EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XX
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JingleHell
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JingleHell
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Easy to coordinate, relatively private. | ||
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JingleHell
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JingleHell
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JingleHell
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Unless the time is showing up correctly and you're just trying to distract me until role PMs go out? Clearly a conspiracy. I vote we policy lynch release. | ||
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JingleHell
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On July 04 2012 11:10 Radfield wrote: My apologies everyone!! Got a little tied up here! Ahh. The infamous Woman - The only special power that can, unlimited times per day or night, roleblock anyone, including the host. Or so I assume. | ||
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JingleHell
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JingleHell
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JingleHell
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JingleHell
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FoS is Finger of Suspicion. It means I have my eye on you. Also, does anyone else find it scummy that a male geek is trying to say he doesn't understand a reference to a widely popularized sex toy? | ||
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JingleHell
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On July 05 2012 07:01 Evulrabbitz wrote: Considering I have used this nickname over the course of several years am I the only one who finds it suspicious that JingleHell is the first the reference it to a sex toy? Does that not tell us about what kind of shady traits said person might have in his core personality. Definitely not trustworthy. Trust me you don't want to try and figure it out from work. It's not some scary thing, but I sincerely doubt any place referring to it is something you should open at work. As for core personality traits, what in the hell would those have to do with being scum or not? Trying to direct attention at me based on the person behind the randomized role is ridiculous. It's almost as ridiculous as pointing suspicion at someone based on their username, which I have discovered is an excellent method for getting people to start talking, which is decidedly beneficial to the town. | ||
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JingleHell
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On July 05 2012 07:09 The_Zen_Man wrote: Hey guys, this will be my third game. I learned a lot from my previous game, and hope i can play better now. I will be going to sleep now, but more post will come tomorrow. Btw, i tried googling for evulrabbitz sex toy, but nothing came up. You're not creative enough. It's not quite that direct of a correlation. | ||
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JingleHell
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And no, you're on the right track, but you've got some extra letters there. | ||
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On July 05 2012 07:30 Hopeless1der wrote: I think Jingle's got us covered with the perverted sex toy discussions. It's really not that perverted of a toy. What do you people take me for? This isn't like the chainsaw thing in Eurotrip, damn. However, now I'm going to add an FoS Hopeless for jumping on the bandwagon of hinting that I'm some sort of perv with a complete throwaway post. | ||
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JingleHell
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JingleHell
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Also, just as wonky meta, compared to your D1 play in XIX, I'm pretty sure you're town here. You're not afraid of prolific D1 posting, among other things. Actually, I'm VERY suspicious about YourHarry's lightning fast vote. Could be a throwaway effort to get a bandwagon started, since D1 voting is nonsense in newbie games. In the case of a mislynch, it would be easy to argue away. | ||
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JingleHell
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Your quote on Hopeless wasn't what I'd call a real reason to vote for someone who's at least being active, and not particularly suspicious. Voting for him that way makes you look scummy, considering you've said nothing of real substance yet. | ||
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In particular, compared to his play in a different game, where he seemed painfully scummy, Hopeless1der seems like he's heading for direct contribution. | ||
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JingleHell
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Hopeless's play is different enough from D1 there, where I won't be convinced he's town unless he flips, that I'm convinced he's town here. In particular he doesn't seem scared of prolific posting in the early game. And I prefer substantial pressure. If there's nothing to refute, there's no argument to give off an odor. And the odds of hitting a townie with random votes are way higher than the odds of hitting scum. | ||
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JingleHell
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maybe I got the scum by chance Funny, when it's 3/13... 23% chance. That's not good odds in my book. You sound scummy. | ||
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On July 05 2012 08:38 TMG26 wrote: It's a 13 player game, and only 3 mobsters, so there is still a room for a litle mistake on day1 With a random vote on day 1 the probability of hitting scum is low, but missing wont be that dangerous, the question that i want to make is: With this low ratio of scum, does the nolynch becomes more or less viable? I'm still a newbie in mafia games, thats one of the reasons of asking this questing And sorry about my bad english, i'm not a native speaker About what being happening here.. Lazer was not clear on what he said, Hopeless stated that, and yourHarry immidiatly voted Hopeless for that So, in my opinion if we want to catch the scum we have to confront them, so i Hopeless did the right thing...But so did yourHarry, what i find funny was JingleHell jumping in to declare FoS on yourHarry In my opinion Hopeless and yourHarry did almost same same thing My main suspects right now fall to yourHarry and JingleHell, because your acusations seammed more like a counter acusation after a "scum teammate" being acused But is all still too light, a lot of people still havent spoken Wait, so my actual reasoning is supposed to be an OMGUS, and Harry's suggestion that 23% is gambling odds is only equally suspicious as my case? When my case was based purely off of suspicious behavior, and my defense was based on the lack of substance, which was the grounds for my accusation? Not only does that not make any logical sense, it also feels like exactly what you just accused me of doing. | ||
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JingleHell
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If you want to see what showed me that early voting with no rationalization at all is bad, go see D1 XIX. Ridiculous mislynch, because of votes with zero substance. I won't bother demonstrating what's the difference between my vote on Harry and his vote on Hopeless, because if enough people can't figure it out for themselves to avoid a mislynch on me, I think it'd be the preferable alternative for my sanity, and for the resulting information. By the way, from within the same post: BTW, I am not OMGUSing Jingle. ##Vote Jingle It's like Harry is a stand-up comedian. | ||
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On July 05 2012 10:34 Lazermonkey wrote: You clearly are not getting the point here. Noone has even been close to getting lynched yet. Plurality Lynch must be completely confusing. 7. Whomever has the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched! Unless that means something entirely different than what it says, we aren't running majority lynch. | ||
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On July 05 2012 10:49 TMG26 wrote: Even if it is Plurality Lynch, there's still 40 hours left And its again funny to see that Hopeless jumped on your defence... After you had already voted harry after harry voted hopeless In my mind, you and harry are the prime suspects..but only a few hours have passed, and i dont want to jump into bad conclusions Hopeless is pointing to the meta, feel free to check it, unless you prefer to bandwagon on a case made out of paper mache. | ||
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JingleHell
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My light commitments and obvious easy comments are mostly because there's little to discuss without stooping to their level. If I don't play their game, and I don't want to get the bandwagon rolling violently over a towny, then the best thing to do is observe and respond, rather than letting myself get dragged into some OMGUS shouting match that only benefits scum. | ||
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On July 05 2012 09:18 YourHarry wrote: Here, someone may question whether my initial vote against Hopeless also makes me scummy for above reason. But as I explained, I don't particularly find him scummy and my initial attempt to incite responses from him and others did partially succeed - mostly in the forms of accusations toward me. You didn't even begin to answer them sufficiently, all you did was repeat yourself. You want to gamble, based on all your anecdotal experience playing with completely different people. That's great and all, but I consider it scummy. Now, considering that you seem to think votes are "just pressure" or some such, if you're really town, and think you can defend yourself adequately, why are you so concerned by my vote? Unless there's something to what I said, which you didn't seem to acknowledge, as you and lazer have made it into the basis of a "case" against me, then you shouldn't be bothered in the slightest. And if you do admit that there's something to what I said, you probably should have unvoted Hopeless instead of trying to start attacking me because of "just pressure". That would make sense, right? | ||
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On July 05 2012 11:29 YourHarry wrote: What we want is a substantial discussion. But in order to get there, we have to start somewhere. Some random votes or some FOS on evidence that may seem trivial at first allows us to start up such discussions. Personally, I like to apply pressure - it usually works well for me in the past. And this is why I am questioning you now. You can answer my questions, in a logical manner. At this time, the only reason I am voting you is because I cannot understand the basis for your thinking that I am scum. While townies also do make mistakes during lynches and can sometimes be stubborn at times, in average townies tend to be more logical. Damn it, should have refreshed. I've already outlined my logic. See my previous post, then decide if you really want to discuss logic, when it's very much against you. | ||
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JingleHell
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The day1 voting reference was talking about people bandwagoning onto any case built on nothing, as I actually discussed. Which you completely ignored. It's like you dug through 20% of my filter and ignored all the inconvenient parts. You sound like Lazer's pet parrot. Like I said, if people D1 lynch me based off bad jokes like you and lazer's posts, the town is doomed anyways. | ||
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On July 05 2012 11:55 YourHarry wrote: I never said I wanted to gamble. I said in the worst case, IF my voting based on less than substantial evidence actually DOES leads to a lynch, it may still be not the worst thing in the world because there is some chance that I might have picked the scum. It was a supporting evidence to my argument why it is OK to random vote in the beginning of day 1 (in fact, I think we SHOULD start voting light in the beginning, just to start reasonable discussion. Again, I have never advocated random voting. And even if this is a newbie game, people can read and discriminate bandwagon based on random vote vs. a case based on substantial evidence. You are saying that you experienced otherwise. If true, I would say that it was an exception rather than the norm. Ultimately, there is not much point in playing mafia if people you are playing with are incapable making such discrimination. I am not bothered, per se. I wanted you to explain why you think I am scum because your response did not make much sense to me. That said, beside what seems to be unreasonable suspicion against me, I do not get a scum vibe from you. ##Unvote Fair enough. May have just been we both didn't quite grasp each other's meanings quite as well as we thought we did. Now that you put it in those words, it actually seems much more logical. We're probably both a bit guilty of letting ourselves get expectations based on a combination of WIFOM and what we've seen. As for the bit I've bolded, well, we don't always get to pick the people we play with, or their thought processes. Although I think for the most part, people are demonstrating a flaw of "vote for discussion". If the lurkers end up being town, you may well end up with a light vote on someone giving scum room to make something resembling a case from small fractions of a filter. ##Unvote | ||
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On July 05 2012 12:01 YourHarry wrote: I realized I didn't answer this question. 1. I vote lightly in the beginning of the game, unless a player is close to lynch. With 13 players, it requires 7 to lynch. Even with lazer's vote, which came after mine, you had total of 2 votes. FYI, this is why you shouldn't expect everything to be the same here as at mafiascum. Not all TL games use majority voting for lynch. This game is plurality. Highest vote count gets lynched. | ||
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JingleHell
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Instead of cluttering things up, I'll just say that Bass and Lazer's analysis on TMG sounds good, and I'll be interested in seeing what he has to say. | ||
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On July 06 2012 00:00 Release wrote: This is kind of interesting You defend Lazer and try to downplay the importance of first posts (despite Lazer calling his own post bad). Absolutely not. If his post caught traction, we would waste lots of time. Your post did catch traction, but we hardly wasted any significant amount of time. Something meaningless works better than what he did because we know it's not serious. You know it, i know it, he knows it, but he chose to choose something "significant." TMG looks rather shit, but if his english actually sucks, then we have a serious problem. Lurkers speak up now. I will lynch you if Lazer is not a serious contender. How is that a defense? It's my own read on it. I think it was a relatively useless post, which I've never hidden, but I don't see trouble in motive, just implementation. Same thing you're saying, less effort to saying it. | ||
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JingleHell
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On July 06 2012 08:49 Mackin wrote: Oh and I might as well put my thoughts on Jingle since I won't be back for hours... Jingle looks like the type of Mafia player who is so good they cruise along for days without people realising he's Mafia (when he is playing as it). I'm totally not saying he is scum, I honestly just can't get a good read from checking through his posts so far. Everyone else I'm meeeh on because I'll fall asleep on the keyboard if I read for much longer  Honestly, while me saying this won't be convincing, especially because of WIFOM, I'm much more careful when I'm playing scum. I need to work on consistency, really. Sorry I've been away, I randomly get busy with my three year old son, TKD, or books I suddenly decide to re-read. Or the tech board. Uhm, right now, I'm going to say Jiexian doesn't look scummy based on the meta, in XVIII when he said good night in the thread, he generally used it as an excuse to get out of the thread and would stay in the QT for quite a while chatting. His "oh yeah" type posts after saying good night earlier suggest less paranoia, so based purely on meta, I'm guessing townie at this point, but the statistical sampling IS kind of small. | ||
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JingleHell
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On July 06 2012 20:43 Lazermonkey wrote: Am I the only one who wonder where JingleHell disappeared? Starting of as THE most active player in the game, he quickly dropped of when he got unvoted by YourHarry. Since then he have only posted 4 times. The second one is this: So instead of actually answering any of the questions from me he starts getting nice etc. My first post was not contradictory, I have already said that a dozen of times, you don't need to tell me that. This just feels like him wanting to avoid any questions. You are just posting town reads all over the place. I made a quick overlook at Newbie XVIII where you were town and it looked like you were posting quite alot of suspicions and not many town reads at all. This game is the complete oppsosite. You havn't taken any clear stance on who you are suspicious of yet. You only mention those who you think is town. This is great scum play, as when they get misslynched/killed, you will look better for claiming they were innocent. I am still VERY suspicious of you Jingle... I'm not playing nice, I'm telling them to make cases on you not be grounded on something that's clearly down to how you read it. I'm not bothering to post here as much because frankly, I'd rather watch people post when it looks like a half schitzo paranoid delusional 3 headed monster shouting at itself. Don't like it, maybe people should stop making 30 second cases and then chasing the next person that posts around. If you're so suspicious of me, do us all a favor, vote for me, and watch me flip green. It'll be tons of information that nobody will use. | ||
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JingleHell
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I never claimed not to have been part of the shouting earlier, but it's gotten much much worse, since now everyone talking a lot is accusing almost everyone else who isn't. Me personally, I'll be enjoying seeing what comes at the end of the day, as it will provide us with plenty of information. For the time being, though, ##Vote Lazermonkey It's got to be somewhere, and your self-love and expectation that everyone else will dance to your tune strikes me as scummy. | ||
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On July 07 2012 00:27 BassInSpace wrote: Jingle, are you saying you don't think Hopeless is scum? If you think this is a mislynch, mind telling us why exactly you think Hopeless is town? Also FYI Lazer, Jingle was mafia in NMM XVIII, not town. I already did. It's inconclusive, but it's already on the record. The big issue is that it's based in meta from a game where he hasn't flipped yet. And, of course, most of the people here are so busy being too smart for their own good that they can't realize that I'm actually not being scummy. I also expect a D1 lynch to almost always be a mislynch, because the odds of latching onto the right person with minimal information are kind of bad. And, of course, if anyone feels the need to put together a case against me that isn't smoke and mirrors, I'll happily respond, but frankly, under the current circumstances, I'd rather provide information via getting mislynched than beat my head against the brick wall of the people going berserk on attacking everyone. Actually, if we want to find out who's being scummy, since this is a newbie game, is look for the people who are trying too hard to be the polar opposite of scummy based on the various guides. So look for prolific posters who find a way to turn every single word into a scumslip, are obsessed with analysis, and want to take the lead. You should find at least two scum that way. | ||
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JingleHell
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I fully expect the majority of scum in newbie games to overdo un-scumminess. And with so many people in rabid "Has to be my read that seals the deal" mode, the scum are able to hide in plain sight doing exactly that. | ||
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On July 07 2012 00:54 Lazermonkey wrote: Jingle what info will we get from you, assuming you flip town? You havn't posted any scum reads(except for me I guess). You'll get the info of who led a theoretical case against me based off of smoke and mirrors. I would have thought that was obvious, although it might be a bit too substantial for most of the people who took over the thread by screaming at anyone who posted. You'll get the info of who votes where. And you'll get the info that I'm still unimpressed by anyone who bases a case off of my (actually succesful) means of getting conversation started. Oh wait, that's been available for a while now. But like I said, I'm not in the mood to slam repeatedly against circular logic, so I'm waiting to see how the D1 lynch goes, at which point there will be more info to make a read off of. | ||
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On July 07 2012 01:11 Lazermonkey wrote: I am doing a case against you because I think you are scummy. I will push people I think are scummy. If they flip green because they play bad, i can't be blamed for that. Playing badly? Like excessively prolific posts with "reads" based off of nothing, pointing fingers in a million directions at once, creating chaos, and picking and choosing what posts to analyze? Yeah, you actually can be blamed for that. | ||
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On July 07 2012 01:24 Lazermonkey wrote: EBWOP: Where is my reads based on nothing? On July 05 2012 09:54 Lazermonkey wrote:+ Show Spoiler + I'm getting suspicious of Jingle. On July 05 2012 06:43 JingleHell wrote: So, since Lazer already opened with the pre-requisite long-winded "Please don't lynch me" post, I'd feel silly making a similar one, so instead, I'm going to open by asking Evulrabbitz why his name references a sex toy. After that question, of course, it suddenly feels awkward, but unless he can answer it well, FoS Evulrabbitz 1st post. Instead of commenting on my post he starts to ridicule it, effectivly killing discussion about it. Instead he is the first one to start shit up the thread with sex-toy w/e. Also, instead of posting his own reads he says I'd feel silly making a similar one which doesn't make any sense at all. I'd much rather have a post about your thought's on scum hunting rather than sex toys. At least when we are playing mafia... The next couple of posts he is effectivly fills half the thread with his talk about Evul being a perv and what not. On July 05 2012 07:56 JingleHell wrote: Well, Hopeless, since you're at least talking, I don't think you're scum yet. However, if day1 lurkers start causing trouble, I'm all for just throwing the dice and lynching one just to make a clear point. Also, just as wonky meta, compared to your D1 play in XIX, I'm pretty sure you're town here. You're not afraid of prolific D1 posting, among other things. Actually, I'm VERY suspicious about YourHarry's lightning fast vote. Could be a throwaway effort to get a bandwagon started, since D1 voting is nonsense in newbie games. In the case of a mislynch, it would be easy to argue away. If you would write this as a first time player I could be somewhat cool with it. But you are not. We want to lynch scum, not lurkers. And we absolutly don't want to roll the dice. And I really don't see how you are very suspicious about the vote. There were ~50 hours untill deadline when he threw the vote. How is this even close to start a bandwagon? Like wtf? On July 05 2012 08:05 JingleHell wrote: EBWOP: And Harry, don't try to turn my logic around on me, my vote was based on your suspicious vote. Your quote on Hopeless wasn't what I'd call a real reason to vote for someone who's at least being active, and not particularly suspicious. Voting for him that way makes you look scummy, considering you've said nothing of real substance yet. But at this point you only had one minor post of substance as well. On July 05 2012 08:13 JingleHell wrote: I couldn't care less how many games you've played on mafiascum. As it turns out, in newbie games on TL, D1 bandwagons have a tendency to be lethal, particularly if there's no substance to the case to defend against. As such, it's better to target someone who's being either actively or passively useless, not somebody who's at least jumping into the deep end. In particular, compared to his play in a different game, where he seemed painfully scummy, Hopeless1der seems like he's heading for direct contribution. I don't get this post. I may be missunderstanding this but if there is no substance to the case then why would that even be considered a case? And why on earth would someone ever get lynched by such a ''case'' On July 05 2012 08:13 JingleHell wrote: I couldn't care less how many games you've played on mafiascum. As it turns out, in newbie games on TL, D1 bandwagons have a tendency to be lethal, particularly if there's no substance to the case to defend against. As such, it's better to target someone who's being either actively or passively useless, not somebody who's at least jumping into the deep end. In particular, compared to his play in a different game, where he seemed painfully scummy, Hopeless1der seems like he's heading for direct contribution. Once again, there is no threat of a bandwagon at all. Why do you keep saying that? What I find maybe most intresting is how you start the game by shitting up the thread and literally don't post a single usefull thing. When the first vote get thrown tho, You go ''WTF DUDE, VOTING IZ NOT COOL''. No, I agree that the reasoning behind the vote to begin with was verrrry vauge but I don't really see why you get so upset about it ESPICIALLY since it's not even on you. ##Vote JingleHell You target me for a laundry list of things. A: You're offended that I blew off your rather annoying policy post that, you'll notice, nobody else liked either. B: You don't like me saying that excessive lurking, in absence of clear scumreads, is a valid reason to lynch. C: You don't have the capacity for sufficient critical though to realize that in a plurality lynch game, an early bandwagon can easily stick. Your entire initial "read" against me was based on fluff, taking me out of context, and ignoring reality. Why should I bother paying any attention to you later, when you continue to tunnel me, while decrying tunnel vision? | ||
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On July 07 2012 01:31 Lazermonkey wrote: Okay, I will go soon and may or may not be at home at the deadline. I will have my phone tho so I am able to check the thread and swap my vote if that is necessary. I will keep my vote on Jingle as of now, although that may change during the rest of the day. I will also change my vote to most scummy person in case there is a close voting. Here is my wish list for people I want dead: 1. Jingle. 2. JieXian 3. Hope/TMG Oh look, asks for an explanation, gets it, and says he has to go without responding. Almost sounds like Jiexian in XVIII a couple of times, where he posted in the QT for like 3 hours after telling the thread he was going to sleep. Did I mention he was scum in that game? | ||
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On July 07 2012 01:38 Lazermonkey wrote: The amount of WIFOM in this post in beyond possible. It's friday evening in sweden atm. Yes, I am going soon. Well, don't forget to leave your scum buddies instructions to try and save you at the last minute in case people notice my points here. | ||
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On July 07 2012 01:42 Lazermonkey wrote: A: No, you don't read. I offend you bacause talking about sex toys is 100x worse than talking about blues/policy in regards to scum hunting B: How you cannot how scum reads at this point is impressive. C: No, not with 48 hours untill lynch. Right now, yes probebly. But not then. You contradict yourself. in your last post you said I accused everyone. Now you say I tunnel you. Uhm. How I can't have scumreads NOW? I do have some now, including you. I didn't back then. Funny how you try to make points B and C not work on the same timescale, specifically, in the context of the time those posts were from. This is blatant tunneling, horrendous contradiction, terrible analysis, and scummy as all hell. I rest my case. | ||
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What do you think of my read on Lazer? | ||
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On July 07 2012 02:19 Lazermonkey wrote: Posting from phone. Jingle, before I started pressuring you didn't have any scum reads or suspiciouns. You only posted town reads all over the place. Yoy said the case against TMG were good but you didn't pressure at all ans didn't call him scum or vote him. I don't get what you mean with ''can't get C and B work at the same time. Doesn't C refer to the start of the game where you and others used the threat of a bandwagon as an argument against agast YourHarrys early vote? You're taking a response that's based in context, that specific post, which is where 100% of your baseless attack comes from. Part of your response is in the context of the time it was posted, another part is based in current context. You're saying I should have scum reads now, which has nothing to do with the post I responded to, when there weren't any clear ones. But for the other part, where it's convenient to stay in context, you do. You're tunneling me, and bouncing around like a cricket on meth. Of course I'm going to try to ignore it, and call it scummy. It doesn't make any sense at all, unless you blatantly misinterpret things and ignore context. | ||
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On July 07 2012 02:29 JieXian wrote: Jingle I think your read on Lazer sucks because I've got a better one. Too bad he's gone and I got to sleep soon. I was waiting for more posts from him. I think you're mixing "case" and "read". Read is just "town vs scum", case is "how it's proven". I've not built some massive thing with piles of evidence, just going off a small subset that screams scum. | ||
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On July 07 2012 02:37 Hapahauli wrote: DAFUQ? Do you honestly believe that Lazer is a better case than Hopeless? DAFUQ? Jingle and JieXian are better cases than Hopeless? Stop pointing fingers, focus on one read, and build a substantial case. Thanks for suggesting tunnel vision in defense of lazer, to help substantiate what Jiexian said. | ||
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I suppose I should bow before the superior reasoning power of someone who ignores everything recent and goes based off of the fact that two people were able to overcome a difference of opinion and get on with business? And please, explain to me what makes my recent explanation of why the "case" against me is smoke and mirrors so inferior to if I had done it considerably earlier? I was hoping we could get on with productive hunting instead of getting sidetracked by such a joke. Go ahead, lurker, explain to us why you've earned so much more credibility than me? | ||
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On July 07 2012 04:14 Hapahauli wrote: I hope this is the last I'll say on this topic, but with the recent wave of posting, I'm not optimistic. Why the hell is the town going after controversial players? We should be going after suspicious players! LazerMonkey is a TOWNIE! Its so blitheringly obvious! Lazer has been under relentless pressure since day 1 and hasn't said anything remotely incriminating. He has been calling out lurkers, making cases, has been active, and freely speaks his mind! Fingerpointing =/= suspicious behavior. Agreeing with people =/= suspicious behavior. What's important is that we find someone acting suspicious in a mafia-oriented way. We're looking for deflection, deception, dishonesty... Lazer's shown NONE of those traits! There are SO MANY BETTER TARGETS for pressure than Lazer right now! There are multiple lurking players with low post counts that we should be scrutinizing! We already have an obvious D1 lynch target in Hopeless1der - we don't have to create a case against a controversial, clearly town-alligned player! If he's so clearly town aligned, why are you so desperate to convince people? It should be easy to see. Hence "clearly"? | ||
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On July 07 2012 04:34 Hapahauli wrote: You, Zen, Release, and JieXian have all launched votes/FOS/cases against Lazer. I want you to all stop running around in circles, start pressure non-obvious townies, and get the obvious mafia (Hopeless1der) lynched. So since your case has failed to convince us, you instead imply that all other cases are worse than yours, and anyone who disagrees with your tunnel vision is stupid? Great plan. How about you actually convince people, instead of just trying to get peer pressure started. | ||
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You call it a bandwagon, even though it seems to be multiple people who have decided that he's at best unintentionally divisive, and at worst scum. Either way, if he gets lynched, he won't be missed, as he's not going to help the town win in either case. | ||
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You've been casting your net as widely as possible, directing suspicion at almost everyone for a short period of time. It's only as we've gotten closer to the deadline that you suddenly became intensely convinced Hopeless was pure scum, and focused on him. Also, you accuse everyone else of bandwagoning, but you want people you haven't convinced to jump on the bandwagon of your case. I don't buy it. You're Lazer's scumbuddy, most likely. | ||
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Of course, I'd expect nothing more from someone who spent a fair amount of energy buying into Lazer's nonexistent case against me. I'm not entirely convinced you two aren't working together, perhaps in a scum QT? | ||
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I am, however, getting an "actively useless or active scum" vibe out of lazer. I get that in the best case, you want to be the hero by swaying everyone over, but it's not working. Deal with it. Add to your case, or consider other people as well. You didn't seem to have a problem considering almost everyone else earlier in the game... back when there was more chaos and less votes on Lazer... | ||
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On July 07 2012 05:21 Hapahauli wrote: All mafia accusations are based on anecdotal and circumstantial evidence. Do you want me to hack his account and take a SS of his role PM or something? So you're going to pursue a case over "feeling" rather than logic and proof? You've been babbling on and on about how my case is unconvincing and haven't analyzed it at all. Your criticisms (such as the bit about it being based on circumstantial evidence - LOL) are laughable generalizations. Post something useful. Well no shit - I didn't defend lazer when no one was bandwagonning on him. Duh? You contradicted yourself all over the place, all in the name of getting people to dive on the hopeless bandwagon. Also, just because I haven't gone through and provided a play-by-play of my personal opinions, cluttering up the thread, doesn't mean I haven't looked at the case. Oh, the two underlined bits contradict eachother. Just so they're more visible for snickering. | ||
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I should think that votes can stand for themselves when the lynch is decided. Unless you have some real, solid information you're not sharing (It's D1, so only scum do), then you're just guessing, like everyone else, based on WIFOM. Don't be offended that other people disagree with you. | ||
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On July 07 2012 05:43 Hapahauli wrote: Posting analysis is pro-scum behavior. Uh-huh. If you believe Hopeless to be innocent, break down my case and convince me he's innocent. I already told you why, and why, unlike you, I don't require other people to justify my existence. And providing endless clutter that's not going to change anyone's mind, be particularly relevant, or prove a damn thing... yeah, that's pro scum. And since you're trying to convince me to do it, it's backing up my belief that you may well be Lazer's scumbuddy. If hopeless gets lynched and I'm proven right with a green flip, I'm going to do my best to see to it that you and Lazer are next. I'm through with this conversation. | ||
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On July 07 2012 06:08 YourHarry wrote: I have a theory that I don't want to talk about at the moment. But I think it's a BAD idea to lynch lazermonkey Well, I have a vote that I don't want to change without a good reason, so we might just have a stalemate if you aren't willing to talk. | ||
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If he is town, he's actively dangerous, for the reasons I've already outlined, and I'm still unconvinced he's town. That advice was just hopelessly generic effort to grab early town cred, followed by an epileptic accusation spree. | ||
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If he flips town, lynch me. | ||
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On July 07 2012 06:57 Hapahauli wrote: If Lazer flips town, I promise I'll lynch you next. If people come to their senses and Hopeless gets lynched/flips red, I'll also lynch you. How does that sound? Your "bet" suggestion adds to the laundry list of anti-town mentality quotes you've made over the past few hours. Oh, being willing to stand behind my reads is somehow scummy? And you insisting that no matter what happens, you think I'm the scummiest read, just because I don't agree with your omniscience. And, of course, you sidestep the chance to stand behind your "reads". I wonder why... | ||
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I'll see you on the other side of the deadline. | ||
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On July 07 2012 10:13 Release wrote: you two seem awfully pretentious and deceitful, but i didn't see that Hopeless hasn't posted shit since the acusation (probably scared of slipping.) He's set to be lynched. Sounds defeated to me. I'm mostly wondering how you could see me and Lazer being on the same side, when I'm a heavy part of the drive behind the votes on him. Which almost saved hopeless. Now if hopeless flips red, which I doubt, I could see me looking bad, but if he flips green, I'm looking at Hapa, who was overly defending Lazer by pushing hopeless. | ||
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On July 07 2012 10:24 Hapahauli wrote: My case has nothing to do with your misread. Hell, I couldn't give two shits about your misread. My case is based off your scum-slips and anti-town mentality, and there's no shortage of evidence. FOS JingleHell I eagerly anticipate you beating yourself over the head with the WIFOM bat straight into a mislynch. | ||
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I'm guessing that somewhere in the mix, there's too much WIFOM afoot. To answer the accusation of "defending Lazer and flip-flopping", I didn't defend Lazer. I just said his opener didn't feel excessively scummy. I'd say there's a significant difference between defending a guy and saying "meh, that post doesn't feel like a sufficient basis for an accusation". Hopeless, we already know what happened there, I straight up misread. Sucks. So, was there anything not involving those things you wanted me to explain? Sorry, if I try to break down every single thing that's been leveled against me and respond all at once, it would be a giant, confusing post, and frankly, I probably wouldn't get a chance to post it, because I'd be constantly adding to it. | ||
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All you've done is outline about a trillion things in red text, most of them having to do with my interactions with Lazer, and I explained the majority of that. If you have specific points that I haven't addressed, bring them up. I'm aware you don't want to be bothered to actually type anything, since you love links so much, but frankly, if you're going to be too lazy to separate the things I've answered from the things I haven't, I'm sure as hell not going to bother either. tl;dr, put your dick away before I let you step all over it. | ||
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On July 08 2012 02:36 Hapahauli wrote: Since you're apparently (purposefully?) unwilling to actually read my accusation, let me tl;dr it for you: 1) You vote to lynch lazer without providing ANY evidence or analysis. You're welcome to dig through your filter and quote yourself in your defense, but I can't find anything remotely substantial. 2) You defend Hopeless1der without providing ANY evidence or analysis. You are not a stupid person, and we know that from your post games. "Misread" won't cut it - give a good reason for your defense. You spend a lot of time talking about a mysterious "meta" that we still haven't heard anything about. The time you do talk about his meta, its straight-up wrong ("prolific posting" by hopeless... lol). 3) Your cases of anti-town mentality and advice. I'll let the below quote do the talking for me: Holy scum-advice batman! TBH, I'd be perfectly fine with you ignoring everything else I've said if you can explain your way out of this one. Of course, you can also sit back and continue to flame as opposed to defending yourself. You continue to build your rapport of anti-town mentality as opposed to providing anything productive to the town. You continue to flame and throw around "dicks" rather than post anything of substance. Re-post this without your confrontational bullshit, since apparently my tl;dr in the last one was over your head. And to release, I actually have no idea who the fuck grush is. | ||
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On July 08 2012 02:49 Hapahauli wrote: Jingle, I suggest you step outside and go for a walk. After you calm yourself, let me know, and I'll post my questions without the confrontational stuff. Know that I will be aggressively pushing for your lynch if you do not defend yourself. After I calm myself? I'm perfectly calm, as evidenced by the fact that I'm not following your lead across the line from playing the game to being an asshole. I just don't feel the need to turn a game, which should be fun and relaxing, into some abnoxious dick waving contest, and frankly, it wouldn't be good for the town, either. | ||
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Day 2 in XVIII, for example, I caused a mislynch by playing less scummy than the other guy. Yes, it's WIFOM, but literally 100% of this game can come down to that, so it's basically all down to how you read individuals, at the time. However, it seems to be a reasonable trend that scum activity in newbie games, where people have just started and mostly only have the guides and early info to work with, will be based in trying to avoid the scum tells listed in the guides. | ||
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Lazer was attacking me based on the sex toy thing, and was trying to argue that an early bandwagon was no danger, in a plurality lynch game. If an early bandwagon based on literally nothing kicks off, and lurkers vote and vanish, you can literally have someone die 40 hours later if nothing conclusive comes up and grabs a lot of votes. Since that seemed reasonably scummy to me, since I had my horrendous misread on Hopeless, Lazer seemed scummiest at the time. Then, following on that, you came in defending lazer by attacking hopeless (regardless of being correct about hopeless), you were making a more functional defense for Lazer than Lazer himself was. That made it seem to me that you were trying to force a lynch on hopeless to save Lazer. Does that thought process make sense? Or did I ramble too much? | ||
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On July 05 2012 08:29 JingleHell wrote: And I made a very strong read against him and another player in XIX, the reads being linked, and was promptly shot N1, after which, when I wasn't pushing at them, they ignored the attacks completely, pointed to WIFOM, and started trying to direct the town. Mislynch #2 ensued. Hopeless's play is different enough from D1 there, where I won't be convinced he's town unless he flips, that I'm convinced he's town here. In particular he doesn't seem scared of prolific posting in the early game. And I prefer substantial pressure. If there's nothing to refute, there's no argument to give off an odor. And the odds of hitting a townie with random votes are way higher than the odds of hitting scum. That's on page 2 of my filter here. The discussion came from the first Day/Night cycle in XIX, and was incredibly long, but that's the short version of it. And my view on Lazer's bandwagoning stance, again, comes from the fact that this game is plurality lynch. It doesn't take a majority vote, and if someone gets a lot of votes early in the cycle for no compelling reason (hence impossible to provide a rebuttal against) you can't know people will be active later to fix it. And at that point in the game, we DID have a large number not posting yet. Lazer's entire case against me revolved around the sex toy discussion, which I assume hurt his pride since it got people posting effectively without us wasting a lot of time arguing about WIFOM. Oh, and my willingness to lynch lurkers if we didn't have any good reads. I think that came up a few times. Maybe other people don't agree with me on this, but I'm of the opinion, if it's still early game and there's nobody who looks scummy, that people who are indirectly helping the scum by not participating actively are a threat to the town. And like I said, I've been told several times by people I PMed asking for feedback, that I should try to avoid getting into long, drawn out arguments about the merits of groundless cases, which Lazer's definitely was. | ||
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Pages 3 and 4 of my filter, it's a LOT of content. I ended up the N1 NK. And your second bolded part, I was referring to this game, he seemed more willing to post a lot than he did in the early stages of XIX D1. Which is true. | ||
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If you remain intent on screaming that I'm scum after I've explained myself as much as I have, I'm probably not going to convince you, because now you're looking at everything with a severe confirmation bias. Move on to another case, or cast your vote on me, I don't care which, but frankly, I see no value in continuing this line of discussion. | ||
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On July 08 2012 05:52 Hapahauli wrote: I'm just asking you to summarize your thoughts with like 2-3 bullet points on your Hopeless meta case. your main defense has comprised of summary of easy/irrelevant questions. Make up your mind. This is a fairly clear indicator of the confirmation bias I've already called you out for. You're so intent on proving yourself right about me, that you can't even see how you're leaving no rational responses for me. That's like asking "does your wife know you're cheating on her?". There's no right answer. No matter what I say, you see guilt. As it turns out, it's actually possible for you to understand my point of view without agreeing with it. But you're refusing to do so, even though I've laid it out as simply as possible. Why would I bother trying to convince you? This will be my last response to you, until and unless you stop trying to "trick" me into some sort of confession, and start making some sort of sense. Meaning, most likely, this will just be my last response to you. | ||
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On July 08 2012 11:45 Hapahauli wrote: My mind just blew up. Holy shit Jingle. I owe you a drink or something. Like shit. My bad. Yes. I really was just pissed off by Lazer's attitude, which completely colored my gameplay into "whole town can go fuck themselves if they bought into this" mindset. | ||
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Yes, again this is meta, but this time it's based off confirmed meta at least  I'll dig back through the cases here in a minute. | ||
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On July 07 2012 10:00 Release wrote: Fuck fuck fuck fuck. From what i see, the scum has to be Lazer and Jingle (maybe Harry) That wasn't the only time he accused me and Lazer of working together, either. He said it at least twice while we were going at it. And since a large portion of my case against Lazer was predicated on my misread of hopeless, I may dislike Lazer intensely, but I can't really still justify a case against him. But, given that Hopeless flipped red, and the case against lazer almost killed Lazer instead (Release had his vote on Lazer all of D1, longer than even me), Release looks fishy to me right now. Thoughts? | ||
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Frankly, your attack on Hapa makes even less sense to me than the attacks against me did, and I saw my role PM... | ||
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On July 09 2012 05:31 Release wrote: well zen_man posted this day so he won't be modkilled. But his filter is only a page long. I would still like to lynch hapa, but zen_man has not contributed much. Except a huge case followed by a rather meager FOS. then a vote (which i think was prompted). I emphasize again that i would like to lynch hapa who seems to have everyone else in the palm of his hand. ##unvote ##vote: ZenMan If Hapa is scum, it's the craziest WIFOM based gameplan of all time. Even without Hapa's case, there's enough reason to be suspicious of you to merit voting. Oh, and someone who wants to lynch a player for their success scumhunting (as you call it, having us eating out of the palm of his hand, which is a bad attempt at forcing an emotional response rather than a logical one), is probably scum. I don't like Hapa much, but I don't want him lynched for being annoying. 50% success rate on reads, which he's currently at, is still a win for town if he maintains it. | ||
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Of course, it's also possible Zen is actually the DT, and Evulrabbitz is scum, but Zen knows that in the current circumstances a counterclaim would be a waste of time. While it wouldn't seem to make direct sense to clear my name, a scum could consider giving up that piece of information a good way to be confirmed townie in an effort to coast to LYLO. However, this may be the most absurd WIFOM hypothetical I've ever come up with. But I'm throwing it out there so we do consider the alternatives, just in case something strange is happening. | ||
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On July 09 2012 07:39 Lazermonkey wrote: Waitwut!? You understand that Evul must be the DT, right? No, I understand that it's incredibly likely he's the DT. Or were you suggesting that it's absolutely impossible for people to lie? Just because under the circumstances it seems improbable that he's not the DT doesn't mean he must be the DT. Of course, you're so focused on being smarter than everyone else that you're not willing to think outside the box. Why didn't you quote the part where I mentioned that I was talking about WIFOM to the point of absurdity? Because you were too busy wanting to try and beat me over the head with your ego? Pretty much. | ||
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But yeah, I pretty much just went with the most absurd possibility I could come up with for reminding people to make an open mind so that nobody would mistake it for a good reason to try and start a case when we do have what seems to be better options. There's a fine line between open mind and insane, after all. | ||
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On July 09 2012 07:51 Lazermonkey wrote: Yes, I'm making the assumption that Evul is not the most retarded person on earth. Him fake claiming at this point would mean that the only way for him to win is if the real DT doesn't counter claim. Why wouldn't the real DT counter claim in this spot? I'm not claiming to be smart, you however are simply dumb. You are a confirmed townie but that doesn't make your reads correct. No, you're so fucking busy trying to be king shit that you can't understand the purpose of the post, and the reason I went with something absurd. I'm guessing you've still got your panties in a bunch over me dismissing your long-winded first post and actually succeeding at starting the conversation with sex toys. | ||
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I can't imagine in what world Lazer thinks I'm going to listen to him when he alternates between coercive and insulting every time he vomits forth more ego-ridden horse shit into the thread. Regardless, kill the miller/scum now, and worry about aftermath later. If Bass is the miller, I'd call that a good time to start looking at who voted where again, and start to reconsider some of our basic premises we've been trying to work from. | ||
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On July 13 2012 05:01 Hapahauli wrote: We're bandwagoning a guy with pro-town behavior on the hope and prayer that he's mafia. This is the last newbie game I'm ever playing. I hope for my sanity that you guys are right. If Bass isn't scum, I'd suggest you start looking closely at people who have tried to dominate the thread and control where people voted, tried to stop discussion they didn't like, tried to force reaction over thought, and made personal attacks against anyone who suggested thinking outside the box. | ||
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On July 13 2012 05:25 Hapahauli wrote: Jingle, I understand that you've stopped caring for this game a while ago, but don't ruin it for the rest of us. If you'll notice, my vote wasn't the only one on Bass. Anyway, I think if you're going to suggest that's what's happening, you should consider saying something to the people who actually ruined it? Like the people who basically decided to thump people over the head with their superiority complexes and tell them their play wasn't welcome here? Who then have the sheer, toxic, egocentric gall to suggest they suddenly have some sort of fucking right to tell me who to vote for? Kiss my ass. | ||
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There's a rather key social aspect to this game. If your method of play isn't conducive to people trusting you, respecting you, or having any reason whatsoever to work with you, the failure is yours as much as anyone else's. I know people like to just pick a scapegoat, since nobody likes to be wrong, but really, if you can't sell a lynch, you might as well not make a read. That's the real reason I haven't bothered with this thread much, because every time I say something, I get shouted down. Making reads would be a waste of my time, I've essentially been told as much, and I'm not going to trust or work with people who play that way, so they may not like where my vote lands. Welcome to the game, and enjoy the knowledge of how you failed yourselves. | ||
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On July 13 2012 06:00 Lazermonkey wrote: Lol, this is modkill material ; ) So you actually confess that the only reason you vote for Bass is to fuck with me? If deliberately misconstruing things was a sport, you'd be in the Olympics. Maybe you should consider that when the town is at 25% on those "definite" scumreads, you're going to have serious trouble convincing me to do what you want when you've spent the whole game beating me over the head with your alleged IQ? Pardon me while I laugh in your face. I'm not in any way doing something worthy of a modkill. I'm just playing the game the best way I see fit, and after all the alternating condescending attitudes and failures to make good reads by certain people, I feel no compulsion to take their word for who to vote on. | ||
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On July 13 2012 06:53 Lazermonkey wrote: I hope everyone agrees with this. Well, apparently 5 people (a majority) currently don't agree with you, so I'd have to hazard a guess that you hope in vain. Maybe if you want people to agree with you, you should provide them with some reason to do so beyond being slightly less abrasive while they're doing so. Don't make the mistake of assuming that just because I haven't been wasting much time with you, I must be some kind of pushover. I just have this strange thing about not wanting to waste copious amounts of my free time dealing with someone like you. | ||
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Just to kind of test the waters, who'd be interested in ignoring all the WIFOM arguments that theoretically "prove" Lazer's innocence and lynching him, should Bass fail to flip scum? Worst case scenario, we'd be able to scum-hunt in peace if he turned out to be a mislynch. | ||
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On July 13 2012 07:26 Lazermonkey wrote: Wow dude. Why do you even take this personal? And you haven't read my post clearly. I hope everyone agrees with this refered to that we do get more reliable lynches the longer the game goes. Do you not agree with this. Also, I did say a reason for this. You however, have failed to provide a solid reason for why Bass is a better lynch than Mackin. I take it personal because you made it personal. Don't cry about not getting to control the results when that happened. I don't agree that reads get inherently "better" later in the game, because, in this game, the best read came day 1. All the other decisive reads since then have been wrong, so clearly, taking the 50% chance sounds pretty damn good when compared to the 25% accuracy of reads. You're still doing the "beat people over the head with ego" thing, by the way. I suggest if you're going to learn how to not do that, you do it quickly, because I leave for TKD in 20 minutes, and at that point, I'm locked in. And you're better at repeating yourself than reading, because I've already explained why my vote is where it is several times. Just because you don't like the rationale doesn't make it less reasonable. As evidenced by the fact that quite a few votes are pointed that way. | ||
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On July 13 2012 09:43 YourHarry wrote: Well he left one final message after he died And if he breadcrumbed in his GG post, it would be a flagrant rule violation. | ||
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On July 13 2012 10:10 Lazermonkey wrote: Yup, although you were wrong about me, so I guess we are 1-1 then? : ) There's a minor difference. Go through your filter, and go through mine. I tried to be reasonable about it, admitted my errors, and told people straight up I was working from my gut. You, on the other hand, were too busy trying to prove how much better you were than everyone else to think, and it earned you all kinds of mockery for being WRONG. | ||
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On July 13 2012 10:12 Hapahauli wrote: BHAHAHA oh man, lost it when I read that (no offense Jingle =P) Meh, you should see my steam avatar. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/owB9b.jpg) | ||
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On July 13 2012 10:13 marvellosity wrote: JingleHell, if you can't be nice, stop posting Should I point you to the dozen times you should have said that to him if you wanted me to take you seriously? | ||
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On July 13 2012 10:18 Evulrabbitz wrote: I do feel Lazer has been over-zealous in his arguments, I agree with you on that Jingle. However I think that you handled it wrong. It was a mistake from both parts. You wouldn't say that if you'd ever seen me cut loose. | ||
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On July 13 2012 10:27 Hopeless1der wrote: and Evul: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351398 that game is currently open for signups. Make sure to read through the OP again. You too Jingle for that matter I do read the OP's. Hence knowing during D1 that we were on Plurality, not Majority. | ||
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