EPTI Can't Believe it's not Themed MiniMafia - Page 12
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On July 21 2012 07:05 NoSmurfHere wrote: are you kidding? You had 10 pages of filter in an 85 page game lol. Don't kid yourself :p also I found it hilarious you chastised people for not reading your (very hard to read) posts when you weren't reading anything yourself lol. At least be realistic :p I was reading everything.... ....except the setup related stuff >_> Seriously, I think there was something in my brain that prevented me from holding information about the setup Hey! At least I'm posting less, that should be a bonus  | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
wbg in obs qt: So, you force a guy to get wrong reads. That's not hard, and the easiest person to do this on would have been gonzaw. All of his reads have been wrong all game pretty much (from what I've read.) Hey! >: ( Apart from thinking Dropbear was likely town at one point, and being suspicious of solstice and Milton at another point, I don't see how "wrong" my reads were...? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I still had doubts about his alignment because he can do any play as scum and could have done that play as scum, but I didn't see the "obvious" scum benefits in it as if he was actually town. I thought I played well in D3? I tried to post reasons and reasons for why Mattchew was scum, why Risen was a bad lynch, and why Keirathi was town (all accurate ones), yet nobody seemed to listen to me. I had more doubts of Milton than Dropbear because of how easy he sheeped Mattchew, which made me think the scum team was desperately trying to get me lynched. Also, what really made me an "easy target" like everybody was saying in the obs QT? I really didn't get why people were so suspicious of me, I honestly don't. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On July 21 2012 07:28 Keirathi wrote: I don't necessarily think that your reads were wrong. You just made so many reads that you were bound to be right occasionally. I posted this before from my notes, but this was just up until the end of day 2: + Show Spoiler + gonzaw Townie Reads: Vivax, solstice, scib, tali, me; Risen, me; austin, Scum Reads: Risen, S&B, matt; austin, S&B, me, drop, risen; S&B, tali, austin; Tali, Drop, solstice, matt, risen, me; Null Reads: marv, austin, Risen;; Arguments against: Drop, Risen, Milton, matt; matt, Risen; Matt, Risen, votes: Drop, me, vivax;;tali You have scum reads in the first 2 days on 9 out of the 13 players. And town reads on over half of the people you had scum reads on. I generally didn't find any individual post of yours hard to keep up with, but overall, you were a trainwreck. You had so many opinions and they changed so wildly and rapidly, that it was easier to just devalue what you were saying most of the time. Not that I ignored it per se, because you did have some good points, but it was just too hard to know what your current opinion was most of the time. If I have "bad" reads initially...then surely it's better that I changed my mind into better reads later instead of keeping the bad reads, right? Ever since iGrok's game that's what I'm trying to do, reconsider my reads each time and see if I was wrong or not, and change them accordingly. Yes, my reads on D1 (other than my Vivax read, and well the solstice one which I changed >_>) weren't good, but after N1 (when I suspected talis and backed off S&B and Keirathi and austin) I don't see how I was a "trainwreck"...? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On July 21 2012 07:32 Risen wrote: You had so many cases. Sooooo manyyyyy casessssss. That and matt's tunneling of you made me suspicious of you both. Nah that was on D1, after that I didn't have much cases, just "long" thoughts. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On July 21 2012 07:37 NoSmurfHere wrote: the only reason you suspected Mattchew was because of OMGUS. Literally. If you hadn't noticed, you almost died on the previous day, but survived kind of luckily (still not really sure how that happened given that half the townies said Mattchew was town) No, I was getting suspicious of Mattchew since D2, and even before he made his "case" on me ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=48#958 ) or even before he even FoSed me ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=46#909 ) It had NOTHING to do with OMGUS. Hell I even stated later his FoS on me wasn't my sole reasons for stating that: I won't get ahead of myself though, I'll try to see if your intents are malicious or not later, but fucking hell they seem so right now to me. Surely that's the opposite of OMGUS? For example, look at this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=15#284 massive wall of text that no one really wants to read. All 3 reads are wrong. (Austin, SnB, Keirathi) (and in the previous post you list 3 different guys who you all think might be scum: DB, Risen, Milkton. 1/6) Yes, those reads were bad, but they were into 24 hours into D1. I was just posting my thoughts then. I would have actually liked if they completely ignored that post afterwards. I mean, think of it like this: -By D1, I had 3 scum reads, ALL 3 were wrong. -By D2, I changed my mind about all 3 of them and thought of them as town, which was RIGHT. Is that "horrible play" like you are making it out to be? I went through a lot of effort in changing those reads, I don't see why I can't even get a little bit of credit for doing so. Also, some of your opinions were just flat-out bad, especially the mason one. Masons don't claim at the start of d1. You could've been mislynched for this because it's very antitown to say "no one discusses this, masons claim now, and if they claim later they're scummy". The fact is that nowhere in any guide does it say masons must immediately claim. In fact, in many cases it's a waste of the role. Every time "confirmed town" masons roles have been discussed I've read the same conclusion "it's better they claim on D1 to get confirmed townies". Sorry if I didn't put a lot of thought into it, but for me 2 confirmed townies on D1 beat the hell out of any gambit those masons decide to play later, since 2 confirmed townies on D1 can completely change the game (like they did on C9++ Mafia a while ago). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=19#367 another post indicating you not reading the thread, yet still posting shit. I didn't think a bracketed off-topic questions that I added last-second, kind of as a joke, kind of since I didn't actually remember was "posting shit". I actually tried people to ignore it later, but S&B still went against me because of it. Simple fact of the matter is that if you haven't understood the setup, stop posting until you do. It's not hard: just read the damn OP. Everyone else managed to do that except you, yet you continued to post pages upon pages of misinformed garbage. This post sums it up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147¤tpage=19#368 Yes, I'd say this was pretty bad play by me and I apologize. I still don't see how much of an impact it had on the game, and why making that "bad play" made me suspicious. When you post the way you did on d1, people can't help but call you scum. I don't get this. Even then most people supposedly found me suspicious because of D2, not D1. for most of the game you tunneled townies such as Keirathi and strongandbig. If by "most of the game" you mean D1+N1. I never thought they were scum AT ALL when I started rereading the thread/filters on D2 (albeit having some little suspicious of Keirathi at some times, but nothing that lasted too long) In addition you had very large lists of players you found scummy, and very rarely did it seem like you were paring these reads down. Thus if you find 8 players scummy and ultimately 2 of them are actually scum it's not impressive at all given that there are only 3 scum and 12 players besides yourself to begin with. I don't remember when this happened, could you point it out? Damn it wbg you seem pissed  | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On July 21 2012 07:54 Risen wrote: Whew rereading my filter I'm shocked I wasn't pushed by scum for misusing words. Bus alone wasn't going to get me lynched, but the claim and bus in combination would have gotten me lynched npnp had mattchew not tunneled gonzaw so hard. There were people (townies) in thread who really, REALLY wanted to lynch me (I don't blame them) and still matt stuck to gonzaw for reasons I'm unsure of. I stand by what I said that you seemed townie and those "bus" instead of "wagon" and your cop claim could have been brushed off as "bad play". Maybe it was me but if people had read your filter this game, and took into account other games where you were scum they would have figured out you were town, or at least not be that sure to kill you and give you another chance. I mean, even it townies make "bad plays" it's not "oh if the scum team is competent they'll get misslynched 100%". If other townies can get good reads then even if the scum team is "competent" they can't just make a townie change their read if he finds it accurate. That's why I was kind of shocked I was being pushed so much (my "bad plays"=/="scum"), and Risen and Keirathi too (Keirathi for his outburst against Risen and his self-vote). | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On July 21 2012 08:08 NoSmurfHere wrote: I think the reason you were being pushed was because legitimately many of the things you were saying were antitown. Also the examples I listed were merely examples. Your reads changed later but given that your filter was 10 pages long I don't think many people truly knew how your thought process changed. Sometimes it's just difficult for people to read that much. (you should know, you didn't read the OP :p) I tried being as transparent as I could with my thought process. By D2 it should have been obvious that by reading the thread and filters I changed my mind about lots of things. I mean, I spent like 4-5 hours reading filters and the thread and making big-ass posts where I basically change my mind about Keirathi, S&B, austin, sciberbia, etc. I was pissed off since it did seem people didn't even read my posts. Not my filter but my posts (as I'm posting them). My filter wasn't that large initially by D2. I started posting A LOT on D3 since I was going to be a misslynch and I HAD to convince people I was innocent (by trying to contribute as much as possible, put my thoughts about lots of things, etc). Apparently nobody read those posts either or even took them into account | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On July 21 2012 08:09 NoSmurfHere wrote: and that's the reason I believe scum could've won at any point :p Anyone could've been lynched given the correct type of push. DB had a low chance of winning but he didn't try. So we'll never know. However if we ignore these possibilities (and I'm glad you're not ignoring them) then we're blind to future eventualities. A win might be a win but if you can't reproduce that win in the future it doesn't matter much, right? If I was still alive there was no way I'd allow a lynch on Keirathi, or hell even Risen before Dropbear (I even posted it in that "lynch sequence" before), even if the "Mattchew wagon" didn't happen to "confirm" Keirathi/Milton/etc | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
At least when you calm down a little bit I seriously don't think I played as bad as you said Hell I was so proud of myself that I had my scumread on talis correct by D2 and my scumread on Mattchew correct by D3 I didn't really care about Dropbear in D3 to be honest, I just desperately wanted to stay alive and lynch Mattchew, so I may have spouted senseless stuff that I didn't even read (like flip-flopping on Milton, etc) and not really focused on finding the remaining scum. Other than on D1 I didn't even "tunneled" any townie or disrupted the thread like I used to do as town, I dunno why you think I played so shitty wbg. I derped with the setup, but if people ignore what I say about the setup then it's not that big of a deal. Plus there's no scum motivation at all to derp about the setup (seriously, there isn't), specially if it's not to "justify posting" since I already had pages and pages of posts, I didn't need to "post" about the setup to "appear I was contributing" or something. Also I think I played well on D3, at least with everybody FoSing me and not listening to me at all (again, other than the setup derps). I still want someone to tell me why my play on D2 regarding talis was so scummy...? Hell if anything I was the first one to put suspicion on him (on N1) so I didn't really get it. I thought getting correct reads on S&B, austin, Mattchew, Risen and Keirathi was more important at that time, since (like I said) I didn't think I'd change my mind about talis. I still stand that even if Risen's cop claim was "bad", if one read his filter and analyzed his play correctly you could figure out he wasn't scum, specially after Mattchew flipped scum (for that reason I posted earlier). At all his "bad" cop claim kind of cleared him in my eyes even more if he hadn't made that claim (but well maybe that was just me). | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On July 21 2012 21:49 s0Lstice wrote: I'll chip in with my 2 cents gonzaw. My example will be this post: The portion on Risen, you cite some posts and explain how you think they are weird. As I'm reading along, I'm processing your indictment of him, matching it to my own thoughts. Then I get to the bolded portion, and I see you don't really have any convictions on this at all. I had a lot of problems with this posting style...it's like a stream of consciousness. You open the brain valve and spill a bunch of stuff out and then turn it off X minutes later and hit post. The result is you present a lot of ideas, many of which you counter by yourself, finished off by a conclusion that has lost all meaning because it has no foundation to stand on. That back and forth you do with yourself needs to happen in your head. You need to arrive at a single endpoint prior to posting, and present evidence that supports it. If you can't do this, then you probably shouldn't be writing a wall of text on this player at this time. The more I saw you doing this, the more I wanted to tune you out. I really had to force myself to grind through your stuff to find where you stood on things. I seriously love your effort though...if you could find a way that works for you to narrow your posting down such that is concise and representative of your strongest convictions, then it would both make it easier for people to read you, and make it easier for town to get some use out of your best reads. But that was on D1, why would anybody read my D1 reads if I changed them?  At that point I was trying to post whatever was in my mind to get some discussion going (i.e post some "suspicious" stuff some people have been doing to get people to notice them and make conclusions of their own). As I recall, nobody complained when I did that at the time >_> Because to be honest, the alternative was marv shitting on Vivax and solstice, and Mattchew shitting on sciberbia, which I didn't agree with at the time. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I thought the fact that he "confirmed" 2 townies as town increasing the chance that he himself or his scumbuddy is lynched would "confirm" it as a legit claim since it wouldn't make any sense as scum. Like I said the only way it would make sense if he was scum was a Risen+solstice scumteam (so he'd be protecting his buddy by that point), but Risen's behaviour was townie, at least compared to games like LIII | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On July 22 2012 05:18 Promethelax wrote: Gonzaw: Speaking as someone who has played with you and watched you play I'd like to throw in my opinion here. You need to use the huge amount of effort you have to do something more productive for town you add so much to the game that, at times, it is unreadable. You need to post less not more. I would love to watch you in a game where you gave yourself a posting limitation of some kind and forced yourself to make concise reads. You essentially post your thought process and notes in the thread I think that instead you should write all that up, put it in word and give town the outlines of your thoughts on some people if you could consolidate those thoughts into a single post and, when you had new thoughts make another complete post with all of your thoughts that would be more beneficial to town. You post so much that every good read you have is brought down by the sheer weight of your posting sometimes it is easiest to just ignore you, even when you are right, remember: not everyone shares your incredible amount of both time and dedication and when a thread is thirty pages longer at night than it was in the morning something needs to be skipped over. Yes, I know what you are talking about and I know I "overposted" at times. I tend to do that as town yes (like in that MTG mafia game we played together). The thing is that I didn't see it would be seen as scummy this game instead of "just very bad town" like usual >_> <_< If people think I'm town and follow me I don't really mind overposting as long as when they start following me I have correct reads Most games they think I'm town but I have bad reads (or just don't follow me), but in this game I had good reads but they thought I was scum (by D2 forward, ignore D1 >_>).Hmm, yeah, I'll try not to overpost and do what you and others said though. The thing is that when I'm not sure about someone I want people to post what they think about him so I can change my mind, etc. If I keep everything a secret until I make a "case" or something, then if that read was wrong I may not be able to change it, while I could have changed it if I posted all my "thoughts" and people told me why they were wrong. For instance, that's what happened with austin and S&B, I posted what I thought of them, other players told me why my thoughts were wrong, and it convinced me to change my mind. Had I not made the huge "cases" against austin or S&B and just kept quiet and said "yeah austin scum" or something, then people may have not posted why austin/S&B were town (or why my thoughts on them were wrong) and I may have kept believing they were scum. I guess a simple "what do you think of S&B/austin?" would suffice, but if people don't see the specific reasons I'm suspicious of them they can't respond to those reasons and tell me why those reasons are wrong. | ||
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