Resistance is also an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game is to find the spies and complete missions without their interference. It's much like a game of poker because the spies are also part of the town during the day and may manipulate the vote to their liking. Town win if 3 out of 5 possible missions end in a success. The spies win if they infiltrate and sabotage 3 missions first.
The game is typically very active, so the thread will get big quickly. However, it is essential to read the thread to play the game. If you do not have the time or patience to read the whole thread, do not play. I will not compensate for ignorance.
Rules:
Cheating: Cheating includes (but is not limited to): 1. Posting after death. You may have one polite goodbye post, but it may not contain any potentially game-changing information. 2. Ruining the game by doing something like hand out your mafia's member list to the town. 3. Logging on to someone else's account to get their role or looking over someone's shoulder to get their role. 4. Comparing role PM times to determine roles. 5. Posting screenshots of your inbox. 6. Posting or sharing any PM you receive from a host. 7. Getting yourself modkilled to help your team. Your non-majority-decided death may not be used as a bargaining chip. 8. Signing up more than once using smurf accounts. 9. Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits. 10. Sharing accounts with other players. Cheating is not tolerated here. The punishment will be severe.
Posting:
Mod Font: This is mod font. It is reserved for moderators. Please do not use it.
Question Font: This is question font. Use it to ask the moderators questions about the rules. Please do us a favor and read the rules before you ask anything.
Activity: You must post in this thread once per day cycle and vote on every team that is suggested. If you fail to vote, you will initially get a warning, if you repeatedly fail to vote then you will be replaced.
Smurfs:
On April 26 2011 13:22 mikeymoo wrote: Smurfs must PM the host because TL doesn't allow multiple accounts otherwise. If the host is unaware of smurfs, you (and/or your smurf) can be banned for having multiple accounts.
Spam: Spam is not tolerated, nor is any off-topic material. Do not discuss Proleague here. Do not talk about Starcraft II here. Play Mafia here.
Editing: Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be modkilled. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting. While I ask for everybody to post as concisely as possible, post again if you have to edit anything.
Inappropriate posts: If you want to post something insulting or inappropriate and know the TL mods would have a problem with it elsewhere, don't post it here. If you do, a host will warn you or modkill you and request that you be banned from future games. The hosts have the final say on what is inappropriate. If you do not like how someone is talking to you, please PM a host, Flamewheel, or Mig before involving the TL staff. If you are unsatisfied with how the situation is resolved, then you can appeal to the TL staff normally.
Reporting posts: The report button is a nice feature for regular TL, but not for this forum. We prefer to deal with things in house if possible to avoid confusion among the TL staff. If you have a problem with how someone is posting, talk to the host, co-host, Flamewheel, or Mig before using your report button. Please do not use your report button for anything other than inappropriate posts which you feel are not being dealt with adequately.
Ban discussions: Please wait until this game is over to talk about modkills and bans resulting from this game.
Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing.
This also means that you cannot leave the game without a good reason without a ban. These situations will be dealt with on a case by case basis. PM your host if you need to leave the game.
You have been warned.
Out of thread communication:
Resistance does NOT use any form of out-of-thread communication, not even between spy members. Communication between spies is handled in the thread.
Voting rules:
1. Voting is done through PMs, sent to both hosts. The Team curren 2. Please keep the vote in the subject of the PM, formated like this: Resistance 2 Team Qatol: Nay or Resistance 2 Team Qatol: Yay. Votes not done in the correct fashion will make the hosts mildly inconvenienced. The result of the vote, and how each player voted, will be revealed after everyone has voted. 3. If you are the current leader, post your suggested team in the team thread. You are guaranteed at least 24 hours for this purpose. Only current leaders and the Hosts may post in this thread. The result of each vote, and how each player voted, will be posted there once the vote has been decided. 4. No conditional voting. 5. You must vote on your own team. You do not have to vote Yay. 6. You may change your vote once cast, if you do before the hosts announce that the vote has been decided. 7. Once everyone has voted, the hosts will reveal the results. A majority of votes (5 Yays) are required to send a team on a mission. If a team is not accepted, then the next leader in line will suggest his team. 8. Voting is mandatory. You may (NOT) abstain. 9. You must vote on each team that is suggested. 10. In the event that a player fails to vote on a team before the deadline set for that particular team, that player is treated as voting Nay.
Sabotage rules:
1. If you are chosen to go on a mission and is a Spy, you are aiding the mission as a default. If you wish to sabotage, inform both hosts in a separate PM, preferably immediately after voting. If a team has been decided on before you have time to inform us of your intent to sabotage, then you are treated as aiding the mission. 2. A mission fails if even one spy sabotages it, exception the 4th mission, which require 2 spies sabotaging to fail. 3. Everyone is informed if the mission succeeded or failed, and exactly how many spies sabotaged the mission.
Signups:
This game is open to anyone. Signups will remain open until all 9 spots have been filled. Signup by posting /in in the thread.
Game-specific rules:
Modkills: This game follows the TL Mafia Ban List. If you are modkilled, your punishment will go beyond being eliminated from this game. Please refer to it for questions about your punishment. If you want to use this game to sit out your ban, please PM Flamewheel or post in the Ban List.
Replacements This game uses replacements instead of modkills if ever possible. The replacement will be one of the players on the replacement list.
Clues: There are (no) clues.
PMs PMs are (not) allowed in this game, apart from votes and questions to the hosts.
Time Cycle: This game will follow a 72 hour nightless cycle. However, each new leader is guaranteed 24 hours to post his team, and a further 24 hours during which the team will be voted on. A leader who doesn´t suggest a team within 24 hours will be skipped and receive a warning. In the event of multiple teams being rejected, it is possible for a day to go on indefinetly. Currently the deadline is 00:00 GMT (+00:00), but that is subject to change. Credits: Thanks to anyone who has ever hosted a game. This list grows ever longer. Thanks to everyone who helped balance this game.
If you have not read all the rules, go back and do so. I will not compensate for ignorance!
Spies know eachothers identity? (same as last game) I can't find it in OP.
There aren't instant majority during the voteperiod? So if 5 players vote "Nay" we still have to wait for the last 4 to vote until we get the result and can put forth a new team?
On February 13 2012 14:28 Janaan wrote: /in I haven't played Mafia yet, but this looks like fun too!
It´s a simple setup, just make sure to read the thread often. Unlike normal Mafia, this one features multiple votes each day, with sometimes only 24 hours before you have to chime in with your own vote.
On February 13 2012 17:18 Dirkzor wrote: Question(s):
Spies know eachothers identity? (same as last game) I can't find it in OP.
There aren't instant majority during the voteperiod? So if 5 players vote "Nay" we still have to wait for the last 4 to vote until we get the result and can put forth a new team?
Spies know eachother, they just can´t communicate secretly.
The result is not revealed until everyone has voted, partly because how people vote should be public knowledge, and partly because they may change their vote before everyone else has voted. Even if we get 8 Yay votes, we´ll wait until the current deadline, or the last one votes, before posting the results.
Just as a pre-emptive meta note, I'm deliberately going to work on not spamming this game. I'm still going to be highly active, but having 30 pages of filter in a 150 page game with 18 players is not gonna happen this time around. I consider this important to improving my game, especially given how I played in the last Resistance game. So if someone's like "Blazinghand isn't spamming, he must be scum" I want you to bear in mind that I'm not spamming either way this game.
Just as a pre-emptive meta note, I'm deliberately going to work on not spamming this game. I'm still going to be highly active, but having 30 pages of filter in a 150 page game with 18 players is not gonna happen this time around. I consider this important to improving my game, especially given how I played in the last Resistance game. So if someone's like "Blazinghand isn't spamming, he must be scum" I want you to bear in mind that I'm not spamming either way this game.
Just as a pre-emptive meta note, I'm deliberately going to work on not spamming this game. I'm still going to be highly active, but having 30 pages of filter in a 150 page game with 18 players is not gonna happen this time around. I consider this important to improving my game, especially given how I played in the last Resistance game. So if someone's like "Blazinghand isn't spamming, he must be scum" I want you to bear in mind that I'm not spamming either way this game.
*everyone breathes a sigh of relief*
again with this? lol
That's the last time I'm posting that. I'm posting it here because in particular I was pretty bad during Resistance I. I consider it part of my active quest to be a better player.
question: in the board game version, they had special event cards that helped resistance have a fighting chance at winning. do forum style resistance games not require this for balancing?
On February 15 2012 14:40 EchelonTee wrote: question: in the board game version, they had special event cards that helped resistance have a fighting chance at winning. do forum style resistance games not require this for balancing?
We´re not planning to use Plot Thickens in this game, instead opting for more time for Town to figure out where Spies hide. We could add them to the game by popular demand, but that would slow the game down somewhat. I don´t think it´s needed, but would definetly help town.
It was cramped, cold, and damp in the cellar. The core of the Second Resistance Front was gathered inside the old, moldy bunker. There were many new faces, after the entire First Resistance Front were brutally crushed to death by a buffalo stampede the year before. Despite the danger, they were all bound together by their anger at the unjust occupation of their beloved city.
Navillus, the charismatic leader of the Second Resistance Front, stood up from his seat at the front of the table.
"This has gone on long enough! They think they have us beaten, but we will stand up from under their boot, and they will know that it is not cockroaches they tread on, but men! We will put a stop to the Invaders, and their inhumane treatment of the people, because people, unlike cockroaches, bite back!"
His throat parched, Navillus took a sip from his cup of exquisite, british tea, recently smuggled into the city during a daring operation by the Resistance Front.
"The day after tomorrow, the first anniversary of the defeat of the First Resistance Front is held at the main square. We will strike a crippling blow to their celebration! Tomorrow night, a team of three brave Soldiers of the Resistance will, under the cover of the night, blow up Emanuels Fireworks Shop! It is a dangerous mission, I don´t expect all of you to return alive, but know this; though you die, the Second Resistance Front lives on!"
Navillus if the first leader. Submit your team in this thread.
Vote on teams in PMs to both hosts. The vote is decided when everyone has voted.
The current deadline for the day is 23 february, 00:00 GMT (+00:00), but this is likely to be extended.
Since we don't have a team up yet it's hard to discuss whether its a good or a bad team (also because we have had no discussion). So why the nay vote? O_o Considering that everyone will be town in their own eyes the best team you can possible get right now is one where you yourself are on since you know your own alignment.
I would likely support any team with me on it as it guarentees 1/3 town right there.
Any team that fails the mission the person who suggested the team should automaticly be under suspicion, even if the team is without that person (or perhaps especially so).
On February 19 2012 18:56 Dirkzor wrote: Yay... We're going to blow up that anniversary!
Since we don't have a team up yet it's hard to discuss whether its a good or a bad team (also because we have had no discussion). So why the nay vote? O_o Considering that everyone will be town in their own eyes the best team you can possible get right now is one where you yourself are on since you know your own alignment.
I would likely support any team with me on it as it guarentees 1/3 town right there.
Any team that fails the mission the person who suggested the team should automaticly be under suspicion, even if the team is without that person (or perhaps especially so).
The idea that someone would suggest a team that doesn't include themselves is utterly preposterous. If you're town-aligned, there is no reason you would possibly suggest a team that doesn't contain yourself, as your alignment is the only alignment you can confirm. It would be an unimaginably bad move to suggest a team without yourself. Given what you said earlier in your post I'm surprised you didn't figure this out yourself.
I would not be averse to change my vote to a "yay" depending on the team I see.
On February 19 2012 18:56 Dirkzor wrote: Yay... We're going to blow up that anniversary!
Since we don't have a team up yet it's hard to discuss whether its a good or a bad team (also because we have had no discussion). So why the nay vote? O_o Considering that everyone will be town in their own eyes the best team you can possible get right now is one where you yourself are on since you know your own alignment.
I would likely support any team with me on it as it guarentees 1/3 town right there.
Any team that fails the mission the person who suggested the team should automaticly be under suspicion, even if the team is without that person (or perhaps especially so).
The idea that someone would suggest a team that doesn't include themselves is utterly preposterous. If you're town-aligned, there is no reason you would possibly suggest a team that doesn't contain yourself, as your alignment is the only alignment you can confirm. It would be an unimaginably bad move to suggest a team without yourself. Given what you said earlier in your post I'm surprised you didn't figure this out yourself.
I would not be averse to change my vote to a "yay" depending on the team I see.
That being said, unless I see a team I like, I'm just gonna "nay" everyone until it's my turn to suggest a team, since that's the only way I can know 100% that the guy setting up the team isn't scum. When you make your team, make a good case for it. I hope to see Navillus in the thread pushing his ideas, getting reads and stuff before committing to a team. A baseless team suggestion will have well earned my Nay vote.
Furthermore, the deadline is a little flexible since we will be going through several rounds of team suggesting / rejecting / argumentation today (probably).
I never said I would suggest a team without myself on it. As you said it would be stupid as I can only confirm my own allignment. (As for now. I can see situation later in the game where suggesting a team without myself might be beneficial to town) But that does not invalidate my point. If you suggest a team, and that mission fail, everyone on the team should be under suspicion - agree? But you (the teamleader) even more since you might be privy to more information then the rest of us if you are scum.
If it so happened that you suggested a team without youself on it and it still failed you would be even more suspicious.
Your point about Nay voting every team until you can make your own team are bad. I agree it would be smart to be teamleader so you are sure that no scum are the leader but we will never get a mission going if everyone thinks like that.
Any team should include me, because I'm basically confirmed town.
Also, very easy to hide for scum this game, but meh. It actually feels a lot harder as scum than you might think. I know I never felt secure even with how well the last game went for scummy people.
So we can still scumhunt, and we can still be useful. Really, this game should be easier than normal mafia, all I have to do is find 2 townies for the first day and BAM I got this.
Look out scum, I got this game and you can't kill me.
No out-of-thread communication, I like the sound of that.
Your point about Nay voting every team until you can make your own team are bad. I agree it would be smart to be teamleader so you are sure that no scum are the leader but we will never get a mission going if everyone thinks like that.
[QUOTE]On February 20 2012 00:49 prplhz wrote: Hi guys
I'm just a regular townie, nothing to worry about here. As such, I should be on night1 team. [QUOTE]
What purpose do you have for posting that?! And with colors?! Claiming to be town is what anyone would do at this point in the game. Adding on colors and "Nothing to worry about here" just rubs me the wrong way... Even if you call me town...
On February 19 2012 20:01 Dirkzor wrote: But that does not invalidate my point. If you suggest a team, and that mission fail, everyone on the team should be under suspicion - agree? But you (the teamleader) even more since you might be privy to more information then the rest of us if you are scum.
If it so happened that you suggested a team without youself on it and it still failed you would be even more suspicious.
If you suggest a team without yourself you clearly don't understand how this game works. I will definitely nayvote any team that doesn't include the guy suggesting it lol. The fact that you consider the situation where the leader isn't on the team means you need to think about the setup more. The leader knows his own alignment-- why would he ever under any circumstances not include himself on his own team???
On February 19 2012 20:01 Dirkzor wrote: Your point about Nay voting every team until you can make your own team are bad. I agree it would be smart to be teamleader so you are sure that no scum are the leader but we will never get a mission going if everyone thinks like that.
On February 19 2012 23:24 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: No out-of-thread communication, I like the sound of that.
Your point about Nay voting every team until you can make your own team are bad. I agree it would be smart to be teamleader so you are sure that no scum are the leader but we will never get a mission going if everyone thinks like that.
This.
You guys didn't read my post. Unless a team is good I will nayvote it. I haven't seen a good team suggested yet so I will nayvote until I see one. I'd prefer to be the leader myself but if a well-reasoned, good team is suggested I can make do with not being the leader.
I'm just a regular townie, nothing to worry about here. As such, I should be on night1 team.
What purpose do you have for posting that?! And with colors?! Claiming to be town is what anyone would do at this point in the game. Adding on colors and "Nothing to worry about here" just rubs me the wrong way... Even if you call me town...
Dirkzor makes a mostly reasonable point that we are all implicitly claiming town. That being said, I think prplhz is just posting to post. You'll also note Palmar also calls himself confirmed town. People are gonna start the conversation how they're gonna start it-- prplhz by unnecessarily claiming town, Dirkzor by making largely uninformed criticisms of other players, and me be being correct, sexy, witty, and basically just a winner in life.
That being said, unless I see a team I like, I'm just gonna "nay" everyone until it's my turn to suggest a team, since that's the only way I can know 100% that the guy setting up the team isn't scum. When you make your team, make a good case for it. I hope to see Navillus in the thread pushing his ideas, getting reads and stuff before committing to a team. A baseless team suggestion will have well earned my Nay vote.
Furthermore, the deadline is a little flexible since we will be going through several rounds of team suggesting / rejecting / argumentation today (probably).
The single biggest thing that will help us win this game is if scum do sabotage a mission, and we learn exactly how many spies are in that team after it fails.. Getting reads will be difficult, as the setup is so drastically different from a standard mafia game: no lynches, no night kills, just team picking.
However, I certainly agree with you on Navillus. Whoever the day's leader is needs to be present and active in discussing their pick, or else they've wasted our time.
That being said, unless I see a team I like, I'm just gonna "nay" everyone until it's my turn to suggest a team, since that's the only way I can know 100% that the guy setting up the team isn't scum. When you make your team, make a good case for it. I hope to see Navillus in the thread pushing his ideas, getting reads and stuff before committing to a team. A baseless team suggestion will have well earned my Nay vote.
Furthermore, the deadline is a little flexible since we will be going through several rounds of team suggesting / rejecting / argumentation today (probably).
The single biggest thing that will help us win this game is if scum do sabotage a mission, and we learn exactly how many spies are in that team after it fails.. Getting reads will be difficult, as the setup is so drastically different from a standard mafia game: no lynches, no night kills, just team picking.
However, I certainly agree with you on Navillus. Whoever the day's leader is needs to be present and active in discussing their pick, or else they've wasted our time.
Well, we learn how many scum there are minimum on that team. Scum can hold fire on their sabotages, which is what they will try do if there are multiple scum on the same team.
OK so you need to think about the setup more. Having played previously in Resistance I, let me tell you that having a single sabotage on D1 is actually kind of confusing, since there's no way to tell which player was mafia. In that game, the saboteur ended up being picked up for the D2 team as well, due to some phenomenally bad play on my part ;_; The point is though our ideal D1 team is 3 town for sure. 1 scum doesn't give us any info, but 0 scum means that the other 3 MUST be among the 6 who weren't picked for the D1 team, which is an enormous amount of info.
I expect every leader to suggest a team that he believes contains exactly 0 scum players.
Well, we learn how many scum there are minimum on that team. Scum can hold fire on their sabotages, which is what they will try do if there are multiple scum on the same team.
OK so you need to think about the setup more. Having played previously in Resistance I, let me tell you that having a single sabotage on D1 is actually kind of confusing, since there's no way to tell which player was mafia. In that game, the saboteur ended up being picked up for the D2 team as well, due to some phenomenally bad play on my part ;_; The point is though our ideal D1 team is 3 town for sure. 1 scum doesn't give us any info, but 0 scum means that the other 3 MUST be among the 6 who weren't picked for the D1 team, which is an enormous amount of info.
I expect every leader to suggest a team that he believes contains exactly 0 scum players.
According to this thinking, we're screwed if there are scum on the team and none of them sabotage.
Well, we learn how many scum there are minimum on that team. Scum can hold fire on their sabotages, which is what they will try do if there are multiple scum on the same team.
OK so you need to think about the setup more. Having played previously in Resistance I, let me tell you that having a single sabotage on D1 is actually kind of confusing, since there's no way to tell which player was mafia. In that game, the saboteur ended up being picked up for the D2 team as well, due to some phenomenally bad play on my part ;_; The point is though our ideal D1 team is 3 town for sure. 1 scum doesn't give us any info, but 0 scum means that the other 3 MUST be among the 6 who weren't picked for the D1 team, which is an enormous amount of info.
I expect every leader to suggest a team that he believes contains exactly 0 scum players.
According to this thinking, we're screwed if there are scum on the team and none of them sabotage.
Your point is dumb and I'm not going to go into details because it may help scumteam figure out strats.
Hey all, for those who have read/played in the first game, would you guys say that it's worth reading to get an idea of the general strategy or would it be fine to jump right in?
Since the scum team needs to sabotage 3/5 missions, wouldn't it make the most sense to roll with the same group of players until a mission fails? It's not like the scum team can afford to infiltrate a mission and not have it pass, especially with the fourth mission requirements.
Game 1 was kinda a shitstorm. If you want to read it go ahead, there was some good policy discussion at the start imo.
It's not written in the op currently but is this correct? Day 1: Three people Day 2: Four people Day 3: Four people Day 4: Five people [2 spies needed to sabotage] Day 5: Five people [1 spy needed to sabotage]
Yeah basically. Also Day 4 is kinda a gimme for town-- if there's 1 spy you can still succeed. If you managed to pick a scum-free team on day 3, you can add one more person to it and get a free pass for day 4 regardless of the alignment of the fifth guy.
How I imagine a "balanced" playthrough would go would be we get sabotaged Day 1 and 2, but that gives us the info for a bulletproof Day 3 team, which means we get a solid Day 4 team, then we go into Day 5 in a 2-2 situation.
But really what this means is that if we get it right on Day 2, we WIN. We pick the same team for Day 3, then add a guy for Day 4. If we get it right on Day 1 then it's basically a party :D
I'm just a regular townie, nothing to worry about here. As such, I should be on night1 team.
What purpose do you have for posting that?! And with colors?! Claiming to be town is what anyone would do at this point in the game. Adding on colors and "Nothing to worry about here" just rubs me the wrong way... Even if you call me town...
Dirkzor makes a mostly reasonable point that we are all implicitly claiming town. That being said, I think prplhz is just posting to post. You'll also note Palmar also calls himself confirmed town. People are gonna start the conversation how they're gonna start it-- prplhz by unnecessarily claiming town, Dirkzor by making largely uninformed criticisms of other players, and me be being correct, sexy, witty, and basically just a winner in life.
It's not the fact that he claimed to be town. As I wrote any sane person would claim that now. + Show Spoiler +
Claiming day vig would be an awesome claim though
Its the way he claimed it. Adding colors and emphasis on the fact. Just stood out to me and i pointed it out.
And Blazinghand, if you can't see a scenario where suggesting a team without yourself on it (not day 1) you have clearly not thought the setup through!
On February 20 2012 05:25 Dirkzor wrote: And Blazinghand, if you can't see a scenario where suggesting a team without yourself on it (not day 1) you have clearly not thought the setup through!
Help me out then. When would you, a town player, ever suggest a team that doesn't include yourself?
On February 20 2012 06:06 Dirkzor wrote: Lets say the day 2 team complete the mission. Why would i change that team for day 3 - even if i was not included in the day 2 team?
Okay, and in that situation, you're imagining the team will fail?
On February 20 2012 06:06 Dirkzor wrote: Lets say the day 2 team complete the mission. Why would i change that team for day 3 - even if i was not included in the day 2 team?
This is correct, I believe. If a team is successful with 0 spies sabotaging it, that team goes again.
On February 20 2012 06:06 Dirkzor wrote: Lets say the day 2 team complete the mission. Why would i change that team for day 3 - even if i was not included in the day 2 team?
This is correct, I believe. If a team is successful with 0 spies sabotaging it, that team goes again.
Yeah, but Dirkzor's point is "I think that if such a team fails it's the fault of the guy who picked it, we should be suspicious of him" and I'm not sure that's the case. Obviously we should be suspicious but like if something's a reasonable choice anyone would make (as in that particular instance) then dirk is wrong
On February 20 2012 06:06 Dirkzor wrote: Lets say the day 2 team complete the mission. Why would i change that team for day 3 - even if i was not included in the day 2 team?
This is correct, I believe. If a team is successful with 0 spies sabotaging it, that team goes again.
Yeah, but Dirkzor's point is "I think that if such a team fails it's the fault of the guy who picked it, we should be suspicious of him" and I'm not sure that's the case. Obviously we should be suspicious but like if something's a reasonable choice anyone would make (as in that particular instance) then dirk is wrong
If a Leader's team is sabotaged, they and everyone who voted "Yay" should immediately be placed under scrutiny. That's simply common sense. Should they be eliminated from future teams? No. I think you're exaggerating the point Dirk has made to black and white, when of course there will be grey areas.
On February 20 2012 06:06 Dirkzor wrote: Lets say the day 2 team complete the mission. Why would i change that team for day 3 - even if i was not included in the day 2 team?
This is correct, I believe. If a team is successful with 0 spies sabotaging it, that team goes again.
Yeah, but Dirkzor's point is "I think that if such a team fails it's the fault of the guy who picked it, we should be suspicious of him" and I'm not sure that's the case. Obviously we should be suspicious but like if something's a reasonable choice anyone would make (as in that particular instance) then dirk is wrong
If a Leader's team is sabotaged, they and everyone who voted "Yay" should immediately be placed under scrutiny. That's simply common sense. Should they be eliminated from future teams? No. I think you're exaggerating the point Dirk has made to black and white, when of course there will be grey areas.
Really? You think that someone who revotes in a 4-man team that was successful D2 that then failed D3 should be "immedately placed under scrutiny"? I think it's honestly an more anti-town move to vote Nay on a team we know has been successful, even if that team goes on to fail, unless you have some seriously good reasoning for it.
If on D3 we had a D2 success, I would be very VERY suspicious of anyone who was nayvoting a re-suggestion of the D2 team, and they better have some incredibly good reasoning.
On February 20 2012 06:30 Blazinghand wrote: Really? You think that someone who revotes in a 4-man team that was successful D2 that then failed D3 should be "immedately placed under scrutiny"? I think it's honestly an more anti-town move to vote Nay on a team we know has been successful, even if that team goes on to fail, unless you have some seriously good reasoning for it.
If on D3 we had a D2 success, I would be very VERY suspicious of anyone who was nayvoting a re-suggestion of the D2 team, and they better have some incredibly good reasoning.
On February 20 2012 06:06 Dirkzor wrote: Lets say the day 2 team complete the mission. Why would i change that team for day 3 - even if i was not included in the day 2 team?
Okay, and in that situation, you're imagining the team will fail?
Wat?
On February 20 2012 06:18 Blazinghand wrote: got you there don't I
On February 20 2012 06:06 Dirkzor wrote: Lets say the day 2 team complete the mission. Why would i change that team for day 3 - even if i was not included in the day 2 team?
This is correct, I believe. If a team is successful with 0 spies sabotaging it, that team goes again.
Yeah, but Dirkzor's point is "I think that if such a team fails it's the fault of the guy who picked it, we should be suspicious of him" and I'm not sure that's the case. Obviously we should be suspicious but like if something's a reasonable choice anyone would make (as in that particular instance) then dirk is wrong
If a Leader's team is sabotaged, they and everyone who voted "Yay" should immediately be placed under scrutiny. That's simply common sense. Should they be eliminated from future teams? No. I think you're exaggerating the point Dirk has made to black and white, when of course there will be grey areas.
Really? You think that someone who revotes in a 4-man team that was successful D2 that then failed D3 should be "immedately placed under scrutiny"? I think it's honestly an more anti-town move to vote Nay on a team we know has been successful, even if that team goes on to fail, unless you have some seriously good reasoning for it.
If on D3 we had a D2 success, I would be very VERY suspicious of anyone who was nayvoting a re-suggestion of the D2 team, and they better have some incredibly good reasoning.
Either I am mis-reading or you are... Or maybe you just don't make sense.
As I read this: D2 team of 4 persons succeeds then you want the same 4 persons to go on D3 mission. So if you are leader D3 you would send the same 4 persons as on D2? Even if you yourself were not on the team D2? Wasn't that exactly what I wrote?
I'm saying the scenario you describe is unreasonable. If someone suggests a team for D3 and it is the same as the successful team for D2, and it fails, do you really think that that person deserves extra scrutiny (over, say, the members of the team that failed, or people who voted yay, or some hypothetical person that voted nay)? I'd believe that a D3 team that's the same as a D2 team would succeed, and anyone who votes against it better have a great reason or clearly there's something afoot. I think the situation you described initially basically is pretty unlikely to happen, and if it did happen, the correct response is not the one you delineated.
I see Blaze is town from how spammy he is - sounding exactly as he did in Resistance 1. And unless Palmar's scum play has improved dramatically, he's pretty much confirmed town now to me too.
Palmar's right, this should be E-Z-P-Z.
chaos13 is looking pretty bad imo. Am I seeing things? Examples to follow.
You said that you couldn't see a way to EVER put out a team without yourself on it. I gave a good reason for doing exactly that.
I never said that only in that scenario I wrote should the leader be under extra suspicion. Its two opinions.
1) you can put up a team without yourself and still be doing the best for town
2) if a leader put up a team and the team fails - even if the leader was not on the team - the leader should be under suspicion.
I agree that sending the same team as the one that just succeeded is the best play, so anyone doing that would be doing the pro town thing to do.
(The example I used was just that. An example. I can see atleast 1 other scenario where I would consider not putting myself on the team if I thought it was best for town.)
That being said, unless I see a team I like, I'm just gonna "nay" everyone until it's my turn to suggest a team, since that's the only way I can know 100% that the guy setting up the team isn't scum. When you make your team, make a good case for it. I hope to see Navillus in the thread pushing his ideas, getting reads and stuff before committing to a team. A baseless team suggestion will have well earned my Nay vote.
Furthermore, the deadline is a little flexible since we will be going through several rounds of team suggesting / rejecting / argumentation today (probably).
The single biggest thing that will help us win this game is if scum do sabotage a mission, and we learn exactly how many spies are in that team after it fails.. Getting reads will be difficult, as the setup is so drastically different from a standard mafia game: no lynches, no night kills, just team picking.
However, I certainly agree with you on Navillus. Whoever the day's leader is needs to be present and active in discussing their pick, or else they've wasted our time.
What bothers me about this post is how he simultaneously seems to know what's going to help us "win the game", yet thinks the game is going to be more difficult "as the setup is so drastically different".
To me, the game is essentially the same - you don't lynch anyone, but if enough people think someone is scum that person isn't going on any of the teams and they're essentially "lynched" from participating in the missions. Scumhunting is pretty much identical, you're just getting your information from success or failure of a mission rather than someone flipping and not surviving to give you FURTHER information.
So, yeah. FoS: chaos13
I'll be Nay-voting any teams that include this guy for the time-being.
On February 20 2012 07:04 VisceraEyes wrote: I see Blaze is town from how spammy he is - sounding exactly as he did in Resistance 1. And unless Palmar's scum play has improved dramatically, he's pretty much confirmed town now to me too.
Palmar's right, this should be E-Z-P-Z.
chaos13 is looking pretty bad imo. Am I seeing things? Examples to follow.
Chaos13 has been worthless imo. Pending further information I will Nay any vote with him on it.
If someone submits a team that doesn't include themselves, they can explain their reasoning. You're spamming the thread arguing about it in my honest and humble opinion.
On February 20 2012 04:06 chaos13 wrote: The single biggest thing that will help us win this game is if scum do sabotage a mission, and we learn exactly how many spies are in that team after it fails.. Getting reads will be difficult, as the setup is so drastically different from a standard mafia game: no lynches, no night kills, just team picking.
However, I certainly agree with you on Navillus. Whoever the day's leader is needs to be present and active in discussing their pick, or else they've wasted our time.
What bothers me about this post is how he simultaneously seems to know what's going to help us "win the game", yet thinks the game is going to be more difficult "as the setup is so drastically different".
To me, the game is essentially the same - you don't lynch anyone, but if enough people think someone is scum that person isn't going on any of the teams and they're essentially "lynched" from participating in the missions. Scumhunting is pretty much identical, you're just getting your information from success or failure of a mission rather than someone flipping and not surviving to give you FURTHER information.
So, yeah. FoS: chaos13
I'll be Nay-voting any teams that include this guy for the time-being.
Would you rather I said I think the game will be more difficult and left it at that? You're FoS'ing me because I'm attempting to figure stuff out. That's a load of bullshit.
Come on chaos, that's not what I'm doing. I'm FoSing you because I think you're trying too hard to appear town with apprehension - or maybe it's genuine apprehension because you can't speak with your buddies.
And it's just a little finger choas, no harm in one guy's little finger, right?
I like Dirkzor. He's been keeping the ball rolling, engaging others, etc. and right now he's looking green to me.
Chaos is being fluffy but I'm not too sure he's an outright spy.
Blazinghand's a bit stubborn, but he knows he wants. That could really go either way, but you generally see that kind of behavior on townies, so I'd put him in as guy #3.
On February 20 2012 04:20 Navillus wrote: Oh wow I've been busy for a bit and haven't been on TL in a couple days, it's really lucky that I went on today. Anyway
Can I put forward team members one by one, or do I have to put all 3 at once and do I only get to put forth 1 team idea?
You have to submit the whole team at once. You can´t change the team once submitted.
On February 20 2012 07:04 VisceraEyes wrote: I see Blaze is town from how spammy he is - sounding exactly as he did in Resistance 1.
Buddying.
On February 20 2012 07:04 VisceraEyes wrote: And unless Palmar's scum play has improved dramatically, he's pretty much confirmed town now to me too.
Buddying.
On February 20 2012 09:23 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I like Dirkzor. He's been keeping the ball rolling, engaging others, etc. and right now he's looking green to me.
Buddying.
On February 20 2012 09:26 Blazinghand wrote: I like Dirkzor actually. I think he articulated his point and defended it adequately. I would approve of a team that included Dirkzor.
Buddying.
On February 20 2012 10:31 Palmar wrote: dirkzor and me confirmed town, let's find one more.
Buddying.
Oh I get how this works.
Nav, Palmar, dirk, VE you so town. Include me on your list! thx <3
I'm just pointing out that calling other people town after 2 and a half pages is just a way create a false sense of trust. Scum do it all the time in normal games, so why is it allowed in a game like this where buddying up to other players can be even more effective. I'm fine if someone thinks someone else is town based on a real case after something of substance has been actually said, but right now it just seems like a way to build up relationships.
I'm going to assume you're town for the moment and give you some advice.
Let's talk about a little thing called a pro-town atmosphere. You should all know what this is, and how it benefits town. I want to see it happen. Let's all get rid of the sarcasm and aggressive tones, and try working together to win the game. Can we all do that? Good.
So, we agree on one thing at least: If a team made of A, B, and C successfully completes a mission, that means that A, B, and C are chosen again, even if Leader D has to exclude themselves. If there are any arguments against this, make them clear now.
Navillus, before we start bickering and WIFOM'ing any more, please submit a team selection.
On February 20 2012 10:53 kitaman27 wrote: I'm just pointing out that calling other people town after 2 and a half pages is just a way create a false sense of trust. Scum do it all the time in normal games, so why is it allowed in a game like this where buddying up to other players can be even more effective. I'm fine if someone thinks someone else is town based on a real case after something of substance has been actually said, but right now it just seems like a way to build up relationships.
The reason we don't do it in normal games is because it helps pick good kills for the mafia overnight - as this is something we don't have to worry about in this game, I see no problem pointing out when you feel like someone is town.
That being said, do you disagree with my assessment of Palmar or Blaze' initial posts/posting style Kitaman? Or were you just slipping in to try and throw some undue suspicion my way just because? <3
That's not applicable until day3 at least. Lets take one day at a time.
Also:
1 scum 2 townies chosen for team day1, no sabotage. night1 team + extra townie chosen for team day2, sabotaged, extra townie subject to suspicion night1 team + another extra townie chosen for team day3, sabotaged, extra townie subject to suspicion
Why are you even talking about this shit now? You want to tell scum how we will treat future situations so that they can choose whatever benefits them the most?
On February 20 2012 10:57 chaos13 wrote: I'm going to assume you're town for the moment and give you some advice.
Let's talk about a little thing called a pro-town atmosphere. You should all know what this is, and how it benefits town. I want to see it happen. Let's all get rid of the sarcasm and aggressive tones, and try working together to win the game. Can we all do that? Good.
So, we agree on one thing at least: If a team made of A, B, and C successfully completes a mission, that means that A, B, and C are chosen again, even if Leader D has to exclude themselves. If there are any arguments against this, make them clear now.
Navillus, before we start bickering and WIFOM'ing any more, please submit a team selection.
Aggressive tone means we're sure of ourselves instead of just going along with someone else.
Also, I have an argument and I'm making it clear now.
First night - 3 people Second night - 4 people
Right?
Let's say A, B and C go on a mission and complete it successfully. Then D comes along for night 2, and that mission fails. D will get most/all of the blame since he wasn't on the successful team, even if the real spy is A, B or C and just chose not to sabotage to gain trust.
On February 20 2012 11:07 prplhz wrote: Also, I actually called him scum because he's trying to do something that will benefit scum but not town. You just explained some setup stuff.
Why just me? Why not Dirk and Blazinghand, who are the ones who originally brought it up?
On February 20 2012 10:53 kitaman27 wrote: I'm just pointing out that calling other people town after 2 and a half pages is just a way create a false sense of trust. Scum do it all the time in normal games, so why is it allowed in a game like this where buddying up to other players can be even more effective. I'm fine if someone thinks someone else is town based on a real case after something of substance has been actually said, but right now it just seems like a way to build up relationships.
The reason we don't do it in normal games is because it helps pick good kills for the mafia overnight - as this is something we don't have to worry about in this game, I see no problem pointing out when you feel like someone is town.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm not arguing that we can't be calling people town. I'm arguing we can't allow people to call other people town unless they give a legitimate reason.
Suppose I call player X town because "I like what he is saying". It's human nature for player X to now trust me more. I've now given up absolutely nothing in exchange for player X's approval.
On February 20 2012 11:01 VisceraEyes wrote: That being said, do you disagree with my assessment of Palmar or Blaze' initial posts/posting style Kitaman?
I'm not sure I'd really call that an assessment. You mention that blazing is spammy and that Palmar is a bad scum, but that doesn't really mean much to me alignment wise until they provide some meaningful content.
On February 20 2012 11:01 VisceraEyes wrote: Or were you just slipping in to try and throw some undue suspicion my way just because? <3
Notice how you automatically trust me less now that I called you out on something? If I had simply gone along and mentioned how I agree with your application of meta to the other players, you'd probably think better of me.
I'm glad for all the love I get this thread.. Must mean I'm doing something right =) But I do agree with kita. This overly buddying thing... just rubs me the wrong way. That was also why I called out prphlz out on his first post. It was a post just meant to be enhancing the effect that prphlz was town without him actually doing any pro town actions.
"The first time someone calls you a horse you punch him on the nose, the second time someone calls you a horse you call him a jerk but the third time someone calls you a horse, well then perhaps it's time to go shopping for a saddle."
The third time someone calls themself town I'll buy them a saddle...
Dirkzor, you can drop that "you're less town because you said you're town" now because you're really grasping as something that just isn't there. Did you ever experience that anybody thought that somebody else was more town just because he said so?
Why aren't you calling Palmar out on it? He has said it twice, and he's a lot better and more experienced than I am, he should know that this is as wrong that you claim it to be, right?
Right?
I'm naying any team with chaos13 in it by the way. I'm leaning spy on him. Anyway, Navilus sucks and I doubt I'm going to yay any team he might make unless it's the exact same team that I'd make. With his activity and commitment I wouldn't trust him to tie his own shoelaces.
Like I need to re-read this a bit, but I might be ready to take responsibility for that team. please allow me a few hours to become completely certain. I might swap out BH.
Palmar have you thought more about that team...? I would like more reasoning then "I like this team".
Prplhz - my last post was not an attack on you by any means but I can see how it could be perceived that way. I just used you as an example to emphasize my point.
What's the holdup Nav? Nobody around in scum irc to give suggestions?
It seems likely that a scum player would be less likely to nominate a player from there own team or approve a team with multiple scum players. If the day one or two fails, and there are two scum players in the group, that leaves only one trusted scum player for the final three days. We might be able to use this fact later on when looking at the team voting or locate a scum which votes nay to a team he was included on.
Okay, I'm pleased with Kita's reasponses. I'm still underwhelmed with chaos. "Why? WHY?" isn't as convincing as I thought it was in [REDACTED], and that's the kind of feeling I'm picking up from chaos13 right now in addition to scummy vibes.
It's no offense choas, and I'm not beyond reason - I just don't feel good about voting you on D1 team, that's all. Change my mind bro...NOT by asking "Why?!"
On February 20 2012 10:53 kitaman27 wrote: I'm just pointing out that calling other people town after 2 and a half pages is just a way create a false sense of trust. Scum do it all the time in normal games, so why is it allowed in a game like this where buddying up to other players can be even more effective. I'm fine if someone thinks someone else is town based on a real case after something of substance has been actually said, but right now it just seems like a way to build up relationships.
The reason we don't do it in normal games is because it helps pick good kills for the mafia overnight - as this is something we don't have to worry about in this game, I see no problem pointing out when you feel like someone is town.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm not arguing that we can't be calling people town. I'm arguing we can't allow people to call other people town unless they give a legitimate reason.
Suppose I call player X town because "I like what he is saying". It's human nature for player X to now trust me more. I've now given up absolutely nothing in exchange for player X's approval.
On February 20 2012 11:01 VisceraEyes wrote: That being said, do you disagree with my assessment of Palmar or Blaze' initial posts/posting style Kitaman?
I'm not sure I'd really call that an assessment. You mention that blazing is spammy and that Palmar is a bad scum, but that doesn't really mean much to me alignment wise until they provide some meaningful content.
On February 20 2012 11:01 VisceraEyes wrote: Or were you just slipping in to try and throw some undue suspicion my way just because? <3
Notice how you automatically trust me less now that I called you out on something? If I had simply gone along and mentioned how I agree with your application of meta to the other players, you'd probably think better of me.
I've found that saying you trust someone is something scum tend to do, but typically scum are careful about how they do it. It's atypical for scum to come right out and say they trust someone in their first post, specifically because they don't want to appear to be "buddying" and have knowledge of peoples' alignments.
When compared with a post like this one
On February 20 2012 10:57 chaos13 wrote: I'm going to assume you're town for the moment and give you some advice.
Let's talk about a little thing called a pro-town atmosphere. You should all know what this is, and how it benefits town. I want to see it happen. Let's all get rid of the sarcasm and aggressive tones, and try working together to win the game. Can we all do that? Good.
So, we agree on one thing at least: If a team made of A, B, and C successfully completes a mission, that means that A, B, and C are chosen again, even if Leader D has to exclude themselves. If there are any arguments against this, make them clear now.
Navillus, before we start bickering and WIFOM'ing any more, please submit a team selection.
Specifically where he says "going to assume you're town"
I'm not just "assuming" that Palmar and Blaze are town. I have a specific reason for thinking both are town. Perhaps chaos does too regarding Blazinghand, but he doesn't say as much - only "assumes" he's town and gives him some generic advice.
Until we see some activity from Nav, I'm going to be looking into Dirkzor as Palmar is the next leader and Dirk is the only one I haven't looked into on Palmar's presently proposed participant platform.
Dirk is the most questionable of any of Palmar's proposed team - but I could be convinced to Yay a team that includes him based on his posts. He seems genuinely concerned about the fact that a team hasn't been proposed. It's a concern I share, and as such I'm gonna go ahead and
##Vote: Navillus: Nay
Because if he's any kind of scum he'll have to include himself and his apparent disinterest in actually selecting a team makes me itchy about voting a team that includes him. So let it be written.
On February 20 2012 19:33 Dirkzor wrote: But I do agree with kita. This overly buddying thing... just rubs me the wrong way. That was also why I called out prphlz out on his first post. It was a post just meant to be enhancing the effect that prphlz was town without him actually doing any pro town actions.
On February 21 2012 05:57 Dirkzor wrote: I wouldn't want Kita on a team.
So you agree with what I'm saying, yet as soon as I'm brought up for team discussion, you oppose me? Worried I might take your spot?
If I would be selecting a team right now, I'd probably go with the most vocal players. The ones that are willing to call others out. Likely some combination of myself, blazing, dirk, VE.
I'd be opposed to a team with sentinel (because of this post) and probably nav (too little info to go on)
On February 20 2012 11:04 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Aggressive tone means we're sure of ourselves instead of just going along with someone else.
Also, I have an argument and I'm making it clear now.
This post doesn't sound natural to me. It's as if he is trying to prove to us how can be aggressive by "having an argument and making it clear". He hasn't been even been aggressive towards any players, offering only wishy-washy statements on chaos and blazing. If I had to pick out one player as scum so far, it would be him.
On February 20 2012 11:04 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Aggressive tone means we're sure of ourselves instead of just going along with someone else.
Also, I have an argument and I'm making it clear now.
This post doesn't sound natural to me. It's as if he is trying to prove to us how can be aggressive by "having an argument and making it clear". He hasn't been even been aggressive towards any players, offering only wishy-washy statements on chaos and blazing. If I had to pick out one player as scum so far, it would be him.
No, by aggressive, I meant making arguments like the one you just made. It forces people to be active, and I actually had to stop what I was doing to reply to your accusation.
The two parts of that post were not meant to be together. My problems with chaos's plan have nothing to do with aggressiveness. I just thought that his plan was retarded and wanted to bring this up.
I'd really rather Navillus post a group rather than just letting this time out-- I want to see what he thinks is a good group for the D1 mission. Part of the way you gather info this game is by seeing who suggests who for their teams, and who votes yay and nay on it. Although the days are pretty long in this game, I'd rather not that Navillus waste more of our time. Post the team you want, and we'll vote on it. As it stands, Navillus has done nothing to indicate that he's town, and I am liking my "Nay" vote more and more.
I really don't like that Navillus hasn't done anything useful and didn't commit to a team. Like, way to not suggest a team dude, are you trying to dodge scrutiny or what
I'm not a fan of the "assume Palmar is town because he isn't playing like dick" given that he fooled me all Resistance I-- Palmar is perfectly capable of playing a fine scum, at least in this setup. I'm going to wait and see what kind of team he suggests before committing to a vote.
On February 21 2012 09:14 Blazinghand wrote: I really don't like that Navillus hasn't done anything useful and didn't commit to a team. Like, way to not suggest a team dude, are you trying to dodge scrutiny or what
I'm not a fan of the "assume Palmar is town because he isn't playing like dick" given that he fooled me all Resistance I-- Palmar is perfectly capable of playing a fine scum, at least in this setup. I'm going to wait and see what kind of team he suggests before committing to a vote.
"Palmar not playing like a dick" doesn't really factor into it, at least not for me. But, like you, I'm reserving judgement until he officially suggests his team. It's easy to say "I'm thinking A, B and C for a team" and actually put forth X, Y and Z, ya know?
On February 21 2012 09:14 Blazinghand wrote: I really don't like that Navillus hasn't done anything useful and didn't commit to a team. Like, way to not suggest a team dude, are you trying to dodge scrutiny or what
I'm not a fan of the "assume Palmar is town because he isn't playing like dick" given that he fooled me all Resistance I-- Palmar is perfectly capable of playing a fine scum, at least in this setup. I'm going to wait and see what kind of team he suggests before committing to a vote.
"Palmar not playing like a dick" doesn't really factor into it, at least not for me. But, like you, I'm reserving judgement until he officially suggests his team. It's easy to say "I'm thinking A, B and C for a team" and actually put forth X, Y and Z, ya know?
Exactly. And that's why I don't like Navillus, who just dodged super hard. I will nay-vote any team with him on it.
Regarding Palmar: I meant to say "playing poorly" rather than "playing in a mean-spirited fashion"
On February 21 2012 09:14 Blazinghand wrote: I really don't like that Navillus hasn't done anything useful and didn't commit to a team. Like, way to not suggest a team dude, are you trying to dodge scrutiny or what
I'm not a fan of the "assume Palmar is town because he isn't playing like dick" given that he fooled me all Resistance I-- Palmar is perfectly capable of playing a fine scum, at least in this setup. I'm going to wait and see what kind of team he suggests before committing to a vote.
Suggesting a scum team which we can actively downvote is better than not suggesting a team at all.
On February 21 2012 09:14 Blazinghand wrote: I really don't like that Navillus hasn't done anything useful and didn't commit to a team. Like, way to not suggest a team dude, are you trying to dodge scrutiny or what
I'm not a fan of the "assume Palmar is town because he isn't playing like dick" given that he fooled me all Resistance I-- Palmar is perfectly capable of playing a fine scum, at least in this setup. I'm going to wait and see what kind of team he suggests before committing to a vote.
"Palmar not playing like a dick" doesn't really factor into it, at least not for me. But, like you, I'm reserving judgement until he officially suggests his team. It's easy to say "I'm thinking A, B and C for a team" and actually put forth X, Y and Z, ya know?
Exactly. And that's why I don't like Navillus, who just dodged super hard. I will nay-vote any team with him on it.
Regarding Palmar: I meant to say "playing poorly" rather than "playing in a mean-spirited fashion"
But yeah as I said I'm gonna wait and see what his team is
On February 21 2012 09:14 Blazinghand wrote: I really don't like that Navillus hasn't done anything useful and didn't commit to a team. Like, way to not suggest a team dude, are you trying to dodge scrutiny or what
I'm not a fan of the "assume Palmar is town because he isn't playing like dick" given that he fooled me all Resistance I-- Palmar is perfectly capable of playing a fine scum, at least in this setup. I'm going to wait and see what kind of team he suggests before committing to a vote.
Suggesting a scum team which we can actively downvote is better than not suggesting a team at all.
Exactly and this is why I don't like Navillus-- no comittment, no suggested team, a total dodge.
On February 21 2012 09:14 Blazinghand wrote: I really don't like that Navillus hasn't done anything useful and didn't commit to a team. Like, way to not suggest a team dude, are you trying to dodge scrutiny or what
I'm not a fan of the "assume Palmar is town because he isn't playing like dick" given that he fooled me all Resistance I-- Palmar is perfectly capable of playing a fine scum, at least in this setup. I'm going to wait and see what kind of team he suggests before committing to a vote.
"Palmar not playing like a dick" doesn't really factor into it, at least not for me. But, like you, I'm reserving judgement until he officially suggests his team. It's easy to say "I'm thinking A, B and C for a team" and actually put forth X, Y and Z, ya know?
Exactly. And that's why I don't like Navillus, who just dodged super hard. I will nay-vote any team with him on it.
Regarding Palmar: I meant to say "playing poorly" rather than "playing in a mean-spirited fashion"
I tend to agree with you there Blaze - I mean, unless he just honestly didn't know the game had started or something, which obviously isn't even the case, it just seems like he's trying to avoid scrutiny. I also will nay-vote a Navillus team.
Ahh shoot this is from my phone because I haven't had access to a computer for a while and I thought the deadline was later than it was, honestly though my plan was me, Palmer, and dirkzor with an explanation that it was more with the intent of discussion than a really strong advocacy because I don't have strong enough reads for that. This will all seem dodgy but I wouldn't be telling you my dodgy sounding strat after missing it if I were scum. That would have been my strat because I am town and know that I'm not good enough to get a really strong town team by myself.
On February 21 2012 09:31 Navillus wrote: Ahh shoot this is from my phone because I haven't had access to a computer for a while and I thought the deadline was later than it was, honestly though my plan was me, Palmer, and dirkzor with an explanation that it was more with the intent of discussion than a really strong advocacy because I don't have strong enough reads for that. This will all seem dodgy but I wouldn't be telling you my dodgy sounding strat after missing it if I were scum. That would have been my strat because I am town and know that I'm not good enough to get a really strong town team by myself.
While I appreciate the effort, unless you're actively engaged in the discussions other players put forth, I'm still nay-voting you. It's one thing to say "Yeah, I wasn't dodging" and then WIFOM as to why...it's entire another thing to actually mean it and discuss with the rest of us who should be going on the mission.
Just FYI. When you're ready to play, we'll talk about including you on missions.
On February 21 2012 09:31 Navillus wrote: Ahh shoot this is from my phone because I haven't had access to a computer for a while and I thought the deadline was later than it was, honestly though my plan was me, Palmer, and dirkzor with an explanation that it was more with the intent of discussion than a really strong advocacy because I don't have strong enough reads for that. This will all seem dodgy but I wouldn't be telling you my dodgy sounding strat after missing it if I were scum. That would have been my strat because I am town and know that I'm not good enough to get a really strong town team by myself.
Worthless post, worthless team suggestion since it's not real-- saying it now is meaningless since we can't vote it in. you get no credit whatsoever for this post.
It seems very unlikely to me that a scum-navillus would have let the time run out, because it just seems to be kinda bad. I mean, I'm obviously taking a leap of faith including him on the team, but it just seems so much more likely this is apathetic town play than scum play.
Dirkzor seemed pretty towny from his early responses in the thread.
I am obviously confirmed town.
I considered putting prplhz and kitaman on the team, they seem towny enough. I need to read VE's posts better. It seems very weird he'd have a town read on me when I have posted very little in the game. I mean, he has given a reasonable explanation for his read, but it's just... too fast for my liking.
chaoser/blazinghand seem a bit off to me, and I don't think I would include sentinel either from the way he's currently posting.
Sorry, can't deal with a Navillus team. He stopped by the thread a couple of times to ask questions and generally fail. The fact that he showed up after the deadline to offer a "team" and then immediately dipped up out is even more disconcerting, IMO. I really think you could have done better than Navillus. Much better.
I like Dirk. I'm not actually super pleased with you on the team either, especially if you think Navillus is somehow one of the three townest players in this game.
There are much better people you could have picked as man #3 for the team, like Kita or myself.
Lol palmar. I was actaully thinking the same about navillus. Also because he would be easy to "kill" for mafia to just attack him relentlessly due to the fact that he did not put up a team.
I like the Dirkzor/Navillus part. I'm not sure about you yet though.
Also, your logic is flawed, either you think I'm town and navillus is scum, or you think navillus is town and I'm scum, you can't really dislike us both because it makes no sense from scum perspective to pick two people on a team on day 1.
You have very weak reasons for believing navillus is scum.
On February 21 2012 18:56 Dirkzor wrote: Lol palmar. I was actaully thinking the same about navillus. Also because he would be easy to "kill" for mafia to just attack him relentlessly due to the fact that he did not put up a team.
I like the Dirkzor/Navillus part. I'm not sure about you yet though.
Well I'm pretty confident in this. Just don't include me on any future teams if this fails.
I think in your position I'd want to bring the two most town players with me, and Navillus is not one of the two most town players. you setting up a fall guy for when your team fails? Or are you just dumb
On February 21 2012 18:56 Dirkzor wrote: Lol palmar. I was actaully thinking the same about navillus. Also because he would be easy to "kill" for mafia to just attack him relentlessly due to the fact that he did not put up a team.
I like the Dirkzor/Navillus part. I'm not sure about you yet though.
Well I'm pretty confident in this. Just don't include me on any future teams if this fails.
That would be much easier if you had two very town players on your team rather than one very town player and one Navillus.
Like I'm just trying to imagine Palmar's reasoning here
"Okay so I want to include myself on my team. I should include Dirkzor, since he looks town. Who should be my third teammate? Blazinghand? VE? Kita? No, you know what, Navillus sounds far more reasonable than those three, let's bring him he'll definitely not be a spy, yeah this is a good idea, and I, Palmar, a good player, will do this"
On February 21 2012 18:59 Blazinghand wrote: I think in your position I'd want to bring the two most town players with me, and Navillus is not one of the two most town players. you setting up a fall guy for when your team fails? Or are you just dumb
Nah, I said, I'll take the blame if the team fails.
It'd be strictly dumb play to include me again if this team fails.
On February 21 2012 19:03 Blazinghand wrote: Like I'm just trying to imagine Palmar's reasoning here
"Okay so I want to include myself on my team. I should include Dirkzor, since he looks town. Who should be my third teammate? Blazinghand? VE? Kita? No, you know what, Navillus sounds far more reasonable than those three, let's bring him he'll definitely not be a spy, yeah this is a good idea, and I, Palmar, a good player, will do this"
oh no wait that's unbelivably bad
Dude, no need to overreact, you haven't lost the game. yet.
On February 21 2012 18:59 Blazinghand wrote: I think in your position I'd want to bring the two most town players with me, and Navillus is not one of the two most town players. you setting up a fall guy for when your team fails? Or are you just dumb
Nah, I said, I'll take the blame if the team fails.
It'd be strictly dumb play to include me again if this team fails.
I've got a better plan, let's nayvote this guy's team down into the nether realms and pick a team with three town players. I don't like you Palmar. It doesn't matter if you never get included in another team--- there are three scum and only three missions need to be sabotaged. For day 2 we'll need to pick 2 more players out of the remaining 6 (of which 2 are scum) and pick 0 scum to get a victory. The "let's let palmar sabotage and just not use him any more" plan is unsustainable, and the kind of gambit scum would suggest.
I don't understand the rage for Navillus. Yes he failed hard but that don't make him scum. Just disinterested (or busy). Also if he is as disinterested as his action suggest he might not even sabotage even if he is scum
Town Palmar wouldn't suggest this team. He certainly wouldn't defend it by suggesting a strategy for town that lets scum win easily. The issue is that Navillus is not the best 3rd man and Palmar knows it.
His solution of "taking the blame if the team fails" is preposterous ON ITS FACE. If the team fails, a Town Palmar would NOT take the blame. He'd try to figure out which of the others was scum and make sure they didn't get onto the D2 team. This should be fairly obvious. Palmar is trying to hussle us
I think Dirkzor and Navillus are town. I have already presented ample reasoning why, and I think they are by far the safest townies to take along on a mission.
It's not bad play to take navillus, it's logical. You see, the advantage of this game is that you have to find townies, not scum. And it's in general much easier to find townies than it is to find scum. Like it's generally hard in a normal mafia game to eliminate a few townies from the lynch candidates, and then lynch into the rest of the people, which increases your chance of hitting scum.
And while telling apart scum and lazy/bad/scummy townies is hard, it's much easier to pick out the few townies that normally would not get discussed for a lynch.
So yeah, I think it's very, very unlikely navillus could allow himself to be so uncertain, so indecisive and so indifferent about the game if he was scum, it screams to me apathetic townie with a lack of confidence. I've already said Dirkzor is a good choice.
So what does this make me? Sadly you can't really tell much about my alignment even if my picks are good, because it makes sense for scum to pick two townies to join on the mission.
so it's either or. It makes no sense to say navillus is bad choice and thus I'm scum. Either navillus is bad choice (scum) and I'm a bad townie, or navillus is good choice and I'm scum, or the obvious and probably correct alternative Navillus is a good choice and I'm town.
Seeing as I think I've already convinced most people on TL I'm kind of good at this, you should as scum be pushing the idea that I'm scum, and thus the team can't be accepted. You can't say "Navillus looks bad, thus palmar is scum" because that makes no sense for a scum team to do. Due to the risk of town just not picking anyone from the first team if the first team fails.
So, which is it BH? Am I scum? or is navillus scum? You can't have it both ways.
This is why I'm offering my responsibility for the team. I think my choices are good, I know I'm not bad at this game, so I'm picking two people and rolling with it. The reasonable conclusion if the mission fails is that I am scum.
On February 21 2012 19:03 Blazinghand wrote: Like I'm just trying to imagine Palmar's reasoning here
"Okay so I want to include myself on my team. I should include Dirkzor, since he looks town. Who should be my third teammate? Blazinghand? VE? Kita? No, you know what, Navillus sounds far more reasonable than those three, let's bring him he'll definitely not be a spy, yeah this is a good idea, and I, Palmar, a good player, will do this"
oh no wait that's unbelivably bad
Why do you work so hard to misrepresent my position.
Do you not agree that it's unlikely scum-navillus would pull this off?
I actually really like the idea of Navillus being included on the team, I think he's an excellent pick. Palmar is correct that once you dig through Nav's motives, it makes far more sense that he is town than scum. Let's check it out.
#1
On February 20 2012 04:20 Navillus wrote: Oh wow I've been busy for a bit and haven't been on TL in a couple days, it's really lucky that I went on today. Anyway
Can I put forward team members one by one, or do I have to put all 3 at once and do I only get to put forth 1 team idea?
So we've got Nav's first post, asking a generic question about the setup. I included this because of the excellent nature of the question. Which situation would benefit town more, voting on one player at a time, or voting on the whole team? One player at a time, obviously, as this eliminates the variable of the spy(s) present on a selected team remaining anonymous. While it is simply a question on setup, and as such can be made with equal ease by scum or town, I have to give this one to Navillus and say that it gained him some slight town cred from me.
On February 21 2012 06:26 VisceraEyes wrote: Dirk is the most questionable of any of Palmar's proposed team - but I could be convinced to Yay a team that includes him based on his posts. He seems genuinely concerned about the fact that a team hasn't been proposed. It's a concern I share, and as such I'm gonna go ahead and
##Vote: Navillus: Nay
Because if he's any kind of scum he'll have to include himself and his apparent disinterest in actually selecting a team makes me itchy about voting a team that includes him. So let it be written.
This doesn't so much make me feel better about Nav as it does make me feel terrible about the person attacking him. Is VE, as he described Dirk, "genuinely concerned about the face that a team hasn't been proposed?". No. It's because he would have to include himself if he is scum, but he is apparently not interested in selecting a team, meaning that if he includes himself VE will Nay vote him.
Wait, what?
Top notch example of shitty scum analysis if I've ever seen one. I'll be nay-voting a team with VE on it from this point forth, and be much more comfortable with yay-ing a team that a scum doesn't want.
On February 21 2012 09:31 Navillus wrote: Ahh shoot this is from my phone because I haven't had access to a computer for a while and I thought the deadline was later than it was, honestly though my plan was me, Palmer, and dirkzor with an explanation that it was more with the intent of discussion than a really strong advocacy because I don't have strong enough reads for that. This will all seem dodgy but I wouldn't be telling you my dodgy sounding strat after missing it if I were scum. That would have been my strat because I am town and know that I'm not good enough to get a really strong town team by myself.
We see here something genuine. I cannot think of any reason why scum Navillus would post this after failing to submit a team and making himself such an obvious target. He takes responsibility, and steps into the spotlight - two things that scum never do.
On February 21 2012 18:44 Palmar wrote: It seems very unlikely to me that a scum-navillus would have let the time run out, because it just seems to be kinda bad. I mean, I'm obviously taking a leap of faith including him on the team, but it just seems so much more likely this is apathetic town play than scum play.
HOWEVER, I do have one problem with the team, that will cause me to nay-vote it if not changed.
Dirkzor.
On February 19 2012 18:56 Dirkzor wrote: Yay... We're going to blow up that anniversary!
Since we don't have a team up yet it's hard to discuss whether its a good or a bad team (also because we have had no discussion). So why the nay vote? O_o Considering that everyone will be town in their own eyes the best team you can possible get right now is one where you yourself are on since you know your own alignment.
I would likely support any team with me on it as it guarentees 1/3 town right there.
Any team that fails the mission the person who suggested the team should automaticly be under suspicion, even if the team is without that person (or perhaps especially so).
He immediately begins by bagging on himself as a guaranteed town player, and explaining how obvious it is that he should be included on a team.
Town motivations for such a post: - Create the most pro-town team possible
Scum motivations: - Gain town credit - Get yourself on a team right off the bat
The last part of the post is ready to incite tension once a team fails, as he immediately casts suspicion on any team leader who's team fails. I agreed with him on this previously, but with more careful consideration, I see what he is trying to do.
Once Dirkzor has used his town credit and earned himself a place on a team on D1, he can sabotage it and then point to Navillus to take the blame, using this, his FIRST post, as reference. He's setting up a good play for the rest of the game with just his first post.
[QUOTE]On February 20 2012 02:50 Dirkzor wrote: [QUOTE]On February 20 2012 00:49 prplhz wrote: Hi guys
I'm just a regular townie, nothing to worry about here. As such, I should be on night1 team. [QUOTE]
What purpose do you have for posting that?! And with colors?! Claiming to be town is what anyone would do at this point in the game. Adding on colors and "Nothing to worry about here" just rubs me the wrong way... Even if you call me town...
[/QUOTE]
Calling prplhz out for using colors. That's the only thing he has on him. Dirk claimed town the same way prplhz did, but once you start using colors apparently shit hits the fan. Incredibly bad accusation. What rubs me the wrong way is the last sentence in this post: "Even if you call me town..." So calling Dirkzor town gains you town cred in his eyes? Of course it does, because scum love when people think they're town. He'll buddy right up to you if you think he's town, because that means when he comes under fire he'll have some good ol' town players to do the defending for him.
[QUOTE]On February 20 2012 19:33 Dirkzor wrote: Nav we need a team soon. Please.
I'm glad for all the love I get this thread.. Must mean I'm doing something right =) But I do agree with kita. This overly buddying thing... just rubs me the wrong way. That was also why I called out prphlz out on his first post. It was a post just meant to be enhancing the effect that prphlz was town without him actually doing any pro town actions.
"The first time someone calls you a horse you punch him on the nose, the second time someone calls you a horse you call him a jerk but the third time someone calls you a horse, well then perhaps it's time to go shopping for a saddle."
The third time someone calls themself town I'll buy them a saddle...[/QUOTE]
Check it out again. Buddying right on up to the people calling him town, and then moments later he jumps on the kita anti-buddying bandwagon. And once again, he calls out prplhz for the exact same things that he has done himself. Get ready to buy yourself a saddle Dirk, you're starting to sound like a broken record.
[QUOTE]On February 21 2012 05:57 Dirkzor wrote: I wouldn't want Kita on a team.[/QUOTE]
Brilliant! Bravo! What a persuading argument!
Scum love to create tension, suspicion, and dissonance without being pointed to as the cause. Much as with the town buddying problem mentioned earlier, such posts can change a casual town reader's mind without them realizing what's going on. Scum don't like to be brought into the spotlight, and so here Dirk hasn't bothered falsifying a case. He wants someone else to do the dirty work for him.
So in summary, Dirkzor is a dirty spy. Nay vote Team Palmar.
Damn chaos... Just when I fell in love with your post about Navillus you have to go and throw it away with your post on me.
I agree with you on Navillus.
There is nothing wrong with calling yourself town. I did it. Palmar did it and so did others. But there are ways to do it where you overdo it. Thats what prplhz did. With colors and the "nothing to see here" remark. Thats what stood out and I stand by that. Prphlz asked earlier why I only called him out and not Palmar, this is why.
If a team fails everyone on the team are under suspicion. This should be obvious. If a team fails with me on it I would understand not sending me on the next mission. What I wanted to press was that if a team gets approved without the teamleader himself on it, does not exclude the teamleader for suspicion.
I'm just a regular townie, nothing to worry about here. As such, I should be on night1 team.
What purpose do you have for posting that?! And with colors?! Claiming to be town is what anyone would do at this point in the game. Adding on colors and "Nothing to worry about here" just rubs me the wrong way... Even if you call me town...
Calling prplhz out for using colors. That's the only thing he has on him. Dirk claimed town the same way prplhz did, but once you start using colors apparently shit hits the fan. Incredibly bad accusation. What rubs me the wrong way is the last sentence in this post: "Even if you call me town..." So calling Dirkzor town gains you town cred in his eyes? Of course it does, because scum love when people think they're town. He'll buddy right up to you if you think he's town, because that means when he comes under fire he'll have some good ol' town players to do the defending for him.
What?! Overthinking it are we? He called me town and I still said he made a bad post. Thats about it. No buddying here?
On February 20 2012 19:33 Dirkzor wrote: Nav we need a team soon. Please.
I'm glad for all the love I get this thread.. Must mean I'm doing something right =) But I do agree with kita. This overly buddying thing... just rubs me the wrong way. That was also why I called out prphlz out on his first post. It was a post just meant to be enhancing the effect that prphlz was town without him actually doing any pro town actions.
"The first time someone calls you a horse you punch him on the nose, the second time someone calls you a horse you call him a jerk but the third time someone calls you a horse, well then perhaps it's time to go shopping for a saddle."
The third time someone calls themself town I'll buy them a saddle...
Check it out again. Buddying right on up to the people calling him town, and then moments later he jumps on the kita anti-buddying bandwagon. And once again, he calls out prplhz for the exact same things that he has done himself. Get ready to buy yourself a saddle Dirk, you're starting to sound like a broken record.
On February 21 2012 05:57 Dirkzor wrote: I wouldn't want Kita on a team.
Brilliant! Bravo! What a persuading argument!
Scum love to create tension, suspicion, and dissonance without being pointed to as the cause. Much as with the town buddying problem mentioned earlier, such posts can change a casual town reader's mind without them realizing what's going on. Scum don't like to be brought into the spotlight, and so here Dirk hasn't bothered falsifying a case. He wants someone else to do the dirty work for him.
So in summary, Dirkzor is a dirty spy. Nay vote Team Palmar.
First when have I buddying up with anyone? Please point this out.
I don't want Kita on a mission. I have my reason and I'm surprised that no one else have seen what I have. If I'm scum and don't want to be in the spotlight what have I been doing all game? Why would I make a statement without reason?
This whole case reeks of overthinking because people think you are scummy and you want to contribute so you had to find something to make a case on. I'm on the fence about you and your post about Navillus was really good.
On February 21 2012 23:22 Dirkzor wrote: I don't want Kita on a mission. I have my reason and I'm surprised that no one else have seen what I have. If I'm scum and don't want to be in the spotlight what have I been doing all game? Why would I make a statement without reason?
So what exactly is this reason that you don't mention, but are surprised that everyone hasn't picked up on? No reason to keep it a secret.
Palmar, I dislike how many times you are calling yourself confirmed town. What does your alignment in past games have anything to do with your current alignment?
I mentioned that I would nay a team with Nav, but I actually think I might change my mind. I don't see a reason why a scum player would dodge a team selection, rather than just nominate himself and two others. I like that dirk is aggressive and vocal, but I'll wait to see what his reasoning is to want to deny my spot. I know I'm town, so the best way I can ensure we pass the first mission is if I'm part of the team. I'll probably be voting nay unless something changes my mind in the next 12 hours.
Actually a post I wrote yesterday is better defence (for thea teamleader suspicion thing) then what I just wrote:
On February 19 2012 20:01 Dirkzor wrote: I never said I would suggest a team without myself on it. As you said it would be stupid as I can only confirm my own allignment. (As for now. I can see situation later in the game where suggesting a team without myself might be beneficial to town) But that does not invalidate my point. If you suggest a team, and that mission fail, everyone on the team should be under suspicion - agree? But you (the teamleader) even more since you might be privy to more information then the rest of us if you are scum.
If it so happened that you suggested a team without youself on it and it still failed you would be even more suspicious.
Your point about Nay voting every team until you can make your own team are bad. I agree it would be smart to be teamleader so you are sure that no scum are the leader but we will never get a mission going if everyone thinks like that.
On February 21 2012 02:36 kitaman27 wrote: What's the holdup Nav? Nobody around in scum irc to give suggestions?
It seems likely that a scum player would be less likely to nominate a player from there own team or approve a team with multiple scum players. If the day one or two fails, and there are two scum players in the group, that leaves only one trusted scum player for the final three days. We might be able to use this fact later on when looking at the team voting or locate a scum which votes nay to a team he was included on.
That post is why I don't want you on a team. This could just as easily have been posting the a scum QT (if you had one). Telling other scum what not do to about team selection and voting.
Sentinel and Prplhz are also partial guilty of this imo.
On February 21 2012 02:36 kitaman27 wrote: What's the holdup Nav? Nobody around in scum irc to give suggestions?
It seems likely that a scum player would be less likely to nominate a player from there own team or approve a team with multiple scum players. If the day one or two fails, and there are two scum players in the group, that leaves only one trusted scum player for the final three days. We might be able to use this fact later on when looking at the team voting or locate a scum which votes nay to a team he was included on.
That post is why I don't want you on a team. This could just as easily have been posting the a scum QT (if you had one). Telling other scum what not do to about team selection and voting.
Sentinel and Prplhz are also partial guilty of this imo.
lol why in the world would I tell my "scum buddies" what to do in the thread when I could just pm them or tell them in irc? You're not making any sense right now o.O
On February 21 2012 23:50 Dirkzor wrote: What?! No out of threa communication AT ALL. Even as scum.
I don't know if you are playing dumb are just didn't knew?
oh totally missed that -_-
If that is the case, then trying to look of instances where the scum team is communicating with each other is actually a decent idea. I don't think my post really adds to the scum strategy as it was just common sense. Obviously someone isn't going to put all their eggs in one basket, sabotage the first mission, and have their entire team left out the remaining four. I'm talking more about the voting analysis as a result of this fact, by looking at team suggestions to try to eliminate possible relationships. Also, the idea that a player who nays a team that they are included on should be looked into still stands.
On February 22 2012 00:15 Dirkzor wrote: Kita: I think I believe that you just didn't know. Which is a big town tell. Did you read the first resistance game?
Nope. Been hit hard with hw the last couple days. I still might if I get a chance tomorrow.
What are your thoughts about Palmar dirk? Are you going to yay the team?
At the same time I would not have been surprised af a town palmar had responded with: "Your're a moron and I don't need your scum vote to get my town team going"...
On February 21 2012 19:47 Palmar wrote: So what does this make me? Sadly you can't really tell much about my alignment even if my picks are good, because it makes sense for scum to pick two townies to join on the mission.
so it's either or. It makes no sense to say navillus is bad choice and thus I'm scum. Either navillus is bad choice (scum) and I'm a bad townie, or navillus is good choice and I'm scum, or the obvious and probably correct alternative Navillus is a good choice and I'm town.
Seeing as I think I've already convinced most people on TL I'm kind of good at this, you should as scum be pushing the idea that I'm scum, and thus the team can't be accepted. You can't say "Navillus looks bad, thus palmar is scum" because that makes no sense for a scum team to do. Due to the risk of town just not picking anyone from the first team if the first team fails.
So, which is it BH? Am I scum? or is navillus scum? You can't have it both ways.
Ah yes this is an accurate representation of my arguments, you have totally trounced me with your unbeatable wall
On February 21 2012 19:47 Palmar wrote: So what does this make me? Sadly you can't really tell much about my alignment even if my picks are good, because it makes sense for scum to pick two townies to join on the mission.
so it's either or. It makes no sense to say navillus is bad choice and thus I'm scum. Either navillus is bad choice (scum) and I'm a bad townie, or navillus is good choice and I'm scum, or the obvious and probably correct alternative Navillus is a good choice and I'm town.
Seeing as I think I've already convinced most people on TL I'm kind of good at this, you should as scum be pushing the idea that I'm scum, and thus the team can't be accepted. You can't say "Navillus looks bad, thus palmar is scum" because that makes no sense for a scum team to do. Due to the risk of town just not picking anyone from the first team if the first team fails.
So, which is it BH? Am I scum? or is navillus scum? You can't have it both ways.
Ah yes this is an accurate representation of my arguments, you have totally trounced me with your unbeatable wall
Oh, no wait, you're wrong. You picked Navillus because you wanted a fall guy besides yourself. When I called you out, you decided to put some arguments forward supporting him. Navillus is NOT the 2nd most town player besides Dirkzor, and your post hoc rationalization doesn't make sense.
On February 21 2012 19:48 Palmar wrote: This is why I'm offering my responsibility for the team. I think my choices are good, I know I'm not bad at this game, so I'm picking two people and rolling with it. The reasonable conclusion if the mission fails is that I am scum.
So, can we please just roll with this to test it?
GOD THIS IS SO BAD. This is how we know this isn't Town Palmar. Town Palmar would not let the D2 mission fail just because the D1 mission failed. He would say "hey guys I think either Dirk or Navillus is scum and here's why" rather than being like "yeah man just sub me out it's np" Does nobody else get this?
Palmar
Seeing as I think I've already convinced most people on TL I'm kind of good at this, you should as scum be pushing the idea that I'm scum, and thus the team can't be accepted. You can't say "Navillus looks bad, thus palmar is scum" because that makes no sense for a scum team to do. Due to the risk of town just not picking anyone from the first team if the first team fails.
Emphasis mine. If there's a sabotage D1, that means of the remaining players, it's likely 4 are town and 2 are scum. that means that if you pick only people who didn't go D1 it's VERY VERY hard to pick the correct 4-man team; you basically have to identify the two scum. It's really hard, and abandoning the entire D1 team is an easy way to give up the D2 mission too.
It seems pretty obvious to me that Palmar is setting up for a sabotage D1, and trying to enable an easy sabotage D2.
And now that I've caught him he's getting all butthurt.
On February 22 2012 02:37 Palmar wrote: Well I'm still not sure what exactly your problem is.
If you don't want the team to go, you must be certain that one of us is scum. So who is it?
Clearly you haven't been reading my posts in a reasonable fashion, and have not been trying to. I'm not here to convince you, I'm here to convince the other 5 players who matter.
And before we get into the "well maybe Palmar doesn't understand the setup" arguments bear in mind that this is all stuff that was talked about in Resistance I, some of which was brought up by him. All these terrible town strats he's arguing-- he KNOWS they're terrible.
Also, I never suggested that we swap out the entire team after day 1 if day 1 fails. I suggested that we swap out ME.
And you seem to be pretty content with that right?
I mentioned that scum players would not want 2 players on the first team, having played scum in this setup, I know this is true. I considered it and decided that it'd indeed be best if only one went. I'm sure you and your team have given the risk of having more than one player on a team early some thought.
I'm not pushing any strats, no idea what you're talking about. I'm pushing a team, where I pick two people I think are town, and then try to get people to yay-vote it.
obtw, @townies (that's not you BH), do you think my team suggestion would see such resistance if there was scum on it? Hell, if a townie suggests a team with 1 scum on it, 3 scummers should be happy to join the wagon.
On February 22 2012 02:42 Blazinghand wrote: Sorry if I was ambiguous before, but that was before you made all these retarded arguments and town plans lol
On February 22 2012 02:44 Palmar wrote: I'm not pushing any strats, no idea what you're talking about. I'm pushing a team, where I pick two people I think are town, and then try to get people to yay-vote it.
If you're not pushing them why are you suggesting all these crappy strats?
On February 22 2012 02:44 Palmar wrote: lol BH, cute when mad.
Also, I never suggested that we swap out the entire team after day 1 if day 1 fails. I suggested that we swap out ME.
And you seem to be pretty content with that right?
No that's literally retarded
Why? You seem to think I'm scum. So, it's only reasonable to assume Dirkzor and Navillus are town. If I'm scum there is very little incentive to take along another scum on day 1? right?
So why not just swap out me if the team fails? Why is that "literally retarded"?
On February 22 2012 02:44 Palmar wrote: lol BH, cute when mad.
Also, I never suggested that we swap out the entire team after day 1 if day 1 fails. I suggested that we swap out ME.
And you seem to be pretty content with that right?
No that's literally retarded
Why? You seem to think I'm scum. So, it's only reasonable to assume Dirkzor and Navillus are town. If I'm scum there is very little incentive to take along another scum on day 1? right?
So why not just swap out me if the team fails? Why is that "literally retarded"?
YOU suggesting that you swap yourself out is retarded. you know your alignment.
On February 22 2012 02:44 Palmar wrote: I'm not pushing any strats, no idea what you're talking about. I'm pushing a team, where I pick two people I think are town, and then try to get people to yay-vote it.
If you're not pushing them why are you suggesting all these crappy strats?
show me the strats I'm suggesting. And make sure it's "all these"
By the way you're talking it seems like i'm some scheming madman with tons of plans. I can't even remember suggesting one single plan? I've pointed out logic, but I mean, I know that shit flies right above your head.
On February 22 2012 02:42 Blazinghand wrote: Sorry if I was ambiguous before, but that was before you made all these retarded arguments and town plans lol
point me to said plans please.
The "scum is worried about a total everyone swap" thing and the "hey let's just swap out palmar" thing that we're talking about. The former is dumb and the latter is dumb if you, Palmar, are town.
On February 22 2012 02:44 Palmar wrote: I'm not pushing any strats, no idea what you're talking about. I'm pushing a team, where I pick two people I think are town, and then try to get people to yay-vote it.
If you're not pushing them why are you suggesting all these crappy strats?
show me the strats I'm suggesting. And make sure it's "all these"
By the way you're talking it seems like i'm some scheming madman with tons of plans. I can't even remember suggesting one single plan? I've pointed out logic, but I mean, I know that shit flies right above your head.
On February 22 2012 02:44 Palmar wrote: lol BH, cute when mad.
Also, I never suggested that we swap out the entire team after day 1 if day 1 fails. I suggested that we swap out ME.
And you seem to be pretty content with that right?
No that's literally retarded
Why? You seem to think I'm scum. So, it's only reasonable to assume Dirkzor and Navillus are town. If I'm scum there is very little incentive to take along another scum on day 1? right?
So why not just swap out me if the team fails? Why is that "literally retarded"?
YOU suggesting that you swap yourself out is retarded. you know your alignment.
I'm just saying I'm that confident in my team. And again? From your point of view, why is that retarded? Let's entertain the idea for a second that the mission will fail with my team (it won't). It makes sense from your point of view, if you're town (you're not), to swap out the person you thought was scum on the team (me) and go again.
On February 22 2012 02:42 Blazinghand wrote: Sorry if I was ambiguous before, but that was before you made all these retarded arguments and town plans lol
point me to said plans please.
The "scum is worried about a total everyone swap" thing and the "hey let's just swap out palmar" thing that we're talking about. The former is dumb and the latter is dumb if you, Palmar, are town.
I never suggested we swap out everyone. It is however a possibility scum would certainly keep in mind. I know I did when I played scum last time.
And the latter is just the logical conclusion for you, if you're town, but it seems to me you're not.
As I said, anyone can feel free to hold me responsible if this team fails. I am that confident in me being right.
On February 22 2012 02:44 Palmar wrote: lol BH, cute when mad.
Also, I never suggested that we swap out the entire team after day 1 if day 1 fails. I suggested that we swap out ME.
And you seem to be pretty content with that right?
No that's literally retarded
Why? You seem to think I'm scum. So, it's only reasonable to assume Dirkzor and Navillus are town. If I'm scum there is very little incentive to take along another scum on day 1? right?
So why not just swap out me if the team fails? Why is that "literally retarded"?
YOU suggesting that you swap yourself out is retarded. you know your alignment.
I'm just saying I'm that confident in my team. And again? From your point of view, why is that retarded? Let's entertain the idea for a second that the mission will fail with my team (it won't). It makes sense from your point of view, if you're town (you're not), to swap out the person you thought was scum on the team (me) and go again.
I don't understand what's retarded.
Are you intentionally this dense? Let me break it down for you:
While it wouldn't be retarded for me to vote you out after your team fails, YOU personally know you're town (if you are, indeed, town). This means you know that either Dirk of Navillus is scum. Why on earth would YOU, the guy who suggested this course of action, be okay with Dirk Navillus +2 for the D2 team when you know it will fail? There's no reasonable way a town player would sit by and let that happen. This plan is dumb from your point of view and you know it.
On February 22 2012 02:42 Blazinghand wrote: Sorry if I was ambiguous before, but that was before you made all these retarded arguments and town plans lol
point me to said plans please.
The "scum is worried about a total everyone swap" thing and the "hey let's just swap out palmar" thing that we're talking about. The former is dumb and the latter is dumb if you, Palmar, are town.
I never suggested we swap out everyone. It is however a possibility scum would certainly keep in mind. I know I did when I played scum last time.
And the latter is just the logical conclusion for you, if you're town, but it seems to me you're not.
As I said, anyone can feel free to hold me responsible if this team fails. I am that confident in me being right.
See again with this "hold me responsible", if we do that three times with you and your two scumbuddies we've already lost. That earns you no credit in my book.
On February 22 2012 02:51 Palmar wrote: Also, stop misrepresenting my points as "plans". I don't make plans and I don't appreciate you trying to paint the picture I do.
You literally suggested that you'll "take responsibility" and step aside if your team loses. How the dicks are you not suggesting a plan >.>
Or are you trying to dodge blame for it now that I have exposed its shittiness for all to see
On February 22 2012 02:51 Palmar wrote: Also, stop misrepresenting my points as "plans". I don't make plans and I don't appreciate you trying to paint the picture I do.
You literally suggested that you'll "take responsibility" and step aside if your team loses. How the dicks are you not suggesting a plan >.>
Or are you trying to dodge blame for it now that I have exposed its shittiness for all to see
That's not the team you suggested before. Now I have to go back and decide if I think Navillus is worth sending - in spite of already saying that I don't think he is.
Tell me this sir. What makes you think "apathy" is an acceptable townie trait to risk the D1 mission on? You really didn't have ANY other town-reads? None?! NOT A SINGLE ONE OTHER THAN THE GUY WHO DIDN'T SUBMIT A TEAM?!
You should note I got into something of a discussion with Palmar in which I outlined some of my concerns with his team composition. It may be worth reading when you get the chance.
Okay Palmar. We do it your way. Unfortunately, this means that if your mission suffers failure, I have no idea who to look at - I have the weakest read on Navillus (hello 2 posts in the entire game) so I'd be more comfortable including you than Navillus in further missions - but you know, it's whatevs.
Anyweiz - I'm really curious about why Palmar is sending Navillus.
On February 21 2012 19:47 Palmar wrote: It's not bad play to take navillus, it's logical. You see, the advantage of this game is that you have to find townies, not scum. And it's in general much easier to find townies than it is to find scum. Like it's generally hard in a normal mafia game to eliminate a few townies from the lynch candidates, and then lynch into the rest of the people, which increases your chance of hitting scum.
And while telling apart scum and lazy/bad/scummy townies is hard, it's much easier to pick out the few townies that normally would not get discussed for a lynch.
This seems like mindless repetition to me. I think you could express this in a third of the text that you actually typed.
So yeah, I think it's very, very unlikely navillus could allow himself to be so uncertain, so indecisive and so indifferent about the game if he was scum, it screams to me apathetic townie with a lack of confidence. I've already said Dirkzor is a good choice.
Or, you know, not choosing a team means nothing to analyze. I'm not going to say outright that Navillus is a spy, but he could have at least suggested a team.
So what does this make me? Sadly you can't really tell much about my alignment even if my picks are good, because it makes sense for scum to pick two townies to join on the mission.
so it's either or. It makes no sense to say navillus is bad choice and thus I'm scum. Either navillus is bad choice (scum) and I'm a bad townie, or navillus is good choice and I'm scum, or the obvious and probably correct alternative Navillus is a good choice and I'm town.
...this is coming from you so I'm not going to assume you're a stupid scum who's trying to place the blame on Nav if this plan goes south.
Seeing as I think I've already convinced most people on TL I'm kind of good at this, you should as scum be pushing the idea that I'm scum, and thus the team can't be accepted. You can't say "Navillus looks bad, thus palmar is scum" because that makes no sense for a scum team to do. Due to the risk of town just not picking anyone from the first team if the first team fails.
So, which is it BH? Am I scum? or is navillus scum? You can't have it both ways.
He's not trustworthy enough to be on the team. And thus I will vote nay once I get home.
On February 22 2012 05:10 kitaman27 wrote: I sent my nay vote in as well. Doesn't make much sense to me to support a team where I'm not a part of on day one.
This is a terrible team, and I'm glad you voted Nay. That being said, if everyone followed your philosophy no team would ever get above 3 votes. Think about at least considering supporting a team without you if you think it is 3 town players, should someone suggest one.
On February 22 2012 04:56 Palmar wrote: look at them scum come out of the woods to tear my team apart.
:D
Do people think there'd be such resistance to a day 1 team with a scummy on it?
Yes Palmar. I'd expect any townies who don't like your choices to come in here and voice their concerns. Why do you feel like no one would be concerned with a D1 team with a scummy on it? Certainly the scums wouldn't mind - but if it's someone questionable, why wouldn't town be concerned?
On February 22 2012 05:10 kitaman27 wrote: I sent my nay vote in as well. Doesn't make much sense to me to support a team where I'm not a part of on day one.
You're severely limiting town's options with this mindset - if everyone adopted it, there'd be no way to get a 5 person majority.
On February 22 2012 05:10 kitaman27 wrote: I sent my nay vote in as well. Doesn't make much sense to me to support a team where I'm not a part of on day one.
This is a terrible team, and I'm glad you voted Nay. That being said, if everyone followed your philosophy no team would ever get above 3 votes. Think about at least considering supporting a team without you if you think it is 3 town players, should someone suggest one.
Well its gives us the best odds for having a successful mission one and building upon that mission. I don't mind drawing out the voting a while if it gives us the best chance of winning.
Is there a punishment if we can decide on a team within a certain amount of time?
On February 22 2012 05:09 Palmar wrote: lulz, failtown is fail
I'm afk. Nayvoting any team that isn't exactly the team I suggested.
This is also anti-town. There are 5 townies. Not just the three you think you've identified. This tells me that you're not interested in actually trying to find a reasonable team, you have a reason for choosing this specific team.
Give me a reason not to switch to a Nayvote Palmar, if you're not too much of a pompous ass.
On February 22 2012 05:15 Palmar wrote: no one on the team is questionable.
Either I'm terrible at mafia for suggesting a team with scum on it, or I'm scum.
Because I don't think I'm terrible at mafia, bye extension everyone who nayvotes the team is saying I must be scum, because I'm not bad.
Thus this game is stupid because everyone playing it is stupid.
If this game is stupid it means you are stupid because you are playing it. If you are stupid then you can suggest a team with a scum on it because you are stupid.
Your story really is that at the time you picked the team, you really thought Navillus was the best 3rd man after Dirk? That Navillus is unquestionable? Because I have plenty of questions for Navillus, and plenty of questions, now, for you.
On February 22 2012 05:10 kitaman27 wrote: I sent my nay vote in as well. Doesn't make much sense to me to support a team where I'm not a part of on day one.
You're severely limiting town's options with this mindset - if everyone adopted it, there'd be no way to get a 5 person majority.
I don't like this post at all.
If you're town, are you saying that you're more confidant that you can select three other townies than yourself and two other townies? It's basic math. I'm not sure why I should be concerned with limiting town's options if it increases town's chances of victory.
On February 22 2012 05:10 kitaman27 wrote: I sent my nay vote in as well. Doesn't make much sense to me to support a team where I'm not a part of on day one.
You're severely limiting town's options with this mindset - if everyone adopted it, there'd be no way to get a 5 person majority.
I don't like this post at all.
If you're town, are you saying that you're more confidant that you can select three other townies than yourself and two other townies? It's basic math. I'm not sure why I should be concerned with limiting town's options if it increases town's chances of victory.
Right but if everyone followed your logic no team would get more than 3 votes, because nobody would vote for teams that didn't include themselves. You understand the basic flaw here right? Or are you intentionally being dense
On February 22 2012 05:10 kitaman27 wrote: I sent my nay vote in as well. Doesn't make much sense to me to support a team where I'm not a part of on day one.
You're severely limiting town's options with this mindset - if everyone adopted it, there'd be no way to get a 5 person majority.
I don't like this post at all.
If you're town, are you saying that you're more confidant that you can select three other townies than yourself and two other townies? It's basic math. I'm not sure why I should be concerned with limiting town's options if it increases town's chances of victory.
Right but if everyone followed your logic no team would get more than 3 votes, because nobody would vote for teams that didn't include themselves. You understand the basic flaw here right? Or are you intentionally being dense
I guess that's where I have to convince everyone else that I'm the best choice then, isn't it
On February 22 2012 05:10 kitaman27 wrote: I sent my nay vote in as well. Doesn't make much sense to me to support a team where I'm not a part of on day one.
You're severely limiting town's options with this mindset - if everyone adopted it, there'd be no way to get a 5 person majority.
I don't like this post at all.
If you're town, are you saying that you're more confidant that you can select three other townies than yourself and two other townies? It's basic math. I'm not sure why I should be concerned with limiting town's options if it increases town's chances of victory.
No, that's not what I'm saying - I'm saying that by telling town that you'll nay-vote any team that you're not a part of, you're forcing town to consider you as a part of their team by virtue of them having a guaranteed nay-vote if they don't. I expect you and everyone else to include themselves on their own D1 team, not to would be ridiculous, but that's not what you said - you said you'd nay-vote any team you're not a part of. That's scummy as shit Kita.
Kita the only thing you got going for you know is that you are/were pretty ignorant about the setup suggesting you aren't scum. But as I have no way to know that it is not a play its hard to convince me that you are town.
maaaaybe prplhz? He seems genuinely afk, not sure what it means. But he could also be scum. Like sentinel and chaoser are also kinda scummy, but one of them is probably town, of those three that is. I'm not sure though
BH is just scum for being intentionally dumb, and so much of an asshole about it that he's pulling dumb people with him.
On February 22 2012 05:25 Dirkzor wrote: Kita the only thing you got going for you know is that you are/were pretty ignorant about the setup suggesting you aren't scum. But as I have no way to know that it is not a play its hard to convince me that you are town.
In what way does ignorance of the setup indicate town? Scum are not able to communicate with each other, so it's just as possible for scum to not understand the setup as it is for town.
VE: if he was scum he would already know that scum was not allowed to communicate out of this thread. (had he tried to contact them they would have told him. Or so i assume) The other things he don't know only enforces that he really did not know about the scum communcation had to be in-thread.
On February 22 2012 05:51 Dirkzor wrote: VE: if he was scum he would already know that scum was not allowed to communicate out of this thread. (had he tried to contact them they would have told him. Or so i assume) The other things he don't know only enforces that he really did not know about the scum communcation had to be in-thread.
My point is that none of that is indicative of alignment. At all.
On February 22 2012 05:10 kitaman27 wrote: I sent my nay vote in as well. Doesn't make much sense to me to support a team where I'm not a part of on day one.
You're severely limiting town's options with this mindset - if everyone adopted it, there'd be no way to get a 5 person majority.
I don't like this post at all.
If you're town, are you saying that you're more confidant that you can select three other townies than yourself and two other townies? It's basic math. I'm not sure why I should be concerned with limiting town's options if it increases town's chances of victory.
No, that's not what I'm saying - I'm saying that by telling town that you'll nay-vote any team that you're not a part of, you're forcing town to consider you as a part of their team by virtue of them having a guaranteed nay-vote if they don't. I expect you and everyone else to include themselves on their own D1 team, not to would be ridiculous, but that's not what you said - you said you'd nay-vote any team you're not a part of. That's scummy as shit Kita.
You can think worse of me, but it makes the most sense from a game theory perspective.
Here is the probability of selecting three town players from the pool of eight others: 5c3/8c3 = 17.8% chance of success
Now here is the probability of selecting two other town players from the pool of eight players: 5c2/8c2 = 35.7% chance of success
It's not the perfect model because its picking at random, but essentially I'm doubling our chances of success by including myself on the team. I understand if everyone would follow this plan, we could never agree on a team, but if I can convince others to include me, I'm furthering the town win condition.
On February 22 2012 05:25 Palmar wrote: Kitaman is being so dumb he could be town.
<3
On February 22 2012 05:25 Palmar wrote: Like sentinel and chaoser are also kinda scummy, but one of them is probably town, of those three that is. I'm not sure though
Confusing chaos with chaoser? You shouldn't put up with that chaos.
Assuming Dirk and Navillus show up and vote yay on the team, it will pass. Hopefully Dirk will realize what's up and vote nay, or we'll be able to convince VE or prpl to change to nay.
I just really think we can do better as far as a D1 team goes. Sent, Dirk, VE, and myself are all solid picks imo.
On February 22 2012 05:10 kitaman27 wrote: I sent my nay vote in as well. Doesn't make much sense to me to support a team where I'm not a part of on day one.
You're severely limiting town's options with this mindset - if everyone adopted it, there'd be no way to get a 5 person majority.
I don't like this post at all.
If you're town, are you saying that you're more confidant that you can select three other townies than yourself and two other townies? It's basic math. I'm not sure why I should be concerned with limiting town's options if it increases town's chances of victory.
No, that's not what I'm saying - I'm saying that by telling town that you'll nay-vote any team that you're not a part of, you're forcing town to consider you as a part of their team by virtue of them having a guaranteed nay-vote if they don't. I expect you and everyone else to include themselves on their own D1 team, not to would be ridiculous, but that's not what you said - you said you'd nay-vote any team you're not a part of. That's scummy as shit Kita.
You can think worse of me, but it makes the most sense from a game theory perspective.
Here is the probability of selecting three town players from the pool of eight others: 5c3/8c3 = 17.8% chance of success
Now here is the probability of selecting two other town players from the pool of eight players: 5c2/8c2 = 35.7% chance of success
It's not the perfect model because its picking at random, but essentially I'm doubling our chances of success by including myself on the team. I understand if everyone would follow this plan, we could never agree on a team, but if I can convince others to include me, I'm furthering the town win condition.
On February 22 2012 05:25 Palmar wrote: Like sentinel and chaoser are also kinda scummy, but one of them is probably town, of those three that is. I'm not sure though
Confusing chaos with chaoser? You shouldn't put up with that chaos.
Yeah we had that discussion last Resistance. You're absolutely right, which is why selecting yourself for YOUR TEAM is optimal - but saying that you'll nay-vote any team that doesn't include you increases the odds of us not selecting a team in time, resulting in mission failure with NO information gained. It's a scum maneuver Kita, and you're scummy for doing it. I don't care how 'mathematically sound' it is from your perspective - we're supposed to be working together. You're not interested in working together. Like Palmar, you want everyone to work for you. Either get over yourself or don't participate in missions. That's basically what it boils down to, for me.
@kita except for the 33.3% chance you're not town and thus 0% success (unless you don't sabotage, but that's not really a probability issue)
I mean, claiming you're town is one thing, but using it as evidence, saying "I should be on your team because I know I'm town" anyone could say that. I'm the Pope. Am I suddenly wearing white robes and sitting in the Vatican? No.
On February 22 2012 06:15 Dirkzor wrote: I'll vote yes now. I would post the same team (maybe switch palmar to someone else) anyway so I can't ask for something better at this point.
Why not ask for something better? We have tons of time, and the deadline will extend if it needs to. I see no reason to settle for anything but the towniest D1 team possible.
On February 22 2012 06:15 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah we had that discussion last Resistance. You're absolutely right, which is why selecting yourself for YOUR TEAM is optimal - but saying that you'll nay-vote any team that doesn't include you increases the odds of us not selecting a team in time, resulting in mission failure with NO information gained.
I was under the assumption that the team leaders would continue to rotate until one was selected. I asked in the thread, but received no reply. If this was the case, then obviously I would approve a team close to the deadline over no team at all. Are you honestly trying to say that I'm pushing a "skip the first mission" agenda? -_-
Doesn't look like it matters though as the team looks to be approved.
On February 22 2012 06:18 prplhz wrote: @kitaman27 Are you saying that it's optimal town play to autonay any team that you are not on yourself?
@Palmar What should we do with Dirkzor and Navilus if this team fails?
Apparently Palmar's plan is to send a D2 team if Dirk Navi +2, excluding himself if his team fails. I'm SURE this must be a misunderstanding, but I've asked him numerous times and he keeps on claiming that this is what we should do D2, which makes no sense.
On February 22 2012 06:15 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah we had that discussion last Resistance. You're absolutely right, which is why selecting yourself for YOUR TEAM is optimal - but saying that you'll nay-vote any team that doesn't include you increases the odds of us not selecting a team in time, resulting in mission failure with NO information gained.
I was under the assumption that the team leaders would continue to rotate until one was selected. I asked in the thread, but received no reply. If this was the case, then obviously I would approve a team close to the deadline over no team at all. Are you honestly trying to say that I'm pushing a "skip the first mission" agenda? -_-
Doesn't look like it matters though as the team looks to be approved.
Team leaders rotate until one is selected, and I think the deadline gets extended if we get too close.
On February 22 2012 06:18 prplhz wrote: @kitaman27 Are you saying that it's optimal town play to autonay any team that you are not on yourself?
Yep, unless its close to the deadline, like mentioned before. Obviously, I can't prove to anyone my alignment until I'm included, but I know my own alignment and it would be silly not to push an advantage if it were obtainable.
On February 22 2012 06:18 prplhz wrote: @kitaman27 Are you saying that it's optimal town play to autonay any team that you are not on yourself?
@Palmar What should we do with Dirkzor and Navilus if this team fails?
Apparently Palmar's plan is to send a D2 team if Dirk Navi +2, excluding himself if his team fails. I'm SURE this must be a misunderstanding, but I've asked him numerous times and he keeps on claiming that this is what we should do D2, which makes no sense.
On February 22 2012 06:18 prplhz wrote: @kitaman27 Are you saying that it's optimal town play to autonay any team that you are not on yourself?
Yep, unless its close to the deadline, like mentioned before. Obviously, I can't prove to anyone my alignment until I'm included, but I know my own alignment and it would be silly not to push an advantage if it were obtainable.
OK OK but i want you to imagine a situation where EVERY town player does what you say. Then everyone butts heads forever. It makes sense to try to compromise and get reads early rather than waiting for the deadline...
On February 22 2012 06:18 prplhz wrote: @kitaman27 Are you saying that it's optimal town play to autonay any team that you are not on yourself?
Yep, unless its close to the deadline, like mentioned before. Obviously, I can't prove to anyone my alignment until I'm included, but I know my own alignment and it would be silly not to push an advantage if it were obtainable.
I'm going to nayvote any team including you if you keep posting crap like this.
It's not optimal because everyone votes for themselves. 3 people are on the team, 6 are not on the team. Nothing will get done.
On February 22 2012 06:18 prplhz wrote: @kitaman27 Are you saying that it's optimal town play to autonay any team that you are not on yourself?
@Palmar What should we do with Dirkzor and Navilus if this team fails?
Apparently Palmar's plan is to send a D2 team if Dirk Navi +2, excluding himself if his team fails. I'm SURE this must be a misunderstanding, but I've asked him numerous times and he keeps on claiming that this is what we should do D2, which makes no sense.
That question was clearly not addressed to you.
Why are you answering a question for Palmar?
Fair enough. I shouldn't put words in his mouth. I'll wait for him to come and start hussling, then shoot him down.
On February 22 2012 06:18 prplhz wrote: @kitaman27 Are you saying that it's optimal town play to autonay any team that you are not on yourself?
Yep, unless its close to the deadline, like mentioned before. Obviously, I can't prove to anyone my alignment until I'm included, but I know my own alignment and it would be silly not to push an advantage if it were obtainable.
I'm going to nayvote any team including you if you keep posting crap like this.
It's not optimal because everyone votes for themselves. 3 people are on the team, 6 are not on the team. Nothing will get done.
funny how everyone keeps shooting me down for pushing my own perspective. Of course I understand that no progress will be made if everyone nays teams without themselves. I'm simply pushing the one fact in the game that I know will improve our chances for success. With nine selection phases, there is more than enough time for a couple rounds of stalemate. I've already given my list of town and scum reads so its not like I'm not contributing elsewise.
Palmar's "I'll nay any time that isn't this" is exactly the same as my argument except he happened to select before me this round.
Palmar is just actually saying something about other people too. You're just saying "I'm town MEH". Palmar is saying "These three people are town, I'm among these three people". One thing is a lot more useful to town than the other, which is more obstructive. Blazinghand is hyperviolently (maybe not for his standards but I don't really know much about him other than he CAN be relatively civilized when he tries his best) opposing this team and you are policy-naying it. I don't think any of you are looking very good.
On February 22 2012 06:18 prplhz wrote: @kitaman27 Are you saying that it's optimal town play to autonay any team that you are not on yourself?
Yep, unless its close to the deadline, like mentioned before. Obviously, I can't prove to anyone my alignment until I'm included, but I know my own alignment and it would be silly not to push an advantage if it were obtainable.
I'm going to nayvote any team including you if you keep posting crap like this.
It's not optimal because everyone votes for themselves. 3 people are on the team, 6 are not on the team. Nothing will get done.
funny how everyone keeps shooting me down for pushing my own perspective. Of course I understand that no progress will be made if everyone nays teams without themselves. I'm simply pushing the one fact in the game that I know will improve our chances for success. With nine selection phases, there is more than enough time for a couple rounds of stalemate. I've already given my list of town and scum reads so its not like I'm not contributing elsewise.
Palmar's "I'll nay any time that isn't this" is exactly the same as my argument except he happened to select before me this round.
Palmar is at least trying to justify why he's picking Navillus.
Your "one fact" is unprovable at this stage in the game, the fact that you are town.
And there will be more than nine if everyone stalemates like you're trying to.
Maybe I'm missing it Kitaman, but I don't see a "list of your town and scum reads". I see you "jokingly" calling everyone you said was "buddying" early on "so town"...unless that's really your town list, I'm not seeing anything like that in your filter.
On February 22 2012 06:34 prplhz wrote: Palmar is just actually saying something about other people too. You're just saying "I'm town MEH". Palmar is saying "These three people are town, I'm among these three people". One thing is a lot more useful to town than the other, which is more obstructive. Blazinghand is hyperviolently (maybe not for his standards but I don't really know much about him other than he CAN be relatively civilized when he tries his best) opposing this team and you are policy-naying it. I don't think any of you are looking very good.
hmm? That's simply not true. I've named the players that I think would be good choices to go along with me. I've also named who I wouldn't want to see. It's just that Palmar has had a chance to submit his team. I think some combination me, VE, blazing and dirk would be ideal for their vocalize opinion of others and their willingness not to play a careful game or get themselves in trouble.
On February 22 2012 06:39 VisceraEyes wrote: Maybe I'm missing it Kitaman, but I don't see a "list of your town and scum reads". I see you "jokingly" calling everyone you said was "buddying" early on "so town"...unless that's really your town list, I'm not seeing anything like that in your filter.
Are you sure you looked?
On February 21 2012 06:35 kitaman27 wrote: If I would be selecting a team right now, I'd probably go with the most vocal players. The ones that are willing to call others out. Likely some combination of myself, blazing, dirk, VE.
I'd be opposed to a team with sentinel (because of this post) and probably nav (too little info to go on)
On February 20 2012 11:04 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Aggressive tone means we're sure of ourselves instead of just going along with someone else.
Also, I have an argument and I'm making it clear now.
This post doesn't sound natural to me. It's as if he is trying to prove to us how can be aggressive by "having an argument and making it clear". He hasn't been even been aggressive towards any players, offering only wishy-washy statements on chaos and blazing. If I had to pick out one player as scum so far, it would be him.
On February 21 2012 23:36 kitaman27 wrote: Palmar, I dislike how many times you are calling yourself confirmed town. What does your alignment in past games have anything to do with your current alignment?
I mentioned that I would nay a team with Nav, but I actually think I might change my mind. I don't see a reason why a scum player would dodge a team selection, rather than just nominate himself and two others. I like that dirk is aggressive and vocal, but I'll wait to see what his reasoning is to want to deny my spot. I know I'm town, so the best way I can ensure we pass the first mission is if I'm part of the team. I'll probably be voting nay unless something changes my mind in the next 12 hours.
That is correct. Not that it means anything when I say this, since I'm not currently suggesting a team. Given the opportunity, I would suggest that team however. I would also yay vote that team if suggested.
On February 22 2012 08:06 Blazinghand wrote: That is correct. Not that it means anything when I say this, since I'm not currently suggesting a team. Given the opportunity, I would suggest that team however. I would also yay vote that team if suggested.
I'm up next, and as I said before this is the team I'll suggest. If Palmar's team gets passed I'll reread the thread and pick a fourth member.
On February 22 2012 00:15 Dirkzor wrote: Chaos: You're clearly reading the thread and responding. Why not respond to my defence of your case?
Kita: I think I believe that you just didn't know. Which is a big town tell. Did you read the first resistance game?
Had to go to work and didn't have much time to post, and there was basically nothing to respond to anyway. Am I overthinking it? No. Then you add in a slight OMGUS (although I'm not sure if you were actually calling me scum or not, that was unclear) by saying that I was only contributing because I was under pressure at the time.
On February 22 2012 05:25 Dirkzor wrote: Kita the only thing you got going for you know is that you are/were pretty ignorant about the setup suggesting you aren't scum. But as I have no way to know that it is not a play its hard to convince me that you are town.
In what way does ignorance of the setup indicate town? Scum are not able to communicate with each other, so it's just as possible for scum to not understand the setup as it is for town.
It's possible to feign ignorance as well. Ignorance is ignorance, not an indicator of alignment.
As for Palmar, I'm doubly glad I nayvoted his team now. After a childish outburst such as he displayed, I wouldn't be comfortable sending him on a mission. Pouting and apathy are no way to get things done. What would have been proper would be to defend his choices and use logic, rather than essentially giving up.
On February 22 2012 09:04 chaos13 wrote: As for Palmar, I'm doubly glad I nayvoted his team now. After a childish outburst such as he displayed, I wouldn't be comfortable sending him on a mission. Pouting and apathy are no way to get things done. What would have been proper would be to defend his choices and use logic, rather than essentially giving up.
On February 22 2012 09:04 chaos13 wrote: As for Palmar, I'm doubly glad I nayvoted his team now. After a childish outburst such as he displayed, I wouldn't be comfortable sending him on a mission. Pouting and apathy are no way to get things done. What would have been proper would be to defend his choices and use logic, rather than essentially giving up.
Does this make me scum?
Not caring about town does. Do you care Palmar? Or are you going to throw a hissy fit that I even had to ask?
On February 22 2012 09:04 chaos13 wrote: As for Palmar, I'm doubly glad I nayvoted his team now. After a childish outburst such as he displayed, I wouldn't be comfortable sending him on a mission. Pouting and apathy are no way to get things done. What would have been proper would be to defend his choices and use logic, rather than essentially giving up.
Does this make me scum?
That remains to be seen. Sure as hell doesn't make you appear any more pro-town in my eyes though.
On February 22 2012 09:04 chaos13 wrote: As for Palmar, I'm doubly glad I nayvoted his team now. After a childish outburst such as he displayed, I wouldn't be comfortable sending him on a mission. Pouting and apathy are no way to get things done. What would have been proper would be to defend his choices and use logic, rather than essentially giving up.
Does this make me scum?
That remains to be seen. Sure as hell doesn't make you appear any more pro-town in my eyes though.
See, if more people acted like chaos when under suspicion, less people would be lynched unjustly. *brofist*
Incidentally, the fact that chaos changed his tune when there's NO threat of lynch is doubly telling. Welcome to my town-reads, chaos13. You'll find the nekkid bitches over behind the Tekken Arcade collection. Enjoy.
On February 22 2012 05:16 kitaman27 wrote: Is there a punishment if we can decide on a team within a certain amount of time?
You may stretch out the day for weeks if you feel like it, if you repeatedly nay-vote team after team. We may ask leaders to provide us teams in advance to speed up the process if the day has gone on long enough, but you will always have 24 hours to vote for each team, even after the first 72 hours of the day.
However, there will be a punishment for those failing to provide a team when they are leader, or who don´t vote on a team before the deadline. Remember to vote on your own team, we don´t assume you yay-vote your own team.
On February 22 2012 05:16 kitaman27 wrote: Is there a punishment if we can decide on a team within a certain amount of time?
You may stretch out the day for weeks if you feel like it, if you repeatedly nay-vote team after team. We may ask leaders to provide us teams in advance to speed up the process if the day has gone on long enough, but you will always have 24 hours to vote for each team, even after the first 72 hours of the day.
However, there will be a punishment for those failing to provide a team when they are leader, or who don´t vote on a team before the deadline. Remember to vote on your own team, we don´t assume you yay-vote your own team.
That's different - didn't you assume as much last game I mean, not that it matters much - anyone nay-voting their own team has their own problems....but I'm just saying, I thought in the last game that was a given.
On February 22 2012 05:16 kitaman27 wrote: Is there a punishment if we can decide on a team within a certain amount of time?
You may stretch out the day for weeks if you feel like it, if you repeatedly nay-vote team after team. We may ask leaders to provide us teams in advance to speed up the process if the day has gone on long enough, but you will always have 24 hours to vote for each team, even after the first 72 hours of the day.
However, there will be a punishment for those failing to provide a team when they are leader, or who don´t vote on a team before the deadline. Remember to vote on your own team, we don´t assume you yay-vote your own team.
That's different - didn't you assume as much last game I mean, not that it matters much - anyone nay-voting their own team has their own problems....but I'm just saying, I thought in the last game that was a given.
It could be different because this time votes are being counted via PM rather than in a thread-- it's easier to do it with a straight-up vote count than by reading the thread.
Navillus - Failed to vote! Palmar - Yay [UoN]Sentinel - Nay kitaman27 - Nay Dirkzor - Yay chaos13 - Nay VisceraEyes - Nay Blazinghand - Nay prplhz - Yay
3 Yays, 6 Nays Team Palmar is Rejected!
[UoN]Sentinel is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in 24 hours at 14:00 GMT (+00:00), or 23 february 23:00 KST. If [UoN]Sentinel has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be the Leader.
chaos13 is always dumb so I can't read his alignment at all. Like it's terribly obvious from the way I've been posting, and specifically by the post that he quoted, that I'm town, yet it gives him scumread on me. Logically he should thus be scum, but since I know he just doesn't give a fuck about thinking in mafia, he can be either alignment.
I still think you are probably towny Dirkzor. Mostly from your reaction to people calling you out early in the game.
Navillus's motivation seems to cannot be scum-influenced, so I like him.
prplhz I was starting to think him town, but his latest reply of picking the two most scummy people as the greenest people in his group strikes me as weird.
No clue what sentinel is.
VE seems to be putting enough effort and interest in the game for him to be town, I would say he might be okay on a team. I have no idea why he didn't yayvote my team though, He should know I'm town by now. He's not terrible. I need a real good explanation of why VE didn't want my team to go.
Kitaman is just failing and being dumb. No idea if it's intentional (scum) or accidental (town). Too risky to put him on a team right now, I think, especially with better options.
no wait, why do you not like ve navillus and dirkzor?
I mean, I don't want to send you, you don't want to send me, we both agree that ve and sentinel are very towny, and since you think I'm scum it makes no sense for you to think dirkzor is scum either, right?
Man I shouldnt even be wasting my time on you. If you suggested a reasonable d1 team thatd be fine but these post-hoc suggestions earn you no cred with me, same as navi's
On February 23 2012 01:31 Blazinghand wrote: Man I shouldnt even be wasting my time on you. If you suggested a reasonable d1 team thatd be fine but these post-hoc suggestions earn you no cred with me, same as navi's
On February 23 2012 01:31 Blazinghand wrote: Man I shouldnt even be wasting my time on you. If you suggested a reasonable d1 team thatd be fine but these post-hoc suggestions earn you no cred with me, same as navi's
It's hard to earn credit with scum.
Thats why i dont care about you downvoting my teams, scum.
VisceraEyes is scum because he changed his opinion so rapidly.
On February 22 2012 06:09 VisceraEyes wrote: I voted Yay on Palmar's proposal. With Prpl and the other two on Palmar's team, we should be good to go.
On February 22 2012 08:05 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Vote Team Palmar: Nay
Let's see what Sentinal's got.
Like what the fuck.
chaos13 is scum because he is discussing stuff that would only benefit scum, but if he's just not thinking straight then alright, he also changed his opinion rapidly on your team.
kitaman27 did all the "oh lulz scum can't talk?" which seems careless for anyone to do so that's pointing town. He's scum because he used the monumentally bad "policy-nay" reason to vote nay on your team.
I'm unsure about Blazinghand because he's a crazy man.
prplhz, are you town? Do you think it's unreasonable to expect VE to just whatever the fuck he feels like? Him being uncertain, random and illogical says to me it's more likely he's town than scum? Why do you not agree with that assessment? Do you think your argument of "him changing his mind fast" is a valid one?
No kita, you haven't done anything extremely towny, and I think you're not dumb. That is why I don't think you as town would be unaware of the fact mafia can't communicate, and thus you could be scum, trying to fake dumbness.
So which is it? Are you really that ignorant about the setup? Did you truly and honestly not know scum could not communicate during daytime?
Kita: You must admit you haven't exactly been spot on with the setup... So much basic info i would think everyone knew that you apparently didn't. Hence the stupid part.
About VE: I found it weird how Chaos few post changed his mind about chaos completely. I would not like him on a team.
In addition kita, it's clearly dumb to refuse to vote any setup without yourself on it, that way the game cannot progress. Why did you say that? It's stupid as fuck. You're not stupid...
I'm not sure, but I _think_ that if I had to pick a fifth townie, it'd be chaos13, although I'm definitely not sure. All logic says he is autoscum because he's playing so badly if he's town, but he has played incredibly bad town in the past...
On February 23 2012 01:45 Palmar wrote: No kita, you haven't done anything extremely towny, and I think you're not dumb. That is why I don't think you as town would be unaware of the fact mafia can't communicate, and thus you could be scum, trying to fake dumbness.
So which is it? Are you really that ignorant about the setup? Did you truly and honestly not know scum could not communicate during daytime?
You're making a huge deal out of a single mishap. I missed the small print in the OP saying that scum were not allowed to communicate. Stop bullying me and painting me as an idiot for making a completely reasonable assumption.
On February 23 2012 01:46 Palmar wrote: In addition kita, it's clearly dumb to refuse to vote any setup without yourself on it, that way the game cannot progress. Why did you say that? It's stupid as fuck. You're not stupid...
lol don't play this game. You know just as well as I do that you want to be part of the first team as well. Just because I didn't pass your team, my actions have not been anti-town. You act as if a lack of progress is some super secret scum agenda. Forumite already confirmed that there is no submission deadline. Now answer me this, what benefits town more: -Auto yay the first proposed team with a 17% sucess rate and cross my fingers -Nay the first few proposed teams, gain information about who supports who, and attempt to get myself included on the team to increase our odds to 34%
There is literally no reason to rush the team decision other than getting this over with. If it becomes clear that I'm not going to get myself included, I'll have a much better idea who to send yay 5 days from now.
On February 23 2012 02:00 kitaman27 wrote: There is literally no reason to rush the team decision other than getting this over with. If it becomes clear that I'm not going to get myself included, I'll have a much better idea who to send yay 5 days from now.
In b4 I get called retarded. No this does not mean that I'll auto nay any teams submitted within the next 5 days.
I'm not trying to paint you as having scum agenda.
I just don't know what to think of your townplay. And for me personally, my reads generally rock early in the game, and start sucking later, which is why I see no reason to drag this on. And your logic is still dumb.
On February 23 2012 01:45 Palmar wrote: No kita, you haven't done anything extremely towny, and I think you're not dumb. That is why I don't think you as town would be unaware of the fact mafia can't communicate, and thus you could be scum, trying to fake dumbness.
So which is it? Are you really that ignorant about the setup? Did you truly and honestly not know scum could not communicate during daytime?
You're making a huge deal out of a single mishap. I missed the small print in the OP saying that scum were not allowed to communicate. Stop bullying me and painting me as an idiot for making a completely reasonable assumption.
OR you intentionally PRETENDED not to see the small print in the OP. There's really know way for us to know which it was so this doesn't count as pro-town at all. It's just WIFOM.
Palmar: I don't know why you're so stuck on Navillus. What kind of non-you non-navillus 3-man team would you suggest?
On February 23 2012 01:45 Palmar wrote: No kita, you haven't done anything extremely towny, and I think you're not dumb. That is why I don't think you as town would be unaware of the fact mafia can't communicate, and thus you could be scum, trying to fake dumbness.
So which is it? Are you really that ignorant about the setup? Did you truly and honestly not know scum could not communicate during daytime?
You're making a huge deal out of a single mishap. I missed the small print in the OP saying that scum were not allowed to communicate. Stop bullying me and painting me as an idiot for making a completely reasonable assumption.
OR you intentionally PRETENDED not to see the small print in the OP. There's really know way for us to know which it was so this doesn't count as pro-town at all. It's just WIFOM.
But that's exactly the thing! I'm not pretending to say "hey guys look! I don't know about the scum rules! That must make me town!". Its other people who are calling it pro-town.
On February 23 2012 02:05 Palmar wrote: I just don't know what to think of your townplay. And for me personally, my reads generally rock early in the game, and start sucking later, which is why I see no reason to drag this on. And your logic is still dumb.
That doesn't make sense. More information leads to worse conclusions?
On February 23 2012 01:45 Palmar wrote: No kita, you haven't done anything extremely towny, and I think you're not dumb. That is why I don't think you as town would be unaware of the fact mafia can't communicate, and thus you could be scum, trying to fake dumbness.
So which is it? Are you really that ignorant about the setup? Did you truly and honestly not know scum could not communicate during daytime?
You're making a huge deal out of a single mishap. I missed the small print in the OP saying that scum were not allowed to communicate. Stop bullying me and painting me as an idiot for making a completely reasonable assumption.
OR you intentionally PRETENDED not to see the small print in the OP. There's really know way for us to know which it was so this doesn't count as pro-town at all. It's just WIFOM.
But that's exactly the thing! I'm not pretending to say "hey guys look! I don't know about the scum rules! That must make me town!". Its other people who are calling it pro-town.
On February 23 2012 02:05 Palmar wrote: I just don't know what to think of your townplay. And for me personally, my reads generally rock early in the game, and start sucking later, which is why I see no reason to drag this on. And your logic is still dumb.
That doesn't make sense. More information leads to worse conclusions?
Palmar's just trying to get us to rush into picking a bad team. He's also mad that his crap team got shot down. Reasonably speaking each team should be evaluated on its face (not some "does it give Palmar a boner" metric or some "does this team have kitaman27" metric) and once we get the team with the three towniest players, me, VE, and Sent on it, we can send it out.
Sentinel legitimately called out Navillus for not posting a team and was willing to butt heads with Palmar for it. This strikes me as pro-town behavior that a town player would do. He also called out Kita for his shitty "I only ever vote teams with myself on it idea" and generally has been encouraging good play and pointing out shitty / scummy play. Check his filter-- he calls it like he sees it, and is my biggest town read behind VE.
Okay I just caught up with everything to some degree, and first thing is I want to apologize to everyone in this thread and especially the mods, what I've been doing has been really shitty of me and I'm very sorry.
As some sort of explanation I thought the game was starting later than it did and over the past 4 or 5 days I've been first stuck at a debate tournament then driving for hours around Vermont looking at colleges, these did not give me a great deal of access to the internet. To be clear this isn't an excuse, I still should have found a way to stay active and I deserve any and all hate that I get, I just want you guys to know there is some sort of reason beyond I don't give a shit.
For right now, I am home and on break until next Monday, I will stay active and if there are any periods where I won't be able to I will make it clear and be active before and after them.
--------------------
On the game, first palmar's team would have been great, I am town. Normally I actually wouldn't care if people think I'm scum as long as it's not enough to get me lynched, but this is a game where every town that people think is scum greatly increases the chances that a scum gets on the team so it needs to be clear that I'm town.
Now I know you guys don't have almost anything to go off of on me but look at what you have. You have me being extremely inactive, now first if you look at my games I have actually never flipped scum on TL, this means 2 things. 1) Look at my town meta, I am often very inactive, this is not the exception to the norm. 2) Don't any of you think that maybe, if I flipped scum for my very first time, I would care about it? The fact is if I got my first scum here I would have been excited enough to definitely try to do something.
In addition to that, my inactivity pretty clearly wasn't some like strategic lurking where I try to stay just under the radar and avoid discussion of me... or if it was I'm fucking terrible at that. No I think it's pretty clear what I was doing was just plain not being in this thread for very long stretches of time. Now that is not a tell either way and if it is it's a town tell per the last paragraph, I'm not dumb enough to think that just never posting would somehow advance the scum objective especially when I had power. I was inactive because of RL but if anything I would have been much more active as scum.
On to the proposed teams I should personally apologize to Palmar because he despite me massively screwing up chose a great team and I didn't even come back to vote for it. That team was perfect. I am town, Palmar's reads on me were exactly right and Dirkzor is my best town read of someone else, Palmar may or may not have been but then if there was sabatoge he wouldn't have been able to get back on a team, he himself said that it would point to him, it wouldn't matter if he changed his mind we have him in text saying that he would be the likely scum one. At this point that makes me fairly confident that Palmar is town, and at that point I will be nay-voting any team that doesn't have as its second and thirds either me, Palmar, or Dirkzor.
Also this is not me jumping into the thread trying to dictate things, this is just the best play that I can see right now. If my reads are correct then we have 3 likely town, that's half the town. Any team that decides its smart to choose from the rest of the pool almost 100% guarantees that it will have scum.
On February 23 2012 02:55 Navillus wrote: 2) Don't any of you think that maybe, if I flipped scum for my very first time, I would care about it? The fact is if I got my first scum here I would have been excited enough to definitely try to do something.
Assuming you were legitimately in Vermont, this is not a valid argument. If you can't make it to the thread you can't make it to the thread. I assume you would be excited to play this game regardless.
That being said, it's good to have you back. If you post something other than "hi guys I'm totally town" I'll reconsider my standing nay-vote against you.
As I said the Vermont thing was something of an explanation but definitely not an excuse. If I'm being honest, I could have found a way to post, I could have used my smartphone when I had service (like half of the state doesn't have service) or slowed us down for ten minutes when we stopped at colleges and connected my laptop, and I probably would have if I were scum and knew that I was 1/3 of my team and really wanted to win my first scumgame, but I'm not so I didn't.
Well that's right Palmar. I just think that VisceraEyes tries to think a lot more as town these days and 2 hours from yay to nay seems like he's overdoing the careless-town act. kitaman27 could absolutely just be playing dumb with the "mafia doesn't have qt?" but that just seems stupid. People like him less because of this and it was totally unnecessary if he was scum.
I'm very unsure about both of them but VisceraEyes strikes me as more likely to be scum than kitaman27. If we can agree on Dirkzor's proposal that would be sweet.
On February 23 2012 03:03 Navillus wrote: As I said the Vermont thing was something of an explanation but definitely not an excuse. If I'm being honest, I could have found a way to post, I could have used my smartphone when I had service (like half of the state doesn't have service) or slowed us down for ten minutes when we stopped at colleges and connected my laptop, and I probably would have if I were scum and knew that I was 1/3 of my team and really wanted to win my first scumgame, but I'm not so I didn't.
This isn't a legitimate argument. Let me break it down for you:
Okay, my school's filter got updated and included the TL forums (and the account to get around the filter got locked) so sorry about the delay.
@Nav, I just read your posts - I'm fairly convinced you're in the green and legitimately AFK (and also because I'm kinda guilty of this too)... but I'm sorry, can't include you due to space.
Blazinghand is definitely going on the team. All-around activity, constant opinions, didn't bandwagon on anything from the start of the game.
Prplhz's post after I got up (the one where he said who I should pick on his team) is absolute retardation. He says pick two people from a list of - the team I nayvoted, and him! Oh how nice!
I'm adding Viscera. He makes sense. Palmar, a guy who normally makes sense, is not making sense. Kita is still trying to sugarcoat his argument. Navillus just got back so I'm waiting for more (although I'm not convinced he's spy anymore). I like Chaos, he's probably fourth on my list but I only have space for three people. Dirkzor was looking good up until:
On February 23 2012 02:16 Dirkzor wrote: Team: Me, Kita and Prp ?
No.
Team [UoN]Sentinel: [UoN]Sentinel, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
On February 23 2012 03:03 Navillus wrote: As I said the Vermont thing was something of an explanation but definitely not an excuse. If I'm being honest, I could have found a way to post, I could have used my smartphone when I had service (like half of the state doesn't have service) or slowed us down for ten minutes when we stopped at colleges and connected my laptop, and I probably would have if I were scum and knew that I was 1/3 of my team and really wanted to win my first scumgame, but I'm not so I didn't.
This isn't a legitimate argument. Let me break it down for you:
This isn't an argument period. Let me break it down for you:
So as you can see in the above diagram, what you did is not actually an argument, I cannot respond to things that aren't arguments in the first place, tell me why it doesn't hold water and we can talk.
Also, ##Vote team [UoN]Sentinel: Nay
Per the reasoning in my big post up on this page, the odds that all 3 of you are town when I have fairly solid town reads on 2 or 3 other people are slim to none.
Things Navillus has done so far in this thread: Assert that he is town, nayvote a team with the three towniest towns Things Navillus has not done so far: Be useful, submit a team, vote yay on a team including himself, vote nay on a team including himself.
Ok, rather more reasonably, let me ask you a question. You say it's statistically improbably that VE Sent and I are all town, since you have 3 town reads elsewhere. Why not just say who you think is scum and who you think is town, and stop beating around the bush?
Blazing I'm not beating around the bush, I already posted it... Me, Dirkzor, and MAYBE Palmar, Palmar I have a much weaker read on but choosing none of them makes it pretty likely in my eyes that there will be scum on the team.
On February 23 2012 03:47 Navillus wrote: Blazing I'm not beating around the bush, I already posted it... Me, Dirkzor, and MAYBE Palmar, Palmar I have a much weaker read on but choosing none of them makes it pretty likely in my eyes that there will be scum on the team.
You have no reads on the other 6 players in the game? And you are aware that at the time Palmar chose your for his team he had no business doing so and was setting you up to be a fall guy right
In response to asking about my reads, after looking through the thread some more I do like the 3 people on this team individually, but me voting for them would then mean I'm basically betting on me being correct about all 3 scum and I'm just not confident enough to do that. I would probably yay this team if you were switched BH, I don't have much of a scumread on you but I do have stronger townreads in me (ofc) and Dirkz and getting the most sure town in this game is what's important.
do you not find it weird that he deduces I must be scum, and on that basis downvotes my team, then I offer to swap myself out for his strongest townread, you, and he still doesn't like it?
On February 23 2012 05:43 Palmar wrote: do you not find it weird that he deduces I must be scum, and on that basis downvotes my team, then I offer to swap myself out for his strongest townread, you, and he still doesn't like it?
I find it odd that you find it odd that I'd like anything but the team of my three strongest town reads. If you were gonna suggest a legitimate team, you should have done so when it was your turn to lead. You did not. Next time it rolls around to you, suggest a legitimate team.
I don't like Dirk since his interaction with you. I don't like Navillus, period. Currently acceptable third members for a team with VE or Sent: Chaos13, BH. MAYBE PRPL but I don't really like him atm.
Honestly I'm kind of shakey on Chaos13 too. I really would prefer it to be me, VE, and Sent. I don't think I can convince you to vote in a good team anyways since you don't want this mission to succeed.
You didn't - you suggested a team of you, dirkzor and navillus. You just posited a theoretical team that means nothing because you're not the leader. When you were leader, you were a part of the team.
Don't get all bent out of shape guy - that's not information I had. It looked to me like you were just asking questions of BH to "discover" his alignment. The fact that you're willing to yay-vote that team gives you delicious greenie points.
My 2c I would/will support that team, my 1 question is: at some point everyone seemed to decide that VE is town, can someone please point me to what stuff he did that gave everyone this read? I'm looking through his stuff now I'd just like to see why other people think he is, VE you can point me to it if you'd like. Also this isn't me contesting that read I'm just curious because I haven't been focusing on him.
On February 23 2012 10:17 Navillus wrote: My 2c I would/will support that team, my 1 question is: at some point everyone seemed to decide that VE is town, can someone please point me to what stuff he did that gave everyone this read? I'm looking through his stuff now I'd just like to see why other people think he is, VE you can point me to it if you'd like. Also this isn't me contesting that read I'm just curious because I haven't been focusing on him.
I decided he was town because he was pointing out flaws and inconsistencies in people's statements, and generally acting like a fearless town player. He wasn't afraid to call out navi on the non-team, pressure kita / chaos, and change his mind based on evidence and replies. He was initially apprehensive of Palmar, which I don't think he'd be inclined to do/say as scum.
After the discussion when He and I settled on the Sent/VE/BH team, he showed willingness to change his mind and nayvoted Palmar. Overall this strikes me as a town player honestly trying to figure out what's going on and make the towniest team possible. His filter is pretty short, though, so you should read for yourself and make your own judgment-- this is just my read.
There's like ~10 hours left between now and the vote deadline, FYI. I'm gonna catch some sleep and will be up before vote deadline. Make sure to yayvote us guys!
Sentinel have done jack this game to convince me he is town. BH is using bad logic all the time. His scumreads just doesn't add up to how scum would make a team. He have called Nav, Palmar and Me scum. What? That was the team palmar proposed and no sane scum would propose a team with more then 1 scum. VE is the best one on that team. But I'm still not sure.
I think the team is fine, but Sent is definitely the weakest link in my opinion, not BH. Poor logic is a poor indicator since we don't know BH's capacity for purly logical thinking (no offense BH, I've just only played the one game with you)...so what I'm basing that read on is his behavior in game (active, fearless, willingness to be in the spotlight) and secondarily meta (he sounded just like this in the last Resistance...where he was town an used piss-poor logic all game).
I still can't figure out Palmar. Sometimes he sounds town, sometimes not. His tone screams town, but I can't reconcile that with some of the things he's saying. Like, his insistence that BH is scum this game. We were both in Resistance, and while I know that Palmar isn't the biggest fan of meta (understatement,) he should at least recognize some of the town-telling tendencies I'm picking up where BH is concerned.
Admittely, Palmar is the superior scumhunter, and if he's town I could just be wrong - but it just feels off to me.
On February 23 2012 05:49 Blazinghand wrote: I don't like Dirk since his interaction with you. I don't like Navillus, period. Currently acceptable third members for a team with VE or Sent: Chaos13, BH. MAYBE PRPL but I don't really like him atm.
Like this post is super flawed in the logic part. Why would he not like me because how I interact with Palmar? Either Palmar is scum and put me (a townie) on his team or Palmar is town and have a bad read on me (and I'm the scum on the team).
The reason I liked the team Palmar made was because Palmar have good reads. So scum palmar or town palmar would pick 2 townies = me and nav. So the only thing that could go wrong is if Palmar is actually scum.
I might make a team that is: Dirk, Nav and VE (VE is the one that can change) if I get my turn. That team gets the benefit of having Palmars good read (or if he is scum his 100% town people) while I only have to get 1 read right.
I guess the hard part of this game is that when you create a team of 3 townies, you need to convince 2 more townies to vote for it. Thus if you have dumb people in town (and we have plenty), it's really hard.
As a token of me actually trying this game, I am just going to announce that I will indeed yayvote a team of Dirk/nav/VE. I am obviously less confident in it, but if anyone can make three correct town reads this game it's gonna be me.
On February 23 2012 17:15 chaos13 wrote: Thus is an eacaptalbe team. Scum , pleaset claim nmpw or IO wll linch you.
Calling scumteam now.
Dirksor Ppalmer. kita
That scum team makes absolutely no sense... If me and palmar are scum together why would palmar add us to the same team
People here have to start realizing that scum will likely be opposites and not buddying up.
I'd feel bad, but you're scum.
To town: my apologies, I was somewhat drunk last night and decided it would be a good idea to play some mafia.
Palmar and Kita are weak scumreads, and I think one out of the two of them is scum. The last one is most likely one of the players flying under the radar - there are a lot of players who haven't been the subject of discussion at all, hardly. As of the moment I would not be comfortable sending a team with Dirk, Palmar, or kitaman.
Team [UoN]Sentinel: [UoN]Sentinel, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Nay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Yay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team [UoN]Sentinel is Rejected!
kitaman27 is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in just over 24 hours, at 00:00 GMT (+00:00), or 24 february 01:00 KST. If kitaman27 has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be the Leader.
sentinel, you nayvoted the first team. Why did you do that? Do you think one of me/nav/dirk are scum? In addition, you saw the exchange between me and BH, do you think he's being logical?
On February 24 2012 00:36 Palmar wrote: the words put in your mouth make a lot more sense than your own, so maybe you should just stick with that?
You're a bright, cheerful, shining light in the center of town square. Right where the gallows would normally be. Now stop insulting players and try shutting the hell up.
Palmar I thought you were scum for the same reason I think kita is scum - your defense consisted of claiming you're town and virtually nothing else, and your defense of Navillus was setting him up to be a fall guy. If the team got sabotaged and it said "1 spy on team" then Navillus, who was under suspicion at the time, would take all of the fire for it.
I'll read the exchange a little bit later since the class I'm in ends in about 2 minutes - but I should be back in ~3 hours.
Okay I think most of us think that Kita is scum, but before we nayvote him we should try to agree on ONE team that we say should be the team, and then nayvote anything else and be even more sure of our scum read. I emphasize one because we can't come up with like a few "good" teams then let him choose because there will likely be scum in at least one of them and it lets him have the power to choose that. To start I'll propose/agree with what someone said last page, Me, Dirkzor, VE. As of right now unless we all agree on something else, I will nay any other team from Kita.
Navillus, do you have another town-read you'd be willing to sub in for yourself? I understand you'd rather not, yours being the only alignment yadda yadda, but do you have a town read besides me and Dirk that you'd be willing to send out theoretically?
Ehhh not really not just because I'm my only 100% town read also I just don't have that many people I'm comfortable with, honestly I think it would be a problem if I actually had like 4 or 5 people I'd be happy to put in, that would make it way too easy to get scum in. I suppose maybe sentinel and maybe Palmar, but honestly I can't say atm if I would yay-vote either of those.
On February 24 2012 01:31 Navillus wrote: Okay I think most of us think that Kita is scum, but before we nayvote him we should try to agree on ONE team that we say should be the team, and then nayvote anything else and be even more sure of our scum read. I emphasize one because we can't come up with like a few "good" teams then let him choose because there will likely be scum in at least one of them and it lets him have the power to choose that. To start I'll propose/agree with what someone said last page, Me, Dirkzor, VE. As of right now unless we all agree on something else, I will nay any other team from Kita.
Funny how the biggest reason people see me as scummy was because I wanted to be part of the team. Lets look at the first two teams:
Team Palmar: Palmar, Dirkzor, Navillus
Navillus - Failed to vote! Palmar - Yay [UoN]Sentinel - Nay kitaman27 - Nay Dirkzor - Yay chaos13 - Nay VisceraEyes - Nay Blazinghand - Nay prplhz - Yay
Team [UoN]Sentinel: [UoN]Sentinel, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Nay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Yay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
Of the 17 votes cast, FIFTEEN of them directly correlated to whether or not the player voting was included on the team. You guys can rant and moan as much as you want, but everyone else has been doing the same thing. I'm being called scummy is because I was being less diplomatic with my approach by making a bold statement.
Here is my team submission:
Myself Dirkzor VisceraEyes
Rather than auto 'naying' the team because I must be scum for wanting to win or missing a part of the setup, read through my filter. I have always had the towns best interest in mind.
Why I included Dirkzor: He is hunting for scum tells and making logical sense. Additionally, he isn't so overly confident that he appears to have knowledge of everyones alignment or that he is pushing a scum agenda.
Why I included VE: He is actively questioning things that don't make sense to him. He is willing to share his opinion without being prompted and isn't playing overly safe.
Dear Kita... please explain why 15/17 of the votes directly correlated to whether or not the player was on the team. I don't see too much proof of this.
Going through your filter, you accuse several players of "buddying" Dirkzor. Then you go and buddy Dirkzor (also you call him "aggressive and vocal" near the end of Page 1 of your filter). Double standards ftw.
Then come posts about misunderstanding the setup... then the posts that gave me a red read on him where his only piece of evidence was that he knows he's town. Then more bullshit math and then here we are.
I'll support Nav, Dirk and VE since I have pretty good reads on all of them for now.
On February 21 2012 05:31 Palmar wrote: I'm also considering kita as a possible townie. We need to get a team suggestion soon though.
On February 21 2012 18:44 Palmar wrote: I considered putting prplhz and kitaman on the team, they seem towny enough.
On February 22 2012 05:25 Palmar wrote: Kitaman is being so dumb he could be town
On February 23 2012 01:24 Palmar wrote: Kitaman is just failing and being dumb. No idea if it's intentional (scum) or accidental (town).
Oh hai Palmar. Glad to see you stop by. Funny how you've always called me dumb, rather than scum. Yet now you're going to auto-nay my submission because I'm included? (I'm sure you'll call me scum now that I've called you out). Only after others start the auto-nay kita campaign do you jump on it as well?
So lets get this straight, you refuse to vote for me because I missed the fact that mafia can communicate with each other? Or that I wanted to be part of the team (something you're voting record shows that you're 3/3 as well)
You can join sent on my scum list. No more bullying the town around.
On February 24 2012 05:20 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Nay.
Dear Kita... please explain why 15/17 of the votes directly correlated to whether or not the player was on the team. I don't see too much proof of this.
What is to explain? 15 out of 17 times a player has based their vote on whether or not they were included on the team. Literally the only reason people are attacking me is because I wanted to be on the team, yet according to the votes, this is a trend that has happened 90% of the time. You can't attack me for stating it and then give people like palmar a free pass when they don't say it outright.
On February 24 2012 05:20 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Going through your filter, you accuse several players of "buddying" Dirkzor. Then you go and buddy Dirkzor (also you call him "aggressive and vocal" near the end of Page 1 of your filter). Double standards ftw.
What so you think I should nominate players that I feel are scummy? Of course I'm going to explain why dirkzor is town if I'm putting him on my team. This is not double standards. This is you trying to come up with a reason to explain why I'm scum
On February 24 2012 05:28 Palmar wrote: I don't want to talk to you.
Of course you don't. You know that if you can discredit the strongest town opposition that the rest of the townies will sheep you. You haven't ever given a legitimate reason why I'm scum. You've never called me scum. Instead you call me dumb and use that as a reason why I shouldn't be included on a team.
On February 24 2012 05:20 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Nay.
Dear Kita... please explain why 15/17 of the votes directly correlated to whether or not the player was on the team. I don't see too much proof of this.
What is to explain? 15 out of 17 times a player has based their vote on whether or not they were included on the team. Literally the only reason people are attacking me is because I wanted to be on the team, yet according to the votes, this is a trend that has happened 90% of the time. You can't attack me for stating it and then give people like palmar a free pass when they don't say it outright.
Where did you get that statistic? Who are the two votes that WEREN'T based on being included on the team? Were they your two votes? Please stop using bullshit statistics. They are bullshit.
On February 24 2012 05:20 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Going through your filter, you accuse several players of "buddying" Dirkzor. Then you go and buddy Dirkzor (also you call him "aggressive and vocal" near the end of Page 1 of your filter). Double standards ftw.
What so you think I should nominate players that I feel are scummy? Of course I'm going to explain why dirkzor is town if I'm putting him on my team. This is not double standards. This is you trying to come up with a reason to explain why I'm scum
Herp derp you accuse people of buddying up to dirk because of low-intensity arguments like "he's aggressive and vocal" and then you magically produce those same arguments to explain why you're putting him on your team. That is the textbook definition of double standards.
I don't have to "try" to come up with a reason for you to be scum. You're virtually doing half of the work for me.
On February 24 2012 05:30 kitaman27 wrote: lol ninja'd by scum sentinel
On February 24 2012 05:20 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Nay.
Dear Kita... please explain why 15/17 of the votes directly correlated to whether or not the player was on the team. I don't see too much proof of this.
What is to explain? 15 out of 17 times a player has based their vote on whether or not they were included on the team. Literally the only reason people are attacking me is because I wanted to be on the team, yet according to the votes, this is a trend that has happened 90% of the time. You can't attack me for stating it and then give people like palmar a free pass when they don't say it outright.
Where did you get that statistic? Who are the two votes that WEREN'T based on being included on the team? Were they your two votes? Please stop using bullshit statistics. They are bullshit.
...The voting thread? lol you think I'm making them up on the spot?
One was prpl and one was chaos.
On February 24 2012 05:20 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Herp derp you accuse people of buddying up to dirk because of low-intensity arguments like "he's aggressive and vocal" and then you magically produce those same arguments to explain why you're putting him on your team. That is the textbook definition of double standards.
I'm pretty sure you've made up your mind regardless of what I say. Yes, I mentioned buddying the first hour into the game when players were calling people confirmed town based on 1 or 2 posts. You said you agree with dirk and VE are town right? So why are you attacking me for explaining why I think they are town? You're coming to a conclusion first and trying to find evidence to support it second.
On February 24 2012 06:01 Blazinghand wrote: I don't know why people are bothering to try to interact with Kita at all.
How about we think about this logically? Out of the 8 players, 5-6 are saying how they would nay vote me for extremely weak reasons (or none at all). Now if I'm scum, what reason do these players have to commit to policy vote against me for whatever teams I'm included in? There is an extremely less reward for bussing in this situation since there are no lynches. By reducing the available town pool from 5 players to 4 players, it drastically increases the scum teams chances, which is exactly what happens here.
prpl, chaos, dirk, VE, do you all agree that I'm auto scum?
On February 24 2012 06:01 Blazinghand wrote: I don't know why people are bothering to try to interact with Kita at all.
How about we think about this logically? Out of the 8 players, 5-6 are saying how they would nay vote me for extremely weak reasons (or none at all). Now if I'm scum, what reason do these players have to commit to policy vote against me for whatever teams I'm included in? There is an extremely less reward for bussing in this situation since there are no lynches. By reducing the available town pool from 5 players to 4 players, it drastically increases the scum teams chances, which is exactly what happens here.
prpl, chaos, dirk, VE, do you all agree that I'm auto scum?
First of all I suggest you post your team selection in the team thread, unless you're considering changing it.
Nobody is autoscum unless they make a scumslip.
However, as I mentioned earlier, I'm leaning towards scum on you, and I think that one of you or Palmar is scum, but not both. I can't imagine you two bussing each other this hard. The reasons you are scummy have already been gone over well enough, I have nothing new to contribute to it.
As for your team (if it's ever posted in the team thread) I'm nayvoting it. It is, in my opinion, three of the least pro-town players so far. Dirkzor is scum, VisceraEyes I'm not confident with, and you are likely to be scum. I would like to see a different team suggested by you. Remove yourself and Dirkzor, and I would be comfortable enough with VE to have him on a team.
A team consisting of myself, VE, and Navillus would be acceptable. VE could be switched out with prplhz or BH. Any other player included will cause me to nayvote unless I see serious improvement in play.
On February 24 2012 06:28 Palmar wrote: I have a plan. Everyone must provide 3 players that they'll vote into a team, but they cannot include themselves.
Nav/Dirk/VE for me
Navillus/VE/prplhz
Nice of you to include your scumbuddy Dirk in there.
On February 24 2012 06:38 Palmar wrote: hmm... still you're scum (it's quite obvious now) so I'm not sure if you're bluffing.
Easiest way to call a bluff is for people to actually suggest teams (via the mechanic in place) rather than having these discussions, since it could get voted in. When Chaos13 gets his turn to be leader, we can see what he really thinks.
On February 23 2012 01:24 Palmar wrote: Kitaman is just failing and being dumb. No idea if it's intentional (scum) or accidental (town).
Oh hai Palmar. Glad to see you stop by. Funny how you've always called me dumb, rather than scum. Yet now you're going to auto-nay my submission because I'm included? (I'm sure you'll call me scum now that I've called you out). Only after others start the auto-nay kita campaign do you jump on it as well?
So lets get this straight, you refuse to vote for me because I missed the fact that mafia can communicate with each other? Or that I wanted to be part of the team (something you're voting record shows that you're 3/3 as well)
You can join sent on my scum list. No more bullying the town around.
Will you talk to me about it then Palmar? This is a valid question. The amount of suspicion you have for kita seems directly proportionate to the day's proximity to his turn as leader. What gives?
Before I respond to Palmar's request, I'd like to have something of a dialogue with kitaman.
Just a few questions after I answer yours.
First of all, no. I don't think you're auto scum. You're one of my scum-reads, but if you're willing to explain to me why your team is better with you on it than without (as I feel right now, because you're one of my scumreads) then I can get down on a team with you on it. I'm just not going to yay-vote you because you asked nicely considering the misgivings I've had with the way you've approached the game. I'd hope you'd do the same with me if you're town and if I were a scum-read to you.
Now, you misrepresented my reasoning for voting. My Nay-Vote of Palmar's team was because it included him - who I've been leaning scum on. And my vote yay for the team we just shot down was based on the fact that I was okay with the two other members of the team - but because I was a part of the team I'll defer to the 'you can't prove that' mentality and say that you only misrepresented one of my votes, the first one.
Secondly, you're mistaken about at least my suspicion of you. It has nothing to do with 'whether you read about scum communication in the OP or not'. It's based solely around how you're approaching finding this, the D1 team. Yes, we all want to be on the team - regardless of our alignment. You, however, are holding your vote hostage. The price is inclusion on the team.
I don't negotiate in hostage situations. I'm the first guy to fire through the window, against protocol and orders. But, I'm willing to compromise (because that's the only way we move forward in this situation.)
Broheim. Tell me why you're holding your vote hostage. We all want to win, but we can't win without selecting a team. You're adopting a policy that you can't ask the rest of town to adopt in order to win. You're pushing an agenda. Tell me...why in the fuck I should trust you Kita?
What are your thoughts on prplhz?
And finally, if I don't like the answers to these questions, and decided for some reason that I'd nay-vote you the rest of the game regardless of information, would that be okay with you?
Why are you playing like you've got your head up your ass prplhz? Does it have anything to do with your alignment? I specifically commented in the Responsibility ObsQT that your play has vastly improved during the period I was off-site. I meant it then. What's your deal this game? Not taking it seriously because it's not, strictly speaking, Mafia? Are you, strictly speaking, a Spy? What gives?
I think that Palmar is town. This is mostly gut read because he's done some scummy things other than that.
I think that Dirkzor is town as I said early on. He's being pretty open and aggressive and he just strikes me as town. Gutty feeling.
I think that Navilus is town based on the arguments put forth in this thread by chaos13.
I am unsure about [UoN]Sentinel. I read up extensively on him for Normal Mini Mafia I and I was able to discern his alignment in that game but I don't know this time and that's a bad sign I think. "Your play is shit." seems very out of character for him.
I am unsure about you based on how you flip flopped on Palmar's team. Palmar pointed out that this was likely a townie trait and I've upgraded you a bit since then. Also, you haven't claimed scum yet and that's a plus.
I am unsure about kitaman27. He looks like he's busy but I'm having a hard time getting a read on him for real. His antagonism towards Palmar is also weird, like the "I'm the most vocal opposition blah blah blah" speech.
I don't think that Blazinghand is town because of how vehemently he opposed Palmar's team.
I don't think that chaos13 is town because he tried to discuss something that was scum favored but not town favored.
Sentinel's midnight analysis... it's only 9PM EST but I'm already tired so I might as well.
On February 23 2012 00:22 prplhz wrote: You'll notice the famed Icelandic gracefulness really shines through here.
Anyway, [UoN]Sentinel you're looking really bad for nayvoting that team. You should make a team of people from this list:
Me Navilus Dirkzor Palmar
and avoid the following
VisceraEyes chaos13 kitaman27 Blazinghand
If you want to include yourself that's okay but only if you're town.
This is the post that really ticked me off since I had green reads on 3/4 of your scumlist (pretty obvious who) and red reads on Palmar and iffy on Navillus.
Somewhere I said that you just recommended the team I nayvoted, plus yourself. Also you were backing Palmar.
Now that I don't really think anything of Palmar (although I'd still prefer a team without him on it) you're fine. This post still tarnishes your reputation in my eyes though... also your first post (not counting /in) was the same strain of thought kita was having, although not to an extreme. Back to your last post.
On February 24 2012 10:14 prplhz wrote: I think that Palmar is town. This is mostly gut read because he's done some scummy things other than that.
Not a lot to go on here.
I think that Dirkzor is town as I said early on. He's being pretty open and aggressive and he just strikes me as town. Gutty feeling.
Another gut feeling, moving on...
I think that Navilus is town based on the arguments put forth in this thread by chaos13.
Hold the phone...
I am unsure about [UoN]Sentinel. I read up extensively on him for Normal Mini Mafia I and I was able to discern his alignment in that game but I don't know this time and that's a bad sign I think. "Your play is shit." seems very out of character for him.
Usually you post beefy posts detailing what you think on a certain player somewhere in the thread. I don't see that kind of beef, coupled with those posts I mentioned, I think your play isn't meeting your usual output from what I've seen.
But yeah I've been Lieutenant Sarcasm a lot of this game. I'm still the Pope.
I am unsure about you based on how you flip flopped on Palmar's team. Palmar pointed out that this was likely a townie trait and I've upgraded you a bit since then. Also, you haven't claimed scum yet and that's a plus.
I'm not going to lie, that sentence made me fall out of my chair laughing.
I am unsure about kitaman27. He looks like he's busy but I'm having a hard time getting a read on him for real. His antagonism towards Palmar is also weird, like the "I'm the most vocal opposition blah blah blah" speech.
I don't think that Blazinghand is town because of how vehemently he opposed Palmar's team.
Palmar isn't a saint, and his early play has been scummy. He's gotten better though, I'll let him go on that. Kita I have no comment on or else I'll say some other hurtful comments.
I don't think that chaos13 is town because he tried to discuss something that was scum favored but not town favored.
Okay. Back to this gem.
I think that Navilus is town based on the arguments put forth in this thread by chaos13.
So... if I'm getting this right... you think Navillus is town because a person you think is scum vouched for him? Because that's what this sentence sounds like. Explain please.
Alright gents I've got a midterm coming up so I'm going dark for 14 hours. Gotta study and sleep. My nay vote is in for kita, for numerous reasons, including the fact that he still hasn't submitted a team. See you on the other side.
Okay thinking about Palmar's team. I think it was weird that it wasn't sent since Palmar was really pushing it and accepting all responsibility for it. If Palmar was scum then it should have gone through since he was pushing it so hard his teammates should just have voted it through, he only needed one more vote and unless he is scum and put 2 scum buddies on his team then there should be enough votes outside the 3 team members + me for the team to pass.
If he isn't scum and there was scum on the team then it was a golden opportunity for scum to just put a team through and sabotage it and blame everything on Palmar. Palmar himself said all that crazy shit with "never send me on another team if it is sabotaged", golden opportunity for scum if Palmar isn't scum. Sending a team on day2 would also mean that spies wouldn't have to contribute by proposing teams themselves. It was golden.
This leaves only one option, the team was pushed so hard that the only reason it failed was because it was heavily opposed by spies, the only reason spies would heavily oppose a day2 team would be if there were no spies on it.
So, I'm pretty sure that Palmar, Dirkzor, and Navilus are all town. So how to get 5 townies to vote for a team like that.
Well, I turn to VisceraEyes because reading through this thread again I'm more convinced that he's town than before, also because I'm now pretty convinced that [UoN]Sentinel is spy and I kinda trust Palmar's read on VisceraEyes too.
I propose this team: Dirkzor, Navilus, VisceraEyes
VisceraEyes, fucking yayvote this, it has got you on it.
I'll yayvote it.
I'm pretty sure all of Dirkzor, Navilus and Palmar would yayvote it. That would make it 5 votes on a team that I'm pretty sure contains only townies. Good stuff. We only have to win one of day2, day3 and day5 to win this whole thing and that's going to be a breeze.
Spies: Blazinghand, [UoN]Sentinel and one of chaos13/kitaman27, it's a bit hard for me to tell on that last pair but put a gun to my head and I'd be going with kitaman27 as last spy (yea!).
It's probably better with Dirkzor, Navilus and me and then VisceraEyes can be on the team day2 and Palmar on day3 if it fails day2. I should probably have left VisceraEyes out so I had something to bargain with but I kinda want to send a team at some point.
Like, I'll yayvote any team with 3 of Dirkzor/Navilus/Palmar/VisceraEyes/prplhz on it, nayvote any other team. I really hope we can come to an agreement within this circle. I know Dirkzor doesn't like me for some silly reason ("but you painted it GREEN") so he's probably going to nay a team with me on it or something which is fine, don't really need me on the team.
People who say I'm stupid for supporting a team without myself on it are fucking crazy. You get different information from proposing a team with you on it and a team without you on it.
You're on it and it fails: 1/2 is scum, 2/6 is scum You're on it and it succeeds: 0/2 is scum, 3/6 is scum You're not on it and it fails: 1/3 is scum, 2/5 is scum You're not on it and it succeeds: 0/3 is scum, 3/5 is scum
Actually it's a ton better if you're not on it and it succeeds. Fuck yea. Can get into arguments about likelyhood and preference and stuff like that but that's just crazy. CRAZY I tell you.
ideally for me I'd go with me/dirk/nav, but I am going to agree with prplhz, let's roll the dice on this one. I will accept any team consisting of 3/5 of the players prplhz mentioned.
Well it looks pretty clear that nobody is going to yay one of my teams, so I'll step back from my insistence that I'm part of the team :/
I was the deciding vote on the previous team, voting nay because my strongest scum read sent was a part of it. I'm interested if it will pass through now that I've removed what I believe to be the scummiest element. Even though blazing has been anti-kita, I don't see him with a scum agenda similar to how palmar is calling me scum without calling me scum. I've replaced what I believe to be the strongest scum element with the strongest town element in dirk.
On February 24 2012 08:41 VisceraEyes wrote: First of all, no. I don't think you're auto scum. You're one of my scum-reads, but if you're willing to explain to me why your team is better with you on it than without (as I feel right now, because you're one of my scumreads) then I can get down on a team with you on it. I'm just not going to yay-vote you because you asked nicely considering the misgivings I've had with the way you've approached the game. I'd hope you'd do the same with me if you're town and if I were a scum-read to you.
I can understand the unwillingness to give blind trust. I suppose I'm just having trouble giving up the fact that I know I can improve our chances of winning, in exchange for making everyone else, who may or may not be town, to feel better.
On February 24 2012 08:41 VisceraEyes wrote: Now, you misrepresented my reasoning for voting. My Nay-Vote of Palmar's team was because it included him - who I've been leaning scum on. And my vote yay for the team we just shot down was based on the fact that I was okay with the two other members of the team - but because I was a part of the team I'll defer to the 'you can't prove that' mentality and say that you only misrepresented one of my votes, the first one.
Ok, obviously there could be multiple reasons for naying a team, I'm just frustrated that everyone is jumping on me for wanting to be part of the team, yet most people's voting patterns indicate the same thing, except they haven't stated it directly.
On February 24 2012 08:41 VisceraEyes wrote: Secondly, you're mistaken about at least my suspicion of you. It has nothing to do with 'whether you read about scum communication in the OP or not'. It's based solely around how you're approaching finding this, the D1 team. Yes, we all want to be on the team - regardless of our alignment. You, however, are holding your vote hostage. The price is inclusion on the team.
I don't negotiate in hostage situations. I'm the first guy to fire through the window, against protocol and orders. But, I'm willing to compromise (because that's the only way we move forward in this situation.)
Broheim. Tell me why you're holding your vote hostage. We all want to win, but we can't win without selecting a team. You're adopting a policy that you can't ask the rest of town to adopt in order to win. You're pushing an agenda. Tell me...why in the fuck I should trust you Kita?
Well I guess I can compromise, but only because so many people are so willing to deny my spot on a team for day one. I put up my three strongest town reads, by removing sent from the previous team. I guess the only way I can prove to everyone is if I send a team with a successful first mission, but if it passes, nobody better be policy naying me anymore.
On February 24 2012 08:41 VisceraEyes wrote: What are your thoughts on prplhz?
The biggest thing that worries me about prpl is his relationship with palmar. Going through his filter there isn't a single point where he considers palmar could be scum. I'm having trouble believing that a town prpl would be so trusting, based on what little palmar has given us. Additionally, he has been the most passive player in the game.
Right now I'm thinking:
Scum: palmar sentinel prpl
Town: Kita dirk VE blazing chaos nav
On February 24 2012 08:41 VisceraEyes wrote: And finally, if I don't like the answers to these questions, and decided for some reason that I'd nay-vote you the rest of the game regardless of information, would that be okay with you?
I feel that I shouldn't have to be the only one that is required to prove his towniness. Although I've put you on my team and have a general town read, it doesn't mean I'm completely sold on your alignment. If you're going to policy nay vote me for the rest of the game, you better make me believe you have a justified reason.
On February 25 2012 01:12 prplhz wrote: @kitaman27
Am I a spy?
I'm the most on the fence on you and nav (and to a lesser extend chaos), but your blind trust in palmar makes me leaning yes. You haven't shown an aggressive attitude that I'd expect to see.
Am I a spy?
On February 25 2012 01:08 Dirkzor wrote: I voted Nay.
I think Kita, BH and chaos are scum. So...
So lets get this straight. I nay'd the Sent, BH, VE team making it 4/5 rather than 5/4 so I could substitute out a town sent in favor of a town dirk?
On February 22 2012 00:15 Dirkzor wrote: Kita: I think I believe that you just didn't know. Which is a big town tell. Did you read the first resistance game?
On February 23 2012 01:33 Dirkzor wrote: I honestly believe that Kita is just dumb town. But there are no way to know and I would not send him on a mission.
On February 23 2012 02:16 Dirkzor wrote: Team: Me, Kita and Prp ?
Wait, dirk this is the first time you've actually called me scum. I haven't done anything drastically different since you considered me for your team yesterday. You haven't ever called me scum until I've submitted this team. Why the change in opinion?
On February 25 2012 01:08 Dirkzor wrote: I voted Nay.
I think Kita, BH and chaos are scum. So...
So lets get this straight. I nay'd the Sent, BH, VE team making it 4/5 rather than 5/4 so I could substitute out a town sent in favor of a town dirk?
You're not thinking logically.
You're actually right... hmm..
(I'm at work and have to go eat soon so I didn't bother going back to see...)
I might be thinking you are scum because so many keeps saying you are scum... very bad =(
I feel like I'm going insane here... We need a team sent soon so we can move this discussion forward because right now scum hold all the info and can WIFOM all they want... I might change my vote just because I want a team going...
You used that "prplhz isn't aggressive" in Reponsibility Mafia! too and it was equally bad then.
I don't have blind trust in Palmar. It's his attitude combined with how I'm pretty sure that the team Palmar proposed would have been sent if he was spy.
You nayed Palmar's team because you weren't on it, it would look very bad if you yayed the [UoN]Sentinel team when you weren't on that. Also, you've been on [UoN]Sentinel's back all game and that would also look bad.
If you think that Dirkzor, VisceraEyes, and Navilus are all town then you should have sent that team. I don't think you wanted to send that team since there are no spies on it.
I already said that I think that you're a spy, but it's not really important right now. The circle of five is what's important right now.
If Palmar, [UoN]Sentinel and I were scum, I have a hard time seeing why I didn't yayvote [UoN]Sentinel's team. I'm also proposing a team of Dirkzor, Navilus, and VisceraEyes right now. A team without spies. And Palmar is supporting me.
I started wondering why 2 very different teams have not been voted through by scum. *warning* this might contain a large potion of WIFOM * warning*
On February 22 2012 23:02 Forumite wrote: Team Palmar: Palmar, Dirkzor, Navillus
Navillus - Failed to vote! Palmar - Yay [UoN]Sentinel - Nay kitaman27 - Nay Dirkzor - Yay chaos13 - Nay VisceraEyes - Nay Blazinghand - Nay prplhz - Yay
3 Yays, 6 Nays Team Palmar is Rejected!
On February 24 2012 00:32 Forumite wrote: Team [UoN]Sentinel: [UoN]Sentinel, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Nay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Yay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team [UoN]Sentinel is Rejected!
These are the two teams and the votes people have made.
Reasons for a team to be nay voted by scum: 1) All town players 2) More then 1 scum player 3) To confuse town
As kita pointed out only 2 votes have been made by people not already on the team. Could that mean that they are scum? Maybe. Prplhz voted yay on the first team. Consist fairly well with the team(s) he is proposing now. Chaos13 voted yay on the 2nd team.
Why didn't any of these teams get scum backup and get approved? We have been trough 6/9 players. Are the last 3 scum players and we made 2 teams of only townies?. That would mean Prplhz, Chaos13 and Kita are scum. But prp voted yay on the first team and Chaos on the other. So I find this unlikely.
Did both teams consist of 2+ scum. No. Can't happen.
Did one team have 2 scum, and the other 1 scum. Unlikely but perhaps. If this was the case scum would just have voted the team with 1 spy and sabotaged.
Did one team consist of only town and the other 2+ scum. I find this the best explenation so far. Not saying it is so, but bear with me. Since I know my own allignment I can positivly say that the first team can max have 2 spies. If palmar was spy he would not include another spy in his team. If he was town he could have picked Navillus with a bad read and Navillus was scum with palmar + me town. So the first team can't possible have more then 1 scum. It wasn't approved. I assume the first team had 0 spies. The 2nd team (sent, BH, VE) did also not get approved. Which means that there we 0 spies or 2+ spies. If Sent was spy he would not include another spy. So for this team to be 2+ scum it have to been VE and BH who are the spies.
Maybe this means nothing. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it will trigger thoughts.
Yay-voting. Kitaman, you're a good man. Your responses have convinced me that you're town. However, now I have to go back and figure out who I think is scum, so that's cool I guess.
Kay, I actually think this team has a pretty good chance to succeed. If it fails, my initial reaction will be to think it's Dirk, but I'll be looking at BH and Dirkzor with the same critical eye.
How the hell does calling Palmar, [UoN]Sentinel and me spies make sense?
I'm proposing a team of Dirkzor, Navilus and you. That's no spies according to kitaman27. That would mean that Palmar, [UoN]Sentinel and I would all have to be on all of the day2, day3, and day5 teams, and with 3 confirmed day1 townies we would probably be so incriminated by being on a failing team that we wouldn't be able to ever get on another team. This means that we have to have me on one team, Palmar on another, and [UoN]Sentinel on yet another. There's so much that could go wrong, no spy team would ever do this. This is pretty logical. kitaman27 isn't being logical, how can you say that?
In the meantime, prplhz posted more shit math. If a team succeeds, that gives nothing about the number of scumplayers on the team because scum can elect not to sabotage.
In addition, if there ARE scum on the team, 2/2 can be scum as pointed out just above me.
TL;DR - don't trust someone just because they were on a successful team.
On February 25 2012 01:01 Adam4167 wrote: The current team is Team kitaman27: Dirkzor, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
The current deadline to vote on Team kitaman27 is 24 hours from now, 16:00 GMT (+00:00), or 26 February 01:00 KST.
I don't like the fact that it's a team suggested by kitaman27-- but this is a team with 3 town players. He's either bluffing or actually town. I'm amending my vote on kitaman27 to "yay"
I'm going to have to rethink my read for who the third scum player is if he isn't kita. I find this team acceptable, however.
It might seem crazy for you Dirkzor since you're on the team but you're next host and if you can find 3 townies inside Dirkzor/Navillus/VisceraEyes/Palmar/prplhz then you should be good to go with next team. Unless you really want Blazinghand on your team over one of Navillus/Palmar/prplhz then you have no reason to vote yes.
Navillus, I don't know what you're up to but you should vote no or afk out today. But you better be here tomorrow or I am going to rage.
A Professional Plea to people in this game: if you think this team has 3 town players on it, vote Yay. I think this team has 3 town players on it. I don't think prplhz is arguing in good faith. I'm fairly sure he and Palm are scumbuddies. My chief concern with this team isn't its composition but the fact that it was suggested by Kita. I'm calling his bluff though.
On February 25 2012 04:17 Blazinghand wrote: I'm calling his bluff though.
I'm calling your bluff that you're calling my bluff.
On February 25 2012 01:38 Dirkzor wrote: The problem is that we need to get 5 townies to agree on 3 reads. Which at this point looks very hard.
Looks pretty attainable if you vote yes.
On February 25 2012 01:54 prplhz wrote: I don't have blind trust in Palmar. It's his attitude combined with how I'm pretty sure that the team Palmar proposed would have been sent if he was spy.
So what exactly is this attitude that you like? Because I'm having trouble finding one that seems protown to me.
On February 25 2012 01:54 prplhz wrote: If Palmar, [UoN]Sentinel and I were scum, I have a hard time seeing why I didn't yayvote [UoN]Sentinel's team.
I'm willing to believe that only one of you and sentinel is scum, can't be sure. One of the reasons I'm having trouble viewing you as town is that you've been giving a list of players and saying "these are scum" or "these are town". Its hard to so how you can be so confident with limited knowledge.
On February 25 2012 02:10 chaos13 wrote: Nayvoting due to Dirkzor being included.
Could you provide better case summarizing your suspicions on dirkzor? He he responds adequately are you willing to consider him? Would you have nay voted any team with myself included as well? I don't believe you commented on that.
Dirkzor isn't going to vote yes because I just showed him how it makes no sense for him to vote yes unless Blazinghand is a bigger town read of his than VisceraEyes, Palmar or me.
@VisceraEyes When this team fails, Dirkzor, you, and one of Navillus/Palmar/prplhz is going to be suggested. Which of these three would you pick to go with you? Are you going to vote yes on that team?
I'm nay-voting this team. I reread BH's filter in Resistance 1. This isn't even the same guy -.-
wtf, I didn't even look because I thought I remembered, but after going back and looking he actually looked like have a shit that game about figuring stuff out. He didn't cast suspicion on people for trying to understand the setup. He didn't just auto-align with someone he thought was town.
On February 25 2012 07:05 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually, I changed my mind.
I'm nay-voting this team. I reread BH's filter in Resistance 1. This isn't even the same guy -.-
wtf, I didn't even look because I thought I remembered, but after going back and looking he actually looked like have a shit that game about figuring stuff out. He didn't cast suspicion on people for trying to understand the setup. He didn't just auto-align with someone he thought was town.
Yeah, sorry BH. Not this time.
##Vote: Nay
I'm not sure I'd characterize my Resistance I town play as "good" but that's your perogative. I still think a VE/Sent/Dirk team is passable so we can roll with that if Dirk will suggest it.
On December 26 2011 09:30 Radfield wrote: /confirm
I'm not sure that makes sense Truth. If I pick something with all town, I want to see who votes for it and who does not. As such I would much rather people see my team before approving me.
I WILL be assigning myself on my team. I will also not be assigning either Zona or Palmar on my Day 1 team, since given that I am town, the likelyhood of one of them being mafia increases drastically(unless forumite randomized the set-up). Obviously this is all meanless to you guys, since you have no idea my alignment. However the logic should be sound.
I think I will take one player from VE, Jackal, Greymist and one player from Blazinghand, Truth and Toad. It's pretty arbitrary, but obviously there are no other metrics for me to go by right now.
Thoughts?
I do agree with the fact that Truth should not be voting so early. Let's put it this way: If we really go by a true-rnd process saying the chances of getting 3/3 town are slim probably is a nice way to say it.
Also I'm claiming your groups are not arbitrary at all. At least group1 (Zona, Palmar, yourself) and group2 (Jackal, Greymist and VE) don't look arbitrary at all :p I'm pretty sure both truth and I have less games than those 6 people out of groups 1 and 2 which could make the 3rd group a newby-group but than again I never played with Blazinghand so maybe I'm wrong with that one.
But yeah, I'd like to hear a lot more from those 6 people you mentioned plus yourself and what they think about each other. Yes sending yourself makes sense but after all I'd like to be able to judge you d2 as well.
Assuming truly random picks, there's a (2/3) chance of picking a townsperson each time, meaning that there's a (2/3)^3 chance of getting 3 townies, or 8/27-- pretty bad.
I think it's reasonable to select yourself as part of your group. If you are town, it would be very unreasonable for you not to select yourself at this phase in the game when there have been neither successful nor unsuccessful missions yet. To yourself, you are a confirmed townie. Then you face somewhat decent odds of picking out two townspeople to come with you.
I think it's unreasonable to assume that there is 1 mafia among Zona/Palmar/Radfield. there could easily be 2 or 0. But EVEN ASSUMMING the layout is "1 mafia in Zona/Palm/Rad, 1 mafia in Jack/Grey/VE, 1 mafia in Blaze/Truth/Toad", the correct answer isn't to pick one guy from each group...
Because you, Radfield, know your own alignment. If you really think that there is 1 mafia in Zona/Palm/Rad, you should actually take one of Zona/Palm along with you! This is because you personally have the information that you're town, and can therefore say (assuming, again, that there's some distribution like that) that one of Zona/Palm is town. Therefore, you pick one of Zona/Palm, and you only have one pick left, and so you just need one solid-read town pick to create the following situation:
Team: Radfield (yourself, who is confirmed town to you), plus Zona (for example), plus someone who gives off a solid town read like, say, Blazinghand. If the mission fails, you can reasonably say "well I think this was Zona" (though others will not be able to do so). The beauty of this though is, assuming you're right about the "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad", If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
Contrast taking a team like Radfield/VE/Toad, and a mission success-- Assuming your "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad" idea is correct, this doesn't give us any info on who that was. Same with a mission failure.
So, if you really think one of Zona/Rad/Palm is mafia, and you are very sure of this due to the high relative skills of these specific players you, being Rad and knowing your own alignment, are in a unique position to form a team that grants you information-- so your current metric for forming a team is flawed.
I will not grant you a pre-emptive vote based on your ideas for acting on your reasoned assumptions.
THAT BEING SAID,
I do NOT think it it safe to say that there is one and only one mafia among zona/rad/palm. It's certainly possible, but it's also possible that Forumite was like "well I think this is a newbie game so I'm gonna stack the deck in favor of town and make a bunch of crap players mafia like that Blazinghand punk", or maybe he was like "lol man these guys gonna get rolled so hard, Zona, Rad and Palm all gonna be my mafia lololololol" So, I also do not grant you a pre-emptive vote based on the assumptions underlying your ideas. I will wait to see the team itself.
That being said, I would not be unwilling to vote for your team once you have constructed it, should I determine it to be solid. I'm only pointing out that anyone who's thinking of pre-emptively yessing you (Truthbringer...) may want to put a wee bit more thought into it.
Just saying.
Posting for posterity. This was BH's first post in Resistance 1. -.- I'm an idiot.
On December 26 2011 09:30 Radfield wrote: /confirm
I'm not sure that makes sense Truth. If I pick something with all town, I want to see who votes for it and who does not. As such I would much rather people see my team before approving me.
I WILL be assigning myself on my team. I will also not be assigning either Zona or Palmar on my Day 1 team, since given that I am town, the likelyhood of one of them being mafia increases drastically(unless forumite randomized the set-up). Obviously this is all meanless to you guys, since you have no idea my alignment. However the logic should be sound.
I think I will take one player from VE, Jackal, Greymist and one player from Blazinghand, Truth and Toad. It's pretty arbitrary, but obviously there are no other metrics for me to go by right now.
Thoughts?
I do agree with the fact that Truth should not be voting so early. Let's put it this way: If we really go by a true-rnd process saying the chances of getting 3/3 town are slim probably is a nice way to say it.
Also I'm claiming your groups are not arbitrary at all. At least group1 (Zona, Palmar, yourself) and group2 (Jackal, Greymist and VE) don't look arbitrary at all :p I'm pretty sure both truth and I have less games than those 6 people out of groups 1 and 2 which could make the 3rd group a newby-group but than again I never played with Blazinghand so maybe I'm wrong with that one.
But yeah, I'd like to hear a lot more from those 6 people you mentioned plus yourself and what they think about each other. Yes sending yourself makes sense but after all I'd like to be able to judge you d2 as well.
Assuming truly random picks, there's a (2/3) chance of picking a townsperson each time, meaning that there's a (2/3)^3 chance of getting 3 townies, or 8/27-- pretty bad.
I think it's reasonable to select yourself as part of your group. If you are town, it would be very unreasonable for you not to select yourself at this phase in the game when there have been neither successful nor unsuccessful missions yet. To yourself, you are a confirmed townie. Then you face somewhat decent odds of picking out two townspeople to come with you.
I think it's unreasonable to assume that there is 1 mafia among Zona/Palmar/Radfield. there could easily be 2 or 0. But EVEN ASSUMMING the layout is "1 mafia in Zona/Palm/Rad, 1 mafia in Jack/Grey/VE, 1 mafia in Blaze/Truth/Toad", the correct answer isn't to pick one guy from each group...
Because you, Radfield, know your own alignment. If you really think that there is 1 mafia in Zona/Palm/Rad, you should actually take one of Zona/Palm along with you! This is because you personally have the information that you're town, and can therefore say (assuming, again, that there's some distribution like that) that one of Zona/Palm is town. Therefore, you pick one of Zona/Palm, and you only have one pick left, and so you just need one solid-read town pick to create the following situation:
Team: Radfield (yourself, who is confirmed town to you), plus Zona (for example), plus someone who gives off a solid town read like, say, Blazinghand. If the mission fails, you can reasonably say "well I think this was Zona" (though others will not be able to do so). The beauty of this though is, assuming you're right about the "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad", If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
Contrast taking a team like Radfield/VE/Toad, and a mission success-- Assuming your "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad" idea is correct, this doesn't give us any info on who that was. Same with a mission failure.
So, if you really think one of Zona/Rad/Palm is mafia, and you are very sure of this due to the high relative skills of these specific players you, being Rad and knowing your own alignment, are in a unique position to form a team that grants you information-- so your current metric for forming a team is flawed.
I will not grant you a pre-emptive vote based on your ideas for acting on your reasoned assumptions.
THAT BEING SAID,
I do NOT think it it safe to say that there is one and only one mafia among zona/rad/palm. It's certainly possible, but it's also possible that Forumite was like "well I think this is a newbie game so I'm gonna stack the deck in favor of town and make a bunch of crap players mafia like that Blazinghand punk", or maybe he was like "lol man these guys gonna get rolled so hard, Zona, Rad and Palm all gonna be my mafia lololololol" So, I also do not grant you a pre-emptive vote based on the assumptions underlying your ideas. I will wait to see the team itself.
That being said, I would not be unwilling to vote for your team once you have constructed it, should I determine it to be solid. I'm only pointing out that anyone who's thinking of pre-emptively yessing you (Truthbringer...) may want to put a wee bit more thought into it.
Just saying.
Posting for posterity. This was BH's first post in Resistance 1. -.- I'm an idiot.
On February 25 2012 07:10 VisceraEyes wrote: That singular post contained more effort and thought than your entire filter this game.
Was that unclear?
It was, you didn't state anything to that effect in your first posts, or your statement was so muddled I couldn't make it out.
In this game, unlike in the previous game, I've done good analysis, clearly delineated my reads, and shot down anyone making bad setup based assumptions. If I was more verbose in explaining my own policy in whether or not I'm pre-voting someone, and what conditions it takes to change that pre-vote, I was certainly not less consistent than I have been this game.
On February 25 2012 07:05 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually, I changed my mind.
I'm nay-voting this team. I reread BH's filter in Resistance 1. This isn't even the same guy -.-
wtf, I didn't even look because I thought I remembered, but after going back and looking he actually looked like have a shit that game about figuring stuff out. He didn't cast suspicion on people for trying to understand the setup. He didn't just auto-align with someone he thought was town.
Yeah, sorry BH. Not this time.
##Vote: Nay
I'm not sure I'd characterize my Resistance I town play as "good" but that's your perogative. I still think a VE/Sent/Dirk team is passable so we can roll with that if Dirk will suggest it.
On February 25 2012 07:05 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually, I changed my mind.
I'm nay-voting this team. I reread BH's filter in Resistance 1. This isn't even the same guy -.-
wtf, I didn't even look because I thought I remembered, but after going back and looking he actually looked like have a shit that game about figuring stuff out. He didn't cast suspicion on people for trying to understand the setup. He didn't just auto-align with someone he thought was town.
Yeah, sorry BH. Not this time.
##Vote: Nay
I'm not sure I'd characterize my Resistance I town play as "good" but that's your perogative. I still think a VE/Sent/Dirk team is passable so we can roll with that if Dirk will suggest it.
There's no response I can make against a statement with that level of certitude, since that is in fact a true statement. If you think I've been off with my reads or pushing scum teams, or have anything more convincing, please, send it my way and I'll do what I can to convince you.
On February 25 2012 07:20 Blazinghand wrote: There's no response I can make against a statement with that level of certitude, since that is in fact a true statement. If you think I've been off with my reads or pushing scum teams, or have anything more convincing, please, send it my way and I'll do what I can to convince you.
On February 25 2012 07:20 Blazinghand wrote: There's no response I can make against a statement with that level of certitude, since that is in fact a true statement. If you think I've been off with my reads or pushing scum teams, or have anything more convincing, please, send it my way and I'll do what I can to convince you.
The problem with 'pushing a scum team' is that any team you push that includes you is a scum team. You've suggested one that does not, which works in your favor, but it contains myself and my two weakest town reads -______-
Perhaps your perceived lack of effort this game is because of relative certainty of your reads this game vs last game, where the last Resistance you were less experienced and more prone to paranoia.
Kitaman, you are allowed to edit out the one post you made in this thread that was ment for another game. For reference, the relevant post is saved below, in case anyone wonder later on.
On February 25 2012 01:38 kitaman27 wrote: I've played plenty of games with you too RoL and I also agree that inactivity and promises of future contribution are pretty common from you as scum. Why not try to contribute, rather than argue what your scum meta is?
risk, after this post where you provide an extremely weak reason for your lynch target after providing no substance the entire first day,
On February 23 2012 06:46 risk.nuke wrote: Yeah I don't want to lynch redFF, just got home. So I threw my vote on BC because I like syllo.
You proceed to not post the entire night. Now that the day is almost half way over, the only thing you're going to give us is a jpeg and a complaint about a lynch that you were completely absent for? No thoughts on today's lynch? Not looking good.
On February 24 2012 13:02 prplhz wrote: You are kind kitaman27. Probably even too kind, I made plenty of bad reads/decisions in Responsibility Mafia! and I ended up claiming scum in XLVII after being figured out by wherebugsgo, syllogism, Palmar, possibly sandroba? and probably a bunch of other people I don't really remember.
I pushed BloodyC0bbler around the time I said that so it's not true when you say that I didn't provide an alternative. I just wanted to guys to know early on that I was most likely going to switch my vote to redFF if the alternative was a no-lynch so it wouldn't cause any unnecessary panic in case I would end up doing it.
Not getting lynched is first priority for me when the townie who was making the most sense until then suddenly suggests me for lynch, especially when I was painfully aware of how bad I looked. I also thought people would be more willing to change away from redFF than they ended up being.
I was hoping I'd get ignored (yea, you're probably going to jump on that word) until I had some more confidence in my reads. I did chime in to support syllogism who I found pretty town, who has good day1 reads and probably is one of the better players in this game, stacked as it is.
On February 24 2012 14:54 prplhz wrote: Because I'm bad. I remember you pointed this exact same thing out in Responsibility Mafia! too. While the meta is available to everybody, not everybody has it readily available to them in their memory. You don't seriously expect everybody to go read everybody else's old games when they join a game? Only a few people do that. My point is that it's a pretty valid excuse "BloodyC0bbler looks scum, and I didn't have the meta that would allow me to see that he often just looks scum as town". I'm surprised not any more scum switched to him.
While you're right that the BloodyC0bbler train picked up more steam, I don't think syllogism is scum, I think DoctorHelvetica is actually putting a ton of effort into this game, I'm not very scum, VisceraEyes looks pretty town to me. That leaves risk.nuke and Blazinghand to get the votes to 6 which BloodyC0bbler had at his wagon's highest point, also making these two scum. I've already said they both look bad and I'd be up for lynching either of them today.
Why are you downplayer your abilities prplhz? Seems scummy to me. Combined with "I was hoping I'd get ignored (yea, you're probably going to jump on that word) until I had some more confidence in my reads" (yes i'm jumping it) it sound like you just want to lurk and it was a pain for you to get called out on it.
So a great plan was put forth right before Kita's team. Then he totally ignored it. I will be on board for one of those proposed me/dirk/someone teams.
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Yay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Nay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team kitaman27 is Rejected!
Dirkzor is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in just under 24 hours, at 02:00 GMT (+00:00), or 26 february 11:00 KST. If Dirkzor has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be the Leader.
BH is growing scummy to me by his lack of argumentation and also the fact that he's the only one buddying me, and not being afraid to show it.
If BH is scum then he's trying to bring me down. If rest of town sees me as neutral or red, and scum player sees me as green, it increases my apparent scumminess.
And that's not a good position to be in.
I'm half-drunk but I think BH is scum.
Dirk/VE/Me sounds like a good team... swap me out for Navillus if you don't like me. That said, I like Dirk/VE/Sent as well. It's two of my strongest town reads and me.
Man Sent look at it this way: if you think VE and Dirk are town, and you know you're town, what's wrong with me calling for a VE/Dirk/Sent team? Assuming you, VE, and Dirk are on board we just need one more person to sign on and we can pass it-- or do you not think VE and Dirk are town?
Dirkzor: He is the best looking dude in the game! =) Seriously, I know I'm town and many think I am. Would be foolish not to include myself.
Prplhz: Have been making a ton of sense lately and his filter looks good. His original idea with "Pick 3 of these 5 dudes" sceam town because he can't go back on that statement even if I/we got lucky and picked 3 townies. I know that the list could contain 1/2/3 scum and thus making it a great idea for scum, but maybe we'll get more then 1 scum on the team and they have to figure out if they want to sabotage or not. I also find it more likely that people vote yes to him then palmar.
Navillus: Have not a single scum thing this game. He have been inactive and failed on several occassion but his posts ring true and I like the way he have voted so far.
Reasons to not go with the Dirk/nav/VE team or Dirk/Nav/Palmar:
VE's vote changing looks scummy to me and he have done it twice now. The best way to have something to fall back on are if you have voted both nay and yay. Then you can always say "Gosh darn it. I thought he looked scummy.. should have trusted my gut instinct" or what not.
I left out palmar because I don't think the team would have been voted to go with him on it. I still think he is town.
What 5 people did you expect would yay that team? You could have spent your time figuring out a team that would be accepted instead of suggesting something that would get instanayed.
[UoN]Sentinel, Blazinghand, kitaman27, chaos13, VisceraEyes to nay this. I'm not even going to bother yaying.
Why should I send VE if I think he is scummy? Also the team is not bad if it meets some resistance. Just mean that I've hit a town team.
I was hoping I could convince atleast one person besides Palmar (who said he would yay a team like this). Maybe sent because he seems to actually think about this game a bit.
And prplhz you should yay this. For several reasons.
1) you said you would 2) We can follow your voting history 3) what If you vote was the one we needed to get the team going.
I don't understand why you are not happy with my team selection? I fulfilled your team suggestion.
(I actually forgot to yay this team myself =/ Will do so now)
In this case you're Chief and Navi is The Arbiter. You've just killed Palmar, the Prophet of Truth, but you've traded one villain for another, and that is Prplhz, the Gravemind.
Basically what I'm saying is your team replaces one scum with another scum, that's the only distinguishing thing between it and the Palmar team. That's why you can't hop on that gunboat thing that's flying away.
Team No. 1 I would of course be most comfortable with, because I am more sure of myself being town than I am of Viscera being town, but I'm also aware that many of you think I'm scum. I would rather substitute myself and have a team that goes through than waste another day.
So I need your input here - how many of you would nayvote Team No.1? Would you yayvote Team No. 2 in it's place?
Navillus - Yay Palmar - Yay [UoN]Sentinel - Nay kitaman27 - Nay Dirkzor - Yay chaos13 - Nay VisceraEyes - Failed to vote! Blazinghand - Nay prplhz - Yay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team Dirkzor is Rejected!
chaos13 is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in 24 hours at 08:00 GMT (+00:00), or 27 February 17:00 KST. If chaos13 has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be VisceraEyes.
Alright, we finally have enough votes. Here's why we're gonna win this Resistance despite losing the last one: we spent plenty of time voting and getting people to commit to stuff day 1.
Now that we have enough data, I think I can positively figure out the scumteam. I have this covered you guys.
Alright guys, welcome to this episode of Blazinghand's Votecount Analysis!
Let's take a look at how things have gone so far:
Basically, we've got two factions at an impasse.
One one hand we've got Sent, VE, and myself who have voted together as a bloc. We've tried topass a team of Sent/VE/BH, offering Dirk as a substitude for Sent once. On the other we've got Prpl, Dirk, Nav, and Palm, who have voted together as a bloc (except for when Navillus missed the Palmar vote). They've pushed the Palm/Dirk/Nav team.
Kita supported the VE/BH team once when it included Dirk in place of Sent. Chaos liked it when it included Sent in place of Dirk. Otherwise these two players have only voted Nay.
This reflects the same information, with each players yay votes and nay votes so far broken down. For example, over the course of this game Sent has been willing to yayvote teams with BH, Dirk, and VE (and of course himself).
Looking at the setup, I think it's clear what's going on here. We need 5 votes to get a team to go forwards, right? Assuming the scum all go against the town, we're talking a 5/6 consensus among townies..
Now if we look at our existing "factions" (though even within the factions there is doubt amongst the members of each other's alignments:
BH, Sent, VE
Palm, Nav, Prpl, Dirk
Kita
Chaos
It's actually fairly unlikely that all three scum lined up into one faction and formed a voting bloc. Barring some colossal stupidity from town (we've been good about nayvoting teams that aren't perfect) a 3-member voting bloc like this will eventually get overridden. Here's what I think is going on, and is also the reason we've been having trouble putting together a good team:
1) Palmar originally picked his team (Palm/Dirk/Nav) to try to set up Nav as a "fall guy" until I called him out on it. It was going to be a one-saboteur group *assuming I'm correct about Dirk and Nav being town, which is what I'm beginning to think given my analysis so far*.
2) Prplhz has been backing up Palmar to try to get a scumteam over the line. His vote is instrumental and has almost gotten the scumteam to get a sabotage through twice now. Having both scum players oppose Palmar would require him to get the help of 4 of the 6 town players, rather than 3 of the 6, making things much harder for him.
3) The third scum IS NOT in Palmar's voting block. This is the real crux of my argument. One of the scum players is playing a "long game" and trying to set up for being picked for a later team after the initial sabotages. He's voting against Palmar and setting himself up to earn town cred when a Palmar-backed team fails.
So where is this third scum? Well, he could be Kita or Chaos, who think Dirk and Sent are scum, respectively. Kita (now) strikes me as unlikely, though, due to the fact that Kita has been willing to listen to reason and suggest what is imo a good team. He could be Chaos, but we'll know if that's the case in a moment when Chaos suggests his team.
But where would the third scum really be? He'd be in my faction, if he's smart. He's trying to create a "win win" d1 scenario, where both of the major groups being pushed have one scum on it. It would explain why town is having such a hard time getting this through-- there are a limited number of town players on both sides of the issue, and the scum aren't gonna flip their flops. I'm positing that Sentinel is the third scum player. His level of activity and analysis has been acceptable at times, but I'm not sure he's really taken a hard look at the situation and offered good analysis. I think in part I was blinded by his buddying of me, and didn't take a close enough look. I think he was bluffing on the Dirk/BH/VE team, due to the anti-kita sentiment that infested the game at that moment, and he voted knowing that. A BH team wasn't going to pass with the Palmar group voting against me, and so he could safely vote Yay. And look at how he words it!
On February 25 2012 03:26 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I'm going to yay and see what happens.
In the meantime, prplhz posted more shit math. If a team succeeds, that gives nothing about the number of scumplayers on the team because scum can elect not to sabotage.
In addition, if there ARE scum on the team, 2/2 can be scum as pointed out just above me.
TL;DR - don't trust someone just because they were on a successful team.
What is he saying here? Sentinel is voting yay, then setting himself up to make cases on the team members if it succeeds. This is a tell for his bluff. It fits with his posting patterns, and it's a shit reason for a vote. That and look at him bus prplhz. Look at him bus!
So as you can see, Sentinel is worried that somehow his bluff will go awry and the team will pass, and there will be no sabotages. He soft attacks people from a hypothetical successful team that he's only worried about because a town team has finally been suggested.
Chaos13, think about what's been said here. Take a look at the idea of a Palm Prpl Sent team, and you'll see it makes sense.
I think a reasonable team for today would be something like your option two: Nav, VE, Blazinghand. Given what I've seen, and that incredibly scummy bluff yay vote from Sentinel, I would like to see you propose this team. I would yay vote it.
And so should you, town. Dirk, Nav, think about what I've written here. It makes sense. It adds up. It's what scum would do, and it explains the voting patterns.
VE remains my strongest town read. Chaos really should rethink his scumread on Dirk, but I'm fine with Nav in his place.
TL;DR-- I think Palm/Prpl/Sent is the scumteam, and am pushing of a Nav/VE/BH team. My reasoning? there is no TL;DR for that. This is an analysis post. You need to read it and evaluate my thoughts, then read filters, count votes, and see if you agree.
We´re going to continue with the game, even though [UoN]Sentinel got a 2-day ban. The voting stage of the next team will be extended to about 48 hours, giving him time to return and vote. As normal, we won´t wait until the deadline if everyone votes early.
Chaos13 is still the leader, and he has about 18 hours to suggest his team.
BH: I really like your long post just a few before this one. I agree that it is a good sign that we have so much information so far where in Res I you sent the first team proposed.
I'm just not sure about your conclusion. I think if you reverse it you can find 3 people who also looks scum. If you look from "my" voting block's perspective.
I'm just not sure about VE. So a team of BH, Nav and Me I would support.
On February 20 2012 05:25 Dirkzor wrote: And Blazinghand, if you can't see a scenario where suggesting a team without yourself on it (not day 1) you have clearly not thought the setup through!
Help me out then. When would you, a town player, ever suggest a team that doesn't include yourself?
i am going to re-read the thread tomorrow, assuming I am somehow, someway wrong about Blazinghand. And try to see if his play and assumptions can possibly fit bad townie play.
cba tonight. Until then I'd rather not send this team through because of BH
Palmar, I'm having doubts about BH. Would you look at Resistance 1 and see if you think we're playing with a BH of the same (town) alignment? I have my doubts, but it's based solely on the amount he posted in the last game. Because I already know you don't think so, if you say he's not I'll need you to tell me why - if you don't want to do it then don't bother.
prplhz, what is your read of Navillus? Do you think he cares at all about helping town?
chaos13....bro. I gotta ask. Why the team without you on it? Are you really that confident in your town reads? Or are you just trying to get a team pushed through? Do you feel like pushing a team through is more important than increasing the chances of an all-town team?
I liked chaos13's analysis and I think that Navilus is just a townie who is quite busy these days. He's been pretty transparent and he's voted right all times. I absolutely don't see him pushing any agenda in this game that isn't townie.
You need to nay this and then find a team with you, and two of Dirkzor/Navilus/Palmar/prplhz that you trust the most and then we're going to vote that through and win this game. [UoN]Sentinel, Blazinghand, kitaman27 all look bad ([UoN]Sentinel hasn't made one single townie post in this game and Blazinghand is grasping terrible arguments out of the thin air seemingly to fit some weird agenda) and chaos13 I'm a bit flaky about so ultimately I trust you more.
Why do you say "seemingly to fit some weird agenda" regarding BH? Like, I'm starting to have doubts myself, but I'd like you to tell me why you don't trust him specifically.
VE, it's perhaps reasonable to say "I don't feel like BH is posting the same amount of words that he was posting in Resistance I" about how I'm playing right now. In fact, that's actually true. I think that I've been enormously more helpful in this game than in Resistance I, though, if we take a look at not "how much has BH written" but rather "how much helpful discussion has BH generated and how much info has he created for town?" I think I have been very helpful, in part because of the much better town atmosphere this game.
Remember, we're still on Day 1 here. This is a bigger, more full, more evidence-rich Day 1 than we had in the other game. What distinguishes this from Resistance 1 is that town actually knows what's up now-- we're not just gonna yayvote in the first team that comes rolling down the block. Remember how "town" the Rad/Palm/BH team seemed on D1 in Res 1? Imagine if instead we had gone through a bunch of team suggestions and voting rounds like we did now! currently, it seems like we're far into the game, but really, this is D1. No teams have passed, but even just a cursory glance at my analysis at the top of the page should show that we're way beyond where we were in D1 in Resistance 1, or even D2 or D3. I think I've done more on this Day 1 than I did last Day 1, in which I mostly talked about setup and irrelevant potshots at Rad. We've created a voting history. A lot of it still doesn't make sense since we haven't passed a team yet, but we're creating a record. Imagine what things will look like on later days when we have even more information, plus passed succeeded/failed teams. I think overall people are getting too discouraged about this "no teams have passed yet" thing when really this is an indication of good, skeptical town play. The fact that we're doing this means that we're forcing scum to put out more and more information, or to bluff more and more. I couldn't have made an analysis like this a couple voting rounds ago, which is why I didn't. And now that there's a body of evidence, I'm able to do so.
Obviously this is just one man's point of view, but all the info I've used is available to you, too. See if I missed something! The Team Thread has all the votecounts and team suggestions, and it's super easy to read. most people in this game have relatively short filters. Voting histories are transparent. Take a look at people setting themselves up for busses, bluffs, and who they're willing to send (as I have done with Sent).
Don't get stir-crazy because we're 5 leaders in and haven't passed a team yet, guys-- this is how it SHOULD be. We may not be able to do the same stuff to find scum that we're able to in regular mafia, but by doing this we put scum under an enormous amount of pressure.
Don't be afraid to Nay-vote a team if you think it's not a good team. Right now, even if things seem slow, we're winning.
On February 27 2012 14:51 prplhz wrote: I liked chaos13's analysis and I think that Navilus is just a townie who is quite busy these days. He's been pretty transparent and he's voted right all times. I absolutely don't see him pushing any agenda in this game that isn't townie.
You need to nay this and then find a team with you, and two of Dirkzor/Navilus/Palmar/prplhz that you trust the most and then we're going to vote that through and win this game. [UoN]Sentinel, Blazinghand, kitaman27 all look bad ([UoN]Sentinel hasn't made one single townie post in this game and Blazinghand is grasping terrible arguments out of the thin air seemingly to fit some weird agenda) and chaos13 I'm a bit flaky about so ultimately I trust you more.
I have to say, this is exactly the conclusion I reached.
On February 27 2012 14:40 VisceraEyes wrote: Palmar, I'm having doubts about BH. Would you look at Resistance 1 and see if you think we're playing with a BH of the same (town) alignment? I have my doubts, but it's based solely on the amount he posted in the last game. Because I already know you don't think so, if you say he's not I'll need you to tell me why - if you don't want to do it then don't bother.
the amount is almost completely irrelevant. What struck me initially as scummy is that he was very inconsistent in his accusations against me. The interaction that basically sealed the deal for me, until my pending complete re-reading, was this one.
Palmar: Let's go with Dirk/nav/Palmar BH: That's a bad team, town palmar wouldn't pick that team Palmar: it's illogical to think that if I'm scum I picked a teammate on the team, as that's strictly bad scumplay, so you think I'm scum? If that's the case, I'll take your strongest townread (VE) and swap him out for whoever on the team you think is scum. That should be good for you? BH: NO!
To me, it never seemed to me he was actively scumhunting in this team I proposed, he was simply opposing it going in any way possible. Since then I've even offered to swap out more people from the team, but we've hit the same wall.
So yeah, it's not based on amount, but the intentions.
He also said "Town Palmar wouldn't take all the reponsibility for a team." while saying "He is scum because he is setting Navilus up to take all responsibility for this team.". I don't agree with either of those statements, but what's important is how self contradictory they are and how little he cared about that. He seemed panicky even though it didn't look like he had a clear scum read on any of the team members, instead just attacking with everything he could make up and then settling on actually believing in something later.
I'd talk some more about kitaman27 but I don't really want to talk spy strategy. He's been a lot more refined in his play than Blazinghand though, if that wasn't obvious.
His new analysis is quite bad, voting patterns are cool but he is ignoring large parts of the game. Palmar pointed out that he wanted to send VisceraEyes, Dirkzor, Navilus but Blazinghand didn't want to do that back then, and even though he actually proposed that team himself right here, it still doesn't seem like he wants to go through with it. I also proposed it later and Palmar agreed to it then too. The analysis is also totally devoid of what's actually the backbone of all analysis, looking at what people are writing. He only comments on the stuff anybody's said one time and that's a [UoN]Sentinel quote. That guy does not have a single townie post so it's not really a great find.
Notice how the more townie people are steadily nudging themselves towards figuring stuff out while Blazinghand is all piss and vinegar without actually caring about listening to anything other people have to say. Even though he's been all "come at me, bro", he's just straight up ignoring people now.
I was on the fence, but honestly I think we will be able to get through with 3 of the people that Dirk is mentioning and I don't know why we would settle for less, there really is no harm to town. I would particularly like me/Dirk/someone, 1. VE 2. Palmar 3. Prplhz. I just don't have a good town read on BH and I'd like Dirk before VE. Also we have VE next which I'm just much more comfortable with. Thus ##Vote chaos13: Nay
Mainly his attitude. Anyone that disagrees with him is automatically scum in his eyes. He is discrediting anyone that goes against his plan by insulting their intelligence.
Take a look at his response to blazing large post:
On February 26 2012 18:56 Palmar wrote: Also, I sincerely hope you're not town, because that would make you one of the worst players I've ever seen on TL.
Now this is in response to what I see as possibly the most constructive post of the game, going into the vote analysis. He simply discredits it and calls him bad. That's not a town response. That's a scum response attempting to maintain control over the thread. In fact, you had a very similar response to the analysis.
On February 26 2012 18:08 Blazinghand wrote: Now if we look at our existing "factions" (though even within the factions there is doubt amongst the members of each other's alignments:
BH, Sent, VE
Palm, Nav, Prpl, Dirk
Kita
Chaos
I'm in a league of my own.
On February 28 2012 01:52 VisceraEyes wrote: Don't give up thinking.
Okay, I'm going to nay-vote. Palmar if you're scum this game, I'm going to be simultaneously impressed and depressed.
##Vote: Nay
With the voting history we have here, even if the mission fails today we've got a good shot at a scum-free N2 I think.
This is really interesting from VE. I'm surprised nobody else has brought this up.
You yay vote a team composed of Dirkzor, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes, yet nay vote a team of VisceraEyes, Navillus, Blazinghand.
So is it safe to assume you think nav is scum? He is the only difference afterall. Yet you don't mention nav in your post. What gives?
In fact, I'd like to hear who you are leaning towards as scum. Is it just prpl right now? What would you be submitting as a team if this fails?
On February 27 2012 22:23 prplhz wrote: I'd talk some more about kitaman27 but I don't really want to talk spy strategy.
lol what does this even mean? You think I'm scum, but you won't talk about it because discussing my actions this game would somehow further the town agenda?
I'll make my decision about this team after hearing back from VE.
On a side note, I've been only able to get a couple hours of sleep the last few days due to school work so I take decided to take nap yesterday and I started having a lucid dream about this game. blubbdavid had apparently joined the game, except he wasn't part of the playerlist and he was the fourth scum member whose goal was to reject any team the was submitted.
In case you were wondering, yes I am starting to go crazy.
On February 28 2012 15:09 kitaman27 wrote: On a side note, I've been only able to get a couple hours of sleep the last few days due to school work so I take decided to take nap yesterday and I started having a lucid dream about this game. blubbdavid had apparently joined the game, except he wasn't part of the playerlist and he was the fourth scum member whose goal was to reject any team the was submitted.
In case you were wondering, yes I am starting to go crazy.
I don't think you did anything overly scummy, I don't like your reads and your general behavior fits better than anybody else with a [UoN]Sentinel/Blazinghand spy team combo. This is kinda what I'd expect from you.
I don't see how Palmar calling anybody stupid sounds like he's mafia. Probably not a player in this game besides you that he didn't call stupid (he called you stupid this game too but you're scum so that doesn't count). You say he's just "discrediting" the analysis and calling Blazinghand "stupid" but that's not true. He tried to engage in a discussion with Blazinghand about the analysis but Blazinghand is pretty much just ignoring him.
Mainly his attitude. Anyone that disagrees with him is automatically scum in his eyes. He is discrediting anyone that goes against his plan by insulting their intelligence.
Take a look at his response to blazing large post:
On February 26 2012 18:56 Palmar wrote: Also, I sincerely hope you're not town, because that would make you one of the worst players I've ever seen on TL.
Now this is in response to what I see as possibly the most constructive post of the game, going into the vote analysis. He simply discredits it and calls him bad. That's not a town response. That's a scum response attempting to maintain control over the thread. In fact, you had a very similar response to the analysis.
Ok nice. kitaman27 just confirmed himself scum. I don't think I can allow him to hide behind "well maybe he's that dumb" anymore.
It's not scummy to think I'm scum or disagree with me. However, the reasons for why kita does it are beyond bad. Like it's the cornerstone of my play in mafia to call everyone who doesn't agree with me scum or dumb. It's what I do all the fucking time, and kitaman knows it, and he knows what he's saying makes me scum, bears in reality no indication to my alignment. The correct reason to think I'm scum is if he genuinely disagreed with my reads and made logical points to back up that position, but obviously it's hard being logical when you're scum.
You're not this dumb kita, you don't think that argument for me being scum is legit. It's unthinkable you actually believe this bullshit, so by extension you must be scum.
I will now not agree to any team including kitaman27
I re-read the entire thing about Blazinghand's reactions, especially to my first suggestion, last night. I've never seen him play scum so I cannot be certain that his scum play is actually decent, because at least he hasn't sunk to lurk-till-death levels of scum play.
Problem is that I have seen him play town multiple times, and I just can't get myself to believe he'd be so brazen about his refusal towards my proposal. I had hoped that he would show me at least the respect of considering my team, or at least requesting explanations and weighing my arguments, but he immediately nayvoted it and said "thanks for proposing a team, let's move on", which makes no sense. He only started arguing as to why my team shouldn't go once it became clear that I wasn't going to let it go easily.
From someone who played with me in his first game ever, where I just pointed out the scumteam on the first day, it makes very little sense that he would not even consider my opinions.
I think he must be scum because of this, so I will not agree to any team including Blazinghand.
Now the awesome thing about being banned is that you can read this thread with no obligation to post, and that really relaxes a person enough to see new things. Like BH's bullshit analyses. That last one, bolding phrases to make it look important but really it's ten kilos of grade-A fluff.
Next up,
On February 26 2012 18:08 Blazinghand wrote: I'm positing that Sentinel is the third scum player. His level of activity and analysis has been acceptable at times, but I'm not sure he's really taken a hard look at the situation and offered good analysis. I think in part I was blinded by his buddying of me,
You're more guilty of me than this bro.
and didn't take a close enough look. I think he was bluffing on the Dirk/BH/VE team, due to the anti-kita sentiment that infested the game at that moment, and he voted knowing that. A BH team wasn't going to pass with the Palmar group voting against me, and so he could safely vote Yay. And look at how he words it!
The Sentinel team almost passed, 4-5. Given that Dirk is more towny than me at this stage in the game, I'd venture a guess to say 5-4 wouldn't have been too bad of a prediction. So I voted yay on the team in the hopes that we could get this game moving.
On February 25 2012 03:26 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I'm going to yay and see what happens.
In the meantime, prplhz posted more shit math. If a team succeeds, that gives nothing about the number of scumplayers on the team because scum can elect not to sabotage.
In addition, if there ARE scum on the team, 2/2 can be scum as pointed out just above me.
TL;DR - don't trust someone just because they were on a successful team.
What is he saying here? Sentinel is voting yay, then setting himself up to make cases on the team members if it succeeds. This is a tell for his bluff. It fits with his posting patterns, and it's a shit reason for a vote. That and look at him bus prplhz. Look at him bus!
This argument is the epitome of bullshit.
You took me pointing out hypothetical scumteams to poke holes in prplhz's argument as actually saying the team succeeds? That's like me saying "If my neighbor gets shot, I'll call the cops!" and reasoning that I shot my neighbor. Your argument has nothing to do with my post, and I've been against prplhz for longer.
So as you can see, Sentinel is worried that somehow his bluff will go awry and the team will pass, and there will be no sabotages. He soft attacks people from a hypothetical successful team that he's only worried about because a town team has finally been suggested.
Chaos13, think about what's been said here. Take a look at the idea of a Palm Prpl Sent team, and you'll see it makes sense.
No.
I think a reasonable team for today would be something like your option two: Nav, VE, Blazinghand. Given what I've seen, and that incredibly scummy bluff yay vote from Sentinel, I would like to see you propose this team. I would yay vote it.
You and you alone?
And so should you, town. Dirk, Nav, think about what I've written here. It makes sense. It adds up. It's what scum would do, and it explains the voting patterns.
VE remains my strongest town read. Chaos really should rethink his scumread on Dirk, but I'm fine with Nav in his place.
On February 26 2012 18:56 Palmar wrote: Also, I sincerely hope you're not town, because that would make you one of the worst players I've ever seen on TL.
Now this is in response to what I see as possibly the most constructive post of the game, going into the vote analysis. He simply discredits it and calls him bad. That's not a town response. That's a scum response attempting to maintain control over the thread. In fact, you had a very similar response to the analysis.
Dear Lord... I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Palmar.
On February 28 2012 19:15 Palmar wrote: I will now not agree to any team including kitaman27
Haha because this wasn't the case before right? Now you're just looking for some kind of excuse , rather than calling me dumb the entire game. You've clearly decided from day one who you would be willing to vote for and who you wouldn't.
As for your comments, sure you've called someone like VE stupid a bunch of times, but you've never attacked me directly in the 15 or so games we've played together. I know I've been playing with the towns interests in mind so the only logical conclusion is that you're scum.
On February 29 2012 00:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: My scum team would be Kita/BH/Prplhz
So both me and prpl nay voted your team, preventing our scumbuddy from being included. It's really hard to believe a town player would come to these kind of conclusions totally ignoring the voting record to go with whatever team they feel like.
On February 28 2012 19:15 Palmar wrote: I will now not agree to any team including kitaman27
Haha because this wasn't the case before right? Now you're just looking for some kind of excuse , rather than calling me dumb the entire game. You've clearly decided from day one who you would be willing to vote for and who you wouldn't.
As for your comments, sure you've called someone like VE stupid a bunch of times, but you've never attacked me directly in the 15 or so games we've played together. I know I've been playing with the towns interests in mind so the only logical conclusion is that you're scum.
derp.
And you're wrong. Initially, if you recall, I thought about sending Blazinghand and Dirkzor with myself on the day one team. I actually thought BH was town.
But hey, don't let being wrong stop you, just soldier on and say whatever you like.
@Sentinel, would you be willing to back a team of any combination of the following 5 players, VE/Palmar/prplhz/Dirkzor/Navillus.
@sentinel, how on earth do you think prplhz is scum after his latest contributions? I have a stronger townread on him than probably anyone in this game.
On February 27 2012 22:23 prplhz wrote: He also said "Town Palmar wouldn't take all the reponsibility for a team." while saying "He is scum because he is setting Navilus up to take all responsibility for this team.". I don't agree with either of those statements, but what's important is how self contradictory they are and how little he cared about that. He seemed panicky even though it didn't look like he had a clear scum read on any of the team members, instead just attacking with everything he could make up and then settling on actually believing in something later.
Man are you intentionally having bad reading comprehension or what? Let me lay it out for you again.
Originally: Palmar is picking a team. He picks himself (reasonably), dirkzor (also reasonably), then Navillus. At this stage in the game Navillus has like 2 posts, and either dodged making his own team or was otherwise busy / not paying attention.
My criticism with this team was "hey dude, why pick Navillus? It looks like you're setting him up to be the fall guy for when the team fails"
Palmar said, (paraphrased), "If this team fails, I'll take responsibility-- remove me from the team and figure out other dudes for D2"
My response is "given that you personally know that you are town, this would be unreasonable for you to do. If the team fails, I expect you'd fight to get dirk/navi or BOTH removed and keep yourself on the team for D2. If you're town, and the team fails, and both dirk and navi are on the D2 team, you're throwing away a mission for free. This strikes me as not solid town play, and I feel like Palmar is a player who understands this setup and would play solidly as town.
@Palmar: If you don't like the fact that I nayvoted first and stated specific reasons in the like later, let me refer you to my voting history on Radfield's D1 team on Resistance I. I am not afraid to shoot first and ask questions later in this setup, if "shoot first" means "nayvote a team".
Also giving how hard Palm and Prpl are buddying each other I may need to rethink my scum reads. It doesn't really make sense for them to be sitting on each other's laps so much this game. Or maybe wifom wifom who knows
Yea, and it looks like you're fishing for arguments. Palmar also responded very adequately for why you shouldn't include him on any other team. Palmar traditionally has good reads, if he can't even pick 2 townies then it's probably because he's scum and he shouldn't be trusted on future teams. Man, that makes perfect sense now doesn't it? What doesn't make sense is, why the hell would scum give town this argument?
Palmar has a habit of pushing his reads very strongly when he's town. In XLVII he wanted lynch to be between him and Ace, inevitably leading town to lynch the other if one flipped town. They were both town in that game. Palmar has a habit of pushing his reads very strongly when he's town.
Also, you have no idea if he would go through with it at all, I doubt it. But if you had not been all prejudiced you should have seen that he was arguing very logically and in a way scum probably wouldn't do.
On February 29 2012 00:52 prplhz wrote: @[UoN]Sentinel
Why exactly am I scum?
You have less beef in your posts than I'm used to seeing. Usually you could have a wall of text picking apart one or a group of players, this is absent in this thread.
If you think that Blazinghand is scum then why did you yayvote both of the teams he was on?
This was before he started posting fluff and generally not-townie posts.
What team would you send right now?
Any combination of Dirk/VE/Nav/you/Me atm.
If you don't think that Dirkzor/Navilus/Palmar are scum then why did you nayvote that team?
At the time I thought you were suspicious because I know you're usually dickish but your dickishness seemed... off, and also because I thought when you sabotaged team, Nav as a suspicious character would be labeled as spy.
In other words if you were a spy and the team failed, Nav would take the fall.
Are you prepared to yay a Dirkzor/Navilus/Palmar team?
At the time I thought you were suspicious because I know you're usually dickish but your dickishness seemed... off, and also because I thought when you sabotaged team, Nav as a suspicious character would be labeled as spy.
In other words if you were a spy and the team failed, Nav would take the fall.
and
Any combination of Dirk/VE/Nav/you/Me atm.
My mistake, everywhere it says "you" I meant "Palmar". For some reason I flipped the two.
I'm having doubts about Blazinghand and Navillus. The more he posts, the less concerned I am about Blazinghand, but the less he posts the more concerned I grow with Navillus. I've had a terrible feeling about Nav since D1 and his presence on the team doesn't help matters.
The vote ended heavily against the proposed team, I think everyone who voted voted against. The next one in line may propose his team. I'll be back later with the full votelist.
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Failed to vote! [UoN]Sentinel - Nay kitaman27 - Failed to vote! Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Failed to vote! VisceraEyes - Nay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
1 Yays, 8 Nays Team chaos13 is Rejected!
VisceraEyes is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in 19 hours at 19:00 GMT (+00:00), or 1 March 04:00 KST. If VisceraEyes has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be Blazinghand.
On February 29 2012 08:32 Blazinghand wrote: I accidentally made the preceding post in the team thread, like a moron ;_; what should I do
On February 29 2012 08:28 Blazinghand wrote: Although it's possible one of Palm/prplhz is innocent, I don't think it's the case for both of them. I don't like this team.
##vote nay
I can confirm that it is identical to this post. Edit it into an amusing emote.
On February 29 2012 08:28 Blazinghand wrote: Although it's possible one of Palm/prplhz is innocent, I don't think it's the case for both of them. I don't like this team.
##vote nay
I can confirm that it is identical to this post. Edit it into an amusing emote
Shit, forgot I had to vote and was rather absent from the forums of TL for the past few days. Broke up with my girlfriend on Sunday and mafia was possibly the last thing on my mind. Sorry about that.
On February 29 2012 10:21 chaos13 wrote: Shit, forgot I had to vote and was rather absent from the forums of TL for the past few days. Broke up with my girlfriend on Sunday and mafia was possibly the last thing on my mind. Sorry about that.
On February 29 2012 08:21 VisceraEyes wrote: Team VisceraEyes: VisceraEyes, Palmar, prplhz
Team SNMMII GOGOGO
On February 25 2012 17:38 VisceraEyes wrote: Prplhz =
##Vote: Nay
On February 26 2012 13:08 VisceraEyes wrote: prplhz is looking bad. Palmar saying he's making sense is bad. VE getting drunk 2 nights in a row is bad. New team is GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD.
lol you only have like two posts in between these statements and your team submission. Are you pushing this team because you think it is all town or because you simply want a team to pass? I can't imagine you actually think this is the best team to put forth. You mentioned how you thought I was town earlier. Why aren't I part of your team?
Even if one of prpl or palmar is town, its incredibly difficult to imagine a scenario where they both are.
Okay. Since no one is posting I've had some time to reread a bit. Following three post are taken from Chaos13's filter. The post are in the same order and right after eactother.
On February 24 2012 06:28 Palmar wrote: I have a plan. Everyone must provide 3 players that they'll vote into a team, but they cannot include themselves.
Nav/Dirk/VE for me
Navillus/VE/prplhz
Nice of you to include your scumbuddy Dirk in there.
On February 25 2012 02:10 chaos13 wrote: Nayvoting due to Dirkzor being included.
On February 26 2012 02:50 chaos13 wrote: Nayvoting. Guess why? Yeah, Dirkzor is on it again.
Team No. 1 I would of course be most comfortable with, because I am more sure of myself being town than I am of Viscera being town, but I'm also aware that many of you think I'm scum. I would rather substitute myself and have a team that goes through than waste another day.
So I need your input here - how many of you would nayvote Team No.1? Would you yayvote Team No. 2 in it's place?
Note the timestamps. It was over a 2 day period where Chaos13 only made those 3 posts. Why did his read change from VE/Prplhz/Navillus to 2 teams with BH? Why did the teams he suggested not look like this: Himself/VE/Nav or Himself/Nav/Prplhz or even Nav/VE/Prplhz?
it's not complicated.... from Dirkzor's perspective he must be town (or he must make us think he's town) so it's a reasonable assumption that if we get this one team through, it should not be hard to add more members.
While I don't like people answering for me palmar is semi correct.
The reason I only wrote Palmar/Prplhz is beacuse Kita (and BH?) are calling them scumbuddies. So by their logic this team would have 2 scum on it. Not a good start for scum.
But if they are town we should be able to easily ride this to victory.
Palmar and prplhz appear to actually be putting effort into this game, among others. I went back and reread their filters and decided that ultimately, I had a better read on them than I have on others. I think prplhz latching onto Palmar as town so "blindly" freaked me out, but Palmar has been his standard asshole-townie self this game and I can see prplhz recognizing that.
I understand that team came out of nowhere and seems to contradict what I've been saying recently, but I honestly think this team has a great chance to succeed. If anyone thinks I'm off on my reads, let me know how/why.
It fits that he voted yay on BH's team. (I can't find why in his filter... Don't think he ever said why?)
Chaos13 also have a huge black hole in his filter... A hole that should have been filled with discussion regarding BH or interaction with him. He have none. He had a small interaction with BH very early in the game which I don't read to much into. I bring this up because it would be logical to distance yourself from your scumbuddies. If this actually means anything I'm not sure. Chaos also does not mention Sentinel at all...
What doesn't fit is that he voted Nay to Kita's team (Dirk/BH/VE) if he was scum with BH. The only reason I can think of is that he thought it would look to scummy if he voted yes on a team with me on it after he have been calling me scum all game - and this makes sense. It could also be because there was more then 1 scum on the team, indicating that BH and VE are scum. This could also make sense.
All in all chaos just fits perfectly together with BH (from Chaos filter's veiwpoint.)
Add the fact that he have been tunnelling me for the entire game.. The person most find townie (or atleast did at some point). It just adds to the idea that he is scum trying to minimize the town playerpool.
If I get more time I'll try to look at it from BH filter's viewpoint - but if anyone else is up for the task please go ahead. It won't be to night at least. I just skimmed it and BH have very little regarding Chaos.
That whole "case" is mostly revolving around the assumption that BH is scum. If BH is town most of this fall apart. While some of the stuff chaos (His change of team and not giving reason for his vote on BH's team) have done is scummy this analysis was done to try and find a link between scum.
On March 01 2012 01:32 Dirkzor wrote: The reason I only wrote Palmar/Prplhz is beacuse Kita (and BH?) are calling them scumbuddies. So by their logic this team would have 2 scum on it. Not a good start for scum.
Palmar can and HAS coordinated single sabotages from 2-scum teams. I don't know why anyone would consider anything but a 0-scum D1 team to be ideal.
I think that's what we've got here. Take a look at Palmar's contributions to Resistance 1 Blaze. Unless he's actually started actually giving a shit as scum (I'll believe it when I see it) then he's town this game. prplhz is the one I'm the most worried about on my team, but after reading his filter, I think we're dealing with town prplhz too.
I could be wrong, but I really feel like this is going to work.
On March 01 2012 02:46 VisceraEyes wrote: I think that's what we've got here. Take a look at Palmar's contributions to Resistance 1 Blaze. Unless he's actually started actually giving a shit as scum (I'll believe it when I see it) then he's town this game. prplhz is the one I'm the most worried about on my team, but after reading his filter, I think we're dealing with town prplhz too.
I could be wrong, but I really feel like this is going to work.
Palmar's scum play has come a long way since Resistance 1. Let me point you towards Werewolves II:
In this recent game, Palmar put in a good deal of effort and effectively mirrored his town meta, winning the game for his scumteam. Now, in the other game I've played with him, Purgatory, he was scum and was obviously scum and didn't live long, but I just wanted to point out that anyone assuming that Palmar is incapable of playing a good scum needs to reexamine their assumptions.
On March 01 2012 01:56 Dirkzor wrote: What doesn't fit is that he voted Nay to Kita's team (Dirk/BH/VE) if he was scum with BH. The only reason I can think of is that he thought it would look to scummy if he voted yes on a team with me on it after he have been calling me scum all game - and this makes sense. It could also be because there was more then 1 scum on the team, indicating that BH and VE are scum. This could also make sense.
In the event that Chaos and I were scum together, I don't know why he'd chose to be the vote that tips a 5-4 victory into a 4-5 loss for kita's team. Assuming you and VE are both town and Chaos and I are scum, passing a Dirk BH VE team would have been an excellent D1 team, but Chaos voted Nay. The fact of the matter is a 1-scum D1 team would be optimal. I think your latter explanation makes more sense, if you want to begin with the assumption that I'm scum.
Despite the fact that your latter explanation may make more sense, I think *it* is also total crap. If VE BH Chaos is the scumteam, why on earth would VE and I both yayvote the teams with both of us on it when Sent and Dirk were the thirds, then have VE nayvote it when Nav was the third? Nay you could say "well Chaos13's team was trying to fail, so VE voted against it" but that didn't stop me.
Here's what I think is the case: for the first two VE/BH/X teams, VE thought I was town. Now, VE is less sure (and also suspicious of Nav), so he voted against Chaos13's team, and suggested one without me.
This strikes me as pretty normal town play, not a long-winded distancing strategy. The reason I don't like this team isn't VE, but rather, Palm and Prpl. I think VE could have easily picked some towner players like Nav/Dirk to go on this team and for whatever reason did not. This is not the best D1 team we could send, so I'm voting against it, and so should you.
If I get the chance to suggest a team today, I'll be suggesting BH/VE/Dirk... I may swap out VE for Nav if people really want, but these two seem the towniest to me.
On March 01 2012 01:56 Dirkzor wrote: What doesn't fit is that he voted Nay to Kita's team (Dirk/BH/VE) if he was scum with BH. The only reason I can think of is that he thought it would look to scummy if he voted yes on a team with me on it after he have been calling me scum all game - and this makes sense. It could also be because there was more then 1 scum on the team, indicating that BH and VE are scum. This could also make sense.
In the event that Chaos and I were scum together, I don't know why he'd chose to be the vote that tips a 5-4 victory into a 4-5 loss for kita's team. Assuming you and VE are both town and Chaos and I are scum, passing a Dirk BH VE team would have been an excellent D1 team, but Chaos voted Nay. The fact of the matter is a 1-scum D1 team would be optimal. I think your latter explanation makes more sense, if you want to begin with the assumption that I'm scum.
Despite the fact that your latter explanation may make more sense, I think *it* is also total crap. If VE BH Chaos is the scumteam, why on earth would VE and I both yayvote the teams with both of us on it when Sent and Dirk were the thirds, then have VE nayvote it when Nav was the third? Nay you could say "well Chaos13's team was trying to fail, so VE voted against it" but that didn't stop me.
Here's what I think is the case: for the first two VE/BH/X teams, VE thought I was town. Now, VE is less sure (and also suspicious of Nav), so he voted against Chaos13's team, and suggested one without me.
This strikes me as pretty normal town play, not a long-winded distancing strategy. The reason I don't like this team isn't VE, but rather, Palm and Prpl. I think VE could have easily picked some towner players like Nav/Dirk to go on this team and for whatever reason did not. This is not the best D1 team we could send, so I'm voting against it, and so should you.
First of... I don't think VE is scum. He is not my best townread but I don't think he is scum. I was just pondering over why Chaos would vote nay to that team if the 2 of you were scum together. Now i think my first reason fits best. It now also fits that VE is not scum due to him voting yay on the teams with you. But then again there can be so many reasons why he didn't nay it... (He thought it would look scummy to nayvote a team with himself on it or whatever)
Navillus - Failed to vote! Palmar - Yay [UoN]Sentinel - Failed to vote! kitaman27 - Nay Dirkzor - Yay chaos13 - Failed to vote! VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Nay prplhz - Yay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team VisceraEyes is Rejected!
Blazinghand is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in 24 hours at 00:00 GMT (+00:00), or 2 March 09:00 KST. If the leader has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be leader.
I mean, Kitaman tried...if you think you've made any headway into convincing town that you're town feel free to try again. My guess is no though - I'd yay-vote it though. *shrug*
First sorry I didn't get here in time to vote though honestly I was leaning no on that team, second I dislike that the actual team suggestions are not putting me in, for 1. the obvious reason that I know that I'm town so me being on the team makes it more informative and more likely to succeed from my perspective and 2. I think most people had a pretty town read on me and that was indicated but the actual teams just don't have me on them and that makes me suspicious of the people proposing the teams. And BH I will nay that team.
So of the two VE/BH teams, we've had one with Sent and one with Dirk. The one with Dirk was liked by Sent, Kita, VE, and BH. The one with Sent was liked by Sent, Chaos, VE, BH.
IF we suggest VE/BH/Dirk, you me and possibly Kita will yayvote, but we'll still need two yayvotes from chaos/dirk/palmar/prpl/nav/sent.
I just need to lay down some mad convincing and get TWO more votes (it's not one because Sent now thinks the scumteam is Kita/BH/Prpl).
An alternative team could be VE/BH/Chaos if people are more comfortable with that, but I think the chief contention people have with the team is that I'm on it.
Ah well. Honestly, I'd be fine with VE/Dirk/Palmar or something along those lines. Nav, probably, Chaos, possibly. If it gets to the point where it's close and we're not going anywhere, I'll yayvote.
OK Sent as you know I am not a palmar fan. Would you be able to get behind, say, VE/Dirk/Nav? This is less preferable than VE/BH/Dirk but vastly superior to anything I think Palmar would suggest, and honestly I'm willing to suggest a team without myself if it's composed of the three townest players rather than whatever we'll end up settling for as the draw deadline comes up.
On March 01 2012 06:44 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm trying to simultaneously push a team through and choose members I think are likely to cause the mission to succeed.
If it fails, we have information. If it succeeds, we just add one for N2. One of Dirk/Kita/Nav imo. Nav only because of his Venn Diagram. Good shit.
It seems VE likes both Dirk and Nav.
We'll be able to get a yayvote from Dirk, since he's yayvoted Nav teams before and has explicitly states he thinks VE is town.
With my yayvote, we're up to 4, and we just need ONE vote from Palm Kita Prpl Chaos Sent.
I'm gonna go ahead with VE/Dirk/Nav and see what happens.
And before yall are like "oh blazinghand why aren't you on your own team are you scum or what" well it turns out it's actually gonna go really shitty if no team gets passed and so I went with something that we can actually push through. If it turns out this team fails, we have tons of info and are really set up for a good D2 team imo. I consider a Draw to be a failure to achieve win condition and will work against this. You should all feel the same way.
If you nayvote this team, please explicitly state why you are naying the team, who you think is scum or whatever, etc. It you fail to vote I will personally e-crap on your e-porch and light it on fire. No "failed to vote"s please.
On March 02 2012 01:53 chaos13 wrote: This shouldn't surprise anyone.
Nay.
Sending a team with Dirkzor is a one-way trip to sabotageland.
I don't know why you still dislike me so much (by dislike i mean you think I'm scum. I hope you don't dislike me for real. That would make my day real crappy). I don't think I've been acting scummy at all this game and can't understand your reasoning for thinking I am scum.
I would just like to say, and I know this probably will not influence you at all, that I'm not a spy. I can't sabotage. If you are town I would really like you to re read my filter and point out where I went wrong (beside your first case). It actually annoys me a bit since you are the only one who _really_ think I'm scum this game. In other games I can often relate to the reasoning people use to call me scum (when I'm town) but in this game I just don't understand.
Can you please explain to me why you think that at least one, and likely both of Palmar and I are scum?
I often sheep a better player than myself as long as they don't do weird stuff. I don't really think Palmar has done anything I wouldn't expect of him yet. He looks town to me.
From the Palmar team I can say one thing. The team had one town player who wasn't on the team who voted yes (me). If there's only one spy player on the team, then I have no idea why they didn't just vote it through, they could always make up some bullshit excuse for it. If there was two spies on the team then either both Palmar and myself have bad reads on Dirkzor and Navilus (just about all players in this game do). I'm not going to consider the case where there are three scum on the team because that's just fucking crazy.
A spy Palmar could conceivably have included another spy on the team. The thing is that he would have to communicate to the other spy who would sabotage because 2 spies sabotaging on day1 is almost a certain loss for spies. The game essentially becomes transformed from 3/9 to 1/6. The last spy would have to personally sabotage 2 missions out of 3. This is just too crazy and I don't think that a spy Palmar would have done this. I thought about how a spy Palmar might be willing to take this risk since 2 spies on day1 with only 1 sabotage is a decent scenario for scum. It would essentially give them 50% chance of sabotaging the next mission. My problem with this is that Palmar isn't dumb and just because he traditionally didn't care as much as scum as he did as town doesn't mean that he just turns his brain off entirely. Himself and a spy buddy is a huge risk if he is scum.
It's also really weird how opposed the team was in form of Blazinghand going all crazy, [UoN]Sentinel very nonchalantly voting nay on a pretty shabby reasonable, and VisceraEyes 2 hour vote switch (the only vote switch in this game so far I think). Maybe he was trying to be in the position I would have been in had the team had been successful, but then he realized how many were against it and how it could actually be nayed. Of the yay votes on Palmar's team he's the one who is most likely to be scum (I know he nayed it eventually Blazinghand, you don't have to point that out).
Back to my original question; Can you please explain to me why you think that at least one, and likely both of Palmar and I are scum?
Navilus is a guy who votes yes on teams he's on and no on teams he isn't on. His contributions to this game consist of an apology and a Venn diagram.
Can you please explain to me why you think that at least one, and likely both of Palmar and I are scum?
I often sheep a better player than myself as long as they don't do weird stuff. I don't really think Palmar has done anything I wouldn't expect of him yet. He looks town to me.
From the Palmar team I can say one thing. The team had one town player who wasn't on the team who voted yes (me). If there's only one spy player on the team, then I have no idea why they didn't just vote it through, they could always make up some bullshit excuse for it. If there was two spies on the team then either both Palmar and myself have bad reads on Dirkzor and Navilus (just about all players in this game do). I'm not going to consider the case where there are three scum on the team because that's just fucking crazy.
A spy Palmar could conceivably have included another spy on the team. The thing is that he would have to communicate to the other spy who would sabotage because 2 spies sabotaging on day1 is almost a certain loss for spies. The game essentially becomes transformed from 3/9 to 1/6. The last spy would have to personally sabotage 2 missions out of 3. This is just too crazy and I don't think that a spy Palmar would have done this. I thought about how a spy Palmar might be willing to take this risk since 2 spies on day1 with only 1 sabotage is a decent scenario for scum. It would essentially give them 50% chance of sabotaging the next mission. My problem with this is that Palmar isn't dumb and just because he traditionally didn't care as much as scum as he did as town doesn't mean that he just turns his brain off entirely. Himself and a spy buddy is a huge risk if he is scum.
It's also really weird how opposed the team was in form of Blazinghand going all crazy, [UoN]Sentinel very nonchalantly voting nay on a pretty shabby reasonable, and VisceraEyes 2 hour vote switch (the only vote switch in this game so far I think). Maybe he was trying to be in the position I would have been in had the team had been successful, but then he realized how many were against it and how it could actually be nayed. Of the yay votes on Palmar's team he's the one who is most likely to be scum (I know he nayed it eventually Blazinghand, you don't have to point that out).
Back to my original question; Can you please explain to me why you think that at least one, and likely both of Palmar and I are scum?
Navilus is a guy who votes yes on teams he's on and no on teams he isn't on. His contributions to this game consist of an apology and a Venn diagram.
I actually just realized that I've been doing that and to be clear I haven't been nay-voting teams because of the absence of me, but because of the presence of at least one person who I didn't want on the team, it just happened that there were no teams proposed with a group that I liked without me which honestly shouldn't be that weird, there are 6 town that means that once you take me out you need to choose 3 people out of 5 remaining townies that are all green which would seem very difficult especially because I don't have town reads on 5 people even if there are 5 other town because I'm not good enough to cut it that close so there are really like 3 maybe 4 other people I'm comfortable with to varying degrees.
Can you please explain to me why you think that at least one, and likely both of Palmar and I are scum?
Partly due to a process of elimination after town hunting. Partly because of the buddying which I'm not seeing the logical reasons for.
If I had to pick one post that cements my belief the most it would be this:
On February 23 2012 02:05 Palmar wrote: I just don't know what to think of your townplay. And for me personally, my reads generally rock early in the game, and start sucking later, which is why I see no reason to drag this on. And your logic is still dumb.
I was arguing about how the more team suggestions we had, the more information we would have which was helping me late game. In response, Palmar calls me dumb and replies with the above statement. There is literally no reason I can think of why my argument wasn't pro-town yet he opposed it anyway. Apparently my logic is dumb, yet he is the one insisting that more information lead to worse reads.
The theme with Palmar has been that he wasn't willing to directly call me out as scum during the period that he needs my vote. When I finally call him out on it, he finally decides that I'm scum. Anyone who opposes Palmar he has attacked in return. This is not a town response.
I'm more uncertain on you prpl. I'm willing to consider that sentinel would be scum rather than you since at least you appear to be putting some effort into the game, but it feels as if you're trying to come up with logic that fits your conclusions, rather than conclusions based upon logic.
On March 02 2012 03:28 prplhz wrote: From the Palmar team I can say one thing. The team had one town player who wasn't on the team who voted yes (me). If there's only one spy player on the team, then I have no idea why they didn't just vote it through, they could always make up some bullshit excuse for it. If there was two spies on the team then either both Palmar and myself have bad reads on Dirkzor and Navilus (just about all players in this game do). I'm not going to consider the case where there are three scum on the team because that's just fucking crazy.
This argument can be applied to nearly every player in the game. I really don't understand what you're saying. The vote was essentially 4v5 since nav would have obviously approved it he wasn't afk.
Why doesn't the argument apply to the [UoN]Sentinel, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes 4v5 team? Why doesn't the argument apply to the Dirkzor, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes 4v5 teams? etc.
I'm confused how you would come to the conclusion that Palmar must be town, yet ignore the same exact evidence for other things.
On March 02 2012 03:28 prplhz wrote: A spy Palmar could conceivably have included another spy on the team. The thing is that he would have to communicate to the other spy who would sabotage because 2 spies sabotaging on day1 is almost a certain loss for spies. The game essentially becomes transformed from 3/9 to 1/6. The last spy would have to personally sabotage 2 missions out of 3.
Lets not discuss this...
On March 02 2012 03:28 prplhz wrote: It's also really weird how opposed the team was in form of Blazinghand going all crazy, [UoN]Sentinel very nonchalantly voting nay on a pretty shabby reasonable, and VisceraEyes 2 hour vote switch (the only vote switch in this game so far I think). Maybe he was trying to be in the position I would have been in had the team had been successful, but then he realized how many were against it and how it could actually be nayed. Of the yay votes on Palmar's team he's the one who is most likely to be scum (I know he nayed it eventually Blazinghand, you don't have to point that out).
Navilus is a guy who votes yes on teams he's on and no on teams he isn't on. His contributions to this game consist of an apology and a Venn diagram.
Blazinghand, Senintel, VE, Nav and myself all can't be scum. So clearly at least 2+ town are opposing it.
Today's team submission I'm on the fence with.
dirk has a really weird response to my questioning the other day. He called me scum after calling me town only a few posts prior. After I brought it up, he responded that he may have decided that I was scum based on everyone else calling me scum, which is really sketchy. VE has been really inconsistent with his reads, but I'm still leaning town. nav hasn't really done anything. I listed him as my weakest town read earlier, but its incredibly difficult for me to differentiate between an apathetic scum and a inactive townie.
I'll vote yay since I'd like to play the game out, rather than settle for a draw. However, if the team sabotages, I'm not going to be bullied out of the teams anymore and will likely go back to insisting that I'm included.
I'm just saying that Dirk being scum is unlikely (but not impossible) if Palmar is scum. He'd want to pick two town players on his D1 team almost certainly, even assuming he can coordinate who's sabotaging (which he definitely could). My interpretation of Palmar's team suggestion was this: Palmar is scum, and he suggested Dirk and Nav who he both knew was town. He suggested Dirk because he wanted to look like he was suggesting a team, and he suggested Nav to be a "fall guy" for when the team failed, making up some bad rationalization of "well scum would care about the game more". I just don't think it would be optimal play for a Palm/Dirk/X scumteam to put both Palm and Dirk on a team together like that with Nav.
Perhaps, was there a reason you suggested nav for your team other than the fact than you think he was Palmar's "fall guy"? Or were you simply looking to go with a team that would pass?
In fact Kita, you've historicaly nayyed every team except for the team you suggested, Dirk/BH/VE. The ONLY difference in this team is that I've been swapped out for Navillus!
Context: Kita suggested Dirk/BH/VE. This team is Dirk/Nav/VE
Let's take a look at your reasoning for being skeptical of this team you've yayvoted:
On March 02 2012 12:11 kitaman27 wrote: dirk has a really weird response to my questioning the other day. He called me scum after calling me town only a few posts prior. After I brought it up, he responded that he may have decided that I was scum based on everyone else calling me scum, which is really sketchy. VE has been really inconsistent with his reads, but I'm still leaning town. nav hasn't really done anything. I listed him as my weakest town read earlier, but its incredibly difficult for me to differentiate between an apathetic scum and a inactive townie.
I'll vote yay since I'd like to play the game out, rather than settle for a draw. However, if the team sabotages, I'm not going to be bullied out of the teams anymore and will likely go back to insisting that I'm included.
So dirk has a weird response... To what? In the last 6 days, he're's you ONLY interaction with Dirk:
On February 25 2012 14:30 prplhz wrote: Who is your scum team kitaman27?
You can call me kita for short, prplhz.
I'm leaning towards Palmar, sent/you, and nav/chaos?
Tough to get all three spot on without a mission submission, but based on the voting patterns, that is what I'm leaning.
Has chaos13 become more town since then with his crap team submission that only I yayvoted?
Who's your scumteam? What's with this weird reticence on that yayvote? Do you think these guys are scum or not? What's so special about Nav, or what's really changed about Dirk and VE since you last suggested a team that was ALMOST the same as this one, the only team you yayvoted? Why so scared?
On March 02 2012 12:29 kitaman27 wrote: Perhaps, was there a reason you suggested nav for your team other than the fact than you think he was Palmar's "fall guy"? Or were you simply looking to go with a team that would pass?
I think it's pretty clear that Nav as a fall guy would not be scum. That being said, Nav has missed several votes (including his own) and has only ever yayvoted one team, and it had prpl on it. He's town, but with crap reads. Palmar is scum. Sent is probably scum. If I couldn't scrounge together a team that would pass, this game would end in a draw because there's nobody who's both smart AND town coming up in the lineup. I'm fucking Henry Clay, I'm gonna compromise the shit out of this deal.
On February 25 2012 14:30 prplhz wrote: Who is your scum team kitaman27?
You can call me kita for short, prplhz.
I'm leaning towards Palmar, sent/you, and nav/chaos?
Tough to get all three spot on without a mission submission, but based on the voting patterns, that is what I'm leaning.
Has chaos13 become more town since then with his crap team submission that only I yayvoted?
Who's your scumteam? What's with this weird reticence on that yayvote? Do you think these guys are scum or not?
The current set of three players isn't my ideal team. If the game had an unlimited amount of time remaining and I was able to select my ideal team of three players, I would probably nay it. I would still prefer a team with myself or probably you, over nav. If prpl were willing to put worth a kita/VE/dirk team, then I would pass on this one, but that seems incredibly unlikely. Like I said before, nav is pretty null to me. My scum team is still probably the same as I mentioned before.
Navillus - Yay Palmar - Yay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Yay Dirkzor - Yay chaos13 - Failed to vote! VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Yay
The plan was simple. Assault the winery supplying the army with their drink, to incite unrest among the soldiers. As the team enters the enters the winery it is deathly quiet. Each footstep echoes down the long hallway. The team marvel at the stocked wine which seems to go on endlessly. As they draw closer to the end of the hallway, one of the team pauses. He turns and asks "Did you hear that?" "I thought I heard.... buffaloes. Nevermind, must have been my imagination" he said as they continued walking. They plant the charges and quickly escape to a safe distance to watch the fireworks.
Mission 1 suffered no sabotage attempts and was successful!
prplhz is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in 23 hours at 04:30 GMT (+00:00), or 3 March 13:30 KST. If the leader has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be Navillus.
So this should be sort of completely absolutely 100% obvious but same team, also I think this puts these 3 people almost completely in the clear as if there was a scum their options are 1. sabatoge now 2. sabatoge day 2 with same team which yields them exactly 0 benefit over sabatoging day 1 and gives us a free day or 3. wait til we get a bigger team day 3 (someone said this is happening, that is true correct?) in which case they've left themselves with 0 room for error which seems just stupid.
Yes though I will say that if Palmar or Prplhz fail I have them sort of grouped in my mind so I would probably in that case jump right to you, and if it looks like it would go through I would be ok sending you through rn because that's really just switching the order, and I don't want to be really obstructivist, especially when at this point someone non-ideal needs to go through since, well, my ideal team just went.
You know given how hard palm and prpl are insider each other's butts I'm wondering if one of them (prpl?) might actually just be town. I guess third scum would be like, kita then.
It should be noted also that there might have been a misunderstanding about the sabotage rules - there was a night-phase in Resistance 1 where the scum team was given the opportunity to submit a sabotage. In this game it looks like scum have to submit their sabotage WITH their vote...so it's possible there's scum on the successful team who forgot to submit their sabotage. And with as many 'Failed to vote' as we've had, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Just putting that out there. I think the original three sent is a good starting point, but don't just write us off as auto-town either. If one of us just stops making sense or starts acting super scummy, don't be afraid to call us out and if necessary, replace us over the course of discussion today. But have a damn good reason, because a successful mission is successful.
As for who I want on the next team, I'm torn between derp and kita. Gonna reread and see what I see.
On March 02 2012 15:42 VisceraEyes wrote: It should be noted also that there might have been a misunderstanding about the sabotage rules - there was a night-phase in Resistance 1 where the scum team was given the opportunity to submit a sabotage. In this game it looks like scum have to submit their sabotage WITH their vote...so it's possible there's scum on the successful team who forgot to submit their sabotage. And with as many 'Failed to vote' as we've had, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Just putting that out there. I think the original three sent is a good starting point, but don't just write us off as auto-town either. If one of us just stops making sense or starts acting super scummy, don't be afraid to call us out and if necessary, replace us over the course of discussion today. But have a damn good reason, because a successful mission is successful.
As for who I want on the next team, I'm torn between derp and kita. Gonna reread and see what I see.
Good shit guys.
Why would you ever write that?!?! I have made the same thought but why write it out now when town have NO use for this what so ever.
To me this could just as easily said:
"Hey scumbuddies, Sorry. I fucked up. I thought there was a nightphase and I would sabotage there. Turns out there isn't and I should have sabotaged earlier."
Next team: Dirk, Nav, Ve and Prplhz
Prplhz is making ton of sense and we can't get into an argument about whether or not palmar is scum.
On March 02 2012 18:55 Palmar wrote: also ve lol, that post is such huge wifom, because I had no idea such a mechanic would exist, and I'm wondering why you would know that
I'm continouisly amazed of how bad people are at reading OP's. I knew it. It's in the Voting OP.
You are casually comparing a day1 team pushed hard by Palmar to a later team pushed by a less experienced and reputable player. It's bad to listen to Palmar just because of his reputation but that doesn't mean that a lot of people aren't very often influenced by how he's quite experienced and how he's right more often than the average player. Just because it was pushed by him and in the way he pushed it, I think it's very weird that it failed. Usually, when Palmar wants to lynch somebody on day1, that guy gets lynched. If that guy suddenly doesn't get lynched and a lot of people support another lynch with a bad reasonable, then that makes you very suspicious of the situation.
If you think he was the only scum on it then I think it's so weird that not even one of the other two spies voted yay with how hard Palmar was pushing it. Imagine [UoN]Sentinel as a spy (that's not very hard), would he nay that team that Palmar pushed it so hard and was going to get sabotaged and then on a shoddy reasonable? I really think that the team is extremely likely to be all town since it was nayed. I yayed it on a weaker reasonable (mostly just some gut reads on all of the players along with chaos13's analysis of Navilus, I didn't as much time for this game in the beginning as I would have liked to have had) but that turned out to be a good decision since I'm now extremely sure of three other townies.
You'll also notice how Palmar and I proposed the VisceraEyes, Dirkzor, Navilus team at a point where we thought (well at least I did) that Dirkzor, Navilus and both of us would yay it and that VisceraEyes would probably seal the deal since he was on it. Why would either of us take such a risk as scum, to submit to accepting a team that apparently doesn't contain any spies, with the only thing that could stop us would be a townie voting nay to a team that he himself was on? We're also both prepared to yay VisceraEyes, Dirkzor, Navilus and the other. Does this look like one of us is scum?
I also think it's weird that you think Blazinghand is town. I know that he's loud.
Anyway, you guys better yay this or have a pretty good reason for why I am scum.
On March 02 2012 12:23 Blazinghand wrote: I'm just saying that Dirk being scum is unlikely (but not impossible) if Palmar is scum. He'd want to pick two town players on his D1 team almost certainly, even assuming he can coordinate who's sabotaging (which he definitely could). My interpretation of Palmar's team suggestion was this: Palmar is scum, and he suggested Dirk and Nav who he both knew was town. He suggested Dirk because he wanted to look like he was suggesting a team, and he suggested Nav to be a "fall guy" for when the team failed, making up some bad rationalization of "well scum would care about the game more". I just don't think it would be optimal play for a Palm/Dirk/X scumteam to put both Palm and Dirk on a team together like that with Nav.
On February 21 2012 18:54 Blazinghand wrote: Sorry, can't deal with a Navillus team. He stopped by the thread a couple of times to ask questions and generally fail. The fact that he showed up after the deadline to offer a "team" and then immediately dipped up out is even more disconcerting, IMO. I really think you could have done better than Navillus. Much better.
I like Dirk. I'm not actually super pleased with you on the team either, especially if you think Navillus is somehow one of the three townest players in this game.
There are much better people you could have picked as man #3 for the team, like Kita or myself.
That being said, thank you for suggesting a team.
##Vote Palmar: Nay
Find the difference...
Can't? I'll spell it out for you.
Post 1) BH say that its unlikely that I'm scum if Palmar is scum based on Palmars first team suggestion. Reason for that is, if Palmar is scum he would want to bring 2 town players with him.
Post 2) BH suggests that Navillus is scum (or atleast scummy looking) based on Navillus lack of thread presence and due to him not suggesting a team in time. He also think that Palmar is looking scummy for choosing Navillus as a member of Palmars team.
How could BH not find the same reasoning in Post 2) that he did in Post 1) ?
Also why did he think this in between those two posts:
On February 23 2012 05:49 Blazinghand wrote: I don't like Dirk since his interaction with you (palmar). I don't like Navillus, period. Currently acceptable third members for a team with VE or Sent: Chaos13, BH. MAYBE PRPL but I don't really like him atm.
On March 02 2012 14:33 Navillus wrote: So this should be sort of completely absolutely 100% obvious but same team, also I think this puts these 3 people almost completely in the clear as if there was a scum their options are 1. sabatoge now 2. sabatoge day 2 with same team which yields them exactly 0 benefit over sabatoging day 1 and gives us a free day or 3. wait til we get a bigger team day 3 (someone said this is happening, that is true correct?) in which case they've left themselves with 0 room for error which seems just stupid.
Why would it yield them zero benefit? By your logic, if I was town and one scum was already on the team, and team was sabotaged, who do you think would be FoS'ed?
I'll nay a prpl team if he includes himself. We just passed through a team, why would we send one of the likely scum suspects when we have a chance at winning this? Just because it happens to be his turn for submission, doesn't mean that he we should settle for a less than ideal member. There is no longer a threat for a draw.
Obviously I would prefer myself to be the fourth member. I know palmar and prpl have been opposing me, but we don't need scum votes to pass it through. Just because they are outspoken against me, doesn't mean they've got the towns best interests in mind. I think there are enough players that we could pass this through.
I think its funny that blazing passed through the first successful team and everyone comes to the assumption that he is scum. If he submitted the team, why wouldn't he be added on as the fourth member? If I'm not able to be part of the team, then I think blazing makes the most sense.
On March 02 2012 12:23 Blazinghand wrote: I'm just saying that Dirk being scum is unlikely (but not impossible) if Palmar is scum. He'd want to pick two town players on his D1 team almost certainly, even assuming he can coordinate who's sabotaging (which he definitely could). My interpretation of Palmar's team suggestion was this: Palmar is scum, and he suggested Dirk and Nav who he both knew was town. He suggested Dirk because he wanted to look like he was suggesting a team, and he suggested Nav to be a "fall guy" for when the team failed, making up some bad rationalization of "well scum would care about the game more". I just don't think it would be optimal play for a Palm/Dirk/X scumteam to put both Palm and Dirk on a team together like that with Nav.
On February 21 2012 18:54 Blazinghand wrote: Sorry, can't deal with a Navillus team. He stopped by the thread a couple of times to ask questions and generally fail. The fact that he showed up after the deadline to offer a "team" and then immediately dipped up out is even more disconcerting, IMO. I really think you could have done better than Navillus. Much better.
I like Dirk. I'm not actually super pleased with you on the team either, especially if you think Navillus is somehow one of the three townest players in this game.
There are much better people you could have picked as man #3 for the team, like Kita or myself.
That being said, thank you for suggesting a team.
##Vote Palmar: Nay
Find the difference...
Can't? I'll spell it out for you.
Post 1) BH say that its unlikely that I'm scum if Palmar is scum based on Palmars first team suggestion. Reason for that is, if Palmar is scum he would want to bring 2 town players with him.
Post 2) BH suggests that Navillus is scum (or atleast scummy looking) based on Navillus lack of thread presence and due to him not suggesting a team in time. He also think that Palmar is looking scummy for choosing Navillus as a member of Palmars team.
How could BH not find the same reasoning in Post 2) that he did in Post 1) ?
Also why did he think this in between those two posts:
On February 23 2012 05:49 Blazinghand wrote: I don't like Dirk since his interaction with you (palmar). I don't like Navillus, period. Currently acceptable third members for a team with VE or Sent: Chaos13, BH. MAYBE PRPL but I don't really like him atm.
BH is scum. And by extention so is Chaos13.
Ah yes you're right, there's no reasonable explanation for me changing my mind over the course of the 10 days between those posts, which included dozens of pages, several team submissions and votecounts, etc. Clearly this is scum behavior not somebody changing his mind based on new evidence.
On March 03 2012 00:37 kitaman27 wrote: I think its funny that blazing passed through the first successful team and everyone comes to the assumption that he is scum. If he submitted the team, why wouldn't he be added on as the fourth member? If I'm not able to be part of the team, then I think blazing makes the most sense.
You clearly haven't looked at it from another player's point of view. Take a moment and think, man ._.
If you're Navillus and you think that BH is scum, it wouldn't be inconsistent with your views for him, low on town credibility, to do the Resistance equivalent of bussing an ally-- suggesting a team that you know will pass. I consider this to be fairly unlikely given the possibility of a town win since all it takes is one good fourth member for a D2 and D3 victory, but it's not impossible. If you begin with the assumption "BH is scum" then nothing inconsistent has happened. In fact, you might even say that I was attempting to head off some sort of similar suggestion from prplhz or Palmar, attempting to take credit for a team that was inevitable anyways. People will bend the facts to fit their conclusions assuming one doesn't rule out the other.
I'll nay a prpl team if he includes himself. We just passed through a team, why would we send one of the likely scum suspects when we have a chance at winning this? Just because it happens to be his turn for submission, doesn't mean that he we should settle for a less than ideal member. There is no longer a threat for a draw.
Obviously I would prefer myself to be the fourth member. I know palmar and prpl have been opposing me, but we don't need scum votes to pass it through. Just because they are outspoken against me, doesn't mean they've got the towns best interests in mind. I think there are enough players that we could pass this through.
I think its funny that blazing passed through the first successful team and everyone comes to the assumption that he is scum. If he submitted the team, why wouldn't he be added on as the fourth member? If I'm not able to be part of the team, then I think blazing makes the most sense.
I'd say it's more of a result of a mod pressure than people actually supporting BH. I don't think support for the guy is unanimous. It's more of, if we keep this stalemate going for political jockeying, the game just ends in a draw.
I'll nay a prpl team if he includes himself. We just passed through a team, why would we send one of the likely scum suspects when we have a chance at winning this? Just because it happens to be his turn for submission, doesn't mean that he we should settle for a less than ideal member. There is no longer a threat for a draw.
Obviously I would prefer myself to be the fourth member. I know palmar and prpl have been opposing me, but we don't need scum votes to pass it through. Just because they are outspoken against me, doesn't mean they've got the towns best interests in mind. I think there are enough players that we could pass this through.
I think its funny that blazing passed through the first successful team and everyone comes to the assumption that he is scum. If he submitted the team, why wouldn't he be added on as the fourth member? If I'm not able to be part of the team, then I think blazing makes the most sense.
I'd say it's more of a result of a mod pressure than people actually supporting BH. I don't think support for the guy is unanimous. It's more of, if we keep this stalemate going for political jockeying, the game just ends in a draw.
Yeah also this. A draw would be super lame, and this was a team that was mostly acceptable to mostly everyone. The only people who should be automatically on the D2 team should be the three who were on the team today. Although *I* personally am the best fourth member, that doesn't mean I should automatically be put on the team. We should debate and see what people suggest/vote and get more info.
On March 02 2012 14:33 Navillus wrote: So this should be sort of completely absolutely 100% obvious but same team, also I think this puts these 3 people almost completely in the clear as if there was a scum their options are 1. sabatoge now 2. sabatoge day 2 with same team which yields them exactly 0 benefit over sabatoging day 1 and gives us a free day or 3. wait til we get a bigger team day 3 (someone said this is happening, that is true correct?) in which case they've left themselves with 0 room for error which seems just stupid.
Why would it yield them zero benefit? By your logic, if I was town and one scum was already on the team, and team was sabotaged, who do you think would be FoS'ed?
(It's me.)
I was incorrect about how the teams worked, I had believed that the day2 team is also 3 people.
Also ##Vote Prplhz: Yay I've been thinking about this a bit and actually agree with BH last page that it's unlikely that both Palmar and Prplhz are scum and think if one of them definitely is scum it's more likely Palmar. Now I'm just confused as to why BH nayed when he put forth that Prplhz could be town.
On March 02 2012 12:23 Blazinghand wrote: I'm just saying that Dirk being scum is unlikely (but not impossible) if Palmar is scum. He'd want to pick two town players on his D1 team almost certainly, even assuming he can coordinate who's sabotaging (which he definitely could). My interpretation of Palmar's team suggestion was this: Palmar is scum, and he suggested Dirk and Nav who he both knew was town. He suggested Dirk because he wanted to look like he was suggesting a team, and he suggested Nav to be a "fall guy" for when the team failed, making up some bad rationalization of "well scum would care about the game more". I just don't think it would be optimal play for a Palm/Dirk/X scumteam to put both Palm and Dirk on a team together like that with Nav.
On February 21 2012 18:54 Blazinghand wrote: Sorry, can't deal with a Navillus team. He stopped by the thread a couple of times to ask questions and generally fail. The fact that he showed up after the deadline to offer a "team" and then immediately dipped up out is even more disconcerting, IMO. I really think you could have done better than Navillus. Much better.
I like Dirk. I'm not actually super pleased with you on the team either, especially if you think Navillus is somehow one of the three townest players in this game.
There are much better people you could have picked as man #3 for the team, like Kita or myself.
That being said, thank you for suggesting a team.
##Vote Palmar: Nay
Find the difference...
Can't? I'll spell it out for you.
Post 1) BH say that its unlikely that I'm scum if Palmar is scum based on Palmars first team suggestion. Reason for that is, if Palmar is scum he would want to bring 2 town players with him.
Post 2) BH suggests that Navillus is scum (or atleast scummy looking) based on Navillus lack of thread presence and due to him not suggesting a team in time. He also think that Palmar is looking scummy for choosing Navillus as a member of Palmars team.
How could BH not find the same reasoning in Post 2) that he did in Post 1) ?
Also why did he think this in between those two posts:
On February 23 2012 05:49 Blazinghand wrote: I don't like Dirk since his interaction with you (palmar). I don't like Navillus, period. Currently acceptable third members for a team with VE or Sent: Chaos13, BH. MAYBE PRPL but I don't really like him atm.
BH is scum. And by extention so is Chaos13.
Ah yes you're right, there's no reasonable explanation for me changing my mind over the course of the 10 days between those posts, which included dozens of pages, several team submissions and votecounts, etc. Clearly this is scum behavior not somebody changing his mind based on new evidence.
I wasn't the fact that you changed your mind. It is the fact that you used 1 reasoning later on (which helped your agenda) which you clearly couldn't see early on even though palmar and I pointed it out for you...
On March 03 2012 05:07 Navillus wrote: Also ##Vote Prplhz: Yay I've been thinking about this a bit and actually agree with BH last page that it's unlikely that both Palmar and Prplhz are scum and think if one of them definitely is scum it's more likely Palmar. Now I'm just confused as to why BH nayed when he put forth that Prplhz could be town.
"prplhz is possibly town" is very different than "man this guy is the best fourth man"
He could be town, but I don't think he's the towniest player remaining. Of the 6 players who didn't go, 3 are scum and 3 are town (barring some weird "scum holding fire" deal).
Here's what me and the other two town players are thinking right now: "I know I'm town, which means of the 5 players who aren't me and haven't gone, 3 are scum and two are town. Unless I have a great read on someone being town, I should really try to send myself."
Here's what the three scum players are thinking: "I want to be the fourth man"
On March 02 2012 12:23 Blazinghand wrote: I'm just saying that Dirk being scum is unlikely (but not impossible) if Palmar is scum. He'd want to pick two town players on his D1 team almost certainly, even assuming he can coordinate who's sabotaging (which he definitely could). My interpretation of Palmar's team suggestion was this: Palmar is scum, and he suggested Dirk and Nav who he both knew was town. He suggested Dirk because he wanted to look like he was suggesting a team, and he suggested Nav to be a "fall guy" for when the team failed, making up some bad rationalization of "well scum would care about the game more". I just don't think it would be optimal play for a Palm/Dirk/X scumteam to put both Palm and Dirk on a team together like that with Nav.
On February 21 2012 18:54 Blazinghand wrote: Sorry, can't deal with a Navillus team. He stopped by the thread a couple of times to ask questions and generally fail. The fact that he showed up after the deadline to offer a "team" and then immediately dipped up out is even more disconcerting, IMO. I really think you could have done better than Navillus. Much better.
I like Dirk. I'm not actually super pleased with you on the team either, especially if you think Navillus is somehow one of the three townest players in this game.
There are much better people you could have picked as man #3 for the team, like Kita or myself.
That being said, thank you for suggesting a team.
##Vote Palmar: Nay
Find the difference...
Can't? I'll spell it out for you.
Post 1) BH say that its unlikely that I'm scum if Palmar is scum based on Palmars first team suggestion. Reason for that is, if Palmar is scum he would want to bring 2 town players with him.
Post 2) BH suggests that Navillus is scum (or atleast scummy looking) based on Navillus lack of thread presence and due to him not suggesting a team in time. He also think that Palmar is looking scummy for choosing Navillus as a member of Palmars team.
How could BH not find the same reasoning in Post 2) that he did in Post 1) ?
Also why did he think this in between those two posts:
On February 23 2012 05:49 Blazinghand wrote: I don't like Dirk since his interaction with you (palmar). I don't like Navillus, period. Currently acceptable third members for a team with VE or Sent: Chaos13, BH. MAYBE PRPL but I don't really like him atm.
BH is scum. And by extention so is Chaos13.
Ah yes you're right, there's no reasonable explanation for me changing my mind over the course of the 10 days between those posts, which included dozens of pages, several team submissions and votecounts, etc. Clearly this is scum behavior not somebody changing his mind based on new evidence.
I wasn't the fact that you changed your mind. It is the fact that you used 1 reasoning later on (which helped your agenda) which you clearly couldn't see early on even though palmar and I pointed it out for you...
My god you're so dense. Let me lay it out for you:
1) I didn't like Nav on Palm's team. I thought he was scum when palm suggested. 2) Palm and I argued, and I got the idea that instead, it's possible that Palm was scum and Nav was a fall guy. This seemed pretty reasonable. 3) That being said, Nav was not one of my three most town players. Before I did my votecount analysis, I was thinking "VE Sent BH". I didn't like that Dirk and Nav were sitting on Palmar's dick, and didn't really know what to make of that, so I went with my 2 strongest reads 4) I realize Sent is scum, and am thinking that BH VE Dirk would probably be beast, dick-sitting aside 5) I am not a viable team candidate but Nav is probably clean, since I'm very sure palm is scum by this point, so I suggest my team.
Did you actually read my entire filter or just quote random shit or what
BH: I get that you changed you mind. I have also changed my mind througout this game. I just found it funny/weird/wcummy that the arguments used against you (by Palmar and me) is now an argument you yourself use when you didn't see the logic back then...
BH: In short, everyone in your scenario is saying "I want to be the fourth man".
I'm going to yay-vote this team.
If it succeeds, scum have to win all 3 of the last missions and there is enough time to stop that from happening.
If it fails, finger-pointing time.
At any rate, I'd rather move this game along, and I'm laxing my yay conditions. It's page frickin-37. There are NINE of us. This shouldn't take an eternity and a half to finish.
Read my posts addressed to kita for my analysis of Palmar's team.
Do you seriously think I would have written this post if I were a spy? You're probably entertaining the idea that I'm scum with Navilus.
My early game gut read on Palmar is a bit hard to explain because I didn't have much time for the game back then and it was very much something I just felt, I didn't read everybody's filter carefully or anything. It's mostly meta, he really looks like he wants to win the game and find scum. In the last game I saw where he was scum (Werewolves II) he didn't really care about town and I think it showed. It was stuff like "GG scum" and "lol look at them come out", like it's easy to write this but there's just another feel to it than when he writes "You need to give us something, if not a measurement of your neck.". He traditionally seems a bit more harmless as scum I'd say but I'm not an expert or anything (inb4 "lol he says he's bad he's clearly scum!"). Dunno, I just decided to trust myself because I didn't have a ton of time and because I didn't trust myself sufficiently in Werewolves II. Additionally, he had the same town reads as me on Dirkzor and Navilus and it's always a town trait that people agree with you.
The only meta thing that could tick me off in the direction of him being spy is how he's agreeing with me (offered to sheep me in Werewolves II and agreed with my BloodyC0bbler accusations in Responsibility Mafia!). Town Palmar doesn't agree much people who aren't syllogism or sandroba or people in that league. Prompted me to read my posts again, but I think they're okay, and his posts again, but I don't really see any of the laziness/irresponsibility that I think he'd show as spy. Also this came later so it doesn't really have anything to do with my early game town read on him.
Pretty much, right now, from my point of view, Palmar is 97% certain to be town and I don't really see why I should suspect him of anything when there are clearly scummier characters around. If he's a spy then it sucks a lot but I really doubt it.
I'm going to bed now, I hope it was sufficient. Next is Navilus and then Palmar so I don't really fear for anything unless Navilus wants to do something crazy. You should still vote yes.
You've played with me and Palmar more than anybody else in this game VisceraEyes, it's really freaking me out that you don't see the same things that we see. I thought about how kitaman27 could maybe be town and you be scum but I'm still leaning town on you. chaos13 and his apathy looks town for some reason and I'm like 97% sure that [UoN]Sentinel and Blazinghand are spies. You should really convince yourself that I'm town before we win this game.
Oh look, [UoN]Sentinel yayed. That was weird but whatever.
On March 03 2012 06:11 Blazinghand wrote: Oh hey look it's Scum Sent giving a Scum yayvote to his scum buddy Prpl
Please explain. At the moment, prplhz's logic is looking infinitely better than yours.
Read the post below the one you just wrote and stand in awe of his ability to say random shit and at first glance make it look coherent. unsupported reads (despite the fact that he claims he's supporting them) contractory claims, still thinks... Nav... Ve... man I don't even what
On March 03 2012 06:11 Blazinghand wrote: Oh hey look it's Scum Sent giving a Scum yayvote to his scum buddy Prpl
Please explain. At the moment, prplhz's logic is looking infinitely better than yours.
Read the post below the one you just wrote and stand in awe of his ability to say random shit and at first glance make it look coherent. unsupported reads (despite the fact that he claims he's supporting them) contractory claims, still thinks... Nav... Ve... man I don't even what
Like how is he surprised you yayed when you're his scumbuddy oh wait he's not
On March 03 2012 06:11 Blazinghand wrote: Oh hey look it's Scum Sent giving a Scum yayvote to his scum buddy Prpl
Please explain. At the moment, prplhz's logic is looking infinitely better than yours.
Read the post below the one you just wrote and stand in awe of his ability to say random shit and at first glance make it look coherent. unsupported reads (despite the fact that he claims he's supporting them) contractory claims, still thinks... Nav... Ve... man I don't even what
Like how is he surprised you yayed when you're his scumbuddy oh wait he's not
His evidence is solid, and by solid I mean I can't come up with an argument against his second-to-last beef post. But that's my opinion.
What's a fact is that your evidence against him is next to nil.
Read my posts addressed to kita for my analysis of Palmar's team.
Do you seriously think I would have written this post if I were a spy? You're probably entertaining the idea that I'm scum with Navilus.
Easy there killer, I just yay-voted the team with you on it BEFORE hearing from you. That should tell you something about where I'm leaning, no?
On March 03 2012 06:25 prplhz wrote: My early game gut read on Palmar is a bit hard to explain because I didn't have much time for the game back then and it was very much something I just felt, I didn't read everybody's filter carefully or anything. It's mostly meta, he really looks like he wants to win the game and find scum. In the last game I saw where he was scum (Werewolves II) he didn't really care about town and I think it showed. It was stuff like "GG scum" and "lol look at them come out", like it's easy to write this but there's just another feel to it than when he writes "You need to give us something, if not a measurement of your neck.". He traditionally seems a bit more harmless as scum I'd say but I'm not an expert or anything (inb4 "lol he says he's bad he's clearly scum!"). Dunno, I just decided to trust myself because I didn't have a ton of time and because I didn't trust myself sufficiently in Werewolves II. Additionally, he had the same town reads as me on Dirkzor and Navilus and it's always a town trait that people agree with you.
Okay, I have a couple of problems with this paragraph. I understand not having enough time to contribute to the game - see my performance in Resistance I if you need affirmation of that. And given that my initial read on Palmar was town, I understand that much. However, the game has progressed sir. Gut reads aren't going to cut it from here forward. Neither are meta reads. The fact that the two of you are just holding hands and skipping through this game really worries me, and it's NOT just because I'm jealous.
And what's with that bolded statement? "It's a town trait that people agree with you." WTF? I don't even know what that means. If you mean that "you're more inclined to believe someone is town if they agree with you" then yeah, that kinda goes without saying...but saying it's a "town trait"? Nooooooo sir. I'm town, and for the early part of the day I disagreed with you regarding Navillus. If agreeing with you is a town trait, is disagreeing with you a scum trait? If that's the case we're ALL scum because we've ALL disagreed with someone at some point about something.
On March 03 2012 06:25 prplhz wrote: The only meta thing that could tick me off in the direction of him being spy is how he's agreeing with me (offered to sheep me in Werewolves II and agreed with my BloodyC0bbler accusations in Responsibility Mafia!). Town Palmar doesn't agree much people who aren't syllogism or sandroba or people in that league. Prompted me to read my posts again, but I think they're okay, and his posts again, but I don't really see any of the laziness/irresponsibility that I think he'd show as spy. Also this came later so it doesn't really have anything to do with my early game town read on him.
I noticed this too, but Palmar isn't so exclusive about who he agrees with. For example, look at L, where after my incredibly bad play of claiming Jack resulted in Palmar voting and subsequently pushing for people to vote for me. Not because I'm a good player, but because to him I was essentially confirmed town. He was town that game.
What causes me to disagree with your read of Palmar is the italicized statement in your quote. As scum, Palmar tends to be lazy/not care about town in mafia. Resistance is a different beast, because he doesn't have to fear being lynched and he can be as scummy as he wants. Palmar getting lynched is detrimental to a scum-team solely because of numbers. In standard mafia games, scum are vastly outnumbered and each one that dies is keenly felt. In Resistance though, scum don't have to be afraid of dying. They only have to be afraid of not being included in missions. And even if they're not included in missions, all they have to do is make one or two really good posts (something Palmar excels at) to be back in the running. Therefor, I don't think Palmar's standard scum-meta applies to this game - it's a different game with different circumstances. You should be looking at his actions - the arguments he presents and why - to determine if you think Palmar is scum this game (and every game technically, but I digress) because meta is almost meaningless.
On March 03 2012 06:25 prplhz wrote:Pretty much, right now, from my point of view, Palmar is 97% certain to be town and I don't really see why I should suspect him of anything when there are clearly scummier characters around. If he's a spy then it sucks a lot but I really doubt it.
I'm going to bed now, I hope it was sufficient. Next is Navilus and then Palmar so I don't really fear for anything unless Navilus wants to do something crazy. You should still vote yes.
"Clearly scummier characters around". I mean, this mentality works in mafia because we can only lynch one person at a time. However, we can exclude ALL THE SCUMMY CHARACTERS AT ONCE in this game. Just because Palmar is scummy TO A LESSER DEGREE doesn't mean anything in this game prplhz, and the fact that you said that makes me very uncomfortable. Also you prefaced that statement with "Palmar is 97% certain to be town"...if that's the case, then why would you even continue on to say the rest of that stuff?
On March 03 2012 06:25 prplhz wrote:You've played with me and Palmar more than anybody else in this game VisceraEyes, it's really freaking me out that you don't see the same things that we see. I thought about how kitaman27 could maybe be town and you be scum but I'm still leaning town on you. chaos13 and his apathy looks town for some reason and I'm like 97% sure that [UoN]Sentinel and Blazinghand are spies. You should really convince yourself that I'm town before we win this game.
I know, but the problem is I left and you and Palmar got better on the TL curve and I got better on the MS curve, so you guys are both better than I am now. If you keep making posts like this one, I'll probably change my read of at least you. Palmar, it's gonna take a bit more. In the meantime...
What do you expect Palmar? You're not willing to play with us - too good for us I'd assume. Why would you expect anyone to listen to you when this is the median amount of effort you're willing to put in?
"look at that good post"
"no ur stupid"
"oh look there's scum"
It's fucking retarded. Tell us WHY we should yay-vote the first team proposed on D2 Palmar, not that we're retarded for even CONSIDERING an alternative. Christ.
I pushed a team with you, dirk, navillus very early on day 1, I tried multiple times to get it through.
now this team went on a successful mission, so it's smart to send them all again, and find the most towny player in the game to add to the team. Besides myself (I'm painfully obvious town), that is prplhz.
So, do you think I'm dumb? Do you think I am scum and the first alternative to my original team (me, dirk, nav) that I suggested (replacing me with you) just randomly happened to have 3 townies? Wouldn't that be terrible scum play?
You know I'm good at this. I'm telling you, prplhz is almost definitely town. Will you please just fucking listen to me?
Okay okay, looking back, really the only reason I think you're scum is because of how buddy-buddy you've been with prplhz. I haven't been taking into account how cocky you are about your reads...I should know better.
##Vote: Yay
If this mission fails, who do you suggest we replace Palmar?
On March 03 2012 10:40 Palmar wrote: I pushed a team with you, dirk, navillus very early on day 1, I tried multiple times to get it through.
oh rly?
On February 21 2012 18:36 Palmar wrote: Team: Palmar, Dirkzor, Navillus
You tried so hard to push it through that only yourself stood in the way of actually submitting it as your team.
On March 03 2012 11:19 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay okay, looking back, really the only reason I think you're scum is because of how buddy-buddy you've been with prplhz. I haven't been taking into account how cocky you are about your reads...I should know better.
##Vote: Yay
If this mission fails, who do you suggest we replace Palmar?
lol your opinion changes based on the most recent person to respond to you -_-
Out of all the players, you think prpl is the most likely to be town? We aren't faced with the threat of a draw anymore. Just because its prpl's turn, doesn't mean he is the person we should send through.
This isn't the time to experiment. If we submit a team that passes, then the game is won because day three will pass as well. Vote nay and we can send myself.
How exactly am I the poison? I'm the only player that advocated that we should extended the length of the first day to maximize information. Palmar directly opposed this. I've been completely logical the entire game.
Team prplhz: VisceraEyes, Dirkzor, Navillus, prplhz
Navillus - Yay Palmar - Yay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Nay Dirkzor - Yay chaos13 - Failed to vote! VisceraEyes - Nay Blazinghand - Nay prplhz - Failed to vote!
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team prplhz is Rejected!
Navillus is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in 24 hours at 13:30 GMT (+00:00), or 4 March 22:30 KST. If Navillus has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be Palmar.
Like, it's effing HARD to get an accurate read on people when there are people in the game who don't even appear to be playing. Incomplete information is incomplete.
Shoot I've had a busy day, hmm... I don't know what team I really want, I liked the last one and I feel like this will go the same way but it's the best I've got.
Team Navillus: VisceraEyes, Dirkzor, Navillus, Palmar
Hmmm I just saw the VE thing, sorry I was trying to get the team in as fast as I could, though I actually prefer the Palmar team if you want to just get that team just Nay this down quickly and let Palmar put Prplhz in.
Okay guys we all need to vote Nay and here's why: I was wrong about Sent being scum, it was actually VE.
Right now you're thinking, "Hey Blazinghand that sounds totally crazy are you a crazy man or what"
No, I am not crazy. So let's go over objections to VE being scum:
1) Well if he's scum why didn't he sabotage?
Well this is pretty clear.
On March 02 2012 15:42 VisceraEyes wrote: It should be noted also that there might have been a misunderstanding about the sabotage rules - there was a night-phase in Resistance 1 where the scum team was given the opportunity to submit a sabotage. In this game it looks like scum have to submit their sabotage WITH their vote...so it's possible there's scum on the successful team who forgot to submit their sabotage. And with as many 'Failed to vote' as we've had, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
VE didn't send in his sabotage action because he misread the OP. This is him telling his scumteammates not to flip out, he's got it covered.
2) Wait if he's scum what's the deal with his interaction with prplhz?
VE's "attack" on prplhz is very mild and contained, and he actually is trying to communicate that he'd rather be on a team with Palmar than prplhz
As you can see, VE is interacting with his scumbuddy prplhz. So then we ask "well what's the deal with VE voting no on the team with prplhz?"
On March 04 2012 03:18 VisceraEyes wrote: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Sorry guys - I meant to yay that team...I'm a failure.
SEe now it makes sense! He couldn't feel confident crumbing to prplhz not to double sabo (from their interaction) so he nayvoted it. VE is not that stupid, he would have yayed it if he could The reason he nayed is that he wanted to get the "Cred" for yayvoting but nayvote it so he could go with the much easier to communicate with Palmar.
On March 03 2012 11:19 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay okay, looking back, really the only reason I think you're scum is because of how buddy-buddy you've been with prplhz. I haven't been taking into account how cocky you are about your reads...I should know better.
##Vote: Yay
If this mission fails, who do you suggest we replace Palmar?
And Palmar reciprocates:
On March 04 2012 04:42 Palmar wrote: everyone in the game has posted enough to be understood.
SCUM ARE TALKING TO EACH OTHER IN THE THREAD YOU GUYS. VOTE NAY ON THIS TEAM
On March 04 2012 22:28 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Vote: Yay
I really can't wrap my head around your voting patterns
[UoN]Sentinel, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes: Yay Dirkzor, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes: Yay VisceraEyes, Palmar, prplhz: Yay VisceraEyes, Dirkzor, Navillus: Yay VisceraEyes, Dirkzor, Navillus, prplhz: Nay, but claimed to wanted yay
You've approved teams with yourself, sentinel, blazinghand, Dirkzor, Palmar, Navillus, and prplhz.
That is every player that has ever been suggested for a team (Myself and chaos weren't even submitted at any point) So do you think everyone is town?
How do you come to the conclusion that Palmar is town over myself? He went out of his way to attack my plan to maximize information by cycling through several team submissions, arguing that more information makes his reads worse. How does this even make sense?
I'm really not sure why you are willing to throw away a successful day one for a less than ideal day two submission. When the team fails, what happens? Do you automatically assume Palmar was the spy? Would you still trust him and assume dirk/nav was the spy? If we submit myself with the day two team, we win the game if you, dirk and nav are town. We can double submit the same team on day two and day three and its GG. Why are you throwing the opportunity way?
You mentioned you thought I was town prior, yet suddenly I'm the "poison"? What does this even mean? You never even brought up reasons, which really worries me. Today isn't the time to submit a semi-certain town read, it needs to be the single player who you think is most likely to be town. I think my filter proves that fact.
I'm not going to defend myself against no accusations. Your'e taking everything I'm saying out of context saying it means something it doesn't. There's no way to defend against that. If you think I don't have town's best interest in mind, I suggest you come up with an actual accusation.
What, a better accusation than the voting "mistake" and your "conversation" with prplhz and the fact that you were chill going on a team with palmar after he was like "yeah we all know what we're doing" confirmed that he picked up on your scumhint to your scumteammates
Well, until you can make a case for me trying to make town lose the game, I don't care what you think is reasonable. I'm trying to win with town, and I think this is a good D2 team.
Stop inventing scenarios that fit your perspective of what's happening in the game. Try and understand what's going on in the game instead.
But surely you can imagine how someone looking at your statements/actions re: the whole "oh I didn't know you had to sabotage like X" and your yay/nay vote on the prpl team after your interaction with him, then Palmar saying "okay i think we know what the deal is" and then you yayvoting
On March 05 2012 09:26 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm not going to defend myself against no accusations. .
How about respond to my question then? Why Palmar over myself? Who is your three spies? Just give me a chance to prove myself and we have the game won. It's frustrating that Palmar can bully his way onto the team, making you feel pressured to vote for him because he's going to attack you if you don't. That's fear mongering and the reason he's doing it is because he is scum.
Team Navillus: VisceraEyes, Dirkzor, Navillus, Palmar
Navillus - Yay Palmar - Yay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Nay Dirkzor - Yay chaos13 - Failed to vote! VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Nay prplhz - Yay
The plan was a clumsy as it was complicated. After three days of planning and painstackingly mapping out the route and guard schedules, the plan was finally set in motion. In the dead of night, the four made their way toward the village square. The area was open and lit, and guarded by several sleepy guards. In retrospect they couldn´t have chosen a more dangerous target to attack, or one with less strategic importance, but it made up for it with visibility.
The first stage went well, a squad of hungry and sleepy soldiers were diverted with lustfull eyes on a voluptuous and bountifull basket of savory delights. The alert guard in front was dealt with by a simple pin, coated in much less simple sleeping poison, procured at great risk at the clinic during a treatment of tootache the week before. With the guards distracted, the resistance fighters picked the lock to the side door, leaving the way open into the installation. There was but one last obstacle, the civilian running the place, but this was war, and another victim would make little difference. A single gunshot rang out.
Having dealt with the customers and the cook, they planted the bomb under the stove in the small hotdog stand, and left quickly, before anyone else could come around. The fireworks were as disappointing as the looks of the hungry soldiers returning to the square for a nightly snack, but the hunger they felt now was nothing to what would come next...
Mission 2 suffered no sabotage attempts and was successful!
Palmar is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in 24 hours at 09:00 GMT (+00:00), or 6 March 18:00 KST. If the leader has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be leader.
Sorry for the late update, my bad. I involuntarily fell into recuperating coma somewhere right before the deadline.
Okay so I think what happened here is that Palm and VE failed to coordinate and both didn't sabotage! This is good news guys, we just need to remove both of them for the D3 team. I recommend myself and Sent. Let's 3-0 this.
Look man you have to admit there is irrefutable evidence that I've caught the scumteam of you, Palm, and VE. You're just desperately trying to salvage things for a D3 team, but I'm not gonna let that happen. People will see reason.
On March 05 2012 17:44 Blazinghand wrote: Okay so I think what happened here is that Palm and VE failed to coordinate and both didn't sabotage! This is good news guys, we just need to remove both of them for the D3 team. I recommend myself and Sent. Let's 3-0 this.
On March 05 2012 18:04 Blazinghand wrote: Look man you have to admit there is irrefutable evidence that I've caught the scumteam of you, Palm, and VE. You're just desperately trying to salvage things for a D3 team, but I'm not gonna let that happen. People will see reason.
Look... Even if you are right why gamble on that? We have a team that succeeded and we're sending the same team... Nothing else make sense. We still have day 4 where they need 2 sabotages... We're golden even if we get 1 sabotage day 3.
On March 05 2012 18:04 Blazinghand wrote: Look man you have to admit there is irrefutable evidence that I've caught the scumteam of you, Palm, and VE. You're just desperately trying to salvage things for a D3 team, but I'm not gonna let that happen. People will see reason.
Look... Even if you are right why gamble on that? We have a team that succeeded and we're sending the same team... Nothing else make sense. We still have day 4 where they need 2 sabotages... We're golden even if we get 1 sabotage day 3.
Ok so you THINK that sounds reasonable right and that toally woudl be if only ONE of Palm/VE was scum, because we'd just swap that one out after a D3 sabo and we'd coast through D4 np by adding on an obviously town player like me, and taking someone who seems pretty solid for the 5th man, like Sent.
But what happens if they're both scum? then if we replace one, things get trickier, because if we replace in one scum or add in one scum, they can do the double sabotage on D4. I think we should at the very least replace one of Palm/VE out to solve this problem
On March 05 2012 18:07 Blazinghand wrote: Dirkzor! Surely you, of all people, can sense that something fishy is going on here
From what read you are flapping about trying to get something to stick. You are not making sense and are all over. Even if Palmar and VE are scum (and they still might... I'm not excluding anything), why not risk sending them day 3 aswell? Why? Well there is a number of reasons:
They can't afford not to sabotage, so maybe both will sabotage. If they are town, we win. Even if we only get 1 sabotage we replace both and should be very unlucky to hit the last remeaning scum(s) (1 or 2). If they are both scum we win. If ony 1 is scum the chances are good.
Ok I've gotta get some sleep, but take a moment to consider how reasonable my arguments are here. I'll be back in the morning to see what the responses of the scumteam are.
BH your plan is NOT reasonable at all. We have a team that have succeeded (twice almost) and you want to change that?!?! What?!?! Does NOT make sense.
I've explained what we'll do if we get 1 or 2 sabotages. We swap both Palmar and VE and cruise to victory... We got this now.
Only place I can see us loose is if only one of Palmar/VE is scum and we are so unnlucky that we change to the 2 remaining scum players. Thats unlikely. And is all else fail we can just add Chaos13 to the team since he isn't here to sabotage anyway even if he is scum.
Even if he is right is doesnt matter. I saw what VE wrote and called it out aswell. But day 4 will save us if they are scum. We replace both and we win.
I do need to re-read about what lead up to that point, but I think it's interesting that BH's team didn't include himself. He put together a compromise team just so that it would get through, since it looked like the game was going to dissolve into a draw. There's almost no motivation for a scum BH to not include 1. himself, le scum, or 2. scumbuddy B or C, because, with it being D1, the ability to sneak on a spy rly isn't that hard.
Of course, I still need to do actual analysis.
Off the top of my head prplhz' posting makes me lol the most.
On March 05 2012 17:44 Blazinghand wrote: Okay so I think what happened here is that Palm and VE failed to coordinate and both didn't sabotage! This is good news guys, we just need to remove both of them for the D3 team. I recommend myself and Sent. Let's 3-0 this.
I support this plan. Can I join too? I'm lonely getting left out
It feels weird that I'm the only one who think the same team should go again... It makes the most sense.
For me, both sides could be lieing.
A) So either VE/Palmar is town and we win or B) Either VE/Palmar (or one of them) is scum and one or both will sabotage day3.
If B) we change both of them with 2 others and win day4. If only one of VE/Palmar is scum we are left with a choice that is: Don't pick the 2 leftover scum out of the 5 people left. Shit thats should be easy. I
Yeah I did. And I still can't see what you mean. We just need to win day 3 OR 4. This will never go to day 5.
Maybe I'm the stupid one but then spell it out for me. If the same team who succeed day 2 fails day 3 we swap both palmar and VE and we're golden no matter which of them or both are scum...
On March 06 2012 00:07 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: What an odd turn of events happened when I was asleep.
Question - If there's 2 scum on a team and only one sabotages while the other says don't sabotage, does it say there were 2 spies on the team?
Only the number of attempted sabotages are shown, not how many spies were actually on the mission. If 2 scum are on the team and one sabotages the mission, then it shows up as 1 sabotage.
Just because something is painfully obvious to you, doesn't mean it is to everyone. Yelling at people for "dragging it out" by "not listening to you in the first place" is anti-productive.
Well your suggestions are terrible if they include cutting people who have been on 2 successful missions (me).
Even if I'm scum, it doesn't make logical sense whatsoever to remove me from the D3 team, and that's what you're suggesting. Any more than it would make sense to remove Dirk or Nav. I mean, if you think Palmar is scum I can see you trying to make a case for removing him as the most recent addition - but the three of Dirk Nav and myself have been on TWO SUCCESSFUL MISSIONS.
Not listening to this logic is why town failed the first Resistance (Hello Palmar team ftl)
Stop grasping BH. Posting pictures, while entertaining, isn't doing anything to convince anyone. If you really think Palmar or myself is scum, explain why in a way that doesn't involve jumping to conclusions based on WIFOM and feigned paranoia. If we're really scum, there's a pattern somewhere in the votes or in the agendas we've pushed. Find it and post that. Not pictures of owls and kittens.
Or the fact that you were straight up scum communicating your scum plans to each other here in the thread? how did nobody but me notice you guys basically straight up talking to each other huh
On March 06 2012 06:38 Blazinghand wrote: Or the fact that you were straight up scum communicating your scum plans to each other here in the thread? how did nobody but me notice you guys basically straight up talking to each other huh
On March 06 2012 06:38 Blazinghand wrote: Or the fact that you were straight up scum communicating your scum plans to each other here in the thread? how did nobody but me notice you guys basically straight up talking to each other huh
I picked up on this too. Good point!
I call bullshit on this because I never talk to VE except when I need to call him dumb.
On March 06 2012 06:38 Blazinghand wrote: Or the fact that you were straight up scum communicating your scum plans to each other here in the thread? how did nobody but me notice you guys basically straight up talking to each other huh
I picked up on this too. Good point!
I call bullshit on this because I never talk to VE except when I need to call him dumb.
♥
This is a fact. It's misleading though because he calls me dumb all the time, so it's like we're best buds how much he actually talks to me.
why did you disagree with my first team BH? Why not wait for the other scum to do that, you were already looking kinda good until you broke your logic with opposing that team.
On March 06 2012 08:00 Palmar wrote: why did you disagree with my first team BH? Why not wait for the other scum to do that, you were already looking kinda good until you broke your logic with opposing that team.
On March 06 2012 08:00 Palmar wrote: why did you disagree with my first team BH? Why not wait for the other scum to do that, you were already looking kinda good until you broke your logic with opposing that team.
On March 06 2012 08:00 Palmar wrote: why did you disagree with my first team BH? Why not wait for the other scum to do that, you were already looking kinda good until you broke your logic with opposing that team.
On February 26 2012 02:50 chaos13 wrote: Nayvoting. Guess why? Yeah, Dirkzor is on it again.
I can only guess that chaos13 was townie
You can also just read your role PM to confirm it.
He's trying to play as much as possible like chaos13, so expect no useful posts between now and the deadline and a FAIL vote regardless of what he committed to vote as. We'll see him again in a week.
The spies were ready! They needed but one break, and the resistance movement would be stopped in their tracks. A carefully hidden suitcase nuke was ready to catch the saboteurs when they returned to the base to drown their sorrow after the failed mission in imported vodka. Alas, it was not to be. The mission against the zoo was successfull, the bear was shaved and tomorrows speech for the morale of the troops was ruined, because the general would just look rediculous making an inspirational speech with a hairless bear in the background. To celebrate the victory the resistance members were having margueritas at their favorite bar, pointing and laughing as the hungry and sober soldiers of the occupations left the city in shame. No nighttime snacks, no wine, no hair of the bear, that was no way for an army to fight.
The Spies Blazinghand, EchelonTee and kitaman27 were sent to siberia!
Team Palmar: Palmar, Dirkzor, Navillus, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Yay Palmar - Yay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Failed to vote! Dirkzor - Yay EchelonTee - Failed to vote! VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Nay prplhz - Yay
6 Yays, 3 Nays Team VisceraEyes is Accepted!
Thanks to everyone for playing! Thanks to Adam4167 for handling 90% of the updates =)
thanks for hosting to Forumite and Adam4167 by the way!!!
resistance isn't too much unlike no flip mafia games really
we were just very lucky that palmar picked an all town team, just went downhill from spies from then on. kudos to blazing for fighting on and palmar was totally right, you gave yourself away with your huge resistance to his team. no matter what you think, i really doubt that you would have done that as town.
i have no idea what chaos' big navilus analysis was about, seems pretty bad by scum to write big analysis with town conclusion like that.
Well played everyone, especially town. You guys were so organised right from the start.
The comedy of errors on the D2 mission actually had me laughing. Prplhz forgetting to yay vote his own team, and VE forgetting to change his vote from nay to yay, even after declaring he would.
Yea it was great. It's just like regular mafia really with that twist that you have to find townies instead of scum. It's pretty cool. Only comment I have is that it was a bit slow, took almost 1 month for a 9 player flawless town victory. I'm also curious about this "plot thickens" thing.
On February 25 2012 11:07 Forumite wrote: Team kitaman27: Dirkzor, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Yay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Nay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team kitaman27 is Rejected!
Dirkzor is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in just under 24 hours, at 02:00 GMT (+00:00), or 26 february 11:00 KST. If Dirkzor has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be the Leader.
Super Nay by me. /pat on my back
Was a really fun game. I like the mechanics of teamvoting and the small player pool. I enjoyed the "town" atmosphere in this game. I do agree that it took quite a long time day1 but that wasn't only the game mechanics. People we're painfully slow to put up teams and vote. We almost waited 24h every voting cycle.
/In for next one =)
Btw funny how spies won game 1 flawless and town won game 2 flawless.
On February 25 2012 11:07 Forumite wrote: Team kitaman27: Dirkzor, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Yay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Nay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team kitaman27 is Rejected!
Dirkzor is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in just under 24 hours, at 02:00 GMT (+00:00), or 26 february 11:00 KST. If Dirkzor has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be the Leader.
Super Nay by me. /pat on my back
Was a really fun game. I like the mechanics of teamvoting and the small player pool. I enjoyed the "town" atmosphere in this game. I do agree that it took quite a long time day1 but that wasn't only the game mechanics. People we're painfully slow to put up teams and vote. We almost waited 24h every voting cycle.
/In for next one =)
Btw funny how spies won game 1 flawless and town won game 2 flawless.
GG and thx for hosting!
Thankfully chaos nay'd it. I wonder why - trying to look town in case we figured out BH or something?
On February 25 2012 11:07 Forumite wrote: Team kitaman27: Dirkzor, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Yay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Nay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team kitaman27 is Rejected!
Dirkzor is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in just under 24 hours, at 02:00 GMT (+00:00), or 26 february 11:00 KST. If Dirkzor has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be the Leader.
Super Nay by me. /pat on my back
Was a really fun game. I like the mechanics of teamvoting and the small player pool. I enjoyed the "town" atmosphere in this game. I do agree that it took quite a long time day1 but that wasn't only the game mechanics. People we're painfully slow to put up teams and vote. We almost waited 24h every voting cycle.
/In for next one =)
Btw funny how spies won game 1 flawless and town won game 2 flawless.
GG and thx for hosting!
Thankfully chaos nay'd it. I wonder why - trying to look town in case we figured out BH or something?
I think he wanted to look town and was hoping for a different D1 team. Or maybe at the time he voted it was unclear that with his yayvote it would pass, and he wasn't able to check it between voting and the deadline, so he just went with Nay.
BH while you're here - mind explaining why you claimed scum by saying you wanted to switch me out after being on 2 successful missions? It was reminiscent of Toad claiming scum by refusing to remove Palmar from a team when he was on 2 sabotaged missions.
If you had given me sufficient reason, I could have been convinced to trade out one of Nav/Palmar, and would have probably switched in kita if he also hadn't claimed scum. It just seemed like you gave up to quick, ya know?
On March 07 2012 03:40 VisceraEyes wrote: BH while you're here - mind explaining why you claimed scum by saying you wanted to switch me out after being on 2 successful missions? It was reminiscent of Toad claiming scum by refusing to remove Palmar from a team when he was on 2 sabotaged missions.
If you had given me sufficient reason, I could have been convinced to trade out one of Nav/Palmar, and would have probably switched in kita if he also hadn't claimed scum. It just seemed like you gave up to quick, ya know?
I went after you because of your statement after the D1 mission about sabotaging and stuff. Like, basically the only argument I could make was "wires got crossed and scum didn't sabotage". If I argue Palmar is scum, well, that's hard, I'd been arguing he's scum all game and to no avail. If I argue that Nav is scum that works, but you're a more open target because you expressed some confusion about the scum rules. I thought your interactions with prplhz and palmar could be construed as weird so I went for that. Just attacking Palmar more wouldn't have gotten me anywhere.
I think in hindsight I should have gone after you hard immediately after you made the post about the sabotage rule confusion, and said "For D2 we can't include VE, look, etc etc" and seen if I could have gotten myself or maybe Chaos (?) in your place.
I don't think chaos was an option...if you were able to convince town to replace me, you might have been an option, and Kita was an option until the last day here - Kita was doing a decent job of APPEARING town.
Oh that's true I forgot about Kita, but yeah he hadn't gone off the deep end. I think I would have gone with him then. But yeah I suggested an all team town because by far the worst result would be some kind of crappy draw, and it was the team we were gonna end up with eventually anyways. I think going back I would have been more aggressive after the D1 team passed and try to get in Kita between the replacement and the 4th man.
Overall town played like a million times better this game than in Resistance 1 though. Good work promoting discussions and putting pressure on us.
kita and bh both basically scumclaimed quite early. chaos was harder to figure out especially since 2 townies randomly yayvoted a team with bh on it, despite me proving beyond doubt he was scum. thankfully chaos didnt yayvote that.
It was really uphill for spies after Palmar proposed that team and was right about all of it. When 4 townies pretty much agree with one another on day1, the only way that scum can disrupt that is to all go against it and then try to argue their way out of a sabotaged mission. A day1 success is really uphill for scum, especially when 4 townies trusted each other quite much.
I don't understand the people who thought that I was scum.
On March 07 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote: It was really uphill for spies after Palmar proposed that team and was right about all of it. When 4 townies pretty much agree with one another on day1, the only way that scum can disrupt that is to all go against it and then try to argue their way out of a sabotaged mission. A day1 success is really uphill for scum, especially when 4 townies trusted each other quite much.
I don't understand the people who thought that I was scum.
Yeah I mean the whole Navillus missing his own team vote thing, meaning he was probably town, that was actually solid reasoning. I had to argue against it though
I actually don't know how I convinced ANYONE you were scum, but somehow it happened. You basically just agreed with Palmar and made decent analysis all game.
On February 24 2012 00:32 Forumite wrote: Team [UoN]Sentinel: [UoN]Sentinel, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Nay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Yay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team [UoN]Sentinel is Rejected!
On February 25 2012 11:07 Forumite wrote: Team kitaman27: Dirkzor, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Yay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Nay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team kitaman27 is Rejected!
lol for some reason I didn't realize sentinel's team was close to passing so I voted no. Upon realizing it could of went through, I substituted essentially the same team to pass it the second time, hoping that no one would notice and it still failed. Opps -_-
Having to shoot down the town teams from the start was rough. There weren't any townies to oppose it however, so me and blazing had to go after it or it was going through. I wish I would have come up with a better reason to oppose it however.
On February 25 2012 11:07 Forumite wrote: Team kitaman27: Dirkzor, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Yay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Nay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team kitaman27 is Rejected!
Dirkzor is the next leader
The current deadline to post a team is in just under 24 hours, at 02:00 GMT (+00:00), or 26 february 11:00 KST. If Dirkzor has not submitted a team by then, he will be skipped and the next one in line will be the Leader.
Super Nay by me. /pat on my back
Was a really fun game. I like the mechanics of teamvoting and the small player pool. I enjoyed the "town" atmosphere in this game. I do agree that it took quite a long time day1 but that wasn't only the game mechanics. People we're painfully slow to put up teams and vote. We almost waited 24h every voting cycle.
/In for next one =)
Btw funny how spies won game 1 flawless and town won game 2 flawless.
GG and thx for hosting!
Thankfully chaos nay'd it. I wonder why - trying to look town in case we figured out BH or something?
I think it would have been to obvious to vote yes for a team with me on it after he stated very clearly that he'd nay team with me on it. That would have looked strange. Had I voted yes for that team (which had made sense since i was on it) Chaos would look great. He could point fingers at me calling me scum with reason now.
On February 25 2012 11:07 Forumite wrote: Team kitaman27: Dirkzor, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Yay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Nay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team kitaman27 is Rejected!
lol for some reason I didn't realize sentinel's team was close to passing so I voted no. Upon realizing it could of went through, I substituted essentially the same team to pass it the second time, hoping that no one would notice and it still failed. Opps -_-
Having to shoot down the town teams from the start was rough. There weren't any townies to oppose it however, so me and blazing had to go after it or it was going through. I wish I would have come up with a better reason to oppose it however.
Thanks for hosting forumite and adam!
GG town.
Yeah you should just have voted yay on that first team. Why didn't you? Can't remember. Like I wrote just before, If you had sent another one then me instead of sent (prplhz?) maybe chaos would have yayed.
On February 24 2012 00:32 Forumite wrote: Team [UoN]Sentinel: [UoN]Sentinel, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Nay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Yay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team [UoN]Sentinel is Rejected!
On February 25 2012 11:07 Forumite wrote: Team kitaman27: Dirkzor, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes
Navillus - Nay Palmar - Nay [UoN]Sentinel - Yay kitaman27 - Yay Dirkzor - Nay chaos13 - Nay VisceraEyes - Yay Blazinghand - Yay prplhz - Nay
4 Yays, 5 Nays Team kitaman27 is Rejected!
lol for some reason I didn't realize sentinel's team was close to passing so I voted no. Upon realizing it could of went through, I substituted essentially the same team to pass it the second time, hoping that no one would notice and it still failed. Opps -_-
Having to shoot down the town teams from the start was rough. There weren't any townies to oppose it however, so me and blazing had to go after it or it was going through. I wish I would have come up with a better reason to oppose it however.
Thanks for hosting forumite and adam!
GG town.
Yeah you should just have voted yay on that first team. Why didn't you? Can't remember. Like I wrote just before, If you had sent another one then me instead of sent (prplhz?) maybe chaos would have yayed.
I mentioned that sent was my main scum suspect at the beginning of the game, but had I known other townies were find with it, I would have voted it through anyways.
First I'd like to apologize again for my screwups in missing my team and Palmar's team. Second I really wish that I had been a spy and done everything exactly the same, I'm sure that I would've been able to sabatoge day 2 stay on, sabatoge day 3, and maybe even stay to 5. Obviously though I'm not good enough to think to do what I did as scum Also GG all and gg BH I was actually fairly town on you at one point in the later part of the game but saw no reason to risk pushing for you on a team.
On March 07 2012 05:39 Navillus wrote: First I'd like to apologize again for my screwups in missing my team and Palmar's team. Second I really wish that I had been a spy and done everything exactly the same, I'm sure that I would've been able to sabatoge day 2 stay on, sabatoge day 3, and maybe even stay to 5. Obviously though I'm not good enough to think to do what I did as scum Also GG all and gg BH I was actually fairly town on you at one point in the later part of the game but saw no reason to risk pushing for you on a team.
Come in, call the rest of town bad, express wish to be on opposing team, compliment opposing team.
I think this game would have been a little different if chaos13 had actually been around to push himself as town. He could have tried to be the 5th man for the circle of 4 instead of VisceraEyes which would have been a really good scenario for scum. A chaos13/Palmar/Navilus team, or something like that, passed on chaos13/Palmar/Dirkzor/navilus/prplhz votes would have been awesome for spies.
Resistance is really a game in which there is not very far from victory to defeat for either side.
I don't really think that Navilus played spectacularly or anything Blazinghand and kita really got screwed over this game by that and by how chaos13 wasn't able to be as active as he ideally could have been.
Hey no I wasn't calling the town bad, I mean there's no way I ever could have done what I did as scum, I'm really talking about how theoretically there's no reason I wouldn't have been able to make all of the same moves if I were scum and I think that would have been awesome, emphasis on the there's no way I could ever actually do that... I've never even actually rolled scum, I probably slip up on the first page when I finally do.
On March 07 2012 05:54 prplhz wrote: I think this game would have been a little different if chaos13 had actually been around to push himself as town. He could have tried to be the 5th man for the circle of 4 instead of VisceraEyes which would have been a really good scenario for scum. A chaos13/Palmar/Navilus team, or something like that, passed on chaos13/Palmar/Dirkzor/navilus/prplhz votes would have been awesome for spies.
Resistance is really a game in which there is not very far from victory to defeat for either side.
I don't really think that Navilus played spectacularly or anything Blazinghand and kita really got screwed over this game by that and by how chaos13 wasn't able to be as active as he ideally could have been.
Indeed. I think that for a bit (was it when Dirk was running?) I trusted chaos because he wasn't really making any scumslips like kita did and BH later would. If he could have rolled with that, I think we'd still be playing right now.
On March 07 2012 05:54 prplhz wrote: I think this game would have been a little different if chaos13 had actually been around to push himself as town. He could have tried to be the 5th man for the circle of 4 instead of VisceraEyes which would have been a really good scenario for scum. A chaos13/Palmar/Navilus team, or something like that, passed on chaos13/Palmar/Dirkzor/navilus/prplhz votes would have been awesome for spies.
Resistance is really a game in which there is not very far from victory to defeat for either side.
I don't really think that Navilus played spectacularly or anything Blazinghand and kita really got screwed over this game by that and by how chaos13 wasn't able to be as active as he ideally could have been.
Indeed. I think that for a bit (was it when Dirk was running?) I trusted chaos because he wasn't really making any scumslips like kita did and BH later would. If he could have rolled with that, I think we'd still be playing right now.
Just out of curiosity (since this was my first scum game I'm still getting the hang of it) what kind of scumslips was I making?
On March 07 2012 05:54 prplhz wrote: I think this game would have been a little different if chaos13 had actually been around to push himself as town. He could have tried to be the 5th man for the circle of 4 instead of VisceraEyes which would have been a really good scenario for scum. A chaos13/Palmar/Navilus team, or something like that, passed on chaos13/Palmar/Dirkzor/navilus/prplhz votes would have been awesome for spies.
Resistance is really a game in which there is not very far from victory to defeat for either side.
I don't really think that Navilus played spectacularly or anything Blazinghand and kita really got screwed over this game by that and by how chaos13 wasn't able to be as active as he ideally could have been.
Indeed. I think that for a bit (was it when Dirk was running?) I trusted chaos because he wasn't really making any scumslips like kita did and BH later would. If he could have rolled with that, I think we'd still be playing right now.
Just out of curiosity (since this was my first scum game I'm still getting the hang of it) what kind of scumslips was I making?
You jumped from attempting to appear to make sense to flailing and throwing conspiracy theories around. It's not a scum-slip so much as a radical change in play-style, which is indicative of adapting to a changed gamestate, when the gamestate for town had stayed the same (or improved).
So I was following this game for most of it, and just thought I'd share a few comments/observations. Firstly, I forget when exactly it was, but at least prior to the first successful team passing, prpl was so town it hurt, very well played sir. No idea why anyone that wasn't scum was still considering him as possible scum after the successful day 1 mission. Even if it failed I would have gladly sent him out for a second try over anyone else in the game.
Blazing, when you are town, you are always very open to dialogue/explanations, especially in the early game. As others have pointed out, the way in which you refused Palmar's team was quite odd. In particular, this post + Show Spoiler +
On February 21 2012 18:54 Blazinghand wrote: Sorry, can't deal with a Navillus team. He stopped by the thread a couple of times to ask questions and generally fail. The fact that he showed up after the deadline to offer a "team" and then immediately dipped up out is even more disconcerting, IMO. I really think you could have done better than Navillus. Much better.
I like Dirk. I'm not actually super pleased with you on the team either, especially if you think Navillus is somehow one of the three townest players in this game.
There are much better people you could have picked as man #3 for the team, like Kita or myself.
That being said, thank you for suggesting a team.
##Vote Palmar: Nay
compared to your normal open-mindedness/willingness to wait for explanations in the early game seemed like you pretty much claiming scum. The following exchange only made things worse. It seemed like you needed to nay-vote that team, rather than your reads merely suggesting that you should nay-vote it.
Kita, you were already suspicious at this point, but after this post + Show Spoiler +
Mainly his attitude. Anyone that disagrees with him is automatically scum in his eyes. He is discrediting anyone that goes against his plan by insulting their intelligence.
Take a look at his response to blazing large post:
On February 26 2012 18:56 Palmar wrote: Also, I sincerely hope you're not town, because that would make you one of the worst players I've ever seen on TL.
Now this is in response to what I see as possibly the most constructive post of the game, going into the vote analysis. He simply discredits it and calls him bad. That's not a town response. That's a scum response attempting to maintain control over the thread. In fact, you had a very similar response to the analysis.
On February 26 2012 18:08 Blazinghand wrote: Now if we look at our existing "factions" (though even within the factions there is doubt amongst the members of each other's alignments:
On February 27 2012 22:23 prplhz wrote: I'd talk some more about kitaman27 but I don't really want to talk spy strategy.
lol what does this even mean? You think I'm scum, but you won't talk about it because discussing my actions this game would somehow further the town agenda?
I'll make my decision about this team after hearing back from VE.
I never changed in my certainty of you and blazing both being scum. You called it the most constructive post in the game, and then didn't say a word about the conclusions. Uh, what? It was so constructive that you should just read it and then completely ignore it? Also, given the fact that it reached a terribly odd conclusion given the data he had to work with (because he didn't want to call scum out as scum), calling it a constructive post to begin with was incredibly scummy.
Not much to say about the relatively inactive chaos.
Well played by town, managing to band together and form a town voting block willing to pass other townies on teams. It was interesting watching VE's gradual change of heart that ended up with him properly aligning with the town voting block.
Scum faced multiple problems this game. I'm not completely certain on how they could've tackled them better. But I think playing more for the long term would've worked better. Blazinghand was already a consideration for a team and due to his high activity he was at least managing to throw dust in my eyes. There's very little scum can do about me figuring out two townies and suggesting them with me, they have to rely on townies being wrong in that situation.
The correct play would've been for kita or chaos to oppose my team, and for blazinghand to align himself with us. Even at the cost of the team succeeding. By this point prplhz was still being lazy, and even though he later became the most obvious townie in the history of obvious townies, he was certainly not an auto-addition even if he supported this team. Getting Blazinghand on and sabotaging day 2 would've at least given scum a fighting chance.
I am not certain, but it might have been a good strategy for scum to start discrediting me hard right from the get-go, put me on the defensive. If you wait until I have shown that my reads are good, you're always going to be fighting from the back-foot. In a setup where no one is ever going to flip, tunneling the most likely townie to cause you trouble is not a bad idea. Once I established my reads and suggested my team, Blazinghand's attempt at discrediting me had no chance of succeeding except maybe convincing the two townies who weren't reading the thread properly.
By the time they allowed us to thoroughly establish the voting blocks by repeatedly suggesting new teams the scum just dug themselves a bigger hole. Kita's posting was uncharacteristically blatant. chaos13 rode the muddy waters along with the scum-aligned-townies, but as soon as VE's sense snapped in it was game over for scum. I think it's an absolutely terrifying position for scum to be in to have aligned themselves all against a strong town voting block. They need to make sure that they're on both sides of the argument.
Talking about town play. It was very rewarding to play in such a good town atmosphere. 4 out of the 6 townies quickly realized what was going on in the thread and continued to vote as a strong block until the game ended. I am no longer impressed by prplhz's strong analytical town play, he's quickly proving to be one of the best town players on TL in my opinion, so I've come to expect great things from him. More pleasantly surprising was Dirkzor's and Navillus's performance this game, they quickly established their innocence and the aligned themselves with the correct faction. Navillus needs to post more to be helpful, but the first step toward being a great townie is to know when to listen and what side to take. You don't have to be right, you just have to agree with the people who are right.
The two townies who didn't manage to figure out the game as fast as the other four might have been at a slight disadvantage from the beginning. Especially comparing a new player like Sentinel to other players like Dirk and Nav is maybe a bit unfair because it's easier for Dirk and Nav to know I'm right since they only have to agree with two reads, while Sentinel would have to accept three reads. That's just a harder thing to do.
VE is probably the most swingy player on TL, at his best he can smash down scum teams, bomb godfathers and has the invaluable ability to look ridiculously town when he is, and at his worst he ignores blatant information in the thread and aligns himself with scum. The latter is the VE that we saw this game. In the opening stages of the game he yayvoted two mafia infested teams, while shooting down two complete townie teams. If VE had shown up in good shape, scum would've been smashed ages ago, and I say this because I know he is capable of better performance than this.
VE's understanding later in the game was the nail in mafia's coffin. And despite him being as completely wrong as he was, he still maintained that ability to look very towny, and thus in a way contributed greatly to our victory.
Overall I'm very pleased with this game. This game is in many ways more rewarding to play than mafia, for both factions. I had a lot of fun and I'm sorry for once again calling everyone dumb, except of course when they were.
I am for the most part happy about my own performance this game. I did get a town team figured out very fast and I pushed it hard, revealing one scum to me in form of BH's ridiculous defense. When I started adding people to my list of townies I was never wrong, ending up with the 5 player block of prplhz, VE, Dirk and Nav.
I am slightly annoyed I didn't manage to convince town more easily. This game is a perfect example of a game where scum screws up a bit, but yet manages to confuse town for a long while because the leaders of town aren't doing a good enough job of convincing people, and part of town is not reading or understanding the thread properly.
Most importantly through, I thoroughly enjoy playing with everyone that played in this game. It made this game one of the more fun experiences I've had in mafia, believe it or not. chaos13 going afk was unfortunate but the game was figured out by then anyway.
I'm with Palmar - the atmosphere this game made it very enjoyable, and even our little deviations into img-land were fun and poigniant, not disruptive and derailing.
Problem with palmars tactic with "BH shouls have supported and kita/chaos should have opposed the first team" is that scum can't communicate. So yeah you're right palmar, but its hard to actually do. I feel that the scum team acted disorganized - mainly Chaos13 for obvious reasons - and thats why we caught on to them. How would the mechanics go if scum could communicate? Think it would ruin the balance?
Palmar I just want to thank you for the analysis, I know I've been pretty bad at this game since I started playing but it's very helpful to see clear analysis of the game and helpful individual points.
I'm really sorry about this guys. Real life just got to be too much for me and I wasn't even thinking about mafia. Time for me to take another break from here until I'm able to actually devote myself to a game.
If I had been at my best, I may have been able to get myself onto a team near the end, but it would have been very difficult, and probably impossible for us to get 2 spies in on the fourth mission.
It really, really sucks not being able to communicate with your teammates. I was trying to figure out a way I could organize something, but I couldn't come up with anything that wouldn't be blatantly obvious.
On March 08 2012 06:41 Dirkzor wrote: How would the mechanics go if scum could communicate? Think it would ruin the balance?
I am very curious about this... on the one hand, there being "no flips", aka no one dying is mafia-favored, so no scum communication balances that. But there are still the information of how many sabotages, and if the mission failed or not.
Have other forums tried playing resistance with scum communication?
On March 08 2012 11:21 chaos13 wrote: I'm really sorry about this guys. Real life just got to be too much for me and I wasn't even thinking about mafia. Time for me to take another break from here until I'm able to actually devote myself to a game.
If I had been at my best, I may have been able to get myself onto a team near the end, but it would have been very difficult, and probably impossible for us to get 2 spies in on the fourth mission.
It really, really sucks not being able to communicate with your teammates. I was trying to figure out a way I could organize something, but I couldn't come up with anything that wouldn't be blatantly obvious.
I don't think we should give up on the setup or implement scum communication just yet, remember, the last game was a steamroll in the other direction, we don't have sufficient data to call the setup unbalanced yet.
On March 08 2012 18:15 Palmar wrote: I don't think we should give up on the setup or implement scum communication just yet, remember, the last game was a steamroll in the other direction, we don't have sufficient data to call the setup unbalanced yet.
Well...I mean, a steamroll? I mean yeah, it was 0-3...but that last day I was onto yous guys.
No, the setup should stay the same. If you'd rather play mafia, that's fine, but this is Resistance and no scum communication is part of this game's charm.
On March 08 2012 18:15 Palmar wrote: I don't think we should give up on the setup or implement scum communication just yet, remember, the last game was a steamroll in the other direction, we don't have sufficient data to call the setup unbalanced yet.
Well...I mean, a steamroll? I mean yeah, it was 0-3...but that last day I was onto yous guys.
No, the setup should stay the same. If you'd rather play mafia, that's fine, but this is Resistance and no scum communication is part of this game's charm.
I think its also worth noting that the voting rules were better.this time around whichbmay have helped.town.
The real lesson here though is "Palmar always wins and Blazinghand always loses."
On March 08 2012 18:15 Palmar wrote: I don't think we should give up on the setup or implement scum communication just yet, remember, the last game was a steamroll in the other direction, we don't have sufficient data to call the setup unbalanced yet.
Well...I mean, a steamroll? I mean yeah, it was 0-3...but that last day I was onto yous guys.
No, the setup should stay the same. If you'd rather play mafia, that's fine, but this is Resistance and no scum communication is part of this game's charm.
I think its also worth noting that the voting rules were better.this time around whichbmay have helped.town.
The real lesson here though is "Palmar always wins and Blazinghand always loses."
In that case I'll shoot Palmar next time I'm scum in a game with him.
On March 08 2012 18:15 Palmar wrote: I don't think we should give up on the setup or implement scum communication just yet, remember, the last game was a steamroll in the other direction, we don't have sufficient data to call the setup unbalanced yet.
Well...I mean, a steamroll? I mean yeah, it was 0-3...but that last day I was onto yous guys.
No, the setup should stay the same. If you'd rather play mafia, that's fine, but this is Resistance and no scum communication is part of this game's charm.
I think its also worth noting that the voting rules were better.this time around whichbmay have helped.town.
The real lesson here though is "Palmar always wins and Blazinghand always loses."
In that case I'll shoot Palmar next time I'm scum in a game with him.
How time consuming was the hosting? I'm considering (co)hosting some resistance if it's not to hard on the host(s) and people want to play.. Seems fairly straight forward to the host?
Oh I remember these games. I think in the first one town derped, like, totally, and in the second they just happened to get 4 townies in the 1st mission or some shit like that I think.
Also I'm reminded that I've been here for like a year and a half and I've only played 9 games of mafia. So to compensate, next time you all decide to host one, I'm signing up for every slot and double my mafia experience through 2 straight weeks of playing with myself
On May 20 2013 05:57 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Goddamn I remember this one as being fun.
Also I'm reminded that I've been here for like a year and a half and I've only played 9 games of mafia. So to compensate, next time you all decide to host one, I'm signing up for every slot and double my mafia experience through 2 straight weeks of playing with myself
On May 20 2013 05:57 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Goddamn I remember this one as being fun.
Also I'm reminded that I've been here for like a year and a half and I've only played 9 games of mafia. So to compensate, next time you all decide to host one, I'm signing up for every slot and double my mafia experience through 2 straight weeks of playing with myself
EPT![[image loading]](http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/chuiu/TLmafia_new.png)
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I mean, not that it matters much - anyone nay-voting their own team has their own problems....but I'm just saying, I thought in the last game that was a given.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/39ua7.png)
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