EPTTL Mafia LVII
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Shady Sands
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Shady Sands
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let's start things off now, I think sloosh is guilty of asking useless questions that don't help town scumhunt. FoS slOosh | ||
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Drawing from my experience in XXIV, I'm going to say that it's a little early for cases. I'll be watching the thread though. | ||
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On September 04 2012 08:08 Hapahauli wrote: What in particular about XXIV? Also, just because it's early for cases doesn't mean you have to resign yourself to "watching the thread." In XXIV I jumped on Solarsail on the basis of his first post. Turns out that not only was Solarsail town, it led (indirectly) to my mislynch and almost to his mislynch much further down the road. | ||
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Shady Sands
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On September 04 2012 08:20 slOosh wrote: Could you clarify what you mean by this point? Basically when someone goes and says "I got roleblocked" or "I was hit as a vet last night" scum now know something that previously only a townie knew. I don't think this is true all the time, as sometimes it's critical to get this info out to the rest of town, but I can see where Hapa is coming from | ||
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Shady Sands
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On September 04 2012 08:24 BlackMamba24 wrote: how would scum not know who got roleblocked or hit Because if they hit a vet, they wouldn't know whether it was a medic, a vet, or whether their member got roleblocked. | ||
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On September 04 2012 08:26 grush57 wrote: NONONOONONO As town ALWAYS tell town if you got hit/roleblocked unless some weird setup or something. Why? | ||
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On September 04 2012 18:17 Palmar wrote: Just like with any other normal miller role, nosy neighbours do not know they are nosy neighbours whoa what? Just got back into this thread. I'll read through it later (when I wake up) but for now, ##Vote Mattchew | ||
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On September 05 2012 05:12 grush57 wrote: Well, looks like Mattchew slipped and all the noobs on his team are now scrambling. So.... ##Vote: Mattchew Miltonkram after this lynch?(Assuming that Mattchew flips scum which he will) Why are you piling on Miltonkram? AFAIK you didn't even offer a single post on the entire Mattchew debacle and now you're trying to chainsaw defend Hapa by drawing associative scumtells? | ||
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On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote: check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite I don't get this, please explain | ||
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On September 07 2012 00:52 Hapahauli wrote: There is no scum motivation. Think about what the objectives of hard-defending a teammate as mafia are. The goal of hard-defending a teammate is to prevent their lynch. It’s pretty clear that defending someone after they have 20-something votes on them is not going to prevent said lynch, so how can it be a mafia objective? It’s not a mafia objective, it’s screamingly bad townie. By contrast, If the lynch was close between two candidates, hard-defending makes sense from a mafia perspective. It’s not smart, but there’s mafia-motive. Regarding the whole “Mattchew was stupid therefore Ottox could be stupid mafia” – that’s a load of BS. As stated above, there’s a huge difference between stupid and mafia-motivated stupid. So as for your questions: I don’t find Ottox scummy. I see a lot of town motivation (even if stupid) behind his actions. What town motive do you see? | ||
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Shady Sands
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On September 07 2012 00:56 Hapahauli wrote: Welcome back - where the hell have you been? Did you not just read my damn post? I told you exactly why it's not scum motivated. The town motivation lies in him questioning a read he believes not to be true. Stupid? Absolutely. But as stated above, NOT mafia motivated. Fell behind in this game and never got the chance to catch up. Voted Mattchew in this thread and got warned for it =S Alright, got it. I'm still leery of players like this though, because if this is how he plays town, are you sure we want him around at MYLO/LYLO? | ||
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On September 07 2012 01:26 imallinson wrote: That's getting into the same reasoning as Ottox's reason why Matt wasn't scum, that because scum can talk with team mates they don't make mistakes. Your point makes sense if the scum team is working well together but we've had Matt's fake claim which is obviously scum doing something stupid. If you add to that Ottox who I think is scum doing all the stupid shit he has done I can see Gravan posting the soft defence of Matt before thinking and before looking at the QT. Obviously this alone wouldn't be a solid case, in the same way BM's point about Hapa coaching isn't enough to push a lynch on him, but with the rest of Gravan's posting being so lurky and faux contributing I think that Gravan is the best bet to lynch tomorrow. It's certainly possible he is newbie town but I don't think that is a sufficient explanation for his scummy behaviour. Personally I've never played a game with BM before and seeing everyone ignore him I figured that not everyone can be scum so it must just be how BM is. Even if Gravan didn't reach the same conclusion the case reeks of scum making a light case on someone they think will be an easy target to seem to contribute to the thread. As for Ottox and Gravan both being scum I think it's certainly possible. Notice Gravan doesn't talk about Ottox being scummy until well after Ottox started his hole digging project. I think it is certainly possible that the scum team decided that Ottox had shafted himself and bussed him to blend in with everyone else attacking him. IMO reading through Ottox's filter, it's still a bit early to be drawing associative tells with him. We should probably wait for his flip to do that. In the meanwhile, I want to figure out when scum started to bus Matt, and which players ended up voting Matt with little to no explanation (or bad explanation) after Palmar essentially modkilled him. | ||
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On September 07 2012 01:38 imallinson wrote: The problem is that everyone who didn't have a vote on Matt voted Matt after Palmar's post with little or no explanation because the explanation was obvious to everyone (except Ottox of course). I'm sure scum bussed Matt as soon as they saw Palmar's post. So our possible list of people who could be scum bussing Matt is everyone who voted Matt except Sloosh, Hapa and DYH which doesn't get us very far. Got it. | ||
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On September 07 2012 15:25 Bill Murray wrote: If Doyouhas is town we don't lynch Hapahauli If Doyouhas is scum we lynch Hapahauli imo Can you please explain how Doyouhas and Hapa can be linked? | ||
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On September 08 2012 15:58 BroodKingEXE wrote: Guys this lynch is not happening. Its like 12:00 PST I'll make a good case in the morning, but Im forced to say Im Watcher. Night One I visited BC and got back GK -_-. Shouldn't you have also gotten back Blackmamba as well? Or was Black not concurrently killed by the suicide bomber? | ||
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On September 08 2012 23:02 Gravan wrote: Another thought - Shady has been fairly quiet this game. All his posts indicate that he is reading the thread and keeping abreast of it himself, but his posts just kind of answer or ask questions. I am interested to hear if you have any reads, Shady? Anyway, it might be worth it for everybody to take a peek at his short filter. Right now, my main read is on BKE, both because of Hapa's case and his bad claim. Other than BKE, my other main read is GRush. It starts here: On September 06 2012 07:50 grush57 wrote: K. Medics on Toad and BC and BM. Vigi kill in the pool of scummy people/ scummylurkers. Ex: Ottox, Maverick, Do you has. This comes before GK suicide bombs into BC/BM. To me it almost sounds like he was trying to draw a blue into the bombing. Then he responds to the BKE case by questioning evidence without offering his own read (a classic instance of someone who wants to poke at a case without revealing their own opposition to it); then starts soft defending BKE: On September 08 2012 06:25 grush57 wrote: This reminds me of LVI where BKE got mislynched and he was way scummier that game. while trying to deflect attention to Lvdr for lurking. Then he sheeps BKE without really offering his own reason for doing so, while at the same time ridiculing people who are attacking him without straight up defending himself; finally claiming someone else's reason to vote BKE as his own. Generally, all he's done is post 1-liners on people without offering clear reads. He also soft defended BKE until the wagon was unstoppable. No matter what BKE flips, that sort of soft defending is very scummy, as I can't see why a town who thought BKE was town wouldn't put his foot down and defend like crazy; a classic example of which was Ottox. ## FoS GRush57 | ||
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On September 08 2012 23:17 Toadesstern wrote: oh god, still mixed up... you know what I am talking about right?^^ BM can't be the target of the suicide bomber because if that'd be the case BKE would be dead by now as well, if his claim is legit. Therefore BC was targeted by the suicide bomber according to BKE and BM got shot by a single mafia hit, which is incredible weird. I thought Watcher wasn't affected by suicide bomber? Anyhow, if your interpretation of the rules is true, that just makes BKE's claim even less likely to be true. | ||
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On September 08 2012 23:42 Toadesstern wrote: Why should a watcher not be affected by the suicide bomber? everyone who visits that player reads to me as everyone. Or was there something I'm missing? I just reread the rules. I am stupid. For some reason I thought tracker/watcher meant that the person did not actually "visit" them, only watched or followed them. Sorry | ||
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On September 08 2012 23:46 Toadesstern wrote: If a medic had saved someone (scenario would be: BC got suicide bombed, BM got shot with 1KP, someone else got shot and protected for 1KP) we would have had some guy claiming the hit though, wouldn't we? Any yes you're correct, I said something along those lines as well. I said I want medics on BC+myself. Got it. I just found it strange that both of the N1 kills were listed in his post requesting medic protection, and part of the N1 body count was delivered via suicide bomber. | ||
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On September 08 2012 23:49 austinmcc wrote: I hope not. No offense to BKE, but if the medic claims then it's a bad deal. Medic backs up BKE's claim; we don't mislynch BKE. We get an almost confirmed town in the medic's target, scum gets a medic and a watcher identified. We could still mislynch today even after all that. It's a bad trade. If we had a medic save, from a medic who possibly got an intelligent protect N1 and might get some more, guy should stay quiet. Scum comes out ahead in that trade, because they get lots of blue info whereas town just goes from a definite mislynch to a maybe mislynch with the next target. Doesn't this also mean that scum could read anyone who defends BKE heavily as a potential medic? | ||
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On September 09 2012 00:03 austinmcc wrote: Gotcha. OP so sparse  We had no claims of being roleblocked, even though we might have jailers and might have roleblockers. And no claimed hit. There's some chance that the person doesn't get notified of a hit, although that seems out of the ordinary. But we're missing any RB info, regardless of whether we're also missing a hit if BKE isn't scum.Are you guys sure a townie who is hit but medic saved will know about it? | ||
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On September 09 2012 00:07 Toadesstern wrote: oh that's right. Could be there's no notifications at all. But if that's the case the medic wouldn't even know himself and as you mentioned that really would be out of the ordinary. However, I still consider it weird that BM24 was suicide bombed and not BC according to BKE. Agreed. That claim does not make BKE look any less scummy imo. What do you think about GRush? | ||
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On September 09 2012 00:13 Toadesstern wrote: hasn't changed that much. Beautiful. No matter which way BKE flips let's lynch/vigi that other bastard too. | ||
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On September 09 2012 00:18 Palmar wrote: I've had a few questions about this. No one is notified of anything they don't absolutely need to know in this game. This is how I generally run my games. examples: You will not be told if you're roleblocked. You will not be told if you got saved. You will not be told that you made a save. Thanks. Ergo, we have no way to verify BKE's claim... | ||
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On September 09 2012 00:31 grush57 wrote: When I was scum in LVI this scenario happened to BKE. However, BKE is the best candidate right now. Why? | ||
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On September 09 2012 00:50 BroodKingEXE wrote: I have to be honest, Im just laying it out. In XIII Newbie, I was One-Shot and didn't claim and everyone said I should've. I don't want to make the same mistake. I know me getting GK back is useless, but I need town to know what you guys will be lynching. Medic should not claim definetly(if we have one and they acted), else we both die. I picked BC primarily for the reason that Matt was his first pick and he was using the lynch to look around for other scum. He was speaking with really solid logic and had a few scum reads already. DrH was under a bit of fire, so I wasn't sure if scum was going to let that sit and develop. I didn't think Toad was active enough to be killed that night, but he had by then moved to my town list due to his response to my case. Just to make it clear I think Shady and Mav are scum Er what lol? Where's your case on me? Or are you just sheeping GRush? | ||
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On September 09 2012 00:41 grush57 wrote: Shady Sands is scum people. Doesn't hop on me till Toad makes a case, ASKS other people's opinion on it and ask if its good, and now he asks me why. WHY U SAY. BECASUE....................................................................................................... Actually I didn't even know Toad's case on you existed, else why would I ask him what he thought of you? And of course you need to explain why, since what you're saying is that meta suggests we shouldn't lynch BKE but somehow he is your best candidate. Those are two mutually contradictory sentences. | ||
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On September 09 2012 01:13 DarthPunk wrote: Wait. There is more. When I just posted in the Voting thread it seems as If he has unvoted BKE and moved to Shady despite posting that BKE was the best candidate. The reasoning? This kid is suspicious as hell. BKE. Please read my case on grush and give me your thoughts. I am delaying bed for a bit because I think lynching a blue claim is a huge mistake and would like to find and consolidate another candidate. I'd be willing to hop onto a GRush wagon. | ||
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On September 09 2012 01:25 DarthPunk wrote: LOL scummy shady. I don't know if that post will help or hinder this.  Not sure why that's scummy. I made my PoV on GRush pretty clear before you posted your case. | ||
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On September 09 2012 01:35 Toadesstern wrote: well yeah I agree. I really don't like the situation we're in right now. Lynching BKE sounds really stupid right now and I don't like Grush's attitude at all. I'm going to vote for Grush. I've still got about an hour left before I have to go so let's see what we can do and whether or not it's possible. ##vote Grush Alright, let's get this wagon going. ##Vote Grush | ||
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On September 09 2012 01:38 austinmcc wrote: Scratch that. Lynching Toad would require way more work and way more discussion than I think we're going to get at this point in time. I will put together some stuff, post it this night. I don't think we've got enough time left this day to push a difficult lynch, so we need to look at ... easier options? ... that sounds kind of bad, but hopefully people can understand what I mean. We have limited time to get new candidates and discuss them, and trying to get a lynch on certain targets will be much more difficult than getting a lynch on targets like Grush. Who's seriously not mafia. Why do you think grush is not mafia? brb going to mickey d's, haven't smoked in such a long time, getting serious munchies | ||
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On September 09 2012 02:02 grush57 wrote: Anyways, I know who I'll be moving my BOMB on tonight if I survive Love and Kisses <3 Are you claiming mad hatter? | ||
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On September 09 2012 02:05 grush57 wrote: IDK MAN IDK I GOTTA MAKE UP SHIT TO SAVE MYSELF Yeah, after Chez in Normal Mini III, I've just about had it to here with these muthafuckin trolls in this muthafuckin game. Seriously town, he's relying on trolling to defend himself. What. The. Fuck? | ||
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On September 09 2012 01:50 Gravan wrote: I still have reservations about this switch. According to what I can gather from this thread, Grush always acts like an idiot. This gets him mislynched often. We're lynching him, instead of BKE (who, until his meager roleclaim and sudden throwing out of cases) was under intense suspicion and getting wagon'd. So far as I can tell, the logic goes roughly as follows: BKE is very suspicious, but his blue claim isn't out of the question. Lynching a blue would be very detrimental to the town. Grush is suspicious (alternatively idiotic and anti-town, depending on who is talking) and non-contributive besides. Lynching Grush is, at worse, a mislynch (we won't miss his discussions as a townie) and at best a mafia lynch. This is all just a little sudden for me. What happened to those strong suspicions regarding BKE's earlier flip-flopping? Can one of you vote-switchers explain to me how that behaviour is now negated/lessened because of his role-claim? I'm switching because of the possibility that it might be true. A Watcher is a very powerful role to have, and only grows more powerful as the game progresses. BKE can be relatively easily outed/counter-claimed later on if need be. He's not a good lynch right now. | ||
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On September 09 2012 02:28 austinmcc wrote: I am 100% opposed to a Grush lynch right now. (1) I don't think he's scummy. (2) I think he's an easy mislynch for mafia to push, and I don't like that he immediately floated to the top. (3) He'll be around. IF BKE was town, mafia was probably on him, at least some members. All yesterday, BKE was the lynch, ezpz. Then he claims watcher. Now, that plan is in the crapper because people are moving away. I swear there's a post from Ace somewhere saying that the worst thing that happen to you is scum is for just a random event to break up your plan. A vig shot on a player, a confirmable claim from your mislynch target, things that break up the flow of your plan and force confusion/panic, ruin your work. I can't find it now. But I'm pretty sure it exists, if you know where it is, bonus austinpoints. BKE's claim doesn't really do that. There's still plenty of time to scheme. BUT. BUT. If we also don't lynch Grush, that really throws things for a loop. If we can generate discussion, some new reads, watch reactions, that's a lot of info for town. It's almost like...not lynching Grush for info? How does everyone react, what are the other reads we get, etc. It changes mafia's target twice if they're both town (and we can actually find a scum or two to push). Their actions and responses are useful to us. Grush isn't pulling any strings here, you can lynch him later if you want to because you don't really have to worry about him being scum and influencing town, he doesn't take a leadership role. This is completely WIFOM. How can you say that the reason we don't lynch grush is because he's not in a town leadership role when BKE has much less towncred than him? Furthermore, I don't get what the first half of your post talking about a random event is supposed to refer to. Can you explain? | ||
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On September 09 2012 02:34 grush57 wrote: Sigh, I guess BKE is scum, fakeclaiming and just idk man. Plus if we lynch BKE and he flips scum we'll get a lot of info from pushing me the easy lynch. ##Unvote ##Vote: BroodKingExe You're still not answering DP's question. | ||
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On September 09 2012 02:43 austinmcc wrote: This isn't really a random event. But I swear that quote exists about just...things you can't expect messing with scum plans. A vigi shooting someone you needed. A DT check on someone you needed. Someone picking at something and unraveling your plot. I think that's the sort of stuff Ace was talking about (I will go look for this, once I'm down sifting through Z-boson harder, just preoccupied right now and mainly typing, rather than looking at thread). But imagine...some things you see coming. X has a read on Y all game. You can mess with that. You can mess with claimed roles. You can shoot active and problematic people. You want to control the thread, control the lynches, whenever you need to (and maybe even when you don't). So you're more likely to...plan things? as scum. When are we bussing x, who are we going to push, how, which 3 are going to push x and who will push y instead, etc. Sudden events mess with those plans. This...isn't quite the same. But the fact that we had a lynch on BKE, then he claims and sparks discussion and town swaps to looking more at Grush, then town starts talking about BKE v. Grush v. Other options (hopefully more than just Z-Boson anyone have anything?) throws a wrench into the works of any plans. They had a day where they were just sitting back to lynch BKE, or setting him up (if he's town). Then that got interfered with. No problem, Grush is here. We can push a lynch onto Grush. Then that is maybe being interfered with. That's what I'm hoping to do. It's not...random. I can't even be sure both are town. But the less...the less town moves predictably, the less scum can do to control it? I'm not sure this is exactly true, but I'm kind of playing around with it in my head. So not random events messing with scum, but just...sudden changes in targets, multiple times over a day, MAY shake out some information. You do realize that scum could just lurk like crazy and turn your "shake-up" plan into a way to exploit a weak divided town? | ||
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On September 09 2012 03:10 Z-BosoN wrote: I seriously hope that if BKE is actually town, he shows up. If I am a blue, and I am set to be lynched, I would definitely be answering to the cases against me left and right. Going AWOL is a scummy trait (i.e. mattchew). Agreed. Switching back to BKE. | ||
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On September 09 2012 03:25 austinmcc wrote: Z-boson. Gonna half-build a case here I guess, because he's a better lynch than Grush. Interactions with players he knows + Show Spoiler + On August 31 2012 03:59 Z-BosoN wrote: We know he's played before, and he's played with Shady, DarthPunk, and goodkarma. How does he interact with each of them? Shady Sands, DarthPunk and goodkarma, great seeing you gents around here. Looking forward to this game. XXIV was quite the experience, and hope this one gets as fun. I do hope I can manage this game without screwing up RL as much though =) With DarthPunk, here's his first interaction - + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2012 11:12 Z-BosoN wrote: There is a lot of people who have not yet posted. The views on policy lynch, from what I've gathered, are varied. Absolute lurkers will get modkilled, so should we discuss what to do with people who have posted one or two crap posts and disappeared? @Darthpunk Unjustified accusations won't get us anywhere. If you are going to say it was retarded, say why. snipped @slOosh Very well, seems reasonable. Thanks for clearing that up. What is your take on Darthpunk? ##Unvote He read what DarthPunk said, but didn't address him directly. Asked him a question, asked slOosh about darth, but not much direct interaction. First interaction with Shady? Nope, he never interacts with shady. Hasn't quote a shady post, said hi, called him out for lurking, etc. etc. First interaction with goodkarma? + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2012 11:16 Z-BosoN wrote: Howdy gk  There are good ways to push information, and bad ways. By the way that almost ALL his posts were questions and the fact that some of them could easily have been avoided, I interpreted them as adding confusion rather than removing it. Thus, I pressured him to respond to this and was satisfied with his reply. The reason for the vote this early is evidently to force answers, just as your FOS did with me  For now, just note the difference. He's played with these guys. But he smilies at goodkarma, they talk directly to each other. He also doesn't seem to feel very threatened by goodkarma's FoS. He's WINKING at a guy FoSing him. That bugs me, because not feeling at all threatened COULD indicate that he knows goodkarma is just writing stuff for show. Conclusion I draw - Either both are scumbuddies, so Z-Boson has a different relation with goodkarma this game than with shady or DarthPunk, or I'm pulling stuff out of my ass. You decide. Note also that the way goodkarma entered, FoSing Z-Boson, is different than the other entrances, and could explain a different reaction (Hard not to respond directly to guy X when he FoSes you). His Mattchew Vote/Interactions (Holy balls read this) + Show Spoiler + Z-Boson on BC/Mattchew - On September 04 2012 16:21 Z-BosoN wrote: Note the timestamp. This is before Palmar's confirmation. Look at it too...it's kind of...wonky. He doesn't understand how BC can KNOW that nosy beighbors weren't self-aware. He thinks it's ridiculous to insist that they're not, there's a chance that they are. But what does he do? He just votes mattchew. He's ARGUING THAT MATTCHEW MIGHT BE A SELF-AWARE NOSY NEIGHBOR, ACTIVELY SAYING "MAYBE MATTCHEW IS ACTUALLY SELF-AWARE, YOU CAN'T BE SURE BC." Yet, after arguing that, after saying Matt is maybe right, BC can't be sure...he votes Matt. He just votes Matt. Matt the guy he's trying to help out here. Doesn't wait for confirmation, doesn't discuss matt's scumminess or not scumminess, whether he believes nosy neighbors are self-aware or not, just votes matt. All right, regarding the BC/Mattchew situation: First of all, this post is wrong: IIRC, he asked for people with the same role - noisy neighbor - to claim, not blues. BC is making this main assumption: To put it simply, this is the main argument going on: how can he know he is a noisy neighbor if they are unaware?. Am I correct? You have made it clear that you are 100% sure that this game does not include self-aware millers. As a normal person, one could not make this assumption, as it would be statistical. Say 90% of games don't include self-aware millers. I have read the OP, and nowhere does it say that millers aren't self-aware, so you must have other reasons to know this, because no matter what, you say it is not an assumption. The fact that you keep insisting would be ridiculous if you weren't indeed 100% certain, because, like sloosh said, you would most likely be lynched if he showed up town, making it a double town loss. Did I get anything wrong here? If not, ##Vote Mattchew WhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAaaaaaAAAAAaaA????? In addition to that - KAPOW! On September 05 2012 10:53 Z-BosoN wrote: BM24 noticed that Z-Boson was acting weird, and hadn't done anything for, by the way, 18 hours. Z-Boson NEVER came back to say "Oh, you were right BC." Z-Boson NEVER came back to discuss Palmar's confirmation. EVERYONE was discussing that crap, even when matt flipped. But not Z-boson.I'm here. Still catching up, lots of posts to go over. Will exercise and post soon. Moreover, does he ever discuss Matt further? Yup. On September 05 2012 12:43 Z-BosoN wrote: Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched. What can we conclude if he flips scum or town? In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch? My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum. If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched. Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game. @Shiaopi Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed? This post feels wonky. WONKY. You're voting for the guy, never discussed Palmar's confirmation, and now you want to play the "Okay, where do we go if he flips town, flips scum?" game. Why are you doing this? This post is just...throwaway. There's nothing in it but the shiaopi question. It's not awful...but...it's just a weird post. Let's talk about this thing that we can talk about later once Matt flips and we don't need to talk about now. Let's spam up thread with speculation about each situation. No need to do that. Much later on, this - On September 06 2012 07:42 Z-BosoN wrote: Z-BosoN asks how BC knew NN's weren't self-aware. He answered this. He PMed Palmar, before everyone else did. He was sitting on the answer but couldn't say because of the rules in the OP. Not reading thread. Not only does Ottox not talk about any of the confirmation stuff, but he didn't read it closely, because BC mentioned how he knew NN's weren't self-aware a good bit (Remember, there was back and forth between BM24 and BC about it).Wasn't gonna bother, but please, enlighten me. Is this just gut feeling or do you have any specific reasons? Anyways, regarding him, why exactly did he absolutely know that NN's aren't self-aware? This might have been answered or is obvious but I can't find anything. For now, my vote goes to Oxtrott. Z-BosoN spammy and fluffy on Ottox + Show Spoiler + Look at page 2 of Z-Boson's filter. Here. Doop de doop de doop. Some discussion, lots of talk about Ottoxlol. Lots of stuff about Ottoxlol. Then finally gives what I consider to be a really, really decent post. On September 06 2012 06:41 Z-BosoN wrote: That's good. That's townie. Ox was preeeeeetty much gonna die. By vig, by lynch, somehow. We SHOULD have stopped arguing with him. Gj townie Z-BosoN! Oh god, not this again. Can we just ignore ox?? It's pointless arguing with him. But...Z-BosoN didn't take his own advice. Continue looking at that page. And the next one. LOTS of stuff still on Ottoxlol. It's not the scummiest thing ever, but ... it negates the most townie thing I find in his filter. I'm not even linking posts here, just check the filter. There are boatloads. Nobody ever really said anything NEW about Ottox from the point he started looking weird until the "scumslip" on mafia numbers. That was the single new point of information we got about Ottox really. Every one of us that was just posting about Ottox and posting about Ottox was kind of wasting time, getting out meaningless posts. I did it, others did as well, so it's not like it's scum-only. But it's a convenient way to get in a lot of posting and look active, post a bunch on this topic that doesn't matter. Dat Toad Post + Show Spoiler + On September 08 2012 07:17 Z-BosoN wrote: I'm going to leave the BKE thing on hold for now, until we hear what he has to say. If he says nothing and doesn't bother scumhunting and gracing us with his thoughts on the game, then my vote will be on him 100%. Meanwhile, I've done reading the post by Toad, and also took the time to read his filter from LI and what was the "best bus in TL history" he mentioned. Your post had a ton of stuff to read, and I have some issues and some doubts regarding it. Let's do this. First off, you post this: Can I ask, what conclusion do you agree with? Because the conclusion on the case against forumite is this: But that doesn't make sense with your "I don't like the case on forumite". Please do explain what conclusion you meant. Now, onward to your (seemingly classic) motherfuckin wall of text. Ok, so I've referenced the writings in red so you have an easier time answering. The quantity of asterisks in each number indicate how much I would like an answer from you. Btw, you sure have a high opinion of yourself. Also, I forgot to reference this, but since I do not want to change the whole numbering now, also, please answer this: 5.5*) Why should S&B be scared shitless of you? (1) He claims to have read LI. Both HERE Meanwhile, I've done reading the post by Toad, and also took the time to read his filter from LI and what was the "best bus in TL history" he mentioned. and HERE 7) LOL at you/gonzaw in LI. He was extremely paranoid... funny thing was he was correct Toad lets us know that LI was massiveOn September 09 2012 02:12 Toadesstern wrote: Z-BosoN clearly either read the game or didn't. He references Gonzaw being paranoid and correct. He's pulling out specific facts. Either he went and read a ginormous game for this one offhand comment of Toad's, or he knows facts about LI from someone that was involved (Toad). Which is more likely? Just now he says this, after getting called out on it - I actually don't believe z-boson read the game I was talking about (LI). That shit of a game had about 130 pages of bullshit by the end of d2 if I remember correctly :p No way someone would force himself into reading THAT. Of course I didn't read the whole thing. Why would I do that if all I wanted was your meta? I also didn't read the entirety of your filter, because even THAT was too much. Just skimmed over your posts, reading your main cases and that pony image wall of text you posted. Again, Z-BosoN discusses Gonzaw's interactions. Z-BosoN says he just skimmed Toad's posts, drops a specific thing he noticed "pony image all of text," but knows about Gonzaw's suspicions. I just get a bad feeling from this, like it's covering up the fact that he didn't read but has knowledge of the game. (2) His questions feel like...politician questions? Read these, and see whether they're things you really ask, or if you ask you don't follow up on - 2*) So you are saying that you were expecting a vet to say you were unreadable etc. etc. and attack you based on it? i.e., had one of the four vets said anything in an aggressive manner, you would have pegged him as scum and attacked him later on? 3*) So you don't like the cases on foru, you don't say why AND even add that you don't like targeting vets (in the previous post), and your guts are telling you that you would bet on him being mafia despite shitting on the main case against him so far? This all due to your experience with him and your gut feelings? 4*) Ok, this explains why you aren't making cases against them and is being consistent with your "let's not target vets" approach. Since this part of your post mainly deals with vets, I am to assume this pseudo-read on forumite is just a comparative between the vets and not actually a real go-through-with-it suspicion? 5**) Just to make it ultra-clear: Now that both DrH and BC are dead, do you think forumite/BM are mafia? Those questions feel wrong. They're not actually seeking information. Most of them just want Toad to say the same thing over again. Toad says x. Z-Boson asks, "So what you're saying is x?" That's a silly question, especially when you ask it 4 times or so. Either ask better questions, or follow-up, or SOMETHING. Assorted Ephemera Lots of calling people out without calling them out. Poking around DarthPunk early, no followup. FoSes Maverick, references him throughout N1 and D2, but that's kind of it, willing to do BKE/grush. Doesn't buy BKE's claim, but hesitant to vote for him, seems like he's biding his time to see where things fall. Shady's meta is off, the end. Finally, because I just can't help it + Show Spoiler + Z-BosoN. Z-Bo Son. We already talked about BM24 and basketball. Z-Bo = the nickname of Zach Randolph, another NBA player. Perhaps best known for previously being a bit of a loose cannon, punching a guy and getting suspended. Solid player now, but when he was younger, he was kind of chippy. Now seems to be more mature, really helping the Grizzlies. Z-BosoN = Z-Bo's Son, an earlier Z-Bo. Back when he wasn't mature yet. Punching guys in the jaw, what a younger Z-Bo did, doesn't sound townie to me. It sounds scummy! I'm not convinced on Z-B being a scum because he had some pretty acrimonious exchanges with GK on D1. In all the games I've played, scum pretty much ignore each other D1, so that's a very strong town-tell in my books. | ||
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On September 09 2012 03:40 austinmcc wrote: Look at their filters. The most acrimonious thing is GK FoSing Z-Boson. To which he responds with smilies. GK points out that weird "If matt is town if matt is scum" post, but does nothing with it. I find no acrimonious exchanges, and only one real accusation that's just an FoS followed by smilies. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=32#630 This is what I was referring to. Still on a second look it does look weaker than I expected. Could be a distancing move, although at this point it's not enough for me to base a lynch upon (especially when BKE looks so scummy.) Going to take a nap now. | ||
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On September 09 2012 11:17 Hapahauli wrote: I retract my vigi-shot call on Rewok. He mentions the "lynch for blood" stuff earlier in his filter, and I'm willing to chalk it up to bad town. His giant wall-o-text posts giving everyone null-reads actually reads town to me - seems like a genuine attempt to contribute, despite being useless. However, I do think we should look into vigi-shotting [b]ShiaoPi[b]. Shiao is hardcore lurking in comparison to his other games as VT. Absolutely no content in Shaio's filter, and there are a couple of posts that fingerpoint like mad: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=47#929 Shaio originally wasn't posting because of "internet concerns." I believed Shiao at the time, but now it's becoming a habit. Why are you calling for a vig shot on Shiao for lurking and no call for a vig shot on me for lurking? I'm fingerpointing too. | ||
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On September 09 2012 11:47 Hapahauli wrote: Do you think you're a better vig shot than Shaio? Do tell. I asked you first, Hapa. Please answer | ||
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On September 09 2012 11:59 Hapahauli wrote: no. Quit being petulant. You're calling for a vig shot on the basis of lurking and fingerpointing. If so, why not call for it on me or any of the other lurkers here? | ||
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On September 09 2012 12:02 DarthPunk wrote: Yeah Hapa. Stop answering questions with questions. You have been extremely selective with your scum reads this game. I would also like to know why shaio over shady. Also how could you see Ottox as not scummy and BKE with a plausible watcher claim guaranteed scum. I am going to take a close look at your filter and XXI. Something is off about you. I agree. Hapa's usually a pretty good scumhunter. His posts on Ottox in particular are just strange; almost inviting a vigi hit on Ottox but backing away enough to give himself plausible deniability. Town Hapa (in Newbie Mini XXIII) didn't play like this. | ||
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On September 09 2012 12:22 Hapahauli wrote: And goddamnit, if you want the answer to why I'm calling a shot on ShiaoPi - META. He has barely a page of filter, which is completely inconsistent with any of his other town games. I even said that in my post too - not only are you lurking, but you don't fucking read. So what? My META is even further off my town guys and I haven't heard a peep from you about it. And yes, I read. Maybe that's why I'm not posting like a crazed raccoon this game? | ||
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On September 09 2012 12:15 Hapahauli wrote: Quite frankly, I'm just pissed the fuck off that people are lurking, and Shady's going as far as to freking flaunt it. So why target one lurker over any others? You still haven't answered the question: Why Shiaopi over everyone else? Town already wasted a vig shot on Ottox. Why should town use another one without carefully considering the consequences first? | ||
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On September 09 2012 12:17 Hapahauli wrote: You're full of it. Admittedly I thought Ottox was suspicious for a little while, but quickly turned around and [b]hard defended him when I started to think straight. Your bolded comment makes me think you didn't read the damn thread. Or you turned around and hard defended him once the wagon got rolling and was nearly unstoppable. Your motivations here could be spun any which way but the truth remains that town Hapa didn't play this way in XXIII. | ||
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On September 09 2012 12:31 Hapahauli wrote: He's the only one I don't have some form of a bad-town read on. As for why over you - you actually have a filter. Not reading is also consistent with your town meta. Why? What has he posted that shows a scum read as opposed to bad-town? | ||
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On September 09 2012 12:49 Hapahauli wrote: And as far as I'm concerned Shady, you've posted jack-shit in terms of your reads. Put-up or shut-up. Right, because nearly starting a counter-wagon to the BKE mislynch on grush57 does not qualify as a read. And in case you're wondering, right you and him are my top scumreads. | ||
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On September 09 2012 12:43 Maverick32x wrote: Well- with BKE's flip, I think we need to look at people who weren't involved in any discussion and voted anyways, or people who are lurking.... Lurking seems to be really popular in this game? I'm thinking that we need to start putting pressure on the lurkers to try to stir something up there. I will start to look through some filters to get a better idea of who these people would be, but I figure that may be a good start. Why not look at the people who led the charge on the BKE lynch? | ||
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On September 09 2012 12:59 Hapahauli wrote: You made a case on GRush - if you think that's an actual read, you either haven't seen GRush play or you're smoking something that I want real bad right now. Cases and reads are equivalent. If you think they're different, then, you, sir, are the drug addict. | ||
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On September 09 2012 13:17 Hapahauli wrote: So you made a read on Grush. You started a counter-wagon against someone who is traditionally the easiest mislynch in the game - someone who is going to behave just like that regardless of alignment. Yay for reads that matter! Still waiting for an answer to this btw: What does grush's prior meta have to do with the fact that he's behaving anti-town? If a player traditionally trolls all the time like YH or Chez, do we just give them a free pass? | ||
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D1, he soft-defends Mattchew until Sloosh gives him an easy out... then immediately tries to divert to Miltonkram. Hard pushes Ottox, then goes back and soft-defends him once the entire town is on the wagon. But when a lynch is on the line, pushes on BKE wagon regardless of what other people say. Why? He says BKE is scum because BKE went from a hard push on Ottox to a soft defense of Ottox. Pot. Kettle. Black. This + scumwagon on BKE was enough to get town to vote him. Finally, Hapa is usually an excellent town player. I have no idea why scum is letting him live this long, nor why he hasn't contributed better original reads than the ones he has. ##Vote Hapahauli | ||
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On September 09 2012 13:27 Hapahauli wrote: 1) you're championing a worthless read - he [b]always is anti-town regardless of alignment. 2) you can call it a "free pass" or whatever, but as it stands, there's no indication if he's town or scum. I like my chances building a case on a player that's actually readable at this point in the game - better than a 75/25 town/scum chance on Grush (or however the town/scum numbers are in this game). If he's always anti-town, shouldn't he be a more valid target for a vigi hit than a lurker? | ||
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On September 09 2012 13:30 Hapahauli wrote: So you want to vigi hit a bad player rather than scum? So you want to vigi hit a lurker playing off his meta rather than scum? | ||
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On September 09 2012 13:36 Hapahauli wrote: So stop being a pussy about it and call the shot. No, I'm calling for the shot on you and calling for the lynch on grush. I know I can get grush lynched, given how anti-town he's playing. You're a tougher nut to crack, especially with scumbuddies and misguided townies to soft-defend you. | ||
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On September 09 2012 18:11 Kreb wrote: I didnt get this at least. From that post you make out that he seems to know too much. How? To me he is just speculating, which might not be worthy of a post to begin with but doesnt seem scummy to me. Kreb, BM is just trolling. Can you look at the DP/me/Hapa exchange in the past few pages and give us your thoughts? | ||
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On September 09 2012 13:31 DarthPunk wrote: So you felt that Ottox was town despite the fact he was scummy as shit. And you think Grush is town Despite looking scummy as shit. But you were 100% positive on BKE and tunnelled him all of day 2 without changing your read or your case because he 'flip-flopped' on Matt. DESPITE HIS CLAIM and with several of us making counter arguments? Based on Flip flopping on Matt. I posted this on day one. You ignored it. Z - boson was similarly guilty. If you thought BKE was scum based on his interactions around Matt then you should have found Z - Boson suspicious also. And yet you don't mention him at all UNTIL Austin brings him up. You repeat what I posted day one and what Austin had been saying. It is suspicious as hell and yet you continue to tunnel BKE. And state that Z - Boson is town. You are being very selective on who you believe is scum/town and it is based on no shared thought processes from what I can see. This + Hapa flipflopping on Ottox, while remaining adamant about BKE based on the same reasoning that led him to flip-flop on Ottox himself. If Palmar has put a vet in the scumteam, Hapa looks like the biggest candidate. | ||
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On September 09 2012 19:22 Kreb wrote: Well, I didnt ask him about the "lulz gay" post (troll post). I asked him about him finding someone suspicious, which doesnt seem like trolling to me. Anyway. Hapa apparently was a pretty big part in the mislynch against BKE, and then afterwards comes out strong with vig call on ShiaoPi. My first feeling is it would be pretty ballsy for a mafia to that (which is obviously a good reason to do it as mafia yea yea I get that). But continuing down the discussion I do think he seems quite (emotianlly?) invested in his scumhunting and his frustration is relevant for someone who is feeling he is being questioned more than he might deserve. Apart from that, a lot of your argument seems to be based on meta. His read on Shiao, your read on him not questioning you for your supposed off-what-you-normally-do-meta. I cant really comment on much of that since I dont have any meta reads at all on any of you. In addition I do like and agree with your reasonign on Grush. Giving him "free pass" is a bad idea to me because of what the situation might turn into should we get closer to mylo/lylo with him still in it. If we're gonna have to do a 75/25 guess on him at some point anyway we might as well do it earlier since it gives us an extra cycle to discuss whatever target we might go on should we give Grush a pass. A lot of this is apparently about meta too, but people seem to agree his play is always trollish/anti-townish so I'll go with that for now. And since we're talking meta anyway, whats the reason for your meta to be so off from your normal? I did see you mentioning a being busy at work in an earlier post, but not sure if thats the whole reason.. Emotional involvement is a null tell. Scum get angry just as much as town (thank you Blazinghand). My read on Hapa basically boils down to two things: 1) Hapa is playing off his meta while ignoring my shift on meta. 2) Hapa is being very selective/arbitrary in his scumhunting, and so far has led us to mislynch someone. Note that neither part of #2 is scummy on its own, but when taken together, are a clear scumtell. As for my own quietness, I honestly was busy. Will still be busy tomorrow and the next few days. | ||
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On September 09 2012 19:05 Forumite wrote: I don´t understand why Z-boson talks about asking vets to confirm the number of watchers. There are probably more watchers in this game but we can´t know, so using that as any basis for a lynch is a very bad idea. His post-lynch post about how vets should have confirmed the number of watchers and that there must be a scum among the vets, it's a useless post and doesn´t sit well with me. He´s trying to shift the blame on vets even though none of his suspicions have any grounds, but posts like that usually makes it easier to start a wagon later in the game because "people have been suspicious". I´d rather see Z-boson make a real case on someone. Toades, we don´t know if Palmar deliberately made sure to put vets on the scumteam. Even if Palmar put vets on the scumteam, I once lost the game for town (as town) by trying to start a wagon on Palmar, because he was leading town too well. Do you think it´s likely he´d try and boost the scumteam by adding me? Also; Bill Murray, get in here. How about not sweeping the whole Hapa/DP/me disagreement under the rug and commenting on it? | ||
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On September 09 2012 20:24 Forumite wrote: Meh, I don´t think either of you stand out as especially scummy. I´ve been leaning town on Hapa for a while and the recent talk in the thread, what I´ve read of it, doesn´t change that. Got it. I agree with portions of your Z-Boson scumread, btw, but not fully. What I find strange is how this whole discussion regarding vets being on the scumteam got started... and then immediately scum whacks two town vets (DrH and BC.) I know there's a connection there somewhere but I haven't been able to pin it down yet. I feel little like Bud White in LA Confidential. Where is my Ed Exley? | ||
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On September 09 2012 21:46 Bill Murray wrote: im voting shady sands from here on out not trolling just going to make you all pick me or him regardless of alignment lol, why? | ||
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On September 09 2012 22:47 Bill Murray wrote: Guys ignore shadysands. He's trolling. Quit acting like a toddler. You were trolling. I'm asking you why you think forcing town to limit its voting options to me or you will help town win. | ||
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On September 09 2012 23:26 DarthPunk wrote: He did. I think. He clarified that although sloosh looks logical, his posts are just summations of what is happening rather than actual scum hunting. Got it. | ||
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On September 10 2012 03:54 austinmcc wrote: B-B-B-BONUS FIND! While reading through Forumite, there's this: Again, Z-BosoN so concerned with watchers. What do watchers see? What counts as visiting? How many watchers are in the game? Why is he so concerned with watchers? Cuz he's doing something that could get watched. And again, leaning assassin now because he's putting that in thread rather than into QT. Hmmm, interesting. | ||
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On September 11 2012 07:58 Forumite wrote: It´s more than what happened during the Matt lynch, but it´s hard to put down as a case. I´ll see if I find any concrete evidence while rereading. It´s tough because there are a few I´m leaning town on, or at least put down as town for now, but there are soooooo many players that look a bit scummy. I often get really paranoid when things go bad, or even when things go well. First off, sorry for the Hapa misread. I placed too much stock on his XXIII meta and expected similarly brilliant (cheating) play from him. (kidding about the cheating Hapa, I love you man.) Second, Forumite's neck is on the chopping block and all he's done is make weak reads and flip flop everywhere. Look at the above post. It smacks of an attempt to respond while giving excuses for his lack of legit scum-reads. Going through his filter, all I see is WIFOM and a few bad cases; plus his first few posts (before he asked Palmar about Mattchew) look like he was trying to WIFOM watcher/trackers into complete inaction on Mattchew. On September 04 2012 09:55 Forumite wrote: Lying to town as a blue is a bad idea. If you fakeclaim nosy neighbor to fool scum, then you risk getting lynched by town. You are still going to draw a few trackers during the first few nights, just to make sure that you are really visiting people at random with no effect, so because of this you might actually be hurting town by distracting blues. Without further ado, ## Unvote ## Vote Forumite | ||
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My main scumreads right now are Gravan and MMToss. Why? Because both came in at the eleventh hour and wagoned on Forumite late... plus their reads on Z-B or BM were woefully lacking for entering at such a late point in the debate. IF they want to wagon forumite at this hour, town Gravan and town MMToss would at least put some thought into why they chose him over ZB and BM. But they didn't. That's the biggest scumtell of today--lurkers who try to look active but don't actually "show their work" with regards to their reads. It's a bit late for a wagon so I will say this: town, please look into vigi-shooting one of these two tonight if Forumite flips green. | ||
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On September 12 2012 06:43 Gravan wrote: Just throwing this out there, but you have posted: During this entire day cycle. Which is one more post that myself, up until the last hour or so. While it certainly is true that the bulk of my posting has been right before the vote, you have contributed less than I have. The only claim you have over me is that you stated your position of Forumite earlier, then lurked. You didn't really get the gist of my post, so I'll state it again. What does scum have to do? Every vote cycle, whenever scum pushes a read early, they're either bussing or pushing a mislynch. One move is painful, the other move is risky and costs towncred. Hence scum want to wait until late in the vote cycle, hoping that one or two townies have already started a wagon on another townie, and then they will join the wagon in as inconspicuous a manner as possible. They essentially join the wagon without going through the townie steps of actually asking themselves why this person is scum--instead they join the wagon thinking whether this wagon will cost them towncred or not. That is what I was calling you out for above. When you don't show your work with your reads late in the vote-cycle, and then commit based on those reads, you fit the scum profile I just listed. That's why I'm calling for a vig hit on you and MMToss. | ||
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On September 12 2012 06:50 Gravan wrote: I chose forumite over Z-Boson and Bill Murray because I am uncertain about them in general (as you chose to ignore). I also believe (also as you chose to ignore) that Forumite is scum because of the methods he is using as a 'defence', in addition to the reasons (such as flip-floppiness) presented in the strong cases posted here already. The reasons you presented don't hold water. Why is pointing fingers and making cases a bad defense? If he flips scum, we can choose to ignore his reads. If he flips town, at least we were able to get his reads before he died. On the other hand, if all he does is say "I'm not scum" in a dozen different ways, then all town gets when he flips green is... that he was green. Town gets no other information. You seem to be thinking that the best defense is the one that gets a townie off the hook the fastest. No, the best defense is one where the townie contributes the most to the scumhunt regardless of whether the mislynch on him succeeds. Forumite hasn't been flip-floppy in the past 24 hours--instead, he's pursued two alternate cases very strongly even though there's a gun to his head. This is good town play. My regret is that there are not enough hours left today to push a wagon on people lying on the exact opposite of the spectrum... people like you. | ||
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Going to flip a coin right now between them... and ## Vote Gravan Will check in once night is over. | ||
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On September 13 2012 21:26 Bill Murray wrote: Also, Mementoss is where my vote is going to go. DYH was my first suspect, and Mementoss, since coming into the game, has a WHOPPING 3 POSTS. One says "hi", the 2nd is griefing/disruptive, and the 3rd is an excuse. Why not gravan? | ||
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Second, nothing in Gravan's filter has changed my read on him between that point in time and now, so my vote stays on him. Third, in terms of other reads, right now BM is very scum. He's soft-defending Gravan on the basis of a converse-associative tell versus Krebs. (Krebs = scum therefore Gravan =/= scum). This is bad play, because:
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On September 13 2012 22:31 Bill Murray wrote: Why not respond to any of my points? the guy has 3 posts since he replaced in days upon days ago, one of them is one word, and the most recent is an excuse to be lurking. Why not Gravan is my question. I have a scumread on MMToss too, but he can wait until tomorrow. Why not Gravan is my question today. | ||
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On September 13 2012 22:58 DarthPunk wrote: Why not MMToss? I am going to read both of their (short) filters again and see what I come up with. Toad. It seems as if you have a town read on BM now? The interplay between you both is going way over my head. Gravan's actively lurking; MMToss is completely lurking. Active lurking > completely lurking as a scumread in my book; also active lurking has more potential to disrupt town scumhunt than completely lurking. | ||
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On September 14 2012 01:29 Hopeless1der wrote: I'm sheeping this, specifically with respect to Maverick's posting around his vote between Forumite and Z-boson. There was this: A list of crap, an insistence we need to pressure the lurkers and then...oh wait I'll just vote this other guy. Sorry I'm more inactive than usual today =\. I probably wont post much, if at all, before the deadline (i realize its tomorrow...) ##Vote: Maverick32x Can you not sweep the Gravan case under the rug? Why Mav over Gravan? | ||
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First off, he says I'm actively lurking. I'm not. Actively lurking would be posting heavily and having a 10 or 15 page filter without substance. I'm simply lurking. I even say it myself that my activity level is low. Second, he says I started a bandwagon on him based on Forumite's green flip. That's an oversimplification. I started the wagon on Gravan because he piled onto Forumite when the case on Forumite was all but assured, using other people's analysis as his own reasoning, in an attempt to look contributory. The fact that Forumite flipped green is just icing on the cake. Grav's trying to twist the truth here; don't fall for it. Third, the vig hit was called out because of my case on Gravan before the Day post came around. Gravan even quotes it in his post. It's a bit late for a wagon so I will say this: town, please look into vigi-shooting one of these two tonight if Forumite flips green. Vig please hit Gravan or MMToss. Again, don't fall for Grav's lies. I already called for a vig hit there with evidence, so why should I clutter up the thread and repeat what I wrote? Fourth, of course I'm going to keep the heat on Gravan: he is the scummiest read I have, so shouldn't I be trying to get my top scumread lynched? -- Now, onto his defense: Grav posts a lot about how he shares a ton of characteristics with many other people. This is a non-defense. How does sharing a bunch of scummy characteristics with other people make you less likely to be a scum? Then says that people who are voting for him specifically are voting because: I think that the only reason the vote is primarily focused on me at the moment is because the bandwagon began earlier on me than it did on anyone else (started by the mafia, I have no doubt) and it is easy to point at my D1 post about Matt, as well as my general lurkiness. Hang on a second: Grav wasn't the first wagon: the wagon on MMToss started at the same time as his did. (Another lie.) Second, the other reasons are all great reasons to vote for Grav specifically: The D1 post about Matt--soft defense of someone that was later a scum caught trying to fakeclaim. The active lurkiness--both of those reasons, if you believe them, should put Grav at the top of your list of scum reads. And to those reasons which he himself admits to, we can also add the reason of lying. Lynch Grav, the actively lurking, OMGUS-ing, lying, soft-defending, scum. | ||
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On September 14 2012 04:58 grush57 wrote: The sloosh post I'm talking about is about Maverick. BM does one liners regardless and makes jokes in half his posts, just how he plays you guys aren't going to get anywhere calling that scummy You still didn't answer the question. How does that make Mav scum? Also, look at Grav, and tell me you don't see a scum. Today is for Grav. Tomorrow is for MMToss or maybe Mav, once I finish reading his filter. I am not switching my vote to anyone but Grav, and I hope everyone here understands that and can show this scumbastard the noose. | ||
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On September 14 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote: Are you reading the game? Or did you just forget that we had someone claim having a bomb on me? They shot Z-Boson, the guy who claimed Mad hatter who placed a bomb on me to get a free kill (hinthint: I was supposed to be the free kill). Why should they shoot the guy who is supposed to be a free kill on top of having the bomb do the job? Unless of course they didn't believe the claim, which can't be because if that's the case they could have just shot me without having to shoot Z-Boson. Furthermore the kills seemed to be rashly rearranged to fit the changed situation with Z-Boson claiming. I really don't get what you're asking here. Also this is nothing special. I'm awesome at playing mafia yet I'm only an average town-player. Mafia left me alive in *whatever the name was* although I was a modconfirmed town mason in that game. But again, a lot of people are paranoid about me, even if I end up being innocent-child-like confirmed. Not saying it's that strong this game but you've got to be really paranoid to consider me a mafia after what happened yesterday. I usually get shot either n1 or survive until lylo. Pretty much nothing inbetween exists in the history of Toad-games so far. You should put your paranoia somewhere else. Maybe something good will come out of it if you target someone else. Toad, look at Grav and tell me how you don't see a scum. | ||
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On September 14 2012 05:33 Toadesstern wrote: acting confident in the thread as mafia and shooting the guy in the balls who claims to have a bomb on you are two very different things. Again, yes I'm a bold mafia player in general but that? Risking everything when I'm totally fine (assuming I'm mafia) with just shooting someone else who did not claim to have a bomb on me? You now know that Z-Boson is town because he flipped town but you think anyone would have considered lynching me after his post? Even if both Boson and I survived I wouldn't even look bad because of that so there's not a single reason for me to take that gamble that could possibly lose my team (still assuming I'm mafia) the game just on the whim that I'm thinking the guy is fakeclaiming. There's just no reason to shoot Boson from a mafia perspective if I am mafia. Not a single one that isn't overshadowed by massive drawbacks even if I considered it to be a fakeclaim while there is a shitton of reasoning for shooting Boson if I'm town. Just stop it, go scumhunt somewhere else. You won't find something at my place. I think MMT's continual harping on this subject is what he's using to substitute for actual scumhunting. He knows no one is going to ever lynch you, so his mislynching efforts will never see the light of day. That being said though, I think it's better that he dies tomorrow. Today is a day for Gravan. What do you think about him? | ||
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On September 14 2012 05:32 grush57 wrote: I think both are scum, but I'm more sure of a red flip from Mav How are you more sure of a red flip from Mav? | ||
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On September 14 2012 05:42 Toadesstern wrote: Yeah it's between Grav and Mav for me. Leaning on Grav right now. Mementoss is not going to get lynched and I don't want him to get lynched right now, probably not even tomorrow. Don't think a mafia would so violently tell everybody how I'm looking stupid when he in fact knows that I'm town. A mafia usually wants to be on the right side of things if possible without killing his allies and therefore I'd assume mafias to be the ones going easy on me or actually defending me in front of other people to look good later on. Now way I'm going to get him lynched :p Great. Let's get Grav lynched then. | ||
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On September 14 2012 05:57 Mementoss wrote: wat? I guess trying to kill scumaverick isnt considered scum hunting. I think im harping on the subject because people are sheeping so hard this game and refuse to do any thinking for themselves. I'm just bringing out the facts that thinking toad is town because of that could very well be getting blindsided. Also, wtf another set-up for the mislynch tomorrow. I was referring to your harping on Toad as useless, not your harping on Mav. My read on Mav is still gray, as I haven't finished reading his filter yet. | ||
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On September 14 2012 09:00 Maverick32x wrote: Read through the case on me- There is a LOT of tunneling going on.... Also why are people STILL bringing up Matt?? My 'soft defense' occurred prior to any confirmation that he was lying... once that was confirmed.. I switched. Simple enough. As for my "blaming the lurkers is an easy strategy"- There is something unique about those top 3 that I find is different than just 'lurking'.... there is something about the frequency of posts and the disappearance of them.... I know thats not the concrete answer you guys want, so I'll try to get some 'science' to back that feeling up. Voting me is a mistake. I am a plain boring vanilla town. I just really can't understand how ShiaoPi is not scum to more people? Okay, his 'timezone' presents as an issue to discussion.... and I'll even move past the lurking to be more specific in his posts. Lets bring it ALL the way back... He is backing up Matt's encouragement for others to claim. How is this LESS scummy than me soft defending someone who I didn't know I was lying? Right, Rewok's decision to do this sucks. Doesn't seem like Rewok and him are connected based off that post. I highlight this post mainly due to the relationship that is seen here. Both of these posts were made prior to Ottox's (town) death. ALSO, His statement of Ottox (town), Goodkarama(scum) and Milton (personally I think town) are leaning scum... but he 'excuses' Ottox.... LIKELY because he knows that Ottox is on the chopping block. Also, as pointed out previously, it is typical for scum to post a list, and sprinkle in scum buddies. Comments made about his lack of meta- these are covered up by "Internet problems" However, observations made about his meta. Him and lvdr are likely not connected- again, just another relationship point. Also, Hapa becomes his new target at this point. Similar to Ottox, he starts to pick up speed on targeting him. -He goes into a string of 1 liners at this point- likely due to my confrontation with him.- But then Hapa makes a decent post attacking him. On September 09 2012 12:44 Hapahauli wrote: 1) ShiaoPi has a reasonably active town-meta. ShiaoPi has no scum meta. 2) ShiaoPi is hardcore lurking this game, "internet issues" cited, but were not mentioned pre-game (odd, considering severity). His activity is very different from his 6 town games. He certainly hasn't posted anything that makes me think he's town. Some other newer players have posts that show effort, but ShiaoPi has shown none. As far as I'm concerned, the above makes him scummy. If he'd like to defend himself and convince me otherwise, he should take the opportunity to do so. Should I hold your hand too, or will that suffice? I don't want to post the WHOLE quote from Shiao- you can look it up, but again with an excuse of internet problems and a post pretty much just defending himself from Hapa who attacks him pretty hard.... Similar with Ottox- ShiaoPi decides to absolve Hapa and declare him TOWN. oh ya... Hapa dies that night..... .... .... ..... Seems similar to the Ottox? Ottox attacks him.. Dies... Hapa attacks him... Dies... Something tells me this is more than just a bad feeling.... Get your votes off me you dummies. Vote Scum. Vote ShiaoPi. MAVERICK OUT! Mav, that's actually a pretty interesting case. Can you look at Gravan too? | ||
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On September 14 2012 09:32 Maverick32x wrote: I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but sure... let me eat dinner... @Shiao- What? Your internet is working for the next 10 minutes magically after I post?? Sweeeet. I'm not being sarcastic. My read on you improved with that latest post. Now I want to see you apply your casework skills on Gravan. | ||
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On September 14 2012 09:21 ShiaoPi wrote: Good morning everyone, what is better than to have the day start with mav spewing non sense yet again? first quote you got is a blatant misinterpretation done from your side. BKE was asking possible nosy neighbours who might be self-aware (not possible as we know now) to not claim until they get checked. Which is dumb as that would then be also a freebie for scum to make that claim. Next up you obviously do not read the thread carefully...Milton is replaced by now with Kreb. So you are leaning town on a non-existant player? Well done! In regards to meta I answered it more than once, if you do not want to believe my explanations, fine, whatever. Your other points seem to be shitton of WIFOM in scum-motives for the nighthits... I am really unsure what the fuck you are on to see these posts + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2012 10:48 Ottoxlol wrote: nice post, off to sleep so you can lurk in peace for a while now On September 06 2012 07:17 Ottoxlol wrote: Toad is scum. Hapahauli confirmed my suspicions by his last post, he's purposely trying to skew the discussion. I think these two are defending their mates by not letting the Matt discussion go on -> the other 2 possibly are lurkers who voted on Matt with no real content. imallinson Z-BosoN Shady Sands DarthPunk ShiaoPi BlackMamba24 goodkarma all voted Matt after Palmar's announcment and provide little to no reasoning. Bad town or scum can easily be among them as attacks...he is just mentioning me as one of the lurkers, nothing exciting or new. In regards to hapa, well I had a (Correct) townread on him, he gets killed and I am to blame? Just because he attacked me? Why am I even answering you....it's kind of obvious that you are in tunnel-land, unlikely to ever come back and that you are reading everything with a ridiculous confirmation bias... Shiao, can you look at Grav? | ||
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On September 14 2012 20:04 Bill Murray wrote: tl;dr: let's lynch a lurker. It's Day 4. Why is this a good idea? | ||
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On September 14 2012 10:18 Maverick32x wrote: Doop-de-doop, I'll look at Grav. Before I dig into filters, my gut feeling of Grav is that he has been on the side lines throughout the game and that he's a new player. Passive. Very passive and apologetic. This sounds like subtle fear of being 'found out' (scummy) Wants to blend in. Still apologizing. Pretty bad first couple posts. This was my perspective as well when I played the Portal Mafia, which is making me wonder if a lot of this is kind of 'new town' sort of stuff? My perspective was "Kill everyone that is not town" I didn't care if you were 3rd party, 4th party or mafia.... if you weren't green... you needed to die. So his thought that- "Well, he's 3rd party, so we're good to lynch him" makes a lot of sense to me. He connects Ottox and Toad loosely... but I think he digs in a bit with his reads considering his post history. I ALMOST like this post. He target BM which is cool. Very straight forward, non-apologetic. The only problem is, its only because he's being called out and feels threatened. So again with the fear response. I like this post actually. It speaks to me well. I also am not up to speed on the "meta" of other players... This indicates to me that he really IS a new player.. trying to find his way and get the swing of things. He wants to put his thoughts out and get something going, but seems unclear as to how to do it. Okay, as I'm going through the filters from this point to the end of his page 1- he all of a sudden starts to pick up a LOT more momentum. He is being more assertive with his claims and is getting more involved. Here are some posts. Ok, this next post I think is REALLY important. This is something that I think he was TRYING to do early game. However, he kind of violates his own rule when he decided to turn on BM in an attempt to 'clear his name'. In fact- his quoted posts above clearly indicate that he felt he needed a counter argument... which was to point fingers to clear his name????? Other than that, he has started to contribute a lot more which I can relate to. I hate posting early in the game. It sucks. Its confusing. There are too many people talking. You have people like BM saying things like "This person is scum" and everyone just listens to them for seemingly NO reason... Now though- he is posting significantly differently than he was at the start.... Why would a scum INCREASE his posting.. when there are plenty of lurkers for him to hide amongst? He is putting himself out there in more assertive ways... This speaks more to Gravan's personality as a person.. probably awkward in groups- has to get to know people more before opening up...probably only has a few close friends.. etc etc... (Also yes, I am a therapist ha) tldr: Gravan appears to be a new player(town)- or a mafia pretending to be new.. and doing an absolutely awesome job at it. So your read is that Grav is either town or mafia? Which IS IT? Town or scum? | ||
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On September 14 2012 12:14 slOosh wrote: Guhh ... why do you guys wait until now to play properly? What Maverick did just now was a very very town thing. Feigning activity and making cases is easy. Calling the runner up lynch candidate town when you have the most votes is not. The only motivation to do that is that you are town, and you think this person is town. You can see that he doesn't value his specific survival over the town's interests. His case really shows his thinking process and also clarifies past contradictions (e.g. he left out Graven from his scum reads) - consistency like this is hard to setup as scum. Gravan ... it's really weird with him. As Maverick points out he is playing consistently (regardless of quality). I remember thinking he was newbie town making lots of mistakes, and it could be he is scummy because of this. Also strange is the nature of the maverick counter wagon. Still thinking this one through. ShiaoPi: his treatment of Mav is townish. Timezones are timezones. Select stuff in his filter make me think he is town and explain his actions but will not divulge unless there is a large enough body of evidence against him. This leaves me with two people: SnB has not cared at all about the past two lynches. You can see from his filter that he jumps on the Forumite lynch with little to contribute while also discrediting Rewok. He jumps on the maverick lynch with little to add and also makes sure people know that everyone could be scum ("MMT made the case on Mav but you never know maybe he is scum"). His latest posts are pure setup speculation. He treats Toad very strangely - I'm not sure if he thinks Toad might be scum and hunting for reactions or he is pretending to engage in meaningful conversation. Toad is someone who has flared up upon a proper reread of the Z-Boson mad hatter business. I originally thought him town after our little spat at the start of the game. However if you reread his filter carefully, you will notice that he uses "vet balance" to get Forumite lynched, but after that he says "oh I guess I was wrong, oh well". He seemed to taunt Z-boson near deadline and called for vig shots on him even if he was town because he would die anyway. I know I said mafia wouldn't kill a potential mad hatter but I forgot that there is a very good chance of a roleblocker in the game, as we still don't know about austin's 2nd shot. I find the explanations for his dismissal of SnB and BM to be beyond just strange, as he is ignoring possible scum on raw setup speculation. Thoughts please, we need to get this lynch right. Sloosh, I don't get your read on Gravan. Why is your view shifting to town? Also, why are you making town less focused and urging town to examine different candidates with less than 24 hours to go in the votecycle? Are you deliberately trying to spread the votes out so you and your scumbuddies can wagon better? | ||
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On September 14 2012 14:06 strongandbig wrote: We should be killing Mav today. He hasn't made a real read all game, and now comes out with a town-case on Gravan. We still don't have any scumhunting out of him, and town cases are easy for scum to make. I think he saw the writing on the wall and this is a ploy, and we shouldn't fall for it. It's not a case where the only motive was town; it's also very smart scum play, regardless of Gravan's alignment. A push on Gravan by Mav would just be dismissed, so this is his top option. Good point. But I think we should still lynch Grav first, and Mav later. My read on Mav has slipped into scum territory after his soft defense of Gravan. I don't understand why he would try so hard to cast Grav's actions in the light of being a newbie town... then at the very end say Grav is either town or scum trying to look newbie, and he can't tell which. Soft defense at its finest. | ||
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Gravan Maverick I also have a strong townread on SnB, and my previous townread on sloosh is slipping into null territory after his weak list above. | ||
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VOTE GRAV TODAY | ||
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On September 14 2012 09:05 grush57 wrote: HOW DARE YOU PUT FALSE LEADS WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE SCUM. Quit trolling. What are your reads on the situation? We have lynch candidates Mav and Grav. | ||
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On September 14 2012 20:13 Bill Murray wrote: As for ACTIVE players, I'd like to lynch Kreb. He flip flopped saying I'm town, then went to wanting to lynch me and grush... over our PLAYSTYLE? Seems like scum pushing policy as opposed to having any semblance of logic. He also wants to lynch Gravan, who, while I suspected early is still primarily a policy lynch... but days after it should have occurred, if it was going to. It just seems like he's sheeping the reads he picks up on in the thread on townies/Power Roles. in Kreb's scumhunting case, you don't see him focus on 1 candidate as a town role would, but rather highlight players black like scum would, as per hunting assassins. He does put players like myself and Gravan in red. Another point is his interaction with Austin. He was getting information off Austin in response to his read on me (which he flipflopped on in 10 minutes? get real), and Toad. It just feels really fishy. Sometimes, words fall short. Would love to lynch Kreb BM, I'm not sure why you're so certain that Grav is a policy lynch. As I've said before, he lies, he actively lurks, he sheeped a mislynch with super-poor reasoning--what else do you want? Furthermore, even if your view is that Kreb is scum, let Kreb wait until tomorrow. Today is for Grav, and we lynch the bastard. | ||
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On September 14 2012 20:18 Bill Murray wrote: Players like Grav/Rewok (who I was voting - and is probably ACTUALLY a scum lurker... idiot) are completely different as per lurker meta. Some lurkers are town and blue (like grav is) whereas Rewok is scum lurker (likely power role like scum vig/assassin) You think Grav is blue? | ||
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On September 14 2012 20:17 Bill Murray wrote: both are town. I'm not down to lynch either. Sit down. I'm not going to sit down until Grav gets lynched. Why do you think Grav is blue? | ||
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On September 14 2012 20:25 Bill Murray wrote: LOL @ SS reaction to me saying Grav is blue SS Knows I'm good at picking blues (with the vigilante callout on Austin) so he is trying to use me to decipher who he should nightkill. SS is totally scum. Nice rolefishing. Rolefishing, + pushing my posts off the page ... I snagged the top post of the page for town, though, so it's all good. Plus I got a little humor out of it with that Krebs-vote-psycheout. HEre is someone I've been wanting to lynch all game: ShadySands. I've voted him multiple times, it feels like, and he is completely, and obtusely against any semblance of confirmation. He has spoken out against me... BUT ASKS WHY I THINK GRAVAN IS BLUE... RESPECTING ME... and he has spoken out against Toad, who appears town to me. his buddies are Darth Punk, Sloosh, Krebs ##Vote: Shady Sands First off, I don't know you're good at picking blues. I've never played with you. Second, how does me asking you why you think Grav is blue relate to whether I would shoot him if I was scum? Wouldn't I just be interested in knowing that Grav was blue, without wondering why you thought of him as scum? So I ask again. Why do you think Grav is blue? I don't want to do a BKE mislynch, of course, but right now nothing he's done suggests to me he is a blue. Instead, how about you spend some of your time looking at Grav, and seeing how you can construe his actions as anything but scummy? | ||
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On September 14 2012 20:27 Bill Murray wrote: Forgot Gravan voted him. That makes two votes on SS, who is going to be flipping red, and bleeding it on our shoes, after we guillotine his neck into tiny little bits. viva le resistance! down with the mafia! all my men, come together! around me! BM, if you're town, you're doing a piss-poor job of actually scumhunting right now. All you've done over the past two pages is troll people and flip your reactions around like crazy, making yourself basically unreadable. Scum don't need to read you to know whether you're town or not. Town does need to read you to know whether you are town or not. So shape up your posting. | ||
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On September 14 2012 21:04 Bill Murray wrote: My only answer is, as town ... which I guess there is a farfetched chance you are... you need to not rolefish. It makes you look like scum, which is why my vote is on you. I haven't felt this strongly about a vote since I was voting Mattchew for slipping. Well I'm not rolefishing Grav, if that's what you're concerned about. I'm dead certain he's scum and I'm trying to convince you. However, so far your justification for not voting him simply consists of "he's blue". That's why I'm asking you why you think he's blue. | ||
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On September 14 2012 21:03 Bill Murray wrote: ShadySands, you're spamming even more than me, so don't tell me to shape up my posting The difference is I called you out on it first, so you're parroting. Add that to flipflopping, plus your spam being strategical in natural (whereas mine is meta as town), and you're facing a solid case Shady, you know why I'm voting you; you're scum. I'm not critiquing you for spamming, I'm critiquing you for trolling. There's a difference. Trolling is when you post with no intent of seriousness. It's what you and GRush have been doing all game. It makes you unreadable. That's anti-town. | ||
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On September 14 2012 21:16 Bill Murray wrote: I don't troll. You rolefished. You failed my RXN test RXN? And let's not detract from the original question: Why do you think Grav is blue? or better yet Why do you think Grav is not scum? | ||
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On September 14 2012 21:28 Bill Murray wrote: you mean your rolefishing, one of my 3-4 reasons for voting you? like where you failed the reaction by posting that? i don't know he's blue. I was seeing if you would rolefish. you did. get over it. You're dodging my question. You said Gravan was town and blue. So: Why do you think Gravan is blue? AKA Why do you think he is not town? | ||
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On September 14 2012 21:29 Toadesstern wrote: dude, that's totally not working if I announced it yesterday Toad, read over the recent debate between BM and I. BM says Gravan is town and blue; when I ask him why, he accuses me of rolefishing. | ||
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On September 14 2012 21:43 Bill Murray wrote: ^he just megaslipped here he's scum and bluefishing. he just said "blue" means "not town" LOL How is this bluefishing? You said he was blue. I am asking you why you think he is blue. also, great job picking up on a typo. Obviously "blue" should mean "not scum". | ||
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On September 14 2012 21:46 Toadesstern wrote: I read it and he's right you are. I doubt you'd be rolefishing so openly as mafia though. Obviously a mafia would want to know whether the townie (assuming you are mafia and BM is town) is right or just found some bullshit to figure out if a kill is on *supposed to be blue* is needed or good. I'd say a mafia is going to read the filter or tell his buddies about it so that they read it (because people are lazy). Townies sadly end up rolefishing quite a lot in games because they think that will somehow improve their reads on someone or they think that everything somehow makes sense once you figured that out. So I'm not giving to much into you rolefishing although you are. Toad, how am I rolefishing? I've been pushing a Grav wagon for 20+ hours now, and BM said we shouldn't lynch Grav because he is blue. I went in and asked why he thought Grav was blue, because if BM doesn't give me any reasons why he thinks Grav is blue AKA not scum, then how can I persuade BM that Grav is scum? | ||
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On September 14 2012 21:49 Bill Murray wrote: how is this bluefishing? You answered: you were asking me why I think he is blue... LOL a typo, you say? so you're admitting you slipped... good. Oh, wait, you're making EXCUSES. FRY. How is asking you why you think someone is blue rolefishing? I asked you why you thought he was blue because I pushed you to lynch him and you said no because he was town and blue without any further justification. | ||
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Shady Sands
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On September 14 2012 21:48 Bill Murray wrote: Did you just say You said blue... "gravan is blue?" into really... Really? Mattchew 2.0, except this time it is subconsciously a slip on his part, as opposed to Mattchew derping at this point, from your alls perspective A.) BM is trolling 1. that's what scum want you to believe a. because it is a case from town b. because it is a case on scum 2. I don't troll, so cross out A. on your list/self-meta a. self meta is unreliable? . it is a player to player basis . my self meta is reliable B.)BM caught/forced Shady Sands to slip *please pick me!!* C.) BM is bussing ShadySands 1. I don't bus a. see 2. a. 2. If I was to bus, I would pick someone less active/with a bad thread image a. Shady Sands actually has a good thread image b. Shady Sands is active However, logically, this should prove I am not trolling, and that I honestly feel he not only failed my reaction test, but then slipped in deciphering blue = not town to him, and in his mind he's trying to act town, so thus his logical flaw of "im mafia... im not town" versus his in thread of "i'm town, u guise" clashed into this atrocity of him saying blue=not town. BM Again. Why do you think Gravan is not scum? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Why do you think Gravan is not scum AKA Why do you think Gravan is blue AKA Why shouldn't we lynch Gravan? These are all equivalent questions, and to make this some attempt to rolefish is just stupid. Given that you're a mafia vet you should know better. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 14 2012 21:55 Bill Murray wrote: He could easily be scum at this point, and me still think you slipped. I'm leaning on him, actually, which is why I don't mind if he gets lynched at all (better if Rewok is going to be modkilled than a Rewok wagon) I just feel he has a role as opposed to being townie (see: mementoss's reaction) Whoooooaaa. You said: Some lurkers are town and blue (like grav is) whereas Rewok is scum lurker (likely power role like scum vig/assassin) Now you say I'm leaning on him, actually, which is why I don't mind if he gets lynched at all and He could easily be scum at this point, and me still think you slipped What the heck? So why was your read originally town and blue on Grav and "could easily be scum at this point" when Grav hasn't made a single post in the interim? ebwop What the heck? So why was your read originally town and blue on Grav but now is "could easily be scum at this point" when Grav hasn't made a single post in the interim? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 14 2012 21:56 Toadesstern wrote: Well that kind of is the definition of bluefishing. Let's assume BM really found something. You're trying to make him tell you what he found, so you can not only figure out whether or not he's right but also what kind of blue he is because a "blueslip" or whatever else made BM think he's blue is usually very specific. Sure claiming someone else is borderline retarded as well if you really think so but as this seemed to be a joke I don't care enough to get into details on that one. I don't really see the problem here to be honest, which is the reason I didn't post about it until asked: Shady thinks Gravan is mafia BM thinks Shady slipped and accidently told people his buddy Gravan is mafia and not town. Seems to me like we should lynch Gravan and decide wether or not that typo was a slip or just some bullshit later on. Got it. So if someone says he thinks someone else is blue, we should just never question him, because that's anti-town rolefishing? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Whoooooaaa. You said: Now you say and What the heck? So why was your read originally town and blue on Grav and "could easily be scum at this point" when Grav hasn't made a single post in the interim? the ebwop was the last sentence So why was your read originally town and blue on Grav but now is "could easily be scum at this point" when Grav hasn't made a single post in the interim? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 14 2012 22:06 Toadesstern wrote: If someone says he thinks someone else is blue people should ignore him because he's either playing borderline anti-town himself, or he's mafia, or he's trolling for WHATEVER reason. Curiosity is a bitch and gets in peoples way no matter of alignment though Oh, okay. I thought BM was using that blue read as a way to keep people from lynching Grav, which is why I wanted to question it. Instead, I'll ask BM this then: Why do we not lynch Grav? (Aside from the fact that you think he has a power role) | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 14 2012 22:46 Bill Murray wrote: It is a reaction test. Gravan is possibly blue, and is so in 33% of the scenarios I can think of However, you are 100% scum, Shady Sands You said Gravan was town and blue, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. No possibly, nothing like that. So the question is: why do we not lynch Gravan? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Wow. Did not see that coming. Reading SnB filter | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Look at this case SnB made on mav made during the time when people were still deciding between Grav and Mav for the critical lynch vote. On September 14 2012 01:20 strongandbig wrote: I'm voting for maverickx. Out of the cases so far, the one on him (redone recently by mementoss) has by far the most meat to it. I don't have a town read on gravan like I do on grush and billmurray, so I'd be willing to consolidate on him, but the case on him just feels too "wtf where is he" without enough "also this is why he's scum." I think compared to those two, mementoss isn't a great lynch for today since he seems to have started giving a fuck. However, that could just be him being scum and realizing that he has to start giving a fuck or die. But I think mav is the best lynch out of those today. ##vote: maverickx SnB picks Mav over the other lynch targets when he could have easily piled on some of the other wagons (notably Grav.) I don't think a scum would bus a partner in that sort of situation. Second, after rereading his filter, I think I fucked up when I thought SnB was endorsing a Grav wagon. It's clear from his words above that he wasn't endorsing the Grav wagon--rather he was soft defending grav while leaving his option open. Therefore SnB's flip is mostly null towards Grav. Two people SnB's flip do cast significant scumminess on, however, are me and Toad. The next post will look at us both. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Lol I made this post as I was browsing through the last page of the thread. Did not notice the Night post. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Based on this assassin read, Toad has used this as an excuse for himself to not pressure S&B or even mention him in the thread. + Show Spoiler [evidence] + On September 11 2012 01:21 Toadesstern wrote: Let's be honest here: I think if we lynch into one of either Forumite, S&B, BM or Z-Boson we're going to hit "not-townie" all the way. That's the reason I didn't want to talk about S&B because I suspected him to be an Assassin (you're welcome \o/ ). If BM is Mafia Foru's got to be an Assassin (again, you're welcome \o/ ) and isn't actually mafia himself. Foru basicly claimed he's playing cautious on purpose so that fits the Assassin as well. Z-Boson and BM have some weird connection this day. I really don't like how Boson gets in here telling people BM is confirmed because of the blue thing, on top of that he instantly finds another breadcrumb BM apparently did and the knowledge BM had about austin is supposed to make him somehow town when there's no way mafia would have shot a vig n1, even if they knew about one. So if you take them all apart I'd be all up for lynching Forumite today. If we're considering them as a whole I'd rather lynch Z-Boson. I mentioned S&B as well but as I said, he's probably Assassin so noone should care about him right now unless we see another 3rd party flip and he's still kicking. On September 13 2012 19:57 Toadesstern wrote: I said either BM or Foru are mafia later on. Something like d2, n2 or d3 I guess? So that one would be the more updated read on BM but not sure if that still holds. It was based on the "there has to be a mafia vet" assumption and forumite flipping green (=neither red nor black) pretty much destroyed that, or at least it now has an interesting twist to it: As far as I know we don't actually know whether we've got Assassins in this game or not. If we have some it's highly likely that BM and S&B are those Assassins because hosts don't usually give 3rd party roles to new guys because they're hard to play. If that's the case we obviously don't have a mafia within those 2. If we don't have Assassins to begin with we probably still have a mafia within those 2. Not sure I want to take that gamble today. Then shortly before he leaves, he tries to narrow town's options to anyone but S&B. 30 more minutes until I've got to leave. Shady Sands or Gravan? That's more than three times over the past 2 votecycles. During (and before) those 2 votecycles, Toad was pushing BKE, Z-Boson, and Forumite, all of whom flipped town or blue. Furthermore, look at who has questioned Toad over the game: BKE Hapa Z-Boson Notice a pattern? They're all dead. TLDR: Toad has soft-defended S&B for awhile, pushed three straight townies for lynches, and anyone who made substantive cases on him has been NK'd. Now onto my post about S&B. I made that in the heat of the moment in my effort to get Gravan lynched. In retrospect, it looks scummy and stupid. That being said, I misread what S&B wrote about Gravan--I thought he was agreeing that Gravan was scum, when it is apparent now that S&B was actually soft-defending him. Since I thought at the time that Gravan was scum, anyone who came out before a lynch was inevitable on Gravan and made noises about lynching him earned town points in my book. Now that S&B has flipped scum, I retract that and I think Gravan is just a bad town who other scum tried to latch upon. Grav's behavior, in particular, over the past few hours has been very townie and returns my read on him to null. I have a few other players who look scummy to me: Rewok ShiaoPi Mementoss DarthPunk I'm going to be looking through their filters and will get something out before the daypost. Final note: in case this isn't obvious already, S&B lynch should serve as strong town-tells for Sloosh and Hopeless1der. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
## Vote Toadesstern | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 15 2012 08:22 Gravan wrote: This really feels like scummy backtracking to me. Nothing that you used against me in your 'case' has changed. You haven't interacted with my defending myself at all - I think that you were hoping that by ignorning it i would get lynched anyway. I really think you are trying to sweep your previous actions and suspicions under the rug, and changing them to whatever is convienent at the time. Other people have voiced some opinions on toad, so you are latchig right on. Grav, read page 109 and 110. I said the S&B flip makes Toad and me look bad miles before anyone else started talking about Toad. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 15 2012 08:29 Kreb wrote: For now I have to agree on Toad with his continous attempts to paint S&B as an assassin does not look very well for him. If so, that makes his Z-Boson night kill rather ballsy, I guess he called the bluff. Scum has been pushing ballsy play all game long (Mattchew). Anyhow: [b[If we are to believe Toad, then a townie vig somehow sniped GK.[/b] Hence my vote is going to stick on Toad unless a townie vig comes forward and claims for the GK nightkill. (Needless to say don't claim until after the Daypost.) | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:42 Toadesstern wrote: Translation: He's willing to put everything on a coinflip. If Austin was the vig who shot GK and a mafia-vig (or another town vig) shot Ottox he is going to vote me because there's no (possible) claim. If Austin wasn't the vig who shot GK he's willing to think about not voting me. LoL This is what Austin said about the Ottox NK: On September 08 2012 23:41 austinmcc wrote: This. GK as suicide bomber could still deliver a kill. And if you're scum and you lose mattchew D1, you're suiciding GK N1, you're 100% gonna use him as a shooter because he can't get caught delivering a kill, he's gonna be dead. We're basically narrowed down to BM24 being double stacked and BKE lying OR BM24 single shot, BKE watcher, and a medic save. Unless mafia shot Ottoxlol, which seems...unlikely. I'm pretty sure Grush wasn't the only one doing that. Toad did it at one point (or multiple points), everyone and their mother discussed vigi shots on half the town. Morning laziness means I'm not finding those quotes for you, but I'm almost certain there were a decent number of similar posts, but less concise. Bolded for emphasis. I'm almost willing to consider that a soft-claim for the Ottox NK. It's something other people in the thread also picked up on. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
So yeah. Unless a vig claims they hit GK night 1, you've gotta be scum. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 16 2012 02:40 Hopeless1der wrote: Not entirely true, which it seems MMT has figured out. Seriously, learn to read the setup you guys. Way too much false information floating around this game. Actually just finished reading MMT's filter. Yeah, his explanation makes more sense. Still doesn't detract from the fact that Toad's claim looks fake. Ergo, kill Toad. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
BC was killed by GK submitting mafia KP BM24 was killed by mafia KP GK suicided into Ottox Austinmc shot someone with medic protection or with bulletproof, or he himself was roleblocked? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
What's important is the case on him revolving around his soft defense of SnB, as well as how he went pretty much awol/apathetic over the final few hours of the heated D4 lynch. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
I also looked through BM's filter and I found him conspicuously absent during the SnB wagon. He didn't even mention SnB until after the lynch was over. All he did was pressure Hopeless1der, who, as we know, dropped the hammer on SnB and should be considered town. While it doesn't push my read on him clearly into scum territory, it is the first clear read he's given out all game long, since the rest of his filter consists of trolling. Hence, ##FoS Bill Murray If Toad dies tonight, I'm going to push for a lynch on him. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 16 2012 05:01 slOosh wrote: Yea I dunno how you gonna backtrack on this one Shady. "weak list" you say? It's not something you can really respond to that well, so here's the followup question. Can you point out said posts, and how they are "very townie", and only return him to null? Cause I think you're bluffing. And scum. And tomorrow's lynch. Sloosh, like I said, I misread what SnB wrote to be an endorsement of a Grav lynch. Hence my read shifted towards town. After rereading his post, it's clear he didn't even mean that. Had I read it correctly my read on him would have been null, at the most. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 16 2012 06:30 Toadesstern wrote: You consider me to be mafia. If that's the case: Why should I die tonight? I'm not going to kill myself if I'm mafia. Unless of course you believe my claim is true and there really is a 2nd vig, which you just told me a couple of hours ago is almost impossible according to you. So if there's no 2nd vig and I'm mafia, how am I supposed to die tonight? When did I say there was no 2nd vig? I said that your roleclaim is untestable since we don't know whether there is or there isn't a 2nd vig. Hence my above statement: If Toad dies tonight, I'm going to push for a lynch on him. Note the word "If". | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
First, I am vanilla town. Second, I supported SnB because, again, I thought he was supporting my effort to lynch Grav, who I thought was scum. I found it unlikely at the time that scum would bus a partner when the outcome of the lynch was still very much up in the air, so that's why I got a townread off SnB. Third, I'd like town to take a good look at two people who supported me on the Grav lynch as possible suspects. ShiaoPi Darthpunk All of them have soft defended my scummy behavior in the prior days, and tried to redirect town around while remaining scummy and quiet. Now both are bussing me quick after ImAllinson started the wagon on me. Fourth, town please take a look at Allinson's filter as well. These are the flipped scum whose interactions might be useful for town to read through: GK SnB (Mattchew doesn't count as I think all the scum were trying not to interact with him until after Palmar came down with his ruling--then they probably bussed him like crazy.) Sorry I can't be more of a help this game--work/IRL stuff has caught up. Gotta show my mom around Chicago later this afternoon and celebrate my birthday tonight, then spend most of the later evening using my primary school Mandarin skills to talk to potential investors during China daylight hours. Good luck town. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
glhf town =) | ||
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