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Mister Saturn
Profile Joined June 2012
Vatican City State155 Posts
July 03 2012 00:39 GMT
#301
On July 03 2012 09:27 HomerunBat wrote:
Yea I kinda did provide reasoning. I pretty clearly read iGrok's derp as a townie mistake, and your reaction to it is telling. Are you still going to shoot iGrok?

Also, there are two scum. Grush may be scum, I don't have any idea. I don't think anybody does. I don't want him around in the SSB version of LYLO.

Depending on how talismania spends the rest of day 1, I might replace grush with him. I want to hear what Shiao has to say on him too.



You're not answering my question. The scummy part of iGrok's play isn't that he screwed up. Townies and scum both screw up. The scummy part is that he refuses to justify it and is pushing a case on someone else despite considering me guarunteed scum (look at the way he mentions me).

If I'm still alive night 2, iGrok is eating a bullet.
mmaaawww
Risen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States7927 Posts
July 03 2012 00:40 GMT
#302
On July 03 2012 09:39 Mister Saturn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 09:27 HomerunBat wrote:
Yea I kinda did provide reasoning. I pretty clearly read iGrok's derp as a townie mistake, and your reaction to it is telling. Are you still going to shoot iGrok?

Also, there are two scum. Grush may be scum, I don't have any idea. I don't think anybody does. I don't want him around in the SSB version of LYLO.

Depending on how talismania spends the rest of day 1, I might replace grush with him. I want to hear what Shiao has to say on him too.



You're not answering my question. The scummy part of iGrok's play isn't that he screwed up. Townies and scum both screw up. The scummy part is that he refuses to justify it and is pushing a case on someone else despite considering me guarunteed scum (look at the way he mentions me).

If I'm still alive night 2, iGrok is eating a bullet.


I'm totally fine with this.
Pufftrees Everyday>its like a rifter that just used X-Factor/Liquid'Nony: I hope no one lip read XD/Holyflare>it's like policy lynching but better/Resident Los Angeles bachelor
Risen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States7927 Posts
July 03 2012 00:40 GMT
#303
EBWOP: Saturn move your vote to homerunbat, shoot the donkey.
Pufftrees Everyday>its like a rifter that just used X-Factor/Liquid'Nony: I hope no one lip read XD/Holyflare>it's like policy lynching but better/Resident Los Angeles bachelor
Mister Saturn
Profile Joined June 2012
Vatican City State155 Posts
July 03 2012 00:44 GMT
#304
On July 03 2012 09:40 Risen wrote:
EBWOP: Saturn move your vote to homerunbat, shoot the donkey.


That works. But either a captain falcon needs to shoot iGrok tonight or we need to lynch iGrok day 2; otherwise he won't die.

##Unvote
##Vote: HomerunBat
mmaaawww
GreYMisT
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States6736 Posts
July 03 2012 00:48 GMT
#305
V-V-V-V-V-V-VOTE COUNT

1 FOR TALISMAN (iGROK)

2 FOR HOMERUNBAT (RISEN, MISTER SATURN)
"life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery" / Join TL Mafia! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
HomerunBat
Profile Joined June 2012
Oman114 Posts
July 03 2012 01:09 GMT
#306
Hiro/saturn- You're right, I assumed your question was in regards to my post. I see now you were asking me about iGrok.

I agree with you that the way he is hopping around doesn't look good. He picked you to carry earlier on in the day, claimed you were scum. Some time elapsed, then he was wanting to kill talismania and grush. Since he provides no reasoning, it's impossible to know why his mind changed, but it could be as simple as that. He got his first scum read on you, chose to carry. Somewhere in the interim he decided you weren't scum, and switched horses. He can't uncarry you until night 1.

His derp looks town to me. I'm not shy in saying it. That's why at this point I'm assuming he just changed his mind on you, and in his hubris didn't think he had to explain. He promises that he will next day, and when he does I'll adjust accordingly.
*PING*
Risen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States7927 Posts
July 03 2012 01:27 GMT
#307
On July 03 2012 10:09 HomerunBat wrote:
Hiro/saturn- You're right, I assumed your question was in regards to my post. I see now you were asking me about iGrok.

I agree with you that the way he is hopping around doesn't look good. He picked you to carry earlier on in the day, claimed you were scum. Some time elapsed, then he was wanting to kill talismania and grush. Since he provides no reasoning, it's impossible to know why his mind changed, but it could be as simple as that. He got his first scum read on you, chose to carry. Somewhere in the interim he decided you weren't scum, and switched horses. He can't uncarry you until night 1.

His derp looks town to me. I'm not shy in saying it. That's why at this point I'm assuming he just changed his mind on you, and in his hubris didn't think he had to explain. He promises that he will next day, and when he does I'll adjust accordingly.


He hasn't changed his mind. He's still saying he thinks saturn is scum, he's just not voting for saturn and he's not telling us his reasoning for carrying saturn. He's holding a stick of cheese in front of our faces to try and make it so we don't kill him tonight.
Pufftrees Everyday>its like a rifter that just used X-Factor/Liquid'Nony: I hope no one lip read XD/Holyflare>it's like policy lynching but better/Resident Los Angeles bachelor
HomerunBat
Profile Joined June 2012
Oman114 Posts
July 03 2012 01:52 GMT
#308
On July 03 2012 07:15 iGrok wrote:
shoot me if you want, it was a derp I think top left as the first zone and so I put myself there.

You should probably be able to guess why i picked you, you're scum. On the bright side of this derp, scum's at 2 stock lol.


Posted at 07:15. Like I said, some time elapses, before he switches to talismania.

On July 03 2012 07:44 iGrok wrote:
I can't tell my reasoning on saturn until tomorrow.

Top picks for lynch are ##Vote: Talisman


Just under a half hour. It doesn't take a lot of time to change a mind. He speaks about Saturn in the interim, but everything he says easily fits to the idea that he has changed his mind. He wants to explain why he carried him when he did. He said before that he had a feeling, which can reference when he chose to carry Saturn as well. Since he voted talismania he hasn't said saturn is scum as far as I can see.

The explanation is going to be important. I think it's possible he changed his mind on the fly, but I can also see how frenetic it looks, like chaffing under the pressure.

But back to the derp.. I've made wrong reads before, and I may be wrong here, but I maintain that it looks strongly town.

-s0L



*PING*
grush57
Profile Joined March 2011
Korea (South)2582 Posts
July 03 2012 02:06 GMT
#309
##Vote: HomerunBat
GEEET HIM
"Every thing is either simply awful or awfully simple." | "Weaklings can't pick... their way of death."
HomerunBat
Profile Joined June 2012
Oman114 Posts
July 03 2012 02:24 GMT
#310
that's some good work there grush.

Anyway, I'm off for the night. I'm dead now in LVI so I'll have a lot more time for this game.

-s0L
*PING*
Mister Saturn
Profile Joined June 2012
Vatican City State155 Posts
July 03 2012 02:26 GMT
#311
On July 03 2012 11:06 grush57 wrote:
##Vote: HomerunBat
GEEET HIM


Is this guy always this useless?

- Hiro
mmaaawww
Risen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States7927 Posts
July 03 2012 02:35 GMT
#312
On July 03 2012 11:26 Mister Saturn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2012 11:06 grush57 wrote:
##Vote: HomerunBat
GEEET HIM


Is this guy always this useless?

- Hiro


That post made me laugh harder than it should have. Confirmed towny in my eyes.
Pufftrees Everyday>its like a rifter that just used X-Factor/Liquid'Nony: I hope no one lip read XD/Holyflare>it's like policy lynching but better/Resident Los Angeles bachelor
Mister Saturn
Profile Joined June 2012
Vatican City State155 Posts
July 03 2012 02:37 GMT
#313
It gave me the impression that he was just voting for the guy in the lead...

- Hiro
mmaaawww
Mister Saturn
Profile Joined June 2012
Vatican City State155 Posts
July 03 2012 06:46 GMT
#314
If there's a Link, you really should drop the bomb by now.

- Hiro
mmaaawww
kingdedede
Profile Joined June 2012
Kazakhstan80 Posts
July 03 2012 10:05 GMT
#315
Catching up now. Artanis isn't online, so no vote from us yet, but after having had some time to think about the whole iGrok derp thing, I cannot come up with a scum reason to do that. Doesn't mean he's town, just that the derp is a completely null derp.

On July 03 2012 09:03 HomerunBat wrote:
iGrok- Shiao thought he had some weird ideas, but didn't think scum. This was from earlier, and I don't think it had changed. I don't think he is scum. Regarding his derp: it was either intentional or unintentional. Intentionally going against his own plan when it would be so bloody obvious that he did so is plain stupid from both a town or scum perspective. It must have been unintentional. I don't think he would make such an egregious mistake as scum. Think about it, he has since day 1 grabbed town by the balls and said 'this is what we should do, and here's how you know you can trust me.' It would be extremely bold, and require a LOT of work and attention to detail to keep up the facade. If he was actually going for that play style, you can bet your ass he'd have gotten his location PM right, because he'd be hyper aware of any miss-steps.

<snip>

-s0L



I'm not sure I agree with this. I think mistakes can be made by either team. Would scum doublecheck their PM? I for one would. However, in this game I'm town and also doublechecked that my PM was correct. Making a mistake makes iGrok human, not scum or town

I do have a bit of a townread on him from his subsequent behaviour. I think scum screwing up would be more panicky about it, whereas iGrok is really lacadaisical in his response to the derp. I don't see a scum being so incredibly cocky that he would be posting like this after such a monumental screwup in his plan:

On July 03 2012 07:44 iGrok wrote:
I can't tell my reasoning on saturn until tomorrow.

Top picks for lynch are ##Vote: Talisman

On July 03 2012 08:01 iGrok wrote:
The same reasoning the I do everything for.

2nd choice is grush, but we'll see what happens there.


So yeah, I get a whiff of town out of iGrok here and think he's a bad lynch. I think his advice, however, is terrible:
On July 03 2012 07:34 iGrok wrote:
Even if you think I'm scum, you shouldn't be lynching me tonight. You already know my role. Lynch me tomorrow when Saturn's going to shoot me, and find out someone's role today


This makes no sense: I will lynch scum over "lynching for information" every single time. There are reasons not to lynch you at the moment, but the information one is a load of crap.

I can't make sense of this lynching for rolenames. Why not just ask? A mass claim D1 is bad:
On July 02 2012 22:31 iGrok wrote:
Don't mass claim day 1 please....


But we should lynch people to find out their role? Maybe I'm missing a vital part of SSB-mafia that makes this all make sense, but can we just find scum, lynch them and win the game, rather than wasting lynches on uncovering people's roles?

Will be looking at Tali, HRB and Saturn next. Grush is playing into his usual meta: lurk until he gets lynched or shot. He's doing it in the other game too (and I blew him up in SSM for doing the same there as well). I like lynching Grush just so he is forced to post at least something if I don't have a decent scumread on somoene else.

Risen: other than iGrok who do you think is scum? Unlike other people here I think a giant filter discussing statistics is a null read, not a town read, so I want your scumhunting opinions. Do you think HRB is scum? You currently have your vote on him based mainly on him defending iGrok. That only works if iGrok is scum. Why not try to flip iGrok then?

/Acro
kingdedede
Profile Joined June 2012
Kazakhstan80 Posts
July 03 2012 10:06 GMT
#316
EBWOP: why not try to flip iGrok then? I also need convincing that iGrok is scum. Tell me why he's scum and not town from that ordeal.
kingdedede
Profile Joined June 2012
Kazakhstan80 Posts
July 03 2012 10:12 GMT
#317
On July 03 2012 15:46 Mister Saturn wrote:
If there's a Link, you really should drop the bomb by now.

- Hiro

Who do you want to throw it to?
HomerunBat
Profile Joined June 2012
Oman114 Posts
July 03 2012 10:32 GMT
#318
May I summarize the suspicion on us?
HE IS DEFENDING iGROK!!!!! LYNCH HIM!!!!

Seriously, if you think iGrok is scum why don't you try to flip him? solstice shared his read on iGrok as a townie who messed up, while I would consider him a nulltell from his reactions after the item/stage events concluded. I would be in favor of waiting and seeing the explanation he promised.
Now what of this read makes us scummy? If you think igrok is scum lynch him...

Regarding my choice of lynchtarget I would say grush deserves it. I know that he is always playing lurky until called out, so the earlier we pressure him, the earlier we can get some stuff to work on. Until now he has been terribly unhelpful.

##Vote: grush57

-Shiao
*PING*
kingdedede
Profile Joined June 2012
Kazakhstan80 Posts
July 03 2012 10:36 GMT
#319
Hmmm, I am getting a bad feeling about Tali. I have played in two games with him and got an instant town vibe from him in both of them (Bastard 2 and SSM). The mechanics discussion seems to be completely normal from him, so reading into that is not a good idea, but I'm wary that I'm missing the townie vibe from him.

In both games he sounded super excited in his first post in the game. Like in... bubbling over with excitement. Look at this:
+ Show Spoiler [Bubblymania] +

On June 17 2012 03:35 talismania wrote:
Fuck yes I'm town for once.

Ok everyone listen up. Here's what's happening:

Mass Encrypted Roleclaim

(1) Go to http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/javascrypt.html

(2) Type in your role and win condition (I recommend doing this separately)

(3) Post the encrypted message here, and store the key somewhere you won't lose it.

(4) Play the game out normally

(5) In the event that you are going to claim your role and win condition, do so by posting the key to your encrypted message

__________________________


What this accomplishes:

This forces scum to fake claim NOW. They cannot wait to see what kinds of roles are in the game. They cannot wait to see what kind of win conditions are in the game. They must come up with whatever lie they want to make on Night 0. This is way harder than coming up with a good situational lie later in the game.

It doesn't hurt town at all. Scum gets no information from it, because everyone participates.

Important points:

EVERYONE PARTICIPATES. No exceptions. It doesn't hurt you if you're town, it only makes scum squirm a little. Even if you are vanilla townie, write "I am vanilla tonwie blahblahblah"

EVERYONE DOES THIS NIGHT 0. No exceptions. The longer you wait the more information scum gets to figure out how best to fake their role.

NO ONE POSTS THEIR KEY UNLESS IT IS NECESSARY. This should be obvious. But unless you're on the chopping block to be lynched, don't post your key.

______________________


I'll start:

My role:
+ Show Spoiler +

##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/
ZZZZZ UNUAF LVWWX VTNWQ RSJRQ UFHSW SECDA VUMEN VLUEB OSEUB USPRE
FBTBC NSPMB JOQFQ FWCIP DKMNV VUTQO GNBTP COMCC ATUGP RFRRK HQPAH
WWXJL OSDUD ETCWT GLNBA OMRJM UHDKR DVTPV SJSJU XOHVN IRJRW HIFMR
EFXKG GDNQP QRFML MJSAC EJASQ SKGWF BKAOU JHHGH DVDCP FGLMW EMSUS
PGWVP FPQHP TJSME EDFHA BQWEX LXQKC SEQFL XPGNN PKWFE NMKAN DCSBL
LPAET WTGAW PIMHS LDATX XXTDE WABHD QKTFL QAICQ MWNFE LOWUD XOBKQ
SXXEU CUTLQ LTKTC QMOEN UOHRV XWGJG WCSNT XBTGC MWGVN DAKLI ASWIS
SURSG MBAIW MLAFC HOXEH IEVNU MDIKP MWUHX QLDAT PWALQ VTMXL PPDKE
NGTXG JMHCA BDUAT SUKXQ OHTRU PASDO VJSDX GLADE UTSTS GKFQE LWGUM
XCPNO MIMGK OJTGR IASQP OXMDT ODOWN JQXMQ IKSMC FVNBV HLLVW NFNPW
INDCM HRSMX AANDE SIKGO UQBRR URSIW WTBRJ GBGKB ABDFP UWKGE OHXKL
RFSFD CWBMD PMOMC UWLUD WNRDJ FPLLM NQJBU JASEO UJWVB VQWWC TVXGS
HGDJF NCMSA ILAPU WNZZZ YYYYY
##### End encrypted message

My win condition:
+ Show Spoiler +

##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/
ZZZZZ WXIAB HUWXM RSKDQ RDONU VCNWX AWIQJ QLNUJ CLSUA EXJNS DBHGN
ABXXC JRBIF PHFBC CBMCV GKTJU WVMAQ ONXAW GQDII GQJWB BJLSO WSBTB
MRVHH UXJWH SLMWV CHWMH LNKHU MHVHJ JUFCS MHPHX BKINW TOOLR PTBSJ
HEQNP BMLEQ CTTBG SJBEQ LWXLR ODXAN FMBRX IMQQD NUMQI FXKFB RHTTT
RUQUW ISARE UDUIJ GHKHR DRLDC SIXOW RDEXQ HDIVW HPVHQ FHFIG CKWBK
KEWDR VDUXL HFQIR MAWBC UBTFP URJFA RLFSN LFDOE WFMNG LOSSS UCGOQ
UGUVU CODHO NQMHE PHLQQ ECGLV PSZZZ YYYYY
##### End encrypted message





Note: I added some spam text in the middle of my mesage in order to get longer results. I suggest you all do the same.

On April 14 2012 01:41 talismania wrote:
Morning all!

First game playing in a long time :-)

My thoughts:

--Where I used to play (flashflashrevolution) PM and instant messaging was an integral part of the game. It quickly became policy there to have EVERYONE post ALL of their private conversations, with the exception of anything that would reveal town-damaging information. I propose we do the same here. If you talk to anyone, and nothing you talk about could endanger the town (ie, role claims, item claims, etc) then you should post every conversation you have. With high enough participation rate, this forces the scum to have to fake conversations with each other, which can lead to things sounding awkward and forced. Public sharing of these one-on-one conversations often becomes useful later in the game as well, as patterns emerge about who is talking to whom and who is NOT talking to whom.

--This probably goes without saying, but one of the most useful things to do is to ask people who they are talking to, and who they have talked to. Then ask for copies of those conversations, if they don't contain sensitive information. Every now and then you get a scumslip this way when one scum says they are chatting with the other but the other claims to have never spoken to the one. Not very often but sometimes useful.

--I have not been PMed yet by anyone. I don't know how sandroba is going around collecting info but I suppose it's not been player-wide. I suggest that he make it player-wide so that scum can't figure out who he's talked to, and therefore who he's gotten to claim already.

--Captain policy: I suggest that whoever gets captain be sure to give enough warning to whomever is going to be lynched. If the player is town (as Ace pointed out, town is often lynched day one) that player should be given the opportunity to offload any items he has and/or roleclaim via pm or something in order to save himself if he thinks that's wise/necessary.

--sandroba's actions are town to me. As acrofales (I think?) said, occam's razor would suggest that. He's sticking his neck out very far on day one, even going so far as to think up the anonymous roleclaim plan AND ask the host about it. I don't know his meta, but that kind of play seems unlikely to me to even occur to scum, plus it would be even dicier to try to pull it off (also have to consider how his scumteam would feel about him putting himself out there). If for some reason he's been doing this as scum, then I guess his plan is to play for a high-risk high-reward strat and have his scumteam bus him if it backfires. But again, less likely than town.

--my skype is jason.e.pipkin . Feel free to chat.

--question for the thread: how many scum do you think will end up running for captain? It depends of course on how many total people end up running, but I imagine any good scum team would only put out one, maybe two members, if any. How soon does everyone think a scum puts his hat in the running? Right off the bat? Do they wait awhile and see if the town is coalescing around someone first? I dunno what I would do as scum (would depend on meta I guess) but maybe the two strongest strategies are 1) putting up a scum candidate early or 2) not putting up a candidate at all (consider what GMarshal said - that if he had to pick a scum candidate day one he would probably pick one of the captain candidates). Thoughts?



Compare that to this game:
+ Show Spoiler [Subdued] +

On July 02 2012 12:31 talismania wrote:
hokay so mister saturn and cephiro are both samus then (or grush is lying).

hey toad was alignment generated randomly or not?

I got my first pick.



This feels more like Bang Bang 2 (which I didn't play in, but read) than the town Talismania I know and love. More tellingly than the first posts, the town Tali I know dives straight into scumhunting: pressuring people, giving reads, etc. I don't see that from Tali in this game either.

Yes, he talks about using the mechanics to find scum, and Tali does have a predisposition to loving clever mechanics (and breaking them). However, he doesn't actually do any scumhunting this game, except for one post.

I have to talk it over with Artanis, but I don't like Tali's play at all so far. Consider Acro's vote on Tali (so half of kingdedede's vote) for now.
kingdedede
Profile Joined June 2012
Kazakhstan80 Posts
July 03 2012 11:03 GMT
#320
Read up on HRB. I like s0lstice's long post. I ike ShiaoPi's recent post. I don't see much reason to lynch him. Risen has explained his vote, but I am unclear what a team with the quality of HiroPro+SnB is doing sheeping Risen instead of scumhunting for themselves. It is making no sense to me. That brings me to Mr. Saturn. I am largely null on him. I am going to disregard the whole mechanics thing, because I am not going to try and wifom my way into Toad's head. His posts so far have been acceptable, but I don't much like his cases. At least he's active, so I think I'll have a better read soon.

I'll read Cephiro's filter later. I had a townish feel about him earlier, but want to recheck. For now I like my case on Tali.

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