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So why are we just letting Erandorr fly here? Sorry, I still don't see it. I mean, to prove you're a doctor, do you say "Hey scum, try to NK X tonight so I can save them and prove I'm doctor"? Fuck no, that's idiotic.
That's exactly what Erandorr did with his mason on WBG, and I think it's scummy as shit.
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I really still think Erandorr is the best read.
He starts with this gem, voting on Bugs for no reason at all. Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm not a fan of votes for literally no reason, as they don't create functional discussion, and could cause trouble, or be used as cover later.
On August 03 2012 11:37 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 11:32 wherebugsgo wrote:
I'm town.
for that matter I'm Roger fucking Sterling, so suck my dick. lets start this game right ## VOTE: WBG
Most of page 2 of his filter is nonsensical babble or ad homs.
He masons onto WBG after WBG outs VE, as "proof" WBG is outing masons. Or maybe to get himself confirmed as a role in hopes he gets some BOTD.
He throws out personal attacks against anyone who disagrees with him repeatedly, an example:
On August 03 2012 23:58 Erandorr wrote:
Yo you guys. You actually don't use "reason" or "arguments" you just sit there and talk shit. If you disagree with me, point out mistakes you think I made instead of shitting out terrible posts
Epic defense against Hier.
On August 04 2012 08:23 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 08:16 Hier wrote:I am so impressed, Erandorr, you are so elaborate. Nobody even remotely suspects you of being mafia. You painted yourself to be a very big opponent of mason claims. + Show Spoiler [As seen here] +On August 03 2012 12:26 Erandorr wrote:YO talismania : wtf Show nested quote +Mason is kind of worthless for town and at face value is little different than a vanilla townie.
--A normal pair of masons have the benefit of knowing that one person is definitively town, and being able to claim that later. There is no such guarantee in this game. It's just like posting in the thread with someone except without anyone else seeing it, plus they're going to be extra suspicious of you. Of course you can glean a lot of information just by talking as well, which is a plus regardless. So lets see. Townie masons are kind of bad because all you can do is privatly talk to someone to get information and a feeling of not some random player, but someone you want to talk to more? Also explain the bolded part please. Why are you focused on how a town mason is looking trying to get information? Show nested quote +2) Mason is kind of a worthless role for scum.
--A scum mason is an annoying role to play. Do you pick townies, a scumbuddy, etc. What do you say to whom you buddy, each day? Seems fraught. Are you serious? Can you really think of no reason how a scum mason could be useful? Show nested quote +3) One interesting point is that if there is a town mason, there's likely a scum mason. Given the setup description, I find it hard to believe in fact that this would not be the case. This makes the role doubly poisonous/useless for scum. As it stands now, there are 5 scum and 19 townies (25%). If all the masons claim, and scum claims with them, I'm betting it's closer to 50/50 ratio. Maybe 2 town, 2 scum. That's shit for scum, so they won't want to claim. Except that they might think if they don't claim those that do are going to get too much town cred and yadda yadda.
Yeah those kind of speculations always work out and are totally valid and never before produced complete retard lynches! Show nested quote +4) So why not have them claim? Sounds fine to me but I don't think it's necessary either.
Okay. So would I be correct in saying that you think the mason role is so shitty that having it claimed wouldn't really help anyways, so why bother? If I misunderstood feel free to elaborate. Show nested quote +5) If you are masoned for the day - you MUST claim. There is no reason not to claim that. And save your logs and communications, because that shit needs to end up in the thread eventually.
Why? I can think of reasons not to claim that, actually. And just because you can do something doesn't really mean you should , right? But mafia either already knows who the masons are by receiving PMs, or sleep soundly at night knowing the masons are bickering among the townies in private, accusing each other of being scum behind each others' backs. Along comes WBG and gives away VE, to which you replied: On August 03 2012 20:54 Erandorr wrote:
any reason why you would out VE as mason this early? I mean thats kind of retarded. WBG confirms his stance on revealing masons, and has already done so in practice with an attitude that would assure anyone that he would easily do it again. + Show Spoiler [Here] +On August 03 2012 21:10 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 20:59 wherebugsgo wrote:
Pot calling the kettle black...
Let me break this down into simpler terms for you (and I thought that wasn't possible!)
1. Being a mason isn't alignment indicative (therefore outting a mason is rather worthless)
2. The playerbase of this game will not understand stuff unless it's obviously stated.
3. If we are both town then mafia will strongly consider shooting one of us. Which means that we will make good protects. Which means that it potentially forces mafia to shoot suboptimally. Sorry wbg, I am just too retarded to understand you. Within the same hour you mason WBG and get your role revealed. This warrants WBG's reveal of your role being anti-town; your role specifically, revealing VE was just "retarded", not necessarily anti-town. If you had filed your mason request before WBG revealed VE, he would have revealed both of you at the same time. BC was online at the time, as per his voting thread announcement, allowing for all of this to happen in rapid succession. You have abused WBG's rash decision making to your advantage, which I commend. + Show Spoiler [Time of BC's post] +On August 03 2012 21:20 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Please move all voting into the voting thread I just created Here
Thank you Erandorr's reasonings: + Show Spoiler [Here] +On August 03 2012 23:53 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 23:51 strongandbig wrote:On August 03 2012 21:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Erandorr just masoned me. Dunno if he's scum or just dumb though.
Also I didn't ask either of them before outting them. errandorr I was kind of hoping you would address this without being prompted but... I wanted to see if he did it again, considering I know my alignment. Its a completely anti town move . Give me one reason why not to hammer wbg right now please. On August 04 2012 01:37 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 01:31 talismania wrote:On August 04 2012 00:39 talismania wrote:On August 03 2012 23:53 Erandorr wrote:On August 03 2012 23:51 strongandbig wrote:On August 03 2012 21:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Erandorr just masoned me. Dunno if he's scum or just dumb though.
Also I didn't ask either of them before outting them. errandorr I was kind of hoping you would address this without being prompted but... I wanted to see if he did it again, considering I know my alignment. Its a completely anti town move . Give me one reason why not to hammer wbg right now please. can you walk me through your thought process a little more? It seemed like you were against masons being in public given your agreement with toad. So why did you risk outing yourself? Its a completely anti town move to out people like that without thoughts on alignment or actually any information. They may have been context with VE, but I thought of it as trading my role for confirming wbg as scum. it is that easy. On August 04 2012 01:40 Erandorr wrote:
EBWOP: at that point I wasnt actually certain that wbg was scum at all.
Something else I would like to point out that fucks over wbgs shitty logic even more, he pretended to give reasons on why he outed VE. Now what exactly were his reasons to out me , assuming he is town? He seems to think that I am town, so why do that to me?
Suddenly you become the victim of something you, apparently, could not forsee, making you look town. You try to convince people that WBG's move was anti-town, while the move against VE "may have been context", or was just "retarded", but not anti-town yet. It doesn't even matter whether WBG is town or mafia! He could be scum, and you may have asked him to rat you out without you even being a mason. I don't know. But you, Erandorr, I am very impressed with. That was clever. I will strive to be like you in the future. Dear god I hope you are trolling
Continues to press other people to jump on the WBG wagon.
On August 04 2012 22:56 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 22:52 Lazermonkey wrote:
Wbg: grush scum meta isn't to troll. His meta overall just doesn't make any sense. I played with him in Newbie XVI(where you actually coached me a bit so you maybe remember that as well). He made posts like this all the time and even claimed detective. Guess what? He was VT.
Lynching grush today is essentially a coinflip. I will not lynch into him today. So what exactly do you intend to do. Do you agree about WBG?
He posts this about WBG:
On August 05 2012 06:18 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 05:48 strongandbig wrote:On August 05 2012 05:38 slOosh wrote:On August 05 2012 05:36 strongandbig wrote:On August 05 2012 04:57 slOosh wrote:On August 05 2012 04:53 strongandbig wrote:On August 05 2012 04:33 wherebugsgo wrote:
Also the people who think I willingly brought attention to myself are funny. I didn't fully think of the repercussions when I outted the masons in terms of thread presence but I also didn't account for the fact that many people who have different opinions will consider opposing viewpoints as scummy (because they are incapable of understanding that different does not mean scum) if you're town then your play this game has been fucking terrible. i guess maybe you have irl shit but that's really the only explanation i could accept for why you've been playing the way you have instead of how you normally play. like, i usually have a lot of respect for how you play but if you're town this game you're being both stupid and an asshole, and i don't feel like sitting here and taking your shit. He got pissed off and it resulted in some unwanted behavior. Move on - do you have any objections to a talismania lynch? forgot to answer this. My objection to a talismania lynch is that it's not a wbg lynch. I don't understand why his recent behavior makes people think he's town. I don't see how it's alignment indicative. Read his PM log with Erandorr. Try to approach it from a "what is scum WBG trying to accomplish with his actions" rather than a "is WBG playing as well as what I envision a town WBG would play like". Just finished reading it. So you're thinking about this wrong. wbg's play isn't accomplishing objectives when he gets into this fight with errandor and starts raging everywhere. As I've said before, I think that scum wbg would be just as upset at the prospect of getting lynched for what he sees as shitty reasons as town wbg would. What I see in that pm log is just what wbg said it was - no serious attempt to persuade, except to persuade erandor that he's stupid. So no, I don't see that chat log as alignment indicative, I see it as "wbg being in a really bad mood for some out of game reason" indicative. Look at his play before the fight between him and erandorr, that's where we have things that are actually valid to analyze. Could you guys also please look at the "fight" where i try really hard to actually do stuff and he insults me about 100 times.
Which blithely ignores certain parts of the log, like
ME: its about you playing like complete dogshit
ME: you are playing like shit
ME: your logic is really bad
[04.08.12 13:03:32] ME: the one where you got killed
[04.08.12 13:03:42] ME: cause you fucked up as scum?
[04.08.12 13:03:57] ME: okay sry i just thought that was funny
Those are some brilliant examples of attempting productivity, and keeping it calm.
There's several people I have trouble seeing the town motive with, but Erandorr tops the chart for me.
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On August 05 2012 06:52 Toadesstern wrote:
Erandorr is not going to happen today. Not that I think it's going to happen tomorrow either but at least for today ignore him and try to pick someone who actually has a chance of being lynched.
Unless I misread the hell out of the OP, it's plurality, so keeping my vote on my biggest read shouldn't hurt the consensus.
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On August 05 2012 06:55 slOosh wrote:
JingleHell we are trying to consolidate votes right now and because the deadline isn't as friendly to our European neighbors the #1 priority for town is to get this lynch through. We aren't going to lynch Erandorr today. We discuss him more at night but right now our goal is to lynch scum, and that will best happen with prplhz. So please vote him unless you think he is town.
This is coming from you? The same person who said this...
On August 05 2012 03:37 slOosh wrote:
Hey Erandorr could be scum, but WBG's alignment isn't solely tied with Erandorr's alignment. We are not "letting him fly", we are discussing WBG, and he is the lynch candidate to consider. If you think he is town than discuss that.
...just minutes before you pull your vote OFF of WBG based on the chat logs, where WBG even said...
[04.08.12 13:29:52] WBG: I can't figure out a good scum in PMs, no one really can
Sorry, but I don't like having my vote bullied, and you sound a little funny too with your inconsistency.
I see Erandorr as scummier than WBG or prp, who seems to mostly be getting wagoned for semi-lurky behavior and a vote people don't like (issued the same way as Erandorr's vote I didn't like) when there are other people lurking harder.
Vote where you want, but don't tell me where to vote, it's not like I'm going to accidentally force a no-lynch here.
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On August 05 2012 07:12 slOosh wrote:
OK: Dear all the townies who think they are being cool with voting who they want:
This plays into mafia agenda. This game is plurality lynch. Our concern is never the no lynch. Our concern is not consolidating, allowing mafia votes to have more power (since are on the same page and can pool votes more effectively).
I'm not bullying you - I'm asking you to be realistic. Right now WBG is the frontrunner. He will get lynched unless people unvote him, or people vote someone else more than him. You have the power to do that latter. However, sticking your vote on someone who has no votes is essentially throwing away your vote. Unless you think WBG is scum and prplhz isn't there should be any reason not to vote prplhz. Please realize that independence weakens town's ability to lynch correctly.
I honestly don't see how you can make a case against prplhz for his vote on Glasse, without looking at Erandorr just as badly for WBG.
You can't make a case against prplhz for volume of posts, when we've got worse lurkers who are pretending to be active.
You can't make a case against prplhz for content of posts without at least considering content of people like Erandorr.
I can't get a good read on WBG either way, but neither of them seems like a better case than Erandorr.
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EBWOP: In other words, I can't say WBG or prplhz has done anything to convince me they're definitely townie, but Erandorr shows more scum motive than either.
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I already explained I don't think there's any good reason for a vote like that. I notice you ignore that part and just pass it off as a joke.
You say you know your alignment like that should be solid proof for anyone, and you were talking a LOT of shit in page 2 of your filter, not just that random quote. The majority of page 2, in fact, was shit talking or contentless fluff.
Hier's case may not be some perfect thing, but just calling it a troll when it was at least no worse than your case against WBG, which you seemed to expect to be taken seriously, yeah, I think that's off.
And you were talking huge shit right at the start of the log. Not just him. You were both at fault for the arguments, so trying to act like you were trying desperately to get along, and that meany poopoo head just kept calling you names and stealing your dolly... yeah, it won't fly with me.
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As for my thoughts on WBG, I've already given them. I don't understand his motivations, I don't understand his play, and I don't think he's as scummy as you, Erandorr.
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As for Erandorr masoning WBG after VE got outed? As scum or town, it wouldn't make much sense. However, having a "reason" to target WBG for outing him (which he should have expected) makes sense, with a hypothetical town WBG/scum Eran situation.
"Confirming" the outing of VE, on the other hand, has no benefit whatsoever for town, since if you're considering some strange scenario where WBG and VE fake that claim to try and get town credit, it wouldn't be hard to follow that up by telling the truth about getting masoned...
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On August 06 2012 01:20 Lazermonkey wrote:Lol, care to post something usefull?
And break his streak?
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On August 06 2012 05:12 Hier wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 05:07 strongandbig wrote:On August 06 2012 04:56 Hier wrote:Strongandbig:So since I tried to get votes off of prplhz, who turned out to be town, you suspect me of being mafia. I totally don’t see where you’re coming from. Sounds like you wanted to write something about me without exuding too much effort. Talismania:Honestly, I don’t know your alignment. But some interesting points that will have me pondering over are the following. 1) You ask two people, directly, what their opinions are of various players (including each other!) 2 hours after the game starts and before you even offer any reads yourself. + Show Spoiler [Erandorr] +On August 04 2012 00:06 talismania wrote:
Erandorr what do you think of Glasse?
(again)
also, what do you think of toad and VE? On August 04 2012 00:08 talismania wrote:
yo toad what you make of erandorr, glasse, VE, wbg? 2) Then you dump this on us: On August 04 2012 04:37 talismania wrote:
yep zeph is scummy for exactly why sloosh says. erandorr I thought was for a bit but I don't understand masoning wbg from a scum pov. jinglehell is town, lazer is town, strongandbig is town. toad I thought was scum at first because of the timing of his patented color text post but he's just been being generally rather toady, which is to say he makes really strange (from my perspective) conclusions about what's good in the setup and what's not with strange (again from my perspective) reasoning behind it. Glasse I thought was hilariously obviously scummy. Like so blatant I honestly don't know what to think. Guess I should go dig up another game of his. So you blindly agree with Sloosh without any afterword, and you label Jinglebell, Lazer, and SnB town aligned without any explanation whatsoever. Looks more like filler. 3) You go fishing for roles and alignments. On August 04 2012 05:13 talismania wrote:
ps can people post their character names? I just want to satisfy my curiosity to find out who is in the game - I know that they don't mean anything since I'm VT with Henry Francis. Although I will LOL if scum has Ted Chaugh and Putnam, Powell, Lowe etc. And if WBG is veteran since Roger comes back from a heart attack in the first season. 4) Keep tunnelling. + Show Spoiler [Constant questions without much else] +On August 04 2012 07:13 talismania wrote:
zeph and toad, thoughts on the other? On August 05 2012 04:46 talismania wrote:
Toad what do you think about glasse's and dropula's votes?
Completely cool with you? On August 06 2012 04:11 talismania wrote:
strongandbig and VE what do you think of the other? On August 06 2012 04:20 talismania wrote:
uh the only other read I see in your filter is about grush. Do you still think he is scum? Do you think anyone else is scum? How do you respond to what strongandbig said? 5) Finally you are just assuming Sloosh is town and order medics to protect him. On August 05 2012 10:27 talismania wrote:
Ok so
1) Medics protect sloosh tonight. If I were mafia I would kill him. He's always Captain America with the town, gathering votes together, keeping things on track. He's active and has generally solid analysis. Plus he's on me, so him dying makes it easy to push my lynch, and then boom two active townies are down the drain. So protect him.
I’m not completely confident on your alignment, none of this is conclusive for me, but come on; you need to sell your town play better. Mounting flimsy defenses of townie lynch targets for terrible reasons is something scum does a lot, they can point towards it later and be like "see I was on the right side of that". It's not just that you tried to defend him, it's that your reasons for doing so were terrible. My reason for not voting for prplhz was that there was little to no case against him. Far from terrible.
But hey, somehow it turns into a scumread on anyone who was on Erandorr. Even me, when I was interested in him at the beginning of D1. I guess I've got an awesome crystal ball, right?
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I love how the people who railroaded votes onto prphlz are out for blood from anyone who thought Erandorr was a better read.
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Don't forget that Talis has also been attacking anyone who goes after Erandorr, who somehow got away with mostly dismissing the cases that were made against him while he was helping lead a mislynch.
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On August 07 2012 02:38 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 01:12 JingleHell wrote:
Don't forget that Talis has also been attacking anyone who goes after Erandorr, who somehow got away with mostly dismissing the cases that were made against him while he was helping lead a mislynch. Pretty please can you get out of the erandorr tunnel for just a little bit! You talk about no one else and it's starting to concern me. It sounds here like you're setting yourself up for a vote on me later... so what's your take on me? What about toad, who also thinks erandorr is town and actually led the mislynch? Why aren't you mentioning him?
You were the one under discussion at the time.
Frankly, this is starting to need some tinfoil headgear, what you're suggesting. Bear in mind, I've been interested in Erandorr since the beginning. I've said my fill about the people who were trying to bully me into voting for someone lower on my scumread totem pole, I just added that so it didn't get forgotten when it was brought up.
But right now, you're turning anyone who thinks you're suspicious into some giant grand conspiracy of scum, out to get you personally, come hell or high water. If we were scum, putting all our eggs in one basket that way this early would be about as stupid as it gets.
Anyways, you're the one who's wanted me to drop Erandorr so many times. So what, exactly, is wrong with mentioning something to do with you?
Also, I'm still not convinced Eran isn't scum, seeing as the primary defense anyone offered was "Vote for someone you think is less scummy", and that guy turned out to be town. That being the case, the only way I'd be setting you up for a vote later (assuming I got my way) would be if Erandorr flipped red. Otherwise, that potential association would go away.
And, again, people flipped apeshit any time I tried to say anything about the mighty leaders of the prp lynch, so if I bring them all up at once, I'm just going to sound like you, with some inane conspiracy theory.
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Well, I don't know how many total masons there are, but we may well have some in reserve, and trying to WIFOM the host seems silly anyways. That said, at least part of the case against VE seems to rely on meta, which is mostly vague references.
I've seen a few things that make me question his motive for individual statements (don't remember off the top of my head) but overall his play has seemed consistent without being calculated. A lot of it seems to be semantics rather than motivation, and (given some mistakes I've made reading people that way before) I'd prefer to avoid making it all about that.
Overall, I really prefer the stuff that started crawling around under the rock I already looked under. Since we don't have any living confirmed townies, I'd prefer to avoid trying to prove innocence, and instead try to prove guilt. Establishing innocence is difficult at best, and an easy way to distract the town, so I'd rather keep an eye out for people making statements that require foreknowledge or have no town motive.
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Frankly, if I was going to call alignment based purely off of the case/countercase etc between you and VE, it would look like two townies beating each other to death with WIFOM.
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Eran, why do you make a ton of points about VE, then vote WBG, and accuse me of being scum for... some reason? Possibly for not jumping on the prp wagon when ordered?
It doesn't compute. Going back through context, I was planning to try and give you some BOTD, but this kind of bears some explanation.
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Going after Hassy at this point almost feels like it would be lynching for information. I can't understand the motivation of his play from any perspective, with his utterly nonexistent posting.
Right now, I'd probably be willing to get behind lynches on either VE, Dropula, or (if he doesn't explain his somewhat insane last post in the thread) Eran.
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That being said, we really need to get some activity out of some of the players. Activity is absolutely terrible, we're practically trying to scumhunt from 60% of the players.
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I've got to say, right now VE is pretty much the number one scumread.
Most damning of all, the whole rolefishing thing on Talis. It was really bizarre timing to ask, but if the host actually made roles and names line up (which doesn't seem to be the case), that would just be kind of dumb, making it the core of a case doesn't fly.
And then certain things don't line up.
On August 06 2012 03:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
No, my reasoning was to establish my innocence with Bugs FIRST, before anyone else. Not so he could defend me, but so he wouldn't suspect me.
Townies don't need to "establish" their innocence, that just happens through proper behavior.
Along with everything else, you've pretty much topped my reads for the day.
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EPT
