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Z-Bo is 99.99% scum. I don't think there's anything he could say that could convince me otherwise at this point, and I will push him with everything I've got.
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Well, well, you are quick to pounce.
I found the probability of him lying greater than the one of him telling the truth and playing like he is. He's had forever to contribute.
99.99% you say?
I think you just very well claimed scum here really. Even if I was scum, a townie wouldn't have so much certainty on that fact with my filter, especially with the entirety of your case solely residing on my stance of v7. You are just fake-tunneling hard now, my friend.
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Ack, what?
Z-Bo probably not scum for hammering like that. Not definitely, but I don't see it.
On October 23 2012 07:46 austinmcc wrote:
Drazak
Almost 24 hours ago, you were scummy on v7 and "probably a little scummy" on keirathi.
Do those reads still hold? If not, why?
What is your read on marv?
Who in the thread is your #1 townread?
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Btw,
On October 20 2012 11:52 Keirathi wrote:There's nothing to respond to. Common sense should tell you that if someone makes a dumb hammer that you should look into them. I don't know why you felt the need to specifically talk about it. Also, its not like there's a specific metric for how "dumb" a hammer is anyways. Its just a judgment call by everyone in the game. If that time comes, we can discuss it then.
Interesting idea of discussion:
I don't think there's anything he could say that could convince me otherwise at this point, and I will push him with everything I've got.
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On October 23 2012 09:13 Z-BosoN wrote:
Well, well, you are quick to pounce.
I found the probability of him lying greater than the one of him telling the truth and playing like he is. He's had forever to contribute.
99.99% you say?
I think you just very well claimed scum here really. Even if I was scum, a townie wouldn't have so much certainty on that fact with my filter, especially with the entirety of your case solely residing on my stance of v7. You are just fake-tunneling hard now, my friend.
Except you never said you thought he was lying. In fact, you DID believe that he was posting from his phone. So, he was telling the truth about that, but lying about the reasoning?
Technically, yes my entire read is base off of your stance on v7. First, you magically through his name in your scum list from out of nowhere, right after he gets 3 votes in the thread and gaining momentum. And then you hammer him for two terrible reasons. That's not the town ZB I've seen lately.
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On October 23 2012 09:23 Z-BosoN wrote:Btw, Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 11:52 Keirathi wrote:There's nothing to respond to. Common sense should tell you that if someone makes a dumb hammer that you should look into them. I don't know why you felt the need to specifically talk about it. Also, its not like there's a specific metric for how "dumb" a hammer is anyways. Its just a judgment call by everyone in the game. If that time comes, we can discuss it then. Interesting idea of discussion: Show nested quote +I don't think there's anything he could say that could convince me otherwise at this point, and I will push him with everything I've got.
I'm not really sure what your point is, but my judgement call on your terrible hammer is tht you are scum, and I plan to discuss that with people until they see things my way or convince me otherwise. (Also note: I sai that there was nothing YOU could say that could convince me otherwise. Subtle, but very very different distinction)
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Keirathi,
If you think Z-Bo's hammer was "terrible" why do you also think he's scum? Why would scum openly make a terrible hammer vote?
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If e thought he was going to die if he didn't, yes. He was the counter wagon after all.
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EBWOP: if ZB is scum, hammering totally makes sense, no matter how bad it is and how much it puts him in the spotlight. Unless he can convince everyone else of a stronger candidate than himself or v7, which I don't think he could, one of them was probably going to die. Might as well take out the townie, and then let people play WIFOM games of "why would scum make a terrible hammer".
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Okay, makes a little more sense if you've got extra worries like that.
But he only had 2 votes. I don't see scum being that afraid of dying with 2 votes, when he hadn't picked up fresh votes in a while. Like, he would have been worried much sooner, all day, and could have voted earlier, or pushed v7 earlier, or done things that weren't just dicking around with hapa. If he were scum and actually worried about being lynched, I don't understand why he'd spend his day in a giant fight with hapa, rather than doing something all scummy.
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On October 23 2012 09:38 Keirathi wrote:
EBWOP: if ZB is scum, hammering totally makes sense, no matter how bad it is and how much it puts him in the spotlight. Unless he can convince everyone else of a stronger candidate than himself or v7, which I don't think he could, one of them was probably going to die. Might as well take out the townie, and then let people play WIFOM games of "why would scum make a terrible hammer".
So, I'm paranoid and I usually think things like this. However, IF he was going to take out a townie and play WIFOM games, then I would expect him to do that. Instead, you pounce on him, and he pretty quickly looks through your filter and finds that quote about dumb hammers.
If he were scum wanting to WIFOM, I would expect him to WIFOM. Instead, he seems to have gone to look at the filter of his attacker, and bring up something specific to you where you said you weren't concerned about dumb hammers. i.e. he's concerned with your attack on him, rather than WIFOMing the scumminess of his hammer.
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^
Not sure if the above makes full sense, but I screwed up in newbie XVI under similar circumstances. 2 possible scums, 1 had an optimal mislynch on me, the other had an optimal mislynch on townie X.
I went with "They each have obvious mislynches, so I'll go with the other guy cuz he probably made the suboptimal kill to WIFOM us." Except the other guy NEVER WIFOMed the night kill, he just kept saying he wasn't scum, and I lynched him, and he flipped town.
If he were going to WIFOM over the hammer, I would expect him to start out with WIFOM and not with looking through your filter.
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But see, he didn't even have to start the WIFOM games. You did it for him. He would theoretically want town to come to the conclusion that scum would have never hammered v7 on their own. If he mentions it, then it looks suspicious.
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I find that less likely than scum-Z-Bo right now
He couldn't be sure that someone would make that argument. So now he figured he could hammer as scum and let someone else do the dirty work (or a scumbuddy do the dirty work) and bring up a defense based on what happened to me in Newbie XVI concerning a WIFOM argument that one of his attackers might make.
I also still think the pressure is overblown.
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EBWOP: Less likely than TOWN Z-Bo right now
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 23 2012 09:41 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 09:38 Keirathi wrote:
EBWOP: if ZB is scum, hammering totally makes sense, no matter how bad it is and how much it puts him in the spotlight. Unless he can convince everyone else of a stronger candidate than himself or v7, which I don't think he could, one of them was probably going to die. Might as well take out the townie, and then let people play WIFOM games of "why would scum make a terrible hammer". So, I'm paranoid and I usually think things like this. However, IF he was going to take out a townie and play WIFOM games, then I would expect him to do that. Instead, you pounce on him, and he pretty quickly looks through your filter and finds that quote about dumb hammers. If he were scum wanting to WIFOM, I would expect him to WIFOM. Instead, he seems to have gone to look at the filter of his attacker, and bring up something specific to you where you said you weren't concerned about dumb hammers. i.e. he's concerned with your attack on him, rather than WIFOMing the scumminess of his hammer.
What would you consider optimal scum play in Z-Bo's situation?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
post-flip and with Kei's accusations, I mean.
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On October 23 2012 09:51 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 09:41 austinmcc wrote:On October 23 2012 09:38 Keirathi wrote:
EBWOP: if ZB is scum, hammering totally makes sense, no matter how bad it is and how much it puts him in the spotlight. Unless he can convince everyone else of a stronger candidate than himself or v7, which I don't think he could, one of them was probably going to die. Might as well take out the townie, and then let people play WIFOM games of "why would scum make a terrible hammer". So, I'm paranoid and I usually think things like this. However, IF he was going to take out a townie and play WIFOM games, then I would expect him to do that. Instead, you pounce on him, and he pretty quickly looks through your filter and finds that quote about dumb hammers. If he were scum wanting to WIFOM, I would expect him to WIFOM. Instead, he seems to have gone to look at the filter of his attacker, and bring up something specific to you where you said you weren't concerned about dumb hammers. i.e. he's concerned with your attack on him, rather than WIFOMing the scumminess of his hammer. What would you consider optimal scum play in Z-Bo's situation?
Pre-hammer or post?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
bwaha, ninjad you :p (by my own lack of clarity)
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He was definitely posting from his cell phone. I can't see why he wouldn't post from his computer if he was home though.
What fucking reasoning did you want me to give? I didn't feel the need to iterate what everyone said. Seriously, bug off with this. Guy was looking extremely scummy and I agreed with the cases on him.
In this instance, I simply read through his filter for a freaking long time, and decided that his posts were unconvincing. Felt like he was purposefully not posting from his computer so as to justify his in-activeness. He had a fuckton of hours to make real contributions and I felt that the ones he actually made didn't prove themselves to be that great. He also said he had extensive experience, and his posts didn't seem to support taht fact, adding confirmation to my theory that he was purposefully only posting through his cell phone.
What else do you want me to repeat? I was actually having the feeling someone was going to pounce on me for over-justifying my hammer...
I felt safe about it and went through with it. You think I gave terrible reasoning? Go cry about it.
Also, this is some of the stupidest shit I've seen in this thread:
On October 23 2012 09:38 Keirathi wrote:
EBWOP: if ZB is scum, hammering totally makes sense, no matter how bad it is and how much it puts him in the spotlight. Unless he can convince everyone else of a stronger candidate than himself or v7, which I don't think he could, one of them was probably going to die. Might as well take out the townie, and then let people play WIFOM games of "why would scum make a terrible hammer".
Except I was nowhere near getting lynched. Except drazak was a much easier target, and I actually spent hours going through his filter to try to find in him a better option.
Then I figured that from my reading that I was much much more comfortable with a v7 lynch than a drazak one.
Omg, I can't get over the fact of why in every single game as town I have an apostle who insists for his life I'm scum. So fucking tired of this shit. Go away, shoo.
I actually have to go right now, but I'm really thinking Kei is scum. Not buying his "omg you hammered a townie, ergo you are scum and is trying to WIFOM by cleverly manipulating townies to do it for him!".
Also, I fully stand behind DP's meta case on him:
On October 22 2012 13:10 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 12:44 Keirathi wrote:On October 22 2012 12:28 drazak wrote:
ok, from recent times I saw giving a better explaination of my read on vader and my scummiest atm.
V7 disappeared for forever, with no activity, explains it away with work, but if he was going to have work issues like this, why did he accept the invite? At first I voted for him just to get him to talk, tbh there was a vote count between when I started writing the post and when I posted it, I thought there were 2 votes on him, not 3, or I probably wouldn't have voted. When he finally came back, he started claiming that you can't make reads D1? What? 50 games of mafia and you can't make or force reads on D1? Not sure I grok here. Want to see what he says when he wakes up but he's not going to be around for awhile.
I feel like keir is probably a little scummy, he over-reacted a bit when accused, which is ok, but then he says I'm being scummy, and then his next post... defends me? Not sure I understood that, while contradicting yourself is scummy, I'm not sure why you'd do it. You're agressively defensive and then cover all of your over reactions by saying you'll flip out over it, what? You should be home by now, not sure why you think threatening to flip out helps defend your over-reactions, not sure why you'd say that.
First: no, I'm not home yet. Probably. Another hour or so. Second: where did I attack you, then defend you in my next post? You have it backwards: I defended you first, then started attacking you based on your explanations to what the other people were accusing you of. Also, does aggressively defending myself make me scum? If so, why? Why not just a frustrated townie? Explain your thought process, please. It is fucking weird Keir. Last game when pressured as town Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 14:45 Keirathi wrote:On October 04 2012 13:10 DarthPunk wrote:
Keirathi
Super scummy. He came out of the gates really aggressively towards several people. He makes a lot of noise commenting on their anti-town play.
Not several people. Just kush. Because I thought kush was town based on his demeanor, but his voting and play was distinctly anti-town. I spent a lot of time trying to make him see that. But I should have just shut up and let him play stupidly? Okay. On October 04 2012 13:10 DarthPunk wrote:
I would quote more but they are in his filter and there is alot of this. He is not actually contributing. Just criticising the play of others. Not scum hunting just telling people that they are bad/anti-town.
Nothing I can really say about that. It's pretty true. After questioning KJ, I felt comfortable in my scum read of him. So I spent the rest of my time questioning other people and berating kush. On October 04 2012 13:10 DarthPunk wrote:He leaves his vote on KJ despite huge voting activity at deadline and It becomes meaningless. In spite of saying this earlier On October 01 2012 12:27 Keirathi wrote:
EBWOP: For that matter, why do you need to leave your vote parked on someone anyways?
Your vote is your means of pressuring someone and getting a response. If your vote is meaningless all game, no one is going to care about it and feel the need to justify themselves to you. You're basically giving up your only power as a townie for some contrived need of having your vote out. After the lack of scum hunting and his meaningless vote on KJ. What you probably didn't pick up on just by reading my filter (or maybe intentionally misrepresenting?), is the timing of my posts. Go back and look at my last post on day 1. It was 9 hours before the deadline (and 32 hours before my next post). That's because I took an unplanned trip out of town and didn't have internet. My vote might have been meaningless at the end of the day, but when I left it wasn't (KJ had the majority). There was literally nothing I could have done because I didn't have internet access to keep up with the game. On October 04 2012 13:10 DarthPunk wrote:
Couple of things stand out about this vote on marv.
He actually bothers to explain his vote. Even though it is blatantly clear why people would vote for him. He feels the need to explain it anyway.
He expresses displeasure in not being faster to vote for marv. You know who cares about in which order they vote for someone. Scum. That's who.
ToutEstChaos justified his vote too. Why is the fact that I did it scummier than the fact that he did it? Also, the "Damnit, I'm slow" comment was because, when I first read the daypost, no one had commented on the reason Risen had died, nor voted marv yet. So I quoted Risen's death, then started trying to find the post where Risen had said to kill marv when he died. By the time I had finished, Tout had already beat me to the explanation. Basically you're saying that it would have been townier for me to first vote marv, 10 minutes after the day post, with 0 explanation. I don't buy that. It would be like the people who took flak for hopping on Matt without explanation in LVII after his Nosy Neighbor claim. On October 04 2012 13:10 DarthPunk wrote:
I have played with Keir before when he was town. This is not how he started at all. Not even close.
FoS: Keirathi This is reasonable, but a question: have you read my scum game (GSL Open Mini Mafia 1) for reference? I mean, sure I'm aware that I played a reasonably "good" scum game in that, so if I wanted to play differently I could. But would I really go for the extreme opposite end of the spectrum? From "good" scum, to terrible and easily caught? Anyways, I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to lynch me tomorrow. I lost some of my interest after having to catch up with 24+ hours of two different games. Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 00:13 Keirathi wrote:
The point in making them is for you to do a little research yourself. Seriously. Go look through my scum game. If you still think my mentality is the same, then I deserve the vote, and I'll do whatever I can before I die to clear up my thoughts. Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 03:05 Keirathi wrote:On October 06 2012 01:58 DarthPunk wrote:So after My case Keirathi presented a token defense and has since disappeared. His last post was this. On October 05 2012 00:13 Keirathi wrote:
The point in making them is for you to do a little research yourself. Seriously. Go look through my scum game. If you still think my mentality is the same, then I deserve the vote, and I'll do whatever I can before I die to clear up my thoughts. But I don't see him doing whatever he can right now. And I don't feel his previous scum game somehow clears his play this game. Keirathi 100% does not play like this as town. There's literally no way to refute that. You're 100% right, I've been unmotivated to put much effort into this game since 1) I missed ~30 hours of the day, and 2) we had a confirmed scum. Hell, I would probably vote for me tomorrow in your shoes. And that's not "martyring", its just the truth that I've done nothing to prove my towniness. But, I wasn't lying. I will scour the game and give my thoughts sometime soon. Hopefully before the day post, since I don't have any plans when I get off work this afternoon. Calm, non aggressive, Rational. Town Keir reacting to a case against him. He would appeals to reason rather than emotion. Perhaps this is because he knows he is town and feels that if reason is applied to the case on him it will come undone? Who knows? The point is his reaction to pressure in his previous game as town compared to this one is stark in its differences. Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 01:47 Keirathi wrote:On October 21 2012 01:34 Z-BosoN wrote:Well I got sniped. Anyways, On October 21 2012 01:18 Keirathi wrote:On October 21 2012 00:46 Hapahauli wrote:
Yah I'm a bit surprised at how little Kei has contributed so far. Early D1 caveats of course, but I always had the impression that his town play was very active on the early days.
It was friday night. I went out. I wasn't expecting the game to start yesterday, and I wasn't going to change my plans anyways. Also, that's such a blanket statement (and not even necessarily a true one...I've not been super active early in like half of my games), that has absolutely nothing to do with my alignment. I was "very active" in the early game as scum too. So what was the point of even saying that? On October 20 2012 23:58 Z-BosoN wrote:
Right now I'm more interested in Keirathi. Made this one easy-to-make post, and didn't really stick around, made no other comments. This seems to me like too easy of a post for someone like Keir to make, and doesn't seem genuine.
What the fuck does that even mean? "Someone like Keir"? And also, explain how that post isn't genuine, please. Darth's post, pre-explanation, made absolutely zero sense, and I disagreed with him asking it. Post-explanation, it was still dumb and never going to accomplish what he said his "goal" was, but at least I understand his reasoning now. Anyways, its gameday. I'll be around off and on today, but not sitting at the computer all day. Why the overreaction? I found your post to be an useless agreement that didn't add anything, and your lack of follow-up even more suspicious. The underlined is why I didn't find it to be genuine, given that there were a string of posts after your own which dealt with it. I fully agree that it was dumb, but you left no opinion of it. That's just saying something and drawing no conclusions from it, and even worse, not looking like you want to draw any conclusions. I can be wrong here, but your post to me didn't feel genuine and I think that makes you suspicious. What? I made it perfectly clear what my opinion on it was. It was a bullshit post, and I called it that, and wanted him to explain. I was not, and am not, going to make any decisions about his alignment based on that. He at least provided a plausible explanation, even if it does feel a little "made up after-the-fact" because someone called him out on it. I don't think it makes him scummy, nor do I think it makes him town. What, exactly, is the point of saying "Yea, he's still neutral"? Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 06:28 Keirathi wrote:On October 22 2012 05:13 austinmcc wrote:Keirathi then pops in to comment on v7's post: On October 20 2012 12:19 Keirathi wrote:
I completely agree with vader here.
I mean, DP, what if Draz is a blue. What do you expect him to say? Of course he's not going to claim a blue role (I hope), a few hours into day 1. So, he claims Progamer. Then he gets close to lynch, and says "Okay, I'm actually Nestea. Don't lynch me!". What are you going to do, lynch him because he lied and said he was progamer 3 hours into the game?
I call bullshit. You know that everyone is going to claim progamer just the same as everyone is going to claim green.
There were many acceptable replies iamp's accusation. Yours was not one of them. He's much more forceful in what he's saying. "I call bullshit" "There were many acceptable replies...yours was not one of them." Actually keirathi's response is also interesting to me. iamperfection votes DP, for reasons keirathi seems to agree with. Keirathi calls DP's response bullshit and unacceptable, and...that's it. There's no vote, no FOS, no further comment. "You have given a bullshit/unacceptable response to a vote...carry on." Kind of odd to me. Kei doesn't comment any further. Doesn't follow-up on this. I guess I can respond to this since I'm around for a bit before I have to go sit with my grandpa again. I'm not going to vote for something that I'm not pretty convinced of. His answer to the questioning going on in thread was way more important than what he actually said that I called bullshit on. Also, FOS is a stupid term that I have never nor will ever use. Calling a post bullshit and making a pressure "case" is as close as you'll ever get to seeing an FOS from me. And, about not following up: it was friday night. I went out for the night. Fucking sue me. (And yes, marv, I am being aggressively defensive. If people really want to lynch me for that then I'm going to flip the fuck out.) Threatening, abrasive emotional. This game it seems as if keir would rather people apply emotion rather than reason to the much more minor case against him. Perhaps he has some inherent guilt that would cause him to shy away from the revealing light of analytical reasoning. Whatever there is a stark difference in the manner in which keir has handled the pressure against him this game in comparison to his previous game as town. And it is weird.
His pressure of me here is also extremely exaggerated. Anyways, enough for today. Laters
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