EPTthis is a C9++?
I have never been modkilled and don't intend on starting here.
The only thing I ever read from the OPs are whether there are PMs or not
Wheel of Fortune Mini Mafia
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Radfield
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this is a C9++? I have never been modkilled and don't intend on starting here. The only thing I ever read from the OPs are whether there are PMs or not | ||
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On April 21 2012 08:18 Bluelightz wrote: Predicting im going to live to lylo Predicting im going to lose town the game somehow You didn't lose the game for town in Palmar's game. Dirkzor played a solid game, and left himself in a position where he had contributed more than either of the other two players alive at lylo. My challenge for you this game is to have zero 1 liners. If you are going to post, make sure it actually serves a purpose. Do some analysis and make sure that your opinions have actual reasoning behind them, and show that reasoning. Otherwise I hope you are a mason -_- | ||
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On April 22 2012 11:08 Forumite wrote: Discussing a potential problem in the first posts of the game is not a waste of space, it´s there to get the discussion going. Calling out a few players is also nothing wrong with. FYI to me it looks like prplhz is playing exactly as he usually does as town. You on the other hand are grasping at straws, you make a weak case on prplhz to divert attention from yourself, and you are generally not acting town (why DID you vote yourself?). It´s very, very early in the game, and only about a third of the players have shown themselves so far, but your play so far scream scum. ##Vote MrZentor Much of this I agree with, though not the last sentence. Zentor does not scream scum to me, at least not yet, and following this course through likely only nets us a dead townie. As you say yourself, only 1/3 of the players have even posted, so no need to be hasty. In other news, hydras should definitely be signing their posts. Also, masons need to be smart with their claims. I don't think I've ever actually played as town in a game with masons, so I'm not sure what the best protocol is. Presumably you need to somehow breadcrumb who your partner is in case you die, yet not make it obvious enough to draw hits. Living to or near lylo with masons is a huge deal. Ace, do you fear the masons in this game(if they do exist that is)?  | ||
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On April 22 2012 11:29 MrZentor wrote: You say I wanted to divert attention from myself by making a case on prphlz, but the reasons that I voted for myself is to draw attention to myself. Why did you want to draw attention to yourself? | ||
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Where's Sandro? On April 22 2012 23:57 Ace wrote: Any comments on my post about Masons fast claiming Day 2? I don't actually see the benefit to the quick claim. However, I am assuming that the masons are good enough to leave a trail of clues which will point to their partner if they die, yet is impossible to find if they are alive. Since they can talk together, it really shouldn't be that hard. If that's the case, then there is no reason for them to claim, as once they claim they will become instant targets. The longer they stay alive, the higher towns chance of winning is. I guess I just don't see the actual benefit of them claiming. This assumes we have any masons at all. I'm not sure how bugs is generating the mason roles, as a normal C9++ has the option of an Innocent Child(mod confirmed townie), which is not in the OP. For those who don't really know how the setup is generated: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9++ | ||
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On April 23 2012 00:08 VisceraEyes wrote: Wanna walk me through how your plan works if there are no medics/cops present Ace? Keep in mind that there ARE no medics, only potential jailkeepers. A small distinction, but an important one. On April 23 2012 00:21 Bluelightz wrote: prp: trying to find scum game, so if anyone can point out one please do :3 Prplhz was scum in PYP Interesting. Mind you that was a somewhat strange game since there were 3 different scum teams. | ||
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I was serious when I said I was willing to vote VE, however prplhz needs to show up or he might get the vote as well. More to come. ##vote Visceraeyes | ||
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On April 23 2012 08:53 Sbrubbles wrote: That said, I suppose it might be a good strategy to claim if the masons are two relatively new players (like myself), in that it would draw fire away from more veteran town players. Agreed. | ||
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On April 23 2012 12:39 Sbrubbles wrote: Radfield, you are the one looking the most suspicious to me right now. On the Zentor/prplhz exchange, you defend Zentor, but agree with Forumite on Zentor's case on prplhz being weak: Correct. I'm not sure what you find suspicious about that. Someone making a weak case is certainly no indication of them being scum, especially when that case is made in the first half of day 1. I didn't think Zentor's case was strong, yet I also didn't see Zentor as scum. However, both of those things may change with time. And now, you're indirectly accusing prplhz, even though there has been no case on him (besides Zentor's, which you implied was weak) and haven't made one of your own. What's up with that? Something about prplhz is tickling my senses, though I haven't reread the game yet. I started to last night, but was too tired to focus. So now I'm up early with the intention of putting in some time before work. Prplhz is simply a bit too quiet for my liking at any rate. Also, you were the first to offer to vote VE (without an actual explanation as to why), and waited until someone else appeared voting for him in order to actually cast your vote. Is this merely a coincidence or were you waiting for someone else to accuse and vote him in order for yourself not to stand out? My reasons are my own for voting VE, though they will materialize in the thread before the day is out. The short version is that I've played scum with VE lately, and so far this reminds me of that game. | ||
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On April 23 2012 16:22 phagga wrote: ok, catching up. game mechanics stuff: - Hydras should sign. Everything else lowers transparency for town. - After reading all the pros and cons, I'd support a mason claim day 2. Reason: Many Vets + 2 masons = too many targets to handle for scum. D3 might be too late because of counterclaim (depends on nightkills and SK situation). On to more important stuff in no particular order: Mr. Zentor: I don't like how his "really long post" was actually not long at all, but only full of quotes. If we ignore the quotes, the post was quite short. So why announce it as long? His case on prplhz was weak, and when asked a second time why he thought that prplhz was still scummy, he never answered. His style is unnecessarily aggresive. VisceraEyes: His Filter shows 5 ingame posts, which is more than I have, but unlike me he is notorious for being very active borderline on spamming, trying to direct people and generally being helpful to town. He is completely lacking these features this game. His townread post is suspicious, I can't remember him making townlists like this in the last games? His behaviour currently reminds of the Bastard game we just were in, where he was SK. Ace: I don't like how he has basically been talking about game mechanics and shown no interest in hunting scum. However, I've read some games where he was in (last was space station) and I think this is part of his D1 play? Not entirely sure. Radfield: He would not have shown up in this list was it not for sbrubbles points. I think they are very legit, and I look forward to Radfields reaction. This is the definition of a 'safe' post. Everything in this post is a popular opinion that has already been mentioned by someone else. It hits slightly on all the major points of this game, without going into detail on any of them. Zentor -> parroting Forumite and talking like Zentor is scum, yet not stating that explicitly nor voting for him. Visceraeyes -> following Toads lead(backed by me), and again indirectly talking as if Visceraeyes is scum(or SK), without actually saying it. Ace and Radfield -> again parroting others points and slinging a bit of mud towards two strong players, without actually calling them out. So phagga, what is your actual opinion here? You seem to think both Zentor and VE are scummy, yet are doing nothing about it. Additionally, I have responded to Shrubbles, what do you think of my response? | ||
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 ), but will do my best to be on both at lunch and after work today. | ||
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On April 23 2012 19:29 prplhz wrote: @Radfield I was unavailable most of yesterday. You can read my last town game (Space Station) where I also play a more lurky style. You have a really bad habit of wanting to lynch me on meta when I'm town though, I remember you wanted to do this in .. Election Mafia? too.  I can't make sense of MrZentor. I know that traditionally I'm biased when it comes to people accusing me. The thing about MrZentor is that I think that his initial aggression against me looks really fake and forced, I could easily write a bigger post on this. Is there anything about his initial aggression that seemed genuine to you? Do you have any reason to think he is on the townie side other than "scum don't usually attract attention to themselves like that"? I don't actually want to lynch you yet prplhz, but there is something about your play that is niggling me. As far as Zentor, he seems classically townie to me. Forumite was talking about how he was nervous and defensive, but I don't really see that at all. If anything, he seemed unconcerned with his defense, and unafraid of the ramifications of his actions. His case on you was a bit premature, but I appreciate the effort. Actually, upon rereading that part of the thread in context, his case does seem a bit forced. I think had forumite not pressured him to continue posting why he thought you were scum, he would not have posted his case against you. Again though, I don't really see it as a sign of scum. It's not a plus, but it's not enough to make me see him as scum. | ||
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As far as VE goes, he still has not commented since I put my vote down. My intention was simply to apply pressure and see how he reacted, but he has not posted/reacted at all. At this point I'm willing to keep my vote there. I don't think zentor is scum. | ||
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VE: My intention of voting you was simply to see how you would react to moderate pressure. In past games I've played with you you've gotten pretty panicky as scum when people start pushing you. My intention was to see your reaction, but I really couldn't follow through with any real pressure, since I haven't had the time. I never really intended on getting you lynched, but when you disappeared it seemed out of character for you. Either way I don't think you are a good lynch candidate for today. Likewise, I don't think voting Ace makes a lot of sense either. I've said this before and will say it again: Lynching a potentially strong player on day 1(in the absence of a strong case) is very poor play. In this game that would be myself, Ace and Sandro, as I would say all three of us are consistently strong town-aligned players. Lynching any of the three of us only does mafia a favor. Shrubbles actually looks ok to me right now. He really only has two posts, as two of his posts are back to back. Though actually now that I look at it, they are timestamped on the exact same minute... + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 12:39 Sbrubbles wrote: I don't think VE is scummy and I don't trust cases based solely on meta. There's plenty of time for him to respond to accusations tomorrow, so we'll see what he says. MrZentor's early game was both agressive and annoying. His case on prplhz was pretty bad in my opinion and the self vote thing could mean absolutely anything (and, therefore, only causes confusion at this point). Still, the only game I've played with him he was scum, but his play was (at least initially) more calm and poised, so I am unsure what to make of this. I don't know whether I'd vote for him or not, gotta think more on it. Prplhz, you're being pretty quiet, which is a bit strange considering your early hustle with MrZentor. Forumite made a case on him and wants him lynched; can you comment on it? What do you think of MrZentor? Would you vote for him? On April 23 2012 12:39 Sbrubbles wrote: Radfield, you are the one looking the most suspicious to me right now. On the Zentor/prplhz exchange, you defend Zentor, but agree with Forumite on Zentor's case on prplhz being weak: + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 11:35 Radfield wrote: That is some weak sauce Zentor. Much of this I agree with, though not the last sentence. Zentor does not scream scum to me, at least not yet, and following this course through likely only nets us a dead townie. As you say yourself, only 1/3 of the players have even posted, so no need to be hasty. And now, you're indirectly accusing prplhz, even though there has been no case on him (besides Zentor's, which you implied was weak) and haven't made one of your own. What's up with that? + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 08:43 Radfield wrote: I was serious when I said I was willing to vote VE, however prplhz needs to show up or he might get the vote as well. More to come. ##vote Visceraeyes Also, you were the first to offer to vote VE (without an actual explanation as to why), and waited until someone else appeared voting for him in order to actually cast your vote. Is this merely a coincidence or were you waiting for someone else to accuse and vote him in order for yourself not to stand out? + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 22:26 Radfield wrote: I'm down with a VE vote at this point. On April 23 2012 08:43 Radfield wrote: I agree with Toad, enough about the masons. If in fact they exist, they have enough information and opinions to make their own decision. I was serious when I said I was willing to vote VE, however prplhz needs to show up or he might get the vote as well. More to come. ##vote Visceraeyes How did you manage to write up that second post in 1 minute? I suppose you could have written it up beforehand, but if so, then why did you make two seperate posts? That makes no sense, so please explain. Marvellosity seems like an ok lynch, though in the newbie game(Newbie VI) I hosted, marvellosity really only posted one liners during day 1, which is what he's doing here as well. I'd like to compare and contrast the two game before I make any serious judgement. ##unvote | ||
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Honestly, I don't really feel like doing the last hour scramble, and I don't think we will net scum doing that anyways. I'd be fine with a marvellosity or bluelightz lynch, but I doubt that gets us anywhere either. However, no-lynching doesn't really do us any good. Right now we have lylo on day 4(assuming no SK), and if we no-lynch we still have mylo on Day 4. However, if there IS a serial killer in the mix, every extra townie will count. I'm just feeling a bit apathetic towards the lynch and don't feel like forcing through a mediocre candidate(again). Also, lynching me day 1 is never a good idea. Have you ever notice how pretty much the only time townies find me scummy on day 1 is when I am town? Man, I really don't have the energy for this right now. Apologies all, I will try to pick it up tonight. | ||
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On April 24 2012 19:33 Bluelightz wrote: Sup bros, back Answering Ace, disregard meta, I just found it weird that Radfield chose to with hold information town 'could' have in the form of a case on VE, but then he just sheeped, I compared that to Radfield in Im A Cop You Idiot where when he made a case when he was suspicious of BH. Reading thread. I think you misunderstand what happened. I was not withholding information that could have formed a case on VE. I was voting him specifically because I wanted to see how he reacted with a bit of pressure. In other games I have played with VE he has buckled a bit under pressure. Unfortunately, I did not have time to properly follow up my vote with accusations etc. Hence my pressure was pretty non-existent. Ace wrote: @Radfield: Well you sure made it back in time with a thoughtful little post. But I don't agree with "dont lynch a strong Town player" theory. We lynch people that are shown to have scummy behavior regardless of past performance or reputation. None of us as far as I know, know each others' alignment. So just assuming that stance is ridiculous. I also don't buy that you didn't really want to lynch VE. If VE was at 5 votes and made that same post would you really have showed up to stop the wagon? If VE was at 5 votes then presumably he would have done something to garner those votes in the meantime. In which case obviously I would readjust depending on the situation. If the exact same situation had occurred (VE not posting) and he was up to 5 votes, then yes I would have left my vote, since the pressure I was looking for would have materialized. The key though is how he would have responded. Also, you know as well as anyone that I die early and often, so why are you trying(weakly) to get me lynched off some weak reason? You also know as well as anyone that if I'm given some time to play, I generate fairly accurate reads by around the end of Day 2. So why are you slinging mud my way when there is no cause to do so? Sit back, see if my reads match yours, see if I'm still alive when I shouldn't be, and THEN tell me why I'm scummy. Right now your vote on me does nothing but reduce the likelihood of other town players listening to me. It was not a serious shot at getting me lynched, only a hit at my credibility. | ||
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On April 24 2012 19:37 Bluelightz wrote: Radfield, if you have ANY other reason's on why VE is scum, can you post it? thanks. My initial concern was his first 3 posts seemed off to me. Since then I don't get a strong feeling either way on him. I have him as a null read. However, that is a null read in a game where I have a lot of town reads. He's one of the few players I'm keeping a close eye on. Sandro, how much time do you expect to devote to this game? Are you planning on letting Toad do the majority of the posting, or do you think you'll be around? | ||
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On April 24 2012 20:33 prplhz wrote: @Bluelightz, Radfield Can you give me some more input on MrZentor please. I still think that he is the scummiest in this thread. I know that you guys think that it's not mafia like to draw attention to themselves with an overly aggressive style like that, but I'm arguing that it looks forced and fake (and it's not townie style either!). With the amount of ad hominem jabs he's taken at me and Forumite he's either scum or an asshole and from the communication I just had with him in Space Station, he seemed like a really cool guy. He's just ignoring me now which makes absolutely no sense to me, I imagine that a townie would either try to explain stuff to me (since I'm actively trying to understand) or he would call me scum but he does neither and it seems really fake. I'm really angry with myself for not just pushing his lynch harder yesterday and getting it over with, he's going to be such an annoying factor in this game for me from now on no matter what his alignment is. What do you think about the no-lynch? Isn't it weird that town didn't just scramble for "information lynch" or whatever? I see it as a huge mistake that we didn't just lynch MrZentor yesterday. I should just have pushed his lynch harder. I think Zentor is town. His posting was casual and confident to start the game, he seems unafraid of consequences in his posting and is not looking to make friends. He is also seemingly shooting from the hip, posting whatever seems to come to him when it comes to him. Additionally he has been confident and cocky about his own towniness, above and beyond what I would expect of a mafia player. On the flip side, his case on you prplhz was somewhat stretched and fabricated. Of course any case made a few hours into Day 1 will look like that but it still didn't look great. I see him as pretty surely town, and a bad Day 2 target. Ace, if we're both alive on Day 2 we can discuss this further, but I'm not going to devote any more time to it right now. | ||
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My comments regarding no-lynch is that we don't get any truly tangible benefits from a no-lynch. For instance, imagine if by no lynching yesterday we would give ourselves an extra mislynch down the stretch(ie, push lylo from Day 4 to Day 5). In that situation, a no-lynch has tangible real benefits. When I said " it doesn't really do us any good", I did not mean that a no-lynch is bad. Simply that it literally doesn't do us a lot of good. In this situation, I think a no-lynch was better than a mislynch(which is not always the case). Not to mention that I was voting 5 minutes before the deadline in an obvious no-lynch situation | ||
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On April 25 2012 02:06 Snarfs wrote: Okay. Another one. If you're town then you're likely to die tonight anyways, so why save your reads for the next 5 hours rather than give them now? If you're going to die, I would like a chance to discuss your reads with you before that happens. Also, it seems more likely that scum would let you live if you were wrong than that they would be more inclined to kill you if you're right. They're probably going to assume you're right until you say something wrong. Just WIFOM, I know, but a thought Mainly because I didn't think I would have time to before now. Also, if I do die tonight, I don't think you can really read any more into my reads than if I live. Mafia will kill me or let me live regardless of how accurate my reads are. Anyways, here's what I'm looking at after 1 sweep through the game. I guarantee these reads will change, some drastically. People talk a lot about not giving town reads, but I don't really agree with that. I think my strength at this game comes because i have good town reads, so I'm sharing them now. Keep in mind however that this is only Night 1, and these reads are necessarily weaker than normal. Zentor I have commented on already. I think his play is strongly town aligned this game, though I have no meta to compare to. He's been cavalier in his actions and attitude, and nothing he has done really rubs me the wrong way. His case on prplhz was weak, but I don't think it stemmed from a mafia mindset. SamuelLJackson I have difficulty with. My normal scum hunting heuristics fail me when it comes to Toad. I mentioned in 'I'm a Cop you Idiot' that I struggle with scum players who put in a lot of effort and post a lot of content(whether good content or bad). Toad falls heavily into that category, and has fooled me the last two times we have played together(him scum, me town). However, Sandro does NOT fall into that category. In my mind Sandro has a fairly well established scum meta, and this is to be far less active than normal. So far his activity level fits squarely with him being scum. I won't say I have a scum read on these two, but I am leaning that way. At any rate, I expect them to die quickly(especially if a SK exists), and if they last till lylo they are very likely scum. Snarfs I read as probably town. I like his play so far, as it reminds me of my own at times. He's asking a lot of questions, and poking people when he sees something he doesn't like. However, this is a legit mafia strat as well. Altogether though he lands on the town side for me. VE: Not really sure right now. I need more content, and need to go over his filter a few more times. Solidly null read right now. phagga looks scummy to me right now. That's a day 1 read though, so it could change drastically. I don't intend on building a case right now(I would need to spend some time and make sure), but something looks off. prplhz, prob town. His posting seems pretty standard town prplhz, though I'd really like to see him stop focusing on Zentor as I think that is a dead end. Strongandbig gets bonus points for his mason breadcrumb scheme. Fact is, it's a good plan, and shows a good mindset. He's been reading filters and putting in effort, though I don't agree with his snarfs post. So far I see strong town play, though I really don't like his most recent post about Zentor being the SK. That post really rubbed me the wrong way. Tentative town. The only reason I'm not more pro town on him is that his type of play is the type I get thrown by. Forumite has been strong and forward in his posts this game, so far I like them. I've only filtered him the one time though, but I'm leaning town. I need to look into him again, because I can't really remember specifics of why I had him written down prob town. Sbrubbles hasn't been super active, but I like all his posts. In particular I feel like he has some good thought processes going on in his posts, and I have a strong town read on him. He needs to pick up his activity level though, or my read will slowly degrade. Marvellosity. I still need to compare this game to the Newbie VI game I hosted, but so far I think marv is probably town, and not a good lynch. I need to do a bit more legwork though to see if that opinion holds up. bluelightz I have no idea. If I had no prior knowledge of him I would lean strongly scum, but as such.... who knows. Ace I'm not going to worry about. Every game I have ever seen him play(or played with him) I think he is scum(and this game is no exception). I mean that literally - every game. I think the reason Ace has such a strong scum game is because his town play is scummy as hell. As such, I'm hoping mafia(or SK) shoot him tonight, and make my life easier I'll delve into him on Day 2 if we are both alive.Honestly, typing this out is more for me than for anyone else, but here's my current breakdown: Town Sbrubbles(my roommate's convinced he's scum )Zentor Leaning Town snarfs prplhz Forumite? Somewhat Scummy Ace phagga In the event of my death, do with this what you will. I'm heading to dinner and will be back after the Daypost. | ||
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If we only have 1 kill tonight though, then if the vigilante hits on night 2 he can confirm himself when he claims the extra KP. I can't remember if people are informed about protected hits though(or even if that matters), and I gotta run. | ||
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Last night I used my check on Ace, he flipped clean. Given that only 1 KP was fired last night, and it was predictably fired at Toad/Sandro, I think we can safely assume there is only 1 anti-town KP in play(ie, no SK). This means that mafia cannot kill me without simultaneously confirming Ace as town. Now, why should you believe me? I can state with 100% accuracy that there exists no other 1 shot cops in this game. If you check the C9++ setup, there can never be multiple 1-shot cops. There can be regular cops in conjunction with 1-shot cops, but never more than 1 one-shot. (WBG did state he was altering the setup, but I highly doubt he altered it in that way). If I am faking, than any 1-shot cop out there should be instantly counter-claiming me and coming out with their checks. That will not happen however, as mafia then run the risk of losing a member and confirmed both me and Ace in one swoop. At any rate, this should confirm Ace as town to everyone. It's possibly he is godfather, but with RNGed roles, and only a 75% chance of a GF existing in the setup, I am willing to gamble that I'm not THAT unlucky. Maybe you think me AND ace are scum, but realize that would be an exceptionally foolish play for a stacked mafia team that could probably cruise to victory on standard play. If you think I am mafia, and trying to buy cred(or get ace of my back) by faking a clean check, then you STILL need to see Ace as Town. Ace is Town, I am a cop, and the masons need to claim if they are in play. | ||
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Please show me a single player who has flipped scum(besides chezinu) who has played a scum game like this. It doesn't happen. Yet it's not uncommon at all for townies to play a style like this. The lynch just feels wrong to me. So Zentor, if you ARE town please shape up. You're diverting focus and giving mafia an easy place to park their votes. There are likely no masons, as they would have promptly followed my claim. Snarfs, I'll respond to your points this evening when I have more time. However I DID mess up in that I didn't realize the Framer was non-standard and could cover mafia as well. I'll also likely be building a case on someone I think is scum, but I want to reread them first to be sure. | ||
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I seem to like tying myself to Zentor . Fortunately I am confident he will flip town(and I'm also confident you guys are going to lynch him unless I do something about it). Fortunately(again) I will be around all night.On April 26 2012 01:11 Forumite wrote: Radfield, I don´t think you answered this question; Why are you so sure there MUST be at most one 1-shot DT? Do we have any guarantees at all that this game uses the C9++ setup exactly? On April 25 2012 21:37 Ace wrote: Did wbg post anywhere about how he derived this setup? If not 2 one-shot Cops are not out of play. Bugs confirmed that this was a C9++, but ' balanced for TL standards'. I take that to mean that the roles themselves, and how often they appear have been tweaked slightly. Indeed, we can see that a Miller exists, a Jailkeeper exists, and an Innocent Child does not exist. These are all changes, and all changes that move the C9++ in line with 'TL Standards' imo. I also expect that he altered how often masons appear. However, I think it extremely unlikely that he altered something random like the breakdown of one-shot cops and full cops. That's such minutiae that if he was changing those things, it's really no longer a C9++. Maybe I'm overstepping, but I'm confident that I have a handle on the way in which bugs tweaked the setup. Confident enough to stake my life on it apparently .I think one of phagga or VE should be our lynch today, maybe snarfs. Those three are certainly at the top of my charts right now, though I still have yet to check marv. I'm going to spend some time and break the three of them down this evening, and see which one jumps out at me. A case is forthcoming. | ||
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On April 26 2012 07:45 VisceraEyes wrote: Radfield, you should probably tell me why you think I'm scum bro. I'm a terrible lynch. I'm reading you over right now. I'll let you know if you're a lynchsicle when I finish. | ||
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As such, I'm going to be detailing how certain posts show a mafia oriented mindset. I'd also like to illustrate that I don't think VE really ever gave a crap about who we voted(or who he voted) for Day 1, despite the fact that he spent a lot of time talking about the lynch. On April 22 2012 14:46 VisceraEyes wrote: I think everyone who has posted so far is town. + Show Spoiler + Yes, this is me soft-claiming town. I look forward to hearing from Ace - after his untimely demise in SSM I didn't expect him to be back in a game so quickly. ^^ This really is a bizarre first post. We're a few hours into the game, and VE is declaring that he thinks 5 players(everyone who has posted) are town. Why as a townie would you EVER say that? Why would you ever THINK that? It takes me the better part of Day 1 to begin to pick up town reads, and certainly more than a few posts. Fact is, I agree with VE, that I think all five of those players(prplhz, forumite, zentor, Radfield, SamuelL) ARE town. I think VE came into the thread and saw that, and fired it out. On April 24 2012 06:20 VisceraEyes wrote: Rad made me rethink voting marv - I went back and reread the beginning of his newbie game that I read and he did find himself the victim of early suspicion. This is a completely twisted way to look at meta. The fact that he was found suspicious on day 1 in another game is completely irrelevant to this game. The key is why he looked suspicious, how he was playing, and how it compares to this game. If no one found him suspicious in Newbie VI, that wouldn't matter, because the key is how his play in that game(and alignment) compare to this game. I don't think a town player(at least not one who has played as much as VE) would look at a past game and say, " oh, people found him suspicious in that game, and I find him suspicious in this game, therefore I will reconsider my suspicions". It makes no sense. He actually mentions this again later on, and again uses the same reasoning:+ Show Spoiler + Marv: Marv hasn't given me much to go on today - I'm waiting to see what kind of stuff he puts out today. As I said earlier, meta-wise (Ltd.) it's not unusual for marv to be in hot water D1, so I'm eager to see what he's got. If he fails to produce, I'd like to destroy him. Again, the key is WHY he got in hot water, and how it compares to his play this game. Yet VE is not looking for that. On April 25 2012 08:24 VisceraEyes wrote: Unless Rad and Ace are both scum (imba?) I have to believe that Rad is telling the truth about his claim. However, unlike Radfield I'm not so willing to dismiss the idea that Ace is GF based on "Radfield's luck". However, facts is facts, and I don't see Radfield fake-claiming DT just to clear someone. Therefor, I'm willing to believe Radfield's claim and I'm also willing to reserve judgement on Ace until I see more of his play. Again, we have a failure here from VE. "Unless Rad and Ace are both scum (imba?) I have to believe that Rad is telling the truth about his claim". He is completely ignoring the other scenarios where I could be scum, other than just me and Ace being teammates. Yet VE states that unless they're both scum, Radfield must be town. Lets go through the other options, both of which have been pointed out by other players: I am scum and trying to buy townie cred. I KNOW ace is town aligned, therefore I can get him off my back at a time when he is pressuring me. It was also pointed out that depending on mafia roles, they can surmise the likelihood of a counter-claim. I am SK and trying to buy townie cred. I KNOW ace will go along with me. Either he is scum and now knows I am SK, or he is town and will likely believe my claim. It's a pure gamble though, and a less likely scenario. Me and Ace both being teammates is actually quite unlikely. We would make a very formidable scum-team, and exposing ourselves with such a ballsy claim would be irrational and irresponsible. VE immediately accepts my alignment as town, and in fact only questions whether I would fake claim as a townie. Town players should be questioning whether I am scum or not, NOT questioning whether I am actually vanilla town faking a cop check. Only mafia would question that, because they already KNOW I am town. On April 25 2012 08:31 VisceraEyes wrote: How do you feel about MrZentor? I feel like a lot of people were throwing around "town" a lot in conjunction with MrZentor, so the fact that he didn't die overnight is kinda surprising to me. Taken with his mystifying self-vote immediately into D2, what do you think about him now? Straight up bizarre. No town player should have been remotely suspecting Zentor to get night-killed. There was no way mafia would ever kill him, he was way too massive of a distraction. If you are a townie, ask yourself this: Did you remotely expect Zentor to get killed night 1? This shows a massive disconnect in VE's thought process from what a typical town view should have been. Based on the fact that my scumreads are weak as hell after rereading (those who know me will notice a distinct lack of red text), I think scum are putting in way less effort than most everyone who's posting. One more small contradiction. These two sentences do not make sense together. He claims first that he has no scumreads, yet then immediately claims that scum are putting less effort, which in theory would give you some really easy scumreads. If all the scum are just doggin it, then they should stick out like sore thumbs compared to "most everyone who's posting." AND NOW A WORD FROM OUR SPONSORS! I'd like to take this commercial break to have you look at this quote, really look at it. Forumite: If you had asked me yesterday, I'd have said that between the two, Forumite/Zentor, Forumite looked worse. However, since Zentor has started looking worse, Forumite has proportionally started looking better based on how early he was on Zentor's shit yesterday. I'm going to have to go back through and reread their interactions once I hear what Zentor has been up to and make a judgement based on that. Right now, I'd say he's looking okay. So first Forumite looked worse. However somehow Zentor and Forumite are on a see-saw, and forumite looks better the worse Zentor looks. This is ridiculous, and completely at odds with proper scum hunting, which VE knows full well. Additionally, here is VE's read from Day 1 on Forumite: On April 24 2012 02:06 VisceraEyes wrote: I think Forumite is town - but I think his MrZentor wagon is weak as shit, because I think Zentor is town too. :S Forumite is town, and in no way does VE insinuate that he finds Forumite scummy. Yet somehow on Day 2 Forumite has crawled his way up to only "looking okay", when VE clearly stated he saw Forumite as Town on Day 1. Conundrum and Contradiction. AND WE"RE BACK! I want to detail how I don't think VE really cared about our Day 1 lynch, but I'm having trouble setting it down in text, as I think it's kind of subtle. I'm not going to use quotes, so I highly recommend you go back and read the relevant section in VE's filter(or better yet, the full game text). Short form is this: VE never actually does any scum-hunting on Day 1, nor does he ever actually try to push a lynch. He bounces around, pushes a candidate here, throws some names out there, but never really commits. He begins by pushing an ace lynch, yet immediately after(as in next sentence) starts discussing lynching lurkers, particularly sbrubbles. His vote on Ace is so supremely weak that it doesn't merit a vote by a long shot. He then switches onto sbrubbles for no reason than the fact that he has few posts. Yet sbrubbles few posts were jam packed with content, and showed obvious thought and care for the game. VE keeps bouncing though, and it seems obvious to me that he was searching for an appropriate bandwagon. He makes plenty of weak suggestions - ace, myself, sbrubbles, marv - but refuses to run with any of them, and is constantly seeking approval of the other players. I will also add that both VE's conciliatory tone, and lower than normal activity level raise my suspicions, but those are not by themselves scummy things. I think there is a body of evidence though that shows VE is not playing his usual town game, and is consistently displaying mafia thought patterns. ##Vote: Visceraeyes | ||
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Radfield
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I'll admit that the voting section is slightly weaker than I like, but it is only part of a body of evidence. I think there are numerous tells in your posting that show a mafia mindset. | ||
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On April 26 2012 09:44 Forumite wrote: I disagree with your analsis in this case. A scummy player who narrowly avoid a lynch sounds like a prime target for a vigi-shot. We are at the same place we were yesterday before the lynch, a nightkill on MrZentor would have given us back this day. Radfield, what about the MrZentor lynch? I agree with that. Zentor getting vigged would be likely, but that is NOT what VE is referring to. He is specifically postulating that it's strange Zentor was not killed by mafia, even if he doesn't explicitly say it. I bet VE will even confirm that. On April 26 2012 09:43 Bluelightz wrote: Scum team is Forumite, phagga, and VisceraEyes. Bluelightz, If you are town than your play has improved over last game, but I highly recommend you stop trying to find the entire scum team in one swoop. Focus on one player at a time, and peg them. Once we find one scum, we will start looking for the next one. | ||
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Radfield
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I was thinking today about how Ace said to keep it simple. But I think that the simple answer is not: "player is blatantly disruptive, therefore he is scum". Fact is 98% of the time scum just try to blend in with town. So the actual simple answer is "player is blatantly disruptive, he's probably an uncaring townie". That's obvious a simplification, but you get the jist. Anyways if he flipped scum I'd be surprised but not shocked. I think VE is a better target by a long shot. | ||
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On April 26 2012 09:52 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm just playin Rad, it's a great case - its weakness is that it's based on my inactivity and your perception of my mindset while posting. I fully intend to actually respond to it in full sir, I was just joking. I know I'm just being Mr Serious <3 | ||
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On April 26 2012 10:03 Forumite wrote: Why couldn´t he be talking about MrZentor getting shot by a vigilante? That statement doesn´t make sense unless he was talking about a vigishot. Like you said, there´s no way mafia would kill him, but a vigi might. He specifically says that a lot of people thought Zentor was town. Why would you expect someone who lots of people think is town to get vigged? You wouldn't, you'd expect them to get shot by mafia. Lots of people think is scum -> Expect Vig hit Lots of people think is town -> Expect Mafia hit Yes? prplhz, I'll respond to you in the morning. | ||
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My time is far too limited to do the things I want to this game. I'll be on later tonight.Anyways, I will vote Zentor at crunch time if need be, as we surely don't need another day of this. | ||
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If anyone mentions lynching bluelightz tomorrow(our other easy lynch) I'm going to be very sad. Time to go in depth on Phagga. + Show Spoiler + I saw your posts Phagga, and I wasn't ignoring you. I've just been short of time to put in the legwork necessary to go beyond an initial bare bones scum-read. | ||
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A bluelightz lynch will get us no more info than a zentor lynch did. Ask yourself Ace, have we really learned anything from lynching Zentor? Almost every mislynch you learn a tremendous amount of information... unless of course you pick some weak townie who's hardly playing and everyone piles on. There is going to be very little to discern scum from town on the zentor wagon(though I imagine scum were not the ones pushing hard for his lynch). Tomorrow we do things my way. We actually scumhunt, we build cases, we discuss and we don't just drop back on some weak bluelightz case. (unless someone want's to build a serious and thought out case on bluelightz, which I have no problem with) Only 8 minutes and you made me sad Ace | ||
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On April 27 2012 08:20 Ace wrote: hold up playa - I didn't say we WILL lynch him. I said he's the easy lynch. I think we did learn plenty from Zentor's lynch: 1.) You and/or Bluelightz knew ahead of time that he was innocent because one of you is Scum. I think BL is the easy lynch precisely because of this. He didn't actually address the arguments against Zentor. Just calling out suspects with every new post. 2.) Even if you think the Zentor lynch was easy everyone knew it was coming. There is NO way anyone that is competent at this game would have let someone playing like that live. Just because it was easy doesn't mean it was bad. Once again - look at his posts and look at my post outlining how the chain of events happened. Address those points if you want to defend this lynch. Don't worry about being sad though, I'm here to make everything better. 1) That is awfully simplistic, and an obviously incorrect way of scumhunting. Also who cares if he's calling out suspects with every new post? Initially you were bent out of shape because you felt he was redirecting away from a mafia lynch. Yet that is obviously not the case as Zentor was town, so presumably bluelightz goes from someone fighting for a scum buddy, to simply an eager townie looking for scum. Why are you trying to set him up for a Day 3 lynch? 2) I am a competent player and I would have let Zentor live. Zentor had done nothing that screamed scum and had spotlighted himself in a way very few scum ever would. Regardless, Zentor is dead and multiple town players were convinced of his guilt. Had he not died today he would have only been a distraction moving forward. | ||
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On April 26 2012 18:42 phagga wrote: prphlz, I know you are fixed on getting Zentor lynched, but who else do you see scummy currently? @Bluelightz, I agree that there might only be 2 scum. I had not even realized that only 2 scum was a possibility. I was obviously reading the C9++ setup wrong. At any rate, it seems fairly likely that we don't have a lot of power roles this game. Consider: No masons, as they would've claimed No jailkeepers, as no on claimed a roleblock No vigilantes fired on N1 No Serial Killer, as there was only 1 kill(possibly overlap though) 1 1-shot Cop, likely no second full cop. No roleblockers, again as no one claimed a roleblock. This is doubly important, as combined with no SK it means we know the setup exactly: 1 Goon, 1 Godfather, 1 Town Power role(me). Unless I've messed up on reading, this is the setup. This means that if Ace is scum, there is actually a 50% chance that I failed on my check, and there was only a single player in the game that I could actually get a positive result from. This actually makes me feel a lot better both about my constant scum-read from Ace, as well as my glut of town reads. Ace, you mentioned VE was number 3 scum on your list, and I assume Zentor was #1. Who was you're number 2? Phagga, what are your scum reads right now? prplhz, your Day 2 contributions have been very lacking. Now that Zentor is nice and dead, where do you see the scum lying? On April 26 2012 07:18 Snarfs wrote: Before we get all crazy with the "maybe snarfs", know that VE is right at the top of my scum list. My vote on MrZentor is more a policy vote than a scum vote. I'm trying my best to find scum and it felt like his actions were undermining that goal. This is some weak weak sauce Snarfs. I have been trying to find scum too, and Zentor impinged not one bit on my abilities to do so. Why is VE at the top of your scum list? Who else do you see as scum right now? Who is unlynchablely town in your eyes(and why)? | ||
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On April 27 2012 09:56 Ace wrote: What you deem as an incorrect way of scumhunting, I see as a golden opportunity for Scum to buy cred. And since I've done it multiple times myself as Scum I think I would know it when I see it. Majority of the Town thinks Player A is Scum. Scum knows Player A is innocent, gets on any wagon not involving Player A. When Player A flips Town goes with the "I told you so!" rhetoric. This is why BEFORE Zentor flipped I outlined that no one attacked the case on Mr.Zentor but instead brought up new suspects to divert the wagon. Go ahead and REREAD the thread. If I'm wrong - show me. Show me where anyone had an actual breakdown of the cases on Zentor being wrong instead of "I don't think a Townie would act like this". Saying zentor did nothing that screamed out he is Scum is just comical. Look I know the drill, and I've obviously done it before as scum too. I just strongly object the way that you are setting up bluelightz for a Day 3 lynch, based mainly off the fact that he refused to vote for a now confirmed town, and instead searched about for better targets. It's simplistic to say that of the two players NOT voting for Zentor, one of us is scum. It is not far fetched at all for the entire mafia team to pile on Zentor, particularly if we're looking at a two player team. There was no case on Zentor to even attack. No one could dispute his actions, you can only dispute his motivations - were they mafia motivated to mess up a thread, or just a bored trolling townie. That is not something you can debate or attack, you can only state your opinion on the matter. | ||
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On April 27 2012 10:06 Ace wrote: BL is my #2 Scum read. It's impossible for there to be only 2 Scum in a 13 player set up. Why do you say that? http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9++ Am I reading the setup options wrong? Bugs, it having a 2 player scum team one possible setup of a C9++? | ||
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On April 25 2012 06:26 marvellosity wrote: I really don't get why Radfield has a town read on Zentor. Zentor is being actively unhelpful. In fact that's all he's doing. Where is this town read coming from? On April 25 2012 06:47 marvellosity wrote: I'm going to say it again. I don't understand Radfield's strong town-read on Zentor at all, when he's only been unconstructive. Is this not odd? Really? After having your own town read on him and then slowly swaying towards wanting to lynch him, you can no longer fathom how someone else might still have a town read on him? You had a town read, though yours changed, I had a town read, though mine did not. Why was that so hard to fathom? Keep in mind I understand how you derived your scum read, I just don't see where your confusion comes from about my town read. | ||
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On April 27 2012 10:22 Ace wrote: My own are right here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14479651 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14479763 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14480050 I analyzed his actions in all my posts and yes you can dispute them. It's exactly what I did. I said even before Zentor flipped and I'll say it again: No one addressed any of the cases, or "people posting about Zentor's actions" if thats what you want to call it. No one. It was just throwing other suspects names out there and saying "I dont think a Townie would do this" which is not the way to convince other players NOT to lynch someone. Really, it's just appearing to defend a guy while not giving a shit. First two are just you stating Zentor didn't care about defending himself, which he obviously didn't. No one can dispute that(though bluelightz actually tries ).The third has some points, though mainly just conjecture about Zentor's actions. The thing is, bluelightz defended Zentor long before his lynch was assured, and also actually responded to two of your posts that you linked. Eventually he just stops focusing on Zentor as his lynch was pretty much assured, and moves on to looking for scum. A completely appropriate and townie thing to do. He never just barges in and calls everyone stupid for voting an obvious townie, nor does he try to set himself up to look good after Zentor's death. He simply refuses to vote for someone he has a town read on. I don't get why you think that is scummy. On April 25 2012 21:59 Bluelightz wrote: The problem is that from past experiences with Zentor I feel that he is town, and we will mislych today because he doesnt bother to defend himself, AGAIN. Comparing to: SoAF Mafia, where he was all trololol day 2 till his claim and reads. The funny thing is bluelightz was pretty much bang on with Zentor. He was actually all trololol up until his Day 2 reads. | ||
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On April 27 2012 10:24 marvellosity wrote: Because having been called out on his weirdness, he just got trollier, more destructive, and more unhelpful as time went on. His behaviour just deteriorated to the point where "he's done stuff like this before" stops flying. After a point I cannot fathom a town motivation for how he continued to behave Townies do the ALL THE TIME I just don't get why you thought my town-read was so baffling, when after Day 1 you had a town read yourself on Zentor. | ||
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Snarfs, I agree with most of that. Keep in mind as well that if this is actually a 2 scum(1 godfather) game, my dt check means pretty much nothing. Does anyone disagree with my setup assessment? With zero claimed roleblocks and no SK, I think we can safely assume that we have 1 goon 1 godfather and 1 power role. | ||
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If I DO die, nothing should be concluded about VE's alignment from that. There is simply too much WIFOM to trace my death to VE's innocence or guilt. On April 27 2012 11:10 Snarfs wrote: I don't like putting too much weight into setup speculation. Bugs is neither going to confirm nor deny how many scum we have. Whether we have 2 or 3 mafia, we still need to start by lynching 2. This is not setup speculation. We are dealing with facts. No one has claimed roleblocked, this is a fact. Only 1 KP last night, this is a fact. We can deduce from this that there is very likely no roleblocker, and most likely no Serial Killer. That only leaves one possible setup: 1 goon, 1 godfather, 1 town power role. That is very important. | ||
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If you accept that there is no mafia roleblocker, that leaves only 3 possible setups. If you further accept that there is no Serial Killer, that only leaves 1 possible setup. Agreed? | ||
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On April 28 2012 04:38 strongandbig wrote: (b), however, is where I get a bit suspicious. Even though I can understand the motivation of wanting to stay alive, it seems like a mini like this one where something like half the players are known mafia veterans would be the worst one to start a conscious change in meta as a townie. First, it's bound to raise suspicion unnecessarily from players who are known good readers of meta. Second, even if a domineering and very active town style tends to attract mafia guns in normal games, in a game like this one where there's plenty of veteran targets, it seems odd to be so worried about getting killed quickly - especially when VE himself has posted about how stacked this town is and how he couldn't be a leader in it. Third, and related to the first two, VE should have known that he would be making himself an easy vote park for scum by changing up his playstyle on purpose. I think this is an excellent point. I'm at work right now, and may not last the night, but I'm fairly convinced VE is scum. I'm pretty sure that other than defending himself, he has done absolutely nothing for a long time. I'm also not married to my DT check on Ace. His play this game reeks of scum. | ||
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Radfield
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Also, you were not the only person suspicious of Ace. There is a reason I checked him after all. Not to mention, what are you even insinuating here? That me and Ace are scum buddies? Also, please show me where I waffled on thinking you are scum. Me not responding to your defense has nothing to do with whether I agree with it or not. It has to do with time, and how much of it I have. The short version is that I still think you're scum. I think Marv is probably town. | ||
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On April 28 2012 07:11 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm insinuating that you knew that Ace was innocent and used that to try and get him on your side by "clearing" him D2. What kind of cop claims just to "clear" someone anyway? Cops don't claim to "clear" someone, they claim to kill scum. Why in the piss would you render yourself useless to town by claiming JUST TO CLEAR ACE?! I'm a one-shot cop, which means I lose nothing by claiming. Also at the time I felt that it provided me with cover from scum. By shooting me, mafia would validate my check, and prove ace innocent. Therefore they couldn't shoot me without confirming another strong player as town. However, I'm now unsure of how much I trust my check, particularly in a 2 scum game(where 1 is GF). | ||
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want me to edit that out WBG? | ||
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I like to think I could have led a lynch against Ace if I'd lived one more day, but it's impossible to say. I really felt that once I died there was no one left to push a lynch on Ace. He's just too squirmy Bluelightz you played very well this game. The contrast between this game and Palmar's game is like two completely different players. You now just need to work on your refining your reads, and learning to look at someones play as a whole, not just the most recent 12 hours(it really felt like your reads were bouncing around). Keep up the good work. Solid early game scum play from Forumite, and a good finish as well. You stayed off the radar convincingly for at least the first two full cycles. | ||
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On May 06 2012 07:43 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Sucks to investigate the godfather night 1 :-( I feel like that actually really hurt town this game, made it much harder to get rid of Ace and gave him a free ride for awhile. It does suck, but I was pretty clear by the end that I didn't trust that check. And if the guy who made the check doesn't trust it, no one else should either. Not to mention, mafia would probably NOT have killed me if it meant confirming Ace as town. When I died even more alarm bells should have been going off that Ace was anti-town. | ||
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Lynching anyone but a scum candidate(NOT an anti-town candidate, I'm making a distinction here), is a move that allows mafia to coast by for a day. ANYONE can come up with a legitimate reason for lynching play like Zentor's, which means you learn nothing from the lynch. I understand why he was lynched, and why people wanted to lynch him. I'm just saying that that is a definite area where people can improve their town play. ie sorting townie tells from scum tells, and not lynching just to get rid of or punish someone. | ||
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