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TL Mafia 'Area' LIII
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layabout
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layabout
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We do need some sort of talking point however. I suggest we all say what we think vigilantes should do given the setup. I think that if they do shoot they should claim their shot well in advance to give a tracker the chance to track them. This would make it extremely risky for mafia to claim vigilante. | ||
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On April 21 2012 09:29 johnnywup wrote: We're assuming there even is a vig. No we aren't. I am asking a hypothetical. "What should One shot Vigilante* death millers do?" + Show Spoiler [*] + One-shot Vigilante Death Miller: You may Night Kill a player once per game. You flip Godfather on death. It's an interesting mechanic that could be very anti town. The mafia might try to exploit it with claims. By discussing it we can ensure that if there is a Vig out there they will know what the best thing to do is. If there isn't well i suppose we will have used up time that could have been spent insulting each other or trying to lynch a player for completely arbitrary or downright stupid reasons. | ||
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On April 21 2012 09:38 johnnywup wrote: you said it in a matter-of-fact way. you said what they should do, which makes it seem like you think there is definitely a vig. so I wanted to clarify that there might not be one at all. Rather than commenting on what it "seems like I think" why don't you look at what I did in say and respond to it? | ||
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On April 21 2012 09:42 VisceraEyes wrote: I want to lynch any Vig claims. One less night-kill immune GF if he's fake-claiming, and one less possible townie death due to vig misfire imoimo So you support us not knowing the alignment of the player we lynch. You also support not using KP in town hands. VE as far as i am aware, vigilante shots hit mafia more often than lynches do. | ||
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How should town handle such a beast? lol | ||
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On April 21 2012 11:33 PaqMan wrote: ^Meaning it's impossible to have more than 3 vigs ![[image loading]](http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/255/716/c98.gif) Isn't it strange that both VE and gonzaw try to argue that we should/shouldn't do something because a town blue might decide to do the most anti-town move possible? On April 21 2012 11:05 gonzaw wrote: + Show Spoiler [snip] + Okay, one more thing and I'll stop posting now (just want to get everything out in the open as soon as possible) On April 21 2012 10:55 johnnywup wrote: it's actually in scums best interest to keep millervigs alive, as they create so much confusion which is usually scums job. All scum would have to do is make sure the vigs are on the wrong track. So because of this VE's plan of killing all vig's isn't a bad idea. But no vig's would ever claim under it. I think the best course of action is lynching any vig claims the day after, if they miss their shot. Scum wouldn't ever claim if we make a rule out of that. Also this isn't continuous speculation, this is discussing the game. Don't like it? Too bad. It's not like we can avoid this topic. It's important to the game so we talk about it. VE's plan is to kill all claimed vigs. This means that no real vig will claim, and no scum will fake-claim either. So what happens if we lynch someone and he flips GF then? What info would you get in that case? He could be either vig or GF and we don't know since no vig or GF would have claimed (since they would have been instantly lynched). Imagine it's LYLO, we are trying to lynch someone, and he claims vig. What do we do? Do we follow the "lynch all vigs" rule too? But if he is indeed vig we would lose, so what to do? + Show Spoiler [snip] + If we follow our plan, we will know beforehand that there are certain players whose flip won't tell us anything (the claimed vigs, assuming no Goons claim). We will know what to do with that, we can prepare. We can also use other claimed vigs to try and shoot him at night instead. The most important thing is that if vigs claim beforehand, there will be less chaos than if they claimed right before getting lynched, or they were lynched and flipped GF And remember, if there's chaos scum can do whatever the hell they want. If someone claims vig right before being lynched the chaos created basically gives scum the reins to do what they want (either lynch that vig, or lynch someone else, or NL, etc) This is gonzaw playing on your fears in the hopes that you lack basic critical thinking skills. iI we decide to lynch all vigilante claims then any vigilante capable of using a keyboard should be smart enough to know that they should not claim because doing so would automatically result in their death and a loss. + Show Spoiler [This bit doesn't read well] + He is also arguing that we would be in trouble if a fairly unlikely hypothetical occurs and then somebody does something extremely unlikely. The result is him arguing that we should act based upon something that should never happen and is highly unlikely to happen anyway. +VE's post was mostly arguing that a town jailkeeper might intentionally act against town's interests. Both of these players should realise that these arguments should have no place here. I don't know if anybody has mentioned it but mafia shots resolve before vig shots so mafia could kill the vig and stop the shot. Vigilante shoots after the Goon I think the best strategy should be that vigilantes only claim if their shot does not go through or if they have just shot a goon. Otherwise no claims. This mean that the only potential confusion arises if they are lynched* but we can deal with that. + Show Spoiler [*] + if they are shot at night and flip they are obviously not bulletproof godfathers | ||
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layabout
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On April 21 2012 21:40 Ottoxlol wrote: lay Gonzaw's plan is to out our vigs in exchange for no fakeclaims. We already discussed why scum shouldnt in their right mind fake-claim if we do it his way. I think this trade can be well worth it, what do you think? My way produces nearly the same benefit but without all of the risks. I say nearly because mafia could claim that they were a vig that hit a godfather. | ||
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On April 21 2012 22:01 Ottoxlol wrote: So basically your way doesnt produce the same benefit, without all of the risks :D Yes. Which makes it better. But if we decide if vigilante's should claim and when then we close down options for scum. If we agree that there should be no claims at all then that should also eliminate fake claims but it would also have none of the risks. I am saying that if you shoot a goon then you might as well claim. Claiming would confirm yourself (with no counter claim). With more than 1 claim it would then become more complicated, as we would likely lynch both players. In the unlikely even that there are two vigilantes in the game who both shoot the same target who then flips goon then it would present us with "trouble". I think that we need to agree to no claims or specific situations for claims like if you just shot a goon. Consider also that if 1 or more vigilantes out themselves then we will all know that one of the blues isn't a tracker or a jailkeeper. That information could help scum but it is of no use to vt's. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + I know how much we love the 3rd and 4th person to jump on an opinion and now that he knows people will agree with him, he can be firm in his assertion Because people are giving opinions there will inevitably be people who give opinions that other already have. Paqman was the 2nd to say that vigilantes should not claim + Show Spoiler + (after VE, johnny also seems to support the idea but didn't take this stance Sentinel doesn't count because he didn't read the OP and his opinion cannot have had much grounding). + Show Spoiler + Interestingly filmsy opinion again, to me this just feels like he has more information than I do Paqman's comment is reasonable. VE's vote is dependent on a particular interpretation of the use of the word "our". Nobody should be convinced by it!Not being convinced is reasonable. Wanting to see how a player reacts to an accusation before judging them is reasonable I am wondering how mattchew ended up "feeling" like this comment in any way indicated that Paqman had more information than him. + Show Spoiler + just stupid question without content when theres already stuff being discussed, isnt paying attention to where threads going + Show Spoiler + I would argue that not reading a post but responding to it anyway shows that you are not being careful about what you post. It shows a lack of fear from somebody with nothing to hide. Scum are the ones that pay careful attention to the game mechanics. Put simply, not reading the thread but posting whatever the fuck you want is a town trait. | ||
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Mattchew often posts with lots of one-line fluff as town Game of thrones mafia ##Vote marvellosity get posting or die check out the + Show Spoiler [case] + | ||
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I think he is attached to the idea that you are scum and is not looking at your posts objectively. I think his case is poor but there isn't exactly a lot to go on and i think it was genuine. I think he is trying to push his read because he resolved to it previously here: On April 05 2012 12:00 Mattchew wrote: At any rate he appears to be trying to find scum and is a bad lynch target day1.my only 2 reads on day 1 were right. I am just a pussy and didn't push them TT... How the fuck did xatalos survive | ||
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layabout
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Any thoughts on marvellosity paqman or mattchew? we need Risen to rise and get posting we need ghost 403 to de-cloak we need St.Daniel to grace us with his presence we need Janaan to get out of bed we need slOosh to stop fapping to Beethoven* we need BroodkingEXE to execute som scum for us we need Bill Murray to get his head in the game we need Zephirrd to tell you guys to stop posting shit we need layabout to | ||
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Sorry it isn't much of a pun. | ||
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I think marvel looks bad because he was around in the first couple of hours of the game, he was willing to make comments in the thread but he was unwilling to share an opinion. Every player should have an opinion about what is best, and the only players who would fear to share them are mafia, since telling and possibly helping town to do what you think is best for town is not in your best interests. | ||
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On April 22 2012 02:33 Risen wrote: What do you mean? The only thing I can think of this meaning is mt assuming we have vigis. Even then, he doesn't explicitly state we have vigis, he just directs them if we do whats with all of the "mt" 's? . By directing jk away from targets and the vigis you give scum a potential three kill night. They can kill the vig, another person, and then if the vigi target is town they get to laugh at us. The OP says that goon shoot's before vig. If the mafia shoot the vig before the vig shoots then the vig will not be able to shoot a townie so only the big would die. If the other hit went through then we would have 2 dead players not 3. | ||
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On April 22 2012 02:58 Risen wrote: Oh, alright. I had read the vigi shot being refunded, but didn't apply that to them not shooting if they were killed. And wtf? Where the fuck do you get me targeting ANYONE right now? Do you see me voting any "lurkers"? Did I point any out? No. I didn't. Why didn't I? Because I know how early it is in the game. Take your useless shit somewhere else layabout. Why are you so aggressive? I died in GoT mafia not only because of you but because players directed people towards the lurkers. That mislynch was the beginning of the end and it was all because people jumped on lurkers early on and got it into their heads that those players were scummy before they were posting. You seemed to understand the dangers of focusing on lurkers then + Show Spoiler + On March 22 2012 04:35 Risen wrote: I'm going to say we need to wait a bit more before calling people lurkers. I woke up, posted a bit and then went to class. Some people have jobs and shiz where they wouldn't be able to respond until later today (like 6-8 hours) But now you are defending marvel on the basis that he posted a bit at the start, he was in the thread actively lurking and he deserves our attention. On April 22 2012 02:28 Risen wrote: I don't get your reasoning mt or anyone else's voting for marvel. He's posting and it's very early day 1. There isn't that much to go off of so I don't think he's scummy. I hate lurkers, they always fuck us and it isn't pro-town at all. I'd rather not lynch someone who's here day 1. Posting is pro-town and I don't think we should be scaring people away from posting day 1 bc it just gives people an excuse to be worthless If we can't kill anybody that posts even a little bit then we are are left to kill lurkers. You are directing us to kill lurkers which at the moment is plain silly because it's a good half of the playerbase. | ||
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On April 22 2012 02:58 Risen wrote: Oh, alright. I had read the vigi shot being refunded, but didn't apply that to them not shooting if they were killed. And wtf? Where the fuck do you get me targeting ANYONE right now? Do you see me voting any "lurkers"? Did I point any out? No. I didn't. Why didn't I? Because I know how early it is in the game. Take your useless shit somewhere else layabout. In this game "don't kill anyone active" is equivalent to "kill no one or kill someone inactive" So you are directing us to kill inactives. You can take you vote off me now. And apologise for swearing. | ||
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layabout
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can you at least make an effort to understand what i am saying rather than throwing away you vote. | ||
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layabout
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He flipped town in the end but he did manage to do a lot of damage on the way. So i don't think he is off. I think he might be town. | ||
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##unvote marvellosity BH's case was good when you consider how early on it was posted. The case was centred around the idea that marvellosity was actively lurking (at the beginning of the game. Marvellosity is no longer actively lurking I think that marvellosity has tried to be more open and has reacted to BH's increasingly ridiculous pressure in a very town like way. This BM wagon doesn't appear to have any grounding. It is a mindless vote on a lurker, the sort that usually hits town and is easy for scum to hop onto. If you are on that wagon please consider that there are definitely town lurkers and if you pick one at random you are likely to pick town. If somebody else picks a lurker and you support them then there is not only the chance that they will pick town by chance but the chance that they are scum and they are deliberately picking tow. Thirdly, The only reason to not vote for VisceraEyes is the following: You believe that he is telling the truth about his claim. If you believe that then you also have to believe that VisceraEyes would make that appalling move as the real town Jailkeeper. | ||
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On April 22 2012 22:38 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm frustrated because rather than read my posts, you'd rather just vote for me because someone else told you "I'm better than this." I disagreed with gonzaw's plan because it demanded cooperation of ALL of the town power roles. It ties up THE ENTIRE TOWN FORCE in directing vigs (which are one-shot by the way) toward their one target each in the hopes of killing one scum each (if town is lucky). A mass-claim would be viable if the vigs weren't 1-shot, but they are. So no, I don't agree with using MY role according to town's wishes because at this point, there's no way to know if town sentiment is being swayed by scum. Since I know my own alignment, I'm going to trust my own judgement on how to use my power. Now, you disagree with the manner in which I claimed. Cool story bro. I don't care. If you want to lynch me for claiming a town PR then go for it - you're not the only person on TL who feels like D1 claims are BS. BC comes to mind - he insta-lynches D1 claims. I don't care about that either. I care about town winning - and if you lynch me and I flip JK, you're going to take my suspicions more seriously because you know my alignment. And town will win. And vicariously, I will win. So do what you wanna do ottox. As of right now, I'm beyond caring. I've told you who's scum. Either vote with me today or vote in my name tomorrow after I flip - either way, I get to win. Why did you claim in response to a plan that received more negative feedback than good, that was no longer being discussed and had next to no chance of being implemented? The only cooperation that would have be needed would be for the jailkeeper to not act on two specific players, that really is not a lot to ask, especially when interfering would cause confusion. What's more you don't even seem to understand the goal of the plan which was to prevent fake vig claims. You later pretend that you claimed because "I die N1 in almost every game I play in." While it's true that scum are less likely to kill me with votes on me, you've never played a game with me and you don't know how often I die N1. I die N1 in almost every game I play in. Now, here's a little secret: by claiming and having votes on me, I actually expect to live the night now so that scum can attempt to push me tomorrow. This is fine and expected - but it's a bridge I'll cross when I get to it. Now i have played quite a few games with you and this claim seemed off so i checked, and it is! + Show Spoiler + you replaced into space station during the night and were shot but you had a vet item and survived-town you died night 3 in bastard - SK you were in lynched day2 in TL mafia LI which ended the game - mafia you died on day1 in Death Factory 2 mafia after you took a big risk and ended up being killed by a hidden mechanic because of that - town you were killed night 1 in the sum of all fears mafia - town you were killed night 1 in jubjub mafia- town you lived to the end in C9++ mafia- town you lived to the end in storm mafia- SK So you have died night one in 2/7 games you have been shot by mafia in 3/7 either way you are lying. If you disagree feel free to go back further. Also, the notion of claiming you role for no reason to become a viable lynch target, so that mafia will not hit you at night is dumb on so many levels. Claiming a town power role in response to a case against you when you have 3 votes (BM marv slOosh) is most definately a move. | ||
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On April 22 2012 23:48 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Unvote: Bill Murray ##Vote: VisceraEyes For anyone concerned about me "playing to my win-condition", D1 discussion is ruined and I can accept my part in that. Lynch me, flip me, and do what you will with the information. You'll win with it. And therefor, I'll win. I'm playing to my win-condition. gg They are criticising me..... better throw a tantrum! + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p5k7N.png) | ||
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On April 23 2012 00:03 VisceraEyes wrote: Not a tantrum - just not interested in defending myself further. If anyone wants to listen to reason I can feasibly get down on a scum lynch, but I'm not going to waste any more time defending myself when it's useless. But you know, continue to be a jerk about it laya...that's about par for the course where you're concerned. Why should i vote for anyone else when you have made a nonsensical claim and have not responded to any of my criticisms called me scum, told me to "Fuck off", martyred yourself and refused to further defend yourself. + Show Spoiler [Also] + If you are a jail keeper then you cannot even confirm you power to the thread since Players will not be notified if they are jailed. | ||
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On April 23 2012 01:05 Mattchew wrote: we should lynch BM cause he claimed scum in thread by ninja voting he did not claim scum in the thread. | ||
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A Bill Murray lynch is easy to hop on and that is for a good reason. He seemed eager to play before the game starts but he has done nothing to show that he even cares about town winning. The problem with VE is that lynching him is high risk, but since his reaction to questionng has been to martyr himself i think that right now we should take that risk. | ||
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On April 23 2012 02:11 PaqMan wrote: And what if Bill Murray is a GF? What should our vigi do after BM is shot but doesn't die? There is no need to worry about that now, it isn't helpful. | ||
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We don't need another candidate right now. No doubt there are people that will not be back again before the deadline and there are people (Europeans) that will only be around for a few more hours. We need to consolidate our votes. We have two candidates in "danger": ViceraEyes who has 6 votes - one of which is him so that's only really 5 votes + Show Spoiler + slOosh marvellosity Bill Murray Ottoxlol layabout VisceraEyes BillMurruay who has 4 votes + Show Spoiler + Mattchew Janaan St. Daniel johnnywup We now have two people with two votes that stand an outside chance of being lynched Risen + Show Spoiler + gonzaw Mementoss marvellosity + Show Spoiler + BlazingJitsu BroodKingEXE We also have 4 players with a single vote Mattchew + Show Spoiler + PaqMan layabout + Show Spoiler + Risen +the OMGUS twin's [UoN]Sentinel he didn't change his vote to VE in the thread + Show Spoiler + ghost_403 ghost_403 + Show Spoiler + [UoN]Sentinel Anybody voting for somebody that stands no chance of being lynched needs to switch their vote. If the number of players on the leading candidates are so small then we as a town will have wasted our numbers advantage and given mafia the opportunity to control the lynch. | ||
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On April 23 2012 03:32 Mementoss wrote: The more I think of it, the more I agree and like Gonzaws points on why lynching Risen is better than VE or BM. VE very well could be JK, his claim doesn't make sense either side. If we don't lynch him and his claim is true, scum will most likely take care of him either tonight or the next night. Maybe by then he can somehow prove his claim. I think its best to wait it out. Worse case by lynching him we take out our own blue. Let mafia waste KP on that. BM should be vigged if we have a vig, claim the shot before you shoot. If he doesn't die, We know that, either the shooter or BM is GF. Hes lurking and acting scummy, but hard to tell cause he has like 3 posts. Lynching him doesn't tell us anything if hes town, shooting him is the better option. Also I like gonzaws case on Risen. His posts lack meaning and consistency. He has a hard time to commiting to anything and his emotions are all over the place. Im happy with a Risen lynch over the other two. Risen looks scummy, and the other two cases will hopefully work themselves out with night actions/ VE somehow confirms his claim then gets killed by mafia KP. ##Unvote: VisceraEyes ##Vote: Risen If we don't lynch him and his claim is true, scum will most likely take care of him either tonight or the next night. If VE was right about anything it's that he is not a good shot for mafia. Saying let's not lynch this guy that people are willing to lynch because if he is town the mafia will kill him for us is crazy. If VE is town they his a a walking mislynch tying his own noose. Since mafia's greatest threat is the lynch, townies that might get mislynched are townies that the mafia benefit from keep alive.Maybe by then he can somehow prove his claim Please come up with a scenario in which this could happen. I can't think of one. If he doesn't die, We know that, either the shooter or BM is GF. no we don't (cough jailkeeper or a liar cough ) Lynching him doesn't tell us anything if hes town, shooting him is the better option. wtf?who is lynching him for information? point them out so that we can all say that you never lynch for information because that is dumb, you lynch to hit scum. I don't get this "I want us to vig BM not lynch him" the lynch is reliable but a vig shot in a game that might not have vigi's could have multiple Jailkeepers and has 2 bulletproof mafia is not garanteed to get us a flip. | ||
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On April 23 2012 04:39 Mementoss wrote: 1]Wat. Why wouldn't mafia wanna kill the JK? They probably won't tonight. But they eventually will have to. You really think they are going to leave a potential JK alive all game? If he can't prove his claim/ mafia doesn't kill him we can eventually lynchhim. 2]He can prove his claim by JKin a person and if we have a tracker tracks him, then if we have a tracker they can correctly say he did. Or if he happens to JK someone that was going to be hit by mafia and successfully saves him, aka only 1 KP goes through. I think your just being ignorant with this statment lol. 3]What JK is going to JK BM? None. None that want town to win. Also, as town why would you lie? You claim your shot before hand and then if it doesn't go through on BM its either a fake claim or GF. Lynch them both and we get 1 for 1. No reason for vig to lie at all. Also can you really tell someone is scum off of 3 lines of post/ action? I doubt it. Thats why it seems like a complete guess if hes scum or not. That is why he is a good vig shot. Lets lynch someone with the best case against them that is most likely to flip scum. 1]>insert didn't read gif< you ask me a question in response to something which answer that very question. My point is that scum will be in no hurry to kill VE if he is a Jailkeeper, because they can quite easily get him mislynched which protects them and because they can legitimately call him out for being scummy and because attention on him is attention that isn't on them. 2]Oh right. We can prove his claim if somebody whos role we cannot verify without killing them claims tracker and tells us that he visited them. Nobody is confirmed until they flip. we can only verify that he visits somebody if a player tells us he visited them and then flips tracker. We then know he visited them. We cannot know if he protected them until we know for certain that the player he visited was not a Godfather and was not visited by a jailkeeper, because it is still possible that he is a goon or a vig. Even then it would still be possible (but pants on head retarded) that he is a tracker. 3]My point is that if he does not die after somebody claims to have shot him there are a number of possibilities.You said that if he didn't die we would know that either the shooter of BM was a Godfather. But not only would we not know but we have a player that claimed uncooperative jailkeeper. If you were a jailkeeper with a townread on BM would you let him get shot? Probably not. Well what if a vig claims a shot on a godfather? If the mafia kill him then there should be no vig shot and we cannot infer anything about the target. You insisted that we don't lynch BM but vig him instead. I have explained why we cannot rely on vigi's to kill players for us. If you believe that as town you shouldn't lie and you believe that VE and Johnny are scumbuddies then i think your vote is on the wrong person | ||
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On April 23 2012 05:06 johnnywup wrote: I wouldn't worry about me MG. I'm always sheepy unfortunately. Does that mean I'm scum? No. It just means I'm bad and can't find arguments myself easily. But yeah, BM definitely is scummy in that he's here but he's not posting...but we won't get any information out of lynching him, so a vig shot would be better for him, like others said. Zephirdd looks scummy as hell though. + Show Spoiler + Zephirdd has hardly any posts so this should be a simple case. All of which are scummy. On April 21 2012 12:58 Zephirdd wrote: /confirm Usually millers have to claim as soon as they realize they are millers; However in this case the millers are also vigilantes, and we can't really protect them without RBing them. I also will see a problem when, for example, one person claims vigilante; as in, the GFs didn't claim. Suddenly all the info we got from these "claims" is that our only vigilante is outed and mafia got a target on his head. gonzaw didn't seem to care about this one possibility; I don't like that. I didn't read much past page 10 tho, and gotta go to sleep and go into my inactive mode(as I said before the game). That's all. ~cya Here, let me provide you information that you already know! On April 22 2012 06:10 Zephirdd wrote: k, too much to catch up on, too little time. I see gonzaw arrived a reasonable way to "plan" vigilantes here. That is, a vigilante should just play as a normal vigi. I still can't be sure who I should vote. I see marvellosity is leading the votecount, can someone provide me a link to a case of his, or even a page where I can find it? I know it's silly to ask for that, but I am really busy atm and as much as I can condense what is happening, the easier it will be to catch up. I promise I'll do better day2 onwards Indecisive, not scumhunting, doesn't want to put in effort to help town (even though he's busy he should be able to look for at least that), apologetic about his inactivity. all simple scum tells. I'm busy I'm busy, please, try make more excuses. On April 23 2012 00:17 Zephirdd wrote: God damnit layabout. I was about to post how VE's claim made sense and how he was town, but then you convince me the opposite. Geez. And this martyring post from VE only makes sense from two PoVs: - He really is a JK and he will let town use his flip information to deal with what happened during the day - He is scum trying to sound like that. Also, right now, I see no reason to lynch Bill Murray - he should be vigged, not lynched if he doesn't contribute soon. VE, what is your stance on gonzaw, especially after his series of (Seemingly) drunk posts? Also, please make the case against the certain scum you are talking about. Should you flip JK, we got something solid to work from. In fact, I'll take you are claiming scum if you don't do that. this post is just ridiculous. layabouts post seemingly made him drop all of his opinions and run the opposite direction in order to stay with the crowd. gives information we've already taken into account. asks questions and asks ve to make a case when he still hasnt made any of his opinions known besides that he thinks ve may be scum because he claimed. wow what an original opinion he arrived at. then goes on to say VE is scum if he doesnt comply with his own wishes...lol. On April 23 2012 02:07 Zephirdd wrote: Gonzaw, please tell me why should we lynch risen over VE right now. There was a post RIGHT before that that zephirdd was referring to...which answered that question. If he saw the post, why didn't he read unless he's trying to ask questions to fit in? On April 23 2012 02:13 Zephirdd wrote: I thought it was common sense that vigis claim their shot beforehand in order to allow JKs to coordinate themselves and especially because scum shouldnt NK a vigilante.. okay thats great but do you have anything new to add? a scum case? because as far as I'm concerned you're not doing anything pro-town at all. this post just makes himself look confused or smart or whatever in order to fit in. just ridiculous. ##unvote ##vote zephirdd you put your vote on a real candidate now and stop trying to spread confusion | ||
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@People that unvoted VE why would you unvote a player that knows better than to do this as town but did it anyway: On April 22 2012 23:48 VisceraEyes wrote: K this game is no longer interesting to me. I'm not interested in defending myself. ##Unvote: Bill Murray ##Vote: VisceraEyes For anyone concerned about me "playing to my win-condition", D1 discussion is ruined and I can accept my part in that. Lynch me, flip me, and do what you will with the information. You'll win with it. And therefor, I'll win. I'm playing to my win-condition. gg | ||
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On April 23 2012 05:17 Mementoss wrote: EBWOP: Last minute claims would solve this though. If they die, we know the shot didn't go through. If not we can realize that they are either lying or BM is GF. Then we can still lynch into them and go 1 for 1. So I retract what I said. Also JK is not going to JK BM. I don't think anyone has a "good" town -read on him as you say. Again a large part of my point is that you were telling us that we could draw certain conclusions when in fact we could not. | ||
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On April 23 2012 05:25 Mementoss wrote: Alright maybe I am misunderstanding you on multiple occasions. But Im pretty sure WE CAN draw conclusions from this. Im pretty sure its agreed on. Ill go through the situations: 1. Vig last minute claims and shoots. He dies. His shot didn't go through. Inconclusive. 2. Vig last minute claims and shoots. The other person comes up town. Cause of the claim and extra KP we can assume he isn't lieing and is town. 3. Vig last minute claims and shoots. The other person doesn't die. We lynch into them, because either a) The shot hit a GF or was faked. So we lynch them first. Then if they don't flip GF the other person is lying, and we lynch them and they flip GF. b) The target was JK'd. But you should be able to pick a target that you know won't be JK'd so we can ignore that. you wrote this: If he doesn't die, We know that, either the shooter or BM is GF. I pointed out that this was incorrect. I think you have acknowledged it on some level. So can you put some of your newfound effort into looking at the play of all the players yo are willing to lynch? | ||
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On April 23 2012 05:33 Risen wrote: Honestly johnnywup is my biggest scumread atm Pac. I have no idea why he thinks forwarding another lynch candidate at the last second is a good idea, and it just shits up the thread. Do we take the case against him seriously? Do we try and organize everyone to swap their votes over to zeph even though no one else has mentioned zeph as a serious candidate thus far? We can't do that, we don't have the time. I know I was against it before, but I don't see how marvel could be pushing a lynch on VE right now. We can't lynch our claimed JK. It's been stated in the thread but I'll state it again. You don't lynch a claimed doctor, and we shouldn't lynch the closest thing we have to a doctor. Is it possible VE is lying? Yup. He might be lying and be a vigi, or a tracker, or scum, or vanilla. Doesn't matter. The only shitty thing is that the person who is jailed doesn't know they were jailed, so I don't know how to confirm his claim. Regardless, a vote on VE is stupid. It's just like everyone who voted for me when I claimed a guaranteed sane detective with a red check. Only an idiot would vote for said blue unless it was LYLO. It's applicable here. We can't lynch someone who claims such a powerful blue role right now. Is it a shitty claim? Yeah. I don't think it was smart, but we have to roll with it now that it's in the open. Any trackers watch him, I guess. I'm voting marvel. Pre-EBWOP I just looked at the voting thread prior to hitting post. What the hell is going on? How can you lynch a claimed blue? This is so stupid. If need be I'll vote BM b/c I'm all for lynching someone who's being useless, but for now my vote is resting on marvel. ##vote marvellosity You are aware that if you act like this then mafia are 100% safe from your vote? The time you were lynched it was also because you had been shitting up the thread for days and nobody trusted you. Plus when you flipped they had a confirmed red check, so the loss was not so bad. The situations are not particularly comparable. This is far more like day1 of storm mafia. | ||
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If you believe that he is lying then there is next to no chance that he is town and lynching him is in town's best interests. | ||
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On April 23 2012 06:29 Risen wrote: I haven't even placed my vote on marv yet >.> It is my intention to do so, though. Everyone on VE should be shot/lynched. I'll vote for anyone on him. Only an idiot would vote for VE and we're better off with all of them dead. That includes VE | ||
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On April 23 2012 07:32 Risen wrote: EBWOP: I can't do this. I'm done. Get off VE. Get onto whoever you want. I don't know why wbg can direct people so well posting so little and I'm screaming in the thread and no one does anything. It's because nobody trusts you or your judgement, partly because of what you are saying and partly because of the way you are saying it. You call people stupid and make very little effort to try to understand their point of view, and you act stubbornly and unhelpfully. I think we should kill VE. BM is an acceptable lynch. I think risen is just being himself and is probably town. | ||
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VE also isn't playing with his typical confidence. He says he doesn't care about his role because it doesn't help us find scum. He says that logic and reasoning help us find scum. He dismisses the reasoning presented against him by claiming his role whch does not align with this "logic and reasoning first" approach. He then goes on to provide us with no logic or reasoning to explain his reads and quits. | ||
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On April 23 2012 08:01 BlazingJitsu wrote: It is not pro-town play, but it is typical VE play as town. He did something similar in SOAF IIRC. -Blazinghand I think he was co-hosting that game Gonna go sleep. If you are afraid of killing VE then kill BM, neither of them care about the game anyway. | ||
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On April 23 2012 08:03 layabout wrote: Gonna go sleep. If you are afraid of killing VE then kill BM, neither of them care about the game anyway. | ||
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I think that it was irresponsible for Blazinghand to wait so long to pull his head out of marv's ass to tell us that VE had done this before, since that is super-fucking-relevant to judging his alignment, and by the time he pointed it out there were very few people left to read it or change their vote. He is also lording the fact that he made the call over us and trying to get us to trust him. BH was around for hours before the lynch when we were all here and he just tunnelled marv and ignored VE. I think you guys need to stop calling for vigi's to shoot so early because in this set-up a vigilante that shoots night1 knowing that they are aiming for 2/4 mafia and only 2/18 players in the game, the longer the game goes better the chance of the shot, also with only 1 shot you would have to be very confident or very foolish to shoot today or even tomorrow in this set-up. | ||
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On April 24 2012 04:37 Mementoss wrote: The bolded part is ridiculous. No, you were not correct given the information you had. Just admit you were wrong, and you were mis-using logic/sheeping/tunnelling into VE, which ultimately lead to you helping scum kill one of our blue roles. It bothered me that no-one voting VE yesterday cause answer the question I posed, "Why would VE do this as scum?". Admit you were wrong, re-read his filter, learn from your mistakes. Tryimg to make yourself look good after you were the one pushing hardest for a majority of the day against anyone who made good points about why to not lynch VE/why VE was probably telling the truth? (Against me and Risen later in the day) However, despite all this I've thought about it, and I think you were just geniunely mistaken and wrong. I don't think a scum, would push so hard all day with the amount of detail you did to lynching VE, knowing that he would flip blue. As of now I don't have any particulary good scum reads, I need to review the thread now knowing the flip. But I feel like Mattchew is probably town, and so is Risen, based on their actions prior to the lynch. If i was using "mis-logic" please point it out so me. VE is the asshat that decided to quit playing rather than explain himself or try to help us. If you think that BH is one of the people that made good points about why not to lynch VE then ask yourself why he waited until the last hour when it would have no impact instead of when it would have made a difference. When he entered the thread yesterday (when people were here) he promised to talk about VE's claim. Remember that this is before VE's ass-retarded roleclaim (which I'll get to in a moment) He looks at marv's vote for VE but avoid's giving us any of his own thoughts on VE. He then waits until an hour before the lynch (when a small number of us were here) to tell us that VE has done this before and that we shouldn't vote for him. Once VE flips he tells us about how obvious it was to him and how he knew VE was town the whole time. It should have been obvious that VE was playing crappy town play. It was obvious to me. It was obvious to Risen. In fact, it's interesting how obvious it was to people who put any decent thought into it or were intelligent, thoughtful people, that this was the case. It's as if he had no interest in stopping us lynching VE but he did have an interest in trying make himself look good and cast suspicion on others. He has been tunnelling marv to get out of looking for scum, he has come up with increasingly contrived reasons to continue to tunnel him and he is making all of his other accusations on the basis that marv is scum. | ||
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- layabout BH is trying to get town cred from the lynch even though he ignored VE until it was too late for him to stop the lynch. We should lynch BlazingJitsu tomorrow. If St. Daniel is posting in another game but not this one even though this started first then there must be a reason for this. It seems likely that this reason is that he rolled scum and is frightened to post. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On April 22 2012 23:35 Mementoss wrote: + Show Spoiler [snip] + Your lack of focus not only annoys me but is suspicious, you can't make up your mind or stick to anything. Lets go through this for you: -Lets Lynch Gonzaw (in this fashion FOR THE TOWN LYNCH GONZAW IM SURE HES SCUM) -Lets Lynch Bill Murray ( in the same fashion) Then this: On April 22 2012 13:52 VisceraEyes wrote: Do we lynch BM or Mattchew? This is the first time you've even mentioned Mattchew in your filter since your first joke vote. You give no reasoning behind the Mattchew suspicion at all. Then this: On April 22 2012 22:06 VisceraEyes wrote: The scum are Bill Murray, gonzaw, MidnightGladius, layabout as far as I can see. I want to kill BM first. Where'd Mattchew go? Now this: On April 22 2012 23:15 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm not actually - I don't think I'm any better that anyone else - only slightly more experienced. I'm trying to use reason as a defense, but it's not really working. Anyway, I'd like to hear EVERYONE'S thoughts on the BH/Jitsu hydra please. As hyperactive as they were pre-game, they should have been in here freaking out by now. I actually feel like I want to lynch BH/Jitsu more than BM at this point. What do you guys think? Now you want to lynch BJ, even though they weren't on your scum team just a few posts earlier and you never even mentioned them other than, they should be all over my claim. They should be posting is your only reasoning against them. Not being in the thread at a particular time is not a case sorry to say. This is also very relevant to your scum meta in LI, odd claims, massive suspicion switches, can't keep your stories straight or keep your head on straight for that matter. You keep mentioning things such as after I flip you'll be sorry and such. As well as saying things like "THIS IS TOWNS BEST OPTION THEY WILL FLIP SCUM FOR SURE!" Your play is ridiculous to say the least. Your the most scummy in my mind right now. Unvote: marvellosity Vote: VisceraEyes + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 03:32 Mementoss wrote: + Show Spoiler [snip] + The more I think of it, the more I agree and like Gonzaws points on why lynching Risen is better than VE or BM. VE very well could be JK, his claim doesn't make sense either side. If we don't lynch him and his claim is true, scum will most likely take care of him either tonight or the next night. Maybe by then he can somehow prove his claim. I think its best to wait it out. Worse case by lynching him we take out our own blue. Let mafia waste KP on that. BM should be vigged if we have a vig, claim the shot before you shoot. If he doesn't die, We know that, either the shooter or BM is GF. Hes lurking and acting scummy, but hard to tell cause he has like 3 posts. Lynching him doesn't tell us anything if hes town, shooting him is the better option. Also I like gonzaws case on Risen. His posts lack meaning and consistency. He has a hard time to commiting to anything and his emotions are all over the place. Im happy with a Risen lynch over the other two. Risen looks scummy, and the other two cases will hopefully work themselves out with night actions/ VE somehow confirms his claim then gets killed by mafia KP. ##Unvote: VisceraEyes ##Vote: Risen + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 08:11 Mementoss wrote: Why are we lynching a JK cause hes bad again? [image blocked] + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 08:20 Mementoss wrote: I would also vote BM. I am beginning to think Marv is town, and since I agree with the defensive stance on VE risen took, it kinda makes me think hes town. If he was scum, he woulda just let VE die, and vote VE like a sheep. | ||
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On April 24 2012 07:41 johnnywup wrote: Reffering to St.Daniel: Maybe he rolled VT and got bored this game. Who knows. (PS I do think he's scum but him posting more in another game isn't necessarily a tell) One thing I do know is you were pushing the VE lynch and I don't think you're in the position to try and lynch someone who opposed it. Hmmm? Since when did being on a mislynch make a players opinion less valuable? There 4 scum players in this game and there were 7 players that voted for VE with unknown alignments. There are 12 other living players. Of that 12, 5 voted for BM which was the other lynch target, the other 7 votes were throwaway votes. The players that didn't vote for VE either wasted their vote (and effectively chose not to use their vote) or voted for BM a player with no posts to analyse (an easy and safe vote to make without having to give any reasons). How exactly are the players that didn't vote for VE so much better than the ones that did that they are in your eyes "above scrutiny". If you want to think less of my opinions then you better think that i am scum or that i am wrong. Do not ignore what i am saying because i was wrong about VE's. Do not trust somebody because they didn't vote for him. | ||
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On April 24 2012 08:07 johnnywup wrote: not above scrutiny but I think unless you have an actual case against blazing you're more suspicious than him because you were on the VE lynch. obviously there were townies on the VE lynch but there were almost definitely scum on that lynch. Which makes you more likely to be scum than him. You didn't give an argument, you gave an opinion, and opinions of people on the VE lynch are worth less than others right now. So unless you come up with a good ARGUMENT against him, you're more likely to be under scrutiny than him. What do you think of what i said a few posts ago? You know, the argument i repeated about how him waiting until it was too late to stop the lynch before offering his opinion is suspicious. Even if you think there are scum on the the votelist, you cannot treat everyone on it like scum. You scruntinise them, make some sort of judgement then respond accordingly. You should not be trying to discredit everyone on that list for being wrong if you are town. | ||
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"I pledge to stop swearing for the rest of the game in the hope that we will all be nicer to each other" You don't need to post it but please try to stick to it. If we continue being at each others throats we will ruin Igrok's game. Let's try to be civil and stick to what will probably be terrible analysis that will cause other players and observers alike to recoil in horror. | ||
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On April 24 2012 08:31 BlazingJitsu wrote: Are you fucking kidding me? By what unfathomable absence of reason do you think I wanted VE to get lynched? I literally did everything I could to get Marv lynched. -Blazinghand You haven't addressed anything i have said about you. | ||
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On April 24 2012 08:37 BlazingJitsu wrote: I feel no need whatsoever to address the atrocity against human reason you call a case. -Blazinghand I never called it a case. I never said "you wanted to get VE lynched" I posted that you said you would address VE but that you made no attempt to defend him until it was too late, i think this is because you didn't want to stop him being lynched. I have said that you are tunneling marv to avoid giving real opinions or making any real contributions. Furthermore if marv flip's town then you are able to back out of every other accusation that you have made* because they would no longer be valid. They are the primary causes for my suspicion. Also, many of the reason's behind your accusations are preposterous. + Show Spoiler + i cannot go into detail now as it's 1 am and i have to be up in a few hours *i have not looked for a counter example i am mostly referring to your accusations against paqman and mignightgladius | ||
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On April 24 2012 08:52 BlazingJitsu wrote: In this post BH yet against avoids addressing the issue but he does make a wild accusation that is, "silly" at best. He is doing this to make himself look aggressive and confident so that people will have faith in him or think that he is townYou cannot go into detail? You ARE aware daybreak is in like 10 minutes? As a town player, I don't know I'll be alive in 10 minutes. What makes you so sure? You scum? -Blazinghand | ||
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On April 24 2012 09:00 BlazingJitsu wrote: In this post Layabout avoids addressing the issue but he does be worthless -Blazinghand Since the issue is "Blazinghand respond to my argument" you are the only one that can address it. Oh and i think zeph is not scummy. | ||
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At the time of voting VE i was unsure of myself because his play made next to no sense as either alignment*. It was his refusal to answer questions that was the eventual tipping point for me. It seems that this was also the case for zeph. *Also that is why i hate these it makes no sense as mafia arguments. It made no sense as town either, we shouldn't give a player the benefit of the doubt for being anti-town. | ||
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On April 24 2012 09:03 BlazingJitsu wrote: The other issue is "how does layabout know he wont' be shot" -Blazinghand layabout doesn't | ||
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On April 24 2012 09:07 marvellosity wrote: Right layabout. But my case basically hinged on how he acted after he voted for VE, not before. I think nearly everything you have quoted reinforces the notion that he was unsure of himself, and it does not change my opinion of him by much. part of marvellosity's case Alright, good. The second half of his filter is a goldmine though. He flip-flops in so many ways against me I'm having problem formatting it. Let's give it a go. Somewhat before the deadline: Ok, here we have tacit support for BH's case. He then kinda retracts it shortly after So generally a null read now, and then ANOTHER mention of the Risen observation (MG and I asking for deadline times almost simultaneously). Fair enough, let's continue. His next post contained the following 'accident': He says he is tempted to switch, he says that people have pointed out reasons to vote for you and mention's risen. Presumably he then goes and reads through your posts. He then concludes. "i don't see anything too bad except the scumslip Risen pointed out" but he doesn't seem to be sure of it. I fail to see how this makes zeph scummy. | ||
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Shape up. Try to help. Establish your innocence. Stop making it harder to find scum. | ||
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Bill Murray - 1 vote Mattchew Risen - 1 Vote Paqman johhnywup - 1 Vote MidnightGladius Zephirdd - 1 Vote johnnywup Ottoxlol - 1 Vote Mementoss BlazingJitsu BlazingJitsu - 1 Vote Ottoxlol [UoN]Sentinel - 2 Votes Zephirrd ghost_403 Seeing that huge spread of votes brought a tear to my eye. If we continue to push everyone and their mother then we make it very easy for scum to do whatever they like, as there are multiples ways that can take advantage of a clueless town. | ||
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On April 24 2012 21:15 ghost_403 wrote: + Show Spoiler [snip] + Another thing that I was going to note last night was the fact that Sentinel has been lurking like a bawse through this whole game. If you take a look at what he wrote last night, he more or less claimed that he was onboard the VE lynch, and that's it. Sentinel is afraid of posting in this thread, because he's afraid he'll do something to out his scumbuddies. I thought he was scum yesterday, our townie friend sloosh thought he was scum before Sentinel killed him, and I think we should be lynching him today. I'm guessing that he rolled goon, which is why he's so afraid to get caught. Scum KP should drop to 1 after we lynch Sentinel. Let's look at Sentinel's posts from last night! Poast 1 "I was totally onboard for the VE lynch before VE was". Who cares? What does this add to the thread? How does this help us hunt scum? MG's idea that the scum voted to lynch VE before the townies is flawed to begin with, and now he somehow wants more credit for it? On April 24 2012 09:05 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Wait... how the hell do you brand Risen green because of "town meta"? I think his aggressive-defensive bipolarity kinda ruined that aspect. If anything makes him green is that he backed VE till the end. Scum love making townie reads, because it saves them the trouble of scum hunting. You have nothing to say about the fact that Mattchew thinks you're scum? I'd be pissed if I ended up red on that list. On April 24 2012 09:26 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I'm in Star Battle so I won't make the deadline. I'll probably post some once I'm done, closer to 14:00 GMT (+00:00) "I'm going to give myself an excuse not to post so I can avoid scumslipping." On April 24 2012 10:41 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Fuck, have to push back my reply to tomorrow early morning. See above. On April 24 2012 10:43 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I'm posting exactly seven hours from now. I think I'll make it. See above. There's no reason for a townie to have this little content in the game. One post with a decent thought is all I ask for. Just one. One post where I can look back and agree or disagree with what you have to say. Instead, this. Nothing of content. The lack of content from Sentinel is due to the fact that's he's terrified of being caught. That's 'cause Sentinel rolled scum. ##vote [UoN]Sentinel If the crux of your case is his lack of a contribution then i must inform you that, that is typical of him. his past games | ||
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On April 25 2012 05:17 MidnightGladius wrote: Are you arguing that I should have been more convinced of VE's innocence, despite his scummy play, and pushed people off of his lynch? Perhaps I could have, but hindsight is cruel, and I would have not wanted to have been led to a no-lynch. Like I said in the post you only partially quoted, I highly doubt that I could have convinced the people voting for VE to move off of him. Would I have liked to have been perfectly certain and pulled a ton of pressure to move votes off of VE? Sure. Did I think it was the right, or feasible, idea at the time? No. A no-lynch A lynch on a player that you beleive is the town Jailed keeper Which is better if you are a)Town? or b)Mafia? | ||
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Underlined:things that show that MignightGlagius did not actually think that VE was scum. On April 23 2012 02:24 MidnightGladius wrote: Good morning, everyone. Yesterday's activities stretched way longer than anticipated, a friend ended up crashing at my place, and I wasn't keen on staying awake past 2AM to re-read the thread. I'm dropping my vote on marv, because other players are looking way more suspicious. He has also started posting much better, and I think his earlier response to my and BJ's cases was genuine. VE's claim makes absolutely no sense at all to me, and I can't see how it, or his subsequent behavior, benefits the town at all. Other players have made their cases well enough, so I'm not going to rehash their points, but VE is one of the more scummy players here right now. The only problem is, unlike LI, this claim makes no sense, doesn't advance a scum agenda, and isn't being supported by other mafia members. No one is even trying to defend him, except johnnywup, and I didn't see a scum plan out of their previous interactions. Would scum bus VE this early? It just doesn't make nearly as much sense as his actions in LI. The other possibility is that VE and johnnywup are both scum, playing less than optimally, with one or more of their teammates lurking heavily. In fact, the more I look at johnnywup's filter, it's pretty condemning. Starting from the second page of his filter, he puts a lot of suspicion on Paqman, who he calls "super scummy." However, he doesn't vote for him. He then says that Risen and St.Daniel are both scummy, raises doubts about Paqman's voting, and states that marv is looking better. He then immediately votes for marvellosity after BJ's second case. Why is johnny willing to revise his reads and immediately vote based on others' reasoning, while completely failing to push and vote for his own scumreads? He earlier was going to post a case on Sentinel, but never did so, apparently having felt that his evidence wasn't firm enough, but he continues to view Sentinel suspiciously, and even considers voting for him at ghost's request, if he presents a case. Again, we see a pattern where johnnywup is entirely willing to sheep other players, but doesn't want to make the first move. Johnny's reasoning for not having to post his case, "I'm being transparent, and I think my case is bad, so I'm not going to post it," is fair enough, but it leaves a pretty gaping hole in his argument: If Sentinel was scummy to him, but he couldn't make a compelling case, then what about his other scumreads? If johnny thinks Sentinel is innocent, then that must mean that he finds other players more suspicious. However, he doesn't pursue any of them! He doesn't write any cases, or ask any questions, or anything. Johnny's voteswitch to BM comes totally out of the blue. He doesn't say anything about why he's unvoting marv, despite earlier being more sure of it than he was of his own case against Paqman. And guess what, he immediately is certain of BM's guilt... but only after others made the first move. In between his posts where he is absolutely certain of someone being scum, he posts a bunch of not-particularly-helpful one-liners, but he hasn't done any real scumhunting of his own at all. Besides his defense of VE, he hasn't really taken an independent stance on anything. That, coupled with his sheeping, is enough to convince me. ##Unvote: marvellosity ##Vote: johnnywup MidnightGalsdius comes in at a time where players where voting for VE. He comes in a shows his support for a VE lynch. He also tells us doesn't know why VE would do what he is doing and that he doesn't think we should lynch him. Then he immediately labels VE and johnny scumbuddies and makes his case on Johnnywub. next post: On April 23 2012 04:21 MidnightGladius wrote: + Show Spoiler + My case on johnny is largely independent of VE's alignment. I'm voting for him, because his behavior is hesitant, except when he's sheeping someone else, and he's suddenly bold and certain. That inconsistency is what really bothers me about him. The fact that Risen hasn't posted recently is concerning, but I found his earlier anger in character, and I want to give him a chance to respond and share his new reads before I vote for him. I don't see a need or good reason to lynch VE, a claimed Jailkeeper, today, especially when there are players like johnny running around. + Show Spoiler + BH, I don't have as firm a scumread on marv as I did earlier, and I think you're tunneling him a bit too hard. As you said yourself, his more recent posts have been reasonably solid, but you disregard that as an "exception to the rule." I'm more tempted to think that, so long as his posting quality doesn't deteriorate, he's town with a weak Day 1 start. You're also concerned with his weak case, and I agree that he has a lot to make up for with his upcoming play, but I'm not convinced now that he's scum. Would you care to take a step back and look for other possible scum candidates, or are you going to insist that you're right? It speaks for itself really, but please note that he thinks that there are multiple players that are better lynches than VE. This next post is 75 minutes before the deadline. On April 23 2012 07:45 MidnightGladius wrote: + Show Spoiler + BJ, you're flooding the thread with duplicate posts and making it really hard for me to follow the dialogue. Yes, TL may have put a flood control on your account, but instead of posting short individual replies on multiple accounts, could you consolidate your posts and address everything at once? Also, with regards to your conviction: what would it take to convince you that you were wrong about marv? When I voted for him, it was because his posts were fluffy, and I told myself that if he started posting more substantially, then he would be less likely to be scum. From your perspective, his later posts reflected him playing to the standard you set for him. Instead of acquitting him, you used his behavior to further incriminate him. So I ask you this, and you don't have to answer in thread if you're afraid of WIFOM or whatever, but what would convince you that marv is town? If you're absolutely certain, and nothing could shift your beliefs, then remember that this is a game of incomplete information, and that you can't possibly be sure. Personally, I think lynching marv would make a terrible mislynch at this point. I still think that johnny is the best scum candidate at the moment, and that it's not too late to make it happen. His defense against my allegation of sheeping was to acknowledge that he was sheeping and claim that he's a bad player. How in the world are we just letting that slide? I would also be okay with lynching VE based on his complete unwillingness to continue playing, even though I'm hesitant to lynch a D1 jailkeeper claim, ridiculously scummy play or not. + Show Spoiler + Apparently there are no activity requirements for this game, but I still want to hear from BM before making any decisions about him. My current read on Risen is null, though it's hard to tell, because the tone of his posts is really starting to get on my nerves. Now he is willing to lynch VE despite Johnny+other being better candidates that he thinks could still be lynched. VE has not done anything new and no new evidence or reasoning has come to light since MG's other posts. He also calls him ridiculously scummy, and places the responsibility for his vote onto VE. He also claims thinks that is is not too late for us to change who we lynch. If he believes this and he wants to get us to change who to vote for, then he is going to need to be persuasive. Why then, does he also announce that he is totally fine with lynching the person that we are set to lynch? Nothing changes my mind more than somebody that tells me that they think i should vote for somebody else but also that they support my vote and are willing to change theirs to match mine. Then he shows up and berates "us" for letting "that"(VE lynch) happen even though he showed both subtle and open support for it. On April 23 2012 09:19 MidnightGladius wrote: + Show Spoiler + ..... I can't believe we just let that happen. slOosh marvellosity Bill Murray Ottoxlol VE layabout Sentinel Zephirdd In order of voting time. I wonder how many scum were on VE's lynch? Tomorrow, we're taking a long hard look at Zephirdd. I think MidnightGladius is one scummy dude. He is a superior candidate to the existing candidates. ##vote MidnightGladius I am aware that gonzaw raised some of these points and that MG kinda addressed them here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14454129 . But that doesn't change the fact that his actions suggest that he is mafia. Or the fact (probably) that he is mafia | ||
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On April 25 2012 05:37 Mattchew wrote: We should still lynch BM If you hadn't made it clear from the outset* that your decision to push BM was independent of BM's play then maybe people would take posts like this seriously. But you did, they don't, move on. + Show Spoiler [*] + On April 21 2012 09:15 Mattchew wrote: So anyway should we policy lynch Bill Murray because a. he is scum in like 99% of his recent games b. he gets away with everything "because he's Bill Murray" | ||
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On April 25 2012 06:17 Mattchew wrote: into him ninja voting VE (not just some random), letting VE get lynched, yelling at others for lynching VE, and overall terrible posting. I think his town meta atleast has him say he'll try hard at somepoint If that is the evolution of your case, then i think that your case is about to become a victim of natural selection + Show Spoiler + Anyone? In all seriousness The ninja vote in that context is not alignment indicative. Letting VE get lynch is something that only the people on BM did anything to stop. Terrible posting is a vague criticism and depending on the critic could be misapplied or applied to nearly anyone in the game. As far as i am aware he didn't yell at others for lynching VE, the closest post is here: On April 24 2012 14:50 Bill Murray wrote: I would be pretty hypocritical to vote him for that. I don't see it. It is really easy to mistake someone who is nervous with a Doctor or Jailkeeper role as being mafia... It's something we can't help. VE's vote for me was more like a placeholder. I was pretty busy during the time period. I didn't expect to get wagonned by mafia and for him to actually die. VE is a great player that shouldn't ever be lynched on D1. We should have lynched someone like Paqman on policy, though I'm glad we didn't now. His "we could have 3 vigs" comment cracked me up. He says he put the vote on VE (which was before the claim) He says he was busy and was unable to come back and change his vote. The questionable part (unless you think he is a liar) is why he would put his place holder vote on a player that he thinks should never be lynched day1 one. | ||
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I do not think i did soft defend zeph. I stated that i thought he was not scummy, tried to elaborate on that and then criticised the case against him. Sentinel: Again that is a direct criticism of the case. It's relevant, and is not a soft defence. BM: see above post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14471152 I think that he is being pushed for horrible reasons. I don't think he has a very high chance of flipping mafia. But he is doing next to nothing to establish his innocence or help us and we don't owe him anything. He is "null" his is play reminds me of jubjub (traitor) and death factory 2 (town sudo-dt) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=mafia&t=c&f=-1&u=Bill Murray&gb=date&d= In all honesty i am sick of trying to figure out what he is when he doesn't seem to want to make it any easier. I do not think that there is much that can be analysed and i do not think anybody had made any points that show that he is any likelier to be scum than he would be by pure chance. | ||
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On April 25 2012 06:43 Mattchew wrote: But when do we stop saying "oh its BM" and say "lynch that scum" When we have a reason to. eg. we have analysis that demonstrates that he is scum or we have plenty of storng town reads and the pool of players that scum lie in is small enough to make him a good lynch. I am concerned about why Ottoxlol is suggesting that we try to link the alignments of players together on shaky grounds and then lynch into them to find scum. This is a recipe for mislynches aplenty* and looks worse when you consider that he did so under pressure, instead of giving us solid opinions about who he thinks is scum. + Show Spoiler [*] + Do i need to explain this? Because i love a little bit of theorycraft. | ||
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What is your second best scum read behind MG? for a time it was mementoss but i could not build a solid argument. yesterday i felt that ottoxlol was green but his posts today have prompted me to re-think my position At the moment it's Ottoxlol There is likely scum among the lurkers but i have no magic way to find them: i forgot that Broodking was playing for some time, he seemed eager to play before the game but is showing no signs of that now that we are underway St.daniel is seeing another thread behind our back! but he has been absent form both games for some time which makes his lurking look less incriminating. | ||
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On April 25 2012 07:06 marvellosity wrote: Is the fact that he's a total newb an excuse for this? Or do you think it's gone beyond this excuse by now? No it does not. + Show Spoiler + On April 21 2012 14:41 Ottoxlol wrote: If he has to specify that he hasn't played on TlL then it's likely that he has played mafia somewhere else. If this is the case then he should be treated like somebody that knows that he is advocating something bad. Also his questions while not productive, are pertinent so he is probably smart enough to realise why what he is suggesting is anti townI haven't played mafia on tl To the question you addressed to Paqman, I have some suspicions because some people doesnt like logic, but i think its too early to decide its their limitations or theyre scums. He was happy to be sitting back and critiquing others yesterday, too. Which can be a way of looking like you are contributing without achieving anything. His suggestion today and reaction to pressure looked bad to me when i read it. I think's it's worth reading over his day1 play and deciding how much of what he did was him trying to accomplish something and how much of it was trying to echo the sentiments of the thread. MignightGladius is still a much better vote. I will be posting again in about 18 hours and there better be votes on MG when i get back. | ||
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On April 25 2012 08:03 MidnightGladius wrote: Okay, next time I'll know not to try reading the thread when exhausted. ##Unvote: ghost_403 layabout, I'm never going to live that line expressing regret about VE down, am I? Next time, I'll be sure to just repeat everyone else saying that VE was bad, and that would be better, right?  If you are going to act like that statement after VE's flip is the reason for my case and try to downplay it instead of explaining your scummy behaviour then it's clear to me that you cannot explain your scummy behaviour and you are trying to discredit my case instead. Goodnight. | ||
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Earilier i may have written that gonzaw made points against him but i was incorrect. SlOosh is the player that made a case against him. Since Mignight Gladius is probably scum, hitting slOosh has become much more understandable. Mignight is not being proactive about posting and he has again tried to play down and discredit my accusations against him rather than be open or honest about his acitions. He has kept his posting to a minimum. Today we have had a much more "productive" discussion, and by that i mean nearly everything has been centred about who to lynch and why, it has consisted largely of players giving their opinions and sharing reads. By contrast much of yesterday was spent discussing the set-up (to get discussion going) there was an awful lot of trashy/hateful posting proportionally far less of the postin gthat we have seen today. When the discussion was not serious but was easy to post thoughts without having to give strong opinions Mignight was posting a lot and he was posting long. Now that he can only post about who he thinks the scum are, he has gone quiet, and the posts he has made have been shorter and devoid of content. i also didn't place vote yesterday ##vote MignightGladius | ||
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On April 26 2012 07:11 Mementoss wrote: With an hour left, I don't like that you are avoiding the 2 most popular lynches. So you can't be put on a person with a possible green flip, since you would be almost the deciding vote. Although I see I do see the possibilty of MG being scummy. with 2 hours left i avoiding a townread and a lynch that i view to be inferior to the person that i voted for. click here search for mentions of "zeph" or zephird in MG's filter Look at how MG says he has a scum read on zeph late into day1 (after his vote), says that we should lynch into the players that voted VE (including zephird), repeats that he has a scumread on zephird, never explains why, and then votes for Zeph because zeph did not managing to change MG's opinion of him: On April 26 2012 05:37 MidnightGladius wrote: I'm putting my vote on zeph. He has said nothing recently to make me change my mind about his earlier posting, and johnny's recent posting has made me less suspicious of him. He has stopped sheeping actively, and raises good points. I do want to tell johnny that building on gonzaw's cases is reasonable, but though we know that he was innocent, we have no idea as to whether or not he was actually right. Sentinel is pretty much impossible for me to read, and his latest WIFOM is incredibly frustrating. My intuition on him is apathetic town, but he could easily be scum, and I just can't tell. I don't feel like he's taking things at all seriously, and his unwillingness to push cases beyond Ottoxlol doesn't help. And we still have so many lurkers, and no vig claims to deal with them... BKEXE, any conclusions yet? St.Daniel, now that you're replaced out of SNMMX, any thoughts? We really can't do this without you guys. ##Vote: Zephirdd He also gives up on his "big scumread" Johnnywub that he actually bothered to make a case against day1. Judging by his lolwtf unvote of johnny to vote for ghost earlier, i can't help but wonder at what point MG decided that he couldn't push Johnny anymore, but whenever that was, it seems like it was a long time before he was willing to tell the thread. This implies that he was willing to make a case against a player that he did not think was scum to make himself look better. he makes this criticism of ottoxlol On April 25 2012 05:01 MidnightGladius wrote: I'm exhausted and going to take a nap, but I want to say that Ottoxlol's play one these last 2 pages alone is really scummy. He's willing to push any of BM, Zeph, or Sent, again without any particular conviction. The excuse "they're all equally likely to be scum to me" is incredibly flimsy. [i]not full quote] even though he is guilty of the same. | ||
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ottozlol's play suggests that he very well could be town because he has made the effort to do things that townies should do. His opinions have some level of consistency. The same cannot be said for MidnightGaldius. His posting suggests that he is looking for easy candidates to push instead of scum to lynch. | ||
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Does this player care about the game? ( if the answer is no then there is a reduced chance that they are scum since scum will at least try to feign interest to look town) Does this player care about finding scum? ottoxlol yes, yes zephird maybe maybe MG yes no | ||
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MG has been truly apathetic towards today's lynch, he has put in very little effort and offered very little of his own thoughts. He was willing to write a case against Johnny, he gave up on it, and now he has hopped onto the zeph wagon because of reasons that he has apparently had for days that he is not willing to share with us. | ||
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since that would be the same time of day as the night 1 post | ||
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On April 26 2012 07:54 MidnightGladius wrote: I wrote a case on johnny, it was ignored (except by Ottoxlol today), and I dropped it after re-evaluating johnny's play. My vote on ghost was admittedly poorly reasoned and paranoid. I wrote my reasons for voting for Zephirdd, and they haven't changed since then. If you want me to rehash all of my points each time new evidence comes up, that's all well and good, and I could quote all of Zeph's fearmongering and deflection and fluff today, but I don't plan on doing it. At the start of the day you voted for Johnny because you had written a case against him yesterday but not gotten him lynched. You dropped the Johnny is scum trail of thought (in the thread at least) when you unvoted him to vote for ghost for reason that i will refer to as "ludicrous". That fact that you did this shows that you really were not convinced that Johnny was scum. But since you easily dropped your top scumread i would expect you to make the effort to replace it. Instead you lurk and sheep a vote onto a player that you claimed to have a scumread on (after others had called him suspicious) but a scumread that you never felt was worth explaining to the thread. It seems like you didn't plan on showing evidence or explaining anything today. | ||
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On April 26 2012 08:02 layabout wrote: ottox if you don't switch onto MG i will kill you Is layabout referring to a) The fact that his vote should secure an ottoxlol lynch b) He has decided to claim vig which would allow mafia to block the one shot he would have by shooting him during the coming night less derp more lynching MG | ||
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On April 26 2012 08:13 Ottoxlol wrote: Laya, why do you want to kill me if your read is that i am town? That was supposed to say: Could this player care about finding scum. When i came back today i looked at the votes i read the thread and thought "we don't have a chance of lynching scum" So i am going treat both you as zephird as if you are probably town. Lynching you still has a chance of killing scum and was suspicious of you yesterday, so if it comes to it i will add my vote to your list to lessen reduced scum ability to create a swing should one of you turn out to be mafia (which i do not believe is the case). | ||
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On April 26 2012 09:03 MidnightGladius wrote: At least all of those votes moving around at the deadline should yield something interesting. Maybe we can find one of your buddies | ||
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On April 26 2012 23:54 marvellosity wrote: Do you find it likely we have a vig when, for example, BM was not shot in Night 1? Well we know we don't have a vig reckless enough to make a sub-optimal shot night 1. Or that they did and BM is a gf or one of the two were jailed. or they shot somebody else who was a GF or one of them was jailed. It's as if all we actually know is that no shot went through. Guys can you please stop all of this blue discussion. Unless you have some sort of ingenious plan for the blues that is vastly superior to them making their own decisions which are relatively straightforward then cut it out. I was going to say that Risen is a better shot but after thinking about it i think that Ottoxlol is a better shot but we should actually shoot/lynch neither. My thoughts on the implications of yesterdays lynch: It is true that if ottoxlol flips red then risen's switch would have been so beneficial to mafia that he likely is too. Shooting risen we have a similar impact since the switch made him a target and he would have no good reason to put himself in the spotlight for being anti-town unless it was to save a teammate. If Risen flips mafia then it is highly likely that his switch was to save a team-mate, which would be ottoxlol. If Risen flips town then we can't really infer anything about ottoxlol's alignment since Risen didn't know it and would have vote switched for the reasons he gave. If ottoxlol flips mafia then it's clear that Risen's switch did save mafia and the most reasonable explanation for this would be that he too is mafia. If ottoxlol flips town then Risen would have switched a lynch that mafia had no real reason to change and we can infer that Risen is very likely town. If we assume that nothing outlandish is happening then the following flips will lead to this: Flip: Risen => Risen Ottoxlol Risen => Risen Ottoxlol Ottoxlol => Risen Ottoxlol Ottoxlol => Risen Ottoxlol This means that if we are trying to be objective, ottoxlol's flip is the mosts valuable.. I believe that ottoxlol is town and that we are likely dealing with two town therefore we should not flip either. | ||
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But if you do, killing Ottoxlol would be the better choice. On April 27 2012 00:35 marvellosity wrote: So layabout, we know you think MG - do you have any other likely candidates? I will answer this before the deadline, since the explanation i give would be helpful to a mafiateam wondering who to shoot | ||
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On April 27 2012 01:05 Mattchew wrote: clarifying EBWOP: made it a tie that was still favoring zeph to be lynched If that is the case then risen's open panicking in the thread was for nothing. hmmmmm... Would i be correct that this is in fact this vote that switched the lynch from ottox to zephird? On April 26 2012 08:52 BroodKingEXE wrote: ##Vote: Zephirdd and this is the explanation for it? On April 26 2012 08:54 BroodKingEXE wrote: ##Vote: Zephird I'm voting for Zephird he's posted enough that he should be able to answer questions but hasn't. | ||
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But look! BK "ninja" voted too and we almost missed it. | ||
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I'll have my thoughts on Uon and Ottoxol in my next post. and delivers us this: On April 26 2012 04:45 BroodKingEXE wrote: Can someone point out to me why all this suspicion about Ottoxlol? I'm having trouble finding any big cases against him. His earlier posts look fine to me. On April 26 2012 08:54 BroodKingEXE wrote: ##Vote: Zephird I'm voting for Zephird he's posted enough that he should be able to answer questions but hasn't. | ||
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On April 27 2012 01:28 marvellosity wrote: Yes, this is also something I had noticed. The way I read it at the time was in the 2nd post, he was following through on his 1st - he was looking at Ottoxlol, and he hadn't found anything major and so was asking. Not great since Ottoxlol has posted scummily in parts, but it does suggest he went to look like he said. What he didn't do is post his thoughts on Sentinel as promised. That's fact. If he was follwoing through and asking for us to tell him stuff, then surely he should also follow through and either produce stuff and tell that he judges zephirdd to be scum and ottoxlol to be __>not as good a lynch a zephird<__ . Then place his vote on zephirdd. He should also do this when there is enough time left for people to assess what he says and possibly respond to it. His vote would then clearly be on zephirdd. It is as if he was reluctant to put his vote on zephirdd and only put his vote on at the very end. Consider the scenario in which BroodkingExe, Risen and Ottoxlol are all scum. Can you think of a more reasonable one? | ||
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On April 27 2012 01:50 marvellosity wrote: I think I'm not quite grasping your point of view. The way I saw things unfold were 1) Broodking outlined why he found Zephirdd scummy, said he'd look at ottoxlol/sentinel 2) Looked at Ottoxlol, didn't find anything, asked town about him 3) He didn't find anything convincing on Ottoxlol, so placed his vote on his stronger read from earlier (Zephirdd) Somewhere in this timeline is the failure to examine Sentinel as promised. It almost seems what you're saying is that he should have produced an anti-case on Ottoxlol? which I don't quite get. Primarily the dodgy thing is his total failure to look at Sentinel, no? Finally, to your trio - yes, it's entirely plausible. But it could just be connections that panned out that way. For example, you seem to think Risen and Ottoxlol are probably town. Why on earth would he wait until 8 minutes before the deadline when he claimed to have looked at ottoxlol hours before then. for me the lynch time (on TL) is 9:00 05:00 4 hours til lynch Ottoxlol has 6 votes zephirdd has 2 votes MidnightGaldius, St. Daniel and Marvellosity vote for zephird 07:00 2 hours before deadline votes are: zephird 5 votes ottoxlol 6 votes 5-6 Ottoz to be lynched + Show Spoiler + St.Daniel --> Zephirdd Janaan --> Zephirdd marvellosity --> Zephirdd johnnywup --> Zephirdd MidnightGladius --> Zephirdd + Show Spoiler + Mementoss --> Ottoxlol Ghost_403 --> Ottoxlol Risen --> Ottoxlol Bill Murray --> Ottoxlol [UoN]Sentinel --> Ottoxlol Zephirrd --> Ottoxlol 07:17 paqman votes zephird 6-6 Ottoxlol to be lynched 07:26 Ottoxlol votes zephird 7-6 zephirdd to be lynched 08:26 Mattchew votes for Ottoxlol 7-7 zephird to be lynched 08:36 Layabout votes for Ottoxlol 7-8 Ottoxlol to be lynched 08:52: BroodkingExe votes for zephird 8-8 Ottoxlol to be lynched 08:57 Risen changes to zephirdd 9-7 zephirdd to be lynched 08:59 Risen changes back to Ottoxlol 8-8 zephird to be lynched 09:00 zephird lynched. Lookes to me like scum were happy to see zephird get lynch but after Matchew and i voted for ottoxlol they decided to switch the lynch back onto town. Then Risen does a weird switch back to make himself look clueless in the hope that he will be excused on "meta grounds" and to allow his team mates to bus him for towncred. OR we have a townie that waited until the last possible moment to place his vote on the player that he thought was scum. AND a townie that decided to wait until there was no time left for a townie to change their vote to change the person being lynched for a reason that is ludicrous, AND these players made the decisions to act this way independently of each other, AND this caused a town player to be lynched. | ||
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It looks like my townread on Ottoxlol is incorrect, because it would require me to make too many assumptions to maintain it. To elaborate: Namely Broodking and Risen coordinated voteswitches at the last minute to change the lynch. The idea that both of them are town is very difficult for me to accept. If they are not town then both of them being scum seems to make the most sense and it would also lead me to think that Ottoxlol is also scum. | ||
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On April 27 2012 02:37 marvellosity wrote: Ok, I see what you're getting at. I can still understand Broodking voting the way he did if he was town - express scummy thoughts on Zeph, voice townie concerns on ottoxlol, finally sees nothing for why he should vote ottoxlol and votes for Zephirdd. BUT - your narrative also makes sense. Whichever way you swing it, leaving it THAT LATE to vote is... well, it's a bit ugh. And it could very well appear that Broodking and Risen colluded to get Ottoxlol lynched, with Risen playing the weird switch-back card. It all boils down to this though - your narrative only makes sense if you believe Ottoxlol to be scum. If you don't, then it falls apart. You've expressed more than once that you feel Ottoxlol to be probably town. Is the sequence of voting at the end enough to now convince you that he's scum? Is that actually enough? If risen is scum then the switch to a townie makes no sense. If a townie would have been lynched anyway why would he put himself into the spotlight like that? Especially when you consider that he auto-assumed he would be lynched for it. | ||
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On April 27 2012 02:43 marvellosity wrote: Ok, question for you: If Broodking/Risen are scum, why would Broodking not place his vote on Zephirdd considerably earlier (thus getting Zephirdd to 8 votes first) rather than perform this ridiculous act at the end of voting? Why would somebody on the mafia team be reluctant to place his vote on the wagon of a townie? Remember at 4:45 when Broodking posted about Ottox, zephird only had 2 votes (Jaanan and Johnnywub). zephird gathered some votes. + Show Spoiler [aside] + MG was one of these votes and since i think he is scum it makes sense to me that scum might not want to vote at the same time to oppose a wagon on one of their team mates. I will wager that by this point at least 1 member of their team on the zephird wagon. In this sense it makes sense for them to hold off on voting for him immediately because they would ideally like to keep the number of them on the townie wagon as low as possible since those players get more heavily scrutinised. by 07:17 it was tied 6-6 and Ottoxlol still had his vote. So from this point onwards they could get zephird lynched and Ottoxlol can do it by legitimately saying that he is trying to save himself. So there was no need for anymore of them to be on the wagon. When 2 more votes came in fairly late for ottox they needed to act and so they did.+ Show Spoiler [aside] + Risen ending up on Ottoxlol would also show just how much they did not want to be on the votes for a mislynch | ||
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On April 27 2012 02:57 layabout wrote: Why would somebody on the mafia team be reluctant to place his vote on the wagon of a townie? Remember at 4:45 when Broodking posted about Ottox, zephird only had 2 votes (Jaanan and Johnnywub). zephirdd gathered some votes. + Show Spoiler [aside] + MG was one of these votes and since i think he is scum it makes sense to me that scum might not want to vote at the same time to oppose a wagon on one of their team mates. I will wager that by this point at least 1 member of their team on the zephirdd wagon. In this sense it makes sense for them to hold off on voting for him immediately because they would ideally like to keep the number of them on the townie wagon as low as possible since those players get more heavily scrutinised. by 07:17 it was tied 6-6 and Ottoxlol still had his vote. So from this point onwards they could get zephird lynched and Ottoxlol can do it by legitimately saying that he is trying to save himself. So there was no need for anymore of them to be on the wagon. When 2 more votes came in fairly late for ottox they needed to act and so they did.+ Show Spoiler [aside] + Risen ending up on Ottoxlol would also show just how much they did not want to be on the votes for a mislynch I would like to add that between ottoxlol BroodkingExe and Risen they had the capacity to create a 4 vote swing. So the entire time they would be confident that they could save their team mate ottoxlol and feel less need to move onto zephridd unless they were made to. + Show Spoiler [crazytalk] + If their other member was not on zephirdd they could create a 5 vote swing and if they were on Ottolox a 6 vote swing. | ||
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On April 27 2012 04:10 johnnywup wrote: ghost, ive addressed that. i had the same thoughts as you initially but ithought it through and it was barely tied. i dont think scum could have arranged something like that. It's a townie mistake and it's likely he didn't think that the tie would keep the lynch on zeph after he switched back. You don't think that scum would deliberately change the lynch target at the last second? Or you don't think that they would try to pass it off as a mistake? scum have done in the past, most notably + Show Spoiler [here] + In my first game of mafia TL Mafia XLVII The scumteam commit a huge voteswitch at the end of the day to kill Palmer and BC. A voting update was posted during the switch and as a consequence of that bumatlarge who had been part of the switch accused hum teammates of claiming scum in the thread. Some of them then did claim scum in the thread. | ||
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JK's stay the hell away from ottox, if you want to block a goon go for BK (or maybe MG) instead. Vig's shoot the crap out of ottox. When he flips red we will be in a great position. On the outside chance that he flips green then we will know we are on the wrong track. Trackers on Risen or BK or MG. | ||
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On April 27 2012 05:21 Ottoxlol wrote: If you think i am 100% scum then BK is town. the votes were 7 6 for Zeph at 07:26, plenty of time till the deadline with you and Matt saying you will vote for me. If he would have been scum he could easily voted before you guys (08:36) making the Risen switch unnecessary strictly speaking this is incorrect Mattchew had voted for BM and his vote would not have changed who ended up being lynched and it's possible that the mafia may not have anticipated that he would change his vote. As soon as i got back to the thread i began to push MG and my vote was on him. Ottoxlol also seemed to think that i would vote for zephirdd over him, because he said that he thought that i thought he was town. + Show Spoiler + try saying that 3 times quickly I didn't say i would change my vote until 8:02. Only at that point would mafia know they needed to act. From this point onwards mafia would be able to decide on what to do. If they were discussing it is unlikely that they would make their decision immediately. Ottoxlol did try to get me to change my vote. If Broodkingexe had voted at this time in he would have to deal with attention, questions and responsibilty for the flip. There was still time for him to slip up or for townies to change their votes. It's also short sighted to expect anyone (including mafia) to play optimally and if you are reading the game at all i think you will agree with that, but there are limits as to what kind of play is plausible and what kind of play is intentionally anti-town. A townie that makes a case against a player he really believes is scum would have to be out of their right mind to not post for hours and then pop back in with a line and a vote 8 minutes before the deadline and that this caused a mislynch. That play while not optimal for scum would still make lots of sense. | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On April 27 2012 07:36 marvellosity wrote: It bugs me, why do people like BM sign up if they don't intend to actually play? To make the game harder/less enjoyable, isn't it obvious? Anyway, hold off on complaining about other people's general play styles until post game. | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On April 27 2012 07:42 johnnywup wrote: i dont think anyone persons flip confirms any other person as scum or town, it may increase odds but i don't think that that should be a basis for getting reads on people -.- Generally this is correct. However, Please tell me if you think i am making a mistake in this post click, because the way i see it we can draw those conclusions and we would only be incorrect to do so if multiples absurdities had coincided and all of them are acting to the detriment of our glorious town. | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On April 27 2012 08:02 johnnywup wrote: verdict on the voteswitching: not alignment indicative but what if...."_____" this doesn't explain the voteswitch therefore the voteswitch is not alignment indicative ? I am sure i said that if ottoxlol flips town then Risen also being town is the most likley scenario..... | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On April 27 2012 08:12 johnnywup wrote: Ok, but did you read my post? I don't think this voteswitching is alignment indicative at all. Yeah. That made no sense. Votes are how town kills mafia. Ultimately your decision making is centred around trying to influence other votes and how to uses your own vote. When you do something with your vote you will do so for a reason. Figuring out others reasons for what they do with their votes can allow you to deduce their alignment. A voteswitch can be hugely alignment indicative since we can analyse the implications of the switch and geuss at the motivation for it. Is there anything that you DO think can be indicative of alignment? | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On April 27 2012 08:24 johnnywup wrote: laya, he switched back. it could be an honest mistake of not thinking about the tie rule. I do find votes alignment indicative but in this specific situation I can't see this being specifically scummy or townie, or revealing of either players alignment based on a flip. his voting on ottox in the first place may be alignment indicative, but the vote switch isn't. i think its probable he just forgot about the tie rule. If you think he realized "oh, my voteswitch and the voteswitch back will change first majority to zeph, but my vote won't change really", then carry on thinking that, but I don't think that that is what happened. If it's an honest mistake then there is basically no chance that Risen is scum. | ||
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On May 05 2012 09:03 Risen wrote: Good game guys! I'm in shock right now that we pulled this off. I thought for sure mattchew revealing my crumbs was going to give away that he was scum and I had given them to him. I'm in shock right now. It completely revealed that | ||
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It's like everyone in the game was trying to help the other team achieve their wincon | ||
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On May 05 2012 09:39 Mattchew wrote: The biggest problem with TL towns right now is not judging blue claims by the persons posting, people are judging blue claims by whether or not they would have played the role the same way. because someone plays diff than you doesnt make them scum. That is A problem with TL towns. Other problems include: Deliberately doing the absolute worst thing you could possibly do with your role Not reading the thread Waiting until the last possible second to vote Not reading the thread Not reading the OP Tunnelling a player relentlessly for no particular reason Insulting others for the sake of it Not posting much at all Refusing to establish you innocence Breaking the rules Not using their roles Not discussing anything at all Being uncooperative Not reading the thread | ||
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