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On October 18 2012 21:29 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote:On October 18 2012 20:20 Kreb wrote:On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote:
Kreb, if you'd have lynched VE all over again, then you've learnt nothing from this game. Go back and look at what you did wrong.
You realize thats not helping me, right? Without meaning to be rude, your own attitude isn't helping you. You just said, basically, "I committed this horrendous, game-losing mistake, but... yay! I'd do it again!" Which is silly. VE didn't play perfectly, but you went tunnel-tastic on him, and one of the roots of it was you WIFOMing on my actions. You were told by numerous players that using anything I did/said is an exercise in futility, as skilled scum players don't leave obvious tracks, and you can see this now. Again much as VE didn't play perfectly, there were far scummier players in the thread than VE. Both slOosh and ShiaoPi literally had no town features about their play. A couple of players made strong cases on DP (I believe relating to his kush flip flops etc?) as well as his large amount of implied knowledge about KP.You're not stupid by any means, and if you'd taken a step back from your VE case (when plenty of people told you to do so), you are quite capable of seeing these other things for yourself. The cases were not that strong. Not enough to get me lynched anyway.
Disagree. The reason you were never pushed for a lynch wasn't the strength of the case, but the people doing the pushing. You have to have the ability to out argue / push whoever is the dominant "thread leader" at the time. Pushing a lynch by me or VE was retardedly hard for anyone as both of us can just shut a player down with massive posts / convincing thread our case is better.
Also, given we had 3 days of blue checks to lynch from near no one was seriously talking cases as the game seemed that it was handed to us on a silver platter.
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On October 18 2012 23:10 ShiaoPi wrote:
Hmmm I think it seemed rather obvious that I was scum, I did not even really try to make sense/get thread presence, also you really should have latched onto iamps comment on GSL 2 mini.
I think in regards to meta of me, just take a look at BH's case against me, I was scared as fuck as I read it, because it was like 99% correct :D
Yeah I should've add Coag to the troll list.
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On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote:
slOosh - not sure why you're even asking. Why would you need to fuck with your town meta to play scum? It makes no sense. You were just *so* goddamn far off your town meta, and actually you're a good enough / clever enough dude for this not to be the case. Post more, push more cases, etc. - it's very simple...
No, I'm asking what does that look like? Am I striving to play like town that is having a really bad game (all wrong reads etc.)? Am I expecting to get caught in the early - midgame and center my play around that? Like for this quote by Incognito from general mafia guide
On January 09 2012 15:49 Incognito wrote:
As mafia, you may often see that townies who are generally accepted as “pro-town” early in the game can hold a disproportional influence over the town. You might think to yourself, “We need to prevent that from happening, or at least, become that person”. The first part of that statement is correct; the second is not.
Although the temptation of appearing to be the most “pro-town” player may be great, you often cannot hold this status for long enough as mafia for it to truly benefit you. Town players who gain the “pro-town” status usually are able to hold onto it because their motives are consistent throughout the game. However, as a mafia, the longer the game goes, the harder it will be to keep your story straight, and the easier it will be for you to lose your status.
That's basically all my town games (majority of games I'm shot D1) - if it is my meta to always become that person, and it's disadvantageous to become that person as mafia, what do I do?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 19 2012 02:44 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote:
slOosh - not sure why you're even asking. Why would you need to fuck with your town meta to play scum? It makes no sense. You were just *so* goddamn far off your town meta, and actually you're a good enough / clever enough dude for this not to be the case. Post more, push more cases, etc. - it's very simple...
No, I'm asking what does that look like? Am I striving to play like town that is having a really bad game (all wrong reads etc.)? Am I expecting to get caught in the early - midgame and center my play around that? Like for this quote by Incognito from general mafia guide Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 15:49 Incognito wrote:
As mafia, you may often see that townies who are generally accepted as “pro-town” early in the game can hold a disproportional influence over the town. You might think to yourself, “We need to prevent that from happening, or at least, become that person”. The first part of that statement is correct; the second is not.
Although the temptation of appearing to be the most “pro-town” player may be great, you often cannot hold this status for long enough as mafia for it to truly benefit you. Town players who gain the “pro-town” status usually are able to hold onto it because their motives are consistent throughout the game. However, as a mafia, the longer the game goes, the harder it will be to keep your story straight, and the easier it will be for you to lose your status.
That's basically all my town games (majority of games I'm shot D1) - if it is my meta to always become that person, and it's disadvantageous to become that person as mafia, what do I do?
It's disadvantageous to become that person as mafia if you cannot keep your story straight. In LV I was considered townie town town, and I managed to maintain that facade for 8 (!) cycles for the win.
Ugh, it's kinda hard to explain for you, because that was also before I acquired your knack of being NKed early, but this also means I should be able to help you here :x Like, I try to emulate my town play as much as I can, but I just make tiny little adjustments; like I might not pursue a scumread who is my team-mate quite as aggressively as I might otherwise, or perhaps I'll bring up a candidate at just a slightly different time from when I normally might to try to achieve something in-thread. Or perhaps there's a body of evidence on someone and you take one conclusion that looks logical, even though as town you may have reached another, also logical conclusion. Things like that that can't really be caught externally (i.e. by town) but are very subtly pushing your agenda.
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On October 19 2012 02:18 BroodKingEXE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 23:10 ShiaoPi wrote:
Hmmm I think it seemed rather obvious that I was scum, I did not even really try to make sense/get thread presence, also you really should have latched onto iamps comment on GSL 2 mini.
I think in regards to meta of me, just take a look at BH's case against me, I was scared as fuck as I read it, because it was like 99% correct :D Yeah I should've add Coag to the troll list.
wat?
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Sloosh
The point of that statement from incognito doesn't seem to mean that you should try to not become a town leader. Instead, it means that you shouldn't be trying your heart out to become a town leader.
In other words, don't make your whole goal becoming town leader when you're mafia. Be a (fake) contributor, and if you become the leader, it's fine. If it fits your town meta, it's a bonus for your mafia play if you become the leader.
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Keeping your story straight seems to be the standard problem when you're active scum, I don't how that's a bigger problem just because you become an influential and accepted townie.
It's difficult to pull off, but if you're active/pro-town as town you have to learn how to be active/"pro-town" as scum. Or change your town game, but that's less fun :p
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Wrong, It's not difficult. People just neglect to put effort into not being scumbusted.
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I think it's more to do with the tangible sense of loss deaths bring as sum. It's not an enjoyable thing to die as any alignment - but as scum there is a more potent sense of "I failed my team" than as town, and most people dislike playing scum as a result...or at the very least post poorer results.
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On October 19 2012 03:10 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 02:44 slOosh wrote:On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote:
slOosh - not sure why you're even asking. Why would you need to fuck with your town meta to play scum? It makes no sense. You were just *so* goddamn far off your town meta, and actually you're a good enough / clever enough dude for this not to be the case. Post more, push more cases, etc. - it's very simple...
No, I'm asking what does that look like? Am I striving to play like town that is having a really bad game (all wrong reads etc.)? Am I expecting to get caught in the early - midgame and center my play around that? Like for this quote by Incognito from general mafia guide On January 09 2012 15:49 Incognito wrote:
As mafia, you may often see that townies who are generally accepted as “pro-town” early in the game can hold a disproportional influence over the town. You might think to yourself, “We need to prevent that from happening, or at least, become that person”. The first part of that statement is correct; the second is not.
Although the temptation of appearing to be the most “pro-town” player may be great, you often cannot hold this status for long enough as mafia for it to truly benefit you. Town players who gain the “pro-town” status usually are able to hold onto it because their motives are consistent throughout the game. However, as a mafia, the longer the game goes, the harder it will be to keep your story straight, and the easier it will be for you to lose your status.
That's basically all my town games (majority of games I'm shot D1) - if it is my meta to always become that person, and it's disadvantageous to become that person as mafia, what do I do? It's disadvantageous to become that person as mafia if you cannot keep your story straight. In LV I was considered townie town town, and I managed to maintain that facade for 8 (!) cycles for the win. Ugh, it's kinda hard to explain for you, because that was also before I acquired your knack of being NKed early, but this also means I should be able to help you here :x Like, I try to emulate my town play as much as I can, but I just make tiny little adjustments; like I might not pursue a scumread who is my team-mate quite as aggressively as I might otherwise, or perhaps I'll bring up a candidate at just a slightly different time from when I normally might to try to achieve something in-thread. Or perhaps there's a body of evidence on someone and you take one conclusion that looks logical, even though as town you may have reached another, also logical conclusion. Things like that that can't really be caught externally (i.e. by town) but are very subtly pushing your agenda.
Yea this is really helpful. I think it might just be a practice thing for me then.
What's your view on bussing? Like for Node D1 I felt it was stupid to let him just die, which is in a sense sacrificing credibility for pushing your agenda with more force. As a "vet" or "usually dead by N3 or something is up" player, do you always play to survive to endgame, or do you actively make the most of these scum-agenda purchases to your eventual lynch?
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On October 19 2012 03:47 VisceraEyes wrote:
I think it's more to do with the tangible sense of loss deaths bring as sum. It's not an enjoyable thing to die as any alignment - but as scum there is a more potent sense of "I failed my team" than as town, and most people dislike playing scum as a result...or at the very least post poorer results.
It's not also that, but underperforming as scum and getting stressed about it and not enjoying it comes because there's no sense of "reward" when playing as scum, you just survive or fail (if you die/get caught).
That feeling of reward you get as town when killing scum just makes it more "sweet" than when playing scum.
For instance, what exact "reward" do you get as scum even if you win? Most of the time when you win everybody's like "lol this town sucked", and you start thinking that as well. You win as scum because other players played bad, so you don't feel any sense of achievement at all, you just "passed a test" and that's it.
Granted there are exceptions, like some specific instances in the game where you, as scum, may set your mind in a particular objective and strive to get it, in which case you do get a reward if you obtain it. But if your only objective in the game is survival and you don't set goals every once and then you don't get that feeling at all basically.
"Playing as scum" isn't really playing as much as it is making it possible other people (townies) play the game, at least in the "have a goal you want to achieve and gain satisfaction from pursuing and obtaining it" sense of the phrase.
That's basically the reason I don't like playing as scum unless it's a multi-faction game where I can play the same "find scum" game as town (like in Liar Game, which was fun as hell).
All my scum D1s are basically "oh fuck I'm scum again and have to work my ass off to survive the whole game, meh" and get bored/frustrated/stressed, at least until something happens in-game that captures my attention and makes me more immersed in the game (if that ever happens).
For instance I had that "boring" attitude all over Bureaucracy mafia. The only time I got "entertained" was when I basically said "fuck it, I'm "confirmed scum" now, but let's see if I can get people to lynch austin" the day I got lynched and became invested in that just to see if it could happen (again, I set a specific objective/goal and gained satisfaction trying to achieve it).
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I do think "being the most pro-town motherfucker" is one of those "goals" I set myself when I'm scum....since at least it's something that keeps me entertained while playing...and if I can achieve it it feels awesome as fuck (you can basically control whatever you want) and you can almost get high off it 
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Oh yeah kind of off-topic...."GG scum"; "bad town"....ehmm...:"great job guy that caught most of scum".
....I dunno what to say, I haven't really read this game >_>
I only remember VE claiming and people wanting to lynch him so that caught my attention
Oh yeah and also all the confirmed-scum trolling thing, which was pretty funny....
...I don't really know how marv/Hapa were "confirmed scum" though....?
I mean, the paramedics claimed they targeted them and died.....which means scum couldn't possibly have used their KP on the paramedics with a town marv/Hapa?
I didn't really get that part.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 19 2012 05:14 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 03:10 marvellosity wrote:On October 19 2012 02:44 slOosh wrote:On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote:
slOosh - not sure why you're even asking. Why would you need to fuck with your town meta to play scum? It makes no sense. You were just *so* goddamn far off your town meta, and actually you're a good enough / clever enough dude for this not to be the case. Post more, push more cases, etc. - it's very simple...
No, I'm asking what does that look like? Am I striving to play like town that is having a really bad game (all wrong reads etc.)? Am I expecting to get caught in the early - midgame and center my play around that? Like for this quote by Incognito from general mafia guide On January 09 2012 15:49 Incognito wrote:
As mafia, you may often see that townies who are generally accepted as “pro-town” early in the game can hold a disproportional influence over the town. You might think to yourself, “We need to prevent that from happening, or at least, become that person”. The first part of that statement is correct; the second is not.
Although the temptation of appearing to be the most “pro-town” player may be great, you often cannot hold this status for long enough as mafia for it to truly benefit you. Town players who gain the “pro-town” status usually are able to hold onto it because their motives are consistent throughout the game. However, as a mafia, the longer the game goes, the harder it will be to keep your story straight, and the easier it will be for you to lose your status.
That's basically all my town games (majority of games I'm shot D1) - if it is my meta to always become that person, and it's disadvantageous to become that person as mafia, what do I do? It's disadvantageous to become that person as mafia if you cannot keep your story straight. In LV I was considered townie town town, and I managed to maintain that facade for 8 (!) cycles for the win. Ugh, it's kinda hard to explain for you, because that was also before I acquired your knack of being NKed early, but this also means I should be able to help you here :x Like, I try to emulate my town play as much as I can, but I just make tiny little adjustments; like I might not pursue a scumread who is my team-mate quite as aggressively as I might otherwise, or perhaps I'll bring up a candidate at just a slightly different time from when I normally might to try to achieve something in-thread. Or perhaps there's a body of evidence on someone and you take one conclusion that looks logical, even though as town you may have reached another, also logical conclusion. Things like that that can't really be caught externally (i.e. by town) but are very subtly pushing your agenda. Yea this is really helpful. I think it might just be a practice thing for me then. What's your view on bussing? Like for Node D1 I felt it was stupid to let him just die, which is in a sense sacrificing credibility for pushing your agenda with more force. As a "vet" or "usually dead by N3 or something is up" player, do you always play to survive to endgame, or do you actively make the most of these scum-agenda purchases to your eventual lynch?
I never intended for Node to die day 1. The wagon achieved more votes than I expected. I took the calculated risk of creating the wagon quickly and hoping it would be objected to by townies so it wouldn't go through (which is indeed what happened) but I was scared because I didn't expect so many votes on Node like that, which is why I was pooping myself a little in scumQT.
With your survive to endgame question: I just don't know at the moment. That's previously how I played, and successfully... but I feel it's getting harder to justify it when it occurs. When this game started I had planned to try a different style - ensure mislynches, and hope I'd done enough damage to town by day 4-5 that when I died the game was already won. Obviously I died much earlier, so meh. Generally speaking, though, towns in general are actually pretty resistant to lynching people because they're still alive - look at how little support a BC lynch garnered, even though he's a total vet and dies Night 1 with extreme regularity as well. So I believe playing the long-game is still quite possible.
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Try motivating yourself with. Sucess if I can lead a townie mislynch without making myself look bad in the process.
Bureaucracy Mafia was simply hell to play for scum and can't be compared with normal mafia.
edit: Mafia couldn't push scumreads because they could be our teammates. Vice versa any townie pushing a scumread was 90% town.
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paramedic = bad role. no downside. Either you protect a strong town player or kill a strong scum player.
scum players = pretty obviously scum. read what marv said, it nails it. you all should have known DP based on my play alone, haha.
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regarding sloosh's point:
if mafia is always 1/4 the player pool
and
I have a pure town meta
and
I can make an obvious scum meta
then
aren't I not guaranteed town for all my town games, and therefore most likely to win most of the games I play?
This is a thing I struggle with. I don't want to have to play worse as town in order to disguise my scum play. Because playing with as much effort as I give to town as scum simply isn't possible.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 19 2012 06:16 talismania wrote:
regarding sloosh's point:
if mafia is always 1/4 the player pool
and
I have a pure town meta
and
I can make an obvious scum meta
then
aren't I not guaranteed town for all my town games, and therefore most likely to win most of the games I play?
This is a thing I struggle with. I don't want to have to play worse as town in order to disguise my scum play. Because playing with as much effort as I give to town as scum simply isn't possible.
none of this makes any logical sense. just because you're town more often doesn't mean you win more often. Basically you're just deficient as a player :/ But players like sandroba, palmar, foolishness have similar deficiencies, so *shrug*
Just because you're clearly town as town, doesn't mean you win...
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On October 19 2012 06:16 talismania wrote:
This is a thing I struggle with. I don't want to have to play worse as town in order to disguise my scum play. Because playing with as much effort as I give to town as scum simply isn't possible.
Maybe it is, but just less natural. I mean I would think untangling a problem / riddle is more natural (not necessarily easier) than obfuscating it.
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Paramedics doesn't kill a strong scumplayer. They kill themselves. And the only way to actually inform the town they need to hint what they are doing. Which even if subtle is detectable my mafia. And if they manage to out a scum they don't kill the players but town still need to use the lynch and all the consequences this brings.
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Do you guys have any tips in regard to staying consistent? I end up checking my filter to see what I said and make sure I align like that, but I don't like that. Is it just practicing in a way to "unsee" scum as scum and town as town?
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EPT
