and Alsn are confirmed[or as good as confirmed] JK and cop each person knows that they are VT or scum, I know I'm VT so I will use myself as the example. Scum can just ignore this post xD 3 confirmed town (I am confirmed to myself) vs 1 scum - Other town will be T1 and T2. ...actually this is way too long lol there's a lot of possibilities and lots of if's it basically comes down to, I don't think there is an optimal strategy. I'll post some thoughts: Djo JKs Sylv, Alsn checks Sylv, comes back scum and DJo dies because Sylv was scum RB. He's not confirmed though - if Rad was framer and framed Sylv and killed Djo, the checks mean nothing. Same goes if the opposite. So stacking on a potential frame target isn't really worth it, it doesn't confirm anything. If Djo JKs the framer, he can't frame or kill anybody, so Alsn's check (if it is on a different target) will come back town. If it comes back scum, it either means scum held KP to get a mischeck, or he landed the check properly - in this case, I think that we can all vote for a No-Lynch and repeat the process until Alsn gets town checks and slowly confirms every member (this is under the assumption that KP is being held). In short, if scum holds KP, we should not vote and we will win without issue. Obviously, if somebody votes and stays on a target, that person is scum, and we lynch them one day afterwards to ascertain that they were not just a townie playing poorly. (We will win even if a mislynch occurs. KP being held just gives us more checks, and it's not possible for a town-cop-check return to mean scum hiding anymore - if it shows town, then they ARE town.) So scum holding KP doesn't work, the game could just be stalled out forever >.> Under that assumption, if there is no kill, then the JK target is the scum. If Alsn gets no check back and no kill occurs, it means that the JK target was not scum and was holding KP. So - if JK target roleblocks Djo, he can kill either Alsn or Djo without repercussions - really, there's nothing we can do about this. If Djo targets the wrong person, he can roleblock Alsn and kill anybody without repercussions as well. Blah blah blah ^^ This is incredibly long and the possibilities are vast. My summary - I think we should stick to our reads and not worry about optimal blue-usage strategy, but if there is no kill, we can discuss it then. If there is no kill and Alsn is roleblocked, it means JK was targetting the wrong person (I think. If JK jails Roleblocker, can the scum RB still RB?) and scum held KP. If there is no kill and Alsn can get a town check, we can repeat this indefinitely - so scum should just give up >.> The game would take forever but inevitably end in our victory and would be a tremendous pain so it'd be nice if under those circumstances scum just conceded defeat. There are too many possibilities to actually pick out an optimal scenario. I am in favor of (currently) lynching Sylv, then Rad. If scum is da0ud under those circumstances, we lose. If not, we win. If Alsn manages to get a town check on one of those three (or myself I guess, approaching it from a different angle,) then we will win for certain. As a result I expect Alsn to die tonight, unless scum is framer and Djo roleblocks him properly. + Show Spoiler + Too many possibilities, Blues should just do what they think is best and state what they did before the night ends, but I intend to vote Sylv > Rad lol. if scum is da0ud, hopefully Alsn is able to confirm one of the three as town, but if a scum result is returned, it is not indicative of anything, due to how many possibilities there are lol. o_O Suuuuuper complicated not knowing if we have a RB or a framer so they must, as a result, be both. I don't think there's an enormous amount that we can discuss about it haha :X Just trust our blues. It would be best to continue in the way we have been IMO :0 If anybody has a magical solution to how blues should be best optimized, then we should, of course, do it but I don't see one.(sheesh this post is super long and kinda pointless in the end) I'm also expecting Alsn to die tonight, he is the most dangerous guy for the remaining mafia right now. If it doesn't die, the probability that I have successfully jailed a framer or a goon is high but there is also a slight possibility for the mafia to have not sent the NK on purpose. I'm going to target sylver and Alsn should keep his target for himself. Let's discuss tomorrow about the conclusions we can make from a no-death night if nobody dies if nobody dies. We can think about it but not waste too much time on it. In my opinion, the fact that the scum has not given up yet means that he is roleblocker, but I might be wrong In the meantime, we should go back to good old scumhunting. I have a very good case against sylver in my mind so I'm going to prepare it and post it when I can. I'm also going to post why I think daoud and Obzy are town. I don't want to look into Rad so I hope that someone else is going to take care of that for me. | ||
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On November 08 2012 11:50 Rad wrote: I did reconsider. I had to throw out all my thoughts about him being VT, but like I said, there was a moment during the cheese chaos that I thought he might be blue. Also, scum clarity NOT at least attempting to ride on my VT story didn't make sense to me. The cop claim was like... what, why would he do that? Is he really cop? So, I held a little hope that he would flip blue and was spending my time thinking about who was the scum if he did (was thinking you and obzy). @ Rad And why would you want to believe in his claim ? The counter claim from Alsn, the amount of evidence against Clarity and the fact that he has went AWOL like all caught mafia players do should have been enough to kill any hope that you could foster for a town Clarity. Why did you choose to waste your time on an improbable scenario ? | ||
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@ sylvefyre What did you mean by "pseudo-claim" when talking about Clarity post in response of Cheese claim ? | ||
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On November 08 2012 12:32 Rad wrote: Because I thought he was town? And you pissed me off yesterday. I liked the story of "clarity turns out blue, djo scum, rad wins" better than "clarity turns out scum, djo thinks his confirmation biased arguments were right after all, rad is sad "Also, clarity was clearly going to be lynched. Not much else to talk about there. May as well entertain some other interesting scenarios, some what-ifs, cause that's fun to me and I can get people's thoughts in the meantime (maybe read into them somehow). It's cool getting yelled at for doing that. <3 Fun game, I guess. @ Rad You don't know how much pissed off I was at you yesterday. I was literally raging when you accused me of blue hunting. My claim was totally emotional, I did it because I wanted you and sylvefyre to STFU about this nonsense. My analysis of Clarity behavior in his interactions with me and with Cheese was clearly showing good signs of mafia. I still don't understand how you could bashed these arguments. Especially the one where I show you that Clarity avoided discussion with me I think you were the one suffering from confirmation bias, not me | ||
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On November 08 2012 13:07 sylverfyre wrote: When I read this post from clarity, I took it to mean that he was trying to establish himself as town-aligned, knowing that Cheesecake didn't know at the time that everyone had the VT PM. Taking advantage of CC's incomplete information I found really scummy, and was my first big tell towards finding Clarity scum. Ok, thanks. I'm still waiting for your complete and detailed story concerning your train of thoughts when you have discovered the Cheese incident for the first time. Would you be able to be as precise as Rad ? I would greatly appreciate it ^^ | ||
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On November 08 2012 13:12 sylverfyre wrote: Rad, don't you see that the same is true of the accusations Djo is making at me? I think we're looking in the complete wrong direction. @ sylverfyre You should better wait for the association case I'm going to make to prove that you are his partner. My case against you is not even published yet that you are discrediting it already ? Why are you trying to buddy Rad ? Why do you think debears was killed ? Who is the last scum in your opinion ? | ||
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On November 08 2012 13:32 Rad wrote: @Obzy Because I'd be happier with djo being wrong and me being right If clarity flipped blue, you and djo are scum (in my head). That sounds more fun, and still gets town the win, cause I would have tunneled the shit out of both of you. Do you realize you got town confirmation with everyone just because of your claim that you didn't really want to play anymore? Actually da0ud's reaction to that made me really suspicious of him. I get shit on like I'm potential scum even though my story and actions line up perfectly throughout the entire game? Think I'm a scum mastermind after 1 game (in which I was town)? I don't know what to think about sylver atm. I also think it probably doesn't matter because he'll be lynched no matter what. And if it's not him, it's me, so why bother thinking about him (you guys are going to take anything I find as potential scum pushing your opinions, and I think everyone here already knows I'm not great at reads, so it's not like I'm going to find anything reading sylver's filters all day). I'm probably going to think more about who's scum if he's not cause that's way more interesting to me. That sort of thing might save us the game if he flips town, cause then it's all eyes on me and I'll have to convince myself out of it to get town the win. If you lynch me, better make a backup plan, cause I'm flipping mfing VT. Scum should NK me or sylver (if sylver's not scum) to make this shit super interesting and at least end on a fun note ^^ @ Rad You sure understand nothing about scum mentality when it's time to choose a target for the NK Scum is going to lose the game if they keep confirmed blue players (Alsn and me) alive...Let's make something interesting to help you improve, okay ? I've found a lot of interesting things in Clarity's filter and his interactions with the other players. So why don't you go over Clarity's filter once again while keeping in my mind that
Please have a deep look on how Clarity interacts with Obzy, daoud and sylverfyre and post an analysis of his filter. I would not mind some comments on Clarity interactions with you What do you think of it ? It's quite fun to do now that we have more information ^^ | ||
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On November 08 2012 13:53 Obzy wrote: I guess that makes sense. I pointed out how if clarity flipped blue, it doesn't say anything about Djo, but it would make me look bad; that's certainly true. Do I realize I'm confirmed town? Of course o_O I've felt a lot better since making my post; I don't have to worry myself half to death, and we hit scum properly today so I'm happy. My only worry is that if we mislynch twice in a row (Like - if da0ud is scum, and we go Sylv-->you, hypothetically) that it'd be bad obviously, but strategy with blues can't resolve this (aka for the next 24 hours during this night period), and there's no point in worrying if it's between you/da0ud[unlikely imo] until the unlikely (IMO~) scenario that Sylv flips town. I liked da0ud's reaction to the events that had occurred. I think that the slight language difficulty put me at ease a bit, like - how could he be lying while still typing that way? His post literally brought a smile to my face as I was reading it. It felt too genuine, and that's all my own defense really was - honesty and being genuine. I don't want you to be scum, and I think Sylv is, but there are only six people left. I can't blame you for wanting the game to turn out a different way while still having a town victory, but I am going to be content with merely having a town victory (period). I suppose I shouldn't be thinking about contingency plans for two days ahead, I should just think about tomorrow. I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, and apologize. @ Obzy As I've said to Rad, I think that going through Clarity's filter once again now that we know for sure that he was scum is a pretty good exercise. And that can bring good and relevant information for tonight and tomorrow. It's up to you but I would like to see your post-mortem analysis of his filter. | ||
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<snip> btw I made that suggestion to scum not because I think they'd take it, but because I think that would make this super interesting. Don't you think? Imagine "town sylver dies from NK." All eyes point to me don't they? Or is it scum trying to WIFOM you into lynching me? Or "town rad dies from NK." Same story. How do you read that? <snip> @ Rad It's ok, it was totally up to you... I'll have to write down my association case myself then ^^ You should maybe ask sylverfyre about his games in IRC after game. I imagine that they are more quick and more based on chatting than our game but I don't know for sure. To answer to your question about the NK, if you want to see the game from a mafia point of view, you have to consider how many mislynches have to happen for the last mafia player to win. We are now in a 5vs1 situation. Let's assume that I cannot prevent any night kill. Tomorrow is 4vs1 and if a mislynch happens followed by a night kill then it's down to a 2vs1 situation. Then another mislynch seals the mafia victory ! The last mafia player, whoever he is, is 2 mislynch away from victory. Right now, it is clear that sylverfyre and you have the biggest potential for a mislynch (I'm saying this because one of you is town for sure, I don't believe a single instant that you are both town) so mafia is never going to get rid of you. The last mafia player wants you in the game the longest time possible (if you are town) so when sylverfyre is posting this+ Show Spoiler + On November 07 2012 23:31 sylverfyre wrote: <snip> As for who I think is scummy? I'm thinking it's Obzy or da0ud. Rad still seems genuine to me, Alsn counterclaimed the way he was forced to. You also have to consider that having confirmed players around reduces greatly the possibility of a mislynch to happen. Having confirmed town players is great for the general town atmosphere because scum cannot create confusion by spreading doubts about them and their reads and cases. Having a confirmed cop like Alsn is better for town because he can confirm more town players. The longer Alsn is alive, the worst the situation becomes for scum to get the mislynches he need. I hope that I'm not helping the scum to realize this but I guess he already knows it perfectly. Alsn is the #1 target because he is our most reliable tool to prevent the town from mislynching. A NK on you or sylverfyre would reduce the possibility of a mislynch to happen. I know that it's less fun but this is going to happen. | ||
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On November 08 2012 15:06 Rad wrote: @djo Yep, I understand and agree with everything you said about who will get NK'd. Just thought it would be cool for the scenario I talked about I don't understand how that is a sylver scum slip but I believe you're town and you were right about clarity when I was wrong so I'll just have to believe you. @ Rad It's a scumtell, not a scumslip Right now, you are looking very bad because of your hard-defense of Clarity. Even if you have to best explanations in the world for it, and I personally find your explanations and your motivations believable and consistent (the breadcrumb and the PMs to marv give your story much credit), it's going to be difficult for anyone to believe that you are really town and you have to get lynched for defending Clarity like this, sooner or later. So, if you are town, you are the perfect player to keep until lylo (the 2vs1 situation in our case). I don't see why sylverfyre would take you as more genuine than Obzy so I guess that he wants you around, hence buddying you and so on... I don't know if I have explained it well or not... | ||
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On November 08 2012 14:35 sylverfyre wrote: You've been attacking me for the entire length of this game. Why do I need to wait for you to post anything to criticize the things you've been saying all game? @ sylverfyre Why are you not posting anything against Obzy or daoud ? Are you repeating the same mistake Clariry did, trying to argue with me all day long ? Bring the case of your life against who you think you find scum and maybe then (only maybe) I'm going to change my mind about you. I strongly believe that you are the last scum and I'm preparing something against you. I've noticed that you don't answer all my questions for you but, if you prefer to spend your time attacking rather than defending, I might be able to let you off the hook for this one. But you should not waste your time with this kind of comment. | ||
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On November 08 2012 15:48 Rad wrote: I gotcha djo. Do you think it's possible for me to be a good enough scum to plan out all the VT stuff so perfectly on the spot when cheese claimed, plant a meaningless (except to VTs that were unaware of the other PMs) breadcrumb before any of that happened, and then react exactly how you'd expect a VT to react? This is my second game of mafia, do you think that's a realistic scum plan (hey scum partner clarity even though we realize everyone else knows the VT flavor text because we're scum and marv PM'd it to us, I'm going to plant it as a breadcrumb just in case some stupid VT doesn't realize it and makes a big deal out of it, but you shouldn't do that, instead you should probably claim blue or something at some point since it would make us look super suspicious otherwise, unlike my plan of defending you for the entire game against arguments that don't make sense vs a newbie VT)? Or maybe you're unsure if this is really my second game? Look at me last game, do you think I was looking so far into the future for a scum game one day that I just played like a newbie so I could eventually lay down the perfect master scum plan (in another newbie game!)? I mean seriously, I don't get how my story doesn't confirm me lol, unless you think I'm just THAT GOOD. I don't get how obzy's pity case is more confirming than my entire game VT case. Show me anyone else in this game that has their entire game that figured out and clearly able to explain it, even with the WTF moment that cheese brought into the game where I acted perfectly VT. Am I master scum or am I just a super honest newbie VT that can explain his entire story with ease because it's real? If sylver flips town (yeah, I'm speculating, let's do it), do you really think it's me over obzy? Or even da0ud? Yeah, I said he's got balls of steel from the debears move, but that could have been scummy balls of steel. I have no idea at this point cause I suck at figuring that out. @ Rad I wish your reads were as good as your defense To be honest, I don't think that you are scum, everything in Clarity's filter indicates to a partnership with sylverfyre. Lynch this bastard and it's going to be GG. Thanks for your post though... | ||
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On November 08 2012 15:55 da0ud wrote: Just catching up now. Got sh!t 2/3 of day at work where I did not make money i was truly hope to get I know how good and invested Djo is in this game. He want to shine as the mastermind of it. He has barely slept over the past few days. I feel something fishy. Would there be any chance that Djo could have fakeclaimed as mafia RB in order to bully/buss his partner Clarity ? What I truly believe at the moment is : Obzy, me are VT Alsn is Cop Sylver looks really bad and if my assumption goes nowhere I will go after him on D3. Rad, there could still be a chance he would be scum but unlikely. Djo, mafia RB : unlikely as well - BUT I KNOW HE IS CAPABLE OF IT ! @ daoud Once again, your level of paranoia is a good indication for me that you are indeed town. I understand your doubts given our previous history but I think that the fact that Alsn has confirmed my claim should allow you to believe me as well. I'm a little disappointed that Alsn did not say anything on he fact that we share some extra-information together that should make us 100% confirmed to each other. I hope to have some comment on this before he dies... Even if I chose to bus my partner, please note that I have "discovered" Clarity before anyone else. He was pretty much under everyone's radar before my very first case against him. There is no need to bus your partner like this when no one is paying attention. | ||
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On November 08 2012 16:21 da0ud wrote: I think it is possible. Usual games are 13 players 10v3 so 23% of scum people On this one 7v2 hence only 22% of scum, which is a slight hedge to town. Only one power role for mafia. I would imagine that 2 power roles for town would get the game even more imbalanced. On top of that, Djodref is already diverting attention on Alsn saying he is the most usefull town right now. I don't disagree, but if I were mafia I would not let Djo alive because he is the sharpest player right now. He can write many cases, etc. If he is still alive tomorrow, I think there is something fishy. @ daoud Should we start this conversation again when we are both in lylo together ? Can I recommend you to go through Clarity's filter and make an analysis of his interactions with the other players ? | ||
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On November 08 2012 16:13 Obzy wrote: + Show Spoiler + da0ud - it's POSSIBLE, but incredibly unlikely. I think that only having a single blue would be somewhat imbalanced in favor of mafia, I also think it wouldn't be very suitable for a newbie game as having no roles doesn't really help town learn much. Just by the numbers, I think we have two blues, and Djo is one of them. I recommend asking our gracious coaches about it if you have doubts (specifically: "How can/Why should I believe Djo's claim?" The coaches are excellent.), I think that asking the rest of us to look at and doubt Djo is truly not worth your time, though. Scum is 100% Sylv or Rad. Rad - I respect your play. I know I'm town. Taking this into account, I wouldn't put it past you to play so excellently as to be able to speak your above piece in a convincing manner ^^ Although I'm a bit too lazy to do this myself if prompted; if you feel like you are going to be lynched and your lynch would cause town to lose, your only real choice is to convince Me that da0ud is the last scum. Here's why: Presumably, scum is going to kill a blue tonight. Tomorrow, Sylv will be lynched. Assuming Sylv is not scum, the remaining blue will die the next night. This will leave me, you, and da0ud. I'm not scum, so if you're trying to make a case on me at that point and you are town, we lose. da0ud is going to vote you. I am going to vote you. The only thing that would change this situation is if da0ud was the scum, and you pull together a nail-biting case that absolutely and completely convinces me. I don't expect you to do it, because I think da0ud is 100% town. However, if you are the last scum, that's your only choice. (Now that I've brought it up, it really isn't a choice ^_^ We'll see it coming.) + Show Spoiler + If you don't think da0ud is scum, and you yourself are not scum, then Sylv is scum. The end. There really is no reason thinking further unless you want to entertain the possibility that I am lying, or that our blues are lying - these may be fun mental exercises, but they will not lead to a plausible end-game scenario worth thinking about. @ Obzy Could I ask you why you are so confident on your read on daoud ? | ||
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Good luck to find a reasonable target for a mislynch now I hope everyone is able to see how apathetic your play is when everybody else is sympathetic ^^ @ daoud I don't even need to write my case. All townies have shown good sign of honesty and sincerity, even if there is some lack of scumhunt. Given the flavor, I think it is ok for us to keep jerking off like this | ||
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I think the game was sealed over the Cheese incident. I went lazy at the end but the association between Clarity and you was quite strong and it was the main reason for me to be so crazy about you. The attempts to soft-defend and to put distance between you are not so bad but there was no follow-up nor back-up for some posts. Your bus of Clarity was a little obvious because you showed absolutely no doubt of him being scum. On the opposite of the other game, town was quite active and post their heart out of the game. It was a very emotional game so we didn't need so much rational analysis. I'm looking forward to discuss this game even more after the end post | ||
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On November 09 2012 00:22 Alsn wrote: Woah. I bet that was because of my statements around the lynch? Why does everyone hate me. @ Alsn I thought that your Cheesecake case was a way out for your scumbuddy It was the first time to see you post a case in a condensed post after only 2 hours On top of that, there was some serious double standards involved. | ||
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On November 05 2012 06:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: <snip> I'm not going to push a Djo lynch again, mainly because arguing with him is a game of cat and mouse. I think neutrality is going to become an integral part of my play D1 anyway. Taking a huge stance this early just doesn't seem all that feasible for me, because a lot of my arguments are "nit-picky" as Djo calls it. Once the first person flips, things become a lot more clear to me based on context and I can go from there. At this point, the only reason I'd vote for Debears is to get concrete info, which isn't a good thing. I'd vote Clarity because his Debears counter-case is really OMGUSy and he seems like the person to actively lurk. Brb dinner. Also, Regular Fapper. I'm just going to be neutral, D1 is random anyway. By the way I'm Regular Fapper ! On November 05 2012 08:19 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Everyone seems so concerned on why I haven't been pushing my case on Djo. You know why? Because everything that I find scummy about him, people attribute to his "Djo" attitude and the way he words things. I made a ton of mistakes last game that I find him doing this game. I point them out, but the entire thread is just like "You know, it's just Djo being Djo". Incredibly frustrating. I dropped my case and accusing him of scummy behavior because I actually didn't feel like hitting my head into this brick wall anymore. So, I decided to go back to a neutral stance and look at what other people were doing. His 180 on pressure voting is something that I found to be damning as hell (Alsn, I think you agree on this?) He explains this by giving some sorry excuse about the difference between suspicion votes and pressure votes and blah blah blah. You know what? Fuck that. Djo is scummy as hell to me. Was last game(regardless of me being scum), is this game. I don't give two shits how he handles the language or his defense. The only reason he gets away with a ton of his posts is because his meta is cheerfully innocent. /Engageconfirmationbiasgoggles ##Vote: Djodref Also, Regular Fapper right here. Just fappin' away. Oh shit ! There is a case against me ? Let's take some stance, quickly ! And guys, didn't you see that I was Regular Fapper ? On November 05 2012 08:34 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Confirmed clarity as VT btw. LOL /shit storm ensues... | ||
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I think he has made some small mistakes during D1 which have irked me a little
After the Cheese incident, I've found out that his interaction with Cheese was quite weird as well and I couldn't believe that he had PMed marv way before about the flavor because nobody else has done it. And him hitting at being blue was the icing on the cake. | ||
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There was a little imbalanced and we were lucky to be able to use it as our advantage ^^ | ||
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Souel Gardien Hostel was terrible in comparison to yours... I was hoping that daoud would not catch it at first glance. @ Clarity The extra info was the fact that we blue did not know about the VT flavor until Cheese claim where we received a PM from marv. Fortunately for me, I was catching up at that time, so I couldn't do the kind of mistake that you did. So I knew you could not be blue at all when you were saying that you asked your question to marv when you noticed that the VT flavor was different in the OP and in your PM. I was already suspicious of you and the hints you were giving for a blue Clarity felt very wrong for me. I knew I could confirm you as scum if you claimed and I think I would have backed off a little if you were admitting to be a VT. | ||
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At some point during D1 when I was reading the thread while Rad and debears had their pissing contest about the fluff or not fluff ordeal, I thought that I should be looking about the players that I didn't notice. And that how I found Clarity ^^ Hapa encouraged me to have this mindset so I thought I was on the good tracks. | ||
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I think that if you were really sick you should totally have used it as an excuse. The best way to play scum is to use your own emotions to look sincere in your posting and in the story you are telling everybody about (it is always the story of this bad town player with awful reads). In newbies, people tend to get very emotional Obzy "defeated" post was just the best way for him to look town. You could also feel his relief after that when people trusted him more. First game is always very frustrating ^^ | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
On November 09 2012 01:41 Dandel Ion wrote: Djo, You underestimate how easy it is to fake emotions as scum. Especially if they're half true anyways. Don't worry about this, I've been using it quite well in my Looney Game | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
On November 09 2012 01:41 Clarity_nl wrote: Yeah I hope I didn't insult you with that Obzy =] I hope you end up playing again sometime! Same goes for Rad. Don't get discouraged that you felt I wasn't scum, your arguments make sense. It's just with the combination of not contributing yourself (you like to sit back and figure stuff out, I get that, I really do!) it might look dodgy. Djo, I felt like saying I'm ill, true or not, will just seem like a convenient excuse. At least when others do this I always question it. @ Clarity I'm not sure... People are not only rational, did you notice how Obzy got almost confirmed town with his post ? I don't think that's something you should use too much but if you are apathetic, you can also be pinned for it. | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
And the bad case from Clarity and Obzy counter-case was just sooo good | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
On November 09 2012 03:07 Clarity_nl wrote: Could you explain why it was a bad case? :p @ Clarity I don't know, confirmation bias ?On a serious note, you did not show how his actions were mafia motivated. Some part of your case were also twisting his posts to serve your purpose. And the formatting did not help to get your main points against him. But mostly confirmation bias... | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
On November 09 2012 03:05 debears wrote: Well game over Gg guys I'm late to the party gg debears ! All the glory for long filters belongs to me ! I think I should have jailed you but I was really afraid to get NKed myself (especially with how much I was talking about the blues during N1) so I chose to take the risk not to protect and try to target the mafia instead. So I went after Alsn, him being an obvious scumbuddy for Clarity. By the way, I found both sylvefyre and Clarity before you But I admit that your cases were better, especially sylver one... | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
But I think we give too much a town advice and not enough of mafia advice ^^ | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
I'm not sure if I could personally keep up with such activity the next time I roll mafia. I'll try my best ! Do you guys have ever tried to play without checking your role PM at all ? I was tempted to do it for D1... This was my last newbie by the way so I'm going to miss coaches and newbs I'm joining the "Cold War Africa Mafia" game from Shady Sands and I hope some of you can also join this one ! Clarity has already in ^^ Imma tunnel him again with bad arguments again but as a mafia player (I hope) this time | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
I was thinking at this strategy only for D1 though, but I don't think I could resist to open the PM anyway. | ||
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