EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XX - Page 4
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On July 08 2012 02:49 JieXian wrote: In that quote he's obviously attacking lazer and another person (most probably you) what's so special about it >_> Oh wow I completely misread his tone. GG sir, thanks for pointing that out. God that's my bad. However, I still believe that statement to be scummy for other reasons. He says that in scarcasm, then promptly goes and starts throwing suspicions about two prolific posters - lazer and me. In addition, the rest of my case still stands. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On July 08 2012 02:52 JingleHell wrote: After I calm myself? I'm perfectly calm, as evidenced by the fact that I'm not following your lead across the line from playing the game to being an asshole. I just don't feel the need to turn a game, which should be fun and relaxing, into some abnoxious dick waving contest, and frankly, it wouldn't be good for the town, either. Ookay then don't defend yourself. Case closed. ##Lynch JingleHell Btw, mafia is fun, but it certainly ain't relaxing =D | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Thanks for your defense. I just have two questions for now: 1)1 Explain your justification for lynching LazerMonkey. I didn't notice any evidence or analysis behind your stance, which is suspicious for someone who lead an anti-bandwaggoning charge early in the game. 2) Explain your lack of suspicion for Hopeless1der and the lack of reasoning behind it. You've mentioned that it was a "misread," but I'd like to hear some reasoning. The only reasoning I've seen you use was a false meta read based on Hopeless's "prolific posting" early in the game. Thanks for your time. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On July 08 2012 03:07 JieXian wrote: ok he did attack you a bit but it's different from the attack towards Lazer. It was mostly an attempt to convince you. Naturally we'd look like shit that hopeless flipped scum but I think you understood his moves wrongly. The problem is that it wasn't an attempt to convince me - it reads as an attempt to spam the thread and provoke me. I'd understand if he tried to break down exactly why he thought Lazer was a better lynch, but he didn't. He relied on vague meta-reads, and when I confronted him about it, he accused me of being Lazer's scumbuddy. I can break down my view on page 17 if you'd like - I think the mafia motive is pretty clear after a readthrough. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On July 08 2012 03:18 JingleHell wrote: Again, my misread on Hopeless was due to meta analysis from a currently non-concluded game. Hence why I said multiple times I wasn't going to try and force that opinion. What reason do you have not to post your meta on Hopeless - even from a non-concluded game? In addition, how could you have a strong-enough meta read on Hopeless (in an unfinished game) to dismiss my entire case suggesting otherwise? Lastly, the meta-read you were relying on (re: Hopeless's early game "prolific posting") was proven incorrect. Can you post your meta read on Hopeless? Lazer was attacking me based on the sex toy thing, and was trying to argue that an early bandwagon was no danger, in a plurality lynch game. If an early bandwagon based on literally nothing kicks off, and lurkers vote and vanish, you can literally have someone die 40 hours later if nothing conclusive comes up and grabs a lot of votes. Since that seemed reasonably scummy to me, since I had my horrendous misread on Hopeless, Lazer seemed scummiest at the time. Then, following on that, you came in defending lazer by attacking hopeless (regardless of being correct about hopeless), you were making a more functional defense for Lazer than Lazer himself was. That made it seem to me that you were trying to force a lynch on hopeless to save Lazer. I don't understand your view on Lazer's bandwaggoning stance. He made it pretty clear in several posts that he supported such a stance closer to lynch deadline - it was only an early-game objection. Secondly, why did you make no attempt to analyze why Lazer was a better case than Hopeless? Your quote saying "analyzing your case would clutter the thread and be pro-mafia" makes you look really bad - especially in light of the entirety of page 17 being a swinging-dick fest between the two of us. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
The problem with that page 2 filter post (re: meta on Hopeless) is that it is unclear and false. My commentary is bolded below: On July 05 2012 08:29 JingleHell wrote: And I made a very strong read against him and another player in XIX, the reads being linked, and was promptly shot N1, after which, when I wasn't pushing at them, they ignored the attacks completely, pointed to WIFOM, and started trying to direct the town. Mislynch #2 ensued. (Can you explain this? Can you post the contents you based your D1 read on?) Hopeless's play is different enough from D1 there, where I won't be convinced he's town unless he flips, that I'm convinced he's town here. In particular he doesn't seem scared of prolific posting in the early game. (again, this is wrong, and I put a lot of effort into proving this in my meta analysis, which you claimed to have read) And I prefer substantial pressure. If there's nothing to refute, there's no argument to give off an odor. And the odds of hitting a townie with random votes are way higher than the odds of hitting scum. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On July 08 2012 04:02 JingleHell wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=347856&user=159089¤tpage=3 Pages 3 and 4 of my filter, it's a LOT of content. I ended up the N1 NK. And your second bolded part, I was referring to this game, he seemed more willing to post a lot than he did in the early stages of XIX D1. Which is true. I saw the filter, but it would be impossible for me to put myself in your shoes and analyze it from your perspective. Can you post your meta reads? Doesn't have to be much, just want a bullet point list on why. Posting "a lot" is waaay different from "prolific posting." In addition, you posted your read when he had only made 6 posts (after the PM deadline. Furthermore, four of his first 6 posts were one-liners. This doesn't make sense. I also have a number of objections with your previous post. You summarize your suspicions against lazer (which still are weak IMO), but you don't address my questions regarding your methodology. In particular, how could you have a strong-enough meta read on Hopeless (in an unfinished game) to dismiss my entire case suggesting otherwise? Furthermore, I find our page 17 discussion extremely suspicious. In particular, the below quote makes you look very bad: On July 07 2012 05:38 JingleHell wrote: Well, I could either clutter up the thread by breaking down every individual point of yours that I don't find particularly compelling, which I'm sure scum would love, since chaos and distraction are their tactics... -SNIP- This looks like an excuse for not posting analysis to me. What is your justification for not attempting to prove that Lazer's case was better than Hopeless's? You didn't even attempt an analysis, or even a counteranalysis after I dissected TheZenMan's case against Lazer. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
While the posting tone between me and Jingle has considerably changed in the past few hours, that's nowhere near grounds to determine his innocence. So far, my case against him still stands, and he has yet to answer a lot of the incriminating details against him. I ask you to withhold judgement until I can extract the proper answers. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
@ YourHarry - If you are "convinced" by jingle, please post why. Its important to read deeply into his defense to determine innocence or guilt. Remember, several players were "convinced" by Hopeless1der's post to my accusations. Upon careful analysis however (my post HERE), Hopeless's defense post contained a lot of mafia motive and logic. While the posting tone between me and Jingle has considerably changed in the past few hours, that's nowhere near grounds to determine his innocence. So far, my case against him still stands, and he has yet to answer a lot of the incriminating details against him. I ask you to withhold judgement until we can extract the proper answers. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I don't intend on moving to another line of questioning. As it stands, your defense has been very similar to Hopeless1der's so far - you're deflecting conversation, avoiding difficult questions, and your main defense has comprised of summary of easy/irrelevant questions. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
First you dismiss your stance on hopeless as a misread. Note the lack of reasoning. Again, my misread on Hopeless was due to meta analysis from a currently non-concluded game. Hence why I said multiple times I wasn't going to try and force that opinion. I then press you for your read, and you link to one of your early game posts: On July 08 2012 03:37 JingleHell wrote: That's on page 2 of my filter here. The discussion came from the first Day/Night cycle in XIX, and was incredibly long, but that's the short version of it. Next I point out that your posts are misleading and false (HERE). You reply with a vague and false clarification, linking me to your entire pregame filter. On July 08 2012 04:02 JingleHell wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=347856&user=159089¤tpage=3 Pages 3 and 4 of my filter, it's a LOT of content. I ended up the N1 NK. And your second bolded part, I was referring to this game, he seemed more willing to post a lot than he did in the early stages of XIX D1. Which is true. After I post that the red part is false and that you change your tone on Hopeless considerably from your previous stance (posting alot =/= posting prolific), I ask you for a summary of your meta (which you simply linked to a filter and STILL haven't explained beyond "prolific posting"). You then flip out: On July 08 2012 05:28 JingleHell wrote: I'm actually sick of repeating myself already, why would I spend six hours dissecting 48 hours worth of posting? If you remain intent on screaming that I'm scum after I've explained myself as much as I have, I'm probably not going to convince you, because now you're looking at everything with a severe confirmation bias. Move on to another case, or cast your vote on me, I don't care which, but frankly, I see no value in continuing this line of discussion. You're refusing to answer difficult questions and constantly avoid providing a concise summary of your case defending hopeless. This is because you had no case and are dodging the issue. This is Mafia Behavior. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Since we're approaching the deadline and I've posted a lot of evidence against Jingle already, I'd like to point some differences between this game and his townie-meta in Newbie Mini Mafia XIX. (I'll be ignoring his Mafia Meta in XVIII, since he was a replacement player and therefore was under much different circumstances/pressure. I haven't done a thorough read-through of XVIII tbh) Earlier, I made the case that Jingle's cases and defenses were based on "feelings" and vauge suspicion (you can find that HERE). In the brief analysis below, I'm going to show that his current-meta is from townie-JingleHell in XIX in a mafia-oriented way. Townie Jingle is capable of analyzing and breaking down text (CASE HERE). Note that he breaks down posts looking for mafia logic and suspicion - he is very clear about his reads and does not rely on meta at all. In addition, the reads he suggests in this post in the current game are the polar opposite of his analysis meta as a townie. Pushing so aggressively for the lynch of Lazer was very different from that of Townie Jingle. A quick look at Townie JIngle's 3rd page filter will show you that Jingle is not afraid to explore other cases, throw his vote around, and change his vote to a better case. This is the polar opposite of Jingle in this game, who pushed relentlessly for the lynch of Lazer despite a good case on Hopeless. As mentioned in my previous analysis, he doesn't even consider an analysis of Hopeless, and pushes for Lazer. Once again, JingleHell's actions fit the description of a Mafia member who tried to push the lynch of Lazer over his scumbuddy. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
We would be able to gain a lot of information from their reads. We would clear two people from suspicion and we would clear anyone they tracked as green from suspicion. We could eliminate 4 people from suspicion today (5 if we include the medic), and an additional 1-2 more people tomorrow. Furthermore, we will guarenteed not mislynch a blue. This game would basically be won, as we'll have 6-7 people cleared from suspicion by the start of day 3. I propose the DT and Tracker roleclaim now and post the results of their night investigations. The Medic (I thought it was TMG T_T) can roleclaim after DT and Tracker confirm their reads. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On July 08 2012 10:58 YourHarry wrote: This is what I propose: Phase 1. From now to July 8, 20:00. 1. Vanilla townies + Medic: do post, but do not claim. Detective + Tracker: claim if you received the positive result. Otherwise, do not claim. Phase 2. Until Day 2 deadline. 1. Vanilla townies + Medic: do post, but do not claim Detective: claim and report. 2. Tracker: claim if you targeted a different player than whom detective targeted. . Vanilla townies + Medic: claim vanilla townies Our own deadline system: Decide who we are going to lynch by 10 hours before actual deadline, July 9, 23:00 The person about to get lynched should claim. Phase 1/Phase 2 seems kinda pointless. If we're going to set up a role-claim, we may as well do it right at the start of the day. I suggest DT and Tracker roleclaim now and post their night1 results. We want to make sure we dont mislynch a blue and kill him before he gets his reads across. Medic DOES NOT roleclaim unless we say otherwise - he can flip a coin between saving the DT/Tracker and give the mafia a 50/50 shot of a blue lynch should mafia try to go after a declared blue. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
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