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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 18 2012 20:20 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote:
Kreb, if you'd have lynched VE all over again, then you've learnt nothing from this game. Go back and look at what you did wrong.
You realize thats not helping me, right?
Without meaning to be rude, your own attitude isn't helping you. You just said, basically, "I committed this horrendous, game-losing mistake, but... yay! I'd do it again!" Which is silly.
VE didn't play perfectly, but you went tunnel-tastic on him, and one of the roots of it was you WIFOMing on my actions. You were told by numerous players that using anything I did/said is an exercise in futility, as skilled scum players don't leave obvious tracks, and you can see this now.
Again much as VE didn't play perfectly, there were far scummier players in the thread than VE. Both slOosh and ShiaoPi literally had no town features about their play. A couple of players made strong cases on DP (I believe relating to his kush flip flops etc?) as well as his large amount of implied knowledge about KP.
You're not stupid by any means, and if you'd taken a step back from your VE case (when plenty of people told you to do so), you are quite capable of seeing these other things for yourself.
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On October 18 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 20:20 Kreb wrote:On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote:
Kreb, if you'd have lynched VE all over again, then you've learnt nothing from this game. Go back and look at what you did wrong.
You realize thats not helping me, right? Without meaning to be rude, your own attitude isn't helping you. You just said, basically, "I committed this horrendous, game-losing mistake, but... yay! I'd do it again!" Which is silly. VE didn't play perfectly, but you went tunnel-tastic on him, and one of the roots of it was you WIFOMing on my actions. You were told by numerous players that using anything I did/said is an exercise in futility, as skilled scum players don't leave obvious tracks, and you can see this now. Again much as VE didn't play perfectly, there were far scummier players in the thread than VE. Both slOosh and ShiaoPi literally had no town features about their play. A couple of players made strong cases on DP (I believe relating to his kush flip flops etc?) as well as his large amount of implied knowledge about KP. You're not stupid by any means, and if you'd taken a step back from your VE case (when plenty of people told you to do so), you are quite capable of seeing these other things for yourself.
Well thats more helpful at least. The only thing I have to say about that is that last game I played I was totally onto the people playing without town features with the reasoning that "If they were town they would surely not play this bad/anti-town". You might remember it if you obsed it. What happened? Both my to pscum reads for that reason were both town. So I started to see lack of any features as exactly that, lack of anything. You could say I started to value active scummyness way higher than passive scummyness. Which initially had me all null on sloosh, shiao and mattchew and I only started to suspect that trio when the field was thinning out and most other players remaining were more or less townish. I never really suspected any of them due to their actions...... because there were no actions.
The Mattchew mislynch also helped move me in that direction of reasoning. I considered both Shiao and Matt to be very much a shots in the dark, Sloosh somewhat less but still risky. And when one shot in the dark already failed (Matt) I really didnt feel like giving it a second try at mylo.
But would you suggest always lynching players lacking of town (or any) features? If so, I'll definitely take it into account.
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Also fuck we shoulda lynched BC like I said, that woulda confirmed me so VE didn't have to waste check and it woulda confirmed mattchew. Then we coulda went to lynching sloosh and shiapi
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On October 18 2012 21:23 Mementoss wrote:
Also fuck we shoulda lynched BC like I said, that woulda confirmed me so VE didn't have to waste check and it woulda confirmed mattchew. Then we coulda went to lynching sloosh and shiapi
I wouldve revealed myself and pretty much confirmed him as Lucky Citizen in that case, so I dont think that would have happened. I was pretty close to revealing it at one point.
Which is why I really wanna know how he knew of my role....
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 18 2012 21:16 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote:On October 18 2012 20:20 Kreb wrote:On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote:
Kreb, if you'd have lynched VE all over again, then you've learnt nothing from this game. Go back and look at what you did wrong.
You realize thats not helping me, right? Without meaning to be rude, your own attitude isn't helping you. You just said, basically, "I committed this horrendous, game-losing mistake, but... yay! I'd do it again!" Which is silly. VE didn't play perfectly, but you went tunnel-tastic on him, and one of the roots of it was you WIFOMing on my actions. You were told by numerous players that using anything I did/said is an exercise in futility, as skilled scum players don't leave obvious tracks, and you can see this now. Again much as VE didn't play perfectly, there were far scummier players in the thread than VE. Both slOosh and ShiaoPi literally had no town features about their play. A couple of players made strong cases on DP (I believe relating to his kush flip flops etc?) as well as his large amount of implied knowledge about KP. You're not stupid by any means, and if you'd taken a step back from your VE case (when plenty of people told you to do so), you are quite capable of seeing these other things for yourself. Well thats more helpful at least. The only thing I have to say about that is that last game I played I was totally onto the people playing without town features with the reasoning that "If they were town they would surely not play this bad/anti-town". You might remember it if you obsed it. What happened? Both my to pscum reads for that reason were both town. So I started to see lack of any features as exactly that, lack of anything. Which initially had me all null on sloosh, shiao and mattchew and I only started to suspect that trio when the field was thinning out and most other players remaining were more or less townish. I never really suspected any of them due to their actions...... because there were no actions. Would you suggest always lynching players lacking of town (or any) features? If so, I'll definitely take it into account.
One of the hardest things in mafia is distinguishing between lazy/absent/bad town and scum, who have similar features.
Honestly, Matt *could* have been scum. But there were things about his brazen attitude that could have tipped you off otherwise.
ShiaoPi - iamperfection made a really *excellent* point, sadly ignored by most of the thread, that in an almost concurrent game as town, he repeatedly shouted at town for lack of activity. This should be lynchable by itself! The nature of his defences, when he appeared, how he appeared to jump all over DP. All scummy.
slOosh - if we contrast with Matt, slOosh pretended to make contributions, without ever actually doing so. Matt was just like "yeah i'm doing jack shit." slOosh popped in sometimes, made some conversation, maybe once made a case on a townie, and then left again. This is scummy in itself, but when compared to his usual meta (leader, helpful, strong) it's absolutely damning.
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On October 18 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 20:20 Kreb wrote:On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote:
Kreb, if you'd have lynched VE all over again, then you've learnt nothing from this game. Go back and look at what you did wrong.
You realize thats not helping me, right? Without meaning to be rude, your own attitude isn't helping you. You just said, basically, "I committed this horrendous, game-losing mistake, but... yay! I'd do it again!" Which is silly. VE didn't play perfectly, but you went tunnel-tastic on him, and one of the roots of it was you WIFOMing on my actions. You were told by numerous players that using anything I did/said is an exercise in futility, as skilled scum players don't leave obvious tracks, and you can see this now. Again much as VE didn't play perfectly, there were far scummier players in the thread than VE. Both slOosh and ShiaoPi literally had no town features about their play. A couple of players made strong cases on DP (I believe relating to his kush flip flops etc?) as well as his large amount of implied knowledge about KP.You're not stupid by any means, and if you'd taken a step back from your VE case (when plenty of people told you to do so), you are quite capable of seeing these other things for yourself.
The cases were not that strong. Not enough to get me lynched anyway.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
The cases should have been strong enough to get you lynched, but town were busy derping elsewhere.
edit: DP, you definitely played the best, and as town I'd have lynched you only after lynching the other two, but the cases + your implied knowledge (you went crazy in scumQT at your own slip remember) were lynchable as well.
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On October 18 2012 21:30 marvellosity wrote:
The cases should have been strong enough to get you lynched, but town were busy derping elsewhere.
Well you know you aren't going to be lynched when you asked to be bussed hard and proceed to do so and then you get like 2 votes and one is your own team mate....
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On October 18 2012 21:30 marvellosity wrote:
The cases should have been strong enough to get you lynched, but town were busy derping elsewhere.
edit: DP, you definitely played the best, and as town I'd have lynched you only after lynching the other two, but the cases + your implied knowledge (you went crazy in scumQT at your own slip remember) were lynchable as well.
Don't you mean iffy? I thought I had slipped worse than I did. I was also frustrated because sloosh and shiao were really absent at that stage and I felt I had to carry them. But the slip wasn't as bad as I thought and they both picked up their activity. sloosh in particular.
As to flip flopping on kush. That is the opposite of what a scum would do. Which is why I did it. Who in their right mind would try and derail a quiet town lynch as scum. The scummy thing was trying to lynch Z-Boson by accusing him of setting up a mislynch off the back of a kush green flip when that is exactly what I was doing to him.
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On October 18 2012 21:27 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 21:16 Kreb wrote:On October 18 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote:On October 18 2012 20:20 Kreb wrote:On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote:
Kreb, if you'd have lynched VE all over again, then you've learnt nothing from this game. Go back and look at what you did wrong.
You realize thats not helping me, right? Without meaning to be rude, your own attitude isn't helping you. You just said, basically, "I committed this horrendous, game-losing mistake, but... yay! I'd do it again!" Which is silly. VE didn't play perfectly, but you went tunnel-tastic on him, and one of the roots of it was you WIFOMing on my actions. You were told by numerous players that using anything I did/said is an exercise in futility, as skilled scum players don't leave obvious tracks, and you can see this now. Again much as VE didn't play perfectly, there were far scummier players in the thread than VE. Both slOosh and ShiaoPi literally had no town features about their play. A couple of players made strong cases on DP (I believe relating to his kush flip flops etc?) as well as his large amount of implied knowledge about KP. You're not stupid by any means, and if you'd taken a step back from your VE case (when plenty of people told you to do so), you are quite capable of seeing these other things for yourself. Well thats more helpful at least. The only thing I have to say about that is that last game I played I was totally onto the people playing without town features with the reasoning that "If they were town they would surely not play this bad/anti-town". You might remember it if you obsed it. What happened? Both my to pscum reads for that reason were both town. So I started to see lack of any features as exactly that, lack of anything. Which initially had me all null on sloosh, shiao and mattchew and I only started to suspect that trio when the field was thinning out and most other players remaining were more or less townish. I never really suspected any of them due to their actions...... because there were no actions. Would you suggest always lynching players lacking of town (or any) features? If so, I'll definitely take it into account. One of the hardest things in mafia is distinguishing between lazy/absent/bad town and scum, who have similar features. Honestly, Matt *could* have been scum. But there were things about his brazen attitude that could have tipped you off otherwise. ShiaoPi - iamperfection made a really *excellent* point, sadly ignored by most of the thread, that in an almost concurrent game as town, he repeatedly shouted at town for lack of activity. This should be lynchable by itself! The nature of his defences, when he appeared, how he appeared to jump all over DP. All scummy. slOosh - if we contrast with Matt, slOosh pretended to make contributions, without ever actually doing so. Matt was just like "yeah i'm doing jack shit." slOosh popped in sometimes, made some conversation, maybe once made a case on a townie, and then left again. This is scummy in itself, but when compared to his usual meta (leader, helpful, strong) it's absolutely damning.
I gues you have a point about Shiao, but I dont have that meta knowledge really. Last game he was quite inactive until only like 5-6ppl remained too so I didnt consider him to be too far off compared to what I saw him as town.
Sloosh I wouldve found it very hard to lynch for that reason though. There were practically identical cases on Sloosh, VE, BC, Mattchew. And probably to a lesser extent on one or two more. "Too off their meta, much less helpful than usual". I dont think anyone couldve confidently single out Sloosh's scummyness compared to the others. Especially if you dont have any meta knowledge about them yourself.
But maybe I should be harder on non-contributors. Its probably gonna lead to quite a few policy-mislycnhes, but in the end maybe its worth it.
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@ kreb. just hope that vig's shoot the inactives. or they get modkilled. To be honest mattchew should have been modkilled but he was integral to the third parties wincon.
At the end of every game you are going to experience similar things though. It is devolution of the thread. Scum weed out all the strong and active players and you are left with those who don't really care about the game for one reason or another. My last two scum games people have blamed town for being bad etc. When scum win. But the plan as scum is for all those good players to be gone by that point.
So I guess what I am saying is the state of endgame towns are inevitable. Unless everyone is really super active every single game.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On October 18 2012 21:37 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 21:27 marvellosity wrote:On October 18 2012 21:16 Kreb wrote:On October 18 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote:On October 18 2012 20:20 Kreb wrote:On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote:
Kreb, if you'd have lynched VE all over again, then you've learnt nothing from this game. Go back and look at what you did wrong.
You realize thats not helping me, right? Without meaning to be rude, your own attitude isn't helping you. You just said, basically, "I committed this horrendous, game-losing mistake, but... yay! I'd do it again!" Which is silly. VE didn't play perfectly, but you went tunnel-tastic on him, and one of the roots of it was you WIFOMing on my actions. You were told by numerous players that using anything I did/said is an exercise in futility, as skilled scum players don't leave obvious tracks, and you can see this now. Again much as VE didn't play perfectly, there were far scummier players in the thread than VE. Both slOosh and ShiaoPi literally had no town features about their play. A couple of players made strong cases on DP (I believe relating to his kush flip flops etc?) as well as his large amount of implied knowledge about KP. You're not stupid by any means, and if you'd taken a step back from your VE case (when plenty of people told you to do so), you are quite capable of seeing these other things for yourself. Well thats more helpful at least. The only thing I have to say about that is that last game I played I was totally onto the people playing without town features with the reasoning that "If they were town they would surely not play this bad/anti-town". You might remember it if you obsed it. What happened? Both my to pscum reads for that reason were both town. So I started to see lack of any features as exactly that, lack of anything. Which initially had me all null on sloosh, shiao and mattchew and I only started to suspect that trio when the field was thinning out and most other players remaining were more or less townish. I never really suspected any of them due to their actions...... because there were no actions. Would you suggest always lynching players lacking of town (or any) features? If so, I'll definitely take it into account. One of the hardest things in mafia is distinguishing between lazy/absent/bad town and scum, who have similar features. Honestly, Matt *could* have been scum. But there were things about his brazen attitude that could have tipped you off otherwise. ShiaoPi - iamperfection made a really *excellent* point, sadly ignored by most of the thread, that in an almost concurrent game as town, he repeatedly shouted at town for lack of activity. This should be lynchable by itself! The nature of his defences, when he appeared, how he appeared to jump all over DP. All scummy. slOosh - if we contrast with Matt, slOosh pretended to make contributions, without ever actually doing so. Matt was just like "yeah i'm doing jack shit." slOosh popped in sometimes, made some conversation, maybe once made a case on a townie, and then left again. This is scummy in itself, but when compared to his usual meta (leader, helpful, strong) it's absolutely damning. I gues you have a point about Shiao, but I dont have that meta knowledge really. Last game he was quite inactive until only like 5-6ppl remained too so I didnt consider him to be too far off compared to what I saw him as town. Sloosh I wouldve found it very hard to lynch for that reason though. There were practically identical cases on Sloosh, VE, BC, Mattchew. And probably to a lesser extent on one or two more. "Too off their meta, much less helpful than usual". I dont think anyone couldve confidently single out Sloosh's scummyness compared to the others. Especially if you dont have any meta knowledge about them yourself. But maybe I should be harder on non-contributors. Its probably gonna lead to quite a few policy-mislycnhes, but in the end maybe its worth it.
Well, that's why it helps to look into people's meta a bit. If you read the XXX analysis, Foolishness, probably the strongest town player TL Mafia has seen, uses it extensively in his cases.
Look at Shiao and how he randomly came in the thread screaming at DP and then left again. What's similar about that to LVII?
VE was very, very clearly more invested in the game than either slOosh or Shiao. Just look at the length of his filter for one. Or re-read his filter with townie eyes, and at many points he was clearly interested in finding scum. Can you say the same for slOosh and Shiao? BC made it abundantly clear why slOosh was scum, and Blazing caught on to Shiao very early too.
BC played with classic 3rd party characteristics. He's a classic day 1 shot, so him being saved would not be surprising on Day 1. But when he was around he was making good contributions, while at the same time not really being invested in town. That was my genuine read when I was alive and was correct. It's also why BC outed my entire team before he left the game 
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On October 18 2012 21:37 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 21:27 marvellosity wrote:On October 18 2012 21:16 Kreb wrote:On October 18 2012 21:03 marvellosity wrote:On October 18 2012 20:20 Kreb wrote:On October 18 2012 19:23 marvellosity wrote:
Kreb, if you'd have lynched VE all over again, then you've learnt nothing from this game. Go back and look at what you did wrong.
You realize thats not helping me, right? Without meaning to be rude, your own attitude isn't helping you. You just said, basically, "I committed this horrendous, game-losing mistake, but... yay! I'd do it again!" Which is silly. VE didn't play perfectly, but you went tunnel-tastic on him, and one of the roots of it was you WIFOMing on my actions. You were told by numerous players that using anything I did/said is an exercise in futility, as skilled scum players don't leave obvious tracks, and you can see this now. Again much as VE didn't play perfectly, there were far scummier players in the thread than VE. Both slOosh and ShiaoPi literally had no town features about their play. A couple of players made strong cases on DP (I believe relating to his kush flip flops etc?) as well as his large amount of implied knowledge about KP. You're not stupid by any means, and if you'd taken a step back from your VE case (when plenty of people told you to do so), you are quite capable of seeing these other things for yourself. Well thats more helpful at least. The only thing I have to say about that is that last game I played I was totally onto the people playing without town features with the reasoning that "If they were town they would surely not play this bad/anti-town". You might remember it if you obsed it. What happened? Both my to pscum reads for that reason were both town. So I started to see lack of any features as exactly that, lack of anything. Which initially had me all null on sloosh, shiao and mattchew and I only started to suspect that trio when the field was thinning out and most other players remaining were more or less townish. I never really suspected any of them due to their actions...... because there were no actions. Would you suggest always lynching players lacking of town (or any) features? If so, I'll definitely take it into account. One of the hardest things in mafia is distinguishing between lazy/absent/bad town and scum, who have similar features. Honestly, Matt *could* have been scum. But there were things about his brazen attitude that could have tipped you off otherwise. ShiaoPi - iamperfection made a really *excellent* point, sadly ignored by most of the thread, that in an almost concurrent game as town, he repeatedly shouted at town for lack of activity. This should be lynchable by itself! The nature of his defences, when he appeared, how he appeared to jump all over DP. All scummy. slOosh - if we contrast with Matt, slOosh pretended to make contributions, without ever actually doing so. Matt was just like "yeah i'm doing jack shit." slOosh popped in sometimes, made some conversation, maybe once made a case on a townie, and then left again. This is scummy in itself, but when compared to his usual meta (leader, helpful, strong) it's absolutely damning. I gues you have a point about Shiao, but I dont have that meta knowledge really. Last game he was quite inactive until only like 5-6ppl remained too so I didnt consider him to be too far off compared to what I saw him as town. Sloosh I wouldve found it very hard to lynch for that reason though. There were practically identical cases on Sloosh, VE, BC, Mattchew. And probably to a lesser extent on one or two more. "Too off their meta, much less helpful than usual". I dont think anyone couldve confidently single out Sloosh's scummyness compared to the others. Especially if you dont have any meta knowledge about them yourself. But maybe I should be harder on non-contributors. Its probably gonna lead to quite a few policy-mislycnhes, but in the end maybe its worth it.
Meta's tough you have to look at a majority of their games, otherwise you get a lot of outliers. Shiao's last few games have been bad for his meta. LVI was bad play and LVII he was tracker. Their not the best indicators of town play, but LVII gives you the impression that he is at least not his townie self. But I only know that because Ive played games way back with Shiao as townie.
@Marv, do you think inactivity is a big indicator of scum players? I feel like quality of posting matters more, no?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
Hmmm I think it seemed rather obvious that I was scum, I did not even really try to make sense/get thread presence, also you really should have latched onto iamps comment on GSL 2 mini.
I think in regards to meta of me, just take a look at BH's case against me, I was scared as fuck as I read it, because it was like 99% correct :D
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
that's why i elaborated on the stuff surrounding the inactivity in my last couple of posts
you have to take stuff as a whole
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On October 18 2012 21:25 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 21:23 Mementoss wrote:
Also fuck we shoulda lynched BC like I said, that woulda confirmed me so VE didn't have to waste check and it woulda confirmed mattchew. Then we coulda went to lynching sloosh and shiapi I wouldve revealed myself and pretty much confirmed him as Lucky Citizen in that case, so I dont think that would have happened. I was pretty close to revealing it at one point. Which is why I really wanna know how he knew of my role....
Marvellosity and I both did actuallly.
When they removed the role of "veteran" from the game as it was the miller role and I looked over the list of remaining roles the only one that was left that could be a vet was lucky citizen. It was pure setup speculation. Just as I accurately realized arsonist was a mad hatter role as I was the third party role
Also, i have no idea how you guys believed I wanted VE dead after my exit game post where I say his role was confirmed and that he was likely town + giving you my scum reads.
My entire reasoning for the shit I did with VE was to tilt the thread and leave it confused to slip in a mattchew lynch. IE I had to do something to make sure people followed me on who I wanted to lynch to achieve my win condition. It is a shame paramedics played such a rampant role for the first few days of the game as I couldn't attempt my solo win because of it -_-
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
yes, I chose to appear as Lucky Citizen during Day 1, based on the assumption it was the veteran role and I would be able to make a play with it later on.
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no awesome vet play for your har har har
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
yes yes. go away
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EPT
