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On April 23 2012 05:06 johnnywup wrote:I wouldn't worry about me MG. I'm always sheepy unfortunately. Does that mean I'm scum? No. It just means I'm bad and can't find arguments myself easily. But yeah, BM definitely is scummy in that he's here but he's not posting...but we won't get any information out of lynching him, so a vig shot would be better for him, like others said. Zephirdd looks scummy as hell though. + Show Spoiler +Zephirdd has hardly any posts so this should be a simple case. All of which are scummy. On April 21 2012 12:58 Zephirdd wrote:
/confirm
Usually millers have to claim as soon as they realize they are millers; However in this case the millers are also vigilantes, and we can't really protect them without RBing them.
I also will see a problem when, for example, one person claims vigilante; as in, the GFs didn't claim. Suddenly all the info we got from these "claims" is that our only vigilante is outed and mafia got a target on his head.
gonzaw didn't seem to care about this one possibility; I don't like that. I didn't read much past page 10 tho, and gotta go to sleep and go into my inactive mode(as I said before the game).
That's all.
~cya Here, let me provide you information that you already know! On April 22 2012 06:10 Zephirdd wrote:
k, too much to catch up on, too little time.
I see gonzaw arrived a reasonable way to "plan" vigilantes here. That is, a vigilante should just play as a normal vigi.
I still can't be sure who I should vote. I see marvellosity is leading the votecount, can someone provide me a link to a case of his, or even a page where I can find it?
I know it's silly to ask for that, but I am really busy atm and as much as I can condense what is happening, the easier it will be to catch up. I promise I'll do better day2 onwards Indecisive, not scumhunting, doesn't want to put in effort to help town (even though he's busy he should be able to look for at least that), apologetic about his inactivity. all simple scum tells. I'm busy I'm busy, please, try make more excuses. On April 23 2012 00:17 Zephirdd wrote:
God damnit layabout. I was about to post how VE's claim made sense and how he was town, but then you convince me the opposite. Geez.
And this martyring post from VE only makes sense from two PoVs:
- He really is a JK and he will let town use his flip information to deal with what happened during the day
- He is scum trying to sound like that.
Also, right now, I see no reason to lynch Bill Murray - he should be vigged, not lynched if he doesn't contribute soon.
VE, what is your stance on gonzaw, especially after his series of (Seemingly) drunk posts?
Also, please make the case against the certain scum you are talking about. Should you flip JK, we got something solid to work from. In fact, I'll take you are claiming scum if you don't do that. this post is just ridiculous. layabouts post seemingly made him drop all of his opinions and run the opposite direction in order to stay with the crowd. gives information we've already taken into account. asks questions and asks ve to make a case when he still hasnt made any of his opinions known besides that he thinks ve may be scum because he claimed. wow what an original opinion he arrived at. then goes on to say VE is scum if he doesnt comply with his own wishes...lol. On April 23 2012 02:07 Zephirdd wrote:
Gonzaw, please tell me why should we lynch risen over VE right now. There was a post RIGHT before that that zephirdd was referring to...which answered that question. If he saw the post, why didn't he read unless he's trying to ask questions to fit in? On April 23 2012 02:13 Zephirdd wrote:
I thought it was common sense that vigis claim their shot beforehand in order to allow JKs to coordinate themselves and especially because scum shouldnt NK a vigilante.. okay thats great but do you have anything new to add? a scum case? because as far as I'm concerned you're not doing anything pro-town at all. this post just makes himself look confused or smart or whatever in order to fit in. just ridiculous.
##vote zephirdd
you put your vote on a real candidate now and stop trying to spread confusion
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On April 23 2012 05:02 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 04:39 Mementoss wrote:On April 23 2012 04:04 layabout wrote:On April 23 2012 03:32 Mementoss wrote:
The more I think of it, the more I agree and like Gonzaws points on why lynching Risen is better than VE or BM.
VE very well could be JK, his claim doesn't make sense either side. If we don't lynch him and his claim is true, scum will most likely take care of him either tonight or the next night. Maybe by then he can somehow prove his claim. I think its best to wait it out. Worse case by lynching him we take out our own blue. Let mafia waste KP on that.
BM should be vigged if we have a vig, claim the shot before you shoot. If he doesn't die, We know that, either the shooter or BM is GF. Hes lurking and acting scummy, but hard to tell cause he has like 3 posts. Lynching him doesn't tell us anything if hes town, shooting him is the better option.
Also I like gonzaws case on Risen. His posts lack meaning and consistency. He has a hard time to commiting to anything and his emotions are all over the place. Im happy with a Risen lynch over the other two. Risen looks scummy, and the other two cases will hopefully work themselves out with night actions/ VE somehow confirms his claim then gets killed by mafia KP.
##Unvote: VisceraEyes
##Vote: Risen If we don't lynch him and his claim is true, scum will most likely take care of him either tonight or the next night. If VE was right about anything it's that he is not a good shot for mafia. Saying let's not lynch this guy that people are willing to lynch because if he is town the mafia will kill him for us is crazy. If VE is town they his a a walking mislynch tying his own noose. Since mafia's greatest threat is the lynch, townies that might get mislynched are townies that the mafia benefit from keep alive. Maybe by then he can somehow prove his claim Please come up with a scenario in which this could happen. I can't think of one. If he doesn't die, We know that, either the shooter or BM is GF. no we don't (cough jailkeeper or a liar cough ) Lynching him doesn't tell us anything if hes town, shooting him is the better option. wtf? who is lynching him for information? point them out so that we can all say that you never lynch for information because that is dumb, you lynch to hit scum. I don't get this "I want us to vig BM not lynch him" the lynch is reliable but a vig shot in a game that might not have vigi's could have multiple Jailkeepers and has 2 bulletproof mafia is not garanteed to get us a flip. 1]Wat. Why wouldn't mafia wanna kill the JK? They probably won't tonight. But they eventually will have to. You really think they are going to leave a potential JK alive all game? If he can't prove his claim/ mafia doesn't kill him we can eventually lynchhim. 2]He can prove his claim by JKin a person and if we have a tracker tracks him, then if we have a tracker they can correctly say he did. Or if he happens to JK someone that was going to be hit by mafia and successfully saves him, aka only 1 KP goes through. I think your just being ignorant with this statment lol. 3]What JK is going to JK BM? None. None that want town to win. Also, as town why would you lie? You claim your shot before hand and then if it doesn't go through on BM its either a fake claim or GF. Lynch them both and we get 1 for 1. No reason for vig to lie at all. Also can you really tell someone is scum off of 3 lines of post/ action? I doubt it. Thats why it seems like a complete guess if hes scum or not. That is why he is a good vig shot. Lets lynch someone with the best case against them that is most likely to flip scum. 1]>insert didn't read gif< you ask me a question in response to something which answer that very question. My point is that scum will be in no hurry to kill VE if he is a Jailkeeper, because they can quite easily get him mislynched which protects them and because they can legitimately call him out for being scummy and because attention on him is attention that isn't on them. 2]Oh right. We can prove his claim if somebody whos role we cannot verify without killing them claims tracker and tells us that he visited them. Nobody is confirmed until they flip.we can only verify that he visits somebody if a player tells us he visited them and then flips tracker. We then know he visited them. We cannot know if he protected them until we know for certain that the player he visited was not a Godfather and was not visited by a jailkeeper, because it is still possible that he is a goon or a vig. Even then it would still be possible (but pants on head retarded) that he is a tracker. 3]My point is that if he does not die after somebody claims to have shot him there are a number of possibilities.You said that if he didn't die we would know that either the shooter of BM was a Godfather. But not only would we not know but we have a player that claimed uncooperative jailkeeper. If you were a jailkeeper with a townread on BM would you let him get shot? Probably not. Well what if a vig claims a shot on a godfather? If the mafia kill him then there should be no vig shot and we cannot infer anything about the target. You insisted that we don't lynch BM but vig him instead. I have explained why we cannot rely on vigi's to kill players for us. If you believe that as town you shouldn't lie and you believe that VE and Johnny are scumbuddies then i think your vote is on the wrong person
I didnt realize that vigs shoot after the goons. Your point 3 is good and well taken. I would not like to lynch BM still though. He could easily be either. Hes just bad.
I never said that VE and Johnny are scum buddies.
Right now I'm having trouble figuring out which case/which person is scummier out of. Risen VE and Marv. I'm leaning towards Risen atm and that is why I'm voting him. I will re-read the cases and re-evaluate before the lynch. But I am not willing to vote outside these three people.
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oh right that was midnight.
@People that unvoted VE
why would you unvote a player that knows better than to do this as town but did it anyway:
On April 22 2012 23:48 VisceraEyes wrote:
K this game is no longer interesting to me. I'm not interested in defending myself.
##Unvote: Bill Murray
##Vote: VisceraEyes
For anyone concerned about me "playing to my win-condition", D1 discussion is ruined and I can accept my part in that. Lynch me, flip me, and do what you will with the information. You'll win with it. And therefor, I'll win. I'm playing to my win-condition.
gg
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EBWOP: Last minute claims would solve this though. If they die, we know the shot didn't go through. If not we can realize that they are either lying or BM is GF. Then we can still lynch into them and go 1 for 1. So I retract what I said. Also JK is not going to JK BM. I don't think anyone has a "good" town -read on him as you say.
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On April 23 2012 05:17 Mementoss wrote:
EBWOP: Last minute claims would solve this though. If they die, we know the shot didn't go through. If not we can realize that they are either lying or BM is GF. Then we can still lynch into them and go 1 for 1. So I retract what I said. Also JK is not going to JK BM. I don't think anyone has a "good" town -read on him as you say.
Again a large part of my point is that you were telling us that we could draw certain conclusions when in fact we could not.
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On April 23 2012 05:20 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:17 Mementoss wrote:
EBWOP: Last minute claims would solve this though. If they die, we know the shot didn't go through. If not we can realize that they are either lying or BM is GF. Then we can still lynch into them and go 1 for 1. So I retract what I said. Also JK is not going to JK BM. I don't think anyone has a "good" town -read on him as you say. Again a large part of my point is that you were telling us that we could draw certain conclusions when in fact we could not.
Alright maybe I am misunderstanding you on multiple occasions. But Im pretty sure WE CAN draw conclusions from this. Im pretty sure its agreed on.
Ill go through the situations:
1. Vig last minute claims and shoots. He dies. His shot didn't go through. Inconclusive.
2. Vig last minute claims and shoots. The other person comes up town. Cause of the claim and extra KP we can assume he isn't lieing and is town.
3. Vig last minute claims and shoots. The other person doesn't die. We lynch into them, because either
a) The shot hit a GF or was faked. So we lynch them first. Then if they don't flip GF the other person is lying, and we lynch them and they flip GF.
b) The target was JK'd. But you should be able to pick a target that you know won't be JK'd so we can ignore that.
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On April 23 2012 05:25 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:20 layabout wrote:On April 23 2012 05:17 Mementoss wrote:
EBWOP: Last minute claims would solve this though. If they die, we know the shot didn't go through. If not we can realize that they are either lying or BM is GF. Then we can still lynch into them and go 1 for 1. So I retract what I said. Also JK is not going to JK BM. I don't think anyone has a "good" town -read on him as you say. Again a large part of my point is that you were telling us that we could draw certain conclusions when in fact we could not. Alright maybe I am misunderstanding you on multiple occasions. But Im pretty sure WE CAN draw conclusions from this. Im pretty sure its agreed on. Ill go through the situations: 1. Vig last minute claims and shoots. He dies. His shot didn't go through. Inconclusive. 2. Vig last minute claims and shoots. The other person comes up town. Cause of the claim and extra KP we can assume he isn't lieing and is town. 3. Vig last minute claims and shoots. The other person doesn't die. We lynch into them, because either a) The shot hit a GF or was faked. So we lynch them first. Then if they don't flip GF the other person is lying, and we lynch them and they flip GF. b) The target was JK'd. But you should be able to pick a target that you know won't be JK'd so we can ignore that.
you wrote this:
If he doesn't die, We know that, either the shooter or BM is GF.
I pointed out that this was incorrect. I think you have acknowledged it on some level.
So can you put some of your newfound effort into looking at the play of all the players yo are willing to lynch?
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Honestly johnnywup is my biggest scumread atm Pac. I have no idea why he thinks forwarding another lynch candidate at the last second is a good idea, and it just shits up the thread. Do we take the case against him seriously? Do we try and organize everyone to swap their votes over to zeph even though no one else has mentioned zeph as a serious candidate thus far? We can't do that, we don't have the time.
I know I was against it before, but I don't see how marvel could be pushing a lynch on VE right now. We can't lynch our claimed JK. It's been stated in the thread but I'll state it again. You don't lynch a claimed doctor, and we shouldn't lynch the closest thing we have to a doctor. Is it possible VE is lying? Yup. He might be lying and be a vigi, or a tracker, or scum, or vanilla. Doesn't matter. The only shitty thing is that the person who is jailed doesn't know they were jailed, so I don't know how to confirm his claim.
Regardless, a vote on VE is stupid. It's just like everyone who voted for me when I claimed a guaranteed sane detective with a red check. Only an idiot would vote for said blue unless it was LYLO. It's applicable here. We can't lynch someone who claims such a powerful blue role right now. Is it a shitty claim? Yeah. I don't think it was smart, but we have to roll with it now that it's in the open. Any trackers watch him, I guess.
I'm voting marvel. Pre-EBWOP I just looked at the voting thread prior to hitting post. What the hell is going on? How can you lynch a claimed blue? This is so stupid. If need be I'll vote BM b/c I'm all for lynching someone who's being useless, but for now my vote is resting on marvel.
##vote marvellosity
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It came up in post game chat in LI, and I've never considered it b/c information is information, but why would a no-lynch be bad in this game. Mafia KP isn't determined by the number of people they have alive, it's determined by who their goons are. Aren't accurate lynches therefor that much more necessary? Or is the information gained from a lynch that valuable even in a setup like this.
TL;DR: Get the hell off VE and on to anyone else. I'll no lynch over lynching VE 100%
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On April 23 2012 05:33 Risen wrote:
Honestly johnnywup is my biggest scumread atm Pac. I have no idea why he thinks forwarding another lynch candidate at the last second is a good idea, and it just shits up the thread. Do we take the case against him seriously? Do we try and organize everyone to swap their votes over to zeph even though no one else has mentioned zeph as a serious candidate thus far? We can't do that, we don't have the time.
I know I was against it before, but I don't see how marvel could be pushing a lynch on VE right now. We can't lynch our claimed JK. It's been stated in the thread but I'll state it again. You don't lynch a claimed doctor, and we shouldn't lynch the closest thing we have to a doctor. Is it possible VE is lying? Yup. He might be lying and be a vigi, or a tracker, or scum, or vanilla. Doesn't matter. The only shitty thing is that the person who is jailed doesn't know they were jailed, so I don't know how to confirm his claim.
Regardless, a vote on VE is stupid. It's just like everyone who voted for me when I claimed a guaranteed sane detective with a red check. Only an idiot would vote for said blue unless it was LYLO. It's applicable here. We can't lynch someone who claims such a powerful blue role right now. Is it a shitty claim? Yeah. I don't think it was smart, but we have to roll with it now that it's in the open. Any trackers watch him, I guess.
I'm voting marvel. Pre-EBWOP I just looked at the voting thread prior to hitting post. What the hell is going on? How can you lynch a claimed blue? This is so stupid. If need be I'll vote BM b/c I'm all for lynching someone who's being useless, but for now my vote is resting on marvel.
##vote marvellosity
You are aware that if you act like this then mafia are 100% safe from your vote?
The time you were lynched it was also because you had been shitting up the thread for days and nobody trusted you. Plus when you flipped they had a confirmed red check, so the loss was not so bad. The situations are not particularly comparable. This is far more like day1 of storm mafia.
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@Risen was that your analysis?
How are you going to completely ignore Gonzaw's case on you?
From what you said, your only reason for voting marv is because he voted VE.
I call total bullshit on you dude. Bill Murray voted VE, but you have said NOTHING about him, or the other 6 people who're voting for him.
You're throwing your vote on Marv because he's the fucking scapegoat wagon-train.
Start explaining yourself
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 01:16 gonzaw wrote:Risen:I'd like to lynch Risen and I'll tell you why Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 02:22 Risen wrote:On April 22 2012 01:42 layabout wrote:How are you feeling VE? Any thoughts on marvellosity paqman or mattchew? we need Risen to rise and get posting we need ghost 403 to de-cloak we need St.Daniel to grace us with his presence we need Janaan to get out of bed we need slOosh to stop fapping to Beethoven *we need BroodkingEXE to execute som scum for us we need Bill Murray to get his head in the game we need Zephirrd to tell you guys to stop posting shit we need layabout to stop with the puns lead us to victory Yeah I'm sorry. Just woke up. I'll get posting. Posting lots is pro-town and from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy. I'd rather we put pressure on someone who isn't posting. I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting. From the last page I do have a problem with mementoss' idea. It seems solid but as you said on this page, all vigs would have to get on board. I don't like directing blues in the first place (i realize this game has special stuff going on, though, so I don't think forwarding the idea is scummy. I just don't think we should do it). Another problem with your plan mt is your directing of jailkeepers. By directing jk away from targets and the vigis you give scum a potential three kill night. They can kill the vig, another person, and then if the vigi target is town they get to laugh at us. To sum, don't direct blues. I think there's been enough discussion about it and with no clearly best plan there's no way to get everyone behind one plan. This post is wishy washy as hell. First he starts by being unnecessary apologetic when laya called him out. He posts a very wishy washy statement like "from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy". Really? That's not the town Risen I know of. The town Risen I know of would instantly find people scummy and try to create discussion. Town Risen wouldn't stay neutral and spout wishy washy shit like "I'm not sure who's scummy". Then he keeps trying to appear more "innocent" and neutral by saying things like "I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting". Then the rest of the post is fluff about Mementos' plan. He doesn't seem to have a solid stance on the matter (says things like "I don't like directing blues, though I realize this game has special stuff going on") yet he just keeps talking about it. Also, please note the tone of his post. It seems neutral, but most of all it's not aggressive at all. It seems submisive. Layabout called him out and he seems afraid and posts only because he was called out. Also take notice of the bolded "Posting lots is pro-town" bit, I'll use it later. Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 02:28 Risen wrote:
I don't get your reasoning mt or anyone else's voting for marvel. He's posting and it's very early day 1. There isn't that much to go off of so I don't think he's scummy. I hate lurkers, they always fuck us and it isn't pro-town at all. I'd rather not lynch someone who's here day 1. Posting is pro-town and I don't think we should be scaring people away from posting day 1 bc it just gives people an excuse to be worthless He just barely comments on the marvel issue, but doesn't really take any stances. He keeps up with his "I still don't think anybody is scummy" excuse to avoid taking stances on people. He also doesn't comment on other things happening in the thread, like VE's "case" on me, or my case against VE, or the Paqman/Mattchew issue, nothing. Again, note the bolded bit too. Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 03:04 Risen wrote:On April 22 2012 02:54 layabout wrote:
Anybody feel like Risen is hustlin' us? I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me. ##vote layabout I'm done for now. I'll change my vote if someone does something scummy but I don't see anything and I think someone trying to push a wagon at this point is our best bet. I'll vote for the hydra too. Now here's the kicker. Here he goes against layabout and votes him, and his reason is "I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me"... ...really? I already said how this seems like Toad's play from LI. He ignores current discussion, he avoids taking a stance on the current events, and instead decides to FoS someone completely irrelevant for shitty reasons, and keeps his vote there. This vote only disrupts town because he fails to justify it and derails current discussions. Not only that, but it makes it so he can "justify" his vote and just leave it there, so he can fake trying to contribute. But there's another important thing to take into account: Notice how aggressive he's become against layabout.Why did the tone of his post and his behaviour change so much? In that first post he sounded afraid. Laya called him out and he sounded submissive against him, he was the opposite of aggressive. He posted trying to please laya, had a very neutral tone, was wishy-washy and didn't take any stances. Yet now that layabout points out Risen being suspicious, he flips and goes all crazy against him? Really? I don't buy that change of behaviour, it's inconsisent, it's way too sudden and doesn't make sense with the way he was posting before. Hey, remember that bolded bits I was mentioning before? Here: He says that posting a lot is pro-town, yet he's not following his own advice and is barely posting!So really people, Risen is scum because: - He barely posts at all even though he said posting a lot is pro-town and people should be encouraged to do it
- Starts off wishy washy as hell, sounds very submissive and afraid of being called out, ignores current discussions and doesn't take stances on them, posts uninteresting fluff about directing blues while not even taking a solid stance on the matter
- Makes a very flimsy vote on layabout and doesn't justify it at all
- Has a very sudden change of behaviour. He becomes aggressive very quickly while his previous behaviour was the opposite of that
- He doesn't play like when he does as town at all. As town he posts without fear or hesitation, he actively calls people out and tries whatever he can to get some discussion going. As town he posts more and pushes people more, as town he doesn't park a vote on someone irrelevant for irrelevant reasons and remains hidden for the rest of the day
So people, let's lynch Risen
##Unvote: VisceraEyes
##Vote: Risen
EVERYONE needs to read this shit.
Every single point made in that case is right and Risen so far has ignored all of it.
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On April 23 2012 05:37 Risen wrote:
It came up in post game chat in LI, and I've never considered it b/c information is information, but why would a no-lynch be bad in this game. Mafia KP isn't determined by the number of people they have alive, it's determined by who their goons are. Aren't accurate lynches therefor that much more necessary? Or is the information gained from a lynch that valuable even in a setup like this.
TL;DR: Get the hell off VE and on to anyone else. I'll no lynch over lynching VE 100%
It's a plurality lynch. Unless you get a large number of people to go to the voting thread and ##Vote: NoLynch, it's not even possible. In other words, suggesting a no lynch at this point is hugely unhelpful. I agree that VE probably shouldn't be the lynch today, but someone WILL be lynched.
I really want to see your reads/cases that you promised, because Gonzaw's case looked pretty solid to me.
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Shit's about to go down. I'm going to write up something so I'll be back in a few hours
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Guys, if you believe that VE is being honest then you believe that he wants us to lynch him because he thinks its in town's best interests.
If you believe that he is lying then there is next to no chance that he is town and lynching him is in town's best interests.
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I'm reading gonzaw's post and the first two bullets in the end are characteristic of more than one person. Also, since a huge part of the argument is he's not posting like he usually does as town, could you pull some quotes depicting what you think Risen's "normal" posting is like. Or at least link me to the filter of a Mafia game he was in and I'll take a look.
Also switched my vote in the thread because apparently I forgot to do that 
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On April 23 2012 05:33 Risen wrote:
I know I was against it before, but I don't see how marvel could be pushing a lynch on VE right now. We can't lynch our claimed JK. It's been stated in the thread but I'll state it again. You don't lynch a claimed doctor, and we shouldn't lynch the closest thing we have to a doctor. Is it possible VE is lying? Yup. He might be lying and be a vigi, or a tracker, or scum, or vanilla. Doesn't matter. The only shitty thing is that the person who is jailed doesn't know they were jailed, so I don't know how to confirm his claim.
Regardless, a vote on VE is stupid. It's just like everyone who voted for me when I claimed a guaranteed sane detective with a red check. Only an idiot would vote for said blue unless it was LYLO. It's applicable here. We can't lynch someone who claims such a powerful blue role right now. Is it a shitty claim? Yeah. I don't think it was smart, but we have to roll with it now that it's in the open. Any trackers watch him, I guess.
I'm voting marvel. Pre-EBWOP I just looked at the voting thread prior to hitting post. What the hell is going on? How can you lynch a claimed blue? This is so stupid. If need be I'll vote BM b/c I'm all for lynching someone who's being useless, but for now my vote is resting on marvel.
##vote marvellosity
Risen, the only reason you've given for voting Marv is that he's voting VE. You haven't really even mentioned him before now, you haven't mentioned the other cases on him, just that you don't like his vote. This seems to be a really weak reason to me. What's different about Marv that made you vote him as opposed to the other players voting VE? You even mention that BM is being useless, AND he's voting for VE. Just judging from what you said, he'd be a better vote candidate. There's a total of 7 people voting for VE, are all 7 scummy in your mind (Or 6, since one of those is VE himself)?
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EBWOP:
## Unvote
##Vote: Risen
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I haven't even placed my vote on marv yet >.> It is my intention to do so, though. Everyone on VE should be shot/lynched. I'll vote for anyone on him. Only an idiot would vote for VE and we're better off with all of them dead.
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EPT
