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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
Why would you actually have this power if you're mafia? I'm not claiming you have this power and are mafia, I'm claiming you're mafia and have made it up. You aren't even attempting to fit your speculation to facts. If he and kurumi are both mafia, how did they both know that if they didn't communicate? Why would kurumi go along with it? If you are a townie who is just confused by the role, why do you clearly make no attempts at actually considering the facts? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On July 18 2012 06:06 austinmcc wrote: Since you don't know each other's identities, you don't get much town cred from just voting a guy. But making up a role to trick scum into outing themselves, now there's some town cred. Normal bussing = less cred this game. So you've just figured out a creative way to bus to get yourself cred. This is so retarded. EVERYONE ALREADY REALISES THIS IS A POSSIBILITY. It doesn't need you banging on about it repeatedly for people to bear it in mind | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On July 18 2012 06:06 austinmcc wrote: The role itself already cripples mafia. You can plant false messages. You can direct their targets. It's not a choice between giving mafia certainty and giving mafia doubt. Here's the super important distinction. It's actually a choice between giving mafia certainty that they shouldn't have (they are certain any directions are coming from scumbuddies, when in fact they are being directed by a townie) vs. giving mafia doubt. Insert some philosophical line about the enemy you don't see being more dangerous than the enemy you do see. This has already been refuted in how it doesn't cripple mafia. Players in a given game aren't mindless drones. If you try to trap someone the way sandro did, only a careless player will get caught. For example, I would never do what Kurumi did because as scum I tend to operate alone. I don't trust even my scumbuddies because often it is they who get me killed. It is here where Austin's comparison to a cop fails and if he were town he would realize this. In fact he wouldn't be so concerned about balance that hurts mafia when the balance of a role does not determine the holder's alignment. On July 18 2012 06:06 austinmcc wrote: Why not fully claim as any alignment? You think you're going to get shot. This is also very easily answered and it's clear that Austin has an agenda here. A townie has an interest in keeping his role secret if he believes he's going to die. Why? Town doesn't benefit very much from knowing the player's role because we can't honestly expect to gain anything from it. What are we going to gain? Some useless knowledge about the specifics of his role that don't affect us because it's he who has it, not us. We can't catch scum based on knowing how his role works. However, there is a HUGE benefit for scum if sandro claims. They then know what they are up against and can decide whether or not to kill, or roleblock sandro. This is different, for example, from asking someone about an ability they have claimed to use (for example a block or a nuke) and asking them to roleclaim in full. VE called me out for "rolefishing" earlier and that's disingenuous on his part. I was trying to get at something based on whether VE had a block or not and he refused, it just means we can't progress any further. I never asked for him to actually roleclaim (because to me his role doesn't matter). There's a difference here, but it's subtle. I don't want to really dig further because it may prove useful later to hold onto this info. + Show Spoiler + the usefulness comes in when two players claim to have the same ability On July 18 2012 06:06 austinmcc wrote:Why would you actually have this power if you're mafia? I'm not claiming you have this power and are mafia, I'm claiming you're mafia and have made it up. What's mafia's main advantage in this game? Large numbers. What's mafia's main disadvantage this game? Less information, can't confirm each other. BOTH of these lead to it being more likely mafia will kill each other. Accidentally, or on purpose (the cost of bussing a member of a 9-man team is less than the cost of bussing a member of a 3 or 6-man team). Since you don't know each other's identities, you don't get much town cred from just voting a guy. But making up a role to trick scum into outing themselves, now there's some town cred. Normal bussing = less cred this game. So you've just figured out a creative way to bus to get yourself cred. Here's where Austin's argument utterly fails and his agenda shines through. First of all, sandro's probably the laziest scum I've ever played with. Unless he's magically become so good at playing mafia, the chance of him being scum right now is next to 0. Remember what I said about Austin having to his plausibility as the basis of his argument? Well, he tries to make it plausible first that sandro could be scum before even considering actually calling him scum. The problem is that it's not very plausible because in order to believe sandro is scum you have to ignore Occam's Razor and ignore a vast amount of motivational evidence that is already present in the thread that points toward sandro being town. I've already shown that it is in the interest of scum and not town to seek a full roleclaim from sandro. It's also obviously in the interest of mafia to kill sandro right now, and it's in the interest of mafia to undermine sandro so that the damage is minimized. None of these things have town motivations for a player of austin's calibre. Trust me, he's not bad and he's not stupid. I've seen his reads myself and normally they are well thought out and not logically inconsistent or convoluted. Wiggles's LVI is a great read if you don't believe me. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Remember what I said about Austin having to refer to plausibility as the basis of his argument? also, I forgot to mention that if a townie thinks he's going to die, his death is his full roleclaim. It forces scum to do something about him, whereas if he roleclaimed in full before dying scum could simply choose not to kill him based on the knowledge he has then provided them. Last thing I wanted to say is that if players like GGQ and BM continue to stay on the outskirts of town discussion then we need to start considering putting bullets into their skulls and nooses around their necks. Layabout falls into this category too, and since I see there are too many players like this for now, we need to move on and kill the players we can actually formulate reads on. By no means is this a free pass. I'm pretty tired of people signing up for games and not playing. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On July 18 2012 06:26 marvellosity wrote: bugs, have you so quickly forgotten that austin went on for about 2 cycles with the toad/kita/MZ conspiracy in LV? ' I don't remember that, no. I'm kinda rereading that now. If you're right then I might be wrong. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On July 17 2012 03:42 GGQ wrote: What? Why? What would that accomplish? How would that help us find scum? Palmar does that shit all the time. It's stupid and unhelpful but arguing about it has never changed him before and it won't now. ##vote blazinghand You know, GCQ, I get it. Other people are asking you why you've posted a reply to MZ and voted me with no explanation, but you don't feel a need to respond to them at all since they're not nearly as sexy as me. At the very least, answer me, the guy you're voting: why did you vote me? what's your case? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
So yeah, let's lynch austin. Leaves us more time to think about BH/Laya, which I'm not entirely positive on being scum yet. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On July 18 2012 06:32 wherebugsgo wrote: ' I don't remember that, no. I'm kinda rereading that now. If you're right then I might be wrong. I know austin far better than anyone else in this game. Contrary to what you state he is quite likely to get sidetracked with tangents. So this is not a strong point. What *is* a strong point is the one about the roleclaiming. What benefit does austin see other than that austin may or may not trust sandroba more or less? You are absolutely right that a full roleclaim does nothing for town because we cannot use sandroba's ability whether he fully claims or not. This is what your case rests on, and it is good. | ||
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
On July 18 2012 06:21 marvellosity wrote: for tonight, 6h 40 mins Okey good thanks, I just finnished reading up on the thread and I'd say I did better then skimming but not really a thorough readthrough either. Right now I'm feeling of a mind to join in on the austin wagon. It seems nice there. | ||
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Katina
United States454 Posts
There is no way there will be a Foolishness or a Sandroba lynch today. Syllogism, or Blazinghand is most likely at this point maybe Austin (depends on everyone else) Since WBG is pushing him pretty hard right now. Kurumi is getting nuked so that's a done deal. I feel like lots of people are trying to throw doubt around last minute here. Once night hits these people should be looked at (EX: austin, marv) Right now both Syllogism and Blazinghand is near the top of my suspicion list and these two are the main candidates for lynch today. Blazinghand hasn't been around in for a bit while Syllogism has been here trying to defend himself and push his suspicions of Foolishness (Who is also scummy to me) I would like to give Syllo another day and see what happens. So I will be voting for Blazhinghand today. I'm sure enough about austin yet to consider him a lynch candidate today I will wait and see what happens later on. ##Unvote Kurumi ##Vote Blazinghand Depending on his flip and who dies during the night hopefully we will have a more organized D2. | ||
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Katina
United States454 Posts
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
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NoSmurfHere
New Zealand613 Posts
On July 18 2012 06:37 sandroba wrote: Fuck new information comes up too fast. Did you play in the game you referred to bugs? I played in both LV and LVI. I was NoSmurfHere in LVI. In LVI Austin had posts like these: On July 01 2012 22:44 austinmcc wrote: I'm not comfortable with a Broodking lynch right at this point, although it looks like that wagon has passed somewhat. For one thing, from what I remember, he's been mislynched a few times (out of a small sample size).
I'll admit that I don't find "BKE often looks scummy as town" to be strong reasoning, but for D1 it's enough that I don't want lynch him. I also thought BKE had played in another game or two, but didn't see more in his profile. However, I'd love for him to clarify his first post, given all this discussion. Broodking, you say that you don't consider those with 4 or 5 games newbies. The rest of the players seem to disagree, and I know that I do (no more newbie games allowed =/= not a newbie in my mind). IF you accept a much more broad definition of noob, like the thread seems to want, would you alter your first post? Should people with something like 4-8 games be treated like the noobs in your post, or treated like more seasoned players? I'm alright with adding my vote to mK right now. The whole "role name" thing is actually what I thought Mattchew was referring to earlier when he said a previous poster looked super townie to him, and that was my dumb "don't think you should be trusting that" post. It's in VT pms, it's in the OP, if scum received the VT pm then they had it too, etc. Worried that mK's reaction is a blue who didn't read vs. scum who didn't read (those are the obvious options, so don't get on my junk about possibly revealing blues), but if so, he can defend himself if he ever returns to the thread. The absence in the face of votes doesn't look good to me from that standpoint. NoSmurf, initially I read you as one of the more sensible and townie folks in the thread. However, this caught my eye somewhat: Care to explain your train of thought? Over the course of 2 hours, you went from "probably town" to "completely fine with Mandalor lynch/scumread on Mandalor." Would like for you to articulate why you changed your read there. In this post he comments on the day 1 lynch (BKE) and correctly identifies him as town. My basis on d1 that game for identifying the strongest town players was those who agreed with my assessment that BKE was town. Austin was one of those players and he was shot like n2 because he had at least 3 correct reads and he rapidly established himself as town (though he was unlikely to be protted). He was one of the only players who suspected Acrofales and he supported me in my Katina push. I don't remember much from LV but based on a skim of his filter there I do think that marv is right about that, that he was concerned with MZ + Kita + Toad being scum. However I do strongly believe that Austin is a capable player and a capable scumhunter. In particular his question to Kurumi of "aren't you curious about what out-ed you?" is incredibly strange. He's treating Kurumi like scum, but instead of moving on and trying to find other scum he tries to get sandro to roleclaim. What difference does knowing sandro's role make in determining sandro's alignment? I mean, there are 9 scum in this game. It's phenomenally easy to scumhunt just in terms of numbers, yet Austin's sole concern has been the balance of sandro's claimed role. In LV I don't remember him frothing at the mouth because he thought kita + MZ + toad were scum together. | ||
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