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On April 26 2012 01:53 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 01:49 marvellosity wrote:On April 26 2012 01:48 strongandbig wrote:
The thing to disagree with is that by refusing to even discuss other scum reads, you're letting zentor kill off a full day of potentially useful discussion. Don't do that. Alright. Ask me a specific question and I will do my best to answer it. I just see no point in answering the "besides the scummy guy, who would you lynch?", because... we lynch the scummy guy. Fine, let me rephrase the question. Besides, MrZentor, who do you think is scum? I'm not trying to suggest we switch lynches today. I'm just trying to see some of your original thoughts.
That's the same question, I understand you weren't suggesting we switch lynches for today. But, nonetheless - I was somewhat irritated by Radfield's cop claim, as realistically for now I think it has to be accepted it. But there has been something off about his posts.
On April 21 2012 10:24 Radfield wrote:
My challenge for you this game is to have zero 1 liners. If you are going to post, make sure it actually serves a purpose. Do some analysis and make sure that your opinions have actual reasoning behind them, and show that reasoning.
This was directed at Bluelightz, but I'm linking it as relevant to what he thinks townies should be doing.
On April 22 2012 11:35 Radfield wrote:
That is some weak sauce Zentor.
Mini jab at Zentor, ok.
On April 23 2012 19:41 Radfield wrote:
As far as Zentor, he seems classically townie to me. Forumite was talking about how he was nervous and defensive, but I don't really see that at all. If anything, he seemed unconcerned with his defense, and unafraid of the ramifications of his actions. His case on you was a bit premature, but I appreciate the effort.
Actually, upon rereading that part of the thread in context, his case does seem a bit forced. I think had forumite not pressured him to continue posting why he thought you were scum, he would not have posted his case against you. Again though, I don't really see it as a sign of scum. It's not a plus, but it's not enough to make me see him as scum.
Now Zentor seems townie because of his faux-case at the start of Day 1.
On April 25 2012 00:41 Radfield wrote:
I think Zentor is town. His posting was casual and confident to start the game, he seems unafraid of consequences in his posting and is not looking to make friends. He is also seemingly shooting from the hip, posting whatever seems to come to him when it comes to him. Additionally he has been confident and cocky about his own towniness, above and beyond what I would expect of a mafia player.
I dislike this "above and beyond what I would expect of a mafia player". Mafia players as a tendency don't simply play to people's expectations, otherwise they'd be easier to find.
On April 25 2012 06:22 Radfield wrote:
Zentor I have commented on already. I think his play is strongly town aligned this game, though I have no meta to compare to. He's been cavalier in his actions and attitude, and nothing he has done really rubs me the wrong way. His case on prplhz was weak, but I don't think it stemmed from a mafia mindset.
I just don't understand this. Strongly townie aligned by a non-case followed by incessant trolling? What?
On April 25 2012 19:11 Radfield wrote:
I don't like this Zentor lynch. I feel like the case on Zentor is that he hasn't been playing like a nice safe contributory townie(which is how scum play). Instead he's been playing like he doesn't give a shit and being disruptive and arrogant. It's like he's trying to look as scummy as possible.
This is still bullshit to me. The case on Zentor is that he's been scummy and not playing pro-town, therefore he is town? Crap reasoning. Here I would remind you of the quote from earlier, how Radfield would want townie to play:
On April 21 2012 10:24 Radfield wrote:
My challenge for you this game is to have zero 1 liners. If you are going to post, make sure it actually serves a purpose. Do some analysis and make sure that your opinions have actual reasoning behind them, and show that reasoning.
How does this hold up to his opinion on Zentor in any way? It doesn't.
Just going through filter I find it amazing how many times he's defended Zentor because he's been playing too trolly/confident - despite it being the opposite of what he expects a good townie to be doing.
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On April 26 2012 22:18 Ace wrote:
I feel like there is much effort to throw around other suspects names' and derail the wagon on Mr.Zentor.
The same Zentor who showed up with his "20 hours later" post and didn't even attempt to convince anyone on his reads.
Are you people really this dumb?
Yes, but what do you actually think of the Radfield VE case?
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On April 26 2012 21:43 Sbrubbles wrote:
As I said, I agree with a marv lynch, especially if VE flips red (which I think he will).
##unvote VisceraEyes
##vote MrZentor
Heyoooooo.
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EBWOP: to expand a little - isn't it a bit early to be going back to Zentor to secure a majority (deadline is quite a long way away still) if you really think VE is scum?
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On April 27 2012 01:30 MrZentor wrote:Don't worry; I won't change my vote. If you want a mislynch, you're going to get one. I just hope town can make a comeback after my death. + Show Spoiler +Considering town has prphlz and forumite, I doubt that that's going to happen.
If you are in fact town, what is your reasoning for needlessly antagonising other people? Does this help to find scum?
And as an aside, how are you sure prplhz and forumite are town?
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On April 27 2012 02:28 Sbrubbles wrote:I'm questioning this part of your post: Rad has NOTHING in his post that would make you rethink voting marv. Nothing about going back to the beggining and rereading. Nothing. In fact, his post is lightly pro-marv lynch. If you see something in the following post that says anything about marv's metagame, about going back to the beggining and about rereading or anything of that kind, please point it out:
Here you go.
On April 24 2012 04:34 Radfield wrote:
Marvellosity seems like an ok lynch, though in the newbie game(Newbie VI) I hosted, marvellosity really only posted one liners during day 1, which is what he's doing here as well. I'd like to compare and contrast the two game before I make any serious judgement.
##unvote
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On April 27 2012 06:56 MrZentor wrote:
Forumrite and Prphlz, hopefully in the next game I play with you, you won't be so blinded by emotions.
And hopefully you won't post like such a douchebag all game. We all have our wishes
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I really don't see Bluelights as a good lynch candidate for tomorrow. His posting just doesn't say scum to me.
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On April 27 2012 10:22 Radfield wrote:Marvellosity, how did you go from having a town read on Zentor Day 1. Defending him 3 separate times, to this: Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:26 marvellosity wrote:
I really don't get why Radfield has a town read on Zentor.
Zentor is being actively unhelpful. In fact that's all he's doing. Where is this town read coming from? Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:47 marvellosity wrote:
I'm going to say it again. I don't understand Radfield's strong town-read on Zentor at all, when he's only been unconstructive.
Is this not odd? Really? After having your own town read on him and then slowly swaying towards wanting to lynch him, you can no longer fathom how someone else might still have a town read on him? You had a town read, though yours changed, I had a town read, though mine did not. Why was that so hard to fathom? Keep in mind I understand how you derived your scum read, I just don't see where your confusion comes from about my town read.
Because having been called out on his weirdness, he just got trollier, more destructive, and more unhelpful as time went on.
His behaviour just deteriorated to the point where "he's done stuff like this before" stops flying.
After a point I cannot fathom a town motivation for how he continued to behave
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I've just explained why, I'm not going to repeat myself.
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On April 27 2012 10:40 Radfield wrote:
Cool, I thought maybe you were just clarifying your own read. It doesn't really matter though, as I don't really think you're scum right now.
I went back to clarify my own thoughts on what I posted, the third mention of Zentor being:
On April 23 2012 21:40 marvellosity wrote:
For now I would say it could sound somewhat scummy, but more information is required. From what I know of Zentor I reckon it more likely that he would be belligerent/odd as town than scum. This is NOT saying he has a free pass to do stupid stuff, just opinion on what he's done so far.
My opinion was that he was probably more likely to be odd/beligerent as town. The bit in bold is what helps to explain my subsequent stance on Zentor.
If this is how he plays town now, then he's just awful. Because it was so bad.
Bluelightz can be all over the place, but his play as town is never wilfully abrasive or malicious.
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On April 27 2012 10:43 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:02 Radfield wrote:On April 26 2012 07:18 Snarfs wrote:
Before we get all crazy with the "maybe snarfs", know that VE is right at the top of my scum list. My vote on MrZentor is more a policy vote than a scum vote. I'm trying my best to find scum and it felt like his actions were undermining that goal. This is some weak weak sauce Snarfs. I have been trying to find scum too, and Zentor impinged not one bit on my abilities to do so. Why is VE at the top of your scum list? Who else do you see as scum right now? Who is unlynchablely town in your eyes(and why)? Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 08:12 Radfield wrote:
A bluelightz lynch will get us no more info than a zentor lynch did. Ask yourself Ace, have we really learned anything from lynching Zentor? Almost every mislynch you learn a tremendous amount of information... unless of course you pick some weak townie who's hardly playing and everyone piles on. There is going to be very little to discern scum from town on the zentor wagon(though I imagine scum were not the ones pushing hard for his lynch). Please don't try and undermine my saying something that you completely agree with. MrZentor provided an extremely easy wagon for scum to do whatever the hell they wanted with. VE is at the top of my list because: A) I find everyone voting for a mislynch day 1 suspicious B) I found VE's not voting particularly suspicious because he said that he would be fine lynching marv until your conveniently placed idea (convenient from his point of view) C) I still have no idea why he is so much more convinced that Sbrubbles is more scummy than phagga or marv or Ace D) His level of care for this game seems about 1/4 what I would expect from a town-VE I'm also highly considering Ace as scum because of his attempt to setup Bluelightz for tomorrow which I think is absolutely ridiculous. The only thing he has going for him, in my opinion, is the green check which you made on him. Zentor was an easy lynch, day 1 was an easy no-lynch, and Bluelightz is always an easy target for scum to throw suspicion on. I would also consider one of marv/phagga/sbrubbles scum, but their play needs to be scrutinized more closely before I can definitely place them. However, sbrubbles would be most likely to be town out of that group, marv/phagga is still a tossup for me. I wouldn't lynch yourself, prplhz, or Forumite. prplhz and Forumite because they went after MrZentor extremely hard the entire game and I don't think scum would do that because it looks terrible when he flips town. You, because you're trying hard to find scum... and the whole cop thing. That leaves Bluelightz and strongandbig. strongandbig's probably town and Bluelightz is actually putting in a lot of effort this game so I'd keep him around because if he's scum he'll crumble when his scumbuddy/ies start dying. Anything else? 
I disagree with this line of reasoning. Going after Zentor hard this game has been a very easy thing to do and him flipping town is almost irrelevant to this after the content of his posts.
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On April 27 2012 19:57 Radfield wrote:Actually, we know how the setup is derived: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9++If you accept that there is no mafia roleblocker, that leaves only 3 possible setups. If you further accept that there is no Serial Killer, that only leaves 1 possible setup. Agreed?
How is this helping us?
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On April 27 2012 17:32 phagga wrote:
Marv: From staying under the radar to blatantly sheeping Ace, he has pretty much not put any effort into finding scum. His case on Radfield centered around Rad defending Zentor. I know people say he is a good late game player, but that's also a great excuse for a scum to just do nothing the first 3 days until it's almost too late for town. Also, there is quite some material of every player to analyze, so I don't really see why he should not try to come up with is own reads by now.
That made me giggle, I'm not sure anyone said that actually ^^
I'd agree that I haven't done as much scumhunting as I'd like, I've been kinda stuck pointing out inconsistencies so far (while potentially useful, it's not really scumhunting). This game has been quite odd I feel with the no lynch day 1 followed by the practically unanimous Zentor lynch - which clogs up filters because it's quite easy to take stances on him and doesn't really indicate much imo. VE seems to come and go, often looking like he's finally ready to get involved before fading away again. People seem to be having a go at Ace for what is as far as I can see quite correct, if abrasive, logic.
That said, this evening I will do my best to try to make sense of this game and hopefully find a good read.
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On April 28 2012 00:13 Sbrubbles wrote:@Ace + Show Spoiler +On April 27 2012 10:55 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:35 Radfield wrote:First two are just you stating Zentor didn't care about defending himself, which he obviously didn't. No one can dispute that(though bluelightz actually tries ). The third has some points, though mainly just conjecture about Zentor's actions. The thing is, bluelightz defended Zentor long before his lynch was assured, and also actually responded to two of your posts that you linked. Eventually he just stops focusing on Zentor as his lynch was pretty much assured, and moves on to looking for scum. A completely appropriate and townie thing to do. He never just barges in and calls everyone stupid for voting an obvious townie, nor does he try to set himself up to look good after Zentor's death. He simply refuses to vote for someone he has a town read on. I don't get why you think that is scummy. Ok let me try this again. BL shows up "defending" Mr.Zentor's lynch long before it happens. However, he never talks about why Zentor must be Town. I don't see it in any of his posts so if they are there show me. It's literally "I dont think a Townie would do this" which isn't a real defense. If he REALLY thinks Zentor is innocent why would he not destroy any of the posts against him? He didn't. This is why I said he comes off as Scum knowing Zentor is innocent ahead of time. He looks like he's defending Zentor but he really isn't. The second bolded doesn't make him Town. "Looking for Scum" is subjective as even Scum can look for Scum. I don't think you are looking at the big picture here. Once again, look at the chain of events the way they went down. Once you showed up with a post on VE, BL shows up with a 19 minutes later with a post calling out a Scum team of VE, Forumite and phagga. His next post after that is calling out Sbrubbles as Scum. He even tries to throw me in there and says me and Sbrubbles must be talking in QT. That's 5 players in not even a quarter of a day that he calls out before Zentor is even flipped and you want to believe he was actually Scum hunting. Seriously this is very simple: If he truly believed Zentor was Town and he is also Town then why would he focus his efforts on calling out 5 other players instead of saving Zentor? He had ample time. He also should know that calling 5 players out isn't going to lead to all of them voting for whoever he thinks is Scum. This was a feigned attempt to look like he was defending a player and attempting to find Scum when he did neither. I feel like his town Zentor read was a gut read, and, frankly, Zentor himself wasn't resisting the lynch, so it was hard to defend him. I would argue that Bluelightz's intentions were simply to not let the discussion die out. Just because there's a good candidade is in place, it doesn't mean we should cease talking. I don't agree with his reads nor how he pushes them, but I don't think he's scum. He's being erratic, but, unlike Zentor, he's being much more accusative.
The last thing I think of when I look at Ace's play is erratic. Precisely the opposite in fact.
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On April 28 2012 00:28 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 00:21 marvellosity wrote:On April 28 2012 00:13 Sbrubbles wrote:@Ace + Show Spoiler +On April 27 2012 10:55 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:35 Radfield wrote:First two are just you stating Zentor didn't care about defending himself, which he obviously didn't. No one can dispute that(though bluelightz actually tries ). The third has some points, though mainly just conjecture about Zentor's actions. The thing is, bluelightz defended Zentor long before his lynch was assured, and also actually responded to two of your posts that you linked. Eventually he just stops focusing on Zentor as his lynch was pretty much assured, and moves on to looking for scum. A completely appropriate and townie thing to do. He never just barges in and calls everyone stupid for voting an obvious townie, nor does he try to set himself up to look good after Zentor's death. He simply refuses to vote for someone he has a town read on. I don't get why you think that is scummy. Ok let me try this again. BL shows up "defending" Mr.Zentor's lynch long before it happens. However, he never talks about why Zentor must be Town. I don't see it in any of his posts so if they are there show me. It's literally "I dont think a Townie would do this" which isn't a real defense. If he REALLY thinks Zentor is innocent why would he not destroy any of the posts against him? He didn't. This is why I said he comes off as Scum knowing Zentor is innocent ahead of time. He looks like he's defending Zentor but he really isn't. The second bolded doesn't make him Town. "Looking for Scum" is subjective as even Scum can look for Scum. I don't think you are looking at the big picture here. Once again, look at the chain of events the way they went down. Once you showed up with a post on VE, BL shows up with a 19 minutes later with a post calling out a Scum team of VE, Forumite and phagga. His next post after that is calling out Sbrubbles as Scum. He even tries to throw me in there and says me and Sbrubbles must be talking in QT. That's 5 players in not even a quarter of a day that he calls out before Zentor is even flipped and you want to believe he was actually Scum hunting. Seriously this is very simple: If he truly believed Zentor was Town and he is also Town then why would he focus his efforts on calling out 5 other players instead of saving Zentor? He had ample time. He also should know that calling 5 players out isn't going to lead to all of them voting for whoever he thinks is Scum. This was a feigned attempt to look like he was defending a player and attempting to find Scum when he did neither. I feel like his town Zentor read was a gut read, and, frankly, Zentor himself wasn't resisting the lynch, so it was hard to defend him. I would argue that Bluelightz's intentions were simply to not let the discussion die out. Just because there's a good candidade is in place, it doesn't mean we should cease talking. I don't agree with his reads nor how he pushes them, but I don't think he's scum. He's being erratic, but, unlike Zentor, he's being much more accusative. The last thing I think of when I look at Ace's play is erratic. Precisely the opposite in fact. I meant Bluelightz.
Shit. Well, there was me completely misreading your post above there. Apologies
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Quick question: anyone know which games Bluelightz played scum in of late please?
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On April 28 2012 09:47 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 09:35 Bluelightz wrote:Also, marvellosity is town, Scum wouldn't push scum  (therefore he is town.) Or WOULD he??? It's a huge can of WIFOM we're opening right now. Still, as I argued before, VE's behavior day 1 makes a shitton of sense if you consider he was protecting marv. Either way, gonna reread Marv right now.
It's not decisive one way or another, but bear in mind VisceraEyes did not know he was going to die tonight.
Great shot by Snarfs though, I'd got the impression VE was a decent scum candidate but I'm not sure I'd have had the balls to shoot him.
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The entire VE part of my argument is just ridiculous. All the voting on Day 1 is nonsense as VE didn't need to vote or not vote for me for me not to get lynched.
As mentioned above VE did not know he was going to die tonight, so why would he be making a case against me under the reasonable assumption that I would live? If we're playing percentages, the percentages are very much that VE is living through the night (how can he have expected to be shot?) and was setting up what he regarded as one of the easier lynches the next day.
My 'stepping in to answer for VE' is in fact - 'pointing out what you should have been able to read yourself, you bloody idiot, but here I am having to do basic comprehensive skills for you'.
I also thought it was quite clear that I never voted for Snarfs because I was certain of it, I voted for him because it was the best case I had read thus far. Thusly:
On April 24 2012 06:58 marvellosity wrote:
Although Snarfs only has one vote less than me, I'm going to unvote him and vote for the no-lynch. It has good grounding and with no-one being certain of anything it seems a decent option at this point.
##Unvote
##Vote: No Lynch
The entire VE connection case is simply weak sauce.
Radfield thinks I am town.
If you're going to make a case, please make a case that's made of something. The entire thrust of a case against me should be that I haven't managed to scumhunt, which is an accusation I can't easily brush away. Your case however is easily brushed away based on weak circumstance and connection.
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EBWOP: under the reasonable assumption he would live, in para 2
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EPT
