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On October 26 2012 08:11 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:01 Promethelax wrote:
Not just that, we saw his crumbs, his blue tells and his everything else and still found him scummy. DP, you had a good case, I was sad you dropped it. I would have wanted him to claim outright since that would mean that mafia would be forced to kill him or if he lived I could just lynch him. Also I almost did ask him to claim outright ROFL. I asked him if he was trying to crumb medic. I was beside myself at that point. So I took a shower and thought about it and decided to drop it for now.
Fair enough. I would have taken the next step. You wouldn't. Just the difference in our play. I don't think either one is objectively better.
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On October 26 2012 08:10 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:08 DarthPunk wrote:On October 26 2012 08:01 Promethelax wrote:
Not just that, we saw his crumbs, his blue tells and his everything else and still found him scummy. DP, you had a good case, I was sad you dropped it. I would have wanted him to claim outright since that would mean that mafia would be forced to kill him or if he lived I could just lynch him. This is the reasoning behind me dropping the case on Draz. If he was medic, scum are going to night kill him. As we get closer to lylo it would be increasingly risky to keep him alive. If he was still alive later in the game I was going to go all out for his blood. But I thought it would be better to drop it for now and see if he got night killed. Rather than potentially waste a lynch on him. If you know what I mean? Right, but what I was saying is that I would want to pressure him into claiming fully. If he is scum that gives him less wiggle room and makes sure that mafia know he is medic (in case the mafia is one of those lurky/don't-read-the-thread types).
Yeah you are right. But at that point to me he had already claimed medic. And then Austin told me to STFU. So that is part of it too I guess.
One of the other reasons I stopped pushing him was that I thought that if he was fake claiming the real medic would do the pushing and If I quieted down I would be able to see that person pushing easier.
I actually thought Austin was the medic if draz was scum. And that is why he told me to STFU about the medic speculation and also why he was pushing draz despite the obvious medic 'claim'.
But perhaps you are right and I should have forced the issue. I can definitely see the advantages in that. Forcing scum to not risk it and kill draz over hapa/austin/marv would actually be a decent outcome.
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On October 26 2012 08:16 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:10 Promethelax wrote:On October 26 2012 08:08 DarthPunk wrote:On October 26 2012 08:01 Promethelax wrote:
Not just that, we saw his crumbs, his blue tells and his everything else and still found him scummy. DP, you had a good case, I was sad you dropped it. I would have wanted him to claim outright since that would mean that mafia would be forced to kill him or if he lived I could just lynch him. This is the reasoning behind me dropping the case on Draz. If he was medic, scum are going to night kill him. As we get closer to lylo it would be increasingly risky to keep him alive. If he was still alive later in the game I was going to go all out for his blood. But I thought it would be better to drop it for now and see if he got night killed. Rather than potentially waste a lynch on him. If you know what I mean? Right, but what I was saying is that I would want to pressure him into claiming fully. If he is scum that gives him less wiggle room and makes sure that mafia know he is medic (in case the mafia is one of those lurky/don't-read-the-thread types). Yeah you are right. But at that point to me he had already claimed medic. And then Austin told me to STFU. So that is part of it too I guess. One of the other reasons I stopped pushing him was that I thought that if he was fake claiming the real medic would do the pushing and If I quieted down I would be able to see that person pushing easier. I actually thought Austin was the medic if draz was scum. And that is why he told me to STFU about the medic speculation and also why he was pushing draz despite the obvious medic 'claim'. But perhaps you are right and I should have forced the issue. I can definitely see the advantages in that. Forcing scum to not risk it and kill draz over hapa/austin/marv would actually be a decent outcome.
Exactly. I have no evidence that my way is better though. I just prefer when the super scummy dude is a prime mafia target. I don't really like power roles all that much, I value good townie green dudes > shitty scummy blue dudes
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On October 26 2012 08:08 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:01 Promethelax wrote:
Not just that, we saw his crumbs, his blue tells and his everything else and still found him scummy. DP, you had a good case, I was sad you dropped it. I would have wanted him to claim outright since that would mean that mafia would be forced to kill him or if he lived I could just lynch him. This is the reasoning behind me dropping the case on Draz. If he was medic, scum are going to night kill him. As we get closer to lylo it would be increasingly risky to keep him alive. If he was still alive later in the game I was going to go all out for his blood. But I thought it would be better to drop it for now and see if he got night killed. Rather than potentially waste a lynch on him. If you know what I mean?
I thought about some of this and actually DIDN'T post it to thread.
Assuming there was a save N1, mafia could kill the medic N2 if he claimed but didn't need to. Can't protect the same target 2x in a row, so they could kill whoever they wanted dead N1 on N2, and then kill the medic N3 IF they were that concerned with the medic.
Either way, there's a confirmed townie living til N3 (Either the medic or his protect). Either way, both the medic and the protect are dead after N3, but the outed medic can't affect NKs so long as mafia still wants to kill the N1 target and the medic over other choices.
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On October 26 2012 08:18 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:16 DarthPunk wrote:On October 26 2012 08:10 Promethelax wrote:On October 26 2012 08:08 DarthPunk wrote:On October 26 2012 08:01 Promethelax wrote:
Not just that, we saw his crumbs, his blue tells and his everything else and still found him scummy. DP, you had a good case, I was sad you dropped it. I would have wanted him to claim outright since that would mean that mafia would be forced to kill him or if he lived I could just lynch him. This is the reasoning behind me dropping the case on Draz. If he was medic, scum are going to night kill him. As we get closer to lylo it would be increasingly risky to keep him alive. If he was still alive later in the game I was going to go all out for his blood. But I thought it would be better to drop it for now and see if he got night killed. Rather than potentially waste a lynch on him. If you know what I mean? Right, but what I was saying is that I would want to pressure him into claiming fully. If he is scum that gives him less wiggle room and makes sure that mafia know he is medic (in case the mafia is one of those lurky/don't-read-the-thread types). Yeah you are right. But at that point to me he had already claimed medic. And then Austin told me to STFU. So that is part of it too I guess. One of the other reasons I stopped pushing him was that I thought that if he was fake claiming the real medic would do the pushing and If I quieted down I would be able to see that person pushing easier. I actually thought Austin was the medic if draz was scum. And that is why he told me to STFU about the medic speculation and also why he was pushing draz despite the obvious medic 'claim'. But perhaps you are right and I should have forced the issue. I can definitely see the advantages in that. Forcing scum to not risk it and kill draz over hapa/austin/marv would actually be a decent outcome. Exactly. I have no evidence that my way is better though. I just prefer when the super scummy dude is a prime mafia target. I don't really like power roles all that much, I value good townie green dudes > shitty scummy blue dudes
Yeha. Forcing scum to night kill the lynch bait. Love it. 
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On October 26 2012 08:21 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:08 DarthPunk wrote:On October 26 2012 08:01 Promethelax wrote:
Not just that, we saw his crumbs, his blue tells and his everything else and still found him scummy. DP, you had a good case, I was sad you dropped it. I would have wanted him to claim outright since that would mean that mafia would be forced to kill him or if he lived I could just lynch him. This is the reasoning behind me dropping the case on Draz. If he was medic, scum are going to night kill him. As we get closer to lylo it would be increasingly risky to keep him alive. If he was still alive later in the game I was going to go all out for his blood. But I thought it would be better to drop it for now and see if he got night killed. Rather than potentially waste a lynch on him. If you know what I mean? I thought about some of this and actually DIDN'T post it to thread. Assuming there was a save N1, mafia could kill the medic N2 if he claimed but didn't need to. Can't protect the same target 2x in a row, so they could kill whoever they wanted dead N1 on N2, and then kill the medic N3 IF they were that concerned with the medic. Either way, there's a confirmed townie living til N3 (Either the medic or his protect). Either way, both the medic and the protect are dead after N3, but the outed medic can't affect NKs so long as mafia still wants to kill the N1 target and the medic over other choices.
But scum would have read that post by draz and gone MEDIC OMG. They know he is town remember? So the only thing we accomplished by STFU is to deny ourselves clarity on who the protect was.
The more I think about it the more I agree with Promes position on this.
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more information is good for town, since the medic claim was already in the thread making it clear so that Draz could say "Hi, me=medic, save=Austin" you get two confirmed townies. Confirmed townies are awesome, especially when one of them is the lynch bait.
edit: I see DP said all this. My bad.
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yeah, I was going to post 1 minute before night end regarding who I saved and that I was medic, which means if mafia doesn't kill me, I get another day to live and austin maybe lives.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
yes, aside from town's good play and my poor play, we had a number of unfortunate factors conspiring against us. Just the way things fall sometimes I guess, especially in a really small game.
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On October 26 2012 06:28 Blazinghand wrote:
In my experience in instant lynch games, scum typically try very hard to avoid being the hammering vote. They're usually in the middle of the wagon. Of course, as soon as I say that it becomes less true, but it still applies. Hammering is usually not something you want to do as scum. Even done well, you naturally stick out in people's minds as the hammerer. Just because a guy hammers a townie doesn't make him scum.
A good and powerful scum move can be to be that leader that is discussing things and leading things. You can reach a point where its like close to deadline anyways and then drop the hammer in a way that seems to be agreed upon. At that point its just wifom to judge that hammer and you have to find other facts to support a case against that hammerer.
@ Zbo- I understand the mindset you had when you hammered me, just realize that feeling inpatient in a game with no deadline might be a mind set that benefits scum way more than town.
Hammer should make the town patient as fuck in all cases. Putting someone at -1 hammer can be dangerous even. The extreme case is when scum have a read or found a crumb and decide to sac a player to hammer a player that might be a power role.
I also found it very scummy how you hammered me and made a very weak case around it. You would have been better off saying, "Fuck this guy, he has had enough time ##vote vaderseven." The way you did it seemed very contrived to me and because of that you became the #1 scum suspect on my list.
Town players only hammer with strong good reasons. Hence why it can be so awesome if you are scum and you pull off a good hammer. Its like an amazing play to gain town cred... if you can pull it off.
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The reason I like games where there is a min to make some a candidate for the lynch and then a max that nets a hammer is because it makes town vote for people that would really stand by lynching. If you keep your vote off you allow the scum to have the ability to unvote and save and if you have your vote on you allow them to maybe control the lynch via a hammer. Every vote is extremely important at all points in the day in such a system.
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Alright. some quick thought. I couldn't finish following the game after marv's lynch with my final newbie (gotta kick some ass)
What was drazak's big slip that I didn't get to read? Quote plz?
1) drazak - It was blatantly obvious that you were hiding something. I would've insta nked you as mafia in most setups. Read the early obs QT for my read.
Here's one of the posts on the last page
debears
10-24-2012
11:03 AM ET (US)
And that means doctor only. Might need to read thru filters to find the dox.
Candidates off top of my head
Drazak
Dp
Austin?
2) DP - Yeah we thought wayyyyy similar this game. I thought we were the same person this game :D
And yeah I would've pushed drazak too. In the worst case scenario, you reveal a confirmed medic. Best case scenario, you lynch the final scum. With one scum left it isn't too risky, especially with the boxer claim and how obvious it was to scum he was a blue
3) Hapa - Boss mode like dat. Apparently I can't read marv for shit (somehow I got him right in LC). Helluva case good sir.
4) Z-Bo - I have a streak of thinking you're scum lol. Fortunately the hammer cleared your scumminess imo
5) Marv - Lol. No chance. Hapas case was bulletproof (or pretty damn close)
6) Austin - I really was on you in the qt because it seemed like your posts really weren't accomplishing anything d1/d2. I must be very wrong cuz everyone saw you as townie :/
Can anyone help me out with Austin on why he was townie? Example posts and such?
7) Iamp -
debears
10-23-2012
09:21 PM ET (US)
lol yeah. I'm still wanting to try the bus scum partners 1 and 2 and then solo to victory lol.
and look at the word choice by iamp. Uses know instead of no.......weird. breadcrumb to parity cop????
Was that an intentional breadcrumb?
8) Keir - Ya i definitely misread that post lol....whoops
9) I had a lot of trouble making town reads this game. Almost everyone was doing scummy things in my eyes. Guess that's not necessarily bad, but it isn't good. I got way confused at the end
Here was the last list I posted, scummy to townie
Draz (saw blue or mafia pretty equally likely)
marvellosity
austin
z-boson (hammer vote is either town or ballsy scum. And he did get in a shit flinging fest)
Keirathi
iamperfection (never really saw as scummy :/)
Hapahauli
DarthPunk
AND MOST IMPORTANT ANSWER THIS
debears
10-24-2012
12:39 AM ET (US)
btw is this "S-Class" label referencing Yu Yu Hakusho??
time for bed....this post was way longer than I thought it would be
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Debears, in response to some of your questions - + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 15:29 debears wrote:
Alright. some quick thought. I couldn't finish following the game after marv's lynch with my final newbie (gotta kick some ass)
What was drazak's big slip that I didn't get to read? Quote plz?
1) drazak - It was blatantly obvious that you were hiding something. I would've insta nked you as mafia in most setups. Read the early obs QT for my read.
Here's one of the posts on the last page
debears
10-24-2012
11:03 AM ET (US)
And that means doctor only. Might need to read thru filters to find the dox.
Candidates off top of my head
Drazak
Dp
Austin?
2) DP - Yeah we thought wayyyyy similar this game. I thought we were the same person this game :D
And yeah I would've pushed drazak too. In the worst case scenario, you reveal a confirmed medic. Best case scenario, you lynch the final scum. With one scum left it isn't too risky, especially with the boxer claim and how obvious it was to scum he was a blue
3) Hapa - Boss mode like dat. Apparently I can't read marv for shit (somehow I got him right in LC). Helluva case good sir.
4) Z-Bo - I have a streak of thinking you're scum lol. Fortunately the hammer cleared your scumminess imo
5) Marv - Lol. No chance. Hapas case was bulletproof (or pretty damn close)
6) Austin - I really was on you in the qt because it seemed like your posts really weren't accomplishing anything d1/d2. I must be very wrong cuz everyone saw you as townie :/
Can anyone help me out with Austin on why he was townie? Example posts and such?
7) Iamp -
debears
10-23-2012
09:21 PM ET (US)
lol yeah. I'm still wanting to try the bus scum partners 1 and 2 and then solo to victory lol.
and look at the word choice by iamp. Uses know instead of no.......weird. breadcrumb to parity cop????
Was that an intentional breadcrumb?
8) Keir - Ya i definitely misread that post lol....whoops
9) I had a lot of trouble making town reads this game. Almost everyone was doing scummy things in my eyes. Guess that's not necessarily bad, but it isn't good. I got way confused at the end
Here was the last list I posted, scummy to townie
Draz (saw blue or mafia pretty equally likely)
marvellosity
austin
z-boson (hammer vote is either town or ballsy scum. And he did get in a shit flinging fest)
Keirathi
iamperfection (never really saw as scummy :/)
Hapahauli
DarthPunk
AND MOST IMPORTANT ANSWER THIS
debears
10-24-2012
12:39 AM ET (US)
btw is this "S-Class" label referencing Yu Yu Hakusho??
time for bed....this post was way longer than I thought it would be
Drazak's Slip
There's a series of small indicators, and then some bigger ones.
Small stuffOn October 24 2012 09:40 drazak wrote:
Ok, I'm here, going to be posting a bunch tonight, I had students to tutor that told me monday they had a test wednesday, and as my laptop isn't working (see earlier post) I couldn't really post for bed, and I was too tired to sit up at my pc after class and tutoring and any work things I've dealt with lately.
So scum didn't get a kill last night, correct? That means we have to have a medic yeah? That means we have either a Boxer or a parity cop. I saw there were some accusations against me because of how I've beem posting, and my lack of posting, my bad, I was even in a hurry this morning because I slept in. Just caught up on the thread so some things might be obvious, ask me questions while I figure out who to ask questions and what about.
On October 24 2012 09:53 drazak wrote:
Wow, that post, I skimmed it before, but reading it again,I'm really starting to believe it, it's pretty comprehensive and those signs are pretty exact. I think if we lynch marv and he's scum, whomever the medic is has to save hapa because that wouldn't be a bus, but if marv isn't scum, maybe lynch hapa the next day?
On October 24 2012 10:18 drazak wrote:
I mean, if we're wrong, and hapa's read is wrong, then shit, mislynch, hope doc makes a good save, hope parity cop is alive or boxer knows when to claim, and then go after hapa as long as there's no good evidence to his defense. Marv hasn't adequately defended himself by anyone's means as far as I'm concerned, why are you so defensive of him DP?
shows focus on blue roles, esp. medic.
But the conversation with DP was the big kicker.On October 24 2012 10:45 drazak wrote:
I'm reading the thread DP, but I don't get how his connection makes sense, if I'm scum because of those posts, but they're the same kinds of posts that I make in town games, how am I scum this game? None of that even makes sense, which is why I don't understand. If that's not enough reason to think I'm town, I'm not sure what else I have to do, this is a small game, but I have town reads on Hapa and DP for how agressive hapa has been, and how willing to look at different players and play reactionarily that he's been. I also have a pretty good town read on austin because of how he's been playing, also the fac that nobody was lynched last night. while it may be WIFOM, if I was mafia I'd probably have lynched Austin last night, someone probably saved him (or maybe hapa or DP, but if I were a medic, austin would probably be my #1 save)
On October 24 2012 10:52 DarthPunk wrote:
SNIPPED
Really. So mafia tried to kill austin and someone saved him? where is the basis IN THE THREAD for that 'assumption' BECAUSE I SURE AS HELL CAN'T FIND IT. Why is talking about that even relevant. Speculating on the night kills shows a (ty BH) Night oriented mind set.
On October 24 2012 10:56 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 10:54 drazak wrote:
It does? I've never thought about it that way. As someone who's played siginificantly more irl mafia than forum mafia, speculating about NKs is pretty much half of your day logic. Who kills who, who knows who is a good player, etc. That's just how I think still, not sure if anyone else plays much IRL mafia. Where in the thread is there any information at all to draw the conclusion that mafia targeted Austin?
Right here is where things are starting to turn. All this speculation about me being hit and saved by the medic, him having a big town read on me, and DP's asking where there's any information in thread to justify that assumption. There's not, but drazak is not the only explanation for him having knowledge beyond the thread.
On October 24 2012 10:58 DarthPunk wrote:
Hint: There isn't any. It is pointless speculation. 1 person knows who saved him. and that is the medic.
On October 24 2012 11:00 DarthPunk wrote:
Was that thing about the night kills a crumb drazak?
On October 24 2012 11:00 drazak wrote:
Austin was being a really good town, which is why I have a strong town read on him, his analysis is strong, he posts a lot, he seems to read significantly better than I am tonight, it's just speculation though. I mean, I pretty much clearly said that it was speculation, that's how I play.
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Can anyone help me out with Austin on why he was townie? Example posts and such?
That's one that other players will have to answer.
In general, I felt like I was trying to scumhunt, participating, making logical reads (Things like DP early, Z-BosoN's hammer, looking through people who interacted with DP early, etc.). I tend to be overly setup speculative, what you found fluffy in obs, but...I'd like to believe I toned it down somewhat this game. Most posts that I had concerning setup, or wanting to lynch, or anything like that SHOULD have had a townie mindset behind them - especially things like wanting to lynch. I was hoping all other townies had that mindset, wanted to get out of D1, and so I felt confident in posting "Let's kill someone even if we can't be sure." In my head, posting something that felt slightly anti-town but that we probably all thought was a very townie thing to do? Unsure if others read it that way.
btw is this "S-Class" label referencing Yu Yu Hakusho??
Probably SC2. S-Class is the top tier of pro, basically. Unsure where it originated from, but I imagine it's from some older system or just a cultural thing, and not derived from either SC2 or YYH.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 26 2012 15:29 debears wrote:
AND MOST IMPORTANT ANSWER THIS
debears
10-24-2012
12:39 AM ET (US)
btw is this "S-Class" label referencing Yu Yu Hakusho??
I have no idea what you're talking about, but certainly when I was referencing it I was referring to GSL Code S
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Did I really waste my 6000th post on that -.-
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On October 26 2012 22:47 marvellosity wrote:
Did I really waste my 6000th post on that -.-
Nice.
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On October 26 2012 15:29 debears wrote:
7) Iamp -
debears
10-23-2012
09:21 PM ET (US)
lol yeah. I'm still wanting to try the bus scum partners 1 and 2 and then solo to victory lol.
and look at the word choice by iamp. Uses know instead of no.......weird. breadcrumb to parity cop????
Was that an intentional breadcrumb?
9) I had a lot of trouble making town reads this game. Almost everyone was doing scummy things in my eyes. Guess that's not necessarily bad, but it isn't good. I got way confused at the end
Here was the last list I posted, scummy to townie
Draz (saw blue or mafia pretty equally likely)
marvellosity
austin
z-boson (hammer vote is either town or ballsy scum. And he did get in a shit flinging fest)
Keirathi
iamperfection (never really saw as scummy :/)
Hapahauli
DarthPunk
See you got the story i was trying to write.
but know that wasn't intentional
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Ah. and yeah in Yu Yu hakusho S-class demons were the highest. Was curious.
And since someone referred to marv as an s-class townie, I thought it might be.
On October 26 2012 22:47 marvellosity wrote:
Did I really waste my 6000th post on that -.-
Mwahahahahahah. evil plan successful
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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EPT
