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so the vast majority of krathi's filter reads pretty scummy to me still, but him calling out derpberp for calling him town puts me in enough doubt that i dont really want to nuke him yet
##unvote
i was leaning townie on risen because of his trolovote on vivek, it seemed town - but now that i reread his filter there are a few things that give me pause. specifically, his "i hunt for whole scum teams" thing is pretty turr'ble - he says "it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team", which seems to be missing the point of scumhunting as a townie. i think a townie would be talking about "easy to find scum" not "easy to make cases". i also dont like how focused he is on defending himself by making a case on someone else instead of actually answering the cases against him. that said, I don't think that his inactivity makes him scummy, since he could just have lurked if he was lurky scum instead of promising future activity.
at the moment i'm waiting to see a bit more from him, we have like two and a half hours left.
im also leaning scum on vivek because of how he kept backing off of someone as soon as they defended themselves a little bit.
theres a bunch of other people who are kinda-sorta scummy, like gonzaw for his "trolololo i didnt read the setup" herpderp, marv for me not being able to read him anyway, and austin for that stuff about him and tali i talked about earlier.
for now ##vote: vivax
as for solstice it's not like I think he's super townie or anything, but i'm not sold on him being scum; asking questions can imply your opinions sometimes
actually wait that's a lie. i just read his filter from lvi and from noob17, and in both of those he asks questions a bunch but they feel more insightful than the ones he asks here, and he posts opinions interspersed with the questions. Plus if marv just caught a scum d1 it would mean hes probably town making my life easier (that's not true at all marv's meta is 100% to kill his teammates and we would learn nothing about him).
##unvote
##vote s0lstice
umm, vivax consider yourself pressured or whatever.
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(that stuff about marv is not serious btw. solstice's questioning just feels kinda different here than in those other games.)
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im willing to vote austin but marv what do you think about sol now? still scum but less sure than austin, or are you doubting your earlier read on him?
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##unvote
##vote vivax lets do this
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On July 14 2012 06:49 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:44 marvellosity wrote:On July 14 2012 06:42 gonzaw wrote:On July 14 2012 06:39 marvellosity wrote:
There's 20 minutes to deadline and you make a fucking post asking taht when you can just read the OP? Get a grip
It's majority It stoke me some doubt since Risen was all "vote Vivax/Dropbear" which made me think it may have been a plurality lynch. If it's majority then sorry to tell you but we'll NL if things keep up like this. Yes AND YOU HAVEN'T VOTED What's wrong with you??? What the hell is wrong with you marv? Get off my back and stop nitpicking everything I say. I already voted Keirathi. Shit I don't have time to read the thread, I just skimmed and saw some posts from Vivax and at least he seemed active (didn't read its content), but Dropbear isn't even here. Fuck it I hate majority lynches, but here it goes: ##Unvote: Keirathi
##Vote: DropbearHopefully I reread the thread quickly before the lynch but I doubt it.
of course he's not here
he's in australia it's like four am
like there are decent reasons to vote for him but that's not one of them
i want everyone to seriously consider gonzaw for lynch tomorrow.
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gonzaw when do you not want to lynch me, srsly.
are you going to start reading the thread soon/
i mean like idk, the fact that you keep refusing to read the setup feels to me like this game is your version of not giving a fuck - you still post a million times per second but the posts are just kind of only tangentially related to the thread.
idk, i dont really see you as doing this as scum but could you please at least answer the point? the fact that you did it like four times and never commented on it even when marv and i called you scummy for it, gives me a pretty bad feeling.
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so was my vote on solstice really scummy? I was trying to express that I wasn't convinced by the case on him until I read his filters from those other games... is there a problem with that?
idk, my scum reads right now are pretty much the same as they were 24 hours ago - keirathi's been seeming more townie, since his big post on drop bear at least actually talked about things that are relevant to scumhunting. Solstice still seems like possible scum for the same reason as I said before. I'm still at a loss to explain why gonzaw aggressively refused to read the thread and kept asking questions about setup, it just doesn't make sense from either a scum or town perspective.
Ugh, I guess I'll go through some stuff from gonzaw's case on me next.
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Gonzaw, let me answer a few of your points. I'm going to ignore some things because they are stupid (ie, "he was being too dramatic and trying too hard to be townie) and I'm going to answer the things that I think are important.
- When I posted about you and the setup stuff, I was genuinely confused - as I still am. Can you explain why you did that like four times, despite being called out after every one? It doesn't make sense to me.
- I get frustrated. You post these walls of text super often and they're all accusing me. It's like I can't post anything without having to defend myself against a bad case from you.
- I don't understand how you call me "being needlessly aggressive" a scum tell. Sure, I'm being aggresive towards you, because I don't want to deal with you dominating the game again like in mtg, and I don't want every post I make to have to be about my relationship towards you.
Now let's talk about the small part of your case on me that wasn't actually about you.
- i don't give a fuck what you think about the "tone" of my posts. I'm fucking tired a lot during the week and I'm not going to fancy shit up for you.
- how did I not back my reads up? My reasoning is right there. Sometimes being concise is useful, man. I could have written several paragraphs saying "vivak is scummy because he keeps accusing people then backing off of them very quickly." Instead I said it in one sentence.
- I really don't understand this part from you.
gonzaw saidShow nested quote +I said
i just read his filter from lvi and from noob17, and in both of those he asks questions a bunch but they feel more insightful than the ones he asks here, and he posts opinions interspersed with the questions. He's using meta ALONE about something IRRELEVANT (he asks "more insightful questions" when he's town, and he's "asking questions" here....how the hell is that relevant?)
This makes me think you're scum. How do you not see that "asking questions about irrelevant things" and "asking questions that could help reveal alignment" are different? And more importantly, in those other games he posted opinions whereas in this one he didn't. This point feels manufactured (and tbh I think some of the other points in here seem manufactured too. If you're town man you don't need to post a ginormous case like this every time, you can just post the things that you actually think and that actually make sense).
"my attitude convinces you i'm scum" I don't even understand what this means. I guess you mean my attitude towards you this game? Well, I think I explained that above but let me be a little more clear here: I think you ruined MTG mafia because you posted obsessively, and by sheer weight of posts (as well as the fact that a lot of the players there were newbs and that half the vets were scum) you managed to bully the thread into obsessing over whoever you were suspicious of - even though your suspicions were wrong, and (I thought) obviously so. I found that really frustrating, so I'm sorry but for the next while that I play with you I'm going to call your stupid bs out as clearly as I can.
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hey gonzaw good morning! or whatever time it is in Uruguay (do you really live in Uruguay?)
So here's the thing I posted that made solstice suspicious of me:
I said:
On July 14 2012 04:50 strongandbig wrote:
i was leaning townie on risen because of his trolovote on vivek, it seemed town - but now that i reread his filter there are a few things that give me pause. specifically, his "i hunt for whole scum teams" thing is pretty turr'ble - he says "it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team", which seems to be missing the point of scumhunting as a townie. i think a townie would be talking about "easy to find scum" not "easy to make cases". i also dont like how focused he is on defending himself by making a case on someone else instead of actually answering the cases against him. that said, I don't think that his inactivity makes him scummy, since he could just have lurked if he was lurky scum instead of promising future activity.
His point boils down to "this is scummy because S&B just played a game with risen where he was town, and he only did connection scumhunting there too!"
He ignores two out of the three arguments I make in that paragraph. I present three reasons for finding Risen suspicious:
1) He only uses connection scumhunting, which is a bad way to play as town.
2) The specific phrasing, "easier to make cases" could imply that his goal is subconsciously to make a good case and not to find scum.
3) His defense is not to go through and answer the points against him; instead he just defends himself by making a case on someone else.
+ Show Spoiler [aside about my posting - Gonzaw please…] +You'll notice that the way I just phrased those points is a lot more articulate than the way I initially phrased them. I'm probably always going to be quite inarticulate during and after work hours CET on weekdays. I work in an open room with the other grad students on my experiment, so it's hard for me to sneak more than a few seconds to post. I also work between eleven and thirteen hours a day including the commute, so I'm tired as fuck when I get home; so far I've been putting what little energy I do have to spend on mafia into thinking and not into posting.
S0lstice only talks about one of those three points. On that point, he's right that Risen did do the "connection scumhunting" thing as town in MTG, but I don't remember Risen coming out and saying it like that; IIRC it was just more of a pattern and not a policy. (Although I could be wrong about that.) So he is correct that this is the weakest of my three points about Risen.
As for why solstice ignores the other two points, there's two options:
1) He either failed at reading my post or didn't care enough to try, and really thought that was the only part of my FoS on Risen, or
2) He was trying to manufacture a case on me, so he focused on the weakest point of my FoS and called me scum for it.
S0lstice, let's hear something from you about this:
1) Now that I've clarified the other two reasons for my FoS, do you still think that post makes me scum?
2) On substance what do you think about those two points about Risen?
As to the actual substance of the case on Risen: I need to read his filter again before I decide whether he's scum or not. I think that all his "countdown to vivax's death" posts were weird and I need to decide if I think they make him scummy or townie.
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Oh and let me tell you guys a little bit more about why I posted all that Marv stuff, now that he's dead. There were two reasons I wanted to make it really clear to the thread that Marv should be one of our main topics of discussion as potential scum, and both relate to the fact that I feel pretty strongly he was the best player in this game.
1) If he was scum we probably lose this game; he's very hard to catch, he's willing to bus his team randomly, and he's slippery (we saw all this in TL LV or whichever one was the invader zim one). I thought the only chance we had versus a scum Marv would be to lynch him day 2 or 3, before he could start bussing his teammates.
2) If he was town then he would probably be the night 1 target of scum; sometimes, however, scum will hold off on an NK of the best town player if they think that person is having a bad game or otherwise a potential mislynch target.
Since I didn't think that any scumteam of non-marv people here would be able to successfully push a mislynch onto him, making him look as bad as possible was a win/win for town.
Unfortunately, it didn't succeed in getting scum to shoot someone else, mostly because Marv's defense was very good and the only scummy thing he did was of minor importance. (I still stand by my point that him wanting to kill Tali for the shitty plan was scummy though, I did not make that point up. I did try and make it seem more important than it actually was.)
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On Risen:
I'm going to post some quotes first.
On July 14 2012 06:04 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote:
@risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro. You're tunneling. I'm telling you you're tunneling. Just look at viv's recent posting. I'm serious. It is that bad, but no one in this thread seems to be giving it any credit beyond "oh he's playing to his crazy town meta" I'm tunneling too, though. I honestly think my case is stronger than yours tali. Do you feel your case on drop is stronger than my case on viv?
This feels townie to me. I thought it was super scummy but then I realized that he's telling Tali to stop tunnelling DropBear, not Risen.
On July 14 2012 05:44 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 05:21 marvellosity wrote:I'm not sure I can get behind a Vivax lynch. His scum filter from Newbie XVI is here where he lurked and summarised stuff. Here he is active and pushing stuff, even if he's doing it badly. This is your response to my case? Really? Town marv doesn't completely avoid answering anything I raised in my case by sidestepping it and posting a "meta-read"
I'm not sure what to make of this post. It definitely makes sense from a scum point of view IMO; the thing is, it also makes sense from a town point of view if Risen was like really super confident in his read on Vivax.
On July 14 2012 05:42 Risen wrote:
I'm convinces at this point two of viv/s0L/marv/austin have to be scum... This is so circlejerky it hurts... it's literally flooding the thread to defend vivax.
Ditto this one. Risen do you still believe this? Do you think solstice and austin are scum?
Yeah, I don't know what to think about Risen right now. The options include
- he was unreasonably sure about his case on vivax; I'm sure that's what he'll say, and it's not impossible as town, I know I've felt like that about my cases on people when I was town in the past (cases that turned out to be both correct and incorrect)
- he was chainsaw defending Dropbear; I could see a scum team thinking they needed to make someone look like a realistic alternative for the lynch to consolidate onto
- there are other possibilities, but IMO they're very unlikely to be true (eg, risen is scum but just decided to be really attention-grabbing for no reason; risen is town and wasn't that sure about his case on vivax, but felt under pressure to seem confident; etc)
Yeah, so I guess right now I'm leaning "town unless dropbear is scum" on Risen, since I think his behavior makes little sense as scum unless he was chainsaw defending dropbear.
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Okay now I'm reading into DerpBurp, as asked by Milton. This post took quite a while to write so I'll be responding later to whatever's been written since my last post.
Here's his first post after D1:
On July 12 2012 15:00 DropBear wrote:Hello everyone. I strongly disagree with town roleblocker being forced to claim, let alone not using their power. Having been one in past games that actually managed to block mafia KP I can testify to the usefulness of using this power. With the added possibility of jailkeeper and mafia roleblocker any claim could be complete bogus anyway and would be very difficult to verify. If you are town roleblocker do not claim!
One thing I would like to say about how we go about things, please don't overpost. Say what you need to say and shut up. Be concise and clear. This does not mean don't post, nor does it mean don't post often. It means don't post crap that doesn't need to be said. Stuff like this isn't necessary and clogs up your filter, please don't do it.
The first part is random D1 setup discussion, not very important. Let's look one more time at that second part:
On July 12 2012 15:00 DropBear wrote:
One thing I would like to say about how we go about things, please don't overpost. Say what you need to say and shut up. Be concise and clear.
This does not mean don't post, nor does it mean don't post often. It means don't post crap that doesn't need to be said.
Okay, that's fine; it's not really a big deal most of the time, but overposting can make the thread harder to follow and make it harder for people with less time to dig through for information and scum hunt. Most importantly, overposts like the one he quotes add to people's filters without giving information or opinions that town can build on. So this is decent advice, I guess. So now with that in mind, we're going to look at dropbear's next several posts, in order:
+ Show Spoiler [derpbear's next 13 posts] +1) On July 12 2012 15:14 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:06 Keirathi wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying roleblocker should never, under any circumstances, use their power.
But it needs to be used with extreme caution because you probably have a higher chance (or at the very least, equal) of blocking a town blue than blocking a KP if you just pick randomly.
There are certainly situations where it can be a useful power, of course, but its much safer just to not use it until you have good, solid reads. People have in fact said that it shouldn't be used period. Gonzawtalismania 2) On July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote:This is silly. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). This isn't going to happen and would just waste time.
On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. 3) On July 12 2012 15:22 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:14 sciberbia wrote:
@keirathi, @Dropbear, @Risen
Do you guys have any suspicions yet? Maybe you could comment on my post about risen/marv or about gonzaw's accusations of risen/strongandbig/Mattchew? This thread is too quiet for my liking -- please share some of your thoughts. For mine I have no idea yet, we are only 3 pages in or so? As to gonzaw's post, I think he is trying too hard. A hello post is extremely common and says absolutely nothing about alignment. Give them time. Points for effort mate but really a bit much so early. As to your post on marv, I completely disagree. Attacking a stupid plan is fine. He might still be mafia, who knows? But I disagree with your reasoning as to why he is. 4) On July 12 2012 18:09 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 16:10 gonzaw wrote:On July 12 2012 15:38 Keirathi wrote:On July 12 2012 15:14 DropBear wrote:On July 12 2012 15:06 Keirathi wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying roleblocker should never, under any circumstances, use their power.
But it needs to be used with extreme caution because you probably have a higher chance (or at the very least, equal) of blocking a town blue than blocking a KP if you just pick randomly.
There are certainly situations where it can be a useful power, of course, but its much safer just to not use it until you have good, solid reads. People have in fact said that it shouldn't be used period. Gonzawtalismania Then I completely disagree with them. I'm still not positive they mean that there is a never a situation where RB can be useful, but if they think that then I encourage them to think harder. Obviously there are exceptions. If there are 2 "very obvious scum" or something (and only 2 scum remain) then he can try to RB those. But him trying to RB at random on N1 or even on N2 seems too risky to me, specially if that guys doesn't have very good reads (and isn't lucky). @Dropbear: I don't like your attitude. You just busted into the thread, basically discredited everything everybody said, and discredited every accusation anybody else has done, and that's it. All the while acting like you own the place or something (without actually taking charge). However you are not progressing at all, you are just complaining. Actually lets get the ball rolling (this thread is VERY silent so far, hopefully this changes that): ##Vote: Dropbear You're just mad that I think your idea on the roleblocker is bad and your cases are bad. 5) On July 13 2012 01:32 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 00:45 talismania wrote:On July 12 2012 15:14 DropBear wrote:On July 12 2012 15:06 Keirathi wrote:
I don't think anyone is saying roleblocker should never, under any circumstances, use their power.
But it needs to be used with extreme caution because you probably have a higher chance (or at the very least, equal) of blocking a town blue than blocking a KP if you just pick randomly.
There are certainly situations where it can be a useful power, of course, but its much safer just to not use it until you have good, solid reads. People have in fact said that it shouldn't be used period. Gonzawtalismania Yo so this isn't true at all. I've been very clear from the beginning that I think the roleblocker should not use their power unless they have a clear shot with it or the situation demands it. Essentially, don't use it N1 or N2, then proceed cautiously. Your post clearly says you can't see a reason behind using it. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:05 talismania wrote:
@gonzaw on the RB: yeah for sure I don't think there's any point to a RB using their power. What did you mean then? The first post or this not on night1 or 2 post?> 6) On July 13 2012 01:33 DropBear wrote:
Talismania are you saying that your plan was completely bogus then? 7) On July 13 2012 01:34 DropBear wrote:
EBWOP: cos if so then that changes a few things. 8)On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote:Vivax I am very confused as the reasoning behind your voting so far. Why did you choose strongandbig initially? Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 18:30 Vivax wrote:
@ NSH
It's cause of a habit. I just tend to expect links in underlined words <_<.
Back to the topic:
##unvote strongandbig
Very informative post about marv there.
Wanted to vote Milton next but he posted.
He tries to make himself pretty transparent by posting his games. It's a good sign, but nothing decisive.
Speaking of meta, sciberbia doesn't look good based on that.I was with him in two games and I feel like he's being different in this one.
s0lstice already pointed out the missing fast posts we're used to see from scib at the start of the game.
That alone is forgivable given the posted reasons. But the overall gut feeling is still bad cause of the overall style. What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? What are the differences in sciberbia you talk about? 9) On July 13 2012 01:40 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 01:37 talismania wrote:
No I don't think my plan was completely bogus. A variant worked in bastard 2 as you should know. I don't think it's that terrible if everyone follows it. Did I expect people to follow it? No. Did I expect people to react? Yes of course. Not sure how useful the reactions are but you can see my handydandy summary above. I spent the entirety of bastard 2 arguing with a brick wall i.e. Acrofales. I can't even remember this plan you speak of lol. 10) On July 13 2012 01:59 DropBear wrote:Marvellosity you have made so much sense so far that it makes me smile  11) On July 13 2012 02:00 DropBear wrote:
##Vote Vivax 12) On July 13 2012 02:58 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 02:20 talismania wrote:On July 13 2012 02:00 DropBear wrote:
##Vote Vivax the hell? any reasons beyond what marv said? I called him out as being suss last page, do you read boy? 13) On July 13 2012 16:29 DropBear wrote:Dear god gonzaw so many words. So so many words
Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:49 talismania wrote:Time to poke the hornet's nest again dropbear what's your response to this (below)? The way I see it, you made a post asking vivax some questions with some implied suspicion maybe. Then marv votes vivax and you eagerly hop on the wagon. When called out, you say you called him out for being suspicious the page earlier, but the only post you made in reference to him was just the one where you asked him questions. You never actually called him out for being suspicious as you said. On July 13 2012 03:04 talismania wrote:if you mean this On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote:Vivax I am very confused as the reasoning behind your voting so far. Why did you choose strongandbig initially? On July 12 2012 18:30 Vivax wrote:
@ NSH
It's cause of a habit. I just tend to expect links in underlined words <_<.
Back to the topic:
##unvote strongandbig
Very informative post about marv there.
Wanted to vote Milton next but he posted.
He tries to make himself pretty transparent by posting his games. It's a good sign, but nothing decisive.
Speaking of meta, sciberbia doesn't look good based on that.I was with him in two games and I feel like he's being different in this one.
s0lstice already pointed out the missing fast posts we're used to see from scib at the start of the game.
That alone is forgivable given the posted reasons. But the overall gut feeling is still bad cause of the overall style. What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? What are the differences in sciberbia you talk about? then I don't see you calling him suspicious, but just asking him questions. Implied suspicion I'll give you, but not calling him out as being suspicious by any means. Also good to know you're just as angry as in bastard 2 :-) Marv took the words out of my mouth. I was in the middle of a post in response to Vivax myself. I prodded, got an answer and responded with my vote, it's pretty clear.
That's enough for now. Let's do a little bit of analysis!
First, the overall trend is pretty damning. After saying we shouldn't post things that aren't necessary and shouldn't overpost in general, he posts pretty much nothing but small posts that don't actually give any information. I would argue specifically that posts 4, 9, and 10 directly violate his "don't overpost" directive. Now, you guys are probably like "but that's only two posts, why does it matter?" Well, when someone starts out the game by giving advice to town like that, it's important to see if they're following it. If they're town, then their beginning-of-game advice is going to be coming from some idea of what makes posting pro-town, what makes a good town environment, etc - and they're going to be following that advice when posting as town. On the other hand, giving start-of-game advice is a good tactic for scum to do almost all the time, especially when it's really general stuff like "don't overpost". It gives the townies a good first impression of them, which can color the townies' impressions of their later posts; it starts their filter off with something that looks protown, again getting them psychological first-impression points; and it doesn't cost them anything in terms of information given to the town. However, scum are much more likely than town not to follow their own start-of-game advice. Whereas a townie's posts come from the same mindset that led them to give that advice in the first place, scum's don't; it's like putting another ball in the air to juggle.
Now if you're still hung up on the fact that "it's only two posts", despite the fact that it's like a quarter of everything I quoted, let's look at some of the other things he posted. Posts 1, 2, 5, 6, 7 and 12 do what I would call "violating the spirit of the law, if not the letter." Sure, they include a little bit of information; but they are short and their content is minor. Post 1 is just links without opinion or analysis; post 2 disagrees with Tali's plan for no reason and besides that is contentless; post 5 is about the stupid "don't use roleblocker when it doesn't make sense" issue Marv made fun of a while ago; posts 6 and 7 ask a question of Tali and tell us "it changes things" but don't provide any information for town or any hint of dropbear's own opinion; and post 12 is a pretty dismissive allusion to one of dropbear's earlier posts that isn't actually relevant. I contend that in general DropBear is not following the spirit of his pregame advice, even though he is mostly (but not nearly always) following the letter of it.
Finally I'd like to look at DropBear's vote on Vivax, post 11. Note how it comes with little to no reasoning. His was on page 13 of the thread, loooong before there was any reason to start consolidating. Additionally, DropBear gets called out for not having any reasoning; in a dismissive, contentless one-liner (post 12), he refers us to his earlier posts in the thread for calling out Vivax as being suspicious. Well, I don't see anything like that; the closest I see is post 9 where he just asks some questions. I mean, agreeing with a case on someone is fine, I guess, although ideally if it's that early in the day you would post some reasoning of your own or at least explain what about the case you agree with; but DropBear's first response to being pressured on his reason for voting isn't "I agree with Marv's case on him," it's "I already called him out." DropBear actually didn't already call him out, but it's just as important to note that the first instinct wasn't to explain his reasoning for the vote, it was to defend himself as being consistent. I find this scummy.
+ Show Spoiler [why this point isn't hypocritical] +
So if you want to be able to sum up this case in a few sentences, here they are (the tl;dr in other words).
In his first post after the game started, DropBear gave town the advice not to post more than necessary and not to post without content. He did not follow this advice, and I presented three posts by him that I think were unnecessary and contentless; I also argued that his filter in general contains many posts with a bare minimum of content that violate the spirit of his advice. Additionally, his vote on Vivax was suspect - it came purely from agreeing with Marv's reasoning, but was way before there was any need to consolidate, and when pressed on not having his own reasoning, his first instinct was not to explain himself, but to distort his own previous posts in such a way as to make him seem more consistent.
##vote: DropBear
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hmm, the case on talismania that was posted up there looks decent as well. Keeping my vote on dropbear for now though, I want to see peoples' reactions to the cases.
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On July 16 2012 06:53 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 06:48 sciberbia wrote:
"Heh heh heh. Town is trying to lynch one of us three scum: mattchew, talis, and gonzaw. How can I throw them off track? Oh I know! I'll leave my vote on sciberbia and mysteriously dissapear. Without my vote, there is no way they'll get a scum. Heh heh heh. I am the brilliant scum mastermind, Mattchew. And there's no way anyone will find my disapearence suspicious"
It's just ridiculous. His disappearing is a busytell, not a scumtell. If Mattchew was scum, how hard would it have been to just hang around and sheep marv's vote? Not that hard. Being around for the lynch but not doing anything (i.e. talis) is more suspicious than not being there at all. Mattchew did very similar stuff in MTG. He went AFK for the WHOLE D1 and he didn't give a fuck about being called out. Him being afk itself isn't worrying, it's worrying when it's obvious he doesn't give a shit about anything and isn't even trying to explain himself about his inactivity and lack of effort. I'm torn because his earlier posts did seem townie, but that behaviour of his strikes some doubt (specially if it wasn't for some outside reason, like getting his internet connection cut or something). I'll try to drop the subject before reading this thread and his case on talis; but this is basically exclusive since it's about his earlier behaviour. Show nested quote +gonzaw telling our vig to shoot Mattchew over this is one of the reasons I'm suspicious of gonzaw That was marv
Gonzaw do you really not see the difference between how mattchew is posting this game and how he posted in mtg?
I'm like 75 percent sure mattchew is town right now.
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On July 16 2012 07:12 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 07:03 sciberbia wrote:
@gonzaw
Don't you think Mattchew expected to get some serious flak for disappearing? If he was scum and did it on purpose yes (if he's town then he obviously didn't think about it). Show nested quote +I just don't get why scum Mattchew would intentionally draw suspicion to himself unless he had a legit reason for vanishing. I guess you don't know scum Mattchew and what he's capable of. Some scum don't give a shit about slight "WIFOMy" suspicion on themselves if they can get it away easily later or shift attention elsewhere and keep doing what they do. Risen, Mattchew, Palmar, Ace, etc are some players that tend to act like that as scum every once and then I don't know if its a busytell if I don't get a reasonable explanation for it. He WAS active when he made those posts, and there were lots of discussion going on about Vivax, Dropbear, Keirathi, solstice, etc. At that point in time (if he didn't just come, post and immediately leave) there were tons of things he could have done to help town, keeping his vote on sciberbia and not explaining anything isn't part of that. Unless he was in such a hurry he only had time to post and not read the thread at all (and he still believed sciberbia was scum); then it's not a "busytell" and it's odd as fuck. Him not explaining himself at all until I JUST asked him to is odd as fuck as well.
(damn, I see this is taking quite a detour in town discussion. Matt please explain EVERYTHING that went through your mind at that time and what you did (i.e what activity you had, if you were actually reading the thread or just posted and left, etc) so we can get this over with)
Gonzaw I really think you're barking up the wrong tree with this. What fucking difference does it make whether or not he explains himself? If we think he's town it doesn't matter and if we think he's scum we can't believe him anyway. He disappeared; that's scummy or it's not. But stop obsessing over it.
What do you think about my case on dropbear? What do you think about Matt's case on Talismania?
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solstice, you're still ignoring the fact that I made three arguments about Risen, and you're still focusing only on the weakest one.
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On July 16 2012 08:50 s0Lstice wrote:
I addressed your three points s&b.
-'cases' instead scum read
-'omgus when he defends himself
-connections/entire scum team reads
correct?
You're right. This time it's my fault for not reading well enough. My bad.
But to be fair you're wrong about the "omgus" thing. I did say your case on me smelled scummy, but that included addressing the points it contained and explaining why they were wrong. The difference is that when Risen was under suspicion, he didn't say "the points against me are wrong and here's why that's scummy," he said "you fools! look over there, it's scum!"
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On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote:I feel much better about my reads right now than I did D1. Here are top 3 most suspicious: 1) talismania: I really want to lynch him. 2) gonzaw: I have a few minor points against him, but other than that it's gut feeling. He reminds me a lot of mafia Xatalos from NMM XV. gonzaw and talis are linked as scumbuddies in my mind. I want to see talis flip red before we lynch gonzaw. 3) keirathi: still seems somewhat suspicious; mostly for reasons I've already stated I really need a break from this game so I'm just going to make a case on talismania before getting some much-needed sleep. It's almost 7am here. I'll post thoughts on other people tomorrow.
My case on talismaniafixation on his planThis has already been talked about in other cases; those of austinmcc and miltonkram I believe. It's a bit weird how wrapped up he gets in proposing his plan, defending his plan, and analyzing reactions to his plan. In particular, I find his assemblage of reactions suspicious: + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote:Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan
(for those who care) + Show Spoiler +marvellosityOn July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). no next On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote:
naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over)
I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons.
Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense.
Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan!
People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzawOn July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote:So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:56 Risen wrote:
Welcome to ICBINTMM in which Risen does not post in caps or call anyone an idiot THE ENTIRE GAME. Stay tuned to see if this actually happens...... Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 07:33 strongandbig wrote:
sup bros
i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room.
Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 06:33 Mattchew wrote:
alight lets do this.
no zentor means no policy lynch based on names for me. You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:05 austinmcc wrote:
Screw the number and size of posts. I'm not a scientist, but it looks like talismania's been town --> scum --> town --> scum --> town. Therefore, he's scum this game.
I know that millers are supposed to claim D1, but I don't see why we'd want claims on other roles right now. Except from marv, who needs to let us know whether he's a vigi or scum this game, since those are the only roles that he rolls. But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. MattchewOn July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote:
Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solsticeOn July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote:
Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmccOn July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote:
Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. KeirathiOn July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote:
Keirathi, assuming you are still around...
why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBearOn July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote:This is silly. Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote:
pardon me for some half-assed musing:
since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). This isn't going to happen and would just waste time.
On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbigOn July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote:Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET.
Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] +The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that.
NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you.+ Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice Overall, all this talk about the plan is unproductive and slightly suspicious.
I like this point. There really was no need to go through every single person's reactions and compile them like that.
On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote:consistently wishy/washyHere are some examples of some wishy/washiness. Several of these raise yellow flags for me: + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 07:54 talismania wrote:I don't like milkton's last post either. There's a touch of omgus to my feelings there but I also think his argument he just made about me doesn't make much sense. Although come to think of it I dunno why he would come in out of the cold and start making a case on me does seem a bit random as scum.
austin's reply to my poke at his post was rather overwrought which fits with my model of him as nervous scum but I guess that could just be the way the guy is too. solstice you said you know him - what do you make of it? On July 14 2012 01:32 talismania wrote:
solstice: I really like the case marv made on him, actually, but for some reason I don't know if I can move beyond a null on him. Like I think the first half of his filter is scummy (the part marv showed), the second half townie. Overall he is playing fairly relaxed, which is usually a town indicator as well. On the other hand he's also been fairly focused on just a couple players, which is a scum indicator.
Keirathi: Well he's conditional town or conditional scum at this point. Like I think he was way too neutral in the beginning as someone else pointed out but he's also onto dropbear as I am.
On July 14 2012 01:43 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 01:39 marvellosity wrote:
quick question tali - what pushes you to Dropbear rather than austin? actually that is a decent question. I originally ranked them that way in my head from way back when I analyzed reactions to my posts and it sort of has stuck since then. Mmm I guess thinking it over I can't think of a fantastic reason for one over the other to be honest with you. On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote:
@risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro. On July 14 2012 06:08 talismania wrote:
I dunno. I'm starting to think my case on austin is actually stronger than my case on dropbear was in the first place to be perfectly honest. However milton and keirathi also brought up good points on dropbear I think. Unless they were just trying to nudge a bandwagon along? Mmm shit.
On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:32 marvellosity wrote:
no-one's gonna come with me on austin? I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. especially that last one. seriously wtf..
I like this point as well. I don't know why scum often seem wishy-washy like this, since it doesn't make sense - it's much better strategically for them to be confident and later say "I was wrong" than to hedge their bets, but that's not what they do in practice. I think it may be subconscious. I know I did it when I was scum, but I was a lot more noobish then than Talismania is now.
On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote:I don't like his approach to the lynchI feel like we were just lynching between a bunch of townies yesterday. If I had to guess, I'd say there is only 1 scum between our many lynch candidates: dropbear, vivax, miltonkram, s0Lstice, austinmcc, risen, and keirathi. So I think the mafia must have felt very at ease and not really cared too much who actually got lynched. Talis was just too calm in the hour leading up to the lynch. For example, what was he doing in between these two posts: + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:08 talismania wrote:
I dunno. I'm starting to think my case on austin is actually stronger than my case on dropbear was in the first place to be perfectly honest. However milton and keirathi also brought up good points on dropbear I think. Unless they were just trying to nudge a bandwagon along? Mmm shit.
Where has gonzaw gone? I kinda expect him to be in here cracking the whip near deadline. On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:32 marvellosity wrote:
no-one's gonna come with me on austin? I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. This was a crucial 31 minutes. I don't think any of us actually had any idea who would end up being lynched at this time. But what was talis doing? Looks like he was just sitting around waiting for us to lynch a townie. In the last hour before the lynch, he really does nothing productive at all. He just says a bunch of neutralish things that don't really go anywhere.
I like this point as well. Especially the fact that Talismania had been pushing dropbear, had even made a case on him and had his vote on him, and was "torn between dropbear and austin," and had never actually posted anything about how he felt about vivax, but didn't do anything to oppose the vivax lynch or to push the lynch off of vivax and onto dropbear.
On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote:I also have serious problems with this post just after we lynched vivax: Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 07:01 talismania wrote:
well here's to hoping I was completely wrong For reference, here is the full extent of his defense on Vivax: Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote:
@risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro. Seriously? He says that he hopes he is "completely wrong" about vivax, but he hardly defended Vivax at all. If he really felt strongly about Vivax being town, he should have been positively shouting at people like me/marv/austin/strongandbig to put votes on dropbear instead of vivax, especially seeing as dropbear was supposedly his #1 scumread. But he was just saying useless shit like this: + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 06:32 marvellosity wrote:
no-one's gonna come with me on austin? I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. On July 14 2012 06:54 talismania wrote:
argh wtf I don't want to swtich but I will if we need too. On July 14 2012 06:57 talismania wrote:
jesus risen why are you so excited? According to what talis has said, he really thought dropbear was scum, and he really thought vivax was town. I was a hell of a lot less sure than talis supposedly was, and even I was more invested in the lynch. All of his posts leading up to the lynch seriously bother me.
I don't agree with this point as much, since I believe Talismania meant "well I hope I was wrong and dropbear really is scum" not "well I hope I was wrong and vivax isn't really town." I see talis as having been neutral on vivax. However, it's still pretty damning that he didn't do anything to push the lynch off of his nullread and onto his scumread.
On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote:throws suspicion on easy targets (my townreads)He throws suspicion on a bunch of easy targets: dropbear, austin, risen, s0Lstice, milton. In fact, he threw suspicion onto just about every lynch candidate, and onto nobody that was not a lynch candidate. His reads are just going with the flow. I feel like he is just gonzaw's parrot. He's quite friendly with both gonzaw and marv (people with most thread control IMO). Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:54 talismania wrote:
@marv: nice shit. solstice was pretty on point activity-wise in ssb64 despite being kind of wrong the whole game (he did get better late game). He simply hasn't been around this game that much. Very curious to see what he thinks of the austin situation since he claims he can read austin so well. Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:57 talismania wrote:
ps risen where you at? Gonzaw wrote some great stuff about you and I want to hear your cases/suspicions since I can't recall actually seeing anything from you along those lines yet.
I think this point is null. The way Gonzaw plays, since he posts so much and still manages to be mostly articulate and reasonable, and since he's one of the more veteran players here, it really is easier as town to just go with him. IMO Gonzaw's blessing and curse as town is that his ability to lead a town through thread control and bullying developed a whole lot faster than his actual ability to find scum.
On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote:
does not defend his townreads
He never makes an against-the-grain townread. In his entire filter, I don't think he defends anybody at all. He supposedly had townreads on vivax, strongandbig, and mattchew, all 3 of which were under fire at some point, and none of which he did any defending for. This is suspicious to me.
I have a really good feeling about this case. Can we please lynch talis today?
##Vote talismania
As I said above, I dont see evidence in Talismania's filter that he really had a townread on Vivax, and neither Matt nor I were really in much danger of being lynched yesterday so there was no need to expend "thread capital" to defend us. This point is pretty null for me.
Overall, I would be pretty happy with a Talismania lynch. However, as far as I can see the only reactions to my case on DropBear were his own defense against it and Gonzaw's saying his defense was pretty good. I'd like to hear from a few more people what they think about my points on "not following his own advice" and the way he defended his vote on vivax.
Pre-edit: I see that scibebia posted about dropbear while I was writing this - I want to ask, why is his being a "consensus lynch target" a good thing? That would indicate to me that either he's town, or his scum buddies are bussing him and we won't gain as much info from his lynch. Note that I'm not saying that because there is consensus, it means he's town and we shouldn't lynch him; people sometimes do say that but I think it's pretty incorrect. However, scberbia I'm asking you specifically, what does his being a "consensus lynch target" mean and why do you say it there?
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ebwop: I mean why is talismania being a consensus lynch target good.
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Hmm, I guess I'll change my vote to talismania. I should put my money where my mouth is, and I haven't been too convinced by the defences so far.
I still think s0lstice and dropbear look scummy though.
##unvote
##vote: talismania
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EPT
