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Before going into the talis/solstice stuff, a question for sciberbia:
On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote:
1) talismania: I really want to lynch him.
2) gonzaw: I have a few minor points against him, but other than that it's gut feeling. He reminds me a lot of mafia Xatalos from NMM XV. gonzaw and talis are linked as scumbuddies in my mind. I want to see talis flip red before we lynch gonzaw.
Why is it you think me and talis are "linked as scumbuddies"? Other than that what "gut feeling" do you get about me?
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EBWOP:
Disclaimer: I will look into talis/solstice/Dropbear, but I doubt I will today, it's too late now (almost 1am basically) and I'm too tired and I'm still reading the thread rechecking filters every time an accusation is made to see if its content is acceptable or not and shit.
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Well, just one little thing about S&B's case on Dropbear:
For one, I now think you are town because of it. The way you pushed it makes me think you were actually paying attention to Dropbear's filter and not just skimming it to find something scummy about him to justify your vote.
Plus some other little stuff that made my gut think you are town
Other than that, I have a question here (playing a little bit of devil's advocate):
S&B wrote:
I contend that in general DropBear is not following the spirit of his pregame advice, even though he is mostly (but not nearly always) following the letter of it.
What if Dropbear was just unable to control his own play to reflect that advice he stated?
For instance, I think I could have posted a similar advice (consolidate posts, don't overpost, etc), but I don't think I could really force myself to follow it (man just look at my posts this game...it's like an addiction  ).
If Dropbear was town, there would be a chance that he just posted that advice to indeed appear pro-town (and establish his innocence), or even if he actually believed it, but didn't have the willpower to follow it himself the way you stated it.
With that in mind, does that change your read on him or not?
/devil's advocate
Finished reading the thread from where I left off:
Hmm, I'm not finding Dropbear very suspicious. His defense of S&B's case and Milton seemed pretty good, some of the points against him are pretty bad (like talis accusing him of being scum because Dropbear shitted on his plan at one point), and his case against solstice seems legit.
I may be looking this in a biased light since I'm getting the feeling both talis and solstice are scum, but I haven't really read their filters yet so I could reconsider it.
Argg there are some tiny stuff that doesn't make me that comfortable with a talis lynch (part of his defense really, the reaction he had mostly, and some scum motivation I don't really find in some of the stuff he said). I may reconsider a solstice lynch instead, but I need to reread their filters first.
Actually I read some other stuff (from austin or sciberbia I think) and I may not feel the same way right now and may actually want to lynch him.
I'll get down to this after reading their filters (damn this shit is tiring).
Things that definitely need to happen (IMO) before making any sort of sure assessment today:
- solstice should read what I wrote about S&B, what sciberbia, austin and others posted about S&B, and post what effect it had on his read of S&B and see how he reacts
- Risen needs to stop acting like a baby and do something today (check my other posts regarding this)
- I think Mattchew should explain himself better and explain some of his reads, like the one on sciberbia better (not uber necessary though).
- talis should try to establish his innocence (if he's town) by being active, posting more opinions considering he should realize he'll likely be today's lynch (optional, only if he's town lol)
- Keirathi needs to come and do shit
About that last one: don't only come up with a "case" on someone, park your vote and just stay around, but comment on all the important discussions going on about certain players (dropbear, S&B, Mattchew, talis of course, solstice, etc) and on the specific discussions and points/accusations made and post your thoughts about them.
For instance, what do you think of solstice's FoS of S&B and everybody else having a town read on him?
What about Mattchew's "blunder" from D1, his explanation, my thoughts on it, and all the shit said?
Stuff like that is stuff I'd like you to post your thoughts about. Not just post thoughts about EVERYTHING that happened in the history of the universe, but posting thoughts on the matters you think are important.
I'd greatly help me (and other townies) get an accurate read on you
I'd guess I'll expect the same from Milton, since I don't really have a good read on him.
I have one other thing to say though:
sciberbia, austin, you are so fucking town it hurts.
For fucks sake the effort you are putting in this game is astonishing, like even when I try to read your posts with a "okay let's assume this guy is scum or could be scum, what agenda is he pushing?" mind I just can't do it taking all the stuff you go through and all the effort you put in getting accurate reads, sharing them and getting info out of people.
If any of you is scum then you are playing fucking great and I wouldn't mind losing to you.
So congratz on that. 
Okay I'll go to bed now
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Well, that compliment should really be made after you answer this:
On July 16 2012 12:41 gonzaw wrote:Before going into the talis/solstice stuff, a question for sciberbia: Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote:
1) talismania: I really want to lynch him.
2) gonzaw: I have a few minor points against him, but other than that it's gut feeling. He reminds me a lot of mafia Xatalos from NMM XV. gonzaw and talis are linked as scumbuddies in my mind. I want to see talis flip red before we lynch gonzaw. Why is it you think me and talis are "linked as scumbuddies"? Other than that what "gut feeling" do you get about me?
I found you pushing for my lynch there quite odd, since you never mentioned similar suspicions about me before.
But I can't shake that feeling that if you actually tried to cast suspicion on me as scum...you wouldn't do it as half-assed as that (just saying "they are linked scumbuddies").
I don't think someone like you would go against someone like me based on those reasons alone, without actually trying to cast more suspicion on me (if that was your initial goal) or discrediting me somehow.
I still want to hear your answer though.
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EBWOP:
Not "pushing for my lynch" but "finding me suspicious".
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@sciberbia: Okay, if talis flips scum I'll address those points if they still bother you. Meh even if he flips town as well, but I'll address them later basically since I don't have much time to be honest (and the lynch is in 3 hours right? the mayority needs 6 votes and there are only 5 on talis right now).
Okay I'll continue reading the thread
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On July 17 2012 05:04 Keirathi wrote:
Also @sciberbia: why am I not your top candidate anymore? You repeatedly stated at the end of Day1 that I was your biggest scum read, but you were going to consolidate onto Vivax just to avoid the no-lynch, which is fine.
But by this point, I had already done all the "towntelling" things that you give matt poins for pointing out in your Matt defense post.
What happened to change your mind when I really didn't do anything during the night and was out of town for basically the entire day?
Can you comment on other issues? What about solstice, S&B, Mattchew, Risen, and all the stuff that was discussed about them?
Of course who you want to lynch is a very important one
(I'd like sciberbia to answer that though, doesn't hurt anybody)
About talis:
Before his "plan", I actually found him kind of town. He posted that graph of posts from all his last 5 games to "check his meta", and well that seems like a lot of effort (don't know if he did it in pre-game though). Plus the tone of some of the things he said and just a little gut feeling of the way he interacted with people made me think he was town at that point (and I get a little townie feels right now, although I don't know if I should take them into account or not).
Hmm, the "plan" itself didn't seem scummy in my mind. It did spark some discussion, and to be honest I didn't really see the plan as "the most anti-town thing" in the way that I could see him posting it as town.
His "gauging reactions" is null basically.
The thing is that from that point onwards his play totally decays. He spends way too much time talking about the validity of his "plan", and spends way too much time just prodding Dropbear with the same stuff (Dropbear insta-voting Vivax).
After that he doesn't seem to care in my mind.
Responding to unrelated stuff he never follows (like telling marv about his "nice shit" on solstice, telling Risen to post his thoughts about what I said of him), having an "I don't care" attitude (when he posts thoughts about Milton and austin for instance, and the tone of his posts) and even having that attitude with his reads (like the ones in the post where he voted Dropbear) give me that feeling.
The thing about his play decaying is that it didn't seem like he'd play like that at all once the game started.
Once the game started and he started to have discussions about the setup, and the way he responded to people and stuff I had the feeling he'd keep up with that kind of play the whole game, which is why I didn't find him suspicious.
But having his play decay so fast is worrying, since it makes it seem his "townie early D1" feel was just a façade.
He seems to not care at all at the time of the lynch and after that (I've already posted about this on N1). He doesn't care about lynching Dropbear it seems, he's just there, asking some questions, blending in, doing shit and posting one-liners.
That lack of effort and care about the lynch is damning. I'm trying to think if I'm wrong and he could have done that as town but I don't see many possibilities, specially because of this:
I was at work, working. And refreshing the thread. I agree with you and gonzaw though I should have done more to get dropbear lynched but the way the wagon completely left me and formed up on him threw me and I was doubting myself, especially after last game where I just tunneled HiroPro and more or less cost town the game because of it.
That's the excuse he makes for his behaviour last day.
That's no excuse to not care about the lynch. If he was actually at work refreshing the thread, it only means he doesn't have time to reread stuff (thread+filters), and think too much about things.
That would actually indicate that his play should be more "reactive". As in, if he's constantly refreshing the thread, then his posts should be more of a reaction to what's posted each time he refreshes.
As in, if someone votes Vivax or Dropbear he'd try to react to that, specially if the D1 lynch is at stake and he's just playing like I said he'd be playing.
Even if he started to doubt Dropbear being scum (which he didn't show at all), at least he would have been more "anxious" and "nervous" considering the lynch wasn't decided until 3 minutes before the deadline.
Any townie would be nervous by that point, specially if they were only paying attention to the thread by refreshing it constantly and not reading filters/etc.
I can't see him doing that as town.
Not only that, but his contributions from D2 are him either:
-Just defending himself
-Shitting on Mattchew
The lack of effort is damning as hell. He doesn't even try. Hell he hasn't even posted at all for 24 hours or so I think.
I find it more and more likely that he's scum knowing he was found and just not caring anymore.
I get paranoid that he'd even act like this as town though, but hopefully is not the case.
tl;dr: Talis is scum unless I'm paranoid about him playing like shit as town.
About solstice I'm not really sure right now since him going against Risen seems legitimate for me, if I have time before leaving I'll reread him.
There seems that a lot of people are treading to a modkill and that's not good.
I'm leaving right at the deadline (I have to be in uni 30 minutes later), and I don't know if the flip will be "instantaneous" or not so I may not be around when tails flips, and I don't know when I'll come back (at most 3-4 hours from then, but I don't really know).
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On July 17 2012 06:06 Keirathi wrote:
I feel like disappearing is more of a frustrated townie trait than a frustrated scum one.
That's what made me a little bit paranoid, but the thing is that there is almost no indication that he was frustrated.
Take for instance a town VE going to be misslynched where he ragequits in frustration (basically every time he's town ).
He always makes an initial effort to change the lynch off him, he always tries to at least reason a little bit with the people accusing him; and if he finds his efforts futile, then he quits in frustration.
To quit in frustration it means you actually have to try to be frustrated in the first place, at least by justifying it in-game (if he's frustrated because his cat died and he sees everybody accusing him it would be another thing, but he hasn't said anything about it so I'll disregard it).
I can't see someone quitting in frustration if there is no reason to be so frustrated in the first place, and if the first thing you do is quit before even trying to change the tide of the game (i.e not getting lynched, or hoping to catch some scum even if you are) then you are not likely town at all since no townie would do that.
Also:
On July 16 2012 05:09 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 04:58 sciberbia wrote:
Just woke up. I'm a little disappointed that my case for talis hasn't received more support. His defense was reasonable, but I still feel pretty strongly that he is scum.
@gonzaw
What do you think of talis right now? Would you be happy lynching him today?
so... what still makes you think I'm scum?
On July 16 2012 05:29 talismania wrote:
Actually, Dropbear what do you think of me now?
These don't look like posts from someone "ragequitting".
He's asking people and supposedly expecting their answers, you don't "ragequit" before you even hear them or acknowledge them.
I don't see him quitting as "frustrated" at all.....but I'm paranoid that he's busy or some shit and doesn't care or something.
Hopefully (like I said) that's not the case, and there are other tiny bits that make me think talis is scum.
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So talis has 6 votes only, the minimum amount to lynch
If someone unvotes talis you better have a fucking good reason to, since you'll force NL.
Keirathi what are you planning to do? And will you answer those questions I presented to you? (I.e I want your thoughts on other issues, not just talis/sciberbia).
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Well damn, I wasn't expecting that.
Fuck I'm not too confident on this one right now, but it's either talis or NL.
Hmm, damn.
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On July 17 2012 06:51 Keirathi wrote:
Bleh catch 22. Have to vote but I don't particularly feel good about the tali lynch. I don't think its impossible that he is scum, but I'm decently positive he's not.
I don't really think Drop or s0lstice are great cases either. So who the eff to vote for. My gut read on a throwaway vote, or the popular read with no conviction?!
Talis is already set to be lynched with 1 more vote than the minumum.
If you vote talis or not it won't have an impact unless someone unvotes him.
Hmm, I don't know since your vote won't have an impact on anybody else either.
talis, why didn't you care about the game at all ever since you started defending yourself about the plan?
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I'd say go with your own read if it won't matter, at least it will mean you
Mattchew, Risen: Are you scum?
Mattchew wtf those posts you make are so scummy at times. You park your vote on talis, go AFK for the rest of the day and now you show up all "confident" and still lacking words about anything else.
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EBWOP:
I'd say go with your own read if it won't matter, at least it will mean you actually think that person is scum and it would make it official (somehow).
The only reason I could see for you to vote talis (if you are not convinced) is if you think there might be a mass-unvote to force NL and you don't want that
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Damn I dunno
Ehm...I think the time is over already, but I wouldn't like a NL but rather lynch Mattchew right now.
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There was a thing that made me think talis was scum that I decided to take a gamble on
If talis flips town, I don't really know if sciberbia is scum because of it....since he'd be pretty ballsy as fuck to lead the lynch like that.
If talis flips scum, then no worries.
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LOL I actually thought sciberbia or someone got a scum check on him (as cop), but that may seem impossible since he's GF
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Mattchew D3 lynch I say (seemed like bus and you are scummy as fuck)
Risen could be, he hasn't done shit.
Solstice/Keirathi/Milton for trying to divert the lynch, although Keirathi's last posts seemed kind of townie, specially once he knew talis was already dead.
Milton could be?
Anyways good luck with that I'm leaving.
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On July 17 2012 07:04 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 07:03 gonzaw wrote:
LOL I actually thought sciberbia or someone got a scum check on him (as cop), but that may seem impossible since he's GF Yea the thought crossed my mind too for why he was pushing so hard.
Maybe he actually is a cop but was actually Insane ? >_>
Anyways doesn't matter and I don't want to out sciberbia's role (so scib ignore this please).
Yep I can't see austin or sciberbia as scum right now.
Also dunno about Dropbear though
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On July 17 2012 08:21 sciberbia wrote:@gonzaw I have not considered all your setup discussion scummy as of yet, but now you're blatantly contradicting yourself. Seriously dude, wtf is with this? Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 00:31 gonzaw wrote:
So Cops....check away, any Red check you get will be legit (no Miller claimed and you are guaranteed to be sane).
Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 07:05 gonzaw wrote:
Maybe he actually is a cop but was actually Insane ? >_>
lol excuse me I didn't spend 5 minutes reading the OP again before making that question after I waited MORE than I should have (remember I said I was going away right at the deadline, yet I waited a little bit more) (also it was obviously a joke).
If you still think I'm "tali's scumbuddy" then post your actual suspicions (if they changed at all from yesterday). I hoped my contributions would confirm me as town, but well I can't have everything.
On July 17 2012 10:02 Mattchew wrote:
The normally long winded Gonzaw gives no reasoning for why he thinks I bussed but is more than willing to put that idea out in the thread
This is the kind of stuff that makes me suspicious of you Matt.
"gonzaw gives no reasoning" fuck you Mattchew don't lie I wrote a Bible about you:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=41#818
You just didn't do shit today other than park your vote on talis based on his case on Dropbear being bad (and you only mentioned a little stuff about him not pushing Dropbear).
That's it you didn't do any other shit.
What's worrying (just like I found about talis) is that you didn't play like this AT ALL early D1.
Here, compare these posts:
On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote:
Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit
On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote:
Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak.
On July 12 2012 22:43 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 22:41 marvellosity wrote:
Matt, while you're here - what do you make of gonzaw? He seems to be making stuff out of nothing, but it could just be provoking conversation.
I guess normally at the start of day 1 he has setup shit to ramble on about, which he does not here. he is trying really really hard, and once again he is explaining his entire thought process. I dont think i have ever seen him as scum, but this is the exactly how he plays as town
On July 13 2012 03:27 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 03:23 marvellosity wrote:
What do you see in Vivax that makes you think he might be town? his effort and his not giving a fuck style
On July 13 2012 07:05 Mattchew wrote:
Gonzaw I strongly (pun intended) believe the strong is town and I do not want to lynch him today. He says stupid stuff, like "Sorry bro, but that's kind of the nature of the game I guess - any post could be made either by scum or by town? " but he also posts about his gut reads, which while they can be faked, I don't think he did. I think gut reads are very townie
On July 14 2012 03:30 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 02:49 gonzaw wrote:On July 14 2012 02:43 Mattchew wrote:On July 13 2012 17:01 DropBear wrote:On July 13 2012 09:07 Vivax wrote:I'm not comfortable with a tali lynch. Comparing filters I found Miltonkrams filter to be fairly empty and he targetted the easy target. He posted 1. A list of his games to make himself available for a metacheck. 2. He comments on Talis plan being bad, and that being reason enough to be scummy. My impression of talis plan gone bad so far: It's a magnet for players with no/bad cases to have a reason to post something accusing. The downside is that it might have triggered policy discussion and a lot of chaos, while promising a lot of clarity by forcing players to take a hard stance, so talis plan was risky from a town perspective, and I'd leave it at that. He said it worked in bastard mafia, let's leave it at that: It won't be used here. 3. On July 13 2012 06:35 Miltonkram wrote:
I don't find the fact that he came up with the plan scummy, I find the amount of time he's spent defending himself from the fallout of his plan scummy. I think he's spent 3 or 4 posts just defending himself.
Defending oneself isn't scummy. If it's really the only thing you do, then yes, but Milton already knows that it's not the only thing tali is doing: On July 13 2012 06:48 Miltonkram wrote:
EBWOP: I didn't notice that talismania was actually putting a fair amount of pressure on austinmcc. I still find the amount of time he's spent talking about his proposal scummy, but he has put a small amount of pressure on players. still seems to firmly believe in a scum tali. He doesn't have any other reads. He comments on Keirathi and sciberbia being unreadable to him. I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense. I'll defend Milton for you  He started late so hasn't posted as much. We knew that was happening before the games started. Your point 1 directly helps people get a read on him. This is extremely positive town play. In your point 2, you say how the plan allows pointless posting and how that doesn't help town, but then turn around and lambast Milton for pointing this out. Contradiction much? There is no real pressure from talismania on austin at all. Milton is right, talismania IS only defending the plan and not committing to accusations. Three reads is enough for day 1, no? Posting your read on every single person is just clutter. You should be less obvious in defending your buddy. SCUM TEAM
Vivax
talismania gonzaw, scum don't usually do this. so i don't want to vote dropbear. Scum don't usually defend other guys and accuse people....? Could you be a little bit more specific? What about the rest of his posts? Scum don't usually defend people with good reasoning, like i think drop did. Also, he is aggressive and willing to take on the loudest person here (you) which means he's not afraid of the attention, another thing scum is unlikely to do
With these:
On July 16 2012 03:10 Mattchew wrote:
Drop you should be voting Talis with me, what do you think makes solstice more scummy than Talis?
On July 16 2012 03:18 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 03:14 DropBear wrote:On July 16 2012 03:10 Mattchew wrote:
Drop you should be voting Talis with me, what do you think makes solstice more scummy than Talis? In your case on tali you mention him having similar behaviour to gonzaw, but you haven't written a case on gonzaw. What differentiates them exactly? Some of it is good, yes. Tali is still dodgy to me but then tbh so are you. Mostly because I am unsure of gonzaw, and I can only vote/lynch 1 person today
On July 16 2012 05:42 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 03:43 talismania wrote:
also wtf happened to your suspicions of sciberbia - what made you change your mind there? still suspicious, just sure of you, nice scummy deflection btw and risen, do you not agree with my case on Talis? What do you find wrong with it or townie about him
On July 16 2012 07:06 Mattchew wrote:
S&B your thoughts on talis? I want him dead
Early D1 you were pro-town as fuck. Every time someone posted something "interesting" (tali's plan, S&B's post about marv) you commented on it.
You posted your reads on people without being asked if they conflicted reads from others, and you justified them.
You were active, but not only that you cared about what was happening since you were actively interacting with people regarding different matters, posting thoughts and stuff.
But later (after your D1 fiasco) you just parked your vote on talis, and spent 80% of your posts just going "what do you think of talis" or "vote talis" or "I want talis dead" or "talis talis talis".
The difference is astonishing and I don't know why you changed your play like that in the same fucking game.
What about all the million of things we were talking about? About solstice, about sciberbia, about S&B, about Dropbear, etc ,etc? If this had been early-D1-Mattchew you would have commented on those issues and given a justified response, however D2-Mattchew would just go "lynch talis".
Talis' flip has nothing to do with your own play, you can easily bus him, place your vote on him and that's it (you weren't actively trying to get him lynched, since saying "look at my case lynch him" is not an active way to get people to vote for your scumread, hell it even slightly resembles what talis did on Dropbear).
For instance, compare all the shit sciberbia/austin wrote about talis each time and what you wrote and you can see the difference.
"Bussing" scum is not a justification for not doing shit, and that's what I find odd
The fact that you find me suspicious and case doubt on me without saying shit about it (even when you found me town early D1) is concerning as well
Oh yeah I didn't even touch your D1 "blunder" but I already posted about it.
Right now you are not giving a fuck, and that makes me suspicious of you because you easily don't give a fuck as scum and because you did actually give a fuck early D1 yet your behaviour completely changed.
Pre-Edit: I'm still kind of torn since it's possible you just were content with how things were going on D2 and thus didn't see the need to do shit; but I still find it odd since that's not what you were doing in early D1 at all
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EPT
