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On September 08 2012 10:18 Forumite wrote:
@Toades
After the D2-post you said you didn´t like the case on me provided by Hapless and Hapa, but you still thought I was probably scum. The only reason I remember was elimination, out of the people you stated are vets they are either dead or me, and those who died flipped town. Is that your case, "There should be scum among the vets, and now that some flipped town, the living ones are probably scum"? Because it´s a very convenient thing to say for scum, if people say there must be scum in a group, then scum kill half the group if it´s full of town, and leave it alone if there´s a scum in it so their buddy can hide better. I´m not saying that´s what happened, but it´s shaky to claim this early in a game that the last survivor of a group of must be scum event though the others flipped town.
Apart from that you said you thought I wasn´t as aggressive as usual. Partly that is because I don´t keep myself as updated as I usually do due to more stuff happening IRL than usual, but I also don´t want to make the mistake I did in DF-Mafia.
Anyway you need more reasons to you call me scum. What is it?
I said the main aspect I'm getting from you out of this game is you playing cautious, right? Just take that post of yours for example:
Because it´s a very convenient thing to say for scum, if people say there must be scum in a group, then scum kill half the group if it´s full of town, and leave it alone if there´s a scum in it so their buddy can hide better. I´m not saying that´s what happened, but it´s shaky to claim this early in a game that the last survivor of a group of must be scum event though the others flipped town.
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On September 08 2012 16:06 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 15:58 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Guys this lynch is not happening. Its like 12:00 PST I'll make a good case in the morning, but Im forced to say Im Watcher. Night One I visited BC and got back GK -_-. Shouldn't you have also gotten back Blackmamba as well? Or was Black not concurrently killed by the suicide bomber?
He's saying:
Blackmamba got targeted by the Suicider
BC got shot by GK only
If DrH had visited BC and got killed by the suicider as well he himself would have died as well for visiting BC. Therefore that's not an option.
So we've got 3 problems with that claim imo:- It gives us nothing. Anyone could have done that claim
- supposedly DrH got targeted by a suicide bomber. I would have guessed mafia are trying to kill watchers / medics and therefore targeted BC with the suicide bomber. But that's just my take on who looked better n1
- Supposedly mafia only used 1KP yesterday. BC got killed by suicidebomber. I hiiiiighly doubt ottox was a mafiahit and think he was hit by town, which leaves us with DrH. But According to BKE only one guy visited him and he did not get doublestacked. Neither do we have a claim from someone else who got protected or shot n1. So one shot is missing
Something's fishy here.
##vote BKE
Only got like 3 more hours time right now. I'm going to have friends at my place again and it's possible I'm going to miss the deadline so if there's something important tell me NOW.
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On September 08 2012 23:14 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 16:06 Shady Sands wrote:On September 08 2012 15:58 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Guys this lynch is not happening. Its like 12:00 PST I'll make a good case in the morning, but Im forced to say Im Watcher. Night One I visited BC and got back GK -_-. Shouldn't you have also gotten back Blackmamba as well? Or was Black not concurrently killed by the suicide bomber? He's saying:BC got targeted by the Suicider Blackmamba got shot by GK onlyIf DrH had visited BC and got killed by the suicider as well he himself would have died as well for visiting BC. Therefore that's not an option. So we've got 3 problems with that claim imo: - It gives us nothing. Anyone could have done that claim
- supposedly DrH got targeted by a suicide bomber. I would have guessed mafia are trying to kill watchers / medics and therefore targeted BC with the suicide bomber. But that's just my take on who looked better n1
- Supposedly mafia only used 1KP yesterday. BC got killed by suicidebomber. I hiiiiighly doubt ottox was a mafiahit and think he was hit by town, which leaves us with DrH. But According to BKE only one guy visited him and he did not get doublestacked. Neither do we have a claim from someone else who got protected or shot n1. So one shot is missing
Something's fishy here. ##vote BKEOnly got like 3 more hours time right now. I'm going to have friends at my place again and it's possible I'm going to miss the deadline so if there's something important tell me NOW.
EBWOP
mixed the names up, sry
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oh god, still mixed up... you know what I am talking about right?^^
BM can't be the target of the suicide bomber because if that'd be the case BKE would be dead by now as well, if his claim is legit.
Therefore BC was targeted by the suicide bomber according to BKE and BM got shot by a single mafia hit, which is incredible weird.
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On September 08 2012 23:37 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 23:17 Toadesstern wrote:
oh god, still mixed up... you know what I am talking about right?^^
BM can't be the target of the suicide bomber because if that'd be the case BKE would be dead by now as well, if his claim is legit.
Therefore BC was targeted by the suicide bomber according to BKE and BM got shot by a single mafia hit, which is incredible weird. I thought Watcher wasn't affected by suicide bomber? Anyhow, if your interpretation of the rules is true, that just makes BKE's claim even less likely to be true.
Why should a watcher not be affected by the suicide bomber?
OP
You are Crazy. Blow shit up man, that's what you do. You one night in the game suicide into another player. That player will die, regardless of protection, and everyone who visits that player that night will be killed unless protected. You can in addition perform one KP on behalf of the mafia every night, including the night you suicide.
everyone who visits that player reads to me as everyone. Or was there something I'm missing?
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On September 08 2012 23:41 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 23:15 Toadesstern wrote:
Supposedly mafia only used 1KP yesterday. BC got killed by suicidebomber. I hiiiiighly doubt ottox was a mafiahit and think he was hit by town, which leaves us with DrH. But According to BKE only one guy visited him and he did not get doublestacked. Neither do we have a claim from someone else who got protected or shot n1. So one shot is missing
This. GK as suicide bomber could still deliver a kill. And if you're scum and you lose mattchew D1, you're suiciding GK N1, you're 100% gonna use him as a shooter because he can't get caught delivering a kill, he's gonna be dead. We're basically narrowed down to BM24 being double stacked and BKE lying OR BM24 single shot, BKE watcher, and a medic save. Unless mafia shot Ottoxlol, which seems...unlikely.
Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 23:29 Shady Sands wrote:Other than BKE, my other main read is GRush. It starts here: On September 06 2012 07:50 grush57 wrote:
K.
Medics on Toad and BC and BM.
Vigi kill in the pool of scummy people/ scummylurkers.
Ex: Ottox, Maverick, Do you has.
This comes before GK suicide bombs into BC/BM. To me it almost sounds like he was trying to draw a blue into the bombing. I'm pretty sure Grush wasn't the only one doing that. Toad did it at one point (or multiple points), everyone and their mother discussed vigi shots on half the town. Morning laziness means I'm not finding those quotes for you, but I'm almost certain there were a decent number of similar posts, but less concise.
If a medic had saved someone (scenario would be: BC got suicide bombed, BM got shot with 1KP, someone else got shot and protected for 1KP) we would have had some guy claiming the hit though, wouldn't we?
Any yes you're correct, I said something along those lines as well. I said I want medics on BC+myself.
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On September 08 2012 23:49 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 23:46 Toadesstern wrote:
If a medic had saved someone (scenario would be: BC got suicide bombed, BM got shot with 1KP, someone else got shot and protected for 1KP) we would have had some guy claiming the hit though, wouldn't we? I hope not. No offense to BKE, but if the medic claims then it's a bad deal. Medic backs up BKE's claim; we don't mislynch BKE. We get an almost confirmed town in the medic's target, scum gets a medic and a watcher identified. We could still mislynch today even after all that. It's a bad trade. If we had a medic save, from a medic who possibly got an intelligent protect N1 and might get some more, guy should stay quiet. Scum comes out ahead in that trade, because they get lots of blue info whereas town just goes from a definite mislynch to a maybe mislynch with the next target.
Not the medic is supposed to claim. The guy who got hit should claim being hit, if there is someone like that to begin with.
That doesn't reveal the medic. It gives an almost confirmed townie for the medics point of view and a decent town read for everyone else judging the guy.
There's no reason not to claim being hit as a townie, therefore I'd say there was noone being hit and we've got another screw up lol.
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oh that's right. Could be there's no notifications at all. But if that's the case the medic wouldn't even know himself and as you mentioned that really would be out of the ordinary.
However, I still consider it weird that BM24 was suicide bombed and not BC according to BKE.
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On September 09 2012 00:11 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 00:07 Toadesstern wrote:
oh that's right. Could be there's no notifications at all. But if that's the case the medic wouldn't even know himself and as you mentioned that really would be out of the ordinary.
However, I still consider it weird that BM24 was suicide bombed and not BC according to BKE. Agreed. That claim does not make BKE look any less scummy imo. What do you think about GRush?
On September 08 2012 06:52 Toadesstern wrote:
grush is mafia. BKE's probably; if BKE's not mafia it's probably foru?
But I had almost no time today as friends came over so I'll have to reread things tomorrow. Haven't even read what happened the last 4 hours so far except for an incredible fast read.
hasn't changed that much.
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On September 09 2012 00:26 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 00:21 Shady Sands wrote:
Thanks.
Ergo, we have no way to verify BKE's claim... Right. Either he's a watcher OR he chose a fakeclaim so bad it could be disproven pretty much by flips alone. And it wasn't a pressure claim, he was getting called out all yesterday, then claimed while nobody was doing anything. I'm currently believing the claim since it seems like a giant risk to take when you're already down 2. Heck, why go with a terrible fake claim when you could name anything?
BM, where you at? We discussed scum having/not having some sort of leader earlier. I'd like to hear your updated thoughts. Ottoxlol flipped town, so it's not a case where mattchew/ottox/gravan all messed up and looked scummy D1. 2 vets died, so they're not options as some sort of mafia general, commanding the troops. Now we've got this BKE claim. Do you believe that claim? Are there players you could see saying, "hey you, go make a terrible fakeclaim that's so bad people will have trouble thinking it's from scum"? I don't see BKE, if scum, going that route, because you don't really gain anything compared to a better fake claim.
Well he kind of is about to be lynched. Sure it's a risk if you're already down by 2 but what other options do you have? Not claim and getting lynched without saying a word surely isn't going to improve the situation for his team either if he's mafia.
I just really don't buy the "BM24 was the guy being suicide bombed" thing at all.
And on the I don't see him going for this claim instead of a better one as mafia: There really isn't a lot.
Tracker and Watcher are almost impossible to claim unless you do it the way he did it. If we let him survive to prove his claim he can just call being rb-ed all game long (you don't get notifications but the RB still happens so you probably get SOMETHING back like "no result")
Vig is the easiest fakeclaim ever for mafia, mad hatter is pretty much impossible to prove as well.
Claiming Medic and Jailer sucks for obvious reasons.
There really isn't a good alternative for mafia in this game.
oh and I haven't actually voted yet so
##vote: BKE
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I'm thinking about this claim and I've got to say I don't like lynching BKE right now although I said otherwise an hour ago before thinking this trough.
It just really doesn't make sense right now. The only thing I dislike about BKE's claim is that he claims BM24 was suicide bombed and not BC because I consider BC more likely to be the target, but BM24 being the target isn't out of the ordinary that much.
On top of that with Palmars statement it really could be he's telling the truth and if something like:
Suicide vs BM24
1KP vs BC
1KP vs other vet (myself, maybe Foru or whoever else) or someone being really active (not going to call names here for obvious reasons) who got protected isn't that unlikely at all.
The thing about late switches is they almost always turn out bad because they're not thought through and mafia has an easy time to manipulate. I'm pretty sure that either Shady or Grush is mafia right now and I could see both flipping red (though not both), so we could go for either of those two but as mentioned, those things really go wrong all the time...
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On September 09 2012 01:13 DarthPunk wrote:Wait. There is more. When I just posted in the Voting thread it seems as If he has unvoted BKE and moved to Shady despite posting that BKE was the best candidate. The reasoning? Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 00:41 grush57 wrote:On September 09 2012 00:36 Shady Sands wrote:On September 09 2012 00:31 grush57 wrote:
When I was scum in LVI this scenario happened to BKE. However, BKE is the best candidate right now. Why? Shady Sands is scum people. Doesn't hop on me till Toad makes a case, ASKS other people's opinion on it and ask if its good, and now he asks me why. WHY U SAY. BECASUE....................................................................................................... This kid is suspicious as hell. BKE. Please read my case on grush and give me your thoughts. I am delaying bed for a bit because I think lynching a blue claim is a huge mistake and would like to find and consolidate another candidate.
exactly. That vote grush did is incredible bad. It's meaningless at this point of time, especially given his explanation.
On top of that it's not committing at all.
What kind of townie would go around throwing his vote away like that?
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On September 09 2012 01:21 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 01:15 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm thinking about this claim and I've got to say I don't like lynching BKE right now although I said otherwise an hour ago before thinking this trough.
It just really doesn't make sense right now. The only thing I dislike about BKE's claim is that he claims BM24 was suicide bombed and not BC because I consider BC more likely to be the target, but BM24 being the target isn't out of the ordinary that much.
On top of that with Palmars statement it really could be he's telling the truth and if something like:
Suicide vs BM24
1KP vs BC
1KP vs other vet (myself, maybe Foru or whoever else) or someone being really active (not going to call names here for obvious reasons) who got protected isn't that unlikely at all.
The thing about late switches is they almost always turn out bad because they're not thought through and mafia has an easy time to manipulate. I'm pretty sure that either Shady or Grush is mafia right now and I could see both flipping red (though not both), so we could go for either of those two but as mentioned, those things really go wrong all the time... It Is also bad to potentially mislynch a watcher. I would rather mislynch a VT then a Watcher. If that is the worst consequence from mafia manipulation. So be it.
Of course it's bad to lynch a watcher but we can't consider that a reason to not lynch him and have to take both lynching a VT and a Watcher as equally bad.
If we don't we're giving mafia the easiest time ever to just get in here "LOL I'm a mad hatter" and everyone insta unvotes because of something that can't be proven at all.
That being said I still dislike the BKE lynch right now and would prefere a grush lynch.
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On September 09 2012 01:32 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 01:27 Toadesstern wrote:On September 09 2012 01:21 DarthPunk wrote:On September 09 2012 01:15 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm thinking about this claim and I've got to say I don't like lynching BKE right now although I said otherwise an hour ago before thinking this trough.
It just really doesn't make sense right now. The only thing I dislike about BKE's claim is that he claims BM24 was suicide bombed and not BC because I consider BC more likely to be the target, but BM24 being the target isn't out of the ordinary that much.
On top of that with Palmars statement it really could be he's telling the truth and if something like:
Suicide vs BM24
1KP vs BC
1KP vs other vet (myself, maybe Foru or whoever else) or someone being really active (not going to call names here for obvious reasons) who got protected isn't that unlikely at all.
The thing about late switches is they almost always turn out bad because they're not thought through and mafia has an easy time to manipulate. I'm pretty sure that either Shady or Grush is mafia right now and I could see both flipping red (though not both), so we could go for either of those two but as mentioned, those things really go wrong all the time... It Is also bad to potentially mislynch a watcher. I would rather mislynch a VT then a Watcher. If that is the worst consequence from mafia manipulation. So be it. Of course it's bad to lynch a watcher but we can't consider that a reason to not lynch him and have to take both lynching a VT and a Watcher as equally bad. If we don't we're giving mafia the easiest time ever to just get in here "LOL I'm a mad hatter" and everyone insta unvotes because of something that can't be proven at all. That being said I still dislike the BKE lynch right now and would prefere a grush lynch. Hmm I hadn't thought of that. In my last game The scummiest player claimed vig after a vig shot. He was so scummy no one believed him and he was lynched, In the obs QT Marv said that lynching blue claims was something newbies loved to do. I understand your point about all scum making easy claims. But this wagon smells. Grush smells. I skimmed through the thread and alarm bells started blaring in my head.
well yeah I agree. I really don't like the situation we're in right now. Lynching BKE sounds really stupid right now and I don't like Grush's attitude at all.
I'm going to vote for Grush. I've still got about an hour left before I have to go so let's see what we can do and whether or not it's possible.
##vote Grush
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On September 09 2012 01:36 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 01:35 Toadesstern wrote:On September 09 2012 01:32 DarthPunk wrote:On September 09 2012 01:27 Toadesstern wrote:On September 09 2012 01:21 DarthPunk wrote:On September 09 2012 01:15 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm thinking about this claim and I've got to say I don't like lynching BKE right now although I said otherwise an hour ago before thinking this trough.
It just really doesn't make sense right now. The only thing I dislike about BKE's claim is that he claims BM24 was suicide bombed and not BC because I consider BC more likely to be the target, but BM24 being the target isn't out of the ordinary that much.
On top of that with Palmars statement it really could be he's telling the truth and if something like:
Suicide vs BM24
1KP vs BC
1KP vs other vet (myself, maybe Foru or whoever else) or someone being really active (not going to call names here for obvious reasons) who got protected isn't that unlikely at all.
The thing about late switches is they almost always turn out bad because they're not thought through and mafia has an easy time to manipulate. I'm pretty sure that either Shady or Grush is mafia right now and I could see both flipping red (though not both), so we could go for either of those two but as mentioned, those things really go wrong all the time... It Is also bad to potentially mislynch a watcher. I would rather mislynch a VT then a Watcher. If that is the worst consequence from mafia manipulation. So be it. Of course it's bad to lynch a watcher but we can't consider that a reason to not lynch him and have to take both lynching a VT and a Watcher as equally bad. If we don't we're giving mafia the easiest time ever to just get in here "LOL I'm a mad hatter" and everyone insta unvotes because of something that can't be proven at all. That being said I still dislike the BKE lynch right now and would prefere a grush lynch. Hmm I hadn't thought of that. In my last game The scummiest player claimed vig after a vig shot. He was so scummy no one believed him and he was lynched, In the obs QT Marv said that lynching blue claims was something newbies loved to do. I understand your point about all scum making easy claims. But this wagon smells. Grush smells. I skimmed through the thread and alarm bells started blaring in my head. well yeah I agree. I really don't like the situation we're in right now. Lynching BKE sounds really stupid right now and I don't like Grush's attitude at all. I'm going to vote for Grush. I've still got about an hour left before I have to go so let's see what we can do and whether or not it's possible. ##vote Grush Alright, let's get this wagon going. ##Vote Grush
god why are you calling it a wagon. You're giving me the worst paranoia ever right now
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I actually don't believe z-boson read the game I was talking about (LI). That shit of a game had about 130 pages of bullshit by the end of d2 if I remember correctly :p
No way someone would force himself into reading THAT.
About the watcher question: I'd say we probably got multiple watchers. Something like 2 sounds reasonable, maybe just 1, maybe even 3. That of course depends on the the other blue roles out there but normal DT's are not in the set-up, watcher and trackers are weaker than DT or at least harder to play and there's got to be some information roles in the game.
Of course it could be that we've got like 6 trackers and not a single watcher but that'd be out of the ordinary.
So sadly not much we can get from that point of view imo.
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On September 09 2012 02:14 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:12 Toadesstern wrote:
I actually don't believe z-boson read the game I was talking about (LI). That shit of a game had about 130 pages of bullshit by the end of d2 if I remember correctly :p
No way someone would force himself into reading THAT. How does this make you feel about Z-boson? Insert you really think someone would do that meme.
not sure. I lie as town all the time about stuff like that because I feel like I should read something when someone gives me a link to an old game or mentions it, so I say I'll read it, hoping that I'll do it but in the end will never end up doing it because I'm way too lazy. Not to mention that if I'd do that with everyone (reading old stuff) in the game I'd be doing nothing but reading old games.
So I usually end up lying about stuff like that because I feel like I should do it although I know it's bad to lie like that.
Haven't played with him so no idea if he does that as well but I don't really take it as mafiatreat. Maybe he just overlooked the game really, really fast without actually reading into detail in which case I could see him saying what he said.
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On September 09 2012 02:37 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:35 DarthPunk wrote:On September 09 2012 02:27 Hapahauli wrote:
Thankfully things are getting active in here again, but I wanted to discuss the BKE fake-claim a bit.
I think all of us agree that the likely order of events last night consisted of double-stacking one person, while suicide bombing the other (between BC and DrH). BKE's watcher claim suggests that it was BC who got double-stacked and BM24 who got suicide-bombed.
Now unless something about the Day2 post suggests otherwise, this seems highly unlikely. BC was much more of a confirmed town (after outing Mattchew) than DrH was. To the average reader here, BC would seem like much more of a target for blue actions (watcher, medic, etc.) during the night. Isn't it much more likely for mafia to have suicide-bombed BC? There would be a much higher chance of blue's visiting BC after he caught the first mafia. I find it so unlikely that DrH was suicide bombed (over BC), and this is why I'm doubting the BKE claim. This is irrelevant and not evidence. Regardless of your own opinion, mafia could have Bombed DrH and NK BC. It is possible. and thus BKE's claim is possible. Your preconceptions on what you would have done does not necessarily reflect what others did, and thus this in no way disproves BKE's claim. I'm not disproving anything - I'm saying it's highly unlikely given the dynamics of town Day 1. I'm talking about likelihood here. If you disagree with this, tell me why instead of spouting this "irrelevant" nonsense.
I thought the same thing but than again, what's the point of claiming he watched BM24?
If he's mafia he could as well just swapped it and made it the other way around. He could have easily said "sup dudes, watched BM24 yesterday and BC got suicide bombed" as frankly most people expected it that way.
What I'm taking from this is that he's telling the truth about who got suicide bombed either way.
If he's mafia he said that because he didn't even think about it the other way around and just claimed what really happened + a fake for himself. No need to lie about who got hit / suicide bombed. If anything that's just more chances to screw up somehow if someone tracked him or watched something else.
If he's town he said that because it really happened that way.
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On September 09 2012 02:44 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:37 Hapahauli wrote:On September 09 2012 02:35 DarthPunk wrote:On September 09 2012 02:27 Hapahauli wrote:
Thankfully things are getting active in here again, but I wanted to discuss the BKE fake-claim a bit.
I think all of us agree that the likely order of events last night consisted of double-stacking one person, while suicide bombing the other (between BC and DrH). BKE's watcher claim suggests that it was BC who got double-stacked and BM24 who got suicide-bombed.
Now unless something about the Day2 post suggests otherwise, this seems highly unlikely. BC was much more of a confirmed town (after outing Mattchew) than DrH was. To the average reader here, BC would seem like much more of a target for blue actions (watcher, medic, etc.) during the night. Isn't it much more likely for mafia to have suicide-bombed BC? There would be a much higher chance of blue's visiting BC after he caught the first mafia. I find it so unlikely that DrH was suicide bombed (over BC), and this is why I'm doubting the BKE claim. This is irrelevant and not evidence. Regardless of your own opinion, mafia could have Bombed DrH and NK BC. It is possible. and thus BKE's claim is possible. Your preconceptions on what you would have done does not necessarily reflect what others did, and thus this in no way disproves BKE's claim. I'm not disproving anything - I'm saying it's highly unlikely given the dynamics of town Day 1. I'm talking about likelihood here. If you disagree with this, tell me why instead of spouting this "irrelevant" nonsense. I thought the same thing but than again, what's the point of claiming he watched BM24? If he's mafia he could as well just swapped it and made it the other way around. He could have easily said "sup dudes, watched BM24 yesterday and BC got suicide bombed" as frankly most people expected it that way. What I'm taking from this is that he's telling the truth about who got suicide bombed either way.If he's mafia he said that because he didn't even think about it the other way around and just claimed what really happened + a fake for himself. No need to lie about who got hit / suicide bombed. If anything that's just more chances to screw up somehow if someone tracked him or watched something else. If he's town he said that because it really happened that way.
Oh it could also be that he's an assassin if there are some in the game but if that's the case we shouldn't lynch him and just outsource the problem. If he's an assassin just screw him and let the other Assassin deal with him. No need to waste a lynch on that.
I could actually see that happening seeing the weird nature of this claim but there's no point in talking about that because as mentioned, if that's the case he'll die himself just fine lol.
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Going back to BKE. As mentioned I've got to leave now and I might not be able to be back before the deadline and the Grush-lynch I'd prefere is not going to happen.
BKE is still a good lynch due to everything besides the claim, it's just that I'd say a grush lynch is better because he's equally scummy without the off-chance of hitting a blue, but a grush lynch is not not going to happen.
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EPT
