SSB-64 Mafia

On July 03 2012 04:02 iGrok wrote:
Item locations may change depending on how the rest of the day goes. If I get some reads I'll switch you in.

On July 03 2012 04:05 HomerunBat wrote:


I would say that stock for mafia is more valuable as they have less in total compared to town.

On July 03 2012 04:15 kingdedede wrote:

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. It's all about the vig shots. While scum kp is also 1, the chance of scum shooting someone who just got lynched is pretty small: why would they bother shooting someone who got lynched (aka: looks scummy)? However, it allows us to vig shoot someone who was lynched and not waste 2 lynches on it. Bringing down everybody's stock sounds like a good idea.

On July 03 2012 04:30 iGrok wrote:
Risen i don't care who you vote for as long as you stand in the right place.

On July 03 2012 05:21 Mister Saturn wrote:


Because it's super smash brothers. 3 stock is standard.

- Hiro

On July 03 2012 05:22 iGrok wrote:

As the guy who made the game, I'll tell you why.

A) Starting stock was going to be an integer
B) 2 Stock leads to games that are too fast
C) 4 Stock leads to games that are too long

On July 03 2012 05:37 iGrok wrote:
CLICK FOR CANDY

And jesus its not a fucking "DO THIS TO WIN AS TOWN" plan, that doesn't exist. Its a "DO THIS TO MITIGATE SCUM ADVANTAGE BY CONFUSION" plan, because in SSB64, Town has a built-in balance advantage if they can avoid confusion and limit info scum has that town does not. And you seem to be doing your best to add to the confusion. So what conclusions should we draw from that?

On July 03 2012 05:47 Cephiro wrote:
I'll be sending my actions, which will be STAGE: Left, and ITEM: Top Middle, as requested by iGrok, in 10 minutes.

I like that Risen is being critical to what iGrok is pushing, but for what reasons?
Why is it better to spread ourselves than all be at the same spot? It all comes down to randomness, and if we do it "by list", then there is nothing to go by from. I'd say iGrok's decision of putting all players on the same stage event tells us much more than just going by list, which would tell us nothing.

So Risen, is there an absolute reason why you do not want to stand on left like most (if not everyone else) of us?

I'll give though that I do not entirely agree with iGrok's reasoning of reducing the action count, as it does possibly the same for scum also.

For now though, I do not see cons that outweigh the pros.

On July 03 2012 06:02 Mister Saturn wrote:
mm, I'm curious. What made you pick Risen over grush to sit out items, iGrok? And why have talismania sit out? He may have volunteered, but thinking about it, if you didn't have any leaning scum reads (which is what it looks like, since you picked a non-poster and a volunteer), wouldn't it have been better to simply put two people who weren't doing anything?

- Hiro

On July 03 2012 06:13 Cephiro wrote:


1) It gives us insight on iGrok's thoughts. (He made a very neutral/safe choice, punishing everyone or no-one, not grouping people yet, which he however IS doing in his item picks/sit-outs. He also gave a valid reasoning, it may not necessarily be the optimal choice, but I haven't seen anyone else give a better idea yet.)
2) The reactions of the players on iGrok's choices. (For example, you insist on not going left with everyone, which you haven't given a valid reason for. Or talismania willing to sit-out, even though there is no risk of a fight [Stock loss] if people follow the plan.)

So tell me, have a better idea? For now all I am seeing is that you are saying you are not going to follow the plan. (Which you say is because this gives us no information, which is false.) And in your latest posts you were thinking of dividing by the list. (Which doesn't give us any information at all.)

I can say it's not much, but it's better than nothing, and we need something to get the scumhunting started. If you're still going to go against the plan without either a) Giving a better idea or b) Giving proper reasoning, then you're certainly not looking good in my eyes.

On July 03 2012 06:17 Cephiro wrote:


How about you answer the questions properly and start playing the game instead of toying around? Or is it because you have no answer? For all I see you are just casting shit on iGrok's idea, but you are providing absolutely nothing useful yourself.

If you think I am scum for supporting his current stance more than yours, you're retarded. Start doing stuff that benefits the town instead of casting shit on the content others provide, when you provide nothing yourself.

On July 03 2012 06:44 kingdedede wrote:
Why do you think it's worse off for Town than Mafia, Risen? How would splitting up the players over the three spots help town? Either way, the chance of hitting town compared to scum is 'equal' in that the expected value doesn't change. The only thing that changes by changing spots is variance, and I haven't heard an argument that the higher variance leads to a better outcome for Town.

On July 03 2012 06:50 Cephiro wrote:
Because you're clearly smarter than me, would you care to explain more in-detail why do you consider that both factions losing percentually the same amount of stock out of their total, thus the ratio staying the same, is worse off for town?

If I understood right, you'd rather do a 3-2-3 split. Assuming there are 2 scum, best case scenario is if both scum end up in the middle and a tornado hits them both. Chances of this happening is (1/3)*(1/4)*(1/7) ~ 1,18%
Worst case scenario is that it hits three townies: (1/3)*(3/4)*(5/7)*(2/3) ~ 11,19%

The chance of worst case scenario happening for town is almost 10 times higher than scum, if my math is not wrong.

Can you explain me why your plan is better?

Especially as iGrok's plan only has a 33% chance of anyone taking damage, and if it happens, we all take damage in an equal ratio.

On July 03 2012 06:54 kingdedede wrote:

Statistically there is no difference, therefore I'm indifferent to the choice of either of these. The only thing you're doing is instead of having 100% hit 1 out of 3 times, you're having 33% hit 3 out of 3 times, with no knowledge gained over who scum is and who isn't. Therefore I consider the entire thing pretty pointless.
/Art

On July 03 2012 06:58 Cephiro wrote:


Assuming everyone stands left and gets hit by tornado (33% chance)

Town stock before Tornado = 6 x 3 = 18
Mafia stock before Tornado = 2 x 3 = 6
Town Stock : Mafia Stock Ratio = 18 : 6 -> 3 : 1

Town stock after Tornado = 6 x 2.5 = 15
Mafia stock after Tornado = 2 x 2.5 = 5
Town Stock : Mafia Stock Ratio = 15 : 5 -> 3 : 1

.... I still don't get what you are going at. What information do we get from "everyone stands where they want" then?

On July 03 2012 07:00 Cephiro wrote:


False. Expected damage average is 1.33 KP in every situation. And you have no way of controlling whom it goes to.

On July 03 2012 07:02 Mister Saturn wrote:
Spreading out everyone isn't hedging your bets.... You're just increasing the chance of having either a best-case scenario (only mafia get hit) and the worst-case (only town gets hit).

On July 03 2012 07:05 Mister Saturn wrote:
wait, what. why do i have 2 stock.

- Hiro

On July 03 2012 07:07 kingdedede wrote:
This makes no sense at all. How did iGrok lose stock, but Risen didn't if they were on a square together.

Also, what is there that causes 1 stock loss in item/stage events?

I don't understand shit. Unless Hiro is not lined up with the rest and got hit by a tornado AND ignored iGrok's plan and stacked on iGrok (and Risen didn't).

/confused Acro

On July 03 2012 07:25 kingdedede wrote:
Fuck it, iGrok has effectively made himself unlynchable: I don't think iGrok and mister saturn can be scum together based on what just happened, so unless we're okay with mister saturn losing another 1.5 stock in the lynch, it's not even worth discussing at this point :S

iGrok: I don't know what to think of this. Artanis and I will talk it over more, but I can't believe you just screwed up your own plan.

/Acro

On July 03 2012 07:44 iGrok wrote:
I can't tell my reasoning on saturn until tomorrow.

Top picks for lynch are ##Vote: Talisman

On July 03 2012 09:27 HomerunBat wrote:
Yea I kinda did provide reasoning. I pretty clearly read iGrok's derp as a townie mistake, and your reaction to it is telling. Are you still going to shoot iGrok?

Also, there are two scum. Grush may be scum, I don't have any idea. I don't think anybody does. I don't want him around in the SSB version of LYLO.

Depending on how talismania spends the rest of day 1, I might replace grush with him. I want to hear what Shiao has to say on him too.

On July 03 2012 09:39 Mister Saturn wrote:


You're not answering my question. The scummy part of iGrok's play isn't that he screwed up. Townies and scum both screw up. The scummy part is that he refuses to justify it and is pushing a case on someone else despite considering me guarunteed scum (look at the way he mentions me).

If I'm still alive night 2, iGrok is eating a bullet.

On July 03 2012 10:09 HomerunBat wrote:
Hiro/saturn- You're right, I assumed your question was in regards to my post. I see now you were asking me about iGrok.

I agree with you that the way he is hopping around doesn't look good. He picked you to carry earlier on in the day, claimed you were scum. Some time elapsed, then he was wanting to kill talismania and grush. Since he provides no reasoning, it's impossible to know why his mind changed, but it could be as simple as that. He got his first scum read on you, chose to carry. Somewhere in the interim he decided you weren't scum, and switched horses. He can't uncarry you until night 1.

His derp looks town to me. I'm not shy in saying it. That's why at this point I'm assuming he just changed his mind on you, and in his hubris didn't think he had to explain. He promises that he will next day, and when he does I'll adjust accordingly.

On July 03 2012 11:26 Mister Saturn wrote:


Is this guy always this useless?

- Hiro

On July 04 2012 05:33 talismania wrote:


Where's strongandbig been at?

I dunno I still think you're scum, got pissed about going down to 2 kp so soon, and kinda panicked and pushed igrok and since then you've been willing to push anyone and everyone. You fished the vote from acro out on me so that you could hop on. I think that had everything gone to plan with the item you would be on Risen right now.

On July 04 2012 05:49 talismania wrote:
I have you down as town. you may be reading it backwards.

On July 04 2012 05:49 Cephiro wrote:
Back.

I'm not exactly fond of Homerunbat's play, as he seems to be trying to avoid pissing anyone off. Or that's how it looks like to me. Of course one can just be very polite by nature, but the way he words what he says doesn't sound very natural to me.
He keeps up a discussion with Saturn, where he originally has Saturn as one of his scumreads.
Afterward he agrees on lynching talismania fairly easily, but based on what? The larger post of him earlier doesn't cover enough reasoning to do that imo. His other choice I can't criticize because I admit that I wouldn't mind seeing our useless lurker lose some stock if that's the only way to get him talking.
Rank: 6

Risen needs to die, seriously. He was bashing on iGrok's plan without proper reasoning (he accused iGrok's plan of being bad due to losing town stock, and about lack of information, but his own plan was worse in BOTH areas.)
And what are his scumreads? The people who agreed with iGrok or defended him. Brilliant play if I say so myself. The way he jumps at Homerunbat after he defends iGrok's play makes me cry. He also clearly buddies with Saturn and tries to control his actions (and even succeeds to get Saturn to vote for the bat.)
Rank: 8
##Vote: Risen

Grush is useless. Literally. He comes in, keeps changing his votes constantly and doesn't contribute at all. I just can't see a townie do this, and if he somehow is town, he needs to be waken up. A prime target for night actions that cause stock loss, or a lynch if you won't lynch Risen today.
Rank: 7

talismania, you need to stop trying to crunch the setup and base your play on your meta-game against the host, you need to start playing the game the way it's supposed to be played and deciding your reads based on the actions of others. If you're not going to step up your play asap, I will push you for lynch.
Rank: 4

My thoughts on dedede+Saturn to follow. I don't believe that I need to add more about my opinion on iGrok (Rank: 2), he's my strongest townread but he has to stop the retarded derping around. So please, concentrate and prove me I'm not wrong about you.

On July 04 2012 06:07 Cephiro wrote:
Posting this while writing up as I'm still re-reading Saturns & dedede's filters:

##Vote: Risen

Now if they miss it I'll be damned. ~50 minutes till lynch right?

On July 04 2012 06:22 talismania wrote:
Cephiro you ought to change yours as well since I don't see the risen train coming into station either.

On July 04 2012 06:33 HiroPro wrote:
lmfao. but no, BM behaves way different. if you told me grush was kenpachi's smurf i might believe that.

On July 04 2012 06:37 HiroPro wrote:


You mean LIII, right? Even in that game BM said something lol.

On July 04 2012 06:39 Cephiro wrote:
Mister Saturn: I was okay with his earlygame play, but since then he's gone all wishy-washy and saying he doesn't trust himself at all. He could be honest about it, or he could be scum looking for an easy way to vote for anyone. I don't care if you're unsure about yourself, I want you to do decisions based on your own opinion, not sheep others. Even the best players are wrong sometimes, and I don't want us to lose if you'll happen to sheep a townie that was wrong, or even worse, a scum dragging you by the ropes. The way you talk about "no-one cares about my opinion so I won't push for it anymore, but I have a gun and I'm not afraid to use it", isn't giving you any points in my book either. I want to hear YOUR opinions. Even if you aren't sure who is scum (which few are at this stage of the game), your opinions can still be valuable for others. So pick it up. And think before you act!
Rank: 5

Kingdedede: The roleclaim at start seems quite honest to me, with the valid reasoning he gave. I am very interested in seeing how he is going to use it, given that he needs to keep his action secret from scum and only reveal his reasoning in the morning. I'm expecting his N1 action to tell a lot. What I don't like is that he is pushing for a mass claim. Certain roles claiming may be useful yes, but everyone claiming is better for scum than town imo. I like his provided reasoning for why he thinks iGrok is town, and I pretty much agree with it. I also like that he pointed out a minor contradiction in iGrok's play. (iGrok was against a mass claim, but wanted to lynch for role info earlier.) I'm slightly confused why he is pushing for talis lynch so hard without more/better reasoning though. Currently leaning slightly town, but I'm expecting to hear more from him soon, and very much looking forward to what he decides to do N1.
Rank: 3

On July 04 2012 06:41 Cephiro wrote:
EBWOP: Stop taking the game offtopic about random smurf/meta discussion ._. We got a lynch happening in 20 minutes.

So if I understood right, the one with the most votes gets lynched, or do we need the majority (5 votes) for the lynch still?

I will not be voting for anyone but Risen or grush57 today.

On July 04 2012 06:54 Cephiro wrote:


Please elaborate, dear. Scum because I am making sure on how the lynch works, or scum because I won't vote for anyone but you or grush (my strongest scumread and the most useless player in the game)?

On July 04 2012 06:57 grush57 wrote:
HOW AWFUL.

On July 04 2012 07:04 Cephiro wrote:


Not only are you vote-switching like a true scum but you're toying with my emotions too.
I'll make love to you once you hang! :p

On July 04 2012 07:38 iGrok wrote:
Ok, got the game mostly figured out. One more relationship I need to prod. Looking forward to the night actions.

On July 04 2012 07:45 HiroPro wrote:
It's hilarious how people actually think iGrok is doing something.

On July 04 2012 07:50 talismania wrote:
spreadsheet updated with roles.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgoLbFr8c0_7dERRMUVqYjQtb200SVVVd0lsaEpYV0E

On July 04 2012 10:01 Mister Saturn wrote:
EBWOP:

You don't think HomerunBat is scum anymore, Risen?

On July 05 2012 07:18 kingdedede wrote:
Hold your horses. That was hilarious. Bus driving is fun. Drove from Cephiro to Risen.

shipborne cruise is an anagram for bus cephiro risen.

We bused between someone we thought was town (cephiro) and someone we had as null and probably not going to be targeted by any nastiness (risen). Full explanation will follow.

On July 05 2012 20:03 Cephiro wrote:
Remember you have to send in your actions via PM (Item zone & Stage event), I suppose.

I'm not really liking this train on iGrok as it will kill him and reflects 1 stock of damage on someone else as well whom we have no idea of. Truth is though that he has promised to share his thoughts and analysis several times and he just keeps delaying it..

I'm going to wait with my push a bit closer to the deadline. But grush should be today's lynch.

On July 05 2012 20:07 Cephiro wrote:


I'm still having a hard time seeing why Risen is a townie based on his actions so far, and carrying my previously strongest townread doesn't exactly help that either. I'll have to read his filter again, but I just can't get over the fact that he was bashing a plan for attributes that his own plan was even worse at, and on top of that he's been changing his target rapidly. I just don't see it as something a townie would do. If he really is town, then he's playing really poorly in my opinion. (No offense.)

So to answer your question, no, not yet.

On July 05 2012 20:13 HomerunBat wrote:
Risen, there is 5 people in your list above, yet you say 4 at the end. Do you include Cephiro in that list?

On July 05 2012 20:14 HomerunBat wrote:
You must have missed the part where you and Cephiro were switched and you ate the scum KP. That means it was aimed at Cephiro.

On July 05 2012 20:23 Cephiro wrote:


Learn to read. Previously. I'd still kill you before iGrok happily.



So because I changed my vote from you to grush (From the person I wanted killed the most, to the person I wanted killed the 2nd most), you think my vote was scummy? I seriously don't understand what the hell you are doing in this game, your logic is repeatingly blame others for the same flaws you do in a worse manner yourself. So your vote swap meant nothing, but my obvious late vote did? (Yeah, I said I would change to grush if you wouldn't get lynched, so how was it a scummy vote?)

So again you are blaming someone for random shit, and painting yourself as innocent when if we look at things by your own logic, you are the most scummy player in the game.

So yes, I think there is a scum outside of tali/grush/iGrok/Saturn.

On July 05 2012 20:32 Cephiro wrote:


I guess we agree on one thing then. :p

On July 05 2012 20:40 HomerunBat wrote:
The problem is that there is just about nothing in dedede's filter to support the theory that he is scum.

On July 05 2012 20:40 Mister Saturn wrote:
can't we just vig shoot igrok tonight? If you let me and hiro we will do it and then the bus driver can protect us

i'm probably gonna vote to push talismania.

And @risen: the problem is i think he could have done more damage to town if he hadn't revealed that he was the yoshi, that would be like a super double-think scum move. I guess its possible though.

On July 05 2012 20:45 Cephiro wrote:


.... Just wow. Is there anyone but yourself left that you haven't accused of being scum now? Talk about grasping at straws. Could you please point me one single pro-town thing you've done this game? All you do is create new controversies to cause more confusion. Next night feel free to pick me up, because if you're alive I'm shooting you.



This logic. I cannot fathom.

On July 05 2012 20:48 HomerunBat wrote:
Wait...you seriously think dedede and cephiro are the scum team?

On July 05 2012 20:57 HomerunBat wrote:
I don't want to close my mind to any possibility, but I think the simplest explanation in this case is true. You, Cephiro, and dedede are all 3 town.

Some people don't agree that you are town, but I really think you are. If you are scum, then good job screwing with my head.

Cephiro, I linked Risen's past games in an earlier post of mine. I'd like you to take a look. TL mafia LI and LIII.

On July 05 2012 21:40 HomerunBat wrote:
I really didn't like his behavior as the town reads became stronger. He ran out of room to hide. I posted a BS case on Tali and Saturn jumped all over it.

Risen, for your suggestion to be true, not only would dedede have to be lying, but so would grush, who is town in your scenario.

On July 05 2012 21:48 HomerunBat wrote:
Cancel that, I had assumed that your theory had dedede lying about the switch. You said clearly earlier that that wasn't the case.

I still think dedede is town though. It's the simplest explanation.

On July 05 2012 22:02 iGrok wrote:
you like your case more than mine because in yours you don't die and get to shoot people.

On July 05 2012 22:05 iGrok wrote:

Lol. You know what would take less effort asking this? Just PMing ##push. So why are you saying this in public?

On July 05 2012 22:10 HomerunBat wrote:
Risen, if you really think dedede is scum, then make the case using his filter. Your scenario is possible, yes, but it doesn't stand on it's own merits just because it is possible. If dedede is scum then his filter will have scummy stuff in it. I looked, and I don't see it. If you want to convince people, show us how he is scummy.

On July 05 2012 22:17 iGrok wrote:
Lol, you're attacking my credibility as a host? What?

Anyways, your "case" is that Cephiro and dedede are scum together? Is that right?


Ok, for the moment I'll suspend my read on you.
I just... literally everyone is scummier than those two. Literally. Even me. I don't understand why you think they are scum, other than that its a convenient reasoning for the night actions. But this means that they would have had to plan it since the early part of Day1 when dedede claimed (10 hours into D1). So their goal was to make Ceph look like a townie. But lets look at their other actions.

Cephiro fully supports the Kingmaker plan. dedede also fully supports it.
But most importantly, dedede pushes a lynch off of tali. if the scum team is Ceph&dedede, he wouldn't do that.

On July 05 2012 22:23 iGrok wrote:
Push Risen. Kill us both. Then lynch grush.

On July 05 2012 22:25 iGrok wrote:

Yes, we'll lynch grush.

But we're pushing you first.

On July 05 2012 22:29 iGrok wrote:

When did you switch your carry?

On July 05 2012 22:32 iGrok wrote:
How does pushing Saturn make me "invulnerable" lol.

You think Ceph and dedede are scum so you want to push saturn?

On July 05 2012 22:35 iGrok wrote:
I mean, was it at night or today

On July 05 2012 23:02 iGrok wrote:
@HRB:
I'm more convinced Risen is scum than Saturn. Thats why.
But, you've given me an idea. Ceph, will you shoot saturn tonight?

On July 05 2012 23:18 iGrok wrote:
Please stop talking. Don't BM me for "not reading your case" when you have yet to read (or at least respond) to mine.

Almost everything you do is scummy. Your initial play wasn't, I marked you down as dumb town with a light green shade. But everything since then has made you scummier and scummier. Now you're trying to throw setup bullshit into my logic? I think I said this before, but don't try to use setup reasoning with the guy who invented the game, because you're going to lose that fight.

You're fighting for your life, and I get that as scum that is scary for you. But you're going to die and you'll just have to accept that. Because the game has been solved even with the contingency that Saturn is scum, I'm not really worried about anything you do here. But stop spewing you inane accusations and insults like you think its a case, and just roll over and die.

On July 06 2012 01:57 talismania wrote:
eh, ##push: Risen

I think he's done ok scrambling but I can't shake the fact that he tried to save grush at the last second. grush is clearly scum and he has simply played poorly. He shouldn't have shot the same person they were putting the night kill on to begin with, and he shouldn't have claimed the shot afterwards. Assuming there's at least some modicum of communication between the two scumbuddies, I can't imagine hiropro or strongandbig letting someone do that.

I'll go ahead and roleclaim since I don't see why not at this point.

I'm kirby, and I ate risen last night. He is indeed a donkey kong (kirby's eating is unaffected by the bus according to toad after I asked).

I think this leaves only homerunbat as an unknown role not that it really matters at this point anyway.

On July 06 2012 02:14 talismania wrote:
no I think it's you + grush.

On July 06 2012 02:17 Mister Saturn wrote:
I don't think it's a ceph/dedede scum team, Risen. I'm fairly certain dedede is town and so Cephiro pretty much has to be too.

I think grush just happened to shoot the same person as scum. I just don't see why scum grush would claim.

On July 06 2012 02:19 talismania wrote:
no I think it's grush and he's played bad. grush had no town reason for shooting cephiro. He never even mentioned him day one. If he were town he should have shot me or iGrok.

On July 06 2012 03:51 iGrok wrote:
I need to know if you're going to shoot Saturn tonight. If so, we push him. If not, we kill Riven and I sacrifice myself in a blaze of glory

On July 06 2012 04:07 iGrok wrote:
I don't believe for a second that Risen pushed himself.

So HRB/Tali can you please push Risen so we can be sure

On July 06 2012 05:02 iGrok wrote:
Saturn, will you be voting for grush tonight?

Assume for the moment that I flip town and Risen flips something.

On July 06 2012 05:31 iGrok wrote:
Tali starts out with similar reads to my own, including ones I hadn't made public. So, he starts off on the right foot. Volunteering to sit out is weird, but its something that a townie who is trying to do as little damage as possible would do. Then he creates a spreadsheet to track everyone's accusations. This is an easy thing for scum to do for credit, but it also hurts scum because they can't ever contradict themselves. Since I'm already leaning town, its a pro-town move. And finally, he nails it on the head that grush shot cephiro instead of one of the people he (grush) said was scum. All these things combined say he's town. He's not taking a leadership role this game, but thats fine - too many leaders can fuck towns over.

On July 08 2012 08:26 marvellosity wrote:
So Risen nailed the scumteam and you all ignored him?

On July 08 2012 08:31 HiroPro wrote:


This is not calling the scum team lol. This is listing practically every player in the game.

On July 08 2012 09:29 Toadesstern wrote:
Oh and btw, it's really sad it was over so soon but with all those DK's and that shitton of damage early on it really was over so quickly. It's a multilive game and it was over after the 2nd life due to the incredible damage potential because everyone went for DMG-stuff :p

Not a single ness in the set-up.
2 DK's who boost the dmg A LOT and talis (Kirby) pm's me
"sup Toad, I don't want to ##eat Igrok because he's DK and I don't want the a DK ability, therefore I'm eating Risen instead" which made me laugh so badly because Risen was the 2nd DK, so even more damage output. And I pm'ed him back
"good job dodging that Igrok DK bro, you ate Risen this night and ended up getting a DK ability"

On July 08 2012 12:06 s0Lstice wrote:
oh that's easy + Show Spoiler +

On July 08 2012 12:11 s0Lstice wrote:
The people who needed to know grush was town already did. There was no need to kill him. He had a vig shot left to boot.

Tali's flip was the one we needed to see. The problem is his flip meant gg.

On July 08 2012 12:43 s0Lstice wrote:
I just typed a bunch about how you are completely wrong, but that's not true. You are right in a way.

I can say that from my standpoint, actually seeing grush flip would not have stopped me from pushing for a Talis kill.

Cephiro could not have pushed grush late after he was dead obviously, so there is a strong chance he would have chosen to go after Talis instead. Since I read Ceph and Talis as scum, I probably would have thought it was a last-ditch bus.

Mr. S, I can't say for sure, but I think he still would have been on-board with Talis as well after a grush flip. They read Talis as scum all game.

The only person who would know who the scum team was via grush flip was Talis. I suppose there is a chance he could have convinced me, but I really doubt it. My mind was just so closed to dedede being scum, and I wasted the opportunity to engage him during N2.

All-in-all, I don't think it would have changed the outcome much. Still though, we may have had a slightly higher chance at winning with a dead grush.