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/in
I will not be replaced.
It would be awesome if I was SK this time around Although I still need a lot of work to my town play so more games where I can improve it are better. I guess being scum is not that bad, it's just a little bit more stressful but you waste less time (than if you were town), so it wouldn't bother me (I don't really need to improve my scum play that much though....although it's been some games since I was scum so I don't have to lose practice >_> )
Well, let's see, whatever I get it will be awesome anyways (since it's a mini and mini's are awesome)
If I'm town I better have a blue role though > : ( (I'm never blue when town....and when I am the VT roles are better )
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On July 09 2012 08:00 marvellosity wrote: /in
gonzaw, even not in-game you talk a lot <3
I wonder what would happen if I just go all "lurking" all of a sudden in one of these games >_> <_<
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On July 09 2012 08:08 marvellosity wrote: gonzaw, then I lynch you immediately! ^_^
But let's not be silly, it's never going to happen :D
lol .... we shall see >_>
(also if I every "lurk" this game I'll point out to this post and say that I'd do it regardless of alignment just to piss marv off, so don't call me scum or anything <_< )
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Yo whats up dudes. I forgot how many scum there were, where they 4?
Anyways, first things first:
Millers Claim!
Masons Claim!
Nobody discuss this, nobody argue this, nobody contradict this. It's been discussed to death in every single game before this one so if you want to see reasons why those 2 should happen reread those games/guides/post-game analysis, don't clutter this thread up saying "oh no Millers shouldn't claim because the cop will get a red check!" or some bullshit.
Was that clear?
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On July 12 2012 07:36 Vivax wrote: I like gonzaws idea for the miller, but not for the masons. The masons should stay secret to pull off team stunts.
On July 12 2012 07:32 gonzaw wrote: Yo whats up dudes. I forgot how many scum there were, where they 4?
Anyways, first things first:
Millers Claim!
Masons Claim!
Nobody discuss this, nobody argue this, nobody contradict this. It's been discussed to death in every single game before this one so if you want to see reasons why those 2 should happen reread those games/guides/post-game analysis, don't clutter this thread up saying "oh no Millers shouldn't claim because the cop will get a red check!" or some bullshit.
Was that clear?
For instance here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321159¤tpage=55#1100 And all the discussion from before in that thread and shit (couldn't find another game where the whole "masons claim on D1" thing was explained thoroughly though ).
lol how did you do that? (off-topic)
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On July 12 2012 07:40 talismania wrote: I kinda think a roleblocker should come out too, with the idea being that a jailkeeper protects him (and scum don't know if there is or isn't a jailkeeper and doesn't know to risk a hit or not) and simultaneously removes the roleblock annoyance from the equation + makes it so if someone does get roleblocked we know scum has a roleblocker too. And I think that's important setup info since if this c9++ thing is to be believed then a scum roleblocker means there's at least 3 scum (unless wbg has strayed a long way away from that wiki). If roleblocker does exist but doesn't want to come out then I kindly request he not use his power at all until it makes sense.
This thing I'm not to sure about.
One person on the mafia team may carry out the kill each night. The mafia can choose not to kill. The mafia can kill each other. If the mafia member chosen to kill on a particular night is roleblocked, no kill will occur.
This means that the Town RBer is only helpful when he RBes the scum player that sends the hit, or he RBs the SK (if there is one). RBing a Mafia Roleblocker may seem cool, but it's not that big of a deal. Because: 1)The Town RBer has to guess correctly who's the scum RBer 2)The scum RBer RBed a Power Role and not a VT/SK.
For those 2 to happen he has to be VERY lucky. Most likely he won't target the RBer, and even if he does the RBer may RB a VT/SK (or scum may not even RB at all to induce WIFOM). In this case there is a great chance the Town RBer RBing a Mafia RBer (lol, RB) would be a waste.
RBing a Mafia Godfather only works when: 1)The Town RBer guesses correctly and targets the Godfather 2)A Cop checks the Godfather that night, and somehow is sure his target wasn't Framed
Basically the same as the Mafia RBer one, the chances of both happening are very little.
RBing a Mafia Framer works exactly the same (his RB works only if the Framer framed someone the cop actually checked).
That basically means he's only helpful when he targets 1-2 guys out of 12, and like 7-8 other guys he targets could be harmful to town (if those townies are blue).
So perhaps the RBer claiming would be the best, and have him not RB at all.
This means that:
- He won't miss and RB Town Power Roles
- We won't have to WIFOM about him being Mafia RBer and RBing townies on purpose
- If he did choose to RB, because of the reasons above he would most likely fail
So I think the Town RBer should claim and not RB at all.
I don't know about the Jailkeeper protecting him, since there can be more important people to protect. Also, if we tell the Jailkeeper "Do what you want, if you want to protect the claimed RBer then do so" scum won't know if the Town RBer will be protected whether there is a JK or not (also they won't know if there isn't a town JK if they successfully kill the Town RB at night).
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On July 12 2012 08:05 talismania wrote: @gonzaw on the RB: yeah for sure I don't think there's any point to a RB using their power. Jailkeeper can do as they please as long as the threat is out there it's fine. There's only one case I can think of off the top of my head where it's good for jailkeeper to protect (scum RB fake claims town RB, jailkeeper doesn't protect him, someone else claims RB'd, the scum RB claims he withheld his power, WIFOM) but that seems rather unlikely to occur.
If we try to create scenarios WIFOM-proof we'll waste lots of resources and time, and most of the time it's not even that useful (protecting a claimed Town RBer isn't a "game-breaking plan for town to win", yet it takes away the JK's ability to save someone at night). So yeah let's keep it simple....at least until we find a better plan
Also, cool this game has PMs/Chat/stuff.
If someone has Skype contact me, I'm gonzaw308 Or use the mafia chat thingy
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On July 12 2012 08:10 s0Lstice wrote: PMs PMs are not allowed in this game.
from the OP..
Out of thread communication: It is common for mafia (and town circles if PMs are allowed) to use a medium outside of TL such as QuickTopics or IRC to communicate during the game. Please be mindful that other players may be more tech savvy than you and they may attempt impersonate members of your team or attempt to infiltrate your chat. You use these media at your own risk.
?? Did I miss something?
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On July 12 2012 08:14 NoSmurfHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:08 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 08:05 talismania wrote: @gonzaw on the RB: yeah for sure I don't think there's any point to a RB using their power. Jailkeeper can do as they please as long as the threat is out there it's fine. There's only one case I can think of off the top of my head where it's good for jailkeeper to protect (scum RB fake claims town RB, jailkeeper doesn't protect him, someone else claims RB'd, the scum RB claims he withheld his power, WIFOM) but that seems rather unlikely to occur. If we try to create scenarios WIFOM-proof we'll waste lots of resources and time, and most of the time it's not even that useful (protecting a claimed Town RBer isn't a "game-breaking plan for town to win", yet it takes away the JK's ability to save someone at night). So yeah let's keep it simple....at least until we find a better plan
Also, cool this game has PMs/Chat/stuff. If someone has Skype contact me, I'm gonzaw308Or use the mafia chat thingy PMs are NOT allowed.
I repeat, NOT ALLOWED.
Are IRC, Chats and stuff allowed instead?
lol that OP is pretty confusing
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On July 12 2012 08:17 NoSmurfHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:15 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 08:14 NoSmurfHere wrote:On July 12 2012 08:08 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 08:05 talismania wrote: @gonzaw on the RB: yeah for sure I don't think there's any point to a RB using their power. Jailkeeper can do as they please as long as the threat is out there it's fine. There's only one case I can think of off the top of my head where it's good for jailkeeper to protect (scum RB fake claims town RB, jailkeeper doesn't protect him, someone else claims RB'd, the scum RB claims he withheld his power, WIFOM) but that seems rather unlikely to occur. If we try to create scenarios WIFOM-proof we'll waste lots of resources and time, and most of the time it's not even that useful (protecting a claimed Town RBer isn't a "game-breaking plan for town to win", yet it takes away the JK's ability to save someone at night). So yeah let's keep it simple....at least until we find a better plan
Also, cool this game has PMs/Chat/stuff. If someone has Skype contact me, I'm gonzaw308Or use the mafia chat thingy PMs are NOT allowed.
I repeat, NOT ALLOWED. Are IRC, Chats and stuff allowed instead?lol that OP is pretty confusing Only if I have given you a QT link.
The OP is not confusing, it's the same clause from every OP as every game since PYP:I from October.
Check the model OP thread if you don't believe me.
I swear to God that I've seen some games that put "Out of thread communication is not allowed" in that part of the OP, and the ones that did put that "Use these media at your own risk" part where the ones that allowed out of thread communication.
...although now that I read the past few games I see they are all the same...huh, I guess I never noticed it and assumed it was the former
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So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys:
On July 12 2012 07:56 Risen wrote: Welcome to ICBINTMM in which Risen does not post in caps or call anyone an idiot THE ENTIRE GAME. Stay tuned to see if this actually happens......
On July 12 2012 07:33 strongandbig wrote: sup bros i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room. Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated
On July 12 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote: alight lets do this.
no zentor means no policy lynch based on names for me.
You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later).
marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so).
Also this guy could die too:
On July 12 2012 08:05 austinmcc wrote: Screw the number and size of posts. I'm not a scientist, but it looks like talismania's been town --> scum --> town --> scum --> town. Therefore, he's scum this game.
I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls.
But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling)
Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it.
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On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote:So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: On July 12 2012 07:56 Risen wrote: Welcome to ICBINTMM in which Risen does not post in caps or call anyone an idiot THE ENTIRE GAME. Stay tuned to see if this actually happens...... On July 12 2012 07:33 strongandbig wrote: sup bros i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room. Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated On July 12 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote: alight lets do this.
no zentor means no policy lynch based on names for me. You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: On July 12 2012 08:05 austinmcc wrote: Screw the number and size of posts. I'm not a scientist, but it looks like talismania's been town --> scum --> town --> scum --> town. Therefore, he's scum this game.
I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls. But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early.
Thank you captain obvious. Instead of posting tautologies, do you have an opinion on said subject? (i.e do you think I'm extremely eager townie or do you think I'm scum looking for easy targets to push?)
Any particular reason you just instantly come out out of nowhere once your name was called out? (did you just admit you were lurking?)
But yeah, I saw the thread was pretty slow and wanted to spice things up, and I think you 3 guys are the most likely to be scum at the moment (I find solstice+sciberbia+Vivax+talis+keirathi pretty town at the moment, leaving you guys+the inactives)
On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
That plan of his is similar to his "utter stupid" plan he made as scum (the one where he wanted to force everybody to make a case and shit), but not that much to be honest.
But I don't see him as scummy at the moment, he seemed pretty interested in the discussion and made sense with his posts (also it makes me think he wouldn't go through the trouble of making that giant spreadsheet with the post of his past games if he was scum)
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Why the aggressiveness? I'm trying to provide some discussion. Why is it nonsense to.....you know...try to find scum?
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
Or we can wait for nothing at all to happen, which is basically what happens every single game I'm in where I stop posting and "wait for people to post on their own" (yeah it happens every single time, at least when I'm town).
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people.
Posting single thoughts on those 3 guys isn't making an effort I think, nor is saying "Yeah I'd kill them" or "No I wouldn't kill them" (specially considering they only have 1 post).
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On July 12 2012 10:00 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote: Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early. Thank you captain obvious. Instead of posting tautologies, do you have an opinion on said subject? (i.e do you think I'm extremely eager townie or do you think I'm scum looking for easy targets to push?)
In hindsight this came out more aggressive than I meant it :/
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On July 12 2012 10:15 s0Lstice wrote: maybe I misread, but I'm pretty sure Marv was addressing Talis with those lines you quoted, gonzaw.
As far as the names you listed, I wouldn't want to kill any of them right now. Austin has easy town meta, I feel confident I can recognize it. Mattchew, Risen, and s&b are just blank pages. I am nervous however of Risen making a conscious effort to change his play-style. I read him right in SSB64 but just barely.
Really? I thought he was talking about me (since I did post 3 people and wanted people to post some reasoning on them)
On July 12 2012 10:44 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote:On July 12 2012 10:34 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 10:00 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote: Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early. Thank you captain obvious. Instead of posting tautologies, do you have an opinion on said subject? (i.e do you think I'm extremely eager townie or do you think I'm scum looking for easy targets to push?) In hindsight this came out more aggressive than I meant it :/ It's cool. It's nothing compared to what I handled from igrok my last game. Anywho, I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. He wasn't pushing lurkers he was pushing people that posted that sounded excited to participate and post and then didn't.
Exactly...
....ehmm...you were one of those guys >_>
Well....okay I don't know what else to say? I found you guys suspicious because of that, so unless someone thinks Vivax+solstice+sciberbia+talis+keirtaht could be scum one of you HAS to be scum basically (even based on numbers alone)
Does anybody think one of those guys above I mentioned could be scum? (I'd post why I think they are town but only if there are suspicions on them). Well...maybe I'm going too fast though :/
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Getting killed on N1 every game does that to you. I just want to find the whole scumteam on D1 and lynch them all >_>
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On July 12 2012 15:38 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:14 DropBear wrote:On July 12 2012 15:06 Keirathi wrote: I don't think anyone is saying roleblocker should never, under any circumstances, use their power.
But it needs to be used with extreme caution because you probably have a higher chance (or at the very least, equal) of blocking a town blue than blocking a KP if you just pick randomly.
There are certainly situations where it can be a useful power, of course, but its much safer just to not use it until you have good, solid reads. People have in fact said that it shouldn't be used period. Gonzawtalismania Then I completely disagree with them. I'm still not positive they mean that there is a never a situation where RB can be useful, but if they think that then I encourage them to think harder.
Obviously there are exceptions. If there are 2 "very obvious scum" or something (and only 2 scum remain) then he can try to RB those.
But him trying to RB at random on N1 or even on N2 seems too risky to me, specially if that guys doesn't have very good reads (and isn't lucky).
@Dropbear: I don't like your attitude.
You just busted into the thread, basically discredited everything everybody said, and discredited every accusation anybody else has done, and that's it. All the while acting like you own the place or something (without actually taking charge). However you are not progressing at all, you are just complaining.
Actually lets get the ball rolling (this thread is VERY silent so far, hopefully this changes that):
##Vote: Dropbear
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On July 12 2012 22:52 Mattchew wrote: lets just call him confirmed town over and over again and maybe scum will do our read for us.. and if not we lynch him day 3
oh shit they can read this too cant they I like this idea :3
talismania: Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. ...wait... ..I wasn't following your plan >_>
I didn't know you wanted people to post 3 reads and shit later, I thought it was your usual "Post a case by the 24 hour mark" plan so I ignored it
On July 12 2012 23:35 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak.
Sorry bro, but that's kind of the nature of the game I guess - any post could be made either by scum or by town? Do you have any suggestions as to how to be more townie? Meanwhile, I feel like there's something to be read in Gonzaw's post about Derpbear - I'm just not sure what. Dropbera accuses Gonzaw of tryharding overmuch, when he's just Gonzawing - then Gonzaw attacks him in a way that I'm pretty sure either exaggerates or straight up mischaracterizes dropper's tiny filter. hmmmmmmmmmmm...... I'll think some more about this later tonight. Gonzaw, have you and DropBurp ever played together before?
The thing is his behaviour struck me as odd, and I wanted to "get the ball rolling" to see what happened.. Apparently nobody even commented on it, which was what I was expecting to.
I was not confident in Dropbear being scum, but I got a feeling he could. Him later just discrediting my FoS, and general aggressiveness doesn't make me very comfortable FoSing him, since it's always more likely townies that do such thing; although I'm still wary of him buddying up to marv there and jumping on the Vivax bandwagon. *sigh* However that's not decisive evidence, yet he's still one of my candidates for scum. I'll reread some stuff and respond to other stuff later (just want to have the unvote right now so I don't have a vote and another one later, and so this post isn't huge)
##Unvote: DropBear
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About Vivax: (Fuck I need to use these tags again >_>)
Marv, I don't agree with your read on Vivax either
On July 12 2012 07:07 Vivax wrote: We should lynch Mattchew cause his avatar is a zerg.
Keirathi is the serial killer.I know it.
On July 12 2012 07:21 Vivax wrote: We don't have much movement yet, so I have used my psychic powers to determine the first scum player:
sciberbia
Let's hear his defense.
I don't see a "relatively noob" scum posting like this as soon as the game starts. He "jokingly" accused 3 people by that point, and seemed cheerful about it. That's not how noob scum play (why would they try to "joke" accuse people if it puts them more in the spotlight as SOON as the game starts?), hell they even rarely post at the very beginning of the game at all, and they never appear cheerful or anything. Why? Because they are scum that's why, they have to check their scum QT, check their buddies, talk to them, think how they are going to proceed, etc. Someone more experienced could pull this off, but I even doubt that. That's what made me think Radfield wasn't scum on iGrok's game and I was right, basically no scum jumps right into the action at the very start of the game and start joking around and posting without hesitating at all.
On July 12 2012 17:21 Vivax wrote: ##unvote strongandbig ##Vote Miltonkram
Well you said you were watching something on tv yesterday and would start calling out scum soon, so I thought you were monitoring the game.
Anyway, that was a pretty informative post about marv, you have my seal of approval for unlurking. Now I wanna see something from Milton :p.
I also don't see him posting like this as scum. His vote+unvote on S&B wouldn't make much sense to do it as scum. Why would he do that as scum? Why would he vote someone when almost nobody else had voted at all, and then unvote him immediately after when that guy posts and never speak of him again? It doesn't seem to cause any confusion or push any scum agenda, since if he wanted to cast doubt on S&B he could have continued to do so after his post.
That's not entirely definitive to think he's town, but for me it's VERY definitive for not lynching him on D1.
About marv:
At first I found your behaviour odd as well. Because you seemed very aggressive, and very eager to stir shit, like this:
On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people.
On July 12 2012 19:22 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote:Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET.
Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] +The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that.
NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you.+ Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. ##Vote: strongandbigDamn this game is easy. First section is fluff. Second section is a completely insidious attempt to create additional suspicion on to me under the guise of "balance". He spends time saying people should scrutinise me especially for mythical 'balance' reasons... that for some reason are working exactly like he says and no other way. As to "I should know this" about talismania. I didn't really obs SSB so much (I think there is even a comment in the post-game where someone said Risen had no credibility but i did not know because I hadn't followed that closely). But in bang bang talis was SCUM and proposed similar. And I still find the plan scummy whether he proposes it as town or scum. One last point on his shitty balance bullshit - " Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that." I have rolled scum TWICE. I have said in at least one other thread recently (maybe MTG?), directly in response to him I think, that I have only rolled scum TWICE. This is not half the time. This whole post is the worst thing I've ever seen. ##Vote: strongandbigI'm doing it twice because I feel so strongly about it.
You were just accusing people as soon as possible, and it seemed to me you were just trying to create chaos and having people fling shit towards you.
That kind of behaviour is not really what I remember when you play town (at least in these past few games I've Obs'ed), were you are more calm and composed.
..hmm, however your later unvote of S&B, and your later seemingly genuine interaction with people and lack of fear in your posts made me change my mind. I like you being more active in discussion later, and I don't think I'd see you do that as scum
However you are all over the place man, like with these posts:
On July 13 2012 00:57 marvellosity wrote: Having a quick flick through a few filters, Keirathi comes across as sounding incredibly neutral.
I agree with this....but it just seems like you post whatever you want and then ignore it. Keep it cool man, don't do weird shit like that because it scares me
About Matt:
No Vivax, I don't agree with your FoS either. Matt seems very apparent town to me right now.
On July 12 2012 10:44 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote:On July 12 2012 10:34 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 10:00 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote: Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early. Thank you captain obvious. Instead of posting tautologies, do you have an opinion on said subject? (i.e do you think I'm extremely eager townie or do you think I'm scum looking for easy targets to push?) In hindsight this came out more aggressive than I meant it :/ It's cool. It's nothing compared to what I handled from igrok my last game. Anywho, I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. He wasn't pushing lurkers he was pushing people that posted that sounded excited to participate and post and then didn't.
Here he acts very non-chalant to me calling him out, and he agrees with my criteria for accusing him. Yet he doesn't seem to care or be bothered by it. If he was scum I think he'd either: -ignore it -say that my accusations are shit -say that my accusations are right but trying to defend himself so I don't accuse him and accuse S&B+Risen instead
Him acting like this give me town vibes.
He also made very concise and helpful posts like these:
On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit
On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak.
On July 12 2012 22:43 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 22:41 marvellosity wrote: Matt, while you're here - what do you make of gonzaw? He seems to be making stuff out of nothing, but it could just be provoking conversation.
I guess normally at the start of day 1 he has setup shit to ramble on about, which he does not here. he is trying really really hard, and once again he is explaining his entire thought process. I dont think i have ever seen him as scum, but this is the exactly how he plays as town
And I agree with his approach to the Vivax wagon (check my Vivax read above). If he was scum I don't see why he wouldn't either: -Fuel the Vivax wagon -Ignore it ...hoping that its wagon increases to create a D1 misslynch
All his actions make me think he's town, and so do his style of posting (absolutely NOTHING AT ALL like either MTG or LIII).
So yeah, no Vivax or Mattchew misslynch today please
I'll get to my "scum" reads (or dudes I find suspicious) in the next post (most of them are based on process of elimination basically, but their posting and shit make me more comfortable as well)
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On July 13 2012 05:00 marvellosity wrote: hmmm. scib looks ok to me at the moment.
This.
I have 2 other walls of text coming, so prepare
(hmm, I don't know if that will be one of those "gonzaw walls of text that harm town more than they help him", so I don't know if posting all my thoughts about the "scummy" people would be good...but hey at least I'm not having 10 pages of filter by now)
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Disclamer: This is the "list" of scummy guys I'm not that comfortable lynching and I'd like people's opinions on them (I think it's likely there is at least 1 scum in here...hell maybe all are scum >_>)
About DropBear:
I already posted what I think of him:
+ Show Spoiler [Thoughts on DropBear] +On July 13 2012 04:27 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 23:35 strongandbig wrote:On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak.
Sorry bro, but that's kind of the nature of the game I guess - any post could be made either by scum or by town? Do you have any suggestions as to how to be more townie? Meanwhile, I feel like there's something to be read in Gonzaw's post about Derpbear - I'm just not sure what. Dropbera accuses Gonzaw of tryharding overmuch, when he's just Gonzawing - then Gonzaw attacks him in a way that I'm pretty sure either exaggerates or straight up mischaracterizes dropper's tiny filter. hmmmmmmmmmmm...... I'll think some more about this later tonight. Gonzaw, have you and DropBurp ever played together before? The thing is his behaviour struck me as odd, and I wanted to "get the ball rolling" to see what happened.. Apparently nobody even commented on it, which was what I was expecting to. I was not confident in Dropbear being scum, but I got a feeling he could. Him later just discrediting my FoS, and general aggressiveness doesn't make me very comfortable FoSing him, since it's always more likely townies that do such thing; although I'm still wary of him buddying up to marv there and jumping on the Vivax bandwagon. *sigh* However that's not decisive evidence, yet he's still one of my candidates for scum. I'll reread some stuff and respond to other stuff later (just want to have the unvote right now so I don't have a vote and another one later, and so this post isn't huge) ##Unvote: DropBear
About Risen:
On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote:So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: On July 12 2012 07:56 Risen wrote: Welcome to ICBINTMM in which Risen does not post in caps or call anyone an idiot THE ENTIRE GAME. Stay tuned to see if this actually happens...... On July 12 2012 07:33 strongandbig wrote: sup bros i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room. Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated On July 12 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote: alight lets do this.
no zentor means no policy lynch based on names for me. You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: On July 12 2012 08:05 austinmcc wrote: Screw the number and size of posts. I'm not a scientist, but it looks like talismania's been town --> scum --> town --> scum --> town. Therefore, he's scum this game.
I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls. But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early.
I already posted why this was weird. He came out of nowhere just to defend himself against me, but doesn't say anything at all about it, just posted a very apparent tautology without saying anything.
Another thing I found weird was:
On July 12 2012 16:38 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 16:29 Vivax wrote: There's no link to a voting thread in the OP methinks.Add pls?
##Vote active lurk strongandbig Yes, this is going places. I like your thinking. I just like your style, my dude. You have my vote! ##vote: Vivax
On July 13 2012 02:55 Risen wrote: I've had experience with Mattchew being scum, as we were both godfathers who flipped vigis in some other game I can't remember the name of. I think he's WAY, WAY, WAY more active and useful this game ALREADY than he was that game.
He voted Vivax (I assume) because he didn't state why he voted S&B all of a sudden. However, in that 2nd post of his, Vivax already had 2 votes (marv+Dropbear) and Vivax already explained why he voted/unvoted S&B.....yet he doesn't comment anything about it.
If he's town, he knows his vote is the most important thing he has (unless he's Awesome Vigilante with Homing Heat-seeking missiles that 100% target scum), so one would think he'd pay attention to things regarding the guy he's voting.
Him softly-accusing Dropbear without actually taking a stance in the subject here:
On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote:This is silly. On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). This isn't going to happen and would just waste time.
On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. And his seemingly apologetic post here (that again is just an excuse for him not to do anything)
On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:14 sciberbia wrote: @keirathi, @Dropbear, @Risen Do you guys have any suspicions yet? Maybe you could comment on my post about risen/marv or about gonzaw's accusations of risen/strongandbig/Mattchew? This thread is too quiet for my liking -- please share some of your thoughts. I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. Make me suspicious of him
However, his "kind" attitude and way he's posting make me wary. Like, the way he posts is very weird and would certainly call people's attention....but isn't it too obvious perhaps? Like, it seems he doesn't really care how people see him, which doesn't make me that confident in thinking he's scum. But meh, I'd appreciate people's thoughts on him
About Milkton:
On July 12 2012 17:39 Miltonkram wrote:Hey everybody I'm finally able to get in the thread. I'll make this my quick introductory post and then get to scumhunting. I find that policy talk naturally transitions into a scumhunt over the course of D1. I think we all know the major points of policy that get talked about, and I tend to take each policy on a case by case basis anyway, so I won't waste much time on policy talk other than to say that talismania's proposal is pretty obviously a bad idea. First things first, here is a list of games I've played in as well as links to my filters from those games. I think I'll be starting all my games with a list like this because it helps me improve. If I'm scum, I have to avoid playing closely to my scum meta. If I'm town, I put pressure on myself to make good reads. The list is spoilered so as not to take up too much space. + Show Spoiler +
This post seems fluffy as fuck, specially the 1st part. The "list of game I've played" is filler as well, it doesn't add anything else to the game Even after posting that he doesn't do anything later (is he still "busy" or something?)
However it's his first fucking post so it's not like we can get a meaningful read out of it
Well fuck, another wall of text
So....I'll try to keep things a little bit separate and post my actual "scum reads" in the next post (it's just S&B+austin+Keirathi anyways....yeah SPOILERS whatever).
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austinmcc: I'll ignore his 1st post since it has nothing worthwhile in it.
On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw?
Big fluffy post. Like talis said, he seems to "add" something to the "talis' plan is bad" discussion....but he doesn't add much at all. Saying it will clog up the thread is not news, and Mattchew and others said what was wrong with the plan before. The worst thing is he makes a great deal out of it by basing his whole post on that part. I say basing his "whole" post because his 2nd paragraph is like the biggest pile of fluff ever. Did you really need to post so much just to ask "What do you guys think of gonzaw's scum play?" or something? Like...your whole post could be reduced to "tali's plan is bad and I want to know how you guys catch gonzaw as scum", which means your post is SOLELY filler, and as you can see that statement alone doesn't contribute anything about the game either. Really...that post is pretty bad.
On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote:Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) marvellosityOn July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote:On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). nonext On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. austinmccOn July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning.Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Talis, underlined portions of Marv's posts are what I interpret as his reactions to your plan. Underlined portions of mine are my reaction that I wrote. Two things. One, Show nested quote +He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all.
this. If you think I'm just "expanding on" marv, that IS adding something. Otherwise Marv's initial "no" is it, and EVERYONE who disagreed is just "expanding on no." Two, here WAS new content, specific scenarios that I noted your plan could lead to, which I think are bad and weren't mentioned by others: - someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion
- we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning
The first scenario is bad because a really good plan is going to end up "follow this or get lynched." Look at the pick your power games, liar game, etc. With your plan, we'd have to derail the thread from scumhunting and have a policy discussion later in the game about whether someone who didn't follow "the plan," didn't post 3 suspicions, was scummy or just wasn't suspicious of 3 people. Not posting 3 cases wouldn't be alignment-indicative, so we couldn't just lynch them. There'd have to be discussion of that, which would gunk up the thread. That's the full thought process behind that point. As to the second point I made, having players*3 cases in the thread could lead us to a situation where we were lynching based on case quantity and not case quality. Oh, 70% of people are suspicious of X, so we lynch him. Even if he was most people's third choice, and we had a few folks highly suspicious of Y. Ta da. Overall, I think your plan is bad if you want us to follow, and still bad if you want to gauge reactions to it. You got responses from a little more than half the thread, which is alright, but you need a plan that SOME people want if you're going to actually generate "discussion." You got reactions, but not actual discussion. People weren't weighing the pros and cons of the plan, people were just saying no to it. That doesn't get you the sort of interactions that I want to draw conclusions from, because nobody gains town OR scum points for being the 5th or 6th person to pooh pooh a plan that nobody likes.
I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads? Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote: I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself. Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. When he speaks about DropBear later, we get: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote: I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this"
I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic. He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts.
Talking about bad posts.
That 1st part is absolutely unnecessary. He keeps talking about tali's plan and tali's accusation of him, but why? Talis said that austin was suspicious because he didn't add much about his criticism of his plan before.....so why did he feel the need to explain everything about how bad that plan is after being called out? Talis didn't tell him "you are suspicious because you can't find reasons why my plan is bad", so why did he spend like 4 paragraphs and a wall of text to explain so? Even more importantly....why does it matter? How could heavily debating why tali's plan was bad (even after 90% had already stated why) be any helpful at all? It just clutters things up and makes your post look big, and of course it just makes it so you appear active and contributing when you haven't done shit until then.
The 2nd part is equally bad:
I'm more interested in Risen though
He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said.
WTF!!??
So the player you find most interesting is one you think is town? Also I don't get it, he seems to accuse Risen of many things, but then says he thinks he's town, but then he keeps accusing Risen. That seems very inconsistent, what does he actually think of Risen? If he thought Risen was town...why waste his post on posting his thoughts on someone he thinks is town? Why not ignore it and post about someone he thinks is scum?
As you can see...later he never posts anything at all about who he thinks is scum, nothing. Just like S&B's accusation of austin, austin accuses Risen but never mentions him later (albeit he didn't have that many posts). That seems fishy as fuck.
Strong&Big
On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote:Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET.
Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] +The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that.
NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you.+ Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. I fully agree with Mattchew here:
On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak.
S&B gets very defensive at being called "active lurker", and says he wants to "establish his innocence" but he's not doing anything like that at all.
Check the next posts in his filter, it's just him bickering against marv about the "balance" issue (that has nothing to do with the game).
The next thing he does is make half-assed accusations he never seems to follow through:
On July 12 2012 23:35 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak.
Sorry bro, but that's kind of the nature of the game I guess - any post could be made either by scum or by town? Do you have any suggestions as to how to be more townie? Meanwhile, I feel like there's something to be read in Gonzaw's post about Derpbear - I'm just not sure what. Dropbera accuses Gonzaw of tryharding overmuch, when he's just Gonzawing - then Gonzaw attacks him in a way that I'm pretty sure either exaggerates or straight up mischaracterizes dropper's tiny filter. hmmmmmmmmmmm...... I'll think some more about this later tonight. Gonzaw, have you and DropBurp ever played together before?
On July 13 2012 01:54 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote:On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote:Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) marvellosityOn July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote:On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). nonext On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. austinmccOn July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning.Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Talis, underlined portions of Marv's posts are what I interpret as his reactions to your plan. Underlined portions of mine are my reaction that I wrote. Two things. One, He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all.
this. If you think I'm just "expanding on" marv, that IS adding something. Otherwise Marv's initial "no" is it, and EVERYONE who disagreed is just "expanding on no." Two, here WAS new content, specific scenarios that I noted your plan could lead to, which I think are bad and weren't mentioned by others: - someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion
- we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning
The first scenario is bad because a really good plan is going to end up "follow this or get lynched." Look at the pick your power games, liar game, etc. With your plan, we'd have to derail the thread from scumhunting and have a policy discussion later in the game about whether someone who didn't follow "the plan," didn't post 3 suspicions, was scummy or just wasn't suspicious of 3 people. Not posting 3 cases wouldn't be alignment-indicative, so we couldn't just lynch them. There'd have to be discussion of that, which would gunk up the thread. That's the full thought process behind that point. As to the second point I made, having players*3 cases in the thread could lead us to a situation where we were lynching based on case quantity and not case quality. Oh, 70% of people are suspicious of X, so we lynch him. Even if he was most people's third choice, and we had a few folks highly suspicious of Y. Ta da. Overall, I think your plan is bad if you want us to follow, and still bad if you want to gauge reactions to it. You got responses from a little more than half the thread, which is alright, but you need a plan that SOME people want if you're going to actually generate "discussion." You got reactions, but not actual discussion. People weren't weighing the pros and cons of the plan, people were just saying no to it. That doesn't get you the sort of interactions that I want to draw conclusions from, because nobody gains town OR scum points for being the 5th or 6th person to pooh pooh a plan that nobody likes.
I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads? On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote: I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself. Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this: On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. When he speaks about DropBear later, we get: On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote: I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this"
I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic. He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts. I'm getting some seriously bad vibes from the first half of this post - it seems like there's way too much detail responding to Talis's "you copied marv" thing, when one or two sentences would do. (and when I'm telling you you put too much detail into a post, you've got a problem.) Then you jump back into actually arguing about whether or not the plan is a good idea, which even tali has moved on from.
I don't see a vote, I don't see him trying to get other people's thoughts on them, and most importantly I don't really see him as actually interested in pressuring those people...he just seems to softly accuse them and nothing else. For instance take his austin "accusation".....does he think austin is scum or not? Like...what does he conclude? He just calls him out on something, but we don't know if he's accusing him or pressuring him or whatever, since he doesn't follow up on it later at all.
For claiming he's trying to "establishing his innocence" he's doing a very bad job, he makes a fluffy post about "balance" and about "keeping an eye on marv", then keeps cluttering up the thread with that "balance" issue, then makes half-assed accusations against me+austin.
Keirathi:
On July 12 2012 08:19 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +sciberbia wrote: I'm not a big fan of lynching lurkers. Obviously, lurking hurts town, but I don't think lurking is all that alignment-indicative. Seeing as our goal is to lynch scum, I will only give slight preference to lynching the lurker over the active player, everything else being even.
I'm not convinced that masons, millers, or roleblockers should claim, but I've never played in a setup quite like this before and I haven't thought much about it. I'll read up on the issue and see if I agree with you guys.
Well, ideally since this is not a newbie game, we shouldn't have townies lurking much. Its a bit different in newbie games because people don't really know how to play, and since everyone here should have a decent idea of how to play, then people lurking is strategy rather than ignorance. That's not to say that I think lynching lurkers is a particularly good idea, but looking into lurkers has more merit in this type of game than a newbie one. As far as claims, I myself haven't played in a game where masons/roleblockers claimed, so I'll have to look into it, but I agree with the points made about RB'ers so far, so that at least makes sense. An unclaimed miller causes more confusion than its worth though, and I can't really think of a situation in which a miller wouldn't want to claim.
This post seems a very "I'm trying to contribute here!" one. Spends WAY too much time talking about lurkers and policies, and doesn't even take any interesting stance in the mason/RBer issue (i.e if he had an interesting stance it would be actually a contribution). He just spouts some fluffy stuff about them that only serves to make his post bigger
solstice called him out as "verbose" (which was right):
On July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said.
Yet he keeps doing the same thing. He's still "verbose", and his post doesn't contribute shit at all. He says "I'm verbose because of something irrelevant" and "Rehash of what other people said". Not only that, he acknowledges himself that he's rehashing what other people said....yet that doesn't prevent him from posting it and doesn't prevent him from trying to find something else to contribute.
His other posts don't call too much attention, yet then he comes out of nowhere with this:
On July 13 2012 03:33 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing:+ Show Spoiler +since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). So I was going back through the thread looking for more information, when this leaped out at me. When I read it the first time through, I didn't think anything of it because I don't have previous experience with you, but if you propose the same plan in every game you play in, then how is it "half-assed musing" this time? It feels like you're pre-emptively making an excuse for a bad plan. And why, as a townie, are you half-assing things anyways? ...????
This is so out of place it's not funny. Like, Vivax had 2 votes on him and a case against him, some other FoSes were flowing around (marv on S&B at first, then Vivax on Mattchew, etc); yet when Kei posts he thinks it's more useful to discuss tali's plan again? Not only that, but discuss something so pointless and irrelevant like tali's "motive" for making the plan because it was "half-assed" or some shit?
Like....he completely ignored everything else in the thread, wtf?
Now here's my dilemma:
Who the fuck do I vote? I want all 3 dead Hmm, I think austin+Keirath are more likely scum than S&B, but I guess Keiarth could be just noob and plays like this because he's noob, so lets go with this.
##Vote: austinmcc
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EBWOP:
Well fuck, "Keirathi" is centered but the others 2 are not >_> Disregard that, I just forgot to center the 1st two, it's not that Keirath is more scum than those 2 or anything
Anyways I'm spent, you guys discuss all you want now. You can't say "things are going slow" now though
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On July 13 2012 05:52 marvellosity wrote: Still reading, but one thing on austin:
"He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said."
Here, as I read it, he was summarizing what Risen had said and pointing out how wishy washy it was. He was not giving his own view on Risen.
This makes a pretty big difference.
I don't remember Risen saying something like that (that Dropbear is likely town)
In fact if you look at this paragraph:
Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts. It seems more like him encouraging Risen to contribute more than actually (for instance the bolded bits). That makes me think he actually said he thought Risen was town.
Even if he didn't explicitly say it, that last paragraph and his whole "accusation" of Risen still is weird as hell. He accuses Risen of posting some "fluff" and "not trusting his reads", but then he gives him advice and posts some weird stuff like "dunno, being wrong as a townie is plenty forgivable". What the hell is that? And how does it help town hunt scum this game?
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On July 13 2012 06:07 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:46 gonzaw wrote:austinmcc:I'll ignore his 1st post since it has nothing worthwhile in it. On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Big fluffy post. Like talis said, he seems to "add" something to the "talis' plan is bad" discussion....but he doesn't add much at all. Saying it will clog up the thread is not news, and Mattchew and others said what was wrong with the plan before. The worst thing is he makes a great deal out of it by basing his whole post on that part. I say basing his "whole" post because his 2nd paragraph is like the biggest pile of fluff ever. Did you really need to post so much just to ask "What do you guys think of gonzaw's scum play?" or something? Like...your whole post could be reduced to "tali's plan is bad and I want to know how you guys catch gonzaw as scum", which means your post is SOLELY filler, and as you can see that statement alone doesn't contribute anything about the game either. Really...that post is pretty bad. On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote:On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote:Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) marvellosityOn July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote:On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). nonext On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. austinmccOn July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning.Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Talis, underlined portions of Marv's posts are what I interpret as his reactions to your plan. Underlined portions of mine are my reaction that I wrote. Two things. One, He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all.
this. If you think I'm just "expanding on" marv, that IS adding something. Otherwise Marv's initial "no" is it, and EVERYONE who disagreed is just "expanding on no." Two, here WAS new content, specific scenarios that I noted your plan could lead to, which I think are bad and weren't mentioned by others: - someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion
- we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning
The first scenario is bad because a really good plan is going to end up "follow this or get lynched." Look at the pick your power games, liar game, etc. With your plan, we'd have to derail the thread from scumhunting and have a policy discussion later in the game about whether someone who didn't follow "the plan," didn't post 3 suspicions, was scummy or just wasn't suspicious of 3 people. Not posting 3 cases wouldn't be alignment-indicative, so we couldn't just lynch them. There'd have to be discussion of that, which would gunk up the thread. That's the full thought process behind that point. As to the second point I made, having players*3 cases in the thread could lead us to a situation where we were lynching based on case quantity and not case quality. Oh, 70% of people are suspicious of X, so we lynch him. Even if he was most people's third choice, and we had a few folks highly suspicious of Y. Ta da. Overall, I think your plan is bad if you want us to follow, and still bad if you want to gauge reactions to it. You got responses from a little more than half the thread, which is alright, but you need a plan that SOME people want if you're going to actually generate "discussion." You got reactions, but not actual discussion. People weren't weighing the pros and cons of the plan, people were just saying no to it. That doesn't get you the sort of interactions that I want to draw conclusions from, because nobody gains town OR scum points for being the 5th or 6th person to pooh pooh a plan that nobody likes.
I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads? On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote: I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself. Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this: On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. When he speaks about DropBear later, we get: On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote: I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this"
I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic. He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts. Talking about bad posts. That 1st part is absolutely unnecessary. He keeps talking about tali's plan and tali's accusation of him, but why? Talis said that austin was suspicious because he didn't add much about his criticism of his plan before.....so why did he feel the need to explain everything about how bad that plan is after being called out?Talis didn't tell him "you are suspicious because you can't find reasons why my plan is bad", so why did he spend like 4 paragraphs and a wall of text to explain so? Even more importantly....why does it matter? How could heavily debating why tali's plan was bad (even after 90% had already stated why) be any helpful at all? It just clutters things up and makes your post look big, and of course it just makes it so you appear active and contributing when you haven't done shit until then. The 2nd part is equally bad: I'm more interested in Risen though He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. WTF!!?? So the player you find most interesting is one you think is town? Also I don't get it, he seems to accuse Risen of many things, but then says he thinks he's town, but then he keeps accusing Risen. That seems very inconsistent, what does he actually think of Risen? If he thought Risen was town...why waste his post on posting his thoughts on someone he thinks is town? Why not ignore it and post about someone he thinks is scum? As you can see...later he never posts anything at all about who he thinks is scum, nothing. Just like S&B's accusation of austin, austin accuses Risen but never mentions him later (albeit he didn't have that many posts). That seems fishy as fuck. Strong&BigOn July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote:Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET.
Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] +The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that.
NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you.+ Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. I fully agree with Mattchew here: On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak. S&B gets very defensive at being called "active lurker", and says he wants to "establish his innocence" but he's not doing anything like that at all. Check the next posts in his filter, it's just him bickering against marv about the "balance" issue (that has nothing to do with the game). The next thing he does is make half-assed accusations he never seems to follow through: On July 12 2012 23:35 strongandbig wrote:On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak.
Sorry bro, but that's kind of the nature of the game I guess - any post could be made either by scum or by town? Do you have any suggestions as to how to be more townie? Meanwhile, I feel like there's something to be read in Gonzaw's post about Derpbear - I'm just not sure what. Dropbera accuses Gonzaw of tryharding overmuch, when he's just Gonzawing - then Gonzaw attacks him in a way that I'm pretty sure either exaggerates or straight up mischaracterizes dropper's tiny filter. hmmmmmmmmmmm...... I'll think some more about this later tonight. Gonzaw, have you and DropBurp ever played together before? On July 13 2012 01:54 strongandbig wrote:On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote:On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote:Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) marvellosityOn July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote:On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). nonext On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. austinmccOn July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning.Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Talis, underlined portions of Marv's posts are what I interpret as his reactions to your plan. Underlined portions of mine are my reaction that I wrote. Two things. One, He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all.
this. If you think I'm just "expanding on" marv, that IS adding something. Otherwise Marv's initial "no" is it, and EVERYONE who disagreed is just "expanding on no." Two, here WAS new content, specific scenarios that I noted your plan could lead to, which I think are bad and weren't mentioned by others: - someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion
- we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning
The first scenario is bad because a really good plan is going to end up "follow this or get lynched." Look at the pick your power games, liar game, etc. With your plan, we'd have to derail the thread from scumhunting and have a policy discussion later in the game about whether someone who didn't follow "the plan," didn't post 3 suspicions, was scummy or just wasn't suspicious of 3 people. Not posting 3 cases wouldn't be alignment-indicative, so we couldn't just lynch them. There'd have to be discussion of that, which would gunk up the thread. That's the full thought process behind that point. As to the second point I made, having players*3 cases in the thread could lead us to a situation where we were lynching based on case quantity and not case quality. Oh, 70% of people are suspicious of X, so we lynch him. Even if he was most people's third choice, and we had a few folks highly suspicious of Y. Ta da. Overall, I think your plan is bad if you want us to follow, and still bad if you want to gauge reactions to it. You got responses from a little more than half the thread, which is alright, but you need a plan that SOME people want if you're going to actually generate "discussion." You got reactions, but not actual discussion. People weren't weighing the pros and cons of the plan, people were just saying no to it. That doesn't get you the sort of interactions that I want to draw conclusions from, because nobody gains town OR scum points for being the 5th or 6th person to pooh pooh a plan that nobody likes.
I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads? On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote: I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself. Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this: On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. When he speaks about DropBear later, we get: On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote: I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this"
I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic. He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts. I'm getting some seriously bad vibes from the first half of this post - it seems like there's way too much detail responding to Talis's "you copied marv" thing, when one or two sentences would do. (and when I'm telling you you put too much detail into a post, you've got a problem.) Then you jump back into actually arguing about whether or not the plan is a good idea, which even tali has moved on from. I don't see a vote, I don't see him trying to get other people's thoughts on them, and most importantly I don't really see him as actually interested in pressuring those people...he just seems to softly accuse them and nothing else. For instance take his austin "accusation".....does he think austin is scum or not? Like...what does he conclude? He just calls him out on something, but we don't know if he's accusing him or pressuring him or whatever, since he doesn't follow up on it later at all. For claiming he's trying to "establishing his innocence" he's doing a very bad job, he makes a fluffy post about "balance" and about "keeping an eye on marv", then keeps cluttering up the thread with that "balance" issue, then makes half-assed accusations against me+austin.
Keirathi: On July 12 2012 08:19 Keirathi wrote:sciberbia wrote: I'm not a big fan of lynching lurkers. Obviously, lurking hurts town, but I don't think lurking is all that alignment-indicative. Seeing as our goal is to lynch scum, I will only give slight preference to lynching the lurker over the active player, everything else being even.
I'm not convinced that masons, millers, or roleblockers should claim, but I've never played in a setup quite like this before and I haven't thought much about it. I'll read up on the issue and see if I agree with you guys.
Well, ideally since this is not a newbie game, we shouldn't have townies lurking much. Its a bit different in newbie games because people don't really know how to play, and since everyone here should have a decent idea of how to play, then people lurking is strategy rather than ignorance. That's not to say that I think lynching lurkers is a particularly good idea, but looking into lurkers has more merit in this type of game than a newbie one. As far as claims, I myself haven't played in a game where masons/roleblockers claimed, so I'll have to look into it, but I agree with the points made about RB'ers so far, so that at least makes sense. An unclaimed miller causes more confusion than its worth though, and I can't really think of a situation in which a miller wouldn't want to claim. This post seems a very "I'm trying to contribute here!" one. Spends WAY too much time talking about lurkers and policies, and doesn't even take any interesting stance in the mason/RBer issue (i.e if he had an interesting stance it would be actually a contribution). He just spouts some fluffy stuff about them that only serves to make his post bigger solstice called him out as "verbose" (which was right): On July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote:On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Yet he keeps doing the same thing. He's still "verbose", and his post doesn't contribute shit at all. He says "I'm verbose because of something irrelevant" and "Rehash of what other people said". Not only that, he acknowledges himself that he's rehashing what other people said....yet that doesn't prevent him from posting it and doesn't prevent him from trying to find something else to contribute. His other posts don't call too much attention, yet then he comes out of nowhere with this: On July 13 2012 03:33 Keirathi wrote:On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing:+ Show Spoiler +since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). So I was going back through the thread looking for more information, when this leaped out at me. When I read it the first time through, I didn't think anything of it because I don't have previous experience with you, but if you propose the same plan in every game you play in, then how is it "half-assed musing" this time? It feels like you're pre-emptively making an excuse for a bad plan. And why, as a townie, are you half-assing things anyways? ...???? This is so out of place it's not funny. Like, Vivax had 2 votes on him and a case against him, some other FoSes were flowing around (marv on S&B at first, then Vivax on Mattchew, etc); yet when Kei posts he thinks it's more useful to discuss tali's plan again? Not only that, but discuss something so pointless and irrelevant like tali's "motive" for making the plan because it was "half-assed" or some shit? Like....he completely ignored everything else in the thread, wtf? Now here's my dilemma:Who the fuck do I vote? I want all 3 dead Hmm, I think austin+Keirath are more likely scum than S&B, but I guess Keiarth could be just noob and plays like this because he's noob, so lets go with this. ##Vote: austinmcc Gee how did I guess Gonzaw was gonna post a ginormous wall of text calling me scum again. It's like, if Gonzaw doesn't call you scum, you're not doing things right. If you think that defending yourself against minor accusations is a scum tell then you haven't learned from the right scum sensei. Good scum want to ignore anything that calls attention to their minor inconsistencies or other problems with their play. It's townies who want to make sure they address little things like "active lurking" accusations. As well as whatever the fuck you're accusing me of here. So I guess your points are that I "defended myself too much" and "didn't back up my reads?" Dude did you not just play a game with me? I almost never vote during the first 24 hours of the day. The vote is a tool for pressuring people, not just something you use to announce who you think is scum. And what's wrong with me pointing out things that I find scummy? It's like the first half of the first day, I don't know enough about anyone yet to be sure they're scum. Yeah, I think austin's post was scummy; I think Marv's post was scummy. That doesn't mean I think we should lynch them, it means they should freaking explain yourselves or whatever. Christ gonzaw you're frustrating. And you say I "cluttered up the thread with the balance shit" - do you notice that every time I mentioned it I said "it doesn't matter" and "we should be focusing on whether we think what Marv said was scummy"? Because I only kept talking about it because he was accusing me of being scum because I said it. Yeah so Gonzaw you want me to vote for someone? Well tough fuckin' titties. I think it's interesting that Marv found that inconsistency with Vixen or whoever he is; but it's not conclusive by any means. Right now I actually agree with you that austin is the most likely scum; like I said in the post you quoted, he went way more in detail than he needed to in responding to the thing about copying other people, and he also tried to reopen the discussion of tali's shitty plan thing. But I'm not ready to vote on it yet. I want to see how he responds to your ridiculous wall of text.
...relax dude. Wtf? Are you going to act like this every time you are accused? Damn you are worse than Greymist.
Sorry, but this "defense" is you just acting all angry and "annoyed" at me (could serve to clutter things up, but you could do it as town too), so I'll just disregard it. If you want to "establish your innocence" then get to it. You don't need to have 100% accurate reads 1 hour into D1 to establish your innocence.
On July 13 2012 07:05 Mattchew wrote: Gonzaw I strongly (pun intended) believe the strong is town and I do not want to lynch him today. He says stupid stuff, like "Sorry bro, but that's kind of the nature of the game I guess - any post could be made either by scum or by town? " but he also posts about his gut reads, which while they can be faked, I don't think he did. I think gut reads are very townie
Weren't you the one that found his post suspicious? :/ Why are you backing off? Why the change of heart?
On July 13 2012 07:13 Mattchew wrote:Lets kill talis, Keirathi or scib Talis cause he's proposing anti town plans and then backpeddling super fast Keirathi cause he's posting super carefully, and his reads seem forced scib cause he seems hesitant to post, and he posts this (it was spoilered) Show nested quote +Obviously, we should be lynching every day until we have good reason not to. I will push to get my scumreads lynched, but I will prefer any lynch to a No-Lynch.
I'm not a big fan of lynching lurkers. Obviously, lurking hurts town, but I don't think lurking is all that alignment-indicative. Seeing as our goal is to lynch scum, I will only give slight preference to lynching the lurker over the active player, everything else being even.
as he has not pushed a single read yet
I don't agree about killing talis nor sciberbia.
About talismania:
Talis' plan was "bad" but that alone doesn't make him scum. When he posted he seemed to interact with people in a genuine way I think. The way he was discussing the RB deal and shit made me think he was town, mostly because he was eager to discuss it and interact with me/others. I think he seems townie for now, so I wouldn't want him lynched D1.
About sciberbia:
He did "push" some reads here:
On July 12 2012 13:31 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote: marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so).
gonzaw asked for some thoughts on Risen, strongandbig, and Mattchew. Obviously there is not much to go on yet, but here are my thoughts so far: risen+ Show Spoiler +I am a bit suspicious of risen1)s0Lstice mentioned risen's conscious change in meta, which could make a lot of sense for someone playing as scum. It's a perfect defense to any meta arguments made against him: he can say he is actively trying to change the way he plays town. 2)Risen's overall tone is amiable and pleasant, which can be indicative of scum trying to be well-liked. I expect a more firm, objective, analytic tone from townies. See these posts: On July 12 2012 07:56 Risen wrote: Welcome to ICBINTMM in which Risen does not post in caps or call anyone an idiot THE ENTIRE GAME. Stay tuned to see if this actually happens...... On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: It's cool. It's nothing compared to what I handled from igrok my last game. Anywho, I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. On July 12 2012 10:41 Risen wrote: I'm down to call people out on their stupidity, I'm just not going to be so aggressive about it. So just take anywhere I'd call someone an idiot, a horrible host, a bad person, a failure at life, etc and replace it with kinder, gentler words. I think... On July 12 2012 10:42 Risen wrote: EBWOP: This shift isn't to appease anyone. I'm only doing it b/c past experience has shown that calling out idiots on their horrible play leads to them being reinforced in their opinions. So now I'll try to be gentle, kind Risen and guide them like sheeple. On July 12 2012 11:26 Risen wrote:I've heard worse plans On July 12 2012 12:39 Risen wrote: Holy shit I used a smiley face... Of course it is also plausible that risen is townie and just trying to have some fun. 3) For me, the most suspicious thing in Risen's filter is his address @gonzaw: On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote: Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early. As gonzaw pointed out, this is some shoddy scumhunting. First of all, "looking for easy targets to push early" isn't very convincing mafia motivation for gonzaw's posts. But more importantly, Risen is condescending towards gonzaw but then concludes that gonzaw is either eager townie or scum. Risen doesn't actually say anything worthwhile at all in this post. One townie point in Risen's filter: On July 12 2012 10:41 Risen wrote: I'm down to call people out on their stupidity, I'm just not going to be so aggressive about it. So just take anywhere I'd call someone an idiot, a horrible host, a bad person, a failure at life, etc and replace it with kinder, gentler words. I think... On July 12 2012 10:42 Risen wrote: EBWOP: This shift isn't to appease anyone. I'm only doing it b/c past experience has shown that calling out idiots on their horrible play leads to them being reinforced in their opinions. So now I'll try to be gentle, kind Risen and guide them like sheeple. His 1-minute EBWOP shows that he is unafraid and didn't put all too much thought into either of these posts. I see this as indicative of a townie. There are all my thoughts on Risen. I'm keeping my eye on him. strongandbig+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 07:33 strongandbig wrote: sup bros i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room. Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated I'm not going to find him scummy off this one post. If anything, I think he is townie because I think a scum strongandbig would be more likely to pause his movie and go make a decent post or two than a townie strongandbig who isn't as worried. Mattchew+ Show Spoiler + I don't have a significant read on anything in his filter right now. His first post doesn't strike me as scummy.
Also, I am a little bit suspicious of marv+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Talis proposed a slightly idealistic, impractical, and unnecessary plan. I think this was clear to everybody. But Marv not only takes the time to criticize talis's ideas, but also says that he'd like to lynch talis. A good, townie marv should say something like "Talis proposed a 'nonsense' plan. I think this is evidence that he is mafia because X, Y, and Z. Therefore I would like to lynch him." But marv doesn't say why he thinks talis is scummy. In fact marv doesn't even say that talis is scummy, just that he would like to lynch talis for his "never-ending bullshit". @marv Do you really think talis is scummy? If so, why?
They seemed genuine to me. I get a gut town read on him, the way he posts and responded to my question and stuff made me think that.
Also this:
On July 12 2012 15:44 sciberbia wrote: on Risen I'm no longer suspicious of Risen. His recent posting reads townie to me. The last 3 posts have been direct responses with response times of 4 minutes, 4 minutes, and 3 minutes. Additionally, the substance of these 3 posts is somewhat controversial and could catch him some flak (having no reads, wanting to make connections first, thinking dropbear is suspicious). It would take guts as scum to make such posts so quickly. Risen gives me the feeling he is completely unafraid, even though gonzaw and I previously voiced suspicions of him. So now I'm thinking townie on him.
The way he backed off Risen doesn't make me really think he's scum. "Noob" scum rarely back off people and thoroughly explain why (unless of course they are scumbuddies).
Why are you voting him Mattchew? What about all those guys I listed in my previous post? (Risen/Dropbear/Milkton/Kei/austin)
Do you think sciberbia is more likely scum than any of them?
What do you think of austin?
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@marv+Mattchew: I'd like both of your opinions on austin+Keirath+those guys I posted about.
I can't see anybody other than those 6 being scum for the moment (Milkton's last post doesn't strike me as scummy, so he could be town perhaps), so I think we should focus our attention on them for today's lynch
Of course I won't "force" you to do anything (if you think someone else is scum), but at least pay some attention to those guys and if you trust my reads pay even MORE attention to them and post your thoughts
(this applies to everybody too).
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I still don't get wtf austin is doing
On July 13 2012 06:04 austinmcc wrote:Milton's post is fluffy but as people keep noting every time he comes up, he said he'd be gone for 12-24 hours before the game started: Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 17:31 Miltonkram wrote: Eh, screw it. I'll /in this game if people don't mind me being a little inactive for the first 12-24 hours. The players in this game look too good to pass up. No read on him yet.
Here were my earlier thoughts on Risen: + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote:I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads? Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote: I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself. Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. When he speaks about DropBear later, we get: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote: I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this"
I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic. He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts. Hasn't really been activity since then, so my read is roughly the same. I don't like that a lot of his filter is about how he's going to play this game, with the rest being non-reads and his statement that he doesn't like to make reads early. I still don't know what to make of the statement about not liking to make reads early. It doesn't fully correspond with past games. I said I'd go back and look, and I did. SSB:+ Show Spoiler +On July 03 2012 04:26 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 04:15 kingdedede wrote:On July 03 2012 04:09 iGrok wrote: It's all about how difficult it is to lynch them. There are a lot of things that are -1kp in this game. Cutting everyone down from 3 to 2.5 is very nice for us because then it only takes 2 actions to kill them instead of 3 (or two lynches) Ah, that makes a lot more sense. It's all about the vig shots. While scum kp is also 1, the chance of scum shooting someone who just got lynched is pretty small: why would they bother shooting someone who got lynched (aka: looks scummy)? However, it allows us to vig shoot someone who was lynched and not waste 2 lynches on it. Bringing down everybody's stock sounds like a good idea. How can you be agreeing with this? iGrok you've hosted this before I feel like your giant cred post at the very beginning was an attempt to make everyone confirm you as town right off the bat, but as someone coming in late to the party I think your behavior is very scummy and I don't think someone who knew how this game worked would suggest your plan. We should be minimizing town stock loss. What do you mean "if the scum don't follow us it's clear who they are". Yeah no shit, this plan works out perfect for them why wouldn't "they" follow it. The more I think about it the more I KNOW you wouldn't post some stupid idea like this as town. Add to this your removal of two people from the item position list? What the heck man. All you've done by removing two people from the item list is make it so mafia has a better chance of getting an item. Want to minimize mafia chance of item while maximizing town chance so we're not double stacking? Then have us go down the list in numerical order and say that's left, bottom left, center, etc. Same for left, center, right on the position discussion. I'm going to be voting iGrok for lynch at this point. On July 03 2012 06:13 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 06:13 Cephiro wrote:On July 03 2012 05:59 Risen wrote: Exactly WHAT does standing on the same platform tell us? It tells us NOTHING. 1) It gives us insight on iGrok's thoughts. (He made a very neutral/safe choice, punishing everyone or no-one, not grouping people yet, which he however IS doing in his item picks/sit-outs. He also gave a valid reasoning, it may not necessarily be the optimal choice, but I haven't seen anyone else give a better idea yet.) 2) The reactions of the players on iGrok's choices. (For example, you insist on not going left with everyone, which you haven't given a valid reason for. Or talismania willing to sit-out, even though there is no risk of a fight [Stock loss] if people follow the plan.) So tell me, have a better idea? For now all I am seeing is that you are saying you are not going to follow the plan. (Which you say is because this gives us no information, which is false.) And in your latest posts you were thinking of dividing by the list. (Which doesn't give us any information at all.) I can say it's not much, but it's better than nothing, and we need something to get the scumhunting started. If you're still going to go against the plan without either a) Giving a better idea or b) Giving proper reasoning, then you're certainly not looking good in my eyes. Found the other scum. Two total? Easy game. On July 03 2012 07:02 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 07:00 iGrok wrote:On July 03 2012 06:54 Risen wrote:On July 03 2012 06:50 Cephiro wrote: Because you're clearly smarter than me, would you care to explain more in-detail why do you consider that both factions losing percentually the same amount of stock out of their total, thus the ratio staying the same, is worse off for town?
If I understood right, you'd rather do a 3-2-3 split. Assuming there are 2 scum, best case scenario is if both scum end up in the middle and a tornado hits them both. Chances of this happening is (1/3)*(1/4)*(1/7) ~ 1,18% Worst case scenario is that it hits three townies: (1/3)*(3/4)*(5/7)*(2/3) ~ 11,19%
The chance of worst case scenario happening for town is almost 10 times higher than scum, if my math is not wrong.
Can you explain me why your plan is better?
Especially as iGrok's plan only has a 33% chance of anyone taking damage, and if it happens, we all take damage in an equal ratio.
End ratio isn't equal. Someone else posted on this. Stand where you want to stand people, don't be directed. No information comes from all of us standing on a single square. Damage outweighs benefits imo. Think that sums well. NO, HE POSTED THAT THE END RATIOS ARE EQUAL. QUIT BEING OBTUSE. Don't post in big caps. I was wrong on that, cool. Fact remains we have a smaller buffer. No need to shout. I'm almost 100% iGrok is scum. He doesn't get heated like this usually. Within the first day of SSB, he's decided two players are scum. However, his Cephiro read DOES match up with what he said this game, that he likes connection cases, because he finds Cephiro scummy based on his finding iGrok scummy Area 53: + Show Spoiler +On April 22 2012 03:04 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 02:54 layabout wrote: Anybody feel like Risen is hustlin' us? I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me. ##vote layabout I'm done for now. I'll change my vote if someone does something scummy but I don't see anything and I think someone trying to push a wagon at this point is our best bet. I'll vote for the hydra too. On April 22 2012 03:39 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 03:31 slOosh wrote: Hey layabout I think Risen is acting really off. Agree / disagree? Oh hey look, easy wagon member #1 On April 23 2012 05:33 Risen wrote: Honestly johnnywup is my biggest scumread atm Pac. I have no idea why he thinks forwarding another lynch candidate at the last second is a good idea, and it just shits up the thread. Do we take the case against him seriously? Do we try and organize everyone to swap their votes over to zeph even though no one else has mentioned zeph as a serious candidate thus far? We can't do that, we don't have the time.
I know I was against it before, but I don't see how marvel could be pushing a lynch on VE right now. We can't lynch our claimed JK. It's been stated in the thread but I'll state it again. You don't lynch a claimed doctor, and we shouldn't lynch the closest thing we have to a doctor. Is it possible VE is lying? Yup. He might be lying and be a vigi, or a tracker, or scum, or vanilla. Doesn't matter. The only shitty thing is that the person who is jailed doesn't know they were jailed, so I don't know how to confirm his claim.
Regardless, a vote on VE is stupid. It's just like everyone who voted for me when I claimed a guaranteed sane detective with a red check. Only an idiot would vote for said blue unless it was LYLO. It's applicable here. We can't lynch someone who claims such a powerful blue role right now. Is it a shitty claim? Yeah. I don't think it was smart, but we have to roll with it now that it's in the open. Any trackers watch him, I guess.
I'm voting marvel. Pre-EBWOP I just looked at the voting thread prior to hitting post. What the hell is going on? How can you lynch a claimed blue? This is so stupid. If need be I'll vote BM b/c I'm all for lynching someone who's being useless, but for now my vote is resting on marvel.
##vote marvellosity On April 23 2012 06:45 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 01:16 gonzaw wrote:Risen:I'd like to lynch Risen and I'll tell you why On April 22 2012 02:22 Risen wrote:On April 22 2012 01:42 layabout wrote:How are you feeling VE? Any thoughts on marvellosity paqman or mattchew? we need Risen to rise and get posting we need ghost 403 to de-cloak we need St.Daniel to grace us with his presence we need Janaan to get out of bed we need slOosh to stop fapping to Beethoven *we need BroodkingEXE to execute som scum for us we need Bill Murray to get his head in the game we need Zephirrd to tell you guys to stop posting shit we need layabout to stop with the puns lead us to victory Yeah I'm sorry. Just woke up. I'll get posting. Posting lots is pro-town and from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy. I'd rather we put pressure on someone who isn't posting. I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting. From the last page I do have a problem with mementoss' idea. It seems solid but as you said on this page, all vigs would have to get on board. I don't like directing blues in the first place (i realize this game has special stuff going on, though, so I don't think forwarding the idea is scummy. I just don't think we should do it). Another problem with your plan mt is your directing of jailkeepers. By directing jk away from targets and the vigis you give scum a potential three kill night. They can kill the vig, another person, and then if the vigi target is town they get to laugh at us. To sum, don't direct blues. I think there's been enough discussion about it and with no clearly best plan there's no way to get everyone behind one plan. This post is wishy washy as hell. First he starts by being unnecessary apologetic when laya called him out. He posts a very wishy washy statement like "from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy". Really? That's not the town Risen I know of. The town Risen I know of would instantly find people scummy and try to create discussion. Town Risen wouldn't stay neutral and spout wishy washy shit like "I'm not sure who's scummy". Then he keeps trying to appear more "innocent" and neutral by saying things like "I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting". Then the rest of the post is fluff about Mementos' plan. He doesn't seem to have a solid stance on the matter (says things like "I don't like directing blues, though I realize this game has special stuff going on") yet he just keeps talking about it. Also, please note the tone of his post. It seems neutral, but most of all it's not aggressive at all. It seems submisive. Layabout called him out and he seems afraid and posts only because he was called out. Also take notice of the bolded "Posting lots is pro-town" bit, I'll use it later. On April 22 2012 02:28 Risen wrote: I don't get your reasoning mt or anyone else's voting for marvel. He's posting and it's very early day 1. There isn't that much to go off of so I don't think he's scummy. I hate lurkers, they always fuck us and it isn't pro-town at all. I'd rather not lynch someone who's here day 1. Posting is pro-town and I don't think we should be scaring people away from posting day 1 bc it just gives people an excuse to be worthless He just barely comments on the marvel issue, but doesn't really take any stances. He keeps up with his "I still don't think anybody is scummy" excuse to avoid taking stances on people. He also doesn't comment on other things happening in the thread, like VE's "case" on me, or my case against VE, or the Paqman/Mattchew issue, nothing. Again, note the bolded bit too. On April 22 2012 03:04 Risen wrote:On April 22 2012 02:54 layabout wrote: Anybody feel like Risen is hustlin' us? I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me. ##vote layabout I'm done for now. I'll change my vote if someone does something scummy but I don't see anything and I think someone trying to push a wagon at this point is our best bet. I'll vote for the hydra too. Now here's the kicker. Here he goes against layabout and votes him, and his reason is "I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me"... ...really? I already said how this seems like Toad's play from LI. He ignores current discussion, he avoids taking a stance on the current events, and instead decides to FoS someone completely irrelevant for shitty reasons, and keeps his vote there. This vote only disrupts town because he fails to justify it and derails current discussions. Not only that, but it makes it so he can "justify" his vote and just leave it there, so he can fake trying to contribute. But there's another important thing to take into account: Notice how aggressive he's become against layabout.Why did the tone of his post and his behaviour change so much? In that first post he sounded afraid. Laya called him out and he sounded submissive against him, he was the opposite of aggressive. He posted trying to please laya, had a very neutral tone, was wishy-washy and didn't take any stances. Yet now that layabout points out Risen being suspicious, he flips and goes all crazy against him? Really? I don't buy that change of behaviour, it's inconsisent, it's way too sudden and doesn't make sense with the way he was posting before. Hey, remember that bolded bits I was mentioning before? Here: Posting lots is pro-town He says that posting a lot is pro-town, yet he's not following his own advice and is barely posting!So really people, Risen is scum because: - He barely posts at all even though he said posting a lot is pro-town and people should be encouraged to do it
- Starts off wishy washy as hell, sounds very submissive and afraid of being called out, ignores current discussions and doesn't take stances on them, posts uninteresting fluff about directing blues while not even taking a solid stance on the matter
- Makes a very flimsy vote on layabout and doesn't justify it at all
- Has a very sudden change of behaviour. He becomes aggressive very quickly while his previous behaviour was the opposite of that
- He doesn't play like when he does as town at all. As town he posts without fear or hesitation, he actively calls people out and tries whatever he can to get some discussion going. As town he posts more and pushes people more, as town he doesn't park a vote on someone irrelevant for irrelevant reasons and remains hidden for the rest of the day
So people, let's lynch Risen ##Unvote: VisceraEyes ##Vote: Risen What kind of stupid shit is this? By request of jubjub Pac I'll respond. Wishy washy? What the hell do you want from me not even a day into the game? How the hell could ANYONE have true feelings of someone being scum that early on. You can have policies that guide you, such as kill every idiot you see, like anyone on VE or lynch lurkers like BM, but you can't possibly have feelings of people being scummy that early on. Only people who are atrocious at this game would take that point seriously. Oh look, we have pac taking it seriously. I'm so shocked. You say this posting looks like Toad from LI? Awesome. I'm not Toad. Also, where do you get me being SUBMISSIVE to layabout. The guy was playing like an idiot and I called him out on it. If you count me apologizing for cursing as being "submissive" then you need to get your head checked. How can you go from me voting layabout to trying to get approval from him. Stupidity at it's finest. BUT Pac wants me to address this piece of shit case so lets keep going. On to your little bullets. 1) I've been busy as all hell, but I've been trying to come in and read and post instead of lurk. Screw it, I should have just lurked. You're right, posting in the thread is anti-town. My bad, I was wrong. I'll stop posting. 2) Not taking a solid stance? I SAID DONT DIRECT BLUES. IT IS BAD. How much more solid does it get? What do I have to do to make it more solid? 3) A flimsy vote on layabout? You right... because votes before a day has passed in the game are going to be super solid. Oh wait. They're not. Only an idiot or scum would try and say something like this. I'm leaning idiot because at least your vote isn't with the derps on VE. 4) I like how you call me passive and then point number 4 is saying I'm being too aggressive. This case is air tight guys, let's all get on the Risen choo choo. Right Janaan? 5) People don't have lives my b I always forget about that. I wasn't supposed to head back to Vegas until next weekend and when I signed up for this game it didn't matter anyways. It took two years to start, though, and I've only been able to read the thread from my phone. Now I'm able to type on a keyboard and tear this horrid case to shreds. I'll sum this case for all you dolts voting on me. Risen isn't playing like his town play usually is (but lets not link any of Risen's filters and quote anything from previous games, lets just SAY that's how it is and pray people don't actually check his filters.) Wow. Slam dunk case Paq, glad I took the time to respond to it. Why are you on me again? I don't have much time, I'm driving back to Flagstaff very shortly. I'm going to cut all this nonsense short and post cases against every person on VE. They're all idiots and/or scum who should be killed. Risen was scum this game, threw around a good number of votes in thread but not as many actual reads as above. Again, focused heavily on connections like who was voting for VE or who found him scummy after the "Risen is scum" idea was proposed GoT:+ Show Spoiler +On March 23 2012 06:01 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 22:54 Acrofales wrote: Okay seriously WTF. I know I'm new to this game, but voting me for that reason alone makes no sense. In fact, it seems quite a scum move to cast suspicion on people right at the start of the game.
Or am I going overboard and it's just a way of getting people to post at the start of the game? Either way, I'm watching you and risk.nuke. Voting off the bat seems fishy. Everything about this post screams emotional overreaction to being voted with something that is clearly not a serious vote. Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 02:23 Acrofales wrote:On March 22 2012 01:50 DoYouHas wrote:Acrofales reads exactly like newb scum to me from his first posts. His first post reads as already being defensive to me: On March 21 2012 18:51 Acrofales wrote:Hi everybody! Well, Curu hasn't said I cannot speculate about Petyr's win condition. Remember that this is idle speculation, but I have read the books a number of times and if Petyr is anything, he is untrustworthy. He only serves his own means, so I am inclined to ignore everything he says, including that he is a vanilla townie My hunch is that he must kill Ned Stark and keep Catelyn and/or Sansa alive until the end of the game to win. And then he pulls an OMGUS on 2 different people in a very short period of time. ##Vote: AcrofalesGumshoe, wake up and read day1 carefully. We already know who Littlefinger is 100%. It is given information. Your posts are yet to actually be relevant to the game. What you bolded was basically a follow-up to my question before the game started: On March 20 2012 18:13 Acrofales wrote:Are we allowed to speculate about what Littlefinger's win condition is? I have a hunch Unfortunately it has nothing to do with Dementors eating Daenerys baby in order to generate infinite facebook spam messages. As for the rest, I've calmed down a bit, with later people talking about the random votes. It is my first game (ever) and I was hoping to live past the first day. People instavoting for me got me a bit upset. I am happy to unvote Matthew when a better candidate comes up, the ghost of High Heart is kinda cryptic when it comes to her prophecies It was more of a "if you vote for me, then I'll vote for you"-thing anyway. That said, Matthew, why did you vote for me? Chaoser already had the random vote on me. The 2nd one was just mean. That vote has been the entire contribution to this game, with no explanation or text (except for a lololololol, which is even less useful). For reasons I can't put my finger on, I get the feeling from this post that Acro is either horrible, horrible town, or trying to just talk with mattchew so they can generate discussion that looks pro-town. Makes me feel like Acro and mattchew are both scum. Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:34 Acrofales wrote:On March 22 2012 05:16 Mattchew wrote:On March 22 2012 03:15 Acrofales wrote: Any further discussion will have to wait til I'm home. Be back in about an hour.
PS. I read through a couple of games before signing up for this one. It's quite different to play than to watch! :D where you at homeslice and why should i think you are not scum Because I'm town. How about you? More proof of my earlier feeling. Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 06:21 Acrofales wrote:On March 22 2012 06:13 Mattchew wrote:On March 22 2012 05:34 Acrofales wrote:On March 22 2012 05:16 Mattchew wrote:On March 22 2012 03:15 Acrofales wrote: Any further discussion will have to wait til I'm home. Be back in about an hour.
PS. I read through a couple of games before signing up for this one. It's quite different to play than to watch! :D where you at homeslice and why should i think you are not scum Because I'm town. How about you? so you ignore the case against you and then come back with a one liner holding no information? i say we lynch acrofales and everyone that has defended him I'm still trying to figure out what case that is. I have already said twice now why I overreacted at first. Although I am starting to think my reaction was the right one. You're clearly not adding anything: you choose to ignore the two posts I made in defense of my overreaction, and now mention some case against me. Post your case clearly and properly and I will respond to you, but at the moment you just seem to be trolling me. Even more... Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 23:39 Acrofales wrote:Why we should lynch Mattchew: First off, he starts building an alibi with a case made of air. I understand the pressure vote, but his follow-up was lackluster: On March 22 2012 02:21 Mattchew wrote:On March 22 2012 02:15 Lyter wrote: I'd say ignore wbg at least for now, we have absolutely no idea what his motives/intentions could be, when more of a picture is formed then we should come back to it by all means. I'm not sure on Acrofales, yea he could be flipping a shit cos he got called out so early, but his actions are hardly unlikely for a new guy anyway. oh so your his scum teammate? I understand that this is his character, but it is a very useless accusation. You assume I'm scum, therefore everybody who defends me must also be scum. His main reason for calling me scum is: On March 22 2012 03:28 Mattchew wrote:On March 22 2012 03:26 GreYMisT wrote: Explain to us why he is. over defensive "im a noob" that doesn't want to be be put in the spotlight. look at his reaction compared to the other "noob" guy with a vote on him. its way more aggressive and emotionally angry. The meta-comparison is a completely moot point, as had been pointed out by a number of people. So you were basically tunneling on me, and the reasons given are flimsy at best. Secondly, his defense when other people start questioning his motives: + Show Spoiler [Reply to Zentor] +On March 22 2012 06:10 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 05:32 MrZentor wrote:Hello people of Mafia! It is I, MrZentor! Anyways, I thought this started a day after it did, so I am a little late to the party. Let me tell everybody my opinion, so you can get a good read on me! First we have Acrofales overreacting to a vote that didn't have a basis. On March 21 2012 22:54 Acrofales wrote: Okay seriously WTF. I know I'm new to this game, but voting me for that reason alone makes no sense. In fact, it seems quite a scum move to cast suspicion on people right at the start of the game.
Or am I going overboard and it's just a way of getting people to post at the start of the game? Either way, I'm watching you and risk.nuke. Voting off the bat seems fishy. He then votes for Mattchew. On March 22 2012 00:04 Acrofales wrote: Hodor's terribly talkative all of a sudden.
Luckily I have better sources than that. The Ghost of High Heart told me that you are scum.
##vote: Mattchew Lyter defends Acrofales. On March 22 2012 02:15 Lyter wrote: I'd say ignore wbg at least for now, we have absolutely no idea what his motives/intentions could be, when more of a picture is formed then we should come back to it by all means. I'm not sure on Acrofales, yea he could be flipping a shit cos he got called out so early, but his actions are hardly unlikely for a new guy anyway. Then Mattchew, bad spelling in hand, attacks Lyter for defending Acrofales On March 22 2012 02:21 Mattchew wrote:On March 22 2012 02:15 Lyter wrote: I'd say ignore wbg at least for now, we have absolutely no idea what his motives/intentions could be, when more of a picture is formed then we should come back to it by all means. I'm not sure on Acrofales, yea he could be flipping a shit cos he got called out so early, but his actions are hardly unlikely for a new guy anyway. oh so your his scum teammate? I really don't like that Mattchew attacks Lyter for defending Acrofales, who I think at this point is innocent. It also seems silly that Mattchew is 100% positive that Acrofales is innocent over one nooby overreaction. If you look at Mattchew's filter, you will see he only said something slightly helpful when he was asked to; everything else is just him attacking other people without any real reason. For now, I think he is most likely to be scum. then MrZentor, bad reading comprehension in hand, makes a terrible post with his lead point of his slippery slope theory being untrue because Mattchew (who is awesome, sexy and lover of all townies) never even voted for Acrofales! He does not answer MrZentor's questions or doubts, but instead deflects them and builds a straw man argument about whether or not he voted. This deflection is successful, because the rest of the entire page of discussion is about whether or not he actually voted: he STILL has not answered MrZentor's questions. + Show Spoiler [Reply to Chaoser] +On March 22 2012 07:35 Mattchew wrote:lol Show nested quote + yet he has not commented on anything else aside from tunneling acro, even when the other stuff happening in thread is tied to acro or has been a reaction to acro's posting. Mattchew has literally added nothing to the discussion while looking like he's applying pressure. It's basically false pressure. so you want me to comment on what I am involved with already? wut? and all i did was pressure a newbie who had a bad reaction, i just wanted to push him, and make him post some more. The thread has talked about WBG (which is stupid), Gumshoe's "scumslip" (A common scum tactic to "catch" a townie on) and me/acro More deflection without actually giving his opinion (except that the Acro-Mattchew controversy is the only useful thing in the thread to that point, which I disagree with). Third, and final point: he is really trying to use meta-arguments to make himself look good in the discussion between him and DoYouHas. This is basically just useless fluff which serves only as a meta-defense as "look, I'm not a screwup noob". Okay, lets say I buy that. That leaves you being scum as the only explanation for you building a case out of air and avoiding any other meaningful discussion. Newest info: his last post is actually something of substance, but I'm suspicious of him anyway. It might just be him realizing his gambit is failing and posting something townie. Specifically his sudden change to me being town Entire post is about how he wants to lynch Mattchew... but the last line is telling. He's clearly giving himself an out for when he decides miraculously not to vote mattchew because "someone more scummy" has come along. Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 03:47 Acrofales wrote:On March 23 2012 00:50 Risen wrote: Class for another hour and a half, time for some reading when I get back. (Just an update for those who may think I'm lurking since I haven't posted as much as I should have) Most useless "I'm saying I'm not, but secretly am still lurking"-post I have seen in this thread. I think you might be beating out Evantrees for king of the lurks. Remember that in the Game of Thrones kings tend to lose their heads. A legitimate post calling out a lurker. My feeling: [r]scum[/r] He's the most scummy read I have thus far. On March 23 2012 06:04 Risen wrote: Most of my problems with Mattchew have been summed up in my post on acro. He's either town who is seriously focusing on one guy who other people find suspicious (why should he spend so much time refuting what this guy is saying), or he's scum and coasting by arguing with another mafia guy. Neutral read for now. Scumread on Acro, although a good ways into D1. Finds Mattchew possibly scummy based on his interactions with Acro. I stopped at that point, although there's a little more GoT D1 and LI. But he DOES look like he makes a lot of his reads, even D1, off of connections. The game in which he was most active with voting, he was scum. For now I still find his filter this game odd, because it's quite a few posts to not have reads, but past games make me less uneasy about his statement that he doesn't like to scumhunt early, it's not just making an excuse to coast for a day or two this time around. Right now I'm leaning town on him, because of his response at the end of SSB64. In the scum QT there, Acro and Cephiro talk about how to deal with him, and note that "if he learned to control his rage and angst i think he'd be a really good player." So for now, I think that while his filter seems off, it's off because he's trying to actually do that. I think that also addresses some of your worries here Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:15 gonzaw wrote: However, his "kind" attitude and way he's posting make me wary. Like, the way he posts is very weird and would certainly call people's attention....but isn't it too obvious perhaps? Like, it seems he doesn't really care how people see him, which doesn't make me that confident in thinking he's scum. But meh, I'd appreciate people's thoughts on him
because the kind attitude and posting style are perhaps an adjustment from the norm. Oh, I've been ninjaed by your other post. I'll respond to that shortly.
So...you think Risen is town then? I don't get this, why did you go through the trouble of searching 3 games of his just to see if his "claim" made sense? if you think he's town, why analyze all his games and shit yet still say that "his filter this game is odd". Like, you go through all this trouble to not conclude pretty much anything.
....but why? Why not do this with someone you actually think is scum instead (not someone you think may be town)? Why not pay attention to the game first and post your thoughts on other players/scumhunt instead of focusing 100% of your attention on 1 guy you don't even think is scum?
This doesn't make much sense whether you are scum or town to be honest, you are wasting too much effort to do something not worthwhile at all in both scenarios.
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On July 13 2012 08:35 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw - I'm trying to digest everyone's responses to your posts. I agree with you that austin's massive bunch of text about talismania's plan was quite misplaced, but I don't really agree about your criticism of his case on Risen, they seemed decent points to bring up. It concerns me that Keirathi is trying to use meta (or lack of it) as a reason to back off him. Who I'm particularly interested at the moment (read - he's scum), though, is s0lstice. I had this nagging feeling in the back of my head that I was missing someone from all these thoughts you brought up, and it was him. He has a sum total of zero scum reads so far. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:39 s0Lstice wrote: like backflips?
anyway, in the other games I've played with sciberbia, he has had a post prepared as soon as the daypost hit the presses. it usually contains his thoughts on the typical day 1 fodder etc. needless to say he has never played scum.
I'm wondering where he is..
This post, what does it say? 1) sciberbia is always town (so far) 2) sciberbia always makes introductory posts fast at the start of the game 3) sciberbia has not done so here What we're missing is the conclusion. He insinuates the idea that sciberbia might be scum based on the fact that he hasn't posted yet, but he doesn't say it. He just leaves the idea there. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:15 s0Lstice wrote: maybe I misread, but I'm pretty sure Marv was addressing Talis with those lines you quoted, gonzaw.
As far as the names you listed, I wouldn't want to kill any of them right now. Austin has easy town meta, I feel confident I can recognize it. Mattchew, Risen, and s&b are just blank pages. I am nervous however of Risen making a conscious effort to change his play-style. I read him right in SSB64 but just barely.
Lots of people he DOESN'T want to kill. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:57 s0Lstice wrote: it's not too fast. day 1 is weird, and it only really gets going when people do what you do.
right now I'd want to hear from Vivax, mainly.
my dear Vivax, what do you think of the people gonzaw posted about? do you find it scummy that they appeared excited to post, yet didn't say much past their intro? "it's not too fast" - this was in response to gonzaw shooting out the blocks with scumreads and pointing fingers. s0lstice approves of this but does none of it himself. He asks Vivax if he finds something scummy, but he avoids saying that thing is scummy himself. Does Vivax find it scummy... idea planted - without saying what s0lstice thinks. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? More questions... ok. "why so verbose about lurkers?" - you tell me, how is a townie really supposed to answer that question satisfactorily? It's like, a non-question. It feels like he's saying he's suspicious of it without saying anything about it. He asks what Keirathi thinks of talismania's plan but HE DOES NOT OFFER HIS OWN OPINION. His final few posts in his filter are asking about gonzaw and his PM / # of scum crap, saying it gave him townie points. He's... townhunting? There's no scumhunting in s0lstice's filter. There are leading questions to which he never provides his own opinion (talis' plan, 'do you find it scummy' at vivax) or statements where he implies something but never says it (scib hasn't posted yet), and appreciation for gonzaw starting scumhunting early but doing nothing himself. I believe s0lstice to be the best day 1 lynch. ##Unvote ##Vote: s0lstice
...dude, are you scum? You keep attacking and pushing the lynch of all my town reads :/ (first Vivax now solstice).
Or maybe I'm an idiot but I hope that's not the case
Also marv, what about S&B? What about Dropbear or Milkton? Do you think EVERYTHING I posted isn't worthy so you go and try to find scum somewhere else? I dunno dude, I posted that so people could post their thoughts about it (and hopefully) agree and vote some of those guys, not to have it completely ignored.
About solstice:
He seems way to enthusiastic to be scum IMO, for instance:
On July 12 2012 07:22 s0Lstice wrote: hey all, I'm happy to report that I rolled town again.
lots of familiar faces for me in this game, which is a bonus. I think I've played with most of the people here, and I've read a game Keirathi was in. let's kill scum.
On July 12 2012 07:35 s0Lstice wrote: also, totally agree with Gonzaw. claim that shit people
On July 12 2012 08:17 s0Lstice wrote: sciberbia- welcome to the thread! tell me something about keirathi, since you've played with him briefly. did you find it easy to read him as town? He was active in most discussions, and didn't hesitate to post at all, even if they were those "scummy questions" you are talking about. I don't see him as scum, and again (just like Vivax, Mattchew and talis) I don't want him lynched today.
To Austin:
I don't see why talis is scummy because of that "2-plan" of his at all. Like, even if he's scum his alignment has nothing to do with his "plan" to me, so this whole conversation that spans paragraphs and paragraphs of stuff (seriously, you say things like "part 1 and the plan part 2 was so part 1 plan plan was part 2 of the second stage" and it's almost impossible to follow)
So apparently marv was right. If that was so why were you encouraging Risen to contribute? Why are you voting talismania instead of him?
Damn, you just post fluff after fluff and shit...but I'm not that sure if you are scum or not because of it :/ (specially after some people, solstice I think, told us you play like this as town)
You remind me of MidnightGladius, at least in his first games.
On July 13 2012 08:38 sciberbia wrote:My top lynch candidate is currently Keirathineutrality/passivity + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 00:57 marvellosity wrote: Having a quick flick through a few filters, Keirathi comes across as sounding incredibly neutral. I've noticed the same thing about Keirathi as marv: that almost everything hes says is bland and not controversial. He does a lot of talking about very matter-of-fact things: On July 12 2012 08:19 Keirathi wrote: Well, ideally since this is not a newbie game, we shouldn't have townies lurking much. Its a bit different in newbie games because people don't really know how to play, and since everyone here should have a decent idea of how to play, then people lurking is strategy rather than ignorance.
That's not to say that I think lynching lurkers is a particularly good idea, but looking into lurkers has more merit in this type of game than a newbie one.
As far as claims, I myself haven't played in a game where masons/roleblockers claimed, so I'll have to look into it, but I agree with the points made about RB'ers so far, so that at least makes sense. An unclaimed miller causes more confusion than its worth though, and I can't really think of a situation in which a miller wouldn't want to claim. On July 12 2012 08:49 Keirathi wrote: We don't have doctors anyways. On July 12 2012 17:25 Keirathi wrote: He said when he joined that he was going to be afk for 12-24 hours when the game started. On July 13 2012 06:00 Keirathi wrote: Those posts are reasonably close together, and his response to me was the only one where he had been mentioned. Granted, its just the last 3 posts in his filter before you made this accusation, but it seems like a pretty baseless accusation.
Pre-Post edit: sorry I'm replying to this late. I've been working through the 75 posts that were made while I was asleep/at work making notes.
These posts give me the feeling that Keirathi is just looking for easy posts to make. Especially the last one. I don't know why Keirathi feels the need to defend Talis from a very minor accusation from Mattchew. unconvincing scumhunting + Show Spoiler +I could probably look through every other player's filter right now and find an original, insightful reason for accusing somebody. But all of Keirathi's accusations are based off evidence that had already been mentioned or just seems trivial and unconvincing. On July 12 2012 15:38 Keirathi wrote: The only things that have thrown up yellow flags so far were people proposing less than optimal (read: bad) policy plans, ie talis, but I don't feel that was necessarily out of a scum mindset, just didn't think it through very well. However, like I said, its about patterns in behavior which is why I keep notes the way I do (which you saw in NMM XIX).
Here is the first time Keirathi talks about anything he finds even mildly suspicious, and only after I prompted him for it. He repeats the already-covered "bad plans" but doesn't really go anywhere with it. I asked him for suspicions and he wrote a few sentences which say basically nothing. On July 13 2012 03:33 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing: ...
So I was going back through the thread looking for more information, when this leaped out at me. When I read it the first time through, I didn't think anything of it because I don't have previous experience with you, but if you propose the same plan in every game you play in, then how is it "half-assed musing" this time? It feels like you're pre-emptively making an excuse for a bad plan. And why, as a townie, are you half-assing things anyways? I don't buy into his point here at all. He brings up talismania's plan yet again, and makes some very easy criticism of Talis. "pre-emptively making an excuse for a bad plan" isn't convincing scum motivation to me. Talis's post is easy to criticize, but I think it's a stretch to say it's scummy. marv demanded some real reads and Keirathi posted this in response: + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 06:55 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 06:18 marvellosity wrote: Keirathi, can you stop catching up and provide your views on a person or two? Certainly. strongandbig+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote:Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET.
Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] +The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that.
NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you.+ Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He comes in by leaving himself an excuse for his inactivity that he can fall back on later, then proceeds to lay out basically an entire case based on pure speculation. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 20:46 strongandbig wrote: Plus he even referred to the fact that he does this as town and I find him scummy for it in the same post where he did it.
So why are you letting him have a free pass for doing it this time? Together, I feel this is a decent case for him being scum but his recent reply to gonzaw's post gives him so townie cred back in my eye. I'm still keeping an eye on him. DropBearI'm mainly suspicious here of his vote for Vivax. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 02:58 DropBear wrote:On July 13 2012 02:20 talismania wrote:On July 13 2012 02:00 DropBear wrote: ##Vote Vivax the hell? any reasons beyond what marv said? I called him out as being suss last page, do you read boy? When his previous calling out of Vivax was simply asking questions + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote:Vivax I am very confused as the reasoning behind your voting so far. Why did you choose strongandbig initially? Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 18:30 Vivax wrote: @ NSH
It's cause of a habit. I just tend to expect links in underlined words <_<.
Back to the topic:
##unvote strongandbig Very informative post about marv there.
Wanted to vote Milton next but he posted. He tries to make himself pretty transparent by posting his games. It's a good sign, but nothing decisive.
Speaking of meta, sciberbia doesn't look good based on that.I was with him in two games and I feel like he's being different in this one. s0lstice already pointed out the missing fast posts we're used to see from scib at the start of the game.
That alone is forgivable given the posted reasons. But the overall gut feeling is still bad cause of the overall style. What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? What are the differences in sciberbia you talk about? . He never explicitly said he suspected him of being scum, and tali called him out on this and he never responded. As an aside, its pretty frustrating that so many arguments in this game are based on meta. As someone new to TL, I feel like I am disadvantaged when you all have so much extra information on each other. Both of these reads are easy criticisms of players that have already been criticized. Keirathi said strongandbig left himself "an excuse for inactivity that he could later fall back on". This seems like another stretch. strongandbig just said he was watching a movie. That's not a great excuse for inactivity and even so only buys him a couple hours. I highly doubt that a scum strongandbig would be scheming about how to get out of posting for 2-3 hours. Keirathi also criticizes strongandbig's post on marv and balance, but again this had already been covered by other people. His suspicion of dropbear was based off the vote on vivax. This is yet another easy point to accuse somebody on (a random vote) and again had already been covered in the thread. In conclusion, Keirathi's scumhunting is generally unoriginal, and unimpressive. A couple of his points feel like a stretch to me. This would be consistent with scum because scum knows that everyone else is town and has to try extra hard to contrive reasons why players are supsicious. Overall, I would rate Keirathi as somewhat suspiciousI've got to go now, but I'll be back in a 2 hours and I'll look at the cases on other players at that time.
Are you back yet? More than 2 hours have passed.
On July 13 2012 08:41 Miltonkram wrote: I've been refreshing myself on the games I've played with austinmcc. He's definitely not the most concise poster in the world. I feel like a lot of the case against him is based on the fact that he uses a lot of words to convey his ideas which is something I feel he would do as scum or town. He's a null read for me. That leaves me with talismania as my top scumread.
##Vote: talismania
I'm off to work. I should be back in a few hours.
What about Dropbear, S&B and Risen?
Hmm, I find this fixation of yours with talismania weird. I think I agree with what Vivax said, I don't think your accusation of him is strong enough to ignore all the other accusations going around (on S&B, austin, Keirath, Risen, Dropbear, etc).
Hell I don't know why so many people are ignoring everything I said about Risen/Dropbear/S&B/austin.
To everyone: If you had to lynch one of Risen/Dropbear/Austin/S&B/Keriath who would it be?
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Hmm, I'm thinking about switching my vote to either Dropbear or Keirath.
Dropbear tried to act all "tough" and shit but I get the impression he only tried to spout as many stuff as he could about plans/etc and trying to create some chaos by accusing people or discrediting plans/accusations.
His vote on Vivax is a joke (some people already went over this), and he hasn't done anything that makes me think he actually cares about town discussion, his posts just seem to appear like he's there doing something since he's so aggressive about it, but nothing else.
I get the feeling Keirath is more likely scum. Like Matt said his reads seemed "forced", in the way that they weren't much reads at all. At least S&B's read, where Kei calls him suspicious but townie at the same time (and calls him suspicious for some bad reasons I think). He seems fixated on "meta" somehow, thinking all of us are using "meta" to catch scum (we are not). His defense of Milkton seemed out of place as well (like it came out of nowhere and he defended him just because of "meta" again, hell I don't even know why he's defending him).
Like said before his posts are too verbose, but trying to blend in IMO. He also spends quite time just defending himself which I don't particularly like (he could have been pushing for other reads at that time).
Let's go with this, but I'd be happy with a switch on Dropbear to be honest (hmm, I think S&B could be scum as well, but I'll wait till he comes back)
##Unvote: austinmcc ##Vote: Keirath
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On July 13 2012 12:07 sciberbia wrote: @gonzaw Go reread everything austin wrote on Risen. I think you are overly suspicious as a result of misreading austin's posts. Marv and austin pointed this out, but your vote is still on austin. Do you still think he is the best lynch?
My bad, I just noticed it. The thing is that it's like he thought Risen was town even in that 1st post of his, but maybe it's his own weird way of being suspicious
Hmm, okay, I think I'll let austin slide, it does seem he posts like this when he's town, and him being a noob could explain him being all over talismania for something irrelevant.
Sciberbia, I'd like it if you didn't spoiler everything you post, it makes it VERY easy to miss when filtering, and makes it kind of hard to find anything specific you wrote.
@talismania: Could you read my post about Risen/Dropbear/S&B/Keirath and post your thoughts? If someone posts again about your "plan" just ignore it, please don't clutter the thread up more by it.
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On July 13 2012 20:58 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 04:47 gonzaw wrote:
I don't see a "relatively noob" scum posting like this as soon as the game starts. He "jokingly" accused 3 people by that point, and seemed cheerful about it. That's not how noob scum play (why would they try to "joke" accuse people if it puts them more in the spotlight as SOON as the game starts?), hell they even rarely post at the very beginning of the game at all, and they never appear cheerful or anything. Why? Because they are scum that's why, they have to check their scum QT, check their buddies, talk to them, think how they are going to proceed, etc. Someone more experienced could pull this off, but I even doubt that.
That's what made me think Radfield wasn't scum on iGrok's game and I was right, basically no scum jumps right into the action at the very start of the game and start joking around and posting without hesitating at all.
No, you were wrong. Radfield was scum - SK - in that game, a game where you repeatedly and incorrectly called him townie. Why are you using one of your biggest fail-reads (by comparison, I had Radfield as scum and voted for him as SK, correctly, in igrok's poll) as a way of justifying your townreads here??
No I was right, he wasn't scum, he was SK. There's a difference (at least I think there is one).
On July 13 2012 22:01 marvellosity wrote:In other news, I'm for some unknown reason still quite annoyed at gonzaw. "Scum don't act lighthearted n shit at the start of games" has been his central premise. Well, while going back through a previous game... Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 18:13 Miltonkram wrote:On June 12 2012 09:04 suki wrote: Oh yay s0lstice and sciberbia :D
i hope we're on the same team this time around T__T I know what you mean. It's great being on their team, fucking terrifying when they're working against you Good to see so many familiar faces! Can't wait for this to get started so I can feed my Mafia addictio... uh... I mean... enjoy a wonderfully sporting event with you gents! Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 10:35 Miltonkram wrote:Hey all, glad to see we've got a bit of activity already. In NMM XV we actually had a decent discussion about no-lynches (involving me making a fool of myself) and how they can actually be beneficial in certain setups. That being said, we don't know for certain if we'll have any modkills so we should leave no-lynches off the table until we hit the unlikely scenario that a no-lynch is beneficial for the town. Town, the best way to contribute is just to get posting. Let everyone know what your thoughts are. Did someone post something suspicious? Let us know about it. Do you think the town is making a bad move? Let us know about it. If a townie lurks he/she is letting down his/her entire team. So don't do it, K? I'm sooooooooper serious. Like sooooper, soooooooooooper serious.Hey sciberbia, remember this ##Vote: sciberbia...heh heh heh Miltonkram scum. Friendly, jokey, with a non-explained vote at the start of a game. Such a shit heuristic.
Wtf are you kidding me? That 1st quote was done in Pre-Game
And no that 2nd quote is not what I mean at all. Being "playful" in one post only (or trying to appear one) is not the heuristic I'm using at all. I'm talking about the very start of the game and being active and playful there, not coming to the thread later and trying to cram everything into 1 post before disappearing (what Milton did in that game).
Hmm, I'll give you that about joke voting at the start though. Talking about it, I'm not that sure of my town read on Vivax now, but like I said before I'm not happy lynching him on D1.
Hmm, okay, this seems a little convoluted right now. There seems to be a subtle Milton vs talismania battle right now (as in, people find either one of them scummy or the other one), but they are not getting too many votes (other than talismania).
I still don't see what makes talismania that scummy and worthy of a lynch, and after rereading I keep getting the feeling Milkton is trying to ride through this day easily by accusing talis and solstice later.
I still think Keirathi is likely scum (although him being a noob doesn't make me that comfortable about it).
I'm still not comfortable at all with S&B and Dropbear, Dropbear specifically.
I'd support a lynch on Keirath/Dropbear/Milkton today, I think they are the ones most likely scum for me now
@Mattchew: Where are you dude? Will you keep your vote on sciberbia?
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On July 13 2012 22:30 marvellosity wrote: scum = not town, it includes SK
*sigh* I obviously mean "mafia", not just "an anti-town faction"
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On July 13 2012 22:33 marvellosity wrote:mafia means mafia, scum means anti-town, but ok gonzaw. I could squabble with you for hours
Okay, Vivax may be the SK, happy now? >_> (actually, is there a SK this game?)
On July 13 2012 22:36 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw: what do you make of this? Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:21 s0Lstice wrote:
Miltonkram: I found to my sorrow that making a case on a town Talis is an easy thing to do. This also means that he is an attractive target for scum to harp on. I found Milton's reasoning strange. His filter is small, but there are several references to the use of meta. He uses meta to inform his reads on Keirathi, Sciberbia, and austin...but not his top scum read? I know for certain that the information he would find would be useful to him here. His case reads as phony, and I think there is a good chance he rolled scum again.
Risen: I've spent a ton of time in his past games. The two biggest things he did when he was scum that he didn't do when he was town were: stressing repeatedly that it's too early to have reads, and being forthcoming/defending his 'town reads.' So far this game he has hit both of those marks. He defended Mattchew, and concluded that Dropbear being town is likely. He has said twice that it's too early to post reads.
I feel better about lynching Miltonkram today, and as such:
##vote: Miltonkram
This game his [austin's] effort matches, and I feel he has made some good points on Risen. Him matching his town meta is only one piece of my view on him, and it's largely unnecessary. His actions thus far seem pretty pro-town to me. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:33 Keirathi wrote:On July 13 2012 10:58 s0Lstice wrote: what do you think of Miltonkram, Marv? As an aside: your case against Risen feels stronger than your case against Milton anyways. I'm kind of suprised you voted the way you did. Mentioned elsewhere in my filter, but that was my gut reaction to s0lstice's post as well. What do you think?
Yeah I noticed it.
I'd like him to explain himself though (I don't know if he did), since I don't think it's something "scummy" in itself but rather could be more of a misunderstanding. I didn't really pay much attention to it since the rest of his posts make me think he's town (I've already said why I think).
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On July 13 2012 22:51 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 22:47 gonzaw wrote:On July 13 2012 22:33 marvellosity wrote:mafia means mafia, scum means anti-town, but ok gonzaw. I could squabble with you for hours Okay, Vivax may be the SK, happy now? >_> (actually, is there a SK this game?) On July 13 2012 22:36 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw: what do you make of this? On July 13 2012 10:21 s0Lstice wrote:
Miltonkram: I found to my sorrow that making a case on a town Talis is an easy thing to do. This also means that he is an attractive target for scum to harp on. I found Milton's reasoning strange. His filter is small, but there are several references to the use of meta. He uses meta to inform his reads on Keirathi, Sciberbia, and austin...but not his top scum read? I know for certain that the information he would find would be useful to him here. His case reads as phony, and I think there is a good chance he rolled scum again.
Risen: I've spent a ton of time in his past games. The two biggest things he did when he was scum that he didn't do when he was town were: stressing repeatedly that it's too early to have reads, and being forthcoming/defending his 'town reads.' So far this game he has hit both of those marks. He defended Mattchew, and concluded that Dropbear being town is likely. He has said twice that it's too early to post reads.
I feel better about lynching Miltonkram today, and as such:
##vote: Miltonkram
This game his [austin's] effort matches, and I feel he has made some good points on Risen. Him matching his town meta is only one piece of my view on him, and it's largely unnecessary. His actions thus far seem pretty pro-town to me. On July 13 2012 11:33 Keirathi wrote:On July 13 2012 10:58 s0Lstice wrote: what do you think of Miltonkram, Marv? As an aside: your case against Risen feels stronger than your case against Milton anyways. I'm kind of suprised you voted the way you did. Mentioned elsewhere in my filter, but that was my gut reaction to s0lstice's post as well. What do you think? Yeah I noticed it. I'd like him to explain himself though (I don't know if he did), since I don't think it's something "scummy" in itself but rather could be more of a misunderstanding. I didn't really pay much attention to it since the rest of his posts make me think he's town (I've already said why I think). "How many scum are there? Four?" "There are PMs this game right guys? PM me!" "is there an SK this game?" ... making me think you're scum here man
To be honest, when I'm scum I'm pretty paranoid about asking those kind of questions and shit, since I always get the feeling people might accuse me exactly of that.
I think it tells on Liar Game, each time there was no night kill my "Oh my! There is no night kill!" posts seemed forced and made me extremely paranoid >_>
Anyways S&B, know that I'm not that happy with your play this day, and I think you could easily be scum. But *sigh* there are things that make me think you could post as town and don't make me confident too much in your lynch.
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Yeah I read that, but since he changed the setup a little bit I don't know how much the chances of there being a SK are (or if there is one 100% or something).
Meh I guessed I derped with that question.
Hmm, now that I think about it the more flips there are we can determine how many scum there are. Like, each time a cop flips we add a "C" (or "CC", etc), if a VT flips we add "T", etc. In the end we can know (based on all the Ts,Cs, Bs and shit that flipped or are claimed) exactly how many scum/SKs are and how many of them are.
I'll try to keep tabs personally.
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On July 13 2012 23:05 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 23:00 gonzaw wrote: the more flips there are we can determine how many scum there are
......... man seriously. what are you doing. and I know what you were trying to say ("we can reverse engineer wbg's setup randomizer or something and know how many scum there are") but since we don't know the setup randomizer that's also totally pointless.
WBG said this setup follows C9++ but the only thing that changed was the chance of the roles and he added a Framer (and changed Medics->JK and IC->Miller). There's no need to shit things up I'll just do it on my own (other people could do it on their own) and if I find something interesting I'll state it (for instance I checked the C9++ wiki and apparently there is a SK only when there is an odd amount of VTs, I guess it may be similar here). It may help in a LYLO massclaim for instance.
Also, I think WBG said he was posting his "determiner" once its balanced. WBG: WIll you post the "randomizer" you used to determine the setup?
Also apparently no Miller nor Masons claimed, so we don't have any of those Therefore I'll consider any Miller or Mason claim from now on as confirmed scum (well...it doesn't seem likely scum would fake-claim Mason together but whatever). So Cops....check away, any Red check you get will be legit (no Miller claimed and you are guaranteed to be sane).
S&B, what do you think of Dropbear and Risen?
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For fucks sake could you stop being so dramatic? I'm the only one hinting at using it to gain info not "people". Also I said I won't discuss it anymore and just keep it private until something interesting comes up, nothing else
*sigh* I hate it when people blow things out of proportion just to "appear pro-town"
Also don't answer in WBG's behalf. He explicitly said he'd release the "determiner" at some point (after the tweeks and shit), I was just wondering if he'd release it now (so the whole thing I've been talking about would be more useful this game)
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Ehmm...is it me or does the day END IN FREAKING 5 HOURS!!!!??
Seriously people, these votes are a mess, there are 6 people with votes on them and the guy with most votes has 3 (marv will you keep your vote on solstice?).
So please people consolidate the votes unless you want: 1)A NL 2)A rushed last-minute wagon on someone (to prevent NL) that will most likely end up being town.
I already said I think Keirath is scum and should be today's lynch. But I wouldn't mind a Dropbear lynch either (because of reasons stated earlier).
In mind with S&B's recent posting I wouldn't mind his lynch either, I don't like how he sporadically comes into the thread to shit things up and doesn't seem to care about being part of any discussion.
At least I want some freaking discussion about the lynch.
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On July 14 2012 01:44 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 01:42 marvellosity wrote:On July 14 2012 01:32 talismania wrote:
gonzaw: Aside from his "lol how does the setup work?" posts everything he's done screams townie to me. Like the amount of effort he's put in just seems excessive. Even I imagine myself with 100% free time I can't see myself doing that much work as scum.
I'll just leave this scum filter here. Bear in mind this was a PM game, so that was merely half his effort. I'm not saying he's scum because of it, but please do not assume he is town through effort, that's totally null alignment-wise for gonzaw. holy shit haha. How much free time do you have gonzaw??
At that point not that much actually (I was still going to uni). Although I did get kind of "obssessed" so I did use like 80% of my free time in that mafia game >_>
Right now I don't have uni anymore so I have more free time.
On July 14 2012 01:53 sciberbia wrote: @gonzaw If you've already taken the time to assemble the votecount, could you post it?
Also, I made my stances clear last night and they haven't changed. I'd be happy lynching Keirathi or Vivax. I could tolerate a lynch on dropbear/s0Lstice/Miltonkram/Risen, but I really think that Keirathi and Vivax are more suspicious.
I'm at work till 6PM and I'm following the thread. I'm currently voting Keirathi but I'd be happy to switch to Vivax if enough people share my views on him. Unless I see any really scummy posts or convincing cases, I will vote for someone other than Keirathi/Vivax if and only if it proves necessary to prevent a NL.
Mattchew: sciberbia Risen: Vivax s0lstice: Milkton marvellosity: solstice Vivax: Milkton Austinmcc: talismania dropbear: Vivax talismania: Dropbear sciberbia: Keirathi keirathi: -- miltonkram: talismania strongandbig: Keirathi gonzaw: Keirathi
cba to do the other way hosts do it in this forum (just copy-pasted my notes)
On July 14 2012 01:57 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 01:33 gonzaw wrote: Ehmm...is it me or does the day END IN FREAKING 5 HOURS!!!!??
Seriously people, these votes are a mess, there are 6 people with votes on them and the guy with most votes has 3 (marv will you keep your vote on solstice?).
So please people consolidate the votes unless you want: 1)A NL 2)A rushed last-minute wagon on someone (to prevent NL) that will most likely end up being town.
I already said I think Keirath is scum and should be today's lynch. But I wouldn't mind a Dropbear lynch either (because of reasons stated earlier).
In mind with S&B's recent posting I wouldn't mind his lynch either, I don't like how he sporadically comes into the thread to shit things up and doesn't seem to care about being part of any discussion.
At least I want some freaking discussion about the lynch. Is anyone else voting dropbear? yet you want consolidation?
If people change their votes to Dropbear, then yes. If for instance you+marv+someone else change their vote to Dropbear there's consolidation. "Consolidation" doesn't mean voting for the guys with the most votes just so "some guy has the most votes", it's not having every single vote dispersed throughout lots of people. If all votes consolidate into a new guy then I don't see the contradiction.
Matt, what are you planning to do? Your vote is still on sciberbia and you haven't posted anything interesting in a while.
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Well shit >_> (wbg already posted the vote count)
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^^Yeah but that's not how I keep notes. I just keep a list of everybody, and put who they voted next to them. If someone votes someone, or unvotes, or changes his vote I just change that field, I don't have to change THE WHOLE LIST of players ordered by the number of votes they have.
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I don't like it at all that Risen hasn't shown up, he even promised to show up here:
On July 13 2012 08:42 Risen wrote: Hey so I'm driving to vegas atm and then working out once I'm there. Sorry I dropped off the map. My vote won't be staying where it is. Reading while driving is stupid but from what I've scanned austin looks sketchy as shit with his town read on me. I'll be more thorough tonight when I'm able to sot down and read. Afaik we have a good day and a half left right? Or is it just a day
...but damn, there's something that doesn't make me comfortable with lynching him I don't really know how to explain it, but I actually think his "I don't like making reads right now" post may work in his favour (mostly because of the way he said it, like I don't think he'd say that if he was scum the way he did it at that point in time).
But it's damn hard to figure out if he's town or scum (for now I kind of feel about him what I felt about Greymist in the MTG game, he could go either way, did "scummy" things but some tiny teeny things give me a gut town tell). I wouldn't oppose his lynch as a talis/Vivax/solstice lynch, but I'm not that comfortable with it, or rather I don't really feel confident in it at this point (although its D1 so maybe it's the best thing to do anyways).
However I don't like that above post at all, but it's possible he's just late or something.
I agree with marv that Keirath has not been involved in anything since a long time. I did notice some "townie" stuff he might have done (calling Dropbear out for calling him town, coming out of nowhere to defend Milton); but I get a more "noob scum" feel from the rest of his post (differently than other players like solstice for instance, where I get a "noob town" feel from their post but may have done some little "scummy" stuff), so I don't really take those into account.
Hmm, I think I'll keep my vote on Keirath for now, him doing nothing since posting those reads like a day ago doesn't convince me to unvote him.
@VIvax:
I'll post more about Keirathi and Dropbear soon, they offer quite interesting connections. Gonna try to interprete Dropbears mistake and draw conclusions.
Since lynch time is closing in pretty fast I'd like those opinions soon, also on Risen as well.
On July 14 2012 02:43 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 17:01 DropBear wrote:On July 13 2012 09:07 Vivax wrote:I'm not comfortable with a tali lynch. Comparing filters I found Miltonkrams filter to be fairly empty and he targetted the easy target. He posted 1. A list of his games to make himself available for a metacheck. 2. He comments on Talis plan being bad, and that being reason enough to be scummy. My impression of talis plan gone bad so far: It's a magnet for players with no/bad cases to have a reason to post something accusing. The downside is that it might have triggered policy discussion and a lot of chaos, while promising a lot of clarity by forcing players to take a hard stance, so talis plan was risky from a town perspective, and I'd leave it at that. He said it worked in bastard mafia, let's leave it at that: It won't be used here. 3. On July 13 2012 06:35 Miltonkram wrote: I don't find the fact that he came up with the plan scummy, I find the amount of time he's spent defending himself from the fallout of his plan scummy. I think he's spent 3 or 4 posts just defending himself.
Defending oneself isn't scummy. If it's really the only thing you do, then yes, but Milton already knows that it's not the only thing tali is doing: On July 13 2012 06:48 Miltonkram wrote: EBWOP: I didn't notice that talismania was actually putting a fair amount of pressure on austinmcc. I still find the amount of time he's spent talking about his proposal scummy, but he has put a small amount of pressure on players. still seems to firmly believe in a scum tali. He doesn't have any other reads. He comments on Keirathi and sciberbia being unreadable to him. I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense. I'll defend Milton for you He started late so hasn't posted as much. We knew that was happening before the games started. Your point 1 directly helps people get a read on him. This is extremely positive town play. In your point 2, you say how the plan allows pointless posting and how that doesn't help town, but then turn around and lambast Milton for pointing this out. Contradiction much? There is no real pressure from talismania on austin at all. Milton is right, talismania IS only defending the plan and not committing to accusations. Three reads is enough for day 1, no? Posting your read on every single person is just clutter. You should be less obvious in defending your buddy. SCUM TEAM
Vivax talismania gonzaw, scum don't usually do this. so i don't want to vote dropbear.
Scum don't usually defend other guys and accuse people....? Could you be a little bit more specific? What about the rest of his posts?
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On July 14 2012 03:14 Vivax wrote:Thanks for reminding me, gonzaw. I'll start with an exquisite collection of quotes from various filters: Starting with My top scumread, Risen+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:34 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 10:00 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote: Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early. Thank you captain obvious. Instead of posting tautologies, do you have an opinion on said subject? (i.e do you think I'm extremely eager townie or do you think I'm scum looking for easy targets to push?) In hindsight this came out more aggressive than I meant it :/ It's cool. It's nothing compared to what I handled from igrok my last game. Anywho, I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. Written in 8th page of the game, when there was a fair bit of discussion already going on. He just tried to not attack gonzaw after trying to discredit gonz's previous post, enemies are bad for scum players. + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:14 sciberbia wrote: @keirathi, @Dropbear, @Risen Do you guys have any suspicions yet? Maybe you could comment on my post about risen/marv or about gonzaw's accusations of risen/strongandbig/Mattchew? This thread is too quiet for my liking -- please share some of your thoughts. I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. More apologies for not doing anything in the 9th page of the game. + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. He wrote this about....Drooopbear.When? After writing this: + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. We have a scumslip, gentlemen. It's obviously normal that you first list the scum options for a player when your actual opinion of him is that he's town. This is an argument-intention inconsistency I spoke about before. It wouldn't happen to a townie intending to conclude with his belief that the player is actually town. He actually noticed it too late, adding the town option in the following post. ##Unvote ##Vote Risen
What about Dropbear and Keirathi?
On July 14 2012 03:49 sciberbia wrote: I find the cases against Risen unconvincing. Sure he hasn't posted all that much, but is that really alignment indicative? I see it as much more of a busytell than a scumtell.
Also, does anybody else not like how Vivax went from 0 to 60 on Risen just as the bandwaggon on Risen was gathering steam? I'm really not sure if I find Vivax or Keirathi more suspicious right now.
This raised some alarms to me as well. I'm not that sure about Vivax being town (even though I said he wasn't likely scum because of him being too cheerful early on :/). I'm not that sure about talis either since I'd expect him to be more invested in discussions instead of accusing Dropbear and disappearing.
I still think Keirathi is scummy...although some stuff (like that last post where he urges Dropbear to reconsider Vivax being scum) made me doubt that. Well, I'm going away and I'll be back 1 hour before the deadline, hopefully I can make up my mind by then.
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Okay I'm back
Fuck I don't know if I have the time to reread all these last few pages.
Very quickly: Is the voting close or not? Is NL already set (as I imagined it would) or is there a candidate for lynch? Is my vote needed right now? Because if so I'll skim these pages very quickly instead of reading them thoroughly
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On July 14 2012 06:37 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:36 gonzaw wrote: Okay I'm back
Fuck I don't know if I have the time to reread all these last few pages.
Very quickly: Is the voting close or not? Is NL already set (as I imagined it would) or is there a candidate for lynch? Is my vote needed right now? Because if so I'll skim these pages very quickly instead of reading them thoroughly Yes it is. Go read my case on Vivax. Then go read the case on DropBear. Choose who you find scummier and vote. Here is votecount as it stands. Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:34 Risen wrote:On July 14 2012 06:27 Risen wrote: DropBear(3) talismania Miltonkram Keirathi
Vivax(3) Risen sciberbia DropBear
keirathi(2) strongandbig gonzaw
s0Lstice(2) strongandbig austinmcc
Risen(2) Vivax s0Lstice
austinmcc(1) marvellosity
sciberbia(1) Mattchew
From high votes to low.
I thought this was majority lynch...?
Or is it plurality lynch?
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Can keirathi still be lynched?
Also wtf marv and mattchew are still voting solstice/sciberbia? Or is that vote count outdated?
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On July 14 2012 06:39 marvellosity wrote: There's 20 minutes to deadline and you make a fucking post asking taht when you can just read the OP? Get a grip
It's majority
It stoke me some doubt since Risen was all "vote Vivax/Dropbear" which made me think it may have been a plurality lynch.
If it's majority then sorry to tell you but we'll NL if things keep up like this.
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On July 14 2012 06:41 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:40 gonzaw wrote: Can keirathi still be lynched?
Also wtf marv and mattchew are still voting solstice/sciberbia? Or is that vote count outdated? Marv is on austin. Look at my posted vote count!
Yeah sorry I was in a hurry and saw "solstice(2)" and thought marv was one of them.
Shit.
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On July 14 2012 06:44 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:42 gonzaw wrote:On July 14 2012 06:39 marvellosity wrote: There's 20 minutes to deadline and you make a fucking post asking taht when you can just read the OP? Get a grip
It's majority It stoke me some doubt since Risen was all "vote Vivax/Dropbear" which made me think it may have been a plurality lynch. If it's majority then sorry to tell you but we'll NL if things keep up like this. Yes AND YOU HAVEN'T VOTED What's wrong with you???
What the hell is wrong with you marv? Get off my back and stop nitpicking everything I say. I already voted Keirathi.
Shit I don't have time to read the thread, I just skimmed and saw some posts from Vivax and at least he seemed active (didn't read its content), but Dropbear isn't even here.
Fuck it I hate majority lynches, but here it goes:
##Unvote: Keirathi ##Vote: Dropbear
Hopefully I reread the thread quickly before the lynch but I doubt it.
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This is fucking balls, I don't want a NL at all costs, but I doubt Dropbear will get more votes
I kind of want to lynch S&B to be honest, I've skimmed these last few pages and he just wasn't active in conversations at all even when active and just posted
ARg fucking hell
On July 14 2012 06:50 Risen wrote: Gonzaw comes in with a scummy as shit post trying to save Viv, but it's not looking likely!
Vivax 6, DropBear 5! THIS IS IT FOLKS!
And you get off my fucking back this is not easy, I have to blindly vote one of those 2 without even reading what they posted
Well fuck this shit if Vivax flips town it should be a monument of how shitty this day seems
##Unvote: Dropbear ##Vote: Vivax
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Fuck fuck fuck Let me check a post I saw that sums up my thoughts exactly
On July 14 2012 05:11 marvellosity wrote: oh god I've never been this unsure on day 1 of where to shove my vote (normally at least there's someone easy!). Just read the thread since I left and it's very confusing. Gonna have a dash through the filters and see what I can find.
This, so much this.
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Vivax may very well flip town, but fuck a NL is bad as shit (I don't care if I'm "scummy" because of this it's the truth).
Well, might as well start reading the thread after all.
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There are 2 minutes left, if someone changes their vote to Dropbear I think I'll change it as well. I wish there was more time
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Well fuck this shit whatever
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Mattchew fuck you, your vote is still on sciberbia
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What a shitty day. Only Vivax flipping scum would lighten it up but I doubt it at this point, specially since S&B/Keriathi/etc all voted Vivax without much incentive (at least from what I read, maybe I missed something when I skimmed it)
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On July 14 2012 07:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 07:07 Risen wrote:On July 14 2012 07:05 gonzaw wrote: What a shitty day. Only Vivax flipping scum would lighten it up but I doubt it at this point, specially since S&B/Keriathi/etc all voted Vivax without much incentive (at least from what I read, maybe I missed something when I skimmed it) You think you'll feel bad? I'm probably going to die if Viv flips town to a vig shot.... Oh hello, LIII.
lol. I'll lol if both Dropbear+Vivax are town, and then I'm accused of "doing a Risen" by changing the lynch from Dropbear to Vivax
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Hmm, I'm getting the feeling you are town Risen, you are too invested in the game and really care about the lynch, and you are very active at it and act too "cool" around it. Don't know what Vivax was saying about you being scum, might need to reread.
But to be honest these last few minutes tired me, I'll wait for the flip and rest a little bit before rereading the thread from where I left off.
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Nobody is talking now?
This whole late-D1 stressed the hell out of me, christ.
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I think we should kill S&B tomorrow (or Dropbear/MIlton/Keirath, but right now I get a huge urge to lynch S&B)
Hmm...well I need to reread Risen first
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On July 14 2012 07:24 Risen wrote: Are we allowed to post out-of-thread information in this thread? Like, lets say I see someone posting elsewhere on another forum, but not posting here in thread... can I bring attention to that fact?
We used that to catch your buddy Daniel in LIII so I don't see why not (at least no host got angry at us because of it)
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On July 14 2012 07:27 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 07:26 gonzaw wrote:On July 14 2012 07:24 Risen wrote: Are we allowed to post out-of-thread information in this thread? Like, lets say I see someone posting elsewhere on another forum, but not posting here in thread... can I bring attention to that fact? We used that to catch your buddy Daniel in LIII so I don't see why not (at least no host got angry at us because of it) Daniel was modkilled, no idea what you're talking about O_0
Well...we got suspicious of him because of that >_>
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On July 14 2012 07:28 Risen wrote: EBWOP: Nvm I see what you're saying. However, this is a private forum type thing and I could very well be lying about it. Here goes. Mattchew logged onto skype during all this.
I thought you caught someone posting in another thread
I don't know about Skype and "out of forum" stuff though
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EBWOP:
Can you edit RIsens' post before more people see it?
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EBWOP2:
And mine as well...? >_>
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Also marv, guess it wasn't a shitty heuristic now, was it?
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On July 14 2012 07:48 strongandbig wrote: gonzaw when do you not want to lynch me, srsly.
How about the whole D3 of MTG Mafia?
I don't get why you are so hung up on this, I haven't even "tunneled" you nor even voted for you for christ sake, but every time I talk about you you pull out the "Oh gonzaw is FoSing me of course he is" card. Seriously it makes me think you are doing that on purpose to scare me into not accusing you. It's not funny anymore and I don't know why you'd do that as town when you know I wasn't even trying to get you lynched yesterday
are you going to start reading the thread soon/
i mean like idk, the fact that you keep refusing to read the setup feels to me like this game is your version of not giving a fuck - you still post a million times per second but the posts are just kind of only tangentially related to the thread.
idk, i dont really see you as doing this as scum but could you please at least answer the point? the fact that you did it like four times and never commented on it even when marv and i called you scummy for it, gives me a pretty bad feeling.
You mean the C9++ thingy? Yeah, I didn't the OP before posting that (but that "Is there a Sk?" questions was something from the spur of the moment I added very late).
but the posts are just kind of only tangentially related to the thread.
No they are not.
Anyways yes I'll probably go back and read and tell people why I want you killed (damn I want to kill Mattchew just for not giving a shit either....but well his early posting seemed townie so I'm torn, I guess it's possible he was busy or something, but either way it shouldn't be ignored).
There's another mafia game I'm playing (in another site) so I'll pay attention to it more these few hours (I'm elected mayor and have to lynch someone and shit), so I'll come back and post something (after reading the thread) tomorrow perhaps
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On July 14 2012 08:13 marvellosity wrote: Eh. A no-lynch was worse than the chance that my read on Vivax was wrong.
Why didn't you vote Dropbear? When I voted him he was at 5 or 6 I think.
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Couldn't you say that a no-lynch was worse than the chance that your read on Dropbear was wrong?
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Okay I've been rereading and I noticed something:
On July 14 2012 04:58 Mattchew wrote: and can we get a vote count?
On July 14 2012 04:57 Mattchew wrote: how much time till lynch
WTF
So Mattchew was active when the whole lynch discussion was going on yet he didn't do shit and didn't even bother on unvoting sciberbia?
Wtf?
This is just too much. I had him as townie in early game but I can't believe a town Mattchew would do something like this, unless he was somehow hospitalized right after he made that post or something. Damn, I really thought he was town wtf is going on? :/
@Risen: So you are VERY active this day, very confident, spouting whole scumteams, accusing lots of people for defending your scumread (Vivax) and generally being over-confident about it and shit.
That seems like a Town VE play (when he plays badly though >_> ). But I can't shake that feeling that you are not actually playing like you said you intended to do. You said you weren't going to call people out and you would be nice, but you didn't seem too nice this last day. Your attitude didn't make me think you'd change your behaviour.
Not only that, it seems way too contrasting with your behaviour at the beginning of the game (which was WAY more passive), and that reminds me of LIII where you did something very similar (you were "passive" and shit, but after being called out you started being aggressive and playing to your town meta). You are not that aggressive this time, but there are similarities in your play which make me not go fully with a "Risen is town" feel.
Any explanation for this or something to say?
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But you disrupted the thread way too much (just like a town VE does....except you are not VE which is why I find it weird).
Everytime someone tried to defend Vivax you jumped and accused them. You prevented people from even discussing Vivax being town, and basically prevented any discussion on someone other than Vivax. You forced every post you had about Vivax on everybody's throat, specially that bad PBPA case you made (I skimmed it and it seemed bad, specially when you quoted lots of his posts and didn't say anything basically).
It does seem like you are over-enthusiastic townie instead of scum (because scum rarely do what you did and try to take complete control of D1 and be active as shit), but hey!, after your LIII game I won't take any chances with you, and it's possible you'll do this as scum.
The only way to know for sure is to see how you are going to react after this. So Risen, what do you plan to do now? You spouted lots of "scumteams" like solstica+marv+austin+some other guys without conviction and everything was based around VIvax; so who do you think is scum now? Take your time, we have all this night phase to determine that.
I just don't want to risk you being scum and doing the same thing on other townies and getting them all lynched and trying to WIFOM your way out of being suspected like you did on LIII.
I'll post my thoughts on the other players, but so far I'm getting a little suspicious of talis and austin (austin not so much though), and getting the feeling keriathi is townie. However the talis and keirathi feels are connected to Dropbear mostly. If Dropbear is scum I think its likely both are town, but if Dropbear is town then talis seems suspicious but I can't really tell about keirathi. Keirathi basically defending Vivax and not wanting to vote him and sticking to Dropbear as well seemed townie. Him being around after the lynch and talk about some stuff gave me good vibes as well.
It's not definitive though, but I find other people more suspicious now
I'm not that sure about austin. Some of his posts (like his vote on solstice) seemed pretty scummy to me, but I kind of just took into account what I read from the point I left until now and not the rest (because of what solstice/sciberbia said I started to think he was town) so I'll reread that later to make a better read on austin.
I'll post about talis and S&B in a next post
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I'm getting a little bit suspicious of talis because of his refusal to do anything constructive since he made his case on Dropbear. Him appearing sporadically ever since, posting some irrelevant stuff and one-liners don't make me feel any good. Not only that he seemed to purposefully ignore the Vivax issue at all when he was active.
Basically, he "seeemed" pro town before this post:
On July 14 2012 04:39 talismania wrote: ok I'm back from experiments what's going on here
Riven v Vivax and Milton and austin changed their minds is all I see skimming through.
But after that his play crumbled.
He spent a little time responding to Dropbear (more like responding to Dropbear's criticism though).
On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote: @risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro.
Completely removal from the current town discussion and just tries to stay on his little own world of him FoSing Dropbear and that's it. That seemed suspicious
After that he just seems to be "there"; not doing anything basically
On July 14 2012 06:41 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:39 gonzaw wrote:On July 14 2012 06:37 Risen wrote:On July 14 2012 06:36 gonzaw wrote: Okay I'm back
Fuck I don't know if I have the time to reread all these last few pages.
Very quickly: Is the voting close or not? Is NL already set (as I imagined it would) or is there a candidate for lynch? Is my vote needed right now? Because if so I'll skim these pages very quickly instead of reading them thoroughly Yes it is. Go read my case on Vivax. Then go read the case on DropBear. Choose who you find scummier and vote. Here is votecount as it stands. On July 14 2012 06:34 Risen wrote:On July 14 2012 06:27 Risen wrote: DropBear(3) talismania Miltonkram Keirathi
Vivax(3) Risen sciberbia DropBear
keirathi(2) strongandbig gonzaw
s0Lstice(2) strongandbig austinmcc
Risen(2) Vivax s0Lstice
austinmcc(1) marvellosity
sciberbia(1) Mattchew
From high votes to low. I thought this was majority lynch...? Or is it plurality lynch? Lol are you trying to see how much of this stuff you can get away with or something?
This post raised some flags because how out of context it was (regarding talis' previous posts), and how sudden and weird.
Marv was being a pain in the ass to me (admit it >_> ) basically since the game started so him getting pissed about it made sense. But talis never made any comment about me "going on about the setup" and shit, so what the hell does he mean when he says that? There's no context (like with marv) where I know how talis thinks about me. Wtf is "how much of this stuff you can get away with"? What stuff? This seemed very out of place.
Again, there was a Vivax vs Dropbear discussion going on and him posting this instead of trying to contribute to that discussion, he comes out of nowhere with an out of place post that doesn't do shit (it seriously reminds me of what S&B is doing this game, but I'll get to that later).
After that it's just a bunch of pointless one-liners about not wanting to switch and shit. Like...they don't convince me at all; we are minutes before the lynch and he only has time to post some useless oneliners. What about the informative posts he made at the beginning of the game? Where the hell are those?
This change in his play make me suspicious of him. ...however if Dropbear is scum it kinds of makes me doubt this suspicion as well (since that seemed a way too risky bus, since Dropbear COULD have been lynched).
....hmm, I'm starting to think that Dropbear might have been town after all and scum didn't really care about this lynch since it was between 2 townies. But I'll leave that out in the air and not dwell too much on that, Dropbear doesn't seem too townie to me and could easily be scum, but trying to make sense of this situation is kind of hard.
Oh well shit I'll make a post about S&B next (this took a while)
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About S&B:
I want to lynch this guy tomorrow.
I've already posted some shit about his earlier posts (fluff and stuff)
I don't like how he's accusing me, discrediting me and flinging shit at me every time he can. The worst thing is that it has only to do with setup talk. That's the only thing he's posting about me when he's accusing me, here:
On July 13 2012 22:51 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 22:47 gonzaw wrote:On July 13 2012 22:33 marvellosity wrote:mafia means mafia, scum means anti-town, but ok gonzaw. I could squabble with you for hours Okay, Vivax may be the SK, happy now? >_> (actually, is there a SK this game?) On July 13 2012 22:36 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw: what do you make of this? On July 13 2012 10:21 s0Lstice wrote:
Miltonkram: I found to my sorrow that making a case on a town Talis is an easy thing to do. This also means that he is an attractive target for scum to harp on. I found Milton's reasoning strange. His filter is small, but there are several references to the use of meta. He uses meta to inform his reads on Keirathi, Sciberbia, and austin...but not his top scum read? I know for certain that the information he would find would be useful to him here. His case reads as phony, and I think there is a good chance he rolled scum again.
Risen: I've spent a ton of time in his past games. The two biggest things he did when he was scum that he didn't do when he was town were: stressing repeatedly that it's too early to have reads, and being forthcoming/defending his 'town reads.' So far this game he has hit both of those marks. He defended Mattchew, and concluded that Dropbear being town is likely. He has said twice that it's too early to post reads.
I feel better about lynching Miltonkram today, and as such:
##vote: Miltonkram
This game his [austin's] effort matches, and I feel he has made some good points on Risen. Him matching his town meta is only one piece of my view on him, and it's largely unnecessary. His actions thus far seem pretty pro-town to me. On July 13 2012 11:33 Keirathi wrote:On July 13 2012 10:58 s0Lstice wrote: what do you think of Miltonkram, Marv? As an aside: your case against Risen feels stronger than your case against Milton anyways. I'm kind of suprised you voted the way you did. Mentioned elsewhere in my filter, but that was my gut reaction to s0lstice's post as well. What do you think? Yeah I noticed it. I'd like him to explain himself though (I don't know if he did), since I don't think it's something "scummy" in itself but rather could be more of a misunderstanding. I didn't really pay much attention to it since the rest of his posts make me think he's town (I've already said why I think). "How many scum are there? Four?" "There are PMs this game right guys? PM me!" "is there an SK this game?" ... making me think you're scum here man
On July 13 2012 23:05 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 23:00 gonzaw wrote: the more flips there are we can determine how many scum there are
......... man seriously. what are you doing. and I know what you were trying to say ("we can reverse engineer wbg's setup randomizer or something and know how many scum there are") but since we don't know the setup randomizer that's also totally pointless.
On July 14 2012 00:55 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 00:31 gonzaw wrote:On July 13 2012 23:05 strongandbig wrote:On July 13 2012 23:00 gonzaw wrote: the more flips there are we can determine how many scum there are
......... man seriously. what are you doing. and I know what you were trying to say ("we can reverse engineer wbg's setup randomizer or something and know how many scum there are") but since we don't know the setup randomizer that's also totally pointless. WBG said this setup follows C9++ but the only thing that changed was the chance of the roles and he added a Framer (and changed Medics->JK and IC->Miller). There's no need to shit things up I'll just do it on my own (other people could do it on their own) and if I find something interesting I'll state it (for instance I checked the C9++ wiki and apparently there is a SK only when there is an odd amount of VTs, I guess it may be similar here). It may help in a LYLO massclaim for instance. Also, I think WBG said he was posting his "determiner" once its balanced. WBG: WIll you post the "randomizer" you used to determine the setup?
Also apparently no Miller nor Masons claimed, so we don't have any of those Therefore I'll consider any Miller or Mason claim from now on as confirmed scum (well...it doesn't seem likely scum would fake-claim Mason together but whatever). So Cops....check away, any Red check you get will be legit (no Miller claimed and you are guaranteed to be sane).
S&B, what do you think of Dropbear and Risen? Dude just stop - WBG will not post the randomizer, he's said, so as to preserve its integrity. There is a 50% chance of there being an SK, it doesn't matter how many VTs there are. PEOPLE, WILL YOU PLEASE STOP TRYING TO GAIN INFORMATION FROM THE MAFIASCUM C9++ SETUP. THIS SETUP IS DIFFERENT AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAS BEEN CHANGED. WE CANNOT GAIN ANY USEFUL INFORMATION FROM THE MAFIASCUM C9++ SETUP!As for your question I'm at work still so no deep thoughts yet - I'm inclined to give Risen the benefit of the doubt for a few days at least, since he has a good motivation to try to change his town play. Nothing on dropbear right now I'll try and reread his filter later.
He only finds me suspicious because of the setup talk; and it's bullshit. Not only that but I already said he was way too overdramatic and "trying to be pro-town" with that last post of his.
On July 14 2012 06:52 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:49 gonzaw wrote:On July 14 2012 06:44 marvellosity wrote:On July 14 2012 06:42 gonzaw wrote:On July 14 2012 06:39 marvellosity wrote: There's 20 minutes to deadline and you make a fucking post asking taht when you can just read the OP? Get a grip
It's majority It stoke me some doubt since Risen was all "vote Vivax/Dropbear" which made me think it may have been a plurality lynch. If it's majority then sorry to tell you but we'll NL if things keep up like this. Yes AND YOU HAVEN'T VOTED What's wrong with you??? What the hell is wrong with you marv? Get off my back and stop nitpicking everything I say. I already voted Keirathi. Shit I don't have time to read the thread, I just skimmed and saw some posts from Vivax and at least he seemed active (didn't read its content), but Dropbear isn't even here. Fuck it I hate majority lynches, but here it goes: ##Unvote: Keirathi ##Vote: DropbearHopefully I reread the thread quickly before the lynch but I doubt it. of course he's not here he's in australia it's like four am like there are decent reasons to vote for him but that's not one of them i want everyone to seriously consider gonzaw for lynch tomorrow.
Again I don't like these accusations he has of me (he has mentioned 0 substance on why I'm scum).
What's more, I don't like this "grudge" he has about me based on my play on MTG mafia (which he still refuses to explain). That "grudge" seems fake as hell. Every time I accuse him he acts all frustrated and posts "gonzaw you are always accusing me you are posting like a toilet, etc" I already posted before that this seems fake, since there is NO indication for him to be that frustrated at me (seriously, check my filter and find any reason why he would be that frustrated, or why he would be this frustrated instead of Keirath or Dropbear whom I actually "tunneled" more than him, hell I never even voted S&B).
However he always finds the time to post that when I accuse him, and he just disregards everything I say with that. That seems like an obvious attempt to reflect attention, I can't accuse him of anything since he posts "oh you are accusing me again", acts like I'm tunneling him for no reason similarly to other games, and just drops the subject
Scummy as fuck.
His defense didn't seem "townie" at all since he was needlessly aggressive: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=15#292
It reminded me of Risen's defense on LIII, where i accused him and he acted all offended, aggressive and mighty and call me shit and stuff (Risen was scum there).
Oh wait I'm not done.
I'll say that S&B FoSed Keirathi initially, and then backed off him and that seems townie. Yet he can still do it as scum so I won't take it into account (based on all the rest scummy stuff he did).
On July 14 2012 04:50 strongandbig wrote: so the vast majority of krathi's filter reads pretty scummy to me still, but him calling out derpberp for calling him town puts me in enough doubt that i dont really want to nuke him yet ##unvote
i was leaning townie on risen because of his trolovote on vivek, it seemed town - but now that i reread his filter there are a few things that give me pause. specifically, his "i hunt for whole scum teams" thing is pretty turr'ble - he says "it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team", which seems to be missing the point of scumhunting as a townie. i think a townie would be talking about "easy to find scum" not "easy to make cases". i also dont like how focused he is on defending himself by making a case on someone else instead of actually answering the cases against him. that said, I don't think that his inactivity makes him scummy, since he could just have lurked if he was lurky scum instead of promising future activity.
at the moment i'm waiting to see a bit more from him, we have like two and a half hours left.
im also leaning scum on vivek because of how he kept backing off of someone as soon as they defended themselves a little bit.
theres a bunch of other people who are kinda-sorta scummy, like gonzaw for his "trolololo i didnt read the setup" herpderp, marv for me not being able to read him anyway, and austin for that stuff about him and tali i talked about earlier.
for now ##vote: vivax
as for solstice it's not like I think he's super townie or anything, but i'm not sold on him being scum; asking questions can imply your opinions sometimes
actually wait that's a lie. i just read his filter from lvi and from noob17, and in both of those he asks questions a bunch but they feel more insightful than the ones he asks here, and he posts opinions interspersed with the questions. Plus if marv just caught a scum d1 it would mean hes probably town making my life easier (that's not true at all marv's meta is 100% to kill his teammates and we would learn nothing about him).
##unvote ##vote s0lstice
umm, vivax consider yourself pressured or whatever.
The tone of this post seems way too weird to me. With phrases like "trololol", the way he phrases stuff, etc don't make me think he's paying too much attention to the game or cares too much about it (if you disagree with this doesn't matter just ignore it).
His reads seem way too weird as well, and he doesn't really back them up at all (his read on me, vivex, etc).
His vote on solstice is very bad:
i just read his filter from lvi and from noob17, and in both of those he asks questions a bunch but they feel more insightful than the ones he asks here, and he posts opinions interspersed with the questions.
He's using meta ALONE about something IRRELEVANT (he asks "more insightful questions" when he's town, and he's "asking questions" here....how the hell is that relevant?)
It may seem like he did this post in a rush and was just reading stuff, thinking solstice was town, then rereading his filter and thinking he was scum and didn't have time to actually say why, but I don't really buy it.
I already mentioned something about him in that talis post. He then posts sporadically and not interested in any discussion or being part of them at all.
On July 14 2012 06:08 strongandbig wrote: im willing to vote austin but marv what do you think about sol now? still scum but less sure than austin, or are you doubting your earlier read on him?
I mean, he comes out of nowhere to manipulate marv into going against solstice again
On July 14 2012 06:47 strongandbig wrote: ##unvote ##vote vivax lets do this
Nice ninja-vote there that sealed Vivax's fate.
Like, he seems too scummy and nothing like his play in MTG (he was more active in discussion there, his posts made more sense, he wasn't this "trollish" and he didn't just post out of nowhere with random stuff and didn't care about the current discussion, at least not when he was active).
I could see him posting some stuff as town (like asking me about why I'm "not caring" about the setup, flip-flopping on his solstice read in that post seems like he was a townie changing his mind quickly, him backing off keiarth), but his attitude and content convince me otherwise.
Sorry if this was long but I had a LOT of things to say about S&B
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On July 14 2012 13:31 DropBear wrote: Oh wow how did I get so many votes?
Sorry Vivax, but you did meander around a lot.
I'm not keen on posting reads at night, too many WIFOM possibilities. I don't expect to be shot anyway due to the whole nearly getting lynched thing so I'll see the survivors in the morning.
I'd really like you posting stuff and shit to convince me you are town (if you are).
I think I'll get shot tonight (well I'm always shot N1, except when I'm playing with Ace), but even then I want to make the most accurate reads with the most possible info, so before dying town can take my words into account.
Posting your thoughts on what I just posted about talis/S&B would be nice for instance.
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But it's the only chance the guys that die by scum's hands get to voice their opinions
It's also a chance for other people to confirm themselves as town, or another chance to catch more scum (that way time is not wasted).
I dunno....I won't start a giant argument why discussing at night is helpful though
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On July 14 2012 14:18 Mattchew wrote: Hey guys I'm. Little drunk right nowzzzz but I want to lynch Gonzaw tlmmore cause his shoot is so lo g but bad and he acts likes it good... Off he thinks vivid I'd scum he's dumber than anywenbeebebe
I did use the "posts drunk-> is town" heuristic on Prome and S&B in MTG......but dude that doesn't really work in your favor right now.
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On July 15 2012 03:02 strongandbig wrote: I'm still at a loss to explain why gonzaw aggressively refused to read the thread and kept asking questions about setup, it just doesn't make sense from either a scum or town perspective.
As far as I know I only asked 2 questions, the "Is there a SK?" one and the "Is this plurality lynch?" one. In the 1st one I was half-joking kind of, and was lazy to reread the OP (I put it in the post right before posting it). I knew this was like C9++ but I forgot how the SK was chosen, so maybe there was a high chance of SK or something (mind you I thought all this in like 3 seconds). I realised I derped afterwards. After that I didn't "ask questions" but post my thoughts about reverse-engineering the setup.
In the 2nd one I was in a great hurry since there were only 30 minutes left and I didn't want to waste time rereading the OP at all (I had like 7 pages to read).
This looks eerily similar to your "case" against Grey last game (MTG Mafia)......but to be honest you were town there so I don't even know what to think about it :/ (you tend to make "bad" cases like this apparently, which makes it hard to figure out when you do them on purpose as scum).
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On July 15 2012 03:17 strongandbig wrote: - I get frustrated. You post these walls of text super often and they're all accusing me. It's like I can't post anything without having to defend myself against a bad case from you.
I made a wall of text accusing like 3-4 guys and I didn't even vote for you wtf are you talking about? How can you get frustrated just by having 1 guy FoS you? That's impossible.
If you are town, take a deep breath, relax, put some soothing music and calm the fuck down; this anti-town "frustrated and angry" persona you have this game doesn't help anybody at all.
- I don't understand how you call me "being needlessly aggressive" a scum tell. Sure, I'm being aggresive towards you, because I don't want to deal with you dominating the game again like in mtg, and I don't want every post I make to have to be about my relationship towards you.
Trying to shit things up and being instantly confrontational and disruptive when accused is not a town trait (again, I posted an example of someone doing the EXACT SAME THING as scum and it worked in his favour back then, meaning it's an used scum tactic).
- i don't give a fuck what you think about the "tone" of my posts. I'm fucking tired a lot during the week and I'm not going to fancy shit up for you.
That doesn't help at all. How the hell do you plan on "establishing your innocence" (something you said was the most important thing townies should do, which implies you'll try to do that yourself) if don't care shit about what you post and how, and you don't give a shit about what other people think of you and flipping your shit at people?
- how did I not back my reads up? My reasoning is right there. Sometimes being concise is useful, man. I could have written several paragraphs saying "vivak is scummy because he keeps accusing people then backing off of them very quickly." Instead I said it in one sentence.
That's being "too" concise to the point you don't say anything interesting and make it impossible for people to figure out your intentions, specially if you vote people based on only that.
It's fucking easy as scum to state a one-liner and vote someone because of that, it needs no effort whatsoever other than just briefly skimming someone's filter to find what one-liner to say.
It shows lack of effort, not being "concise".
Okay, I'll give it to you that it may have been a good reason to vote for him (had you expanded on it), but it doesn't tell me shit about your alignment other than that "lacks effort" bit from above
- I really don't understand this part from you. Show nested quote +gonzaw saidI said i just read his filter from lvi and from noob17, and in both of those he asks questions a bunch but they feel more insightful than the ones he asks here, and he posts opinions interspersed with the questions. He's using meta ALONE about something IRRELEVANT (he asks "more insightful questions" when he's town, and he's "asking questions" here....how the hell is that relevant?) This makes me think you're scum. How do you not see that "asking questions about irrelevant things" and "asking questions that could help reveal alignment" are different? And more importantly, in those other games he posted opinions whereas in this one he didn't. This point feels manufactured (and tbh I think some of the other points in here seem manufactured too. If you're town man you don't need to post a ginormous case like this every time, you can just post the things that you actually think and that actually make sense). "my attitude convinces you i'm scum" I don't even understand what this means. I guess you mean my attitude towards you this game? Well, I think I explained that above but let me be a little more clear here: I think you ruined MTG mafia because you posted obsessively, and by sheer weight of posts (as well as the fact that a lot of the players there were newbs and that half the vets were scum) you managed to bully the thread into obsessing over whoever you were suspicious of - even though your suspicions were wrong, and (I thought) obviously so. I found that really frustrating, so I'm sorry but for the next while that I play with you I'm going to call your stupid bs out as clearly as I can.
Saying that in one game he was town he "asked more insightful questions" than this game doesn't mean shit if you justify it for a vote.
I didn't really think he was "asking questions about irrelevant things" to be honest, and I don't know wtf you are talking about about "more insightful questions". Just by that alone it's a total bullshit reason since I don't get what "asking more insightful questions" has anything to do with anybody's alignment or how it even works (what do you consider "insightful question"?).
I didn't take into account the "post opinions" thing since I didn't see the relevance either.
Hmm....*sigh* okay I'll give one thing to you, I'm rereading solstice's filter and he doesn't really "post opinions".
But if you are going to make an argument that justifies a vote on solstice instead of a vote on Vivax/Dropbear/someone else based on meta and his play in another game then post some reasoning and quotes from it, saying "he asks insightful questions and posts opinions, here he doesn't, ##vote: solstice" again makes me think you don't give a shit about the game, you skimmedthrough another game of his and tried to find the easiest thing to accuse him of and come up with a bullshit reason to justify your vote.
Agh fuck this I can't shake that feeling from the other game and maybe you are genuinely frustrated at me with that vendetta of yours. If you are town please calm down and put more effort.
Speaking of which S&B, what do you think of Mattchew, talismania and what was said before?
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On July 15 2012 06:07 marvellosity wrote: you asked how many scum there were earlier in the game too, and then that PM business.
Reading the OP to find out what kind of lynch it is is 10x quicker than typing out the question and waiting for the response.
It IS extremely annoying when you already post a shit-tonne and you include crap like that when you can just read the thread instead.
I did skim the OP a little bit but didn't found that part so I made that question afterwards. After making that question and you shitting on me about it I spent like 2-3 minutes trying to figure out where it said "its majority rule"
I forgot it was under "Voting rules", I thought there would be a "Voting: This follows the majority bla bla bla" section under the "Spam", "Inappropiate Posts" ,etc one >_>
About the scum question I think wbg posted the "this follows the C9++ setup" thing in the OP after I read it when I signed up; and posted it in the thread after I was away and came back to start the game so I didn't notice it (I went directly to the Day 1 post ignoring the Pre-game ones).
Anyways yeah I may have derped there, but is this really that important? If you guys want to discuss other things about my play that are relevant to the game then sure, but this seems pointless
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GG marv
+ Show Spoiler [Speculation, ignore this if you want] +Hmm...okay there have been 2 VT's flipped, and we could (not definitive) claim that there is no SK. Taking the C9++ thing into account, if there are 2 more VTs (the T's in the setup) it's likely there are only 2 scum in this game. I doubt ALL VTs were the ones that already flipped, I guess its likely there are 2 more.
I.E it's likely there are only 2 scum and no SK
talismania, do you have anything to say about what I said about you earlier?
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On July 15 2012 07:56 sciberbia wrote: @gonzaw I don't think you understand how C9++ works
From what I understand, there can be as many as 7 VT's and still have 3 mafia and no SK.
I think I got it wrong and it was 4 more VTs rather than 2 VTs so ignore that. Actually fuck I derped with that as well disregard it.
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Okay this is going nowhere and I really need some people to come and do shit.
@solstice: Apart from Risen and Milton from yesterday what are your opinions on other players you may find scummy? Anything changed since then? What about Risen's aggressivity and high activity? (if you can read my posts these last few pages about my thoughts on Risen and comment on him taking that into account).
What are your thoughts on S&B and talis?
@talis:
On July 15 2012 07:53 talismania wrote: yeah for sure
I think you were wrong about one thing - I did comment on your setup posts in my big impressions post. The rest I kinda agree with. I honestly felt great about dropbear for the reasons I posted and because I smelled a bandwagon on me forming. Then milton and austin jumped off far too fast and I felt rather unsure of what was happening. Marv tempted me to jump off on austin but I felt like the majority would be easier on dropbear. At the same time risen took his chains off and went crazy. I liked the story he told with his case on vivax but none of that fit with my read on dropbear.
So what now? What will you do now? Will you still go against Dropbear? Do you have any thoughts on someone else that could be scum?
I expect some serious explanation from Mattchew. Like, I thought he was town but what you did made no fucking sense I'm contemplating lynching you just because of it (specially since you went AFK all night just to make a stupid drunk post as well).
I'm wary of Dropbear as well, but I don't really know what to think of him. His vote on Vivax was very bad, and him considering MIlton as almost confirmed town as well. Hmm, but like some people (I think marv) said, the "in-your-face" attitude of his may not correspond to him being scum, and his vote on Vivax and him disappearing may mean derp town. However it's still worrying how long he has been without contributing (since like half of D1 or something).
Keirathi, you too. I started to get a town feeling off you because of some little things you did, but this intermittent "ask guys stuff but not do anything myself" thing you are doing ever since late D1 doesn't convince me at all.
I'd like people to come in and state what they want this D2 (i.e who they want to lynch, which player they want more info from, stuff like that). If not we'll be like last day where it was 5 hours before the deadline and nobody had any idea of what to do.
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On July 15 2012 14:48 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 12:16 gonzaw wrote: I get the feeling Keirath is more likely scum. Like Matt said his reads seemed "forced", in the way that they weren't much reads at all. At least S&B's read, where Kei calls him suspicious but townie at the same time (and calls him suspicious for some bad reasons I think). He seems fixated on "meta" somehow, thinking all of us are using "meta" to catch scum (we are not). His defense of Milkton seemed out of place as well (like it came out of nowhere and he defended him just because of "meta" again, hell I don't even know why he's defending him).
Like said before his posts are too verbose, but trying to blend in IMO. He also spends quite time just defending himself which I don't particularly like (he could have been pushing for other reads at that time).
Let's go with this, but I'd be happy with a switch on Dropbear to be honest (hmm, I think S&B could be scum as well, but I'll wait till he comes back)
##Unvote: austinmcc ##Vote: Keirath Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 02:49 gonzaw wrote: I agree with marv that Keirath has not been involved in anything since a long time. I did notice some "townie" stuff he might have done (calling Dropbear out for calling him town, coming out of nowhere to defend Milton); but I get a more "noob scum" feel from the rest of his post (differently than other players like solstice for instance, where I get a "noob town" feel from their post but may have done some little "scummy" stuff), so I don't really take those into account.
Hmm, I think I'll keep my vote on Keirath for now, him doing nothing since posting those reads like a day ago doesn't convince me to unvote him.
@gonzaw I just noticed this contradiction while reading through filters. Keirathi's defense of Milton was originally a scummy point in your eyes but suddenly changed to a townie point. There was no other discussion of Keirathi's defense of Milton in between your two posts. Care to explain the contradiction?
I guess the easiest way to explain that is a little bit of confirmation bias (in both ways, whether when I thought he was scum or whether when I thought he was town, or I started to doubt him being scum)
The hardest way to explain it is by having it be a "null tell, one that could be done by both scum and town" and me thinking one or the other when reading him.
To be honest, when I see that kind of "townie stuff" I try to see if it would be an "absurd play" as scum, and if it was (or wasn't) whether it could push a scum agenda or not. That thing Keirathi did was "slightly" an "absurd play" if he was scum (but not that much), but I struggled to think of scum motivation behind it (besides other "absurd plays" other scum do in other games, like uber bussing or "Risen's LIII play", etc) since it may have not been that obvious, but I guess it's not that alignment telling (though kind of odd anyways). Fuck, sorry for the above fluff
Yeah I'm a little drunk (OMG, DOES THAT MEAN I'M TOWN? YES THAT FUCKING HEURISTIC WORKS!!!? YAY!!) (Actually no I could have posted drunk as scum as well so IGNORE IT. Stay Pro-town Liquidia)
Yo S&B before doing anything I'd like to see what you think about solstice here accusing you, and what you think of said accusation. Also be less of a derp and "ffffurfurfrustrated fuck" and be more chill if not I won't be able to read you.
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Just woke up, and it's Fathers Day here so I'll be gone for a couple of hours.
This is a fucking disgrace Mattchew, where the fuck are you?
Same to Dropbear really.
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Okay got back.
Skimming the thread, I got a weird feeling of solstice going against S&B, but that's maybe because I got a change of mind about S&B and wanted to give him a little break.
I see Mattchew just came right off the bat with a case and a vote...and I don't know if I like that (I didn't see him explaining wtf he did last day).
Anyways, gonna sort some stuff here in my house, do stuff for the other mafia game I'm playing, and get back here.
Dunno about talis yet, I'm having some difficulty trying to figure out the whole tails/Dropbear/solstice situation; but I'll make sure to read on that.
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On July 16 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 06:28 gonzaw wrote: Okay got back.
Skimming the thread, I got a weird feeling of solstice going against S&B, but that's maybe because I got a change of mind about S&B and wanted to give him a little break.
I see Mattchew just came right off the bat with a case and a vote...and I don't know if I like that (I didn't see him explaining wtf he did last day).
Anyways, gonna sort some stuff here in my house, do stuff for the other mafia game I'm playing, and get back here.
Dunno about talis yet, I'm having some difficulty trying to figure out the whole tails/Dropbear/solstice situation; but I'll make sure to read on that. No explaination, wasn't around
Yes you were, don't lie:
On July 14 2012 04:57 Mattchew wrote: how much time till lynch
On July 14 2012 04:58 Mattchew wrote: and can we get a vote count?
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On July 16 2012 06:45 Mattchew wrote: So I couldn't have left 2 hours before the lynch? I wasn't voting Vivax, and my questions werent answered before I had left.
Not without explaining why you kept your vote on sciberbia (if you knew you weren't going to be back before the deadline) ro explaining anything at all or if you still thought sciberbia was scum. Or anything at all basically. People not giving you an exact vote count isn't an excuse to waste your vote, leave the thread and come back 24 hours later without giving a shit about the lynch.
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On July 16 2012 06:48 sciberbia wrote: "Heh heh heh. Town is trying to lynch one of us three scum: mattchew, talis, and gonzaw. How can I throw them off track? Oh I know! I'll leave my vote on sciberbia and mysteriously dissapear. Without my vote, there is no way they'll get a scum. Heh heh heh. I am the brilliant scum mastermind, Mattchew. And there's no way anyone will find my disapearence suspicious"
It's just ridiculous. His disappearing is a busytell, not a scumtell. If Mattchew was scum, how hard would it have been to just hang around and sheep marv's vote? Not that hard. Being around for the lynch but not doing anything (i.e. talis) is more suspicious than not being there at all.
Mattchew did very similar stuff in MTG. He went AFK for the WHOLE D1 and he didn't give a fuck about being called out.
Him being afk itself isn't worrying, it's worrying when it's obvious he doesn't give a shit about anything and isn't even trying to explain himself about his inactivity and lack of effort.
I'm torn because his earlier posts did seem townie, but that behaviour of his strikes some doubt (specially if it wasn't for some outside reason, like getting his internet connection cut or something). I'll try to drop the subject before reading this thread and his case on talis; but this is basically exclusive since it's about his earlier behaviour.
gonzaw telling our vig to shoot Mattchew over this is one of the reasons I'm suspicious of gonzaw
That was marv
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On July 16 2012 06:55 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 06:49 gonzaw wrote:On July 16 2012 06:45 Mattchew wrote: So I couldn't have left 2 hours before the lynch? I wasn't voting Vivax, and my questions werent answered before I had left. Not without explaining why you kept your vote on sciberbia (if you knew you weren't going to be back before the deadline) ro explaining anything at all or if you still thought sciberbia was scum. Or anything at all basically. People not giving you an exact vote count isn't an excuse to waste your vote, leave the thread and come back 24 hours later without giving a shit about the lynch. I had given my opinion on Vivax, because I wasn't confident in it doesn't mean I was ever going to vote to lynch him. So I left my opinions and my vote as they were
Vivax wasn't the 100% sure lynch at that point. Dropbear already had votes, and to be honest you could have voted for someone else like austin, Keriathi, etc since they had votes as well. What made you keep your vote on sciberbia and not even consider changing it? What made you not even discuss about it? Or were you in too much of a hurry to explain stuff? If so you could have mentioned you were in a hurry before so we'd avoid this whole mess
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On July 16 2012 07:01 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 06:53 gonzaw wrote:On July 16 2012 06:48 sciberbia wrote: "Heh heh heh. Town is trying to lynch one of us three scum: mattchew, talis, and gonzaw. How can I throw them off track? Oh I know! I'll leave my vote on sciberbia and mysteriously dissapear. Without my vote, there is no way they'll get a scum. Heh heh heh. I am the brilliant scum mastermind, Mattchew. And there's no way anyone will find my disapearence suspicious"
It's just ridiculous. His disappearing is a busytell, not a scumtell. If Mattchew was scum, how hard would it have been to just hang around and sheep marv's vote? Not that hard. Being around for the lynch but not doing anything (i.e. talis) is more suspicious than not being there at all. Mattchew did very similar stuff in MTG. He went AFK for the WHOLE D1 and he didn't give a fuck about being called out. Him being afk itself isn't worrying, it's worrying when it's obvious he doesn't give a shit about anything and isn't even trying to explain himself about his inactivity and lack of effort. I'm torn because his earlier posts did seem townie, but that behaviour of his strikes some doubt (specially if it wasn't for some outside reason, like getting his internet connection cut or something). I'll try to drop the subject before reading this thread and his case on talis; but this is basically exclusive since it's about his earlier behaviour. gonzaw telling our vig to shoot Mattchew over this is one of the reasons I'm suspicious of gonzaw That was marv Gonzaw do you really not see the difference between how mattchew is posting this game and how he posted in mtg? I'm like 75 percent sure mattchew is town right now.
I'm talking about the action itself and how it isn't a "town tell" coming from Mattchew. I said I'm reading the thread later (I'm not actually seriously accusing him right now, at least not before reading his other posts), I just want a (justified) explanation for that previous behaviour of his (you can't tell me it wasn't odd as fuck, everybody noticed it).
I already talked about his posting before his "derp", although I skimmed his posts afterwards (from this D2) and they aren't that "townie" as his first ones.
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On July 16 2012 07:03 sciberbia wrote: @gonzaw Don't you think Mattchew expected to get some serious flak for disappearing?
If he was scum and did it on purpose yes (if he's town then he obviously didn't think about it).
I just don't get why scum Mattchew would intentionally draw suspicion to himself unless he had a legit reason for vanishing.
I guess you don't know scum Mattchew and what he's capable of. Some scum don't give a shit about slight "WIFOMy" suspicion on themselves if they can get it away easily later or shift attention elsewhere and keep doing what they do. Risen, Mattchew, Palmar, Ace, etc are some players that tend to act like that as scum every once and then
Hence why I think it's just a busytell and not alignment indicative.
I don't know if its a busytell if I don't get a reasonable explanation for it. He WAS active when he made those posts, and there were lots of discussion going on about Vivax, Dropbear, Keirathi, solstice, etc. At that point in time (if he didn't just come, post and immediately leave) there were tons of things he could have done to help town, keeping his vote on sciberbia and not explaining anything isn't part of that.
Unless he was in such a hurry he only had time to post and not read the thread at all (and he still believed sciberbia was scum); then it's not a "busytell" and it's odd as fuck.
Him not explaining himself at all until I JUST asked him to is odd as fuck as well.
(damn, I see this is taking quite a detour in town discussion. Matt please explain EVERYTHING that went through your mind at that time and what you did (i.e what activity you had, if you were actually reading the thread or just posted and left, etc) so we can get this over with)
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Okay I finished my stuff in the other game, I'll start on this one.
What fucking difference does it make whether or not he explains himself? If we think he's town it doesn't matter and if we think he's scum we can't believe him anyway. He disappeared; that's scummy or it's not. But stop obsessing over it.
If he's town he has an alibi and a justification for it, I want it. Why? Because what he did was very scummy, it was (I've already stated why). I'm not calling him straight up scum since his earlier posting made me think he was town, but if he tries to avoid this issue I won't know what to think of it, you can't just ignore what Matt did (specially considering he made that "drunk" post later and disappeared again).
Hmm, I'll reread the cases but first I have some questions to solstice and austin:
@solstice: Could you give examples of this?:
On July 15 2012 15:17 s0Lstice wrote: He was just in a game with risen where he flipped town, and exhibited the exact same behaviors he is finding scummy here. I know that he knows that Risen likes to throw out whole scumteams as town, and rely on connections between scum teammates.
Finding him suspicious for those reasons this game makes me think he is scum.
Do you have proof that S&B would know Risen acts like that as town?
Speaking of which, I guess this means you think Risen is town then? Weren't you suspicious of Risen before? You even voted him last day and said he "had a high chance of flipping scum" (or something like that). Does this thing you posted (Risen likes to make connections and whole scumteams, implying he's playing here just like he's playing when he was town) mean you changed your mind about him?
@austin:
I'm getting a town feel off you, but some people pointed this out and I can't help but feel it's weird:
On July 14 2012 05:29 austinmcc wrote: Torn on Keirathi. He's got some townie-looking posts, but they come only after he was pressured for being too neutral and guarded. Once he posts them, he's mostly checked out. Wishing there was more to work with here. (He posted as I was writing this, need to look back over)
Vivax looks scummy in his hopping around, all the meta nometa crap. But Vivax ALWAYS looks scummy to me. I mislynched him in newbie XVI, I found him scummy in LVI (alignment unknown as of yet), and so I don't really want to vote him D1. To me, he's an easy mislynch to push if I'm scum. He's so wrapped up in this person's meta or that person's meta that the scum team should be telling him to knock it off, right? There were plenty of other options for today's lynch, we had so many scattered votes at the start of the day. So why let him keep hanging himself? Don't like it.
marv and solstice, how are you seeing Vivax right now?
Risen still doesn't look great either. He comes back with a full scum team, an alternate scum in Gonzaw, and finds my finding him townie scummy. No activity --> 5 scum reads, with only a little reasoning backing that up. And now he tunnels Vivax, who again I always seem to find scummy and could see myself trying to mislynch if I were scum.
At the moment, I'm willing to consolidate onto Vivax or Risen if needed, but probably not Keirathi in light of his most recent response(s).
For now, my vote's going on solstice. Something really bugs me about him finding my early game to match my townie play. Yes, the length is always there, but my early posts were a mess. Gonzaw's right about that, marv is right that they look off. I wasn't pressured at all really in my newbie games, barring XIII which was just an odd game to play in. I think my response to a little pressure here was way off, because while I normally post lengthy, it's not so disorganized and jumbled. Concerned that he didn't pick up on that. That little thing keeps nagging at me enough that I'm willing to vote him.
##Vote: Solstice
What exactly went through your mind when you made this post? Did you really think Vivax or Risen were scummy? You posted reasons why Vivax could be an "easy misslynch scum would push", but you said you'd consolidate on him, and hell you actually did later (you did change your vote on Vivax later):
On July 14 2012 06:47 austinmcc wrote: I said I'd consolidate on Vivax or Risen, and I will.
##Unvote ##Vote: Vivax
Two things basically: 1)What exactly had Risen and Vivax have to do with your vote choice here? Did you really think solstice was more likely scum? Why did you choose to vote him over those 2? 2)What made you vote Vivax later and not talk about it? You didn't explain anything about it, even though you actually posted some reasons not to vote Vivax. After that you never mentioned Vivax or your vote on him again. Why exactly was that?
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(ehmm, I didn't really read the whole thread by that point and I skimmed solstice other post and I may have missed something though, so if I did I'm sorry I didn't read the whole thread before doing that).
@solstice: I wrote A LOT of shit about S&B, what do you think of it? (specially what I wrote about him last night)
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Basically what I mean is this:
1)I wrote a lot of shit about why I initially thought S&B was scummy: Here, and here. 2)I then wrote a lot of shit about why I think he could have posted those as "frustrated townie", which made me back off attacking him: Here, and here.
What are your thoughts on both issues? You seemed to ignore them in your read of S&B and instead focused on his read on marv/Risen and few stuff. I also want to know if it affects your read on him or not, and why.
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On July 16 2012 04:44 Risen wrote: Going to lunch with my mentee, going to the store, then I'll be back. I'll go through and rebuild everything with Viv as a townie in mind (still... STILL hurts me on the inside that he was town and I could be so wrong. I have never felt so certain of someone being scum)
Are you here now? (I think 4 hours is enough to lunch+go to the store).
I really really want you to do something Risen, this "Oh no Vivax was town my life is over!" attitude of yours doesn't help (I actually find it a little weird Vivax's flip affected you so much).
Like it may be too convenient if you are scum: 1)Tunnel the hell out of Vivax, post shit, sought chaos, accuse everybody that defends Vivax and just have fun disrupting the hell out of D1 all you want 2)Once Vivax flips town, be "demoralized" and "lack confidence" so you are justified in not doing shit for the rest of the game (or at least D2) and you are free to lurk all you want
I know you can do that as scum Risen (some reasons I already posted here and here), so please forget about Vivax and put more effort
If you are here reading the thread/filters, please post now so we know you are doing so (so we can hold you accountable that you will be posting soon). I don't want you away until way too late into the day, in case you are scum.
@solstice: Please read what I posted about S&B (I think it may have described S&B's behavior quite well). I'll be waiting for your thoughts on it (I really want to see the impact it has on you and your read on S&B, and your reaction to it).
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On July 16 2012 09:02 sciberbia wrote: @gonzaw I'll post my thoughts on s&b next. Please post your most current thoughts on talis.
I found him initially suspicious last night, and so far I didn't see anything that would change my mind from him when I skimmed the thread. But damn I still haven't finished reading the thread in its whole :/ (still haven't reached most of the cases done this day) Too little time to do everything.
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On July 16 2012 09:42 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 09:19 gonzaw wrote:On July 16 2012 09:02 sciberbia wrote: @gonzaw I'll post my thoughts on s&b next. Please post your most current thoughts on talis. I found him initially suspicious last night, and so far I didn't see anything that would change my mind from him when I skimmed the thread. But damn I still haven't finished reading the thread in its whole :/ (still haven't reached most of the cases done this day) Too little time to do everything. You look extremely dodgy right now with matters involving the actual lynch and scum hunting today
I haven't read the entire thread and I'm having doubts about some people. Some, like solstice, I want to see how he reacts about that S&B thing I mentioned to see if their reaction is legit or not. Same with austin, and Risen.
I haven't looked too much into talis/Dropbear since I haven't gotten to the cases against them (the ones on this D2), so I haven't updated my thoughts on them yet.
What do you mean by "dodgy" though?
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Okay, I've been rereading some stuff and I drop my suspicion of austin, I just can't see him as scum at the moment. Some of that stuff you guys (sciberbia && austin) said makes sense. Plus what I said last night (that S&B's actions did make sense with him being overly frustrated at me, plus his suspicion of solstice and shit) it's likely he's town.
Okay, 2 conundrums resolved, now onto talismania/Dropbear/solstice/Mattchew/Risen/Keirathi
Just by gut feeling without reading those cases (again, sorry really don't have the time, I'm putting lots of effort in that other mafia game....hey if you guys want you can check it out if I link it to you, you can learn one thing or two ) I get the feeling the scum are there and nowhere else. I haven't checked Milton too much, but I get a feeling he's town, specially because of his stance on talis which he changed after people pointed out how "bad" it was (in the sense that he was only talking about meta). His case on Dropbear seems legit, since I can't really see him heavily accusing someone that considers him almost confirmed town as scum.
So by process of elimination (sciberbia, S&B, austin, Milton), it leaves those 6, with 3-4 anti town factions (scum+SK), so I think this day will be a good one.
About Keirathi: I get the feeling Keirathi is town but I'm not that sure, I wouldn't mind leaving him for later. Basically, some of what I said earlier applies, in the sense that he didn't really try to scumhunt until being called out (by marv), and those reads seemed pretty bad (specially the one on S&B). After that he spent most of his time defending himself and not really trying to scumhunt. Plus since N1 and D2 I didn't see him do anything constructive at all (hell did he even post in D2?). His defense of Vivax could have given him town points...but I'm not sure (scum opposing a town misslynch on D1 isn't uncommon at all).
There are little things that make me think he's town (I've explained them already I think), and tiny bits of reaction he made that I don't really see him making as scum. However those reactions were basically the only thing in his filter at some points, and there was very little scumhunting in between. Now that I look at the tone of his posts it seems townie too me though (gut feeling) so maybe he's likely town
I just noticed this:
On July 16 2012 08:46 Keirathi wrote: Sorry, I had to make an emergency trip out of town. Posting from my phone now, but I should have access to a computer later tonight so that I can catch up and post some ideas.
So I guess that's the reason he wasn't active.
Hmm, I'm slightly leaning town but I'm not that sure. Just like Risen I need him to actually do something today to solidify my read on him
I already discussed Risen (I'm waiting for him to come back), and I'll discuss Mattchew a little bit:
About Mattchew:
On July 12 2012 10:44 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote:On July 12 2012 10:34 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 10:00 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote: Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early. Thank you captain obvious. Instead of posting tautologies, do you have an opinion on said subject? (i.e do you think I'm extremely eager townie or do you think I'm scum looking for easy targets to push?) In hindsight this came out more aggressive than I meant it :/ It's cool. It's nothing compared to what I handled from igrok my last game. Anywho, I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. He wasn't pushing lurkers he was pushing people that posted that sounded excited to participate and post and then didn't.
On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit
I like these since they are concise and give good info. Talis plan was bad and he immediately pointed out without dragging it on. He pointed out the "root" of my accusation and basically agreed with it, even though he was one of the guys I accused (and I mentioned before I wouldn't really expect this from scum Matt, I thought he'd either ignore it or shit on it).
His next posts are good as well, I like how he's not shitting on me and reads me okay by that point (that might be a little biased though ).
He does make contributions that are indeed "concise" and improve town's atmosphere. He even goes to great length to defend Vivax from marv even before the Vivax wagon started. As well as his read on S&B. So far (assuming S&B is town) that would be a VERY passive game for Mattchew to make as scum, in the sense that he doesn't start shitting and accusing townies left and right, but actually making sense and getting those townies to be recognized as such.
His later posts don't really seem the same way (trying to improve town), yet seem more like slightly irrelevant one-liners. Him defending Dropbear and me does seem townie though.
However, after that he makes his blunder, where he posts asking for the vote count, but doesn't do shit and keeps his vote on sciberbia. I found this extremely scummy because he WAS active then and as a townie would have cared more about the lynch (and his vote), yet he didn't seem to care. I find it odd as well how now Mattchew seems to avoid that issue and not give me an explanation at all (was he really busy and in a hurry or was he lurking the thread at that point?) that could completely remove my suspicion on him (well not "completely" but I would disregard it).
I don't like this drunk post at all:
On July 14 2012 14:18 Mattchew wrote: Hey guys I'm. Little drunk right nowzzzz but I want to lynch Gonzaw tlmmore cause his shoot is so lo g but bad and he acts likes it good... Off he thinks vivid I'd scum he's dumber than anywenbeebebe
Since I don't know wtf he's saying and why he thinks I'm scum.
On July 15 2012 02:02 Mattchew wrote: Wow I guess drunk me doesn't like reading
Here he posts sober but fails to explain his behaviour last day, even though he should have read that me+marv+others found it suspicious as fuck.
From then he seemed less interested in improving town's atmosphere than early-D1. He didn't explain himself at all, and throughout all N1 didn't do shit.
I may agree with his case on talis (need to filter talis first), but after that he doesn't really do a good job of explaining himself (about his behaviour or why he thinks I'm scum). I don't like how he's casting suspicion on me right now either, yet refuses to say anything about me or why he changed his town read on me.
However, I could see town Mattchew just not caring about his D1 fluke and thinking I'm shitting up the thread about it (thus making him a little bit more suspicious of me), but those reasons above don't make me confident in thinking he's town at all, specially since I know Mattchew is capable of doing that "fluke" as scum just to skate by D1, whether other people find it scummy or not (he wouldn't really care as scum).
This is why I'm torn on him, and why I wanted that explanation from him. I would also like an explanation on what he thinks of sciberbia ever since early-D1 and why he changed his mind on me (him not responding these strike me as suspicious as well, since again I can easily see scum Mattchew just not caring about it at this point).
He had a good start that made me think he was town but some of his actions and behaviour made me doubt that (since scum Matthew could have just tried to appear pro-town on early-D1 like that)
Holy shit that was long.
Anyways, I do feel solstice+talismania are scum, and well didn't really read on Dropbear yet (or these new cases) so I'll do it shortly.
I don't really know how to decipher the talis/Dropbear situation (if one is scum, or both are scum, etc), but I'll give it a try.
For now I wouldn't oppose a talismania lynch at all by what I've skimmed (plus talismania has basically been useless all late-D1, and all D2 as well). I don't know if maybe I'd support a solstice lynch better, or if I change my mind and find Dropbear more scummy, but we'll see once I read the thread once and for all!
Stay tuned.
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Fuck it I doubt I'll change my mind about talismania.
##Vote: talismania
Just wanted to get the vote out there for a more "official" standing of what I said before.
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Before going into the talis/solstice stuff, a question for sciberbia:
On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote: 1) talismania: I really want to lynch him. 2) gonzaw: I have a few minor points against him, but other than that it's gut feeling. He reminds me a lot of mafia Xatalos from NMM XV. gonzaw and talis are linked as scumbuddies in my mind. I want to see talis flip red before we lynch gonzaw.
Why is it you think me and talis are "linked as scumbuddies"? Other than that what "gut feeling" do you get about me?
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EBWOP:
Disclaimer: I will look into talis/solstice/Dropbear, but I doubt I will today, it's too late now (almost 1am basically) and I'm too tired and I'm still reading the thread rechecking filters every time an accusation is made to see if its content is acceptable or not and shit.
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Well, just one little thing about S&B's case on Dropbear:
For one, I now think you are town because of it. The way you pushed it makes me think you were actually paying attention to Dropbear's filter and not just skimming it to find something scummy about him to justify your vote. Plus some other little stuff that made my gut think you are town
Other than that, I have a question here (playing a little bit of devil's advocate):
S&B wrote: I contend that in general DropBear is not following the spirit of his pregame advice, even though he is mostly (but not nearly always) following the letter of it.
What if Dropbear was just unable to control his own play to reflect that advice he stated?
For instance, I think I could have posted a similar advice (consolidate posts, don't overpost, etc), but I don't think I could really force myself to follow it (man just look at my posts this game...it's like an addiction ).
If Dropbear was town, there would be a chance that he just posted that advice to indeed appear pro-town (and establish his innocence), or even if he actually believed it, but didn't have the willpower to follow it himself the way you stated it.
With that in mind, does that change your read on him or not?
/devil's advocate
Finished reading the thread from where I left off: Hmm, I'm not finding Dropbear very suspicious. His defense of S&B's case and Milton seemed pretty good, some of the points against him are pretty bad (like talis accusing him of being scum because Dropbear shitted on his plan at one point), and his case against solstice seems legit. I may be looking this in a biased light since I'm getting the feeling both talis and solstice are scum, but I haven't really read their filters yet so I could reconsider it.
Argg there are some tiny stuff that doesn't make me that comfortable with a talis lynch (part of his defense really, the reaction he had mostly, and some scum motivation I don't really find in some of the stuff he said). I may reconsider a solstice lynch instead, but I need to reread their filters first.
Actually I read some other stuff (from austin or sciberbia I think) and I may not feel the same way right now and may actually want to lynch him. I'll get down to this after reading their filters (damn this shit is tiring).
Things that definitely need to happen (IMO) before making any sort of sure assessment today:
- solstice should read what I wrote about S&B, what sciberbia, austin and others posted about S&B, and post what effect it had on his read of S&B and see how he reacts
- Risen needs to stop acting like a baby and do something today (check my other posts regarding this)
- I think Mattchew should explain himself better and explain some of his reads, like the one on sciberbia better (not uber necessary though).
- talis should try to establish his innocence (if he's town) by being active, posting more opinions considering he should realize he'll likely be today's lynch (optional, only if he's town lol)
- Keirathi needs to come and do shit
About that last one: don't only come up with a "case" on someone, park your vote and just stay around, but comment on all the important discussions going on about certain players (dropbear, S&B, Mattchew, talis of course, solstice, etc) and on the specific discussions and points/accusations made and post your thoughts about them. For instance, what do you think of solstice's FoS of S&B and everybody else having a town read on him? What about Mattchew's "blunder" from D1, his explanation, my thoughts on it, and all the shit said?
Stuff like that is stuff I'd like you to post your thoughts about. Not just post thoughts about EVERYTHING that happened in the history of the universe, but posting thoughts on the matters you think are important.
I'd greatly help me (and other townies) get an accurate read on you
I'd guess I'll expect the same from Milton, since I don't really have a good read on him.
I have one other thing to say though:
sciberbia, austin, you are so fucking town it hurts. For fucks sake the effort you are putting in this game is astonishing, like even when I try to read your posts with a "okay let's assume this guy is scum or could be scum, what agenda is he pushing?" mind I just can't do it taking all the stuff you go through and all the effort you put in getting accurate reads, sharing them and getting info out of people. If any of you is scum then you are playing fucking great and I wouldn't mind losing to you.
So congratz on that.
Okay I'll go to bed now
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Well, that compliment should really be made after you answer this:
On July 16 2012 12:41 gonzaw wrote:Before going into the talis/solstice stuff, a question for sciberbia: Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote: 1) talismania: I really want to lynch him. 2) gonzaw: I have a few minor points against him, but other than that it's gut feeling. He reminds me a lot of mafia Xatalos from NMM XV. gonzaw and talis are linked as scumbuddies in my mind. I want to see talis flip red before we lynch gonzaw. Why is it you think me and talis are "linked as scumbuddies"? Other than that what "gut feeling" do you get about me?
I found you pushing for my lynch there quite odd, since you never mentioned similar suspicions about me before. But I can't shake that feeling that if you actually tried to cast suspicion on me as scum...you wouldn't do it as half-assed as that (just saying "they are linked scumbuddies"). I don't think someone like you would go against someone like me based on those reasons alone, without actually trying to cast more suspicion on me (if that was your initial goal) or discrediting me somehow.
I still want to hear your answer though.
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EBWOP:
Not "pushing for my lynch" but "finding me suspicious".
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@sciberbia: Okay, if talis flips scum I'll address those points if they still bother you. Meh even if he flips town as well, but I'll address them later basically since I don't have much time to be honest (and the lynch is in 3 hours right? the mayority needs 6 votes and there are only 5 on talis right now).
Okay I'll continue reading the thread
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On July 17 2012 05:04 Keirathi wrote: Also @sciberbia: why am I not your top candidate anymore? You repeatedly stated at the end of Day1 that I was your biggest scum read, but you were going to consolidate onto Vivax just to avoid the no-lynch, which is fine.
But by this point, I had already done all the "towntelling" things that you give matt poins for pointing out in your Matt defense post.
What happened to change your mind when I really didn't do anything during the night and was out of town for basically the entire day?
Can you comment on other issues? What about solstice, S&B, Mattchew, Risen, and all the stuff that was discussed about them? Of course who you want to lynch is a very important one (I'd like sciberbia to answer that though, doesn't hurt anybody)
About talis: Before his "plan", I actually found him kind of town. He posted that graph of posts from all his last 5 games to "check his meta", and well that seems like a lot of effort (don't know if he did it in pre-game though). Plus the tone of some of the things he said and just a little gut feeling of the way he interacted with people made me think he was town at that point (and I get a little townie feels right now, although I don't know if I should take them into account or not).
Hmm, the "plan" itself didn't seem scummy in my mind. It did spark some discussion, and to be honest I didn't really see the plan as "the most anti-town thing" in the way that I could see him posting it as town. His "gauging reactions" is null basically.
The thing is that from that point onwards his play totally decays. He spends way too much time talking about the validity of his "plan", and spends way too much time just prodding Dropbear with the same stuff (Dropbear insta-voting Vivax). After that he doesn't seem to care in my mind. Responding to unrelated stuff he never follows (like telling marv about his "nice shit" on solstice, telling Risen to post his thoughts about what I said of him), having an "I don't care" attitude (when he posts thoughts about Milton and austin for instance, and the tone of his posts) and even having that attitude with his reads (like the ones in the post where he voted Dropbear) give me that feeling.
The thing about his play decaying is that it didn't seem like he'd play like that at all once the game started. Once the game started and he started to have discussions about the setup, and the way he responded to people and stuff I had the feeling he'd keep up with that kind of play the whole game, which is why I didn't find him suspicious. But having his play decay so fast is worrying, since it makes it seem his "townie early D1" feel was just a façade.
He seems to not care at all at the time of the lynch and after that (I've already posted about this on N1). He doesn't care about lynching Dropbear it seems, he's just there, asking some questions, blending in, doing shit and posting one-liners.
That lack of effort and care about the lynch is damning. I'm trying to think if I'm wrong and he could have done that as town but I don't see many possibilities, specially because of this:
I was at work, working. And refreshing the thread. I agree with you and gonzaw though I should have done more to get dropbear lynched but the way the wagon completely left me and formed up on him threw me and I was doubting myself, especially after last game where I just tunneled HiroPro and more or less cost town the game because of it.
That's the excuse he makes for his behaviour last day. That's no excuse to not care about the lynch. If he was actually at work refreshing the thread, it only means he doesn't have time to reread stuff (thread+filters), and think too much about things. That would actually indicate that his play should be more "reactive". As in, if he's constantly refreshing the thread, then his posts should be more of a reaction to what's posted each time he refreshes. As in, if someone votes Vivax or Dropbear he'd try to react to that, specially if the D1 lynch is at stake and he's just playing like I said he'd be playing. Even if he started to doubt Dropbear being scum (which he didn't show at all), at least he would have been more "anxious" and "nervous" considering the lynch wasn't decided until 3 minutes before the deadline. Any townie would be nervous by that point, specially if they were only paying attention to the thread by refreshing it constantly and not reading filters/etc.
I can't see him doing that as town.
Not only that, but his contributions from D2 are him either: -Just defending himself -Shitting on Mattchew
The lack of effort is damning as hell. He doesn't even try. Hell he hasn't even posted at all for 24 hours or so I think.
I find it more and more likely that he's scum knowing he was found and just not caring anymore. I get paranoid that he'd even act like this as town though, but hopefully is not the case.
tl;dr: Talis is scum unless I'm paranoid about him playing like shit as town.
About solstice I'm not really sure right now since him going against Risen seems legitimate for me, if I have time before leaving I'll reread him.
There seems that a lot of people are treading to a modkill and that's not good.
I'm leaving right at the deadline (I have to be in uni 30 minutes later), and I don't know if the flip will be "instantaneous" or not so I may not be around when tails flips, and I don't know when I'll come back (at most 3-4 hours from then, but I don't really know).
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On July 17 2012 06:06 Keirathi wrote: I feel like disappearing is more of a frustrated townie trait than a frustrated scum one.
That's what made me a little bit paranoid, but the thing is that there is almost no indication that he was frustrated.
Take for instance a town VE going to be misslynched where he ragequits in frustration (basically every time he's town ). He always makes an initial effort to change the lynch off him, he always tries to at least reason a little bit with the people accusing him; and if he finds his efforts futile, then he quits in frustration.
To quit in frustration it means you actually have to try to be frustrated in the first place, at least by justifying it in-game (if he's frustrated because his cat died and he sees everybody accusing him it would be another thing, but he hasn't said anything about it so I'll disregard it).
I can't see someone quitting in frustration if there is no reason to be so frustrated in the first place, and if the first thing you do is quit before even trying to change the tide of the game (i.e not getting lynched, or hoping to catch some scum even if you are) then you are not likely town at all since no townie would do that.
Also:
On July 16 2012 05:09 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 04:58 sciberbia wrote: Just woke up. I'm a little disappointed that my case for talis hasn't received more support. His defense was reasonable, but I still feel pretty strongly that he is scum.
@gonzaw What do you think of talis right now? Would you be happy lynching him today?
so... what still makes you think I'm scum?
On July 16 2012 05:29 talismania wrote: Actually, Dropbear what do you think of me now?
These don't look like posts from someone "ragequitting". He's asking people and supposedly expecting their answers, you don't "ragequit" before you even hear them or acknowledge them.
I don't see him quitting as "frustrated" at all.....but I'm paranoid that he's busy or some shit and doesn't care or something.
Hopefully (like I said) that's not the case, and there are other tiny bits that make me think talis is scum.
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So talis has 6 votes only, the minimum amount to lynch
If someone unvotes talis you better have a fucking good reason to, since you'll force NL.
Keirathi what are you planning to do? And will you answer those questions I presented to you? (I.e I want your thoughts on other issues, not just talis/sciberbia).
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Well damn, I wasn't expecting that.
Fuck I'm not too confident on this one right now, but it's either talis or NL.
Hmm, damn.
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On July 17 2012 06:51 Keirathi wrote: Bleh catch 22. Have to vote but I don't particularly feel good about the tali lynch. I don't think its impossible that he is scum, but I'm decently positive he's not.
I don't really think Drop or s0lstice are great cases either. So who the eff to vote for. My gut read on a throwaway vote, or the popular read with no conviction?!
Talis is already set to be lynched with 1 more vote than the minumum.
If you vote talis or not it won't have an impact unless someone unvotes him.
Hmm, I don't know since your vote won't have an impact on anybody else either.
talis, why didn't you care about the game at all ever since you started defending yourself about the plan?
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I'd say go with your own read if it won't matter, at least it will mean you
Mattchew, Risen: Are you scum?
Mattchew wtf those posts you make are so scummy at times. You park your vote on talis, go AFK for the rest of the day and now you show up all "confident" and still lacking words about anything else.
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EBWOP:
I'd say go with your own read if it won't matter, at least it will mean you actually think that person is scum and it would make it official (somehow). The only reason I could see for you to vote talis (if you are not convinced) is if you think there might be a mass-unvote to force NL and you don't want that
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Damn I dunno
Ehm...I think the time is over already, but I wouldn't like a NL but rather lynch Mattchew right now.
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There was a thing that made me think talis was scum that I decided to take a gamble on
If talis flips town, I don't really know if sciberbia is scum because of it....since he'd be pretty ballsy as fuck to lead the lynch like that. If talis flips scum, then no worries.
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LOL I actually thought sciberbia or someone got a scum check on him (as cop), but that may seem impossible since he's GF
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Mattchew D3 lynch I say (seemed like bus and you are scummy as fuck)
Risen could be, he hasn't done shit.
Solstice/Keirathi/Milton for trying to divert the lynch, although Keirathi's last posts seemed kind of townie, specially once he knew talis was already dead.
Milton could be?
Anyways good luck with that I'm leaving.
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On July 17 2012 07:04 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 07:03 gonzaw wrote: LOL I actually thought sciberbia or someone got a scum check on him (as cop), but that may seem impossible since he's GF Yea the thought crossed my mind too for why he was pushing so hard.
Maybe he actually is a cop but was actually Insane ? >_>
Anyways doesn't matter and I don't want to out sciberbia's role (so scib ignore this please).
Yep I can't see austin or sciberbia as scum right now.
Also dunno about Dropbear though
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On July 17 2012 08:21 sciberbia wrote:@gonzaw I have not considered all your setup discussion scummy as of yet, but now you're blatantly contradicting yourself. Seriously dude, wtf is with this? Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 00:31 gonzaw wrote: So Cops....check away, any Red check you get will be legit (no Miller claimed and you are guaranteed to be sane).
Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 07:05 gonzaw wrote: Maybe he actually is a cop but was actually Insane ? >_>
lol excuse me I didn't spend 5 minutes reading the OP again before making that question after I waited MORE than I should have (remember I said I was going away right at the deadline, yet I waited a little bit more) (also it was obviously a joke).
If you still think I'm "tali's scumbuddy" then post your actual suspicions (if they changed at all from yesterday). I hoped my contributions would confirm me as town, but well I can't have everything.
On July 17 2012 10:02 Mattchew wrote: The normally long winded Gonzaw gives no reasoning for why he thinks I bussed but is more than willing to put that idea out in the thread
This is the kind of stuff that makes me suspicious of you Matt.
"gonzaw gives no reasoning" fuck you Mattchew don't lie I wrote a Bible about you:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=41#818
You just didn't do shit today other than park your vote on talis based on his case on Dropbear being bad (and you only mentioned a little stuff about him not pushing Dropbear).
That's it you didn't do any other shit.
What's worrying (just like I found about talis) is that you didn't play like this AT ALL early D1.
Here, compare these posts:
On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit
On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak.
On July 12 2012 22:43 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 22:41 marvellosity wrote: Matt, while you're here - what do you make of gonzaw? He seems to be making stuff out of nothing, but it could just be provoking conversation.
I guess normally at the start of day 1 he has setup shit to ramble on about, which he does not here. he is trying really really hard, and once again he is explaining his entire thought process. I dont think i have ever seen him as scum, but this is the exactly how he plays as town
On July 13 2012 03:27 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:23 marvellosity wrote: What do you see in Vivax that makes you think he might be town? his effort and his not giving a fuck style
On July 13 2012 07:05 Mattchew wrote: Gonzaw I strongly (pun intended) believe the strong is town and I do not want to lynch him today. He says stupid stuff, like "Sorry bro, but that's kind of the nature of the game I guess - any post could be made either by scum or by town? " but he also posts about his gut reads, which while they can be faked, I don't think he did. I think gut reads are very townie
On July 14 2012 03:30 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 02:49 gonzaw wrote:On July 14 2012 02:43 Mattchew wrote:On July 13 2012 17:01 DropBear wrote:On July 13 2012 09:07 Vivax wrote:I'm not comfortable with a tali lynch. Comparing filters I found Miltonkrams filter to be fairly empty and he targetted the easy target. He posted 1. A list of his games to make himself available for a metacheck. 2. He comments on Talis plan being bad, and that being reason enough to be scummy. My impression of talis plan gone bad so far: It's a magnet for players with no/bad cases to have a reason to post something accusing. The downside is that it might have triggered policy discussion and a lot of chaos, while promising a lot of clarity by forcing players to take a hard stance, so talis plan was risky from a town perspective, and I'd leave it at that. He said it worked in bastard mafia, let's leave it at that: It won't be used here. 3. On July 13 2012 06:35 Miltonkram wrote: I don't find the fact that he came up with the plan scummy, I find the amount of time he's spent defending himself from the fallout of his plan scummy. I think he's spent 3 or 4 posts just defending himself.
Defending oneself isn't scummy. If it's really the only thing you do, then yes, but Milton already knows that it's not the only thing tali is doing: On July 13 2012 06:48 Miltonkram wrote: EBWOP: I didn't notice that talismania was actually putting a fair amount of pressure on austinmcc. I still find the amount of time he's spent talking about his proposal scummy, but he has put a small amount of pressure on players. still seems to firmly believe in a scum tali. He doesn't have any other reads. He comments on Keirathi and sciberbia being unreadable to him. I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense. I'll defend Milton for you He started late so hasn't posted as much. We knew that was happening before the games started. Your point 1 directly helps people get a read on him. This is extremely positive town play. In your point 2, you say how the plan allows pointless posting and how that doesn't help town, but then turn around and lambast Milton for pointing this out. Contradiction much? There is no real pressure from talismania on austin at all. Milton is right, talismania IS only defending the plan and not committing to accusations. Three reads is enough for day 1, no? Posting your read on every single person is just clutter. You should be less obvious in defending your buddy. SCUM TEAM
Vivax talismania gonzaw, scum don't usually do this. so i don't want to vote dropbear. Scum don't usually defend other guys and accuse people....? Could you be a little bit more specific? What about the rest of his posts? Scum don't usually defend people with good reasoning, like i think drop did. Also, he is aggressive and willing to take on the loudest person here (you) which means he's not afraid of the attention, another thing scum is unlikely to do
With these:
On July 16 2012 03:10 Mattchew wrote: Drop you should be voting Talis with me, what do you think makes solstice more scummy than Talis?
On July 16 2012 03:18 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 03:14 DropBear wrote:On July 16 2012 03:10 Mattchew wrote: Drop you should be voting Talis with me, what do you think makes solstice more scummy than Talis? In your case on tali you mention him having similar behaviour to gonzaw, but you haven't written a case on gonzaw. What differentiates them exactly? Some of it is good, yes. Tali is still dodgy to me but then tbh so are you. Mostly because I am unsure of gonzaw, and I can only vote/lynch 1 person today
On July 16 2012 05:42 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 03:43 talismania wrote: also wtf happened to your suspicions of sciberbia - what made you change your mind there? still suspicious, just sure of you, nice scummy deflection btw and risen, do you not agree with my case on Talis? What do you find wrong with it or townie about him
On July 16 2012 07:06 Mattchew wrote: S&B your thoughts on talis? I want him dead
Early D1 you were pro-town as fuck. Every time someone posted something "interesting" (tali's plan, S&B's post about marv) you commented on it.
You posted your reads on people without being asked if they conflicted reads from others, and you justified them.
You were active, but not only that you cared about what was happening since you were actively interacting with people regarding different matters, posting thoughts and stuff.
But later (after your D1 fiasco) you just parked your vote on talis, and spent 80% of your posts just going "what do you think of talis" or "vote talis" or "I want talis dead" or "talis talis talis". The difference is astonishing and I don't know why you changed your play like that in the same fucking game.
What about all the million of things we were talking about? About solstice, about sciberbia, about S&B, about Dropbear, etc ,etc? If this had been early-D1-Mattchew you would have commented on those issues and given a justified response, however D2-Mattchew would just go "lynch talis".
Talis' flip has nothing to do with your own play, you can easily bus him, place your vote on him and that's it (you weren't actively trying to get him lynched, since saying "look at my case lynch him" is not an active way to get people to vote for your scumread, hell it even slightly resembles what talis did on Dropbear).
For instance, compare all the shit sciberbia/austin wrote about talis each time and what you wrote and you can see the difference. "Bussing" scum is not a justification for not doing shit, and that's what I find odd
The fact that you find me suspicious and case doubt on me without saying shit about it (even when you found me town early D1) is concerning as well
Oh yeah I didn't even touch your D1 "blunder" but I already posted about it.
Right now you are not giving a fuck, and that makes me suspicious of you because you easily don't give a fuck as scum and because you did actually give a fuck early D1 yet your behaviour completely changed.
Pre-Edit: I'm still kind of torn since it's possible you just were content with how things were going on D2 and thus didn't see the need to do shit; but I still find it odd since that's not what you were doing in early D1 at all
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Hmm that last post of yours changes some things, you sound less derpy there.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=38#744
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=38#753
He made his case before and he spent all day actively discussing it, discussing other points about talis and about other potential lynch candidates and why he preferred talis lynched instead of them (he did this several times with S&B, you, and someone else I think), so I don't think you can take the credit like you are doing now.
"Wanting talis lynched" is no confirmation of you being town and you know it. You didn't actively push it but just asked people about it basically. I don't think anybody used your case alone as a basis to vote talis. I also think Dropbear mentioned some points about it before you, and like I said your case was just based around his accusation of Dropbear.
I'll consider it though. What made you have that chance in attitude from early D1 to now? Why didn't you talk about anything other than talis last day?
I don't think I ever flip-flopped on talis, I found him suspicious on N1, and when I started skimming the thread I didn't notice anything changing my mind, so I decide to address other issues I did have some trouble with (namely S&B, Risen, you, then Dropbaer, and solstice), by reading filters while I was reading the thread.
I'll try and reread Milton/solstice later, it's possible there's a scum there. I'm not too sure about Risen now since he made it 7 votes which made it impossible for a single guy to save talis (by unvoting). But well he HAD to vote or be modkilled so it's not that telling perhaps. I do think it gives S&B more cred, since he could have easily said "I don't buy the talis lynch let's lynch Dropbear" and disappear later while putting talis at 5, but he was the hammer.
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EBWOP:
That was at Mattchew
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Okay Mattchew, what are those "opinions" of yours now?
Reread D2 to find anything interesting to talk about. S&B, Milton/solstice/Keriathi slighly slightly pushing to NL instead of lynching talis (and their previous behaviour), etc.
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Most of your case is confirmation bias like this:
These two posts are where he drops suspicions on Austin, his strongest read from before. After posting a ton about him being scummy, his reasoning for him not thinking austin is scum is a small one liner. This looks more like scum admitting defeat on their attempt at a mislynch then town changing their mind, especially a town gonzaw (mind you we don't know austin's alignment)
..and basically a PBPA. Some of those things you mention I don't know why are even scummy at all.
Also I posted about talis on N1, if you thought I "didn't add anything to the talis lynch".
But okay, after I come back home I'll post a more cohesive defense.
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Seems I won't get shot tonight then.
If there is a medic/JK be on austin/sciberbia at all costs. Wifom about which one of them you protect. I wouldn't mind anybody else dying and flipping town to be honest (maybe you could WIFOM and protect Keriathi or Milton as well).
Also lol that "Milkton" thing is funny.
I understand why sciberbia may seem torn about it, it seems like "too much to be a coincidence". Hell I have "eureka" moments like that before as well and it hits me hard when I'm wrong (like when I thought Brownbear was scum in iGrok's game). Well....I don't know what to say about it I have no idea why talis said the same thing. I'll find it funny if I'm lynched just because of that
Mattchew your case seems to just nitpick little posts of mine and ignoring the whole picture. What about me trying to make sense about everybody in the fucking game in D2? Do you just disregard that by saying "didn't contribute to the talis lynch"? Because if "contributed to the talis lynch" is the epitome of towniness then it's quite a coincidence that's the only thing you did D2 (I do mean only)
I won't get ahead of myself though, I'll try to see if your intents are malicious or not later, but fucking hell they seem so right now to me.
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I knew I wouldn't die tonight, that doesn't make me "confirmed scum" Hmm, I don't know if I'll have the time before going to the gym of doing shit, since I'm working a little bit more on Bureaucracy mafia.
However, there is one thing you guys can do:
Read Mattchew's case, read my filter, and post if you agree that I'm scum or not (if you agree I guess you could vote me maybe)
Wait...
Was austin masoned with someone? If so...why didn't both CLAIM ON D1?????
I'm inclined to think there are either 3 or 1 masons and austin was on his own rather than they didn't choose to get 2 confirmed townies by D1 (I'd like to think of austin not as dumb as that >_> ) Hmm, still doesn't matter right now since they weren't misslynched or killed on N1.
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I'm not mason I didn't understand Risen's claim (whether he claims mason "masoned with" austin or mason itself....or something else I didn't notice).
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^I think there was a possibility of that in the C9++ wiki? If that doesn't happen here then disregard it.
Ehmm...even if there are 3 masons I don't get why they wouldn't claim on D1, but whatever
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Mattchew made that "case" against me and some people were starting to tingle with the idea of me being scum
On July 18 2012 08:05 s0Lstice wrote: austin said early in his filter that he didn't think roles other than miller should claim.
for the record, i think you're scum
##vote: gonzaw
Holy crap this bandwagon is worst than I thought. This post right here is so bad
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lol
Okay, I'll deal with this trainwreck once I come back from the gym and deal with Bureaucracy mafia.
I just have one request:
If you think I'm scum: Make a case against me. Don't do what Risen/Keirathi/solstice did and vote me without reasoning. You can see why this would help you even if I'm scum (I'm not).
I'm struggling to think how the hell this happened though, apart from Mattchew and sciberbia just having some "slight suspicious" (which basically boiled down to the "Milkton" thing and other little stuff...don't worry I'll address it when I come back) nobody ever had doubts about me or anything.
I'd like some order to be in place here, votes without explanation don't help anyone.
As I'd promised, I'll recheck solstice/Matthcew/Keriathi/Milton later, although I'm starting to go back to solstice/Mattchew as scum for now (Keriathi seems townie to me now, and Milton kind of, although I'm not too certain about it).
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On July 18 2012 08:10 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 08:08 gonzaw wrote:Mattchew made that "case" against me and some people were starting to tingle with the idea of me being scum On July 18 2012 08:05 s0Lstice wrote: austin said early in his filter that he didn't think roles other than miller should claim.
for the record, i think you're scum
##vote: gonzaw
Holy crap this bandwagon is worst than I thought. This post right here is so bad Are you just not reading the thread or just trying really really hard to make it seem like you aren't?
Yes I did, and I didn't understand shit of what happened
Okay, I'm not understanding anything here. Can someone please explain to me wtf happened right now? Risen said the mason should claim, then said that he wanted to claim but he didn't, then people took it like he already claimed (making me think he claimed mason) but that doesn't make sense with what he said earlier. Now I'm "confirmed scum" and if I'm scum Mattchew is scum as well (wtf?), and me not dying means solstice is confirmed town somehow.
You can see why I am confused as fuck over here. I'd like some explanation.
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Risen stop fooling around.
Did you check me or not? You claimed cop with check on S&B on N1, and what check on N2?
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Then why am I "confirmed scum"?
Anyways, I still think Mattchew is scum....hmm....don't really know about solstice right now (his reaction to Risen's "fault" in his claim seemed legit).
*sigh* Sorry but I'm tired as fuck and I'm not in the mood to do shit anymore, and I have to do other stuff I've been neglecting these past few days.
I'll try to come up with something tomorrow.
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On July 18 2012 22:17 s0Lstice wrote: We should also talk about the NK a bit. Austin has been playing pretty good town recently, so I don't think he was a terrible target for anyone as scum. Still though, I am having difficulty believing that scum Gonzaw would not try for either sciberbia or mattchew.
Mattchew especially, since he is a vet and good player overall. I would think the optimal play for scum Gonzaw would be to kill Matt and then WIFOM his way out of the increased guilt.
Anyone else thought about this at all?
Don't WIFOM about it. I specifically said austin/sciberbia were basically "confirmed townies" or something last post. If I was scum I'd shoot one of them and try to get a misslynch on Mattchew (as you think he's town).
Now that I think about it, nobody claimed RBed on N1 therefore scum could have known there wasn't a JK at all in this game, so they could kill austin or sciberbia as they pleased (I thought they'd kill sciberbia though...that was an odd choice, unless they banked on him leading the misslynch on me) Yeah, doesn't work in my favour but at least stop the WIFOM about it
About Risen's claim:
Hmm, the ONLY way I could see scum Risen fake-claiming like that, is if solstice is his scumbuddy. Risen's claim gave us a lot of info. Specifically, that if either of S&B or solstice are scum, then Risen HAS to be their scumbuddy.
If S&B is scum, Risen HAS to be scum If solstice is scum, Risen HAS to be scum.
If Risen was scum, I don't think he'd give us this info he gave us, since it takes away lots of doubt.
I'm thinking his claim is legit. We have 3 lynches to kill scum, meaning there will be 2 night kills in between. If Risen was scum with S&B/solstice, I don't really see scum not shooting one of them in these next 2 nights at all, and if Risen+solstice or Risen+S&B are the scumteams, it'd put a LOT of pressure on them once that doesn't happen and once they are still alive in LYLO.
Risens' reaction towards lynching me this day, then completely changing his mind and saying it was to see reactions, was weird, and I don't really know what to think of it. Hmm, it gives me a little bit more town feelings, since if Risen got a wagon on me so easily, I don't see why he'd want to stop it as scum, specially if later he says he actually thinks I'm town or something and opposes my lynch today (or prefers one on Keirathi).
Scum Risen does lots of crazy stuff so I maybe shouldn't consider him "confirmed town" by now >_>
This makes me more sure of S&B being town....but damn I guess solstice is town as well? I find that pill hard to swallow right now, but it's possible.
Hmm, I guess there's no harm in applying Occam's Razor and say all 3 of S&B/solstice/Risen are town without the need to lynch Risen or anything. If anything is wrong at all is that the scum team is Risen+solstice, but I think that's unlikely since Risen basically outed his own scumteam with this play of his (if that was the case).
About Milton's RB claim:
I do find it strange...the thing is that it's possible there is a RBer in this setup. We obviously don't have a JK, since nobody claimed RBed (therefore nobody claimed "jailed") on N1. Could have Milton's RB claim come from a town RBer?
If this was the case, then town would have 2 Masons, 1 Cop and 1 RBer. In C9++ and similar setups that's A LOT of blues. If this was the case then scum wouldn't have only 2 Goons remaining (I'll assume there are 2 scum remaining from now on). If this was the case as well, the Town RBer should have claimed by now to ease any doubts we had and so he could be a "confirmed town" (however because of the above I doubt this scenario is happening).
Therefore if Milton's claim is true, he was RBed by a scum RBer. ...and it's possible. If we take Risen's claim as true, then we have 2 Masons (I'll assume the remaining mason is Dropbear) and 1 Cop. Just by using the C9++ wiki page (yeah, these setups are different, but it's just as an example), that means we have CCMM, leaving TTT which is just 1 step above from Goon+Roleblocker+Godfather (if wbg changed the setup, he could have included that combination in the TTT one), so it's possible. It's also possible we have 2 Goons+Godfather though...since it's one step below the TTT's I just mentioned (and again, wbg could have changed the setup to reflect that scenario).
The thing is that scum not RBing someone on N1 could only happen basically if they wanted to hide their RBer. If they wanted to hide their RBer it would make more sense to hide it throughout the whole game. However if they wanted to incriminate Milton a little bit or something it's possible they could have RBed him (also in case they thought he was actually a blue, and they were desperate to stop any blue actions, but didn't want to blue-snipe since they had to kill other people first (like austin) ).
So that makes it null for me, it's possible he's fake-claiming RBed (for some reason, maybe just to confuse us or something?), but it's also possible a real scum RBer RBed him. So Risen, if you still think he's scum then I'd advise you to just read his filter and find out instead.
Pre-Edit: Oh wait, sciberbia claimed he might or might not be RBed Sciberbia, tell us now. If you were RBed, then since there isn't a JK (he didn't jail anyone on N1) that means the scum RBer RBed you last night, meaning MIlton is confirmed scum. Ehmm, actually...if scum RBed you last night they wouldn't have fake-claimed RBed themselves...so.... ...ehm I guess it proves there is a JK after all?
Then maybe something completely weird happened, like the JK forgetting to send an action on N1(like Sentinel did in LIII >_> ).
I don't know if not telling us if you were RBed or not would help scum too much. Scum already know if they have an RBer or not, and if they have they already know if they used him or not. If they used it on you, now they know 100% that there is a JK who jailed Milton (improbable but possible). If they DON'T have a RBer then know you are basically bluffing, since there would be too many blues yet they only have 2 Goons (which in their mind would mean it's very improbable wbg would make town so overpowered but scum so underpowered and unable to counter all those blue roles).
@Dropbear: I'll assume you are austin's mason by this point since you are the only one that hasn't claimed they weren't.
If the real mason hasn't claimed yet in fear of something, know that having a confirmed town by this point has greater benefits than trying to hide a little bit more so scum don't shoot you tonight, specially if you were going to be shot tonight anyways (if the mason is S&B or sciberbia and they didn't want to claim masons).
Well.....that was long, I'll get to make those defenses against sciberbia's and Mattchew's cases, after that I'll reread Keirathi's and Milton's filters, since by the previous assumptions (Risen tells the truth, Dropbear is mason) the remaining scum is in them. Based on these assumptions Mattchew is almost confirmed scum in my eyes, but hell I think he's scum not even using those assumptions at all.
I'm kind of wary of Risen being scum and pulling a stunt like this though, hell specially if he's scum with Milton for instance (Risen claims Cop, which makes us think "Wait, there are too many blues, shouldn't there be a scum RBer?", but then Milton claims RBed and we all say "Oh right, then there is a scum RBer, everything is fine"). Maybe it's me getting too paranoid though....and that rests on Mattchew being town, which I can't really see at the moment with his play from N1 onwards.
Actually fuck this:
##Vote: Mattchew
I already posted my thoughts on him previously here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=41#818 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=48#958
I think his intentions on FoSing me are malign. Just like in D2 he made a small "case", parked his vote on someone and does nothing else at all throughout the whole day.
It heavily reminds me of his play in MTG mafia, where he just said "kill Fulla" all throughout late-game and did nothing else at all.
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On July 19 2012 05:13 DropBear wrote: Hey everyone, I have had some personal shit come up, my brother is very sick. Going to be a bit sporadic in my posting the next day or so.
Tali's flip makes a few people look bad, gonzaw, keirathi, milton.
However, things at this point kind of hinge on whether or not Risen is telling the truth, or indeed if he is in fact sane.
Risen are you sure of your sanity?
1)Cops are guaranteed to be sane
2)Are you mason?
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On July 19 2012 05:25 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 05:20 gonzaw wrote:On July 19 2012 05:13 DropBear wrote: Hey everyone, I have had some personal shit come up, my brother is very sick. Going to be a bit sporadic in my posting the next day or so.
Tali's flip makes a few people look bad, gonzaw, keirathi, milton.
However, things at this point kind of hinge on whether or not Risen is telling the truth, or indeed if he is in fact sane.
Risen are you sure of your sanity?1)Cops are guaranteed to be sane 2)Are you mason? 1) I can't see this in the OP? Where am I supposed to be looking? 2) No.
1)Ehmm....I thought it was stated somewhere? >_>
2)Will the real mason please stand up? Please stand up?
Seriously, we'll get 1 confirmed town today and hopefully get 1 less suspect for the lynch, I don't get why a player that can be confirmed town won't claim mason.
At worst we'll 100% know he's town and therefore we can 100% trust his reads and thougths. That will mean people can't cast doubt on him or anything and he could be a leader for town while he's alive.
Anyways, Dropbear isn't mason...so he's still a suspect then.
Hmm....Mattchew+Dropbear would make sense, although I got some townie feels from Dropbear before.
Anyways....I have to go away right now so I still don't have time for that defense >_>
In the meantime, I'd like people to read those posts I made and post their thoughts on Mattchew
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On July 19 2012 06:29 Risen wrote: Gonzaw why are you voting Mattchew here? Who do you think his partner is? I think keir has been acting way more scummy than mattchew. If Matt is playing his #1 townie style I don't see why we aren't lynch keir. Btw, that's the only way I see Matt as scum is if he's playing as his pro townie self, dude is ruthless and probably why I don't trust him. Also yeah it's just a meta read Matt :/
Could be any of Dropbear/Keirathi/MIlton
I get the feeling Keirathi is town so it's either Dropbear or Milton. I haven't checked them yet and some stuff may seem "senseless" if one or the other are scum, but I haven't had time to check.
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I'm not neglecting that possibility.
Your checks aren't confirmed town if you flip scum, but they are confirmed town if they claim mason
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Defense to sciberbia's case:
On July 19 2012 00:29 sciberbia wrote: gonzaw
My suspicions are kinda broken up over two previous posts and this one. To recap, here are reasons why I was suspicious of gonzaw after N1: -- has not actually contributed all that much to lynching scum
I think what I posted on N1 and late-D2 sufficed. I also was actually trying to find scum somewhere else (in Risen, Mattchew, Keirathi, Milton, etc) and figure out their alignments. Read below (on "Defense to Mattchew's case") for more info.
-- I feel like he's been buddying me
I can't deny this. You are very apparent town and your posts make sense. "Buddying" has negative connotations though, so just take from it the above.
-- he contradicted himself on one of keirathi's posts
I don't remember this, but nevermind.
-- marv died N1
Thank god I'm not Radfield if not that would have sufficed
-- he repeatedly said D1 was shitty
It was, up until 5 hours from the lynch there was 0 consolidation on any target, and that Vivax wagon was pretty bad.
-- he tried to get Mattchew lynched off what IMO is just not a scumtell (Mattchew's disappearence)
Read my posts, there's more than that, although that certainly raises a red flag
-- the 'milkton' possible scumslip
lol that was funny
-- talis gives some bad reasons for a townread on gonzaw D1
I can't speak for tali here.
-- talis's reads seem like they were sheeped off gonzaw
I'd argue that scumbuddies rarely show this kind of "support". I.e they rarely call each other town and sheep all their reads, they most likely bus or at least distance themselves.
Here are further reasons I have to be suspicious of gonzaw for D2 and N2.
I think austin as the NK is minor evidence against gonzaw I explained this in my last post
Fair point, but it only works if you assume I'm scum. Also I think I would have shot you instead if I was scum, not austin (you were more apparent townie, made more sense, and actually planned on lynching me), since I would have figured out there wasn't a JK since nobody claimed RBed on N1.
gonzaw seemed a bit slow to get on board with the talis lynch I think Mattchew talked about this in his case during N2.
Read below on "Defense to Mattchew's case"
Gonzaw made a small case against talis during N1. Within the first 12-18 hours of D2, Mattchew and I posted cases against talis, both of us confident that he was scum, and we both voted him.
I think it was pretty clear that talis was the primary candidate for lynch at that point. But gonzaw didn't really address talis for quite a while, even though I explicitly asked him twice.
Again read below.
I think I should point out one thing: I never tried to push any other lynch, nor tried to stop the talis lynch at all. I'd make the argument that if I was scum I'd try to do one of those, or just straight up bus him since the beginning.
*quotes from sciberbia and me*
I thought I was pretty clear there, I didn't even finished reading the thread, so I didn't even read half the cases made against talis there or the responses from talis himself.
If gonzaw is town, I'd have expected him to be a lot more enthusiastic about the talis lynch. He posted significant suspicions of talis during N1. Then Mattchew and I post very confident (I think persuasive) cases on talis at the beginning of D2.
Whereas if gonzaw is scum, I can see him being rattled by so much suspicion on his godfather, and by the fact that I called out a possible talis + gonzaw scumteam. Which might explain why he didn't seem quite on point, as Mattchew pointed out.
His D2 play definitely felt different than his D1 play. I guess it's possible he was just disturbed by fatigue and the fact that he seemed to be losing thread control, but his prancing around the talis issue doesn't bode too well for him.
I was pretty fatigued, and there was a lot of work to do. I had to read like 10 pages or so and reread each persons filters and shit.
You have to take into account that I ended N1 without "heavy" scum reads, just that I suddenly started to find talis suspicious because of his behaviour the other night, realized Mattchew was scummy as fuck, and was pretty troubled by S&B who I thought was scum by that point (but then figured out he could have been town all along). I was also not too sure on Keirathi by that point, someone I thought was scum on D1. I needed a lot to catch up to, and to reread the thread/filters a lot to make up my mind. As I started to see more and more people seemed pretty townie (austin, S&B, sciberbia, Keirathi and Milton to an extent) I grew more comfortable with the talis lynch as I was reading the thread, up to the point where I just voted him since I doubted I would change my mind even after rereading his filter (which I had not done by that point).
Gonzaw's accusations of talis D2 felt misplacedShortly before the deadline, gonzaw made two rather sizeable posts against talis. One with general accusations and then one reassuring people that talis's absence implicates him as scum. + Show Spoiler +On July 17 2012 06:05 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:04 Keirathi wrote: Also @sciberbia: why am I not your top candidate anymore? You repeatedly stated at the end of Day1 that I was your biggest scum read, but you were going to consolidate onto Vivax just to avoid the no-lynch, which is fine.
But by this point, I had already done all the "towntelling" things that you give matt poins for pointing out in your Matt defense post.
What happened to change your mind when I really didn't do anything during the night and was out of town for basically the entire day? Can you comment on other issues? What about solstice, S&B, Mattchew, Risen, and all the stuff that was discussed about them? Of course who you want to lynch is a very important one (I'd like sciberbia to answer that though, doesn't hurt anybody) About talis:Before his "plan", I actually found him kind of town. He posted that graph of posts from all his last 5 games to "check his meta", and well that seems like a lot of effort (don't know if he did it in pre-game though). Plus the tone of some of the things he said and just a little gut feeling of the way he interacted with people made me think he was town at that point (and I get a little townie feels right now, although I don't know if I should take them into account or not). Hmm, the "plan" itself didn't seem scummy in my mind. It did spark some discussion, and to be honest I didn't really see the plan as "the most anti-town thing" in the way that I could see him posting it as town. His "gauging reactions" is null basically. The thing is that from that point onwards his play totally decays. He spends way too much time talking about the validity of his "plan", and spends way too much time just prodding Dropbear with the same stuff (Dropbear insta-voting Vivax). After that he doesn't seem to care in my mind. Responding to unrelated stuff he never follows (like telling marv about his "nice shit" on solstice, telling Risen to post his thoughts about what I said of him), having an "I don't care" attitude (when he posts thoughts about Milton and austin for instance, and the tone of his posts) and even having that attitude with his reads (like the ones in the post where he voted Dropbear) give me that feeling. The thing about his play decaying is that it didn't seem like he'd play like that at all once the game started. Once the game started and he started to have discussions about the setup, and the way he responded to people and stuff I had the feeling he'd keep up with that kind of play the whole game, which is why I didn't find him suspicious. But having his play decay so fast is worrying, since it makes it seem his "townie early D1" feel was just a façade. He seems to not care at all at the time of the lynch and after that (I've already posted about this on N1). He doesn't care about lynching Dropbear it seems, he's just there, asking some questions, blending in, doing shit and posting one-liners. That lack of effort and care about the lynch is damning. I'm trying to think if I'm wrong and he could have done that as town but I don't see many possibilities, specially because of this: Show nested quote +I was at work, working. And refreshing the thread. I agree with you and gonzaw though I should have done more to get dropbear lynched but the way the wagon completely left me and formed up on him threw me and I was doubting myself, especially after last game where I just tunneled HiroPro and more or less cost town the game because of it. That's the excuse he makes for his behaviour last day. That's no excuse to not care about the lynch. If he was actually at work refreshing the thread, it only means he doesn't have time to reread stuff (thread+filters), and think too much about things. That would actually indicate that his play should be more "reactive". As in, if he's constantly refreshing the thread, then his posts should be more of a reaction to what's posted each time he refreshes. As in, if someone votes Vivax or Dropbear he'd try to react to that, specially if the D1 lynch is at stake and he's just playing like I said he'd be playing. Even if he started to doubt Dropbear being scum (which he didn't show at all), at least he would have been more "anxious" and "nervous" considering the lynch wasn't decided until 3 minutes before the deadline. Any townie would be nervous by that point, specially if they were only paying attention to the thread by refreshing it constantly and not reading filters/etc. I can't see him doing that as town. Not only that, but his contributions from D2 are him either: -Just defending himself -Shitting on Mattchew The lack of effort is damning as hell. He doesn't even try. Hell he hasn't even posted at all for 24 hours or so I think. I find it more and more likely that he's scum knowing he was found and just not caring anymore. I get paranoid that he'd even act like this as town though, but hopefully is not the case. tl;dr: Talis is scum unless I'm paranoid about him playing like shit as town.
About solstice I'm not really sure right now since him going against Risen seems legitimate for me, if I have time before leaving I'll reread him. There seems that a lot of people are treading to a modkill and that's not good.
I'm leaving right at the deadline (I have to be in uni 30 minutes later), and I don't know if the flip will be "instantaneous" or not so I may not be around when tails flips, and I don't know when I'll come back (at most 3-4 hours from then, but I don't really know). + Show Spoiler +On July 17 2012 06:15 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 06:06 Keirathi wrote: I feel like disappearing is more of a frustrated townie trait than a frustrated scum one. That's what made me a little bit paranoid, but the thing is that there is almost no indication that he was frustrated. Take for instance a town VE going to be misslynched where he ragequits in frustration (basically every time he's town ). He always makes an initial effort to change the lynch off him, he always tries to at least reason a little bit with the people accusing him; and if he finds his efforts futile, then he quits in frustration. To quit in frustration it means you actually have to try to be frustrated in the first place, at least by justifying it in-game (if he's frustrated because his cat died and he sees everybody accusing him it would be another thing, but he hasn't said anything about it so I'll disregard it). I can't see someone quitting in frustration if there is no reason to be so frustrated in the first place, and if the first thing you do is quit before even trying to change the tide of the game (i.e not getting lynched, or hoping to catch some scum even if you are) then you are not likely town at all since no townie would do that. Also: Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 05:09 talismania wrote:On July 16 2012 04:58 sciberbia wrote: Just woke up. I'm a little disappointed that my case for talis hasn't received more support. His defense was reasonable, but I still feel pretty strongly that he is scum.
@gonzaw What do you think of talis right now? Would you be happy lynching him today?
so... what still makes you think I'm scum? Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 05:29 talismania wrote: Actually, Dropbear what do you think of me now? These don't look like posts from someone "ragequitting". He's asking people and supposedly expecting their answers, you don't "ragequit" before you even hear them or acknowledge them. I don't see him quitting as "frustrated" at all.....but I'm paranoid that he's busy or some shit and doesn't care or something. Hopefully (like I said) that's not the case, and there are other tiny bits that make me think talis is scum. These were posted like an hour before the deadline. IMO, it was already abundantly clear that talis was going to be lynched. So these large posts accusing talis feel kinda unnecessary. I could see them from a town gonzaw but they do feel like a bus.
Ehmm...Keirathi was subtly implying he wanted a NL at that point, surely convincing him not to NL would work in my favour...?
I did notice solstive, Milton and Keirathi starting to get uncomfortable with the talis lynch and greatly implying they wanted a NL. I didn't want a NL, and I wanted a talis lynch, so I assured them of that.
Of course then tali posted the "I broke my wrist which was why I couldn't post" which panicked me a little bit and made me reconsider NL (I think I remember you doing the same sciberbia >_> ), but nah there was no chance I'd choose NL at that point.
wishy/washiness after D1 (or at least changes his mind a hell of a lot)Honestly by D3 I'd expect a player like gonzaw to have said "Player X is very likely scum. I demand that we lynch him." But he has seemed uncharacteristically wishy/washy since N1. His filter is quite long, but here are some examples: wishy/washiness on Mattchew: + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 12:39 gonzaw wrote: This is just too much. I had him as townie in early game but I can't believe a town Mattchew would do something like this, unless he was somehow hospitalized right after he made that post or something. Damn, I really thought he was town wtf is going on? :/
On July 15 2012 09:50 gonzaw wrote: I expect some serious explanation from Mattchew. Like, I thought he was town but what you did made no fucking sense I'm contemplating lynching you just because of it (specially since you went AFK all night just to make a stupid drunk post as well).
On July 16 2012 06:28 gonzaw wrote: I see Mattchew just came right off the bat with a case and a vote...and I don't know if I like that (I didn't see him explaining wtf he did last day).
On July 16 2012 06:53 gonzaw wrote:
I'm torn because his earlier posts did seem townie, but that behaviour of his strikes some doubt (specially if it wasn't for some outside reason, like getting his internet connection cut or something). I'll try to drop the subject before reading this thread and his case on talis; but this is basically exclusive since it's about his earlier behaviour.
On July 16 2012 07:04 gonzaw wrote: I'm talking about the action itself and how it isn't a "town tell" coming from Mattchew. I said I'm reading the thread later (I'm not actually seriously accusing him right now, at least not before reading his other posts), I just want a (justified) explanation for that previous behaviour of his (you can't tell me it wasn't odd as fuck, everybody noticed it).
I already talked about his posting before his "derp", although I skimmed his posts afterwards (from this D2) and they aren't that "townie" as his first ones. On July 16 2012 11:45 gonzaw wrote: About Mattchew: I may agree with his case on talis (need to filter talis first), but after that he doesn't really do a good job of explaining himself (about his behaviour or why he thinks I'm scum). I don't like how he's casting suspicion on me right now either, yet refuses to say anything about me or why he changed his town read on me.
However, I could see town Mattchew just not caring about his D1 fluke and thinking I'm shitting up the thread about it (thus making him a little bit more suspicious of me), but those reasons above don't make me confident in thinking he's town at all, specially since I know Mattchew is capable of doing that "fluke" as scum just to skate by D1, whether other people find it scummy or not (he wouldn't really care as scum).
This is why I'm torn on him, and why I wanted that explanation from him. I would also like an explanation on what he thinks of sciberbia ever since early-D1 and why he changed his mind on me (him not responding these strike me as suspicious as well, since again I can easily see scum Mattchew just not caring about it at this point).
He had a good start that made me think he was town but some of his actions and behaviour made me doubt that (since scum Matthew could have just tried to appear pro-town on early-D1 like that)
On July 17 2012 06:55 gonzaw wrote: Mattchew wtf those posts you make are so scummy at times. You park your vote on talis, go AFK for the rest of the day and now you show up all "confident" and still lacking words about anything else. On July 17 2012 07:01 gonzaw wrote: Damn I dunno
Ehm...I think the time is over already, but I wouldn't like a NL but rather lynch Mattchew right now. On July 17 2012 07:04 gonzaw wrote: Mattchew D3 lynch I say (seemed like bus and you are scummy as fuck)
on strongandbig: + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 13:32 gonzaw wrote: About S&B:
I want to lynch this guy tomorrow.
...
Scummy as fuck.
..
Like, he seems too scummy and nothing like his play in MTG (he was more active in discussion there, his posts made more sense, he wasn't this "trollish" and he didn't just post out of nowhere with random stuff?and didn't care about the current discussion, at least not when he was active).
I could see him posting some stuff as town (like asking me about why I'm "not caring" about the setup, flip-flopping on his solstice read in that post seems like he was a townie changing his mind quickly, him backing off keiarth), but his attitude and content convince me otherwise.
On July 15 2012 06:10 gonzaw wrote: Agh fuck this I can't shake that feeling from the other game and maybe you are genuinely frustrated at me with that vendetta of yours. If you are town please calm down and put more effort.
On July 16 2012 06:28 gonzaw wrote: Skimming the thread, I got a weird feeling of solstice going against S&B, but that's maybe because I got a change of mind about S&B and wanted to give him a little break.
on Risen + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 07:13 gonzaw wrote: Hmm, I'm getting the feeling you are town Risen, you are too invested in the game and really care about the lynch, and you are very active at it and act too "cool" around it. Don't know what Vivax was saying about you being scum, might need to reread.
On July 14 2012 13:02 gonzaw wrote: It does seem like you are over-enthusiastic townie instead of scum (because scum rarely do what you did and try to take complete control of D1 and be active as shit), but hey!, after your LIII game I won't take any chances with you, and it's possible you'll do this as scum.
On July 17 2012 07:04 gonzaw wrote: Mattchew D3 lynch I say (seemed like bus and you are scummy as fuck)
Risen could be, he hasn't done shit.
Maybe not so much on Risen. But it's at least fair to say he hasn't taken a hard stance one way or the other. He doesn't strongly accuse anyone at all until his "YOU ARE SCUM" post on talis an hour before the deadline. He seems neutralish on keirathi/miltonkram. He leans town on dropbear. He says he thinks s0Lstice is scum, but I don't see a whole lot of reasoning on s0Lstice.
I didn't really have the time to reread solstice filter >_> (I still don't, I don't think I've read it by now).
I was not wishy washy about S&B, I explicitly said I thought he was town later.
Yes some of my other reads may seem "wishy-washy", but I didn't think that would be a problem if I expressed my whole thought process (for instance on Risen or Mattchew)
Reaction at beginning of D3 His reaction to the cop claim is kinda fishy. He asks, "Did you check me or not?", which sounds like a mafia talking. He also keeps his options open by disappearing for a little while (or maybe he is just busy).
I didn't know what to think of Risen by that point (specially since I thought he claimed mason >_>), I didn't know if he checked me or not so I didn't know if I had to consider him "confirmed mafia" from my POV or not. I was actually thinking something like "Wait...then Risen is scum? Like confirmed scum?...really? Well lol what a surprise" or something like that when it was implied (or said I don't remember) that he checked me last night.
IN CONCLUSION I think gonzaw is our best lynch today. It's reassuring that Mattchew and strongandbig seem to think so as well. Still, I'm not as sure about him as I was about talismania. I wouldn't be that surprised if he is town. So I'm going to withhold my vote for now. My next strongest scumread after gonzaw would probably be s0Lstice right now (maybe keirathi), but s0Lstice was cleared by Risen so I don't think I'd feel good about lynching him today. I think I'll end up voting gonzaw, but I want to see him make some posts first.
@gonzaw Please make a case against your top scumread. During D2 you said you thought s0Lstice was scum but I don't see a case against him. Do you still think s0Lstice is scum? What about Mattchew?
I didn't have time to reread solstice filters, but Risens claim can only make solstice scum if Risen is scum. (I'll restate, I haven't reread his filter yet) also some of his responses today seemed kind of genuine. If he was scum then Risen had to be scum....yet his reaction to Risen's claim doesn't seem planned (if both were scum they would HAVE to be planned). Like, Risen calls me scum and "claims" cop (I don't know where the hell he claimed to be honest), then solstice votes me without saying a word calling me "scum" and shit, then he starts doubting Risen's claim about how he checked S&B N1 and stuff and unvotes me, and then Risen claims he didn't have a scum check on me.
I seriously doubt they'd make such a weird play as scum....since wtf did it produce? Like it would need HEAVY amounts of planning for no reward at all (unless again, they planned on someone noticing this and thinking they are town because it didn't make sense). Plus it would mean Mattchew is town, which I doubt at this point.
Defense to Mattchew's case:
On July 18 2012 04:11 Mattchew wrote: I think Gonzaw is scum. I think a lot of people are taken back by how much he posts and use that effort to determine his alignment and I think they are wrong
I agree that effort shouldn't really be taken into consideration alone considering me.But you have to take into account what I spend that effort on Do I spend lots of effort in just posting fluff and tunneling one guy throughout the whole game or something? Or do I spend lots of effort trying to figure out the alignment of people, and try to have some order and get people's opinions and such?
You can't just say "ignore his effort".
Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote:So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: On July 12 2012 07:56 Risen wrote: Welcome to ICBINTMM in which Risen does not post in caps or call anyone an idiot THE ENTIRE GAME. Stay tuned to see if this actually happens...... On July 12 2012 07:33 strongandbig wrote: sup bros i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room. Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated On July 12 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote: alight lets do this.
no zentor means no policy lynch based on names for me. You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: On July 12 2012 08:05 austinmcc wrote: Screw the number and size of posts. I'm not a scientist, but it looks like talismania's been town --> scum --> town --> scum --> town. Therefore, he's scum this game.
I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls. But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. This is his first attempt at scum hunting. It is lazy and general, making "cases" on multiple people and trying to shift conversation onto those who haven't posted much instead of actually reading into the people that have posted actively at that point in the game. He is basically saying lets lynch the lurkers, something in the Policy lynching thread he said would lead to town losses + Show Spoiler +On June 07 2012 15:42 gonzaw wrote: The thing is that when policy lynches haven't been enforced yet in previous games, starting to enforce them in a specific game creates a shitstorm and would most likely murder that game.
Imagine that a certain game starts, and everybody decides to policy lynch lurkers. So you lynch your 1st lurker on D1. He would be most likely town, but no worries, you think everybody else will stop lurking by now and we solve the problem right? Wrong, players that lurked until then will keep lurking (or being inactive for stuff from real life), and you'll keep policy lynching them throughout the game, most likely earning scum a win and making the game boring as hell.
Yes, if many games enforced a "lurkers" policy lynch, then the more time goes on the larger the probability of there being fewer and fewer lurkers in games. However that comes with the cost of maybe making each game it's implemented a total chaos, and those (specially town) that play those games want to win them, and they know that by just policy lynching lurkers that isn't achieved so there's less incentive to enforce them.
That was the "Lynch lurkers" policy, if you do the "Lynch blue claims" policy you'll do the same thing since blue claims will still start showing up (hi VE!) and you'll still end up lynching them and them flipping blue, again making the games more boring and shittier for town (or for scum if they wanted to make an epic play or something).
It's like being fat and starting to diet and exercise. You know it's good in the long run, but as soon as you start it you hate it because it ruins everything to you in the present and makes things uncomfortable.
So, is TL Mafia willing to drop weight or not? Maybe someone can spare a liposuction so we avoid this altogether >_>.
That was not my purpose, my purpose was to..
On July 12 2012 10:44 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote:On July 12 2012 10:34 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 10:00 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote: Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early. Thank you captain obvious. Instead of posting tautologies, do you have an opinion on said subject? (i.e do you think I'm extremely eager townie or do you think I'm scum looking for easy targets to push?) In hindsight this came out more aggressive than I meant it :/ It's cool. It's nothing compared to what I handled from igrok my last game. Anywho, I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. He wasn't pushing lurkers he was pushing people that posted that sounded excited to participate and post and then didn't.
Oh looks like someone took the words out of my mouth.....oh wait it was you who said that.
Okay, being serious here, you can't accuse me of doing something that both me and you acknowledged differently before.
It wasn't "lynch lurkers", it was "lynch guys that were active, seemed eager to post but then went completely inactive ignoring everything in the thread".
The only thing being talked about by that point was the talis plan and how it sucked, so I decided to bring some more discussion going on to speed things up. Even you said you "liked my effort" about it, and even you said it made you think I was town
Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:51 gonzaw wrote: Well....okay I don't know what else to say? I found you guys suspicious because of that, so unless someone thinks Vivax+solstice+sciberbia+talis+keirtaht could be scum one of you HAS to be scum basically (even based on numbers alone)
Anyone see a name that sticks out in this post? Again with lazy scum hunting equivicating effort in the thread to alignment something he SAYS Show nested quote +But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) So heres a nice lumping of a scum player into a group of names while contradicting himself
I don't get this...? What's actually scummy about what I just said there? I had some town reads, and scum guys (you 3) who were not those town reads, and I also found suspicious because of that "post but never come back" behaviour. I also found austin suspicious because of that post of his....what contradiction are you talking about? Actually don't answer that, there's no contradiction, and if there is one it still doesn't mean I'm scum
Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 12:16 gonzaw wrote: Hmm, I'm thinking about switching my vote to either Dropbear or Keirath.
Dropbear tried to act all "tough" and shit but I get the impression he only tried to spout as many stuff as he could about plans/etc and trying to create some chaos by accusing people or discrediting plans/accusations.
His vote on Vivax is a joke (some people already went over this), and he hasn't done anything that makes me think he actually cares about town discussion, his posts just seem to appear like he's there doing something since he's so aggressive about it, but nothing else.
I get the feeling Keirath is more likely scum. Like Matt said his reads seemed "forced", in the way that they weren't much reads at all. At least S&B's read, where Kei calls him suspicious but townie at the same time (and calls him suspicious for some bad reasons I think). He seems fixated on "meta" somehow, thinking all of us are using "meta" to catch scum (we are not). His defense of Milkton seemed out of place as well (like it came out of nowhere and he defended him just because of "meta" again, hell I don't even know why he's defending him).
Like said before his posts are too verbose, but trying to blend in IMO. He also spends quite time just defending himself which I don't particularly like (he could have been pushing for other reads at that time).
Let's go with this, but I'd be happy with a switch on Dropbear to be honest (hmm, I think S&B could be scum as well, but I'll wait till he comes back)
##Unvote: austinmcc ##Vote: Keirath Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 12:29 gonzaw wrote:On July 13 2012 12:07 sciberbia wrote: @gonzaw Go reread everything austin wrote on Risen. I think you are overly suspicious as a result of misreading austin's posts. Marv and austin pointed this out, but your vote is still on austin. Do you still think he is the best lynch?
My bad, I just noticed it. The thing is that it's like he thought Risen was town even in that 1st post of his, but maybe it's his own weird way of being suspicious Hmm, okay, I think I'll let austin slide, it does seem he posts like this when he's town, and him being a noob could explain him being all over talismania for something irrelevant. These two posts are where he drops suspicions on Austin, his strongest read from before. After posting a ton about him being scummy, his reasoning for him not thinking austin is scum is a small one liner. This looks more like scum admitting defeat on their attempt at a mislynch then town changing their mind, especially a town gonzaw (mind you we don't know austin's alignment)
Yes, I posted tons about austin, thought he was scummy. sciberbia or someone else made a gigantic post with quotes from his play in another game he was town, and that convinced me not to push his lynch furteher. Not only that, I was suspicious of austin because I thought he was thinking Risen was town since the beginning yet wasted effort in searching his filter, but marv and scib told me I was misunderstanding him. The fact that I was wrong about that, and the fact that austin's "verbose posts" are part of his town meta discouraged me of pushing him further.
An no, the bolded part is still confirmation bias.
Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:54 gonzaw wrote:This is fucking balls, I don't want a NL at all costs, but I doubt Dropbear will get more votes I kind of want to lynch S&B to be honest, I've skimmed these last few pages and he just wasn't active in conversations at all even when active and just posted ARg fucking hell On July 14 2012 06:50 Risen wrote: Gonzaw comes in with a scummy as shit post trying to save Viv, but it's not looking likely!
Vivax 6, DropBear 5! THIS IS IT FOLKS! And you get off my fucking back this is not easy, I have to blindly vote one of those 2 without even reading what they posted Well fuck this shit if Vivax flips town it should be a monument of how shitty this day seems ##Unvote: Dropbear ##Vote: Vivax This is gonzaw's vote on Vivax day 1. This is not as telling of his alignment as many of the other things but it still is questionable. He has what he believes are 3 solid scum reads, Keithrathi, S&B, and Dropbear, yet votes someone else just for the sake of having a lynch. I can't tell if this was irresponsible or scummy
Here:
On July 14 2012 06:49 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:44 marvellosity wrote:On July 14 2012 06:42 gonzaw wrote:On July 14 2012 06:39 marvellosity wrote: There's 20 minutes to deadline and you make a fucking post asking taht when you can just read the OP? Get a grip
It's majority It stoke me some doubt since Risen was all "vote Vivax/Dropbear" which made me think it may have been a plurality lynch. If it's majority then sorry to tell you but we'll NL if things keep up like this. Yes AND YOU HAVEN'T VOTED What's wrong with you??? What the hell is wrong with you marv? Get off my back and stop nitpicking everything I say. I already voted Keirathi. Shit I don't have time to read the thread, I just skimmed and saw some posts from Vivax and at least he seemed active (didn't read its content), but Dropbear isn't even here. Fuck it I hate majority lynches, but here it goes: ##Unvote: Keirathi ##Vote: DropbearHopefully I reread the thread quickly before the lynch but I doubt it. .
I did vote Dropbear, and I wanted him lynched instead of Vivax. You can see the time there: 06:54 That was 6 minutes before the deadline, when Vivax had only 6 votes and Dropbear 5. If I hadn't switched there was going to be a no-lynch, since nobody changed their vote to Dropbear at all. I did that to avoid the NL, and the stress of that and the cases from other people had started to cloud my judgment where I started doubting my town read on Vivax saying to myself "Maybe he is scum". I also didn't have time to read the thread at all, so I didn't even know what Vivax posted or what Dropbear posted, so I couldn't do shit but either "lynch this guy" or "force NL".
Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 08:11 gonzaw wrote:On July 14 2012 07:48 strongandbig wrote: gonzaw when do you not want to lynch me, srsly. How about the whole D3 of MTG Mafia? I don't get why you are so hung up on this, I haven't even "tunneled" you nor even voted for you for christ sake, but every time I talk about you you pull out the "Oh gonzaw is FoSing me of course he is" card. This isn't a lie per-say but he has been pushing for his lynch for a while. He even said right after Vivax flipped that he REALLY wanted to lynch S&B, which is either a lie or a vote (just not techinically) Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 06:28 gonzaw wrote: Okay got back.
Skimming the thread, I got a weird feeling of solstice going against S&B, but that's maybe because I got a change of mind about S&B and wanted to give him a little break.
I see Mattchew just came right off the bat with a case and a vote...and I don't know if I like that (I didn't see him explaining wtf he did last day).
Anyways, gonna sort some stuff here in my house, do stuff for the other mafia game I'm playing, and get back here.
Dunno about talis yet, I'm having some difficulty trying to figure out the whole tails/Dropbear/solstice situation; but I'll make sure to read on that. This is the first post Gonzaw makes after me and scib make our cases and talis makes his awful responses to them. He then follows that post up with all of this discussion of where I was during the day 1 lynch, instead of talking about Talis (who he even supposidly found suspicious the night before. Why isn't he focused on the scum hunting going on in the thread instead of a mattchew whereabouts witchhunt + Show Spoiler +On July 16 2012 06:42 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote:On July 16 2012 06:28 gonzaw wrote: Okay got back.
Skimming the thread, I got a weird feeling of solstice going against S&B, but that's maybe because I got a change of mind about S&B and wanted to give him a little break.
I see Mattchew just came right off the bat with a case and a vote...and I don't know if I like that (I didn't see him explaining wtf he did last day).
Anyways, gonna sort some stuff here in my house, do stuff for the other mafia game I'm playing, and get back here.
Dunno about talis yet, I'm having some difficulty trying to figure out the whole tails/Dropbear/solstice situation; but I'll make sure to read on that. No explaination, wasn't around Yes you were, don't lie: On July 16 2012 06:49 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 06:45 Mattchew wrote: So I couldn't have left 2 hours before the lynch? I wasn't voting Vivax, and my questions werent answered before I had left. Not without explaining why you kept your vote on sciberbia (if you knew you weren't going to be back before the deadline) ro explaining anything at all or if you still thought sciberbia was scum. Or anything at all basically. People not giving you an exact vote count isn't an excuse to waste your vote, leave the thread and come back 24 hours later without giving a shit about the lynch. On July 16 2012 06:53 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 06:48 sciberbia wrote: "Heh heh heh. Town is trying to lynch one of us three scum: mattchew, talis, and gonzaw. How can I throw them off track? Oh I know! I'll leave my vote on sciberbia and mysteriously dissapear. Without my vote, there is no way they'll get a scum. Heh heh heh. I am the brilliant scum mastermind, Mattchew. And there's no way anyone will find my disapearence suspicious"
It's just ridiculous. His disappearing is a busytell, not a scumtell. If Mattchew was scum, how hard would it have been to just hang around and sheep marv's vote? Not that hard. Being around for the lynch but not doing anything (i.e. talis) is more suspicious than not being there at all. Mattchew did very similar stuff in MTG. He went AFK for the WHOLE D1 and he didn't give a fuck about being called out. Him being afk itself isn't worrying, it's worrying when it's obvious he doesn't give a shit about anything and isn't even trying to explain himself about his inactivity and lack of effort. I'm torn because his earlier posts did seem townie, but that behaviour of his strikes some doubt (specially if it wasn't for some outside reason, like getting his internet connection cut or something). I'll try to drop the subject before reading this thread and his case on talis; but this is basically exclusive since it's about his earlier behaviour. Show nested quote +gonzaw telling our vig to shoot Mattchew over this is one of the reasons I'm suspicious of gonzaw That was marv On July 16 2012 07:01 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 06:55 Mattchew wrote:On July 16 2012 06:49 gonzaw wrote:On July 16 2012 06:45 Mattchew wrote: So I couldn't have left 2 hours before the lynch? I wasn't voting Vivax, and my questions werent answered before I had left. Not without explaining why you kept your vote on sciberbia (if you knew you weren't going to be back before the deadline) ro explaining anything at all or if you still thought sciberbia was scum. Or anything at all basically. People not giving you an exact vote count isn't an excuse to waste your vote, leave the thread and come back 24 hours later without giving a shit about the lynch. I had given my opinion on Vivax, because I wasn't confident in it doesn't mean I was ever going to vote to lynch him. So I left my opinions and my vote as they were Vivax wasn't the 100% sure lynch at that point. Dropbear already had votes, and to be honest you could have voted for someone else like austin, Keriathi, etc since they had votes as well. What made you keep your vote on sciberbia and not even consider changing it? What made you not even discuss about it? Or were you in too much of a hurry to explain stuff? If so you could have mentioned you were in a hurry before so we'd avoid this whole mess On July 16 2012 07:04 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 07:01 strongandbig wrote:On July 16 2012 06:53 gonzaw wrote:On July 16 2012 06:48 sciberbia wrote: "Heh heh heh. Town is trying to lynch one of us three scum: mattchew, talis, and gonzaw. How can I throw them off track? Oh I know! I'll leave my vote on sciberbia and mysteriously dissapear. Without my vote, there is no way they'll get a scum. Heh heh heh. I am the brilliant scum mastermind, Mattchew. And there's no way anyone will find my disapearence suspicious"
It's just ridiculous. His disappearing is a busytell, not a scumtell. If Mattchew was scum, how hard would it have been to just hang around and sheep marv's vote? Not that hard. Being around for the lynch but not doing anything (i.e. talis) is more suspicious than not being there at all. Mattchew did very similar stuff in MTG. He went AFK for the WHOLE D1 and he didn't give a fuck about being called out. Him being afk itself isn't worrying, it's worrying when it's obvious he doesn't give a shit about anything and isn't even trying to explain himself about his inactivity and lack of effort. I'm torn because his earlier posts did seem townie, but that behaviour of his strikes some doubt (specially if it wasn't for some outside reason, like getting his internet connection cut or something). I'll try to drop the subject before reading this thread and his case on talis; but this is basically exclusive since it's about his earlier behaviour. gonzaw telling our vig to shoot Mattchew over this is one of the reasons I'm suspicious of gonzaw That was marv Gonzaw do you really not see the difference between how mattchew is posting this game and how he posted in mtg? I'm like 75 percent sure mattchew is town right now. I'm talking about the action itself and how it isn't a "town tell" coming from Mattchew. I said I'm reading the thread later (I'm not actually seriously accusing him right now, at least not before reading his other posts), I just want a (justified) explanation for that previous behaviour of his (you can't tell me it wasn't odd as fuck, everybody noticed it). I already talked about his posting before his "derp", although I skimmed his posts afterwards (from this D2) and they aren't that "townie" as his first ones. On July 16 2012 07:12 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 07:03 sciberbia wrote: @gonzaw Don't you think Mattchew expected to get some serious flak for disappearing? If he was scum and did it on purpose yes (if he's town then he obviously didn't think about it). Show nested quote +I just don't get why scum Mattchew would intentionally draw suspicion to himself unless he had a legit reason for vanishing. I guess you don't know scum Mattchew and what he's capable of. Some scum don't give a shit about slight "WIFOMy" suspicion on themselves if they can get it away easily later or shift attention elsewhere and keep doing what they do. Risen, Mattchew, Palmar, Ace, etc are some players that tend to act like that as scum every once and then I don't know if its a busytell if I don't get a reasonable explanation for it. He WAS active when he made those posts, and there were lots of discussion going on about Vivax, Dropbear, Keirathi, solstice, etc. At that point in time (if he didn't just come, post and immediately leave) there were tons of things he could have done to help town, keeping his vote on sciberbia and not explaining anything isn't part of that. Unless he was in such a hurry he only had time to post and not read the thread at all (and he still believed sciberbia was scum); then it's not a "busytell" and it's odd as fuck. Him not explaining himself at all until I JUST asked him to is odd as fuck as well.
(damn, I see this is taking quite a detour in town discussion. Matt please explain EVERYTHING that went through your mind at that time and what you did (i.e what activity you had, if you were actually reading the thread or just posted and left, etc) so we can get this over with) Look at this post here. Its a lengthy diatribe about myself and Keithrathi, followed by FINALLY a mentioning of his suspicions on Talis. It seems like this was literally forced out of him, and its not like he even mentions any reasons for thinking the way he does. He seems to be trying to go with the flow, but not pushing it at all. He literally does not add anything to the Talis lynch other than his vote. + Show Spoiler +On July 16 2012 11:45 gonzaw wrote:Okay, I've been rereading some stuff and I drop my suspicion of austin, I just can't see him as scum at the moment. Some of that stuff you guys (sciberbia && austin) said makes sense. Plus what I said last night (that S&B's actions did make sense with him being overly frustrated at me, plus his suspicion of solstice and shit) it's likely he's town. Okay, 2 conundrums resolved, now onto talismania/Dropbear/solstice/Mattchew/Risen/Keirathi Just by gut feeling without reading those cases (again, sorry really don't have the time, I'm putting lots of effort in that other mafia game....hey if you guys want you can check it out if I link it to you, you can learn one thing or two ) I get the feeling the scum are there and nowhere else. I haven't checked Milton too much, but I get a feeling he's town, specially because of his stance on talis which he changed after people pointed out how "bad" it was (in the sense that he was only talking about meta). His case on Dropbear seems legit, since I can't really see him heavily accusing someone that considers him almost confirmed town as scum. So by process of elimination (sciberbia, S&B, austin, Milton), it leaves those 6, with 3-4 anti town factions (scum+SK), so I think this day will be a good one. About Keirathi:I get the feeling Keirathi is town but I'm not that sure, I wouldn't mind leaving him for later. Basically, some of what I said earlier applies, in the sense that he didn't really try to scumhunt until being called out (by marv), and those reads seemed pretty bad (specially the one on S&B). After that he spent most of his time defending himself and not really trying to scumhunt. Plus since N1 and D2 I didn't see him do anything constructive at all (hell did he even post in D2?). His defense of Vivax could have given him town points...but I'm not sure (scum opposing a town misslynch on D1 isn't uncommon at all). There are little things that make me think he's town (I've explained them already I think), and tiny bits of reaction he made that I don't really see him making as scum. However those reactions were basically the only thing in his filter at some points, and there was very little scumhunting in between. Now that I look at the tone of his posts it seems townie too me though (gut feeling) so maybe he's likely town I just noticed this: Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 08:46 Keirathi wrote: Sorry, I had to make an emergency trip out of town. Posting from my phone now, but I should have access to a computer later tonight so that I can catch up and post some ideas. So I guess that's the reason he wasn't active. Hmm, I'm slightly leaning town but I'm not that sure. Just like Risen I need him to actually do something today to solidify my read on him
I already discussed Risen (I'm waiting for him to come back), and I'll discuss Mattchew a little bit: About Mattchew:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:44 Mattchew wrote:On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote:On July 12 2012 10:34 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 10:00 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote: Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early. Thank you captain obvious. Instead of posting tautologies, do you have an opinion on said subject? (i.e do you think I'm extremely eager townie or do you think I'm scum looking for easy targets to push?) In hindsight this came out more aggressive than I meant it :/ It's cool. It's nothing compared to what I handled from igrok my last game. Anywho, I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. He wasn't pushing lurkers he was pushing people that posted that sounded excited to participate and post and then didn't. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit I like these since they are concise and give good info. Talis plan was bad and he immediately pointed out without dragging it on. He pointed out the "root" of my accusation and basically agreed with it, even though he was one of the guys I accused (and I mentioned before I wouldn't really expect this from scum Matt, I thought he'd either ignore it or shit on it). His next posts are good as well, I like how he's not shitting on me and reads me okay by that point (that might be a little biased though ). He does make contributions that are indeed "concise" and improve town's atmosphere. He even goes to great length to defend Vivax from marv even before the Vivax wagon started. As well as his read on S&B. So far (assuming S&B is town) that would be a VERY passive game for Mattchew to make as scum, in the sense that he doesn't start shitting and accusing townies left and right, but actually making sense and getting those townies to be recognized as such. His later posts don't really seem the same way (trying to improve town), yet seem more like slightly irrelevant one-liners. Him defending Dropbear and me does seem townie though. However, after that he makes his blunder, where he posts asking for the vote count, but doesn't do shit and keeps his vote on sciberbia. I found this extremely scummy because he WAS active then and as a townie would have cared more about the lynch (and his vote), yet he didn't seem to care. I find it odd as well how now Mattchew seems to avoid that issue and not give me an explanation at all (was he really busy and in a hurry or was he lurking the thread at that point?) that could completely remove my suspicion on him (well not "completely" but I would disregard it). I don't like this drunk post at all: Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 14:18 Mattchew wrote: Hey guys I'm. Little drunk right nowzzzz but I want to lynch Gonzaw tlmmore cause his shoot is so lo g but bad and he acts likes it good... Off he thinks vivid I'd scum he's dumber than anywenbeebebe Since I don't know wtf he's saying and why he thinks I'm scum. Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 02:02 Mattchew wrote: Wow I guess drunk me doesn't like reading Here he posts sober but fails to explain his behaviour last day, even though he should have read that me+marv+others found it suspicious as fuck. From then he seemed less interested in improving town's atmosphere than early-D1. He didn't explain himself at all, and throughout all N1 didn't do shit. I may agree with his case on talis (need to filter talis first), but after that he doesn't really do a good job of explaining himself (about his behaviour or why he thinks I'm scum). I don't like how he's casting suspicion on me right now either, yet refuses to say anything about me or why he changed his town read on me. However, I could see town Mattchew just not caring about his D1 fluke and thinking I'm shitting up the thread about it (thus making him a little bit more suspicious of me), but those reasons above don't make me confident in thinking he's town at all, specially since I know Mattchew is capable of doing that "fluke" as scum just to skate by D1, whether other people find it scummy or not (he wouldn't really care as scum). This is why I'm torn on him, and why I wanted that explanation from him. I would also like an explanation on what he thinks of sciberbia ever since early-D1 and why he changed his mind on me (him not responding these strike me as suspicious as well, since again I can easily see scum Mattchew just not caring about it at this point). He had a good start that made me think he was town but some of his actions and behaviour made me doubt that (since scum Matthew could have just tried to appear pro-town on early-D1 like that)
Holy shit that was long. Anyways, I do feel solstice+talismania are scum, and well didn't really read on Dropbear yet (or these new cases) so I'll do it shortly. I don't really know how to decipher the talis/Dropbear situation (if one is scum, or both are scum, etc), but I'll give it a try. For now I wouldn't oppose a talismania lynch at all by what I've skimmed (plus talismania has basically been useless all late-D1, and all D2 as well). I don't know if maybe I'd support a solstice lynch better, or if I change my mind and find Dropbear more scummy, but we'll see once I read the thread once and for all! Stay tuned. On July 16 2012 11:47 gonzaw wrote: Fuck it I doubt I'll change my mind about talismania.
##Vote: talismania
Just wanted to get the vote out there for a more "official" standing of what I said before.
I added to the "talis lynch" with my night post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=35#683
And I already said what I had to say about his play. There was plenty of time in the day, so I decided to make up my mind about other issues (S&B, you, etc). I already had my mind set on talis being suspicious, and he was going to be a good lynch (either him or solstice at that point). One of the things I did was start reading the D2 thread, and every time an interesting post appeared (for instance an accusation against S&B, or Dropbear) I'd read the filter of this guy and make up my mind about him, and add it to my post. Once I finished reading the thread, I already had all those thoughts and had already posted about a bunch of stuff, so then I decided to go back and read talis' filter, which is when I posted about him.
There's no way you can accuse me of "not caring" or "not trying" because you can see me posting every hour or so. I was actively reading the thread and filters each time. I won't change the way I do it just to satisfy your "contribute to the talis lynch" fascination I post to help town win the game; I didn't have any trouble with a talis lynch by that time and agreed with it, and other people did too, so I decided to contribute to town in other ways. I wasn't trying to "appear pro-town and shit" by rushing to make a case against tali as soon as possible.
Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 06:51 gonzaw wrote: Well damn, I wasn't expecting that.
Fuck I'm not too confident on this one right now, but it's either talis or NL.
Hmm, damn. So now, not when we are mislynching, does the weight of a No Lynch is really weigh on Gonzaw? Its like he is trying to use Keirathi's, (someone he should still believe to be scum at this point, I think?) anxiety to allow him to back out of the Talis lynch. Gonzaw is scum and should be lynched tomorrow.
talis came back and said he had a broken wrist. That made my heart jump out since his lack of contributions and disappearance was part of why I found him suspicious. I panicked but I didn't want a NL. As you can see solstice and Keirathi didn't want a talis lynched, hell solstice even asked me to NL:
On July 17 2012 06:58 s0Lstice wrote: we have two minutes. gonzaw, is a no lynch at all in your head?
I think you are scum because of this reason as well. You accuse me of something that you can more easily accuse someone else of, yet you ignore that guy and focus on me instead.
I didn't want a NL, so I didn't NL. Why do you accuse me of this and not solstice for instance? Or Keirathi who didn't want a talis lynch either and voted sciberbia?
Not only this, but you ignore everything I did. I've posted pages and pages of my thoughts on people, yet you completely ignore them.
For you it's "post case on talis"=="town"; "don't post case on talis"=="scum" and that's it, everything else doesn't matter at all. You posted a "case" against talis (which was 90% based on his case on Dropbear. You care against him wasn't even that detailed or required much effort, as say the cases from sciberbia or austin, or hell even the one I posted in N1 and late D2), posted one-liners like "lynch talis", and that's it. How does that make you town? How am I supposed to know you are not town but instead bussed talis as a scum ploy? You did nothing other than park your vote and post one-liners, all the work to lynch talis was done by other people.
As you remember S&B wanted to kill Dropbear, solstice wanted to kill S&B, Keriathi was AFK and then went talking about sciberbia, Risen and Dropbear were AFK, and Milton was just there wanting to lynch Dropbear and disliking the talis lynch. sciberbia and austin where the only ones trying to convince these people to change their vote to talis, you just parked your vote and did nothing else, yet time and time again you consider yourself like "confirmed town" because you "contributed to the talis case" and you tried to take all the credit from other people because of it.
Actually, speaking of Milton he seemed wishy-washy about the talis lynch, and then disappeared for like 30 hours or something. Hmm I'll have to check him again.
Holy mother of god! That was huge.
I'm starting to get 2nd feelings about Milton, I'll recheck him. If I have time I'll reread Dropbear's, solstice's (just in case) and Keirathi's filters, but I don't know if I'll have the time.
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Ehmm...I'd advise to Mattchew/sciberbia to...you know...maybe ignore some of those points if you want to respond back >_>
Damn didn't think it would be so long
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On July 19 2012 12:12 sciberbia wrote: @gonzaw How likely do you think s0Lstice is to be scum? I'm getting more and more suspicious of him. Look at all the interactions between s0Lstice and talis in their respective filters.
Yes, but now he made that case on Mattchew (just read the headline, not it's content yet), and if he's scum Risen HAS to be scum....I don't know why Risen would make a scum play that outed his scum team in such a way.
I'll say one thing though, I don't think Keirathi is scum at all (at least one thing I'm kind of sure today). He's interacting too much with people this day and the way he posts his reasoning seems townie. Plus he seems genuinely frustrated at Risen going against him. I actually kind of thought Keirathi's plan was good when he posted it, since I'm paranoid of Risen doing this as scum so we could be safe of that scenario.
I can't say much without reading filters again, but right now I'm kind of leaning towards a Matt+Milton scum team It seems to me Milton is trying to blend in this day. I have only seen him post some questions, and some irrelevant stuff but he doesn't participate in any discussion or anything, and apparently he wants to lynch me now as well.
Also this post raised a red flag to me, specially with him opposing the talis lynch, and posting some stuff that didn't really matter and that he never came back to about Vivax and sciberbia/solstice:
On July 17 2012 03:27 Miltonkram wrote: Regarding the case on talismania, I'm really uncomfortable about it. There's a lot in his filter that I find strange such as his obsession with his D1 plan and his subpar case-making. The thing that gives me pause is the fact that he continued commenting on his plan despite getting a ton of shit for it. I realize this is completely different from what I was saying earlier, but the fact that he followed his plan through to completion, whether or not it was a good plan in other people's eyes, gives me the impression that he thought it was a good plan. His D1 plan counts as a townie point in my book.
Talismania's case-making against DropBear and in general has been subpar. I find that the scummiest point against him.
Sciberbia, s0Lstice and I all played in Newbie Mini XV with Vivax. He's been a scummy-as-fuck town player for quite a while. I meant to point this out before the D1 lynch, but I was in a rush and it slipped my mind. The fact that none of us pointed this out should count as an extremely scummy point against all three of us. I have to run, I'm visiting family. I should be back in the thread in a while. In the meantime I would appreciate it if people would read through each of our filters extremely thoroughly. I know I'm town, but I include my name in this to be fair to both sciberbia and s0Lstice.
...then again he made this post in D1:
On July 13 2012 06:35 Miltonkram wrote: I think I've bumped into a pretty decent scumtell while catching up on the thread. Talismania has spent quite a few posts explaining his proposal and why we all should be forward with our impressions of players. With that in mind, don't you think he would start posting something that amounts to pressure? He really hasn't besides his most recent post against dropbear and even that is pretty weak.
Looking through his filter he seems awfully defensive about the plan he came up with. Let me state this so as not to cause confusion, I don't find the fact that he came up with the plan scummy, I find the amount of time he's spent defending himself from the fallout of his plan scummy. I think he's spent 3 or 4 posts just defending himself.
I'm looking at his "Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan" post. It seems like a forced way of making some sort of analysis come from his proposal. He seems to think that so many people agreeing that it's a bad plan is bandwagoning of opinion, and thus scummy. I disagree, I think anyone can see that it's a bad plan and it would be a bad idea to agree with it, scum or town. He's shat up a bunch of the thread talking about his proposal or trying to derail the discussion towards it.
I'll post more reads on players as they come to me.
He's casting doubt on his GF too early, and I don't know if he'd bus him like that early.
*sigh* I fucking hate this, I don't have time to play any game properly :/
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Framers only frame townies to get a red check (never heard of framers being able to frame their own buddies to get them to check "town"...that's what Godfathers do).
Milton claimed RBed....I doubt scum have 1 Godfather, 1 RBer and 1 Framer (or replace Framer with another Godfather). It's likely scum have at least 1 Goon, not just because of the C9++ setup this one is based on but because like every single normal mafia game in mafia history has at least 1 Goon in it.
Also I want to hear more from Dropbear, does he have any scum read at all? I saw he wanted to lynch Risen following Keirathi's plan........so? Why won't he want to lynch scum? Does he think someone is scum?
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There's one thing I'm trying to figure out, which is Risen's claim and whether he'll get RBed tonight or not, tied to Milton.
Milton claimed RBed after Risen claimed cop, am I right? If scum don't have a RBer, then both Milton and Risen have to be scum, since there's no way scum Milton would fake-claim RBer when there's a cop with a "suspicious" claim they would need to RB later. I.e scum killing Risen instead of RBing him would indicate they don't have a RBer in the first place, outing Milton.
If scum do have an RBer, then why didn't they RB on N1? Meh there are so many possibilities in this game.
Also sciberbia where you RBed or not? I think not since nobody claimed RBed on N1 (i.e there's no JK). I appreciate trying to confuse scum about it, but you are confusing town even more since we can't make sense of Milton's RB claim either (since maybe a JK jailed Milton if you claim RB as well).
sciberbia, Keirathi, what do you think of Milton?
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It would also make sense from a balance aspect. If Risen and Milton are scum, then there would only be 1/2 Masons (really, if no mason claims soon I'll assume there was only 1 mason and austin lied for some reason when he died), meaning scum would need to have 2 Goons (since town have little blues) based on the "similar" C9+ setup (even if it's not exactly like C9+, it's similar, if town has more blues scum have more powers, if town has less blues scum have less power), meaning they don't have a RBer.
We have 3 lynches to catch 1 scum right?
Mattchew->Milton->Risen (if Milton flips scum) would be a good "lynch sequence" I think. Oh forgot about Dropbear.
Aw damn now I need to reread his filter
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On July 19 2012 12:49 Risen wrote: Lol did anyone bother reading the OP? First, gonzaw plays dumb with my cop reveal, now he's playing dumb with the miller thing. So scummy wtf...
...wut
Are you fucking kidding me? The OP says there are 2 masons, only 1 mason flipped. Both masons are confirmed town to each other, I want to have a confirmed town here to make better sense of the situation. What the fuck are you accusing me of?
On July 19 2012 12:57 Risen wrote: Gonzaws super soft defense of Keir with a far out case makes him a viable partner for Keir IMO. I still think drop is more likely than gonzaw but I'm convinced that two of Keir/drop/Gonzaw are scum now.
It's not "soft" defense, it's a defense, period. I think he's town and is interacting with people like town.
I could only see more experienced players (as scum) keep up with the level of activity and discussion Keirathi has kept up with.
His vote on sciberbia on D2 was weird to me....but I thought that if he was actually scumbuddies with talis he would have bussed him at that point, not try to justify where to put his vote which would have still meant talis was lynched Like, if he had tried to convince me talis was town or he wanted to NL (like solstice did), then yes it could make sense, but he didn't, and I don't really see him voting sciberbia there as scum, and would have either tried to NL or just bus talis
Also now that I read his filter he seems more townie. I dunno it's the tone of his posts and shit (I think I posted about this already)
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@sciberbia: Do you have anything to say about my defense to your case?
I take it you think solstice+Risen are the scum team then? solstice can't be scum with Risen being town.
The thing about Milton is that yes, he's too quiet. His filter is only 2 pages long for christs sake, plus:
On July 19 2012 08:07 Miltonkram wrote:I need to backtrack a bit. I find Keirathi's "giving up" post extremely scummy. Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 16:46 Risen wrote: It's hilarious how scummy keirathi's posting is. (i guess I'm the only one seeing it though since you have to take my being a cop as true to see it that way)
And maybe strongandbig sees it. Then fucking lynch me today so you can get past your tunnel vision that you had with Vivax and maybe make an actual good read. I'm serious, as much as I don't want us to lynch a townie today, I would rather Risen not be biased and tunneling me and not trying to find the real scum. ##Vote: Keirathi If he were town I think he would continue to try and push a Risen lynch for the reasons he has claimed, to either hit scum or get close-to-confirmed town players. Keirathi giving up does nothing to help town or help us figure out whether Risen is truly a cop or not. Because of this, the only motivation I can see for Keirathi "giving up" is as a gambit to get town players to view him as town. Furthermore the timing is off. Keirathi gives up when there is still plenty of time to pursue cases. I've seen plenty of town players give up close to the deadline, but never 24 hours before it. This makes me think Keirathi's frustration is a ploy. Where did his suspicion of Risen's cop claim go? He states "I would rather Risen not be biased and tunneling me and not trying to find the real scum." It seems like he's treating Risen as if he knows Risen is town. If Keirathi is town, he would pursue a case against Risen harder and search for reasons to distrust Risen's cop-claim. I don't think he's come up with any decent reasons not to trust the claim. I'm not done reading Keirathi's filter, but this screams scum to me. ##Vote: Keirathi
He thinks Keiarathi is scum only because of his "gave up" post? What about his play before? That isn't Keirathi's 1st post at all.
Not only that parts of this case seem kind of forced, like that "if Keirathi was town he'd search for more reasons to distrust Risen's claim" which I don't really get makes Keirathi scum.
I dunno but this seemed like a shitty reason to justify his vote, specially with all the stuff about me, Mattchew, and hell even the stuff said about Keirathi on day 1.
Hmm...I'm thinking about a Risen lynch more and more. I'm scared of him making a senseless play as scum that may actually work by fake-claiming cop like this (and doing the whole "gonzaw wagon" thing), specially with him wanting to lynch Keirathi for shitty reasons without even reading his filter or anything (like Milton up there).
I'll reconsider and read his filter though.
I still want to know wtf Dropbear plans to do this game
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*sigh* My mind is not in a good place right now, I keep confusing the C9++ setup with this one.
On July 19 2012 14:37 Miltonkram wrote: @ Risen I don't think DropBear is scum. He attacked talismania fairly early on D1. Talismania attacked him too. It's possible that they were bussing each other early, but I find it extremely unlikely. Because of that I'm giving DropBear the BOTD.
@ Gonzaw I have a small filter because I've been busy. If you've looked through my filter you'd notice that I had to help my father move. The move happened rather suddenly so I wasn't able to budget time in for this game, hence me missing the vote D2. I'm doing my best to catch up and contribute today, but there is a lot of posts to wade through.
Can you tell me why Keirathi is scum based on his whole play this game?
You just voted him for that one post... why?
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Actually, I think Risen is town.
Here is his filters from LII (scum): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128&user=62525 Here is his filter this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147&user=62525
One thing in LIII I saw was this: He was fluffy as hell and all his posts reeked scum at the beginning, but after I called him out he became super disruptive, aggressive, posting one-liners with a very aggressive tone in a chaotic-way. Here, you can see Risen being more "calm" at first and then getting more "aggressive" later (when he started pushing Vivax for instance). However his "calm" posts are still that, calm, I don't get the feeling he's trying to fake contributions there or anything. Plus his "change" into normal Risen seems more legit, since you can see him getting more aggressive and stuff like he usually plays as town as time goes by, which is understandable if he can't control his impulses >_>
There are some weird stuff, like him getting too "emotional" that Vivax flipped town and him missing almost all D2, but there are some things in his favour: -That meta comparison I made earlier -He was the 7th vote on talis, meaning he basically prevented a NL to save talis (albeit he HAD to vote or be modkilled) -This cop claim doesn't make much sense if he's scum since it's not an "obvious" attempt to disrupt or confuse town, it actually gives us lots of info (about S&B and solstice for instance).
His gambit of attacking me and then dropping it doesn't seem too suspicious I think. Basically because I don't think he'd do it as scum, he'd be VERY happy with me getting lynched, so I doubt he'd try a gambit that avoids that when other people were intent on lynching me. His attack on Keirathi isn't that good...but well his attack on Vivax wasn't either, and him not playing that great doesn't equal him being scum.
So I don't really think Risen is scum so I wouldn't want him lynched today now that I think about it.
Now let's analyse this logically:
1)Risen claimed cop with a green check on S&B and solstice 2)The Godfather is dead 3)There is only 1 Godfather at most 4)Because of (2) and (3), there is no GF alive this game 5)One can only distrust green checks when a GF is alive 6)Because of (4) and (5) one can trust any green check this game 7)Because of (1) and (6), if Risen is town, then we can trust his green check 8)Because of (7), if Risen is town, S&B and solstice are town. 8.a)If Risen is town, then S&B is town 8.b)If Risen is town, then sosltice is town
I think Risen is town, therefore I think S&B is town and solstice is town.
*pheww* thank god I don't have to read solstice filter now then >_> I've already posted some stuff about his responses this day and why it didn't make me think he was scum, but I guess this makes me more sure.
Anyways, Mattchew+Milton/Dropbear for scum I think, so please people vote Mattchew.
I'm torn on Dropbear/MIlton since I'm waiting their responses first.
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On July 19 2012 15:29 Miltonkram wrote: @ gonzaw There's still the possibility of a framer.
Doesn't matter, read point (5)
There's still the possibility of there being two Godfathers. Your logic is flawed.
I'd say that possibility is very low, read point (3). I haven't seen a "normal" mafia game with 2 Godfathers (SoaF had 2 Gfs, but it wasn't normal), and even in that case it's unlikely THIS game has 2 GFs. Even if that's the case, the only thing you can disprove is that one of solstice or S&B is town, nothing else.
Can you tell me the relevance of this? Great, there's a small possibility of me being wrong, like 0.03% and that even if Risen is town, one of S&B or solstice are scum...
....are they? Do you think one of them are scum? If not, why did you make this comment at all? Are you just trying to cast doubt on them? Or do you just want to discredit me?
Anyways I may be getting to confrontational right now, but you are not convincing me you are town at all with posts like these Milton.
I don't see how DropBear is scummy. He and talismania went at each other D1. It's possible that they tried to bus each other D1, but it's extremely unlikely.
You could very well reread his filter to figure it out, as I'm going to do. If not, then who's the other scum? Keirathi? Make that case then
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On July 19 2012 15:05 Miltonkram wrote: @ gonzaw I didn't realize my vote was still on Keirathi. Thanks for clearing that up.
##UnVote: Keirathi ##Vote: gonzaw
Regarding your question, in Keirathi and I's previous game together, Newbie Mini XIX, he put in a ton of effort. He had this "never-say-die" attitude that caused him to be incredibly active.
Keirathi giving up doesn't fit in with the picture I have of him from that game. There are two reasons for a player to give up, they are frustrated or they're giving up as a scum ploy. I originally thought Keirathi giving up was extremely scummy, but thinking over the situation and rereading his responses gives me the impression that he's actually frustrated. I find Mattchew's case against you more convincing anyways.
So you'll just sheep Mattchew's case? Even though I basically disproved it completely?
Okay people, tell me this, who is my scumbuddy?
I just basically proved to you guys that Keirathi, Risen, sosltice and S&B are town (well, proved seems like a strong word since I might be wrong, but I feel confident in my town reads on them at the moment, plus that logical stuff from above). Did I just back my own buddy into a corner?
The case on me is basically based on me not "contributing" to the talis lynch, and "having wishy-washy" reads. Okay, I know I wasn't active in lynching talis on D2, but that doesn't make me scum. Do you think I was not active and putting effort in trying to figure out the alignments of other players? You don't think I was NOT malign about those intentions? Do you think I just started babbling and babbling about people just because I didn't want to talk about talis or something?
Go read those posts I made on D2 and answer me (to everybody basically).
I can't say anything about "having wishy-washy" reads because it's true. I don't 100% know who's scum and town in this game and every single time I reread the thread/filters or every time someone posts something it changes things and it may change my mind or make me unsure. Although I wasn't "wishy-washy" about everything and only about few people (like Risen and Mattchew on D2 and up until know for instance).
Anyways, me defending myself more won't help anybody (I already did it and it didn't seem to matter) so I'll try and find the scum in Dropbear/Milton.
About Mattchew: Because of what I said earlier, it would only leave Mattchew/Dropbear/Milton/Keirathi/sciberbia as candidates for the 2 remaining scum.
sciberbia is very likely town and his mannerisms make 0 sense as scum and are townie as fuck (him thinking things twice, trying to get every opinion, changing his mind about things, not tunneling but having opinions and sharing them each moment, being interactive with everybody, etc). I think Keirathi is town for reasons stated before.
That leaves Mattchew/Dropbear/MIlton......and just based on that I can easily say Mattchew is scum, even if I thought he was scum before.
Another thing I'd say about Mattchew, is that he doesn't seem to care about this game, he just seems to care about FoSing someone and getting him lynched. He did that with talis (made one "case" against him, voted him, and just tried to get him lynched, did nothing else), and is doing the same with me (made one "case" against me, voted me, and just tries to get me lynched, does nothing else). The one is important because Mattchew thinks his "cases" are flawless or something and he fails to mention anything about those players at all costs.
I haven't seen Mattchew mention ANYTHING about talis other than that post he made, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. He never commented on the other cases or on anything else that could be said about talis. He's doing the same with me, he doesn't mention ANYTHING about me anymore. That's no town behaviour at all. No townie is just content in making 1 vote that justifies their actions and then skating by the whole game using that previous post as their excuse to do nothing at all. Specially if you are very sure someone is scum.
Someone read Mattchew's filter and tell me this isn't true. When have you seen a SINGLE contribution from him ever since early D1 that weren't these 2 posts?:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=49#973 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=38#753
I guess I should be fair and mention this other single contribution from him: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=48#956
@Milton: I want a fully explanation about why I'm more likely scum than Mattchew. a FULL explanation, no "I'm sheeping Mattchew's case". Explain in your own words why I'm scum, and explain in your own words why Mattchew isn't scum. Go go go
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Mattchew, I'd very like you to tell us who you think is my scumbuddy. Or you know, post anything at all that contributes to this game....anything really.
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On July 19 2012 15:48 Keirathi wrote:That was my assumption coming into the game too, because thats how framers have worked in previous mafia games I have played. But some people seem to think differently, so mod confirmation would be great.
It seems obvious that it works like Risen did it, but wbg confirming it won't kill anybody.
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EBWOP:
"like Risen said it did, but..."
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Dropbear:
As I instantly read his filter, I noticed his confidence and arrogance basically. For instance this:
On July 12 2012 18:09 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 16:10 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 15:38 Keirathi wrote:On July 12 2012 15:14 DropBear wrote:On July 12 2012 15:06 Keirathi wrote: I don't think anyone is saying roleblocker should never, under any circumstances, use their power.
But it needs to be used with extreme caution because you probably have a higher chance (or at the very least, equal) of blocking a town blue than blocking a KP if you just pick randomly.
There are certainly situations where it can be a useful power, of course, but its much safer just to not use it until you have good, solid reads. People have in fact said that it shouldn't be used period. Gonzawtalismania Then I completely disagree with them. I'm still not positive they mean that there is a never a situation where RB can be useful, but if they think that then I encourage them to think harder. Obviously there are exceptions. If there are 2 "very obvious scum" or something (and only 2 scum remain) then he can try to RB those. But him trying to RB at random on N1 or even on N2 seems too risky to me, specially if that guys doesn't have very good reads (and isn't lucky). @Dropbear: I don't like your attitude. You just busted into the thread, basically discredited everything everybody said, and discredited every accusation anybody else has done, and that's it. All the while acting like you own the place or something (without actually taking charge). However you are not progressing at all, you are just complaining. Actually lets get the ball rolling (this thread is VERY silent so far, hopefully this changes that): ##Vote: Dropbear You're just mad that I think your idea on the roleblocker is bad and your cases are bad.
I accuse him and he just shrugs it off. Unless he's like Ace or has a similar scum play like that I don't see him acting like this at all if he was scum.
Talis does seem to go off against him pretty fast. Seems too early for a bus, specially if it's ALL talis does.
I have to take advise from our friend Mattchew here:
On July 14 2012 03:30 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 02:49 gonzaw wrote:On July 14 2012 02:43 Mattchew wrote:On July 13 2012 17:01 DropBear wrote:On July 13 2012 09:07 Vivax wrote:I'm not comfortable with a tali lynch. Comparing filters I found Miltonkrams filter to be fairly empty and he targetted the easy target. He posted 1. A list of his games to make himself available for a metacheck. 2. He comments on Talis plan being bad, and that being reason enough to be scummy. My impression of talis plan gone bad so far: It's a magnet for players with no/bad cases to have a reason to post something accusing. The downside is that it might have triggered policy discussion and a lot of chaos, while promising a lot of clarity by forcing players to take a hard stance, so talis plan was risky from a town perspective, and I'd leave it at that. He said it worked in bastard mafia, let's leave it at that: It won't be used here. 3. On July 13 2012 06:35 Miltonkram wrote: I don't find the fact that he came up with the plan scummy, I find the amount of time he's spent defending himself from the fallout of his plan scummy. I think he's spent 3 or 4 posts just defending himself.
Defending oneself isn't scummy. If it's really the only thing you do, then yes, but Milton already knows that it's not the only thing tali is doing: On July 13 2012 06:48 Miltonkram wrote: EBWOP: I didn't notice that talismania was actually putting a fair amount of pressure on austinmcc. I still find the amount of time he's spent talking about his proposal scummy, but he has put a small amount of pressure on players. still seems to firmly believe in a scum tali. He doesn't have any other reads. He comments on Keirathi and sciberbia being unreadable to him. I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense. I'll defend Milton for you He started late so hasn't posted as much. We knew that was happening before the games started. Your point 1 directly helps people get a read on him. This is extremely positive town play. In your point 2, you say how the plan allows pointless posting and how that doesn't help town, but then turn around and lambast Milton for pointing this out. Contradiction much? There is no real pressure from talismania on austin at all. Milton is right, talismania IS only defending the plan and not committing to accusations. Three reads is enough for day 1, no? Posting your read on every single person is just clutter. You should be less obvious in defending your buddy. SCUM TEAM
Vivax talismania gonzaw, scum don't usually do this. so i don't want to vote dropbear. Scum don't usually defend other guys and accuse people....? Could you be a little bit more specific? What about the rest of his posts? Scum don't usually defend people with good reasoning, like i think drop did. Also, he is aggressive and willing to take on the loudest person here (you) which means he's not afraid of the attention, another thing scum is unlikely to do
I agree with this, scum rarely defend people.
There's something I seem to agree with as well, which is from sciberbia:
sciberbia: I feel like we were just lynching between a bunch of townies yesterday. If I had to guess, I'd say there is only 1 scum between our many lynch candidates: dropbear, vivax, miltonkram, s0Lstice, austinmcc, risen, and keirathi.
talis didn't give a fuck yesterday. If Drop was scum I'd say he would give a fuck. If not him, then his other scumbuddy would give a fuck and try to stop the Dropbear lynch. Since I think that scumbuddy is Mattchew, with talis not giving a fuck and Mattchew not giving a fuck either, it does seem to me the lynch was between 2 townies, if not I'm sure something different would have happened, specially when Dropbear was starting to get votes on top of him.
There are tiny bits that make me wary.
For instance, he didn't actually contribute at all since N1 basically, and also these posts:
On July 17 2012 02:22 DropBear wrote: Haven't been able to post today, been busy.
General consensus is that talismania is dying. I agree that he is dodgy as fuck but I'm also wary about how little opposition his lynch is getting.
On July 17 2012 02:38 DropBear wrote: Ok so re-reading day 2 there is noone defending talismania at all. Noone.
solstice you have sheeped the tali lynch really hard and have offered no response to my questioning of your Risen case on day 1, which was highly questionable. You are either scum falling in line to bus your doomed buddy or scum jumping on the bandwagon to lynch a townie as far as I am concerned.
My vote is staying where it is.
The only alternative to a talis lynch was a lynch on him I think (S&B plus someone else had votes on Dropbear)...so apparently not wanting to lynch talis is very weird since it'd imply he'd want to be lynched himself or something. He basically wasted his vote on solstice.
His later "plan" to lynch Risen is not scummy itself since Keirathi did it as well. But he didn't really contribute anything at all or who he thought was scum.
Hmm....one thing I don't know would have happened if he was scum is Mattchew defending Dropbear so badly up there (in that quote I posted).
tl;dr: Dropbear seemed very confident, talis accused him very early to be a bus, Mattchew defended him too much if he was scum, and the reaction from talis indicates he was a misslynch on D1 as well (specially if Dropbear himself didn't try to do anything to stop his lynch before, he would have seen it coming I think).
On the other hand, ever since D1 he hasn't contributed at all, implied he didn't want talis lynched and wasted his vote on solstice, now wants to lynch Risen based on a plan he copied off Keirathi yet apparently has no scum reads at all.
Well...I'm not sure to be honest :/ I could see him more likely town....but he could be scum specially because of his reaction to talis being lynched and his throwaway vote on solstice
Hmm, I'll check Milton now, if you guys have any thoughts on Dropbear you are free to check
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On July 19 2012 16:00 Risen wrote: You give me a defense and then give a semi "slip" there. Throw in my misuse of bus and wagon earlier? Shady looking cop claim. Risky, though, bc I have a chance to check your teammate tonight and you have to leave me alive for this to mean anything
What slip? No sane townie would take that as a slip (of what, you being Framer?).
The misuse of bus and wagon was your own fault entirely don't accuse me of trying to "make it appear you are bussing me" if you are the one committing mistakes that may give others that impression.
Anyways Risen, could you give me your thoughts on any of that shit I wrote these past few pages?
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On July 19 2012 16:05 Miltonkram wrote: My understanding is that framers can make scum players look innocent or town players look guilty.
@ gonzaw My initial impression is that Mattchew is town and you are scum. I feel like the cases made against you are much more concrete than the cases made against him. I'm currently cross-checking filters chronologically with the thread. This takes a lot of time and effort, so I'm not spewing shit all over the thread and drowning it with all my half-baked opinions, unlike someone I can think of...
Not good enough.
If you are actually doing the "cross-checking filters", then you should always post your findings in the thread if not we can't know if you are actually doing it as town or not doing it/half-assing it as scum.
This takes a lot of time and effort, so I'm not spewing shit all over the thread and drowning it with all my half-baked opinions, unlike someone I can think of...
Is it really shit? Are you sure?
Can someone tell me if everything I'm writing is shit? I may be trying to overpost right now but it's the only way to show I'm transparent with my thoughts. It's the only way to show I'm actually putting effort in this game and that when I say "I'm reading the thread/filters" I actually mean it It's the only way to contribute to the thread, be active, instantly react, not hesitate, etc to show people that I'm town. Apart from Bang Bang 2 I was never lynched, nor misslynched as town (I wouldn't really count that though >_> ), I don't plan on that happening today either, so I'm doing all I can to prove I'm town, specially now that Bureaucracy Mafia has slowed down a little bit giving me more time to put into this game.
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Sorry, don't have time to read Milton's filter.
I do start to get the feeling he's more likely scum than Dropbear, specially with his responses towards me and how easily he changed his vote to me without stating a SINGLE reason (other than "I'm sheeping Mattchew's case"). I already said his vote on Keirath seemed flimsy too....but hmm I'm trying to figure out if he could do that because he's "noob" and stuff or not.
I'd bet on him being scum, but hey I can be wrong so maybe we should go one step at a time.
Everybody please post your thoughts on these things I've posted. Risen+sciberbia please reconsider voting me today and vote Mattchew or even Milton if you want (or Dropbear if you can convince me he's scum). I don't know what else to do to prove I'm town, I don't think the accusations against me hold any water since you guys are just using confirmation bias by saying "oh, if gonzaw is scum...then he acted weird about his scumbuddy talismania...therefore he's scum". You guys never stopped to think why I could have acted like I did if I was town, or what actual motivation I would have to act like that as scum
I already said a scum me would not just stand idle while talis is getting lynched and actually convince people to NOT vote for other people, like when I tried to convince solstice NOT to vote S&B, and when I tried to convince S&B NOT to vote Dropbear. If I was scum that would seem like a sure-way to get my scumbuddy talis lynched (I convince everybody to unvote anybody that isn't talis) while not reaping the benefits of a bus, meaning I'd get into a situation similar like this one, but being scum, when I could have either bussed talis and get here with "huge amounts of town cred bro!" or try and get a misslynch on D2 so I'd be 6v3 right now with high chances of winning.
I'm busting my ass here posting reads, rereading filters, posting opinions, reconsidering all possibilities, actively responding to people that address me, and interacting with anybody I can without thinking twice. I seriously can't think of anything else to prove I'm town, I can't. Hopefully someone on Obs QT can sympathize with me, or someone in Post-Game, since I don't think I'm doing anything wrong. Hell I'm posting less than in MTG mafia and ONLY have 8 pages of filter (not 17 >_> ) I even tried to cut back the posting a little bit.
Anyways, that will be a discussion for Post-Game. I think I've said everything I needed to say, except I haven't read Milton's filter by now (and solstice....but thank god logic is there to save me from that chore >_> ) I'll do that tomorrow....and then do nothing I guess? :/
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It's because I derped about the setup like 1000 times isn't it? :/
Damn you setup!!! *clinches fist into air* I'll have nightmares about Masons and TTTs and CCs >_>
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On July 19 2012 20:39 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 12:28 gonzaw wrote: Framers only frame townies to get a red check (never heard of framers being able to frame their own buddies to get them to check "town"...that's what Godfathers do). This is egregious. Every time a framer has been mentioned in a thread since I've started playing TL mafia, someone has mentioned the possibility of framing their teammates; there's no reason to assume the opposite so blithely. It's just, like, enough is enough - at a certain point we have to assume that this is malicious. I just can't decide what the odds are that Gonzaw would actually do as much work as he is claiming and posting without even reading the OP.
Yet has never happened right?
If someone mentions in a thread "A Godfather may be able to vig shot a Goon to be bulletproof for 3 nights, right?" it doesn't mean it can happen if it never happened in any TL game at all.
If this is malicious intent from me then I'm a pretty shitty scum since the only way I intend to be malicious of is trying to confuse you guys about the setup even when you guys seem to be omniscient about it every time I post.
On July 20 2012 00:39 sciberbia wrote:@Miltonkram Yea I found that suspicious as well. Think about it from talis's point of view. If talis is scum and gonzaw is town, wouldn't talis love for us all to not trust gonzaw? Why would he go out of his way to make dumb reasons to bolster a town gonzaw's credibility? At the same time, this also makes me suspicious of s0Lstice who did some peculiar townhunting on gonzaw D1. Though, at least s0Lstice had some better reasons IMO.
I have a couple quick points to make in Mattchew's defense. First of all, does this sound like scumbuddies talking? Not to me. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:54 talismania wrote:On July 13 2012 07:13 Mattchew wrote:Lets kill talis, Keirathi or scib Talis cause he's proposing anti town plans and then backpeddling super fast Keirathi cause he's posting super carefully, and his reads seem forced scib cause he seems hesitant to post, and he posts this (it was spoilered) Obviously, we should be lynching every day until we have good reason not to. I will push to get my scumreads lynched, but I will prefer any lynch to a No-Lynch.
I'm not a big fan of lynching lurkers. Obviously, lurking hurts town, but I don't think lurking is all that alignment-indicative. Seeing as our goal is to lynch scum, I will only give slight preference to lynching the lurker over the active player, everything else being even.
as he has not pushed a single read yet loooool I love how you shit on my plan and then literally followed it to the T in that post. Three reads, one sentence explanation, at 24 hours into the game. :-) In response to your blurb on me I think "backpeddling super fast" twists my words. I posted a half-assed plan expecting it to get shot down but knowing it would probably generate discussion. don't see how analyzing the reactions means I'm backpeddling. What's with your needling of me in general? I ignored the "are you just active lurker" post at first but maybe keirathi is onto something with you.
talis never mentioned Mattchew again so it's very possible.
I'm trying not to take those "interactions" into account too much (other than Mattchew heavily defending Dropbear, but like I said I'm still not sure, although I'm kind of leaning town on him).
Okay...can someone at least read what I posted about Mattchew? solstice isn't the only one. *sig* why do I keep getting ignored in here.
Thoughts on anything...anything else I posted are welcomed too.
Also Mattchew, you don't need to post "what are your thoughts about my case?" 100 times, it only makes you seem like you are active when in fact you are just repeating the same thing over and over when people already fucking read your case since it was 1 post long and it's not that hard to find in your filter.
On July 20 2012 02:14 sciberbia wrote: I don't think risen would be the worst lynch ever, but think about it.
If he fips scum, we probably lynch gonzaw tomorrow. If he flips cop, we probably lynch gonzaw tomorrow.
So why don't we just lynch gonzaw today, and give risen the chance to get another check if he really is cop?
No, just no.
READ what I posted for christ's sake
This is futile god dammit, I can't believe it.
On July 20 2012 02:44 Mattchew wrote: So as people start to wane and move away from Gonzaw where is he to help dictate and direct town?
I'm fucking sleeping you jerk
When I was up (up until like 4 am trying to post and shit mind you) I was making posts and posts with all my thoughts and shit to prove I'm town
I already said I can't do anything else, I already did anything I could.
About Keirathi I guess he could be scum and is tricking me with his "townie" posts. *sigh* I don't know right now, I already said I think he's town even when he derped with the talis lynch.
If someone would care to read ANYTHING of what I posted about Mattchew (this is fucking pissing me off really) I'd be EXTREMELY happy.
Here I'll even make it easier for you (I already linked my "thoughts" about Mattchew but they were completely ignored again, *sigh* )
FUCKING READ THIS, IF NOT I'LL HAUNT YOUR SOULS WHEN I'M GONE:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=41#818 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=48#958 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=62#1228 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=64#1268
I'm not changing my vote. I'm trying to think if I'm "tunneling" a townie Mattchew somehow but I doubt it, and even in that case I don't know who to vote other than him, maybe Milton. Actually no, I'm keeping my vote on him, I'll only consolidate on Keirathi if there is a chance of NL.
Disclaimer: NL today is just as bad as misslynch. We are at 7v2 right now, misslynch is 5v2 and NL is 6v2 next day. If we misslynch in both cases, it's 3v2 and 4v2, both MYLOs, which are basically the same (even then, MYLO is worse to us than LYLO, since scum have 1 more suspect in the table to accuse or 1 more person to trick). So a misslynch today is actually better than a NL. Hell if I'm the lynch candidate at the end of the day with 4 votes I'll hammer me myself. ..actually no I won't misslynch myself for principle (I don't want to ever be misslynch).
Argh actually I don't know, either help town open their fucking mind and win the game, or avoid getting misslynched as town yet have it harder for town to win later since I'm sure it will be basically the same fucking thing over again I don't know, if the time comes I'll think about it a little bit more
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@Milton: That case is bad, very bad.
You are just telling people what I did. Yes I defended talis from pressure on D1, yes I said I wouldn't want him lynched on D1, yes I voted Vivax
....so? Why does that make me scum? Are you willing to state why the fuck I'm scum? You are just explaining what I did and somehow using it to show I'm scum, and also using confirmation bias to do so? That's not how it works
It's possible that he was defending his scumbuddy
He noticed that sciberbia was connecting him and talismania, and thus voted tali in order to try and break that connection.
There are confirmation bias and you can't base a case on this at all. Yes, me and talis being scum is not impossible, neither is you and sciberbia being scum, nor Risen and Dropbear being scum, nor talis and solstice being scum, etc. I'm sure if you go with the "Okay let's assume X is scum....let's see what I find that is consistent with that so I can explain why it is" mindset you won't do shit since you can do that with ANY player in the game.
Moving on to N2, he makes cases against both S&B and tali, stating that the case against S&B is the one he favors. This is a really safe play by scum. It puts his effort behind an S&B lynch, while still leaving him open to bus tali if the situation called for it.
Ehmm...no Read N2 again, I'm clearly backing off pushing S&B at that time and having mixed feelings about him. At all I'm leaning more on "bussing" talis than acccusing S&B or anything else.
Are you scum Milton? Your play this past day seems to indicate so to me
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On July 20 2012 05:19 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 05:13 gonzaw wrote:
Also Mattchew, you don't need to post "what are your thoughts about my case?" 100 times, it only makes you seem like you are active when in fact you are just repeating the same thing over and over when people already fucking read your case since it was 1 post long and it's not that hard to find in your filter.
I want them to write opinions, in you know, the thread
I thought everybody voting me and making huge "he's bussing talismania" posts would be enough?
Your case is "bad" (the 1st half of it is uber bad, really, it's confirmation bias at its finest), the only "remotely interesting" thing is what you wrote about my behaviour on D2 regarding talis, but everything else is bad and you haven't even posted ANYTHING that makes me scum other than that.
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EBWOP:
"Ehmm...no Read N1 again, I'm clearly backing off pushing S&B at that time and having mixed feelings about him. At all I'm leaning more on "bussing" talis than acccusing S&B or anything else.
Are you scum Milton? Your play this past day seems to indicate so to me"
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Fucking hell I put more effort in this game than in any other and this is how I'm rewarded
Fuck it I'll just lurk any game from now on, ever since Bang Bang I had a feeling that "oh he posting a lot doesn't make him town because he does the same thing as scum.....yeah let's ignore everything he said and lynch him" sentiment that happens in UG as well would transfer.
*calms down*
*breathes*
This isn't helping at all, but damn I'm angry.
Anyways, I've already posted everything I could, I seriously don't know what else to do.
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what the, what is this?
lol
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On July 20 2012 06:24 sciberbia wrote: @s0Lstice Honestly right now I wish I found Mattchew scummy but I just don't buy that any of the evidence you listed is that scummy. I feel like parts of your case were quite a stretch, such as the fact that he didn't die last night implies him as mafia. And why doesn't the fact that he actually contributed significantly to the talis lynch count for anything? I just really don't see why we should lynch Mattchew.
I still think gonzaw has a good chance at flipping scum. Miltonkram has made me more suspicious of him today, but on the whole, his filter isn't all that suspicious. I'd hate to lynch Keirathi today. Really the only lynch I feel like I could really get behind is gonzaw.
You know, I'm starting to get a little bit suspicious of this "I'm ignoring everybody, I think gonzaw is more likely to flip scum" yet you never address anything I posted.
Hmm...makes it unlikely based on your previous play but I can't ignore any possibility
Why haven't you commented on ANYTHING I've written so far? You even just shrugged my defense saying "nah" and nothing else.
People, before switching your votes to Mattchew instantly like this, could you give some reasoning? Granted, it's 20 minutes before deadline, but can you guys at least read what I posted about him? I never like people switching votes without reasoning.
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On July 20 2012 06:40 sciberbia wrote: Well it looks like we are lynching Mattchew?
I really hope you guys are right about him. My only solace here is that both s0Lstice and gonzaw seem really sure about mattchew and they can't both be scum.
Can you read my posts and state what you think of them?
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Okay, EVERYBODY post your reasoning for voting Mattchew today:
Milton, Keirathi, I didn't really see you wanting to vote Mattchew today, why the insta vote switch? Milton already posted a little bit, but could you post further reasons?
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Wow, I was just informed I passed a test I didn't think I'd have a chance to pass, and now it seems I won't get lynched and Mattchew will instead.
If he flips scum this will make my day :D
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On July 20 2012 06:40 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 06:40 sciberbia wrote: Well it looks like we are lynching Mattchew?
I really hope you guys are right about him. My only solace here is that both s0Lstice and gonzaw seem really sure about mattchew and they can't both be scum.
Can you read my posts and state what you think of them?
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On July 20 2012 06:45 Mattchew wrote: When I flip town will you guys please please lynch gonzaw
This would be a good time to post who you think is my scumbuddy
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On July 20 2012 06:47 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 06:46 gonzaw wrote:On July 20 2012 06:45 Mattchew wrote: When I flip town will you guys please please lynch gonzaw
This would be a good time to post who you think is my scumbuddy I think your scum buddy is pretty easy to find if risen is actually a cop, or its risen
Who is it? I don't see who is "pretty easy to find" Keirathi? Dropbear? Milton?
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On July 20 2012 06:50 sciberbia wrote: @s0Lstice, @gonzaw How confident are you in this lynch right now?
I have 2 thoughts right now:
1)I'm not getting lynched so I'm pretty confident in any lynch that's not mine 2)Yes, I'm pretty confident Mattchew is scum, he's the guy I'm most confident lynching, specially after Milton changed his mind quickly like that (ehmm, I'm not really sure what to think of that. If Matt flips scum I doubt he's scum though)
@Milton: What made you change your mind about me and Mattchew so suddenly?
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On July 20 2012 06:52 Miltonkram wrote: I was looking through Mafia LVI, like s0Lstice advised, and I noticed that Mattchew was a lot more active posting reads against/for any and all players. He did that as medic, a role that has a reason keeping it's head down. I'd imagine a VT Mattchew would be more open with his reads.
Mattchew has largely kept his commentary on the players he is tunneling. This is a good scum tactic that keeps him from ever contradicting himself or slipping. His play for credit in the talismania lynch was also pretty damn scummy.
What made you change your mind about me?
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On July 20 2012 06:55 sciberbia wrote: @keirathi, @miltonkram, @risen Are you sure you guys aren't just being influenced by gonzaw's loud defense and you just feel less guilty about mislynching mattchew?
Are you sure mattchew is actually more likely to be scum?
I'm interested in this because nobody ever gave a fuck about me until 20 minutes ago. Everybody ignored me yet now they listen to me about Mattchew.
I'll make my mind about it once Matt flips though.
I still want to see what you think of the things I wrote and my "loud defense" (it's not a "defense" it's a "contribution") scib
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Kiss my butt Mattchew
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So, solstice+Milton+Keirathi+Risen basically confirmed town
Dropbear scum then? Unless there's that "super Framer that frames buddies who happened to frame S&B", or sciberbia is scum
If one of you 2 is mason CLAIM NOW, we'll lynch you if not. Dropbear first scib second.
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On July 20 2012 07:04 s0Lstice wrote: Risen is not confirmed town. stop that
Yeah I know, should have thought that a little bit more.
Doesn't seem like scum to me though.
Anyways, then lynch like this and we win Dropbear->sciberbia->Risen
Actually I dunno I have to reread things.
Anyways people, thank you for reading everything I posted about Mattchew >_> /sarcasm
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Tomorrow we massclaim. If mason doesn't claim by then I'll sneak to his house and put a snake in his shoes
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Hye S&B!
On July 19 2012 20:39 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 12:28 gonzaw wrote: Framers only frame townies to get a red check (never heard of framers being able to frame their own buddies to get them to check "town"...that's what Godfathers do). This is egregious. Every time a framer has been mentioned in a thread since I've started playing TL mafia, someone has mentioned the possibility of framing their teammates; there's no reason to assume the opposite so blithely. It's just, like, enough is enough - at a certain point we have to assume that this is malicious. I just can't decide what the odds are that Gonzaw would actually do as much work as he is claiming and posting without even reading the OP.
Do you plan on backing up this statement now? I'd like you to convince me there is a Framer that can get a buddy of his to turn green to a check, if you know what I mean
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I would have liked for him to flip RBer or Framer, would have answered many questions
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Can Framers frame a scumbuddy so cop checks on him come back green?
I'd like wbg to answer this question now (if he can) since it can confirm 2 townies to us 100% (solstice+S&B)
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On July 20 2012 07:12 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 07:08 gonzaw wrote:Hye S&B! On July 19 2012 20:39 strongandbig wrote:On July 19 2012 12:28 gonzaw wrote: Framers only frame townies to get a red check (never heard of framers being able to frame their own buddies to get them to check "town"...that's what Godfathers do). This is egregious. Every time a framer has been mentioned in a thread since I've started playing TL mafia, someone has mentioned the possibility of framing their teammates; there's no reason to assume the opposite so blithely. It's just, like, enough is enough - at a certain point we have to assume that this is malicious. I just can't decide what the odds are that Gonzaw would actually do as much work as he is claiming and posting without even reading the OP. Do you plan on backing up this statement now? I'd like you to convince me there is a Framer that can get a buddy of his to turn green to a check, if you know what I mean I'm not really sure where you're going with this? WBG came into the thread and said framers can do both, but can't self-target. If Risen is cop, then S&B and s0lstice are 100% clean.
Wait he did?
fuck >_>
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Oh nevermind, I guess we can't have confirmed townies then
...UNLESS THE FUCKING MASON CLAIMED!!!!
ARGHGHGHHGG
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There's no point in claiming tonight though, do so tomorrow in our massclaim
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On July 20 2012 07:17 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 07:16 gonzaw wrote:Oh nevermind, I guess we can't have confirmed townies then ...UNLESS THE FUCKING MASON CLAIMED!!!! ARGHGHGHHGG What. Yes we can. Matt was a GOON. That means if the last scum is a framer, they couldnt target themselves. So there are 2 options: 1) Risen is a cop, and both of his checks are legit. 2) Risen is the 3rd mafia.
FUck me I'm sorry I'm too derp for this setup stuff
You are right then, S&B+solstice confirmed town
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Okay, these are the possibilities:
Remaining scum role:
- Goon: Then Milton lied since he claimed RBed (and there is no JK, let's assume this until someone else claims JK tomorrow), therefore Milton is scum, therefore S&B and solstice are town. If Milton was RBed by a JK, then S&B and solstice are still confirmed town since they got a green check on them.
- Framer: Then Milton lied since he claimed RBed, S&B and solstice are town (also because Framer can't frame himself)
- Godfather: Then Milton lied since he claimed RBed, S&B and solstice are town
- Roleblocker: Then S&B and solstice are town
Conclusion: No matter what role scum has, solstice and S&B are confirmed town
Unless there is a JK who DIDN'T JAIL ANYBODY ON N1 (which I find very hard to believe) AND one of S&B or solstice is GF. I find this unlikely though, but we'll find out in tomorrow's massclaim!
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How the fuck was I supposed to know that wasn't a joke!? I thought it was a fucking joke!
Are you fucking kidding me!?
ARGGGH
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Meh yeah it's possible he did it to avoid getting shot by scum tonight, let's just ignore it until tomorrow.
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Yeah okay, I'll have to recheck Dropbear's filter YET again, but if Risen is telling the truth I may have to check S&B's too >_> Damn I don't really want to read more filters this game <_<
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I had 5 votes and Mattchew 3 (me+solstice+Milton) when Risen swapped.
Although it was Milton who started the "last-minute wagon" (and he should get most of the credit), Risen was the second one and had he not done that (even if he said he thought Matt was town...even more incentive to NOT change his vote) I would have been lynched.
However had sciberbia or S&B or anyone of those that had voted me changed their vote to Matt Matt would have been lynched and Risen would have looked pretty bad, so if he's scum I could see him bussing Matt like that just to "get the cred" someone else would have gotten if he had not done it.
Hmm...still, I'm not that sure. If Matt is scum it doesn't make much sense to claim he got a green check on S&B/solstice, considering it enhances the chances Mattchew dies and it makes it impossible for scum to cast doubt on those 2.
If you still think I'm scum...:
I'd argue that if both me and Mattchew were scum this would be an EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT play from both of us. Basically some of you guys are saying me and Mattchew both bussed the hell out of each other since N2. ....for what purpose? Right now we are 7v1. If I'd have done this "just for the town cred" (no matter who of me or Mattchew was lynched), then I would still need to survive 3 lynches and justify not dying 3 nights, and that would raise mayor red flags and I'm sure I'd get lynched soon because of that (specially if I was scum...since well I'd be scum and I'd slip or something).
Well...maybe this is "pointless speculation you could have easily done as scum" so I'll drop it. I just want you to read the thread from D2 and D3 knowing Mattchew and talis are scum and see what scum motivation I had in my actions.
I am not really sure I'll get killed tonight, but it's a possibility (Risen/Milton/Keirathi are other possibilities). I doubt we have a JK at all, but JK, if you exist please don't forget to target someone tonight
Tomorrow all the pieces will fit together with the massclaim. At least we'll know who that mason is and if we have a JK, and if Risen fake-claimed or not, that will answer lots of questions.
Hey Dropbear, where you at? You've been the only player that hasn't chimed in since Mattchew's flip I think, are you his buddy?
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If we do have hidden blues somehow, please claim right before the deadline if you have any info to give us (if you are JK who you targeted each night, if you are Cop who you checked, etc etc), in case you get shot.
sciberbia, you better tell us if you were RBed or not tomorrow. I take it it's possible the JK targeted scum on N1 and scum decided not to claim RBed (for some reasons....?), maybe the JK jailed talis or something >_> <_<
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Why would scum Risen "confirm" 2 players as town (S&B and you) last day if he was buddies with Mattchew?
Granted it would reduce the pool of suspects and increase the chances him or Mattchew are lynched, right? (which effectively happened, and hell even people like Keirathi or Dropbear and other guys later wanted Risen lynched as well).
I know scum Risen can do crazy stuff...but that crazy stuff is generally used to confuse town even more, not to help town.
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Well, I wasn't, it "confirmed" solstice and S&B to me. Whether it made me "unsure" about Risen's claim or not...it confirmed 2 guys as town, you can't deny that (it actually confirmed them as town if you think Risen is scum).
I was actually suspicious of solstice and planning to read his filter and maybe going after him.....Risen basically allowed me to focus on Mattchew and not care about solstice.
Meh, hopefully scum don't have a RBer and kill him tonight or something.
Even then Risen has to survive 3 night kills and 3 lynches to win as scum, I doubt he could do that. Also he may be faking his "I fake-claimed cop last day" to avoid getting shot/RBed by scum, so tomorrow we'll know if his claim is legit or not.
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So night action deadline is 1 hour before the Day post?
.....I didn't know that >_> <_<
Okay, let's make some things clear:
On July 20 2012 18:15 strongandbig wrote: Also gonzaw what do you mean by "massclaim"? It seems apparent at this point that we probably don't have any blues except the mason partner left, since if we had a vig someone would be dead, if we had a JK someone townier-looking than Milton would have claimed RB, and if we had a cop he would have counterclaimed Risen. (Or at least, I think that would be the correct play, I'm not sure).
I guess it's possible we have a JK left and they jailed Milton, but that's not a claim we can easily confirm since a scum roleblocker could also claim JK; I'm not sure what a JK claim gains us tomorrow, it's not like that person would be confirmed town.
I kind of agree that the Mason should claim, but I guess they want to save that until they are in danger of being lynched (that's the only reason I could see for them not claiming yesterday); I just hope they claim before LYLO because at LYLO the mason claim is useless unless it was breadcrumbed by Austin before he died.
This is why I want the massclaim:
- We will KNOW who that freaking Mason is. Why? Because people won't just say "I'm not Mason", they will have to claim a role. If the Mason wanted to hide he'll have to fake-claim VT or blue or something, which he knows is lying and not helpful to town, so the massclaim will actually get him to claim.
We need a Mason claim to get 1 confirmed town, which: -Reduces the pool of suspects to catch the remaining scum -Reduces the pool of townies the remaining scum can latch onto to FoS or cast suspicion.
- We'll know if there is a JK or not (right now we DON'T know).
- We'll know if there is any other hidden blue role (like Town RBer), which will give more info to MIlton's RB claim. Meaning it will out that scum have a RBer or that Milton is scum for instance
- We'll know if Risen fake-claimed cop or not.
- The remaining scum has to fake-claim something, let him take the risk.
Is it 100% that no scum nor blue can change their actions right now? We can start the massclaim right now then.
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I fucking hate you so much sciberbia
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I guess if it's endgame we win....unless 3 vigs shoot town and there's a hidden SK or something >_>
If scum had resigned I would have thought the Endgame was going to happen sooner. For instance once Mattchew was lynched and half-way through this night.
If the Endgame happens RIGHT with the Day Post, it may have something to do with blue roles or something. Winning to scum resignation isn't fun
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Well, fuck this shit I guess Risen is RBer then?
Having RBer without blues seems like a waste, also a GF without cops and shit, and kind of the opposite of the C9++ thingy, but meh it has happened before (scum get "blue-stopping roles" when there are no blue roles like that to begin with).
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On July 21 2012 06:15 sciberbia wrote: risen is the only scum I could possibly see resigning here.
mayybe we got a vigi shot?
Dropbear could have resigned.
Hell ANY scum could have resigned.
The remaining scum has to survive 3 FREAKING LYNCHES to win. Considering you+Milton+Keirathi+solstice are basically out of the question, the remaining scum is between me+S&B+Risen+Dropbear....which means he has to get ALL the guys lynched in that group before him (also he won't lynch me, therefore he will get lynched before me, therefore he will lose).
So yeah, no matter who is the scum (Risen, Dropbear......or hell maybe even S&B) he'll likely lose
I dunno why he didn't resign before though, either resign soon or go all the way!
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Hey scib...
...why didn't you guys claim as soon as D1 started? >_> Having austin as "confirmed town" on D1 would have greatly helped, and so you (you weren't really "super pro-town guy" by that time).
I guess after D2 there wasn't much point in claiming, since like I said you were the "most townie guys out there", but why didn't you claim on D1 which was before all that shit happened?
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On July 21 2012 06:20 Miltonkram wrote:I think I've found scum. Sciberbia's approach to each of our three lynches has been different each time. sciberbia's approach to the 1st lynch: + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:42 sciberbia wrote: OK guys we have to lynch today!
I think there is least resistance to a dropbear lynch. I'd be willing to consolidate on dropbear. Is anyone strongly opposed to a dropbear lynch? Here he is willing to vote for dropbear because there is "least resistance" to a dropbear lynch. This does not sit well with me, particularly because earlier he had posted this regarding dropbear. On July 14 2012 06:18 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 03:55 Miltonkram wrote: @ sciberbia I would be interested in hearing your opinion of DropBear.
Sorry I just spotted this while going through your filter. In short, I am pretty neutral on him. His first post feels townie to me. His next couple posts feel sketchy. His vote on vivax is not a scumtell IMO. I think scum would be extremely wary of voting with so little reasoning. His conviction in a talis & vivax scumteam seems a bit suspicious. I really just don't have a strong feel on him one way or the other. I don't see how he's willing to consolidate on DropBear when earlier he's got a pretty neutral read on him. Most townies will do their best to push whichever lynch they think is better. If you look at our 2nd and 3rd lynch, sciberbia pushed pretty hard for the lynches to go his way. I've come to suspect that our first lynch was between two townies, considering the fact that now I have a fairly strong town read on DropBear. Townies didn't know that at the time and would have been extremely invested in the lynch. Scum would know that we were picking between two townies, and thus wouldn't care as much. Sciberbia didn't seem too invested in our 1st lynch, especially compared to how hard he pushed these last two lynch efforts. True, sciberbia did qualify his statement with this On July 14 2012 06:44 sciberbia wrote: @Risen I'd love to lynch Vivax at this point but there just doesn't seem to be enough support for it. but I still feel like he wasn't truly invested in how the 1st lynch turned out. I'm also wary of how easily he was convinced of Vivax's townieness. On July 14 2012 06:55 sciberbia wrote: oh ow NOW vivax is giving me a really townie feel. Does anybody else see his last two posts as townie? This sudden change of opinion feels rather forced. I feel like it's a bit of a show. sciberbia's approach to the 2nd lynch:+ Show Spoiler +We all know the story, he pushed the talismania lynch really hard. I feel like both Mattchew and sciberbia came out of nowhere and put their full weight behind a talismania lynch. I don't remember who posted this, but they said that if sciberbia had bussed talismania it would have been an "old school style bus" where the player tunnels their scum buddy hardcore. Well we now know that's what Mattchew did, why not sciberbia too? This is a minor point and it could be incorrect, but with Mattchew so all-in on a talismania lynch I almost find it likely that his scumbuddy was also pushing for a tali lynch. Why get town cred for one player when you can get it for two, correct? Here are a few examples of him pushing the talismania lynch. Hopefully you can spot the differences between his attitude in the D1 lynch and the D2 lynch. On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote:I feel much better about my reads right now than I did D1. Here are top 3 most suspicious: 1) talismania: I really want to lynch him. 2) gonzaw: I have a few minor points against him, but other than that it's gut feeling. He reminds me a lot of mafia Xatalos from NMM XV. gonzaw and talis are linked as scumbuddies in my mind. I want to see talis flip red before we lynch gonzaw. 3) keirathi: still seems somewhat suspicious; mostly for reasons I've already stated I really need a break from this game so I'm just going to make a case on talismania before getting some much-needed sleep. It's almost 7am here. I'll post thoughts on other people tomorrow.
My case on talismaniafixation on his planThis has already been talked about in other cases; those of austinmcc and miltonkram I believe. It's a bit weird how wrapped up he gets in proposing his plan, defending his plan, and analyzing reactions to his plan. In particular, I find his assemblage of reactions suspicious: + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote:Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) + Show Spoiler +marvellosityOn July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). no next On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzawOn July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote:So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:56 Risen wrote: Welcome to ICBINTMM in which Risen does not post in caps or call anyone an idiot THE ENTIRE GAME. Stay tuned to see if this actually happens...... Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:33 strongandbig wrote: sup bros i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room. Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote: alight lets do this.
no zentor means no policy lynch based on names for me. You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:05 austinmcc wrote: Screw the number and size of posts. I'm not a scientist, but it looks like talismania's been town --> scum --> town --> scum --> town. Therefore, he's scum this game.
I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls. But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. MattchewOn July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solsticeOn July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmccOn July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. KeirathiOn July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBearOn July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote:This is silly. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). This isn't going to happen and would just waste time.
On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbigOn July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote:Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET.
Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] +The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that.
NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you.+ Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice This just feels like one of those busy-work summaries that scum do to make it look like they are contributing. It also ties in with his insisting that his plan has promoted discussion. Overall, all this talk about the plan is unproductive and slightly suspicious. consistently wishy/washyHere are some examples of some wishy/washiness. Several of these raise yellow flags for me: + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 07:54 talismania wrote:I don't like milkton's last post either. There's a touch of omgus to my feelings there but I also think his argument he just made about me doesn't make much sense. Although come to think of it I dunno why he would come in out of the cold and start making a case on me does seem a bit random as scum.
austin's reply to my poke at his post was rather overwrought which fits with my model of him as nervous scum but I guess that could just be the way the guy is too. solstice you said you know him - what do you make of it? + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 01:32 talismania wrote: solstice: I really like the case marv made on him, actually, but for some reason I don't know if I can move beyond a null on him. Like I think the first half of his filter is scummy (the part marv showed), the second half townie. Overall he is playing fairly relaxed, which is usually a town indicator as well. On the other hand he's also been fairly focused on just a couple players, which is a scum indicator.
Keirathi: Well he's conditional town or conditional scum at this point. Like I think he was way too neutral in the beginning as someone else pointed out but he's also onto dropbear as I am.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 01:43 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 01:39 marvellosity wrote: quick question tali - what pushes you to Dropbear rather than austin? actually that is a decent question. I originally ranked them that way in my head from way back when I analyzed reactions to my posts and it sort of has stuck since then. Mmm I guess thinking it over I can't think of a fantastic reason for one over the other to be honest with you. + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote: @risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro. + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:08 talismania wrote: I dunno. I'm starting to think my case on austin is actually stronger than my case on dropbear was in the first place to be perfectly honest. However milton and keirathi also brought up good points on dropbear I think. Unless they were just trying to nudge a bandwagon along? Mmm shit.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:32 marvellosity wrote: no-one's gonna come with me on austin? I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. especially that last one. seriously wtf.. I don't like his approach to the lynchI feel like we were just lynching between a bunch of townies yesterday. If I had to guess, I'd say there is only 1 scum between our many lynch candidates: dropbear, vivax, miltonkram, s0Lstice, austinmcc, risen, and keirathi. So I think the mafia must have felt very at ease and not really cared too much who actually got lynched. Talis was just too calm in the hour leading up to the lynch. For example, what was he doing in between these two posts: + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:08 talismania wrote: I dunno. I'm starting to think my case on austin is actually stronger than my case on dropbear was in the first place to be perfectly honest. However milton and keirathi also brought up good points on dropbear I think. Unless they were just trying to nudge a bandwagon along? Mmm shit.
Where has gonzaw gone? I kinda expect him to be in here cracking the whip near deadline. On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:32 marvellosity wrote: no-one's gonna come with me on austin? I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. This was a crucial 31 minutes. I don't think any of us actually had any idea who would end up being lynched at this time. But what was talis doing? Looks like he was just sitting around waiting for us to lynch a townie. In the last hour before the lynch, he really does nothing productive at all. He just says a bunch of neutralish things that don't really go anywhere. I also have serious problems with this post just after we lynched vivax: Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 07:01 talismania wrote: well here's to hoping I was completely wrong For reference, here is the full extent of his defense on Vivax: Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote: @risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro. Seriously? He says that he hopes he is "completely wrong" about vivax, but he hardly defended Vivax at all. If he really felt strongly about Vivax being town, he should have been positively shouting at people like me/marv/austin/strongandbig to put votes on dropbear instead of vivax, especially seeing as dropbear was supposedly his #1 scumread. But he was just saying useless shit like this: + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:32 marvellosity wrote: no-one's gonna come with me on austin? I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. On July 14 2012 06:54 talismania wrote: argh wtf I don't want to swtich but I will if we need too. On July 14 2012 06:57 talismania wrote: jesus risen why are you so excited? According to what talis has said, he really thought dropbear was scum, and he really thought vivax was town. I was a hell of a lot less sure than talis supposedly was, and even I was more invested in the lynch. All of his posts leading up to the lynch seriously bother me. throws suspicion on easy targets (my townreads)He throws suspicion on a bunch of easy targets: dropbear, austin, risen, s0Lstice, milton. In fact, he threw suspicion onto just about every lynch candidate, and onto nobody that was not a lynch candidate. His reads are just going with the flow. I feel like he is just gonzaw's parrot. He's quite friendly with both gonzaw and marv (people with most thread control IMO). Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:54 talismania wrote: @marv: nice shit. solstice was pretty on point activity-wise in ssb64 despite being kind of wrong the whole game (he did get better late game). He simply hasn't been around this game that much. Very curious to see what he thinks of the austin situation since he claims he can read austin so well. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:57 talismania wrote: ps risen where you at? Gonzaw wrote some great stuff about you and I want to hear your cases/suspicions since I can't recall actually seeing anything from you along those lines yet. does not defend his townreadsHe never makes an against-the-grain townread. In his entire filter, I don't think he defends anybody at all. He supposedly had townreads on vivax, strongandbig, and mattchew, all 3 of which were under fire at some point, and none of which he did any defending for. This is suspicious to me. I have a really good feeling about this case. Can we please lynch talis today? ##Vote talismania I'd just like to note how sciberbia has laid his plan out here. Have you noticed him deviate from his plan of lynching talismania, then pursuing a lynch against gonzaw? He hasn't. I find this incredibly suspicious since town will often deviate from any plans they make whenever new evidence presents itself. It's far more likely for scum to make a plan and then follow it through to completion. Here's a few other examples of him pushing the tali lynch. On July 16 2012 08:53 sciberbia wrote: @s0Lstice Can you look at the cases on talis and reread his filter? I want your opinion on him. I really think we should lynch him.
On July 16 2012 09:02 sciberbia wrote: @gonzaw I'll post my thoughts on s&b next. Please post your most current thoughts on talis. Do you recall sciberbia pushing the Vivax lynch this hard? I sure don't. Shit, I just noticed that the endgame is being posted. I'll just toss this out there and see if I was correct.
lol
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On July 21 2012 06:23 sciberbia wrote: @s0Lstice there was 0% chance of me ever getting lynched after austin flipped.
But it could have made it possible for scum to cast suspicion on you guys and us having doubts about you, which hinders our ability to lynch the actual scum.
Ehmm...actually it may have worked in our favour. Had you claimed on D3 maybe everybody would have sheeped you because you were "confirmed town" and you would have gotten me lynched instead of Mattchew >_>
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Okay, so Dropbear was scum then?
Makes sense, although talis/Mattchew seemed too passive about their buddy almost getting lynched on D1
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If Dropbear was the final scum:
HEY RISEN, MY LAST-MINUTE-CHANCE TO GET DROPBEAR LYNCHED D1 WASN'T "SCUM TRYING TO SAVE HIS BUDDY VIVAX" ANYMORE DOESN'T IT?
We could have lynched all 3 scum in succession >_>
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On July 21 2012 06:32 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 06:30 gonzaw wrote: Okay, so Dropbear was scum then?
Makes sense, although talis/Mattchew seemed too passive about their buddy almost getting lynched on D1 maybe that's why talis did soooo little to push his "top target"
Yeah, that was basically what made me doubt my read on him
IF YOU GUYS HAD JUST READ MY POSTS YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT!
>_>
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lol I mean this:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=64#1279
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On July 21 2012 06:44 Miltonkram wrote: @ Risen
I feel like a pretty decent tell against Mattchew was that he wasn't willing to comment often on player's outside of those he was tunneling. It's an extremely convenient way of playing as scum. That was a pretty major difference I noticed between this game and the LVI game that s0Lstice pointed out.
I feel that a decent tell against Mattchew was everything I wrote about him
Seriously, I don't think ANYBODY read my posts
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On July 21 2012 06:49 sciberbia wrote: I was really impressed that you guys lynched Mattchew on D3 with me and s&b (arguably two most townie-looking) both arguing vehemently in favor of gonzaw instead. well done!
lol at one point I was starting to think "Wait...what if Mattchew is town and this is a wagon on a townie who will flip town and later will get me lynched on D4? >_> "
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Ta Tá!
Fuck you guys for not helping me lynch Dropbear on D1 when he had 5 votes
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Okay, I have to say I'm not feeling like shit this game (as I did in other games I was town) since I managed to get accurate reads, and I think I've cut off my posting a little bit (even though some of them were indeed novels )
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Okay, brb in like 10 hours after reading all QTs
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On July 21 2012 07:05 NoSmurfHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:04 gonzaw wrote:Okay, I have to say I'm not feeling like shit this game (as I did in other games I was town) since I managed to get accurate reads, and I think I've cut off my posting a little bit (even though some of them were indeed novels ) are you kidding? You had 10 pages of filter in an 85 page game lol. Don't kid yourself :p also I found it hilarious you chastised people for not reading your (very hard to read) posts when you weren't reading anything yourself lol. At least be realistic :p
I was reading everything.... ....except the setup related stuff >_>
Seriously, I think there was something in my brain that prevented me from holding information about the setup
Hey! At least I'm posting less, that should be a bonus
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wbg in obs qt: So, you force a guy to get wrong reads. That's not hard, and the easiest person to do this on would have been gonzaw. All of his reads have been wrong all game pretty much (from what I've read.)
Hey! >: ( Apart from thinking Dropbear was likely town at one point, and being suspicious of solstice and Milton at another point, I don't see how "wrong" my reads were...?
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Thank god I was able to read Risen correctly >_> I still had doubts about his alignment because he can do any play as scum and could have done that play as scum, but I didn't see the "obvious" scum benefits in it as if he was actually town.
I thought I played well in D3? I tried to post reasons and reasons for why Mattchew was scum, why Risen was a bad lynch, and why Keirathi was town (all accurate ones), yet nobody seemed to listen to me.
I had more doubts of Milton than Dropbear because of how easy he sheeped Mattchew, which made me think the scum team was desperately trying to get me lynched.
Also, what really made me an "easy target" like everybody was saying in the obs QT? I really didn't get why people were so suspicious of me, I honestly don't.
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On July 21 2012 07:28 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:21 gonzaw wrote:wbg in obs qt: So, you force a guy to get wrong reads. That's not hard, and the easiest person to do this on would have been gonzaw. All of his reads have been wrong all game pretty much (from what I've read.) Hey! >: ( Apart from thinking Dropbear was likely town at one point, and being suspicious of solstice and Milton at another point, I don't see how "wrong" my reads were...? I don't necessarily think that your reads were wrong. You just made so many reads that you were bound to be right occasionally. I posted this before from my notes, but this was just up until the end of day 2: + Show Spoiler +gonzaw
Townie Reads: Vivax, solstice, scib, tali, me; Risen, me; austin,
Scum Reads: Risen, S&B, matt; austin, S&B, me, drop, risen; S&B, tali, austin; Tali, Drop, solstice, matt, risen, me;
Null Reads: marv, austin, Risen;;
Arguments against: Drop, Risen, Milton, matt; matt, Risen; Matt, Risen,
votes: Drop, me, vivax;;tali
You have scum reads in the first 2 days on 9 out of the 13 players. And town reads on over half of the people you had scum reads on. I generally didn't find any individual post of yours hard to keep up with, but overall, you were a trainwreck. You had so many opinions and they changed so wildly and rapidly, that it was easier to just devalue what you were saying most of the time. Not that I ignored it per se, because you did have some good points, but it was just too hard to know what your current opinion was most of the time.
If I have "bad" reads initially...then surely it's better that I changed my mind into better reads later instead of keeping the bad reads, right?
Ever since iGrok's game that's what I'm trying to do, reconsider my reads each time and see if I was wrong or not, and change them accordingly. Yes, my reads on D1 (other than my Vivax read, and well the solstice one which I changed >_>) weren't good, but after N1 (when I suspected talis and backed off S&B and Keirathi and austin) I don't see how I was a "trainwreck"...?
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On July 21 2012 07:32 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:29 gonzaw wrote: Thank god I was able to read Risen correctly >_> I still had doubts about his alignment because he can do any play as scum and could have done that play as scum, but I didn't see the "obvious" scum benefits in it as if he was actually town.
I thought I played well in D3? I tried to post reasons and reasons for why Mattchew was scum, why Risen was a bad lynch, and why Keirathi was town (all accurate ones), yet nobody seemed to listen to me.
I had more doubts of Milton than Dropbear because of how easy he sheeped Mattchew, which made me think the scum team was desperately trying to get me lynched.
Also, what really made me an "easy target" like everybody was saying in the obs QT? I really didn't get why people were so suspicious of me, I honestly don't. You had so many cases. Sooooo manyyyyy casessssss. That and matt's tunneling of you made me suspicious of you both.
Nah that was on D1, after that I didn't have much cases, just "long" thoughts.
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On July 21 2012 07:37 NoSmurfHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:21 gonzaw wrote:wbg in obs qt: So, you force a guy to get wrong reads. That's not hard, and the easiest person to do this on would have been gonzaw. All of his reads have been wrong all game pretty much (from what I've read.) Hey! >: ( Apart from thinking Dropbear was likely town at one point, and being suspicious of solstice and Milton at another point, I don't see how "wrong" my reads were...? the only reason you suspected Mattchew was because of OMGUS. Literally. If you hadn't noticed, you almost died on the previous day, but survived kind of luckily (still not really sure how that happened given that half the townies said Mattchew was town)
No, I was getting suspicious of Mattchew since D2, and even before he made his "case" on me ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=48#958 ) or even before he even FoSed me ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=46#909 ) It had NOTHING to do with OMGUS. Hell I even stated later his FoS on me wasn't my sole reasons for stating that:
I won't get ahead of myself though, I'll try to see if your intents are malicious or not later, but fucking hell they seem so right now to me.
Surely that's the opposite of OMGUS?
Yes, those reads were bad, but they were into 24 hours into D1. I was just posting my thoughts then. I would have actually liked if they completely ignored that post afterwards.
I mean, think of it like this: -By D1, I had 3 scum reads, ALL 3 were wrong. -By D2, I changed my mind about all 3 of them and thought of them as town, which was RIGHT.
Is that "horrible play" like you are making it out to be? I went through a lot of effort in changing those reads, I don't see why I can't even get a little bit of credit for doing so.
Also, some of your opinions were just flat-out bad, especially the mason one. Masons don't claim at the start of d1. You could've been mislynched for this because it's very antitown to say "no one discusses this, masons claim now, and if they claim later they're scummy". The fact is that nowhere in any guide does it say masons must immediately claim. In fact, in many cases it's a waste of the role.
Every time "confirmed town" masons roles have been discussed I've read the same conclusion "it's better they claim on D1 to get confirmed townies". Sorry if I didn't put a lot of thought into it, but for me 2 confirmed townies on D1 beat the hell out of any gambit those masons decide to play later, since 2 confirmed townies on D1 can completely change the game (like they did on C9++ Mafia a while ago).
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=19#367
another post indicating you not reading the thread, yet still posting shit.
I didn't think a bracketed off-topic questions that I added last-second, kind of as a joke, kind of since I didn't actually remember was "posting shit". I actually tried people to ignore it later, but S&B still went against me because of it.
Yes, I'd say this was pretty bad play by me and I apologize.
I still don't see how much of an impact it had on the game, and why making that "bad play" made me suspicious.
When you post the way you did on d1, people can't help but call you scum.
I don't get this. Even then most people supposedly found me suspicious because of D2, not D1.
for most of the game you tunneled townies such as Keirathi and strongandbig.
If by "most of the game" you mean D1+N1. I never thought they were scum AT ALL when I started rereading the thread/filters on D2 (albeit having some little suspicious of Keirathi at some times, but nothing that lasted too long)
In addition you had very large lists of players you found scummy, and very rarely did it seem like you were paring these reads down. Thus if you find 8 players scummy and ultimately 2 of them are actually scum it's not impressive at all given that there are only 3 scum and 12 players besides yourself to begin with.
I don't remember when this happened, could you point it out?
Damn it wbg you seem pissed
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On July 21 2012 07:54 Risen wrote: Whew rereading my filter I'm shocked I wasn't pushed by scum for misusing words. Bus alone wasn't going to get me lynched, but the claim and bus in combination would have gotten me lynched npnp had mattchew not tunneled gonzaw so hard. There were people (townies) in thread who really, REALLY wanted to lynch me (I don't blame them) and still matt stuck to gonzaw for reasons I'm unsure of.
I stand by what I said that you seemed townie and those "bus" instead of "wagon" and your cop claim could have been brushed off as "bad play".
Maybe it was me but if people had read your filter this game, and took into account other games where you were scum they would have figured out you were town, or at least not be that sure to kill you and give you another chance.
I mean, even it townies make "bad plays" it's not "oh if the scum team is competent they'll get misslynched 100%". If other townies can get good reads then even if the scum team is "competent" they can't just make a townie change their read if he finds it accurate.
That's why I was kind of shocked I was being pushed so much (my "bad plays"=/="scum"), and Risen and Keirathi too (Keirathi for his outburst against Risen and his self-vote).
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On July 21 2012 08:08 NoSmurfHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 08:06 gonzaw wrote:On July 21 2012 07:54 Risen wrote: Whew rereading my filter I'm shocked I wasn't pushed by scum for misusing words. Bus alone wasn't going to get me lynched, but the claim and bus in combination would have gotten me lynched npnp had mattchew not tunneled gonzaw so hard. There were people (townies) in thread who really, REALLY wanted to lynch me (I don't blame them) and still matt stuck to gonzaw for reasons I'm unsure of. I stand by what I said that you seemed townie and those "bus" instead of "wagon" and your cop claim could have been brushed off as "bad play". Maybe it was me but if people had read your filter this game, and took into account other games where you were scum they would have figured out you were town, or at least not be that sure to kill you and give you another chance. I mean, even it townies make "bad plays" it's not "oh if the scum team is competent they'll get misslynched 100%". If other townies can get good reads then even if the scum team is "competent" they can't just make a townie change their read if he finds it accurate. That's why I was kind of shocked I was being pushed so much (my "bad plays"=/="scum"), and Risen and Keirathi too (Keirathi for his outburst against Risen and his self-vote). I think the reason you were being pushed was because legitimately many of the things you were saying were antitown. Also the examples I listed were merely examples. Your reads changed later but given that your filter was 10 pages long I don't think many people truly knew how your thought process changed. Sometimes it's just difficult for people to read that much. (you should know, you didn't read the OP :p)
I tried being as transparent as I could with my thought process. By D2 it should have been obvious that by reading the thread and filters I changed my mind about lots of things. I mean, I spent like 4-5 hours reading filters and the thread and making big-ass posts where I basically change my mind about Keirathi, S&B, austin, sciberbia, etc. I was pissed off since it did seem people didn't even read my posts. Not my filter but my posts (as I'm posting them).
My filter wasn't that large initially by D2. I started posting A LOT on D3 since I was going to be a misslynch and I HAD to convince people I was innocent (by trying to contribute as much as possible, put my thoughts about lots of things, etc). Apparently nobody read those posts either or even took them into account
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On July 21 2012 08:09 NoSmurfHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 08:08 Risen wrote:On July 21 2012 08:06 gonzaw wrote:On July 21 2012 07:54 Risen wrote: Whew rereading my filter I'm shocked I wasn't pushed by scum for misusing words. Bus alone wasn't going to get me lynched, but the claim and bus in combination would have gotten me lynched npnp had mattchew not tunneled gonzaw so hard. There were people (townies) in thread who really, REALLY wanted to lynch me (I don't blame them) and still matt stuck to gonzaw for reasons I'm unsure of. I stand by what I said that you seemed townie and those "bus" instead of "wagon" and your cop claim could have been brushed off as "bad play". Maybe it was me but if people had read your filter this game, and took into account other games where you were scum they would have figured out you were town, or at least not be that sure to kill you and give you another chance. I mean, even it townies make "bad plays" it's not "oh if the scum team is competent they'll get misslynched 100%". If other townies can get good reads then even if the scum team is "competent" they can't just make a townie change their read if he finds it accurate. That's why I was kind of shocked I was being pushed so much (my "bad plays"=/="scum"), and Risen and Keirathi too (Keirathi for his outburst against Risen and his self-vote). This brings to mind another possibility. I mean shit, matt could have pushed a lynch on me EASY. Then Keir is the next to go no questions asked in my mind. I just can't wrap my head around why matt buddied me. All it did was make me think he was scum. and that's the reason I believe scum could've won at any point :p Anyone could've been lynched given the correct type of push. DB had a low chance of winning but he didn't try. So we'll never know. However if we ignore these possibilities (and I'm glad you're not ignoring them) then we're blind to future eventualities. A win might be a win but if you can't reproduce that win in the future it doesn't matter much, right?
If I was still alive there was no way I'd allow a lynch on Keirathi, or hell even Risen before Dropbear (I even posted it in that "lynch sequence" before), even if the "Mattchew wagon" didn't happen to "confirm" Keirathi/Milton/etc
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Hey wbg, could you make some individual analysis (even if short) of each of us? At least when you calm down a little bit
I seriously don't think I played as bad as you said Hell I was so proud of myself that I had my scumread on talis correct by D2 and my scumread on Mattchew correct by D3 I didn't really care about Dropbear in D3 to be honest, I just desperately wanted to stay alive and lynch Mattchew, so I may have spouted senseless stuff that I didn't even read (like flip-flopping on Milton, etc) and not really focused on finding the remaining scum.
Other than on D1 I didn't even "tunneled" any townie or disrupted the thread like I used to do as town, I dunno why you think I played so shitty wbg. I derped with the setup, but if people ignore what I say about the setup then it's not that big of a deal. Plus there's no scum motivation at all to derp about the setup (seriously, there isn't), specially if it's not to "justify posting" since I already had pages and pages of posts, I didn't need to "post" about the setup to "appear I was contributing" or something.
Also I think I played well on D3, at least with everybody FoSing me and not listening to me at all (again, other than the setup derps).
I still want someone to tell me why my play on D2 regarding talis was so scummy...? Hell if anything I was the first one to put suspicion on him (on N1) so I didn't really get it. I thought getting correct reads on S&B, austin, Mattchew, Risen and Keirathi was more important at that time, since (like I said) I didn't think I'd change my mind about talis.
I still stand that even if Risen's cop claim was "bad", if one read his filter and analyzed his play correctly you could figure out he wasn't scum, specially after Mattchew flipped scum (for that reason I posted earlier). At all his "bad" cop claim kind of cleared him in my eyes even more if he hadn't made that claim (but well maybe that was just me).
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On July 21 2012 21:49 s0Lstice wrote:I'll chip in with my 2 cents gonzaw. My example will be this post: Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:15 gonzaw wrote:Disclamer: This is the "list" of scummy guys I'm not that comfortable lynching and I'd like people's opinions on them (I think it's likely there is at least 1 scum in here...hell maybe all are scum >_>) About DropBear:I already posted what I think of him: + Show Spoiler [Thoughts on DropBear] +On July 13 2012 04:27 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 23:35 strongandbig wrote:On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak.
Sorry bro, but that's kind of the nature of the game I guess - any post could be made either by scum or by town? Do you have any suggestions as to how to be more townie? Meanwhile, I feel like there's something to be read in Gonzaw's post about Derpbear - I'm just not sure what. Dropbera accuses Gonzaw of tryharding overmuch, when he's just Gonzawing - then Gonzaw attacks him in a way that I'm pretty sure either exaggerates or straight up mischaracterizes dropper's tiny filter. hmmmmmmmmmmm...... I'll think some more about this later tonight. Gonzaw, have you and DropBurp ever played together before? The thing is his behaviour struck me as odd, and I wanted to "get the ball rolling" to see what happened.. Apparently nobody even commented on it, which was what I was expecting to. I was not confident in Dropbear being scum, but I got a feeling he could. Him later just discrediting my FoS, and general aggressiveness doesn't make me very comfortable FoSing him, since it's always more likely townies that do such thing; although I'm still wary of him buddying up to marv there and jumping on the Vivax bandwagon. *sigh* However that's not decisive evidence, yet he's still one of my candidates for scum. I'll reread some stuff and respond to other stuff later (just want to have the unvote right now so I don't have a vote and another one later, and so this post isn't huge) ##Unvote: DropBear About Risen:On July 12 2012 09:49 Risen wrote:On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote:So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: On July 12 2012 07:56 Risen wrote: Welcome to ICBINTMM in which Risen does not post in caps or call anyone an idiot THE ENTIRE GAME. Stay tuned to see if this actually happens...... On July 12 2012 07:33 strongandbig wrote: sup bros i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room. Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated On July 12 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote: alight lets do this.
no zentor means no policy lynch based on names for me. You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: On July 12 2012 08:05 austinmcc wrote: Screw the number and size of posts. I'm not a scientist, but it looks like talismania's been town --> scum --> town --> scum --> town. Therefore, he's scum this game.
I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls. But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Any particular reason you're trying to push something on people with a low post count in thread so early? Didn't even know lurking was possible at this point. So you're either an extremely eager townie or scum looking for easy targets to push early. I already posted why this was weird. He came out of nowhere just to defend himself against me, but doesn't say anything at all about it, just posted a very apparent tautology without saying anything. Another thing I found weird was: On July 12 2012 16:38 Risen wrote:On July 12 2012 16:29 Vivax wrote: There's no link to a voting thread in the OP methinks.Add pls?
##Vote active lurk strongandbig Yes, this is going places. I like your thinking. I just like your style, my dude. You have my vote! ##vote: Vivax On July 13 2012 02:55 Risen wrote: I've had experience with Mattchew being scum, as we were both godfathers who flipped vigis in some other game I can't remember the name of. I think he's WAY, WAY, WAY more active and useful this game ALREADY than he was that game. He voted Vivax (I assume) because he didn't state why he voted S&B all of a sudden. However, in that 2nd post of his, Vivax already had 2 votes (marv+Dropbear) and Vivax already explained why he voted/unvoted S&B.....yet he doesn't comment anything about it. If he's town, he knows his vote is the most important thing he has (unless he's Awesome Vigilante with Homing Heat-seeking missiles that 100% target scum), so one would think he'd pay attention to things regarding the guy he's voting. Him softly-accusing Dropbear without actually taking a stance in the subject here: On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote:On July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote:This is silly. On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). This isn't going to happen and would just waste time.
On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. And his seemingly apologetic post here (that again is just an excuse for him not to do anything) On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote:On July 12 2012 15:14 sciberbia wrote: @keirathi, @Dropbear, @Risen Do you guys have any suspicions yet? Maybe you could comment on my post about risen/marv or about gonzaw's accusations of risen/strongandbig/Mattchew? This thread is too quiet for my liking -- please share some of your thoughts. I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. Make me suspicious of him However, his "kind" attitude and way he's posting make me wary. Like, the way he posts is very weird and would certainly call people's attention....but isn't it too obvious perhaps? Like, it seems he doesn't really care how people see him, which doesn't make me that confident in thinking he's scum. But meh, I'd appreciate people's thoughts on him About Milkton:On July 12 2012 17:39 Miltonkram wrote:Hey everybody I'm finally able to get in the thread. I'll make this my quick introductory post and then get to scumhunting. I find that policy talk naturally transitions into a scumhunt over the course of D1. I think we all know the major points of policy that get talked about, and I tend to take each policy on a case by case basis anyway, so I won't waste much time on policy talk other than to say that talismania's proposal is pretty obviously a bad idea. First things first, here is a list of games I've played in as well as links to my filters from those games. I think I'll be starting all my games with a list like this because it helps me improve. If I'm scum, I have to avoid playing closely to my scum meta. If I'm town, I put pressure on myself to make good reads. The list is spoilered so as not to take up too much space. + Show Spoiler + This post seems fluffy as fuck, specially the 1st part. The "list of game I've played" is filler as well, it doesn't add anything else to the game Even after posting that he doesn't do anything later (is he still "busy" or something?) However it's his first fucking post so it's not like we can get a meaningful read out of it Well fuck, another wall of text So....I'll try to keep things a little bit separate and post my actual "scum reads" in the next post (it's just S&B+austin+Keirathi anyways....yeah SPOILERS whatever). The portion on Risen, you cite some posts and explain how you think they are weird. As I'm reading along, I'm processing your indictment of him, matching it to my own thoughts. Then I get to the bolded portion, and I see you don't really have any convictions on this at all. I had a lot of problems with this posting style...it's like a stream of consciousness. You open the brain valve and spill a bunch of stuff out and then turn it off X minutes later and hit post. The result is you present a lot of ideas, many of which you counter by yourself, finished off by a conclusion that has lost all meaning because it has no foundation to stand on. That back and forth you do with yourself needs to happen in your head. You need to arrive at a single endpoint prior to posting, and present evidence that supports it. If you can't do this, then you probably shouldn't be writing a wall of text on this player at this time. The more I saw you doing this, the more I wanted to tune you out. I really had to force myself to grind through your stuff to find where you stood on things. I seriously love your effort though...if you could find a way that works for you to narrow your posting down such that is concise and representative of your strongest convictions, then it would both make it easier for people to read you, and make it easier for town to get some use out of your best reads.
But that was on D1, why would anybody read my D1 reads if I changed them?
At that point I was trying to post whatever was in my mind to get some discussion going (i.e post some "suspicious" stuff some people have been doing to get people to notice them and make conclusions of their own). As I recall, nobody complained when I did that at the time >_>
Because to be honest, the alternative was marv shitting on Vivax and solstice, and Mattchew shitting on sciberbia, which I didn't agree with at the time.
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Was Risen's claim that scummy?
I thought the fact that he "confirmed" 2 townies as town increasing the chance that he himself or his scumbuddy is lynched would "confirm" it as a legit claim since it wouldn't make any sense as scum.
Like I said the only way it would make sense if he was scum was a Risen+solstice scumteam (so he'd be protecting his buddy by that point), but Risen's behaviour was townie, at least compared to games like LIII
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On July 22 2012 05:18 Promethelax wrote: Gonzaw:
Speaking as someone who has played with you and watched you play I'd like to throw in my opinion here. You need to use the huge amount of effort you have to do something more productive for town you add so much to the game that, at times, it is unreadable.
You need to post less not more.
I would love to watch you in a game where you gave yourself a posting limitation of some kind and forced yourself to make concise reads. You essentially post your thought process and notes in the thread I think that instead you should write all that up, put it in word and give town the outlines of your thoughts on some people if you could consolidate those thoughts into a single post and, when you had new thoughts make another complete post with all of your thoughts that would be more beneficial to town.
You post so much that every good read you have is brought down by the sheer weight of your posting sometimes it is easiest to just ignore you, even when you are right, remember: not everyone shares your incredible amount of both time and dedication and when a thread is thirty pages longer at night than it was in the morning something needs to be skipped over.
Yes, I know what you are talking about and I know I "overposted" at times. I tend to do that as town yes (like in that MTG mafia game we played together).
The thing is that I didn't see it would be seen as scummy this game instead of "just very bad town" like usual >_> <_<
If people think I'm town and follow me I don't really mind overposting as long as when they start following me I have correct reads Most games they think I'm town but I have bad reads (or just don't follow me), but in this game I had good reads but they thought I was scum (by D2 forward, ignore D1 >_>).
Hmm, yeah, I'll try not to overpost and do what you and others said though. The thing is that when I'm not sure about someone I want people to post what they think about him so I can change my mind, etc. If I keep everything a secret until I make a "case" or something, then if that read was wrong I may not be able to change it, while I could have changed it if I posted all my "thoughts" and people told me why they were wrong.
For instance, that's what happened with austin and S&B, I posted what I thought of them, other players told me why my thoughts were wrong, and it convinced me to change my mind. Had I not made the huge "cases" against austin or S&B and just kept quiet and said "yeah austin scum" or something, then people may have not posted why austin/S&B were town (or why my thoughts on them were wrong) and I may have kept believing they were scum.
I guess a simple "what do you think of S&B/austin?" would suffice, but if people don't see the specific reasons I'm suspicious of them they can't respond to those reasons and tell me why those reasons are wrong.
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