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Purgatory Mafia
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 04 2012 23:40 Zephirdd wrote: hi, checking in. It's stupid to discuss angel/demon lynching, although it is better to have the AoD lynched first we can't just magically detect them. Scum is scum regardless of A/D alignment. Sage and Seer should not claim unless they have 2/3 scum nailed down that can be instantly lynched; Just make sure to hide breadcrumbs so we believe your claim should that occur. ...day1 is always boring. Just so you know, you should never believe an investigative claim because someone bread-crumbed it. There's no reason to believe it because of bread-crumbs, because there's no proof that they actually did what they bread-crumbed. Breadcrumbs are only useful when a player flips, because you know what role they actually are, and then you know that any breadcrumbs are likely to be sound. If you want a recent example of breadcrumbs killing the town, go read Mini Mafia X, where Wherebugsgo wrote jk three times in a post then claimed jailkeeper, and town believed him. The only person I think can legitimately breadcrumb and use that to support their claim in this game is the demonhunter, and only if they end up killing a complete innocent, or else it could be the acolyte. Also keep in mind that crumbs should be made before the corresponding day-post. On January 05 2012 03:02 Blazinghand wrote: Don't go lynching anyone but Bluelightz if you think he's a legit valid scum. It doesn't matter whether he's an angel or a demon or what. In fact, given that he was staggeringly bad in Student mafia (though he WAS a replacement) it might be good to kill him just because even if he is town he could be useless. I think we should lynch whoever is the scummiest. If Bluelightz feels scummy to you, put together a case on him and cast your vote like a man. If you think he's probably scummy, and that he'll contribute poorly (as he did in Student mafia), put your money where your mouth is. I can respect that. This is bad. Killing a useless townie is almost never worth it. A useless townie is still a townie, and they still provide us with a vote and count towards our win condition. It's always better to lynch scum, not lynch someone because he could be scum but it doesn't matter anyways because if he's town he's useless. In fact, I was leaning town on you at the beginning of the game, but now I think I'm going to have to re-evaluate that somewhat after your recent "case" on Bluelightz. Being bad doesn't make someone scum, so it seems weird that you'd try to attack him for being bad. There's been a lot of talk in the thread so far (though granted, most of it is based on mechanics), so who do you think is scummy? You don't make a case for why bluelightz is scum, just for why he hasn't done anything productive yet. Regarding Lynch all Lurkers: If you want to pursue this, you need to make the distinction between lurkers and inactives. Someone who hasn't posted all day cycles is not a lurker. They are an inactive. A lurker is someone who comes in, makes a useless post to appease everyone, and then leaves again, continuing this as necessary to keep pressure off themselves. So, even if you want to lynch all lurkers, you still have to put a modicum of effort into it, to try to figure out who's actually trying to lurk or not. Scum are very likely to be actively lurking if they're lurking. That is, they are reading the thread, and keeping up with new posts and developments while discussing with their scumbuddies, but aren't actually posting in the thread. These are sometimes easy to find, because when pressured, they'll show up nearly immediately to defend themselves before going back to lurking. So, for anyone who wants to lynch all lurkers, are you ready to make the distinction between lurking and being inactive? Someone already brought this up somewhat, when they asked what keeps scum from just staying slightly more active than the most inactive townie, and this is where the distinction comes in. Think about it. Regarding set-up: In this game, it feels like the town roles can be used in very versatile ways that people aren't really touching on. For example, the demon-hunter is a vigi for demons, but they can also serve as a detective for angels. There is nothing that protects from attacks besides going to purgatory, so if the demonhunter's target lives without going to purgatory, then they're an angel. Same thing with the sage. Many people are focusing on the cleansing aspect of the role, but not on the investigative powers. This ties in with the corrupted players as well. While the demons want to corrupt as many townspeople as they can, this also makes it more dangerous for them, as they essentially introduce demon detectives into the game. What I think a decent strategy would be, for as long as the sage remains alive, is to have corrupted players claim the day after being corrupted, along with their result. This means that as long as we keep the sage alive, the number of corrupted players will always remain at, or below, 1. Obviously, we shouldn't set this in stone, as we should wait until day 3 and see if the sage is still alive, along with the acolyte. From my understanding, demons can't corrupt until night 2, which means that day 3 is the earliest that we have to worry about the votes in the lynch. This means that as town, we should try to play as aggressively as we can on the first two days, when there will be the least confusion and complexity. Ideally, we will be able to kill some sort of angel, and optimally the concealer (This forces the demons to choose between corrupting or using their actions, and gets rid of a powerful anti-town ability). We also have to keep in mind that in this game, until one faction is eliminated completely, no one can be confirmed innocent. If it comes to light that you aren't a demon, or aren't an angel, and try to use that as proof that you are town, I'll be mad and think you're scum. I think that early in the game, town will be taking the brunt of the offensive abilities of the angels and demons. However, as the game goes on longer, they will be forced to fight each-other. If the angels only focus on killing the town, the demons will simply be able to lynch them once a day later on, and eliminate their KP to win. When the demons corrupt a player and it is successful, they know this player is town, and so that reduces the pool of player with the angels in it. So, the angels can't let the demons reach this stage of the game, and must use their KP on them as early as possible to reduce this threat. As well, the demons should be helping to find angels to lynch, as it reduces the possible KP against them, keeps the lynch off them, and also makes them less likely to be targeted for investigation or demon-hunter KP, as they look more "pro-town". In fact, I think the best angel strategy would be to use their acolyte to try to target demons, as that will either kill their competition, or let them know who's a townie, and thus who's dangerous. Any information disadvantages we may incur from the AoD and the Concealer also apply to the other faction, and they should be aware of this as well. Thus, they want to try to eliminate their counterpart's ability to hide information, as this will allow them to maintain perfect information in the game. This also ties into the above paragraph. About voting: Don't Hammer. While we don't have to worry about corruption until day three, we should still be careful of keeping the lynch under our control. Always check the vote-count before voting, and always vote in the thread along with your PM to ZBot, so that we can see when you voted, as well as who you voted for, before Zbot the count. No one should be hammering a lynch until later in the day if we can help it, as this will give us the most time for discussion and information gathering. Those are my thoughts so far after reading the set-up again, and through the thread once. I'm going away for a little bit, but I'll read through the thread again and be back later. TL;DR It's a wall of text that you should read, because I'm not going to spam five posts so that it looks more easy to read. That's why I divided it. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Living useless townies are better than dead useless townies, especially when we mislynch them. When I read that, I thought you were implying that you would be fine lynching him, even if he flipped town, because he's useless. That also implies you aren't sure of your read, or that you're scummy, because it's covering for the potentiality that he flips town and tries to defend against it preemptively. Feel free to keep the pressure on him, though, and force him to contribute. I'm not saying unvote him, I just wanted to make a point that lynching greens because they're useless isn't generally beneficial for town. The same thing ties in with voting for inactives because they're inactive, especially if you read them as green, which is part of the discussion on Lynch all Lurkers. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 05 2012 07:31 Blazinghand wrote: There's also a way for greens to be anti-town, you know-- "non-contributing" can actually be worse then "useless" because it provides cover for reds to hide. Look, if I think a guy is anti-town I'm gonna try to lynch him. If he flips green, then so be it. If I could lynch a red guy instead I would gladly do that, but I really don't know until i see the color of his blood, do I? Bluelightz deserves the case I have against him and deserves my vote. And if he fails to contribute and there are no other scum reads, and all he's doing is stopping by every now and then to say "brb" and generally confuse our blues, then he also deserves to die. Greens can be anti-town, but if you read them as green, you don't lynch them. If they're non-contributing, then you pressure them to contribute, like you're trying to do by voting Bluelightz. Then they should be forced to do something, and give you information from which to get a better read. We're in agreement about that. However, you have to do this with multiple players, because you still have to separate the greens from whatever scum might be hiding among them. In your case, you didn't sound like you really thought that he was scum, just that he was not contributing. That might be what's throwing me off about you, as in my experience, if someone wants to pressure someone to contribute, they just vote them, and ask them to contribute, not make a case and call them maybe scum maybe town and then say we should kill them either way. I'll help pressure, but I'm not going to vote him now, as he claims he went to bed two hours ago. If he's not back and posting by tonight, I'll vote him, until he gives us something. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
First, we aren't lynching Bluelightz today. Reading through his posts, I'm getting a heavy new-town vibe from him. After he got called out, and started posting, this is how I've read him. Some people are saying that his posts sound like he has a scum-team behind him, but honestly, I don't think any scum team would let him post some of the things he did. As well, being calm when tunneled is not a scum tell in my opinion, in fact it's probably the opposite. A townie knows he is innocent, while a scum knows he is guilty. So, if you're being tunneled by someone, in which case do you think you'd be more nervous? When you know the person tunneling you is wrong, or when you know the person tunneling you is correct in their read? That's without even considering that he claims to have been gone during long periods in which he was supposed to be pressured. So, instead, I present to you all: Palmar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=87086 Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. For example, take this post: On January 05 2012 20:21 Palmar wrote: You see, I don't disagree with the notion that lynching Bluelightz is bad, I'm just not sure how well I like your reasons for it. I actually think it's unlikely he's scum, not based on the amount he posted, but rather based on what he has posted. I didn't actually want to post yesterday, the time I had to play mafia I spent finishing up resistance, decided to rather just read the thread this morning. It's interesting that you seem to want to paint the picture that I'm always active and useful in the first part of day 1, when you know from experience that I do often ignore the initial discussion. Do you have a specific reason for this? between risk.nuke and Grackaroni, I'd much rather have a look at Grack, since I'm actually willing to wait for risk's initial contribution. I would actually have no problem with lynching people like RoL or Jackal day 1. It's a post that's all over the place, and it's a post that contains no solid reads except that at that time, he didn't think that Bluelightz was necessarily scum. However, against everyone else, he doesn't provide any solid accusation. He says he wants to look at Grack, and that he would be fine lynching "people like RoL or Jackal". Notice that he doesn't actually say that he'd be fine lynching Jackal or RoL, just people like them, which makes what he said entirely non-committal. It's almost the same thing as saying he wants to lynch lurking vets without calling any out. In his following posts, he has still yet to provide us with any scum reads, or to even pressure anyone. All he gives us are a couple of town reads and questions for syllo. Next, is his altercation with Bluelightz, which I find very odd. Earlier, Palmar noted that he thought "it's unlikely he's scum", but then he felt the need to try to pressure him. So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Pressuring Bluelightz to take a stance was fine, but the way in which Palmar did it was odd. Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). Also, notice that Palmar is pressuring Bluelightz for giving a list of null and green reads, when this is the exact same thing Palmar has done up to this point in the game. It's hypocritical. So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Instead, he acts rather timidly compared to the pro-town Palmar I know. He doesn't even end up answering his own question afterwards, even when asked to, refusing yet again to take a stance on scum. So, I think Palmar is scum for his wishy-washiness, failure to provide any scum-reads, and for his timid posting and interactions. This is doubly condemning in the light of his normal town play, which is the complete opposite of what we see here. This is our Day 1 Lynch. ##Vote: Palmar | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Until the AoD is killed, we will be at a disadvantage compared to both scum factions with regards to information, and we cannot base any of our play around the use of power-roles which may or may not still be alive. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 06 2012 09:16 Erandorr wrote: Ya I probably should post sometime soon but I am really tired and want to sleep soon. If anyone has any question for me just go ahead, I will provide content of my own tomorrow. What are your scum reads? What do you think of Palmar? Are you going to vote? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 06 2012 09:53 Blazinghand wrote: So, our chief reasoning for Palmar being scum is his relative inactivity? Palmar is an aggressive scumhunter D1 whenever he is town, and today he has been largely unaggressive and not scumhunting on par with his usual-- as though he's holding something back. Is this an accurate characterization of the Palmar case? Not inactivity for me. He's not being his normal aggressive self, but beyond that, he's been very timid in his posting, both in tone and content, and he has yet to actually push a scum read in the thread while trying to push around a relatively new player for doing the same thing. Beyond that, go read my case. Vote for him if you agree, he's scum. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 06 2012 12:26 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @Grackaroni: + Show Spoiler + On January 06 2012 09:06 Grackaroni wrote: That's basically one of the reasons I'm suspicious. You post a lot at the start and then when scumhunting begins you disappear, not that you didn't scumhunt at the start. The only meta I got from you was that you seemed like somebody who posted a lot and spent a lot of time scumhunting in that game. I should have looked into more recent games but what's wrong with letting me think that of you? the first part of your quote strikes me the wrong way because I get the feeling that you just wanted to downplay my abilities, you don't care if I accuse you and think my opinion should be worth less than a veteran like syllogism. You've done nothing to change my mind, the only person you call scummy is me and your reasoning is that you think my case against you is shitty + you add in my opinion of bluelightz which I don't think you would have even mentioned if I didn't accuse you. Next you make some posts about people lurking and leave. You haven't been scumhunting but you keep giving me reasons to believe that you have lots of time to do so : [previous game with lots of scumhunting and posting, early signup, post a lot on strategies at the start of the game (early to find out it started too) quick to see my post and has time to defend yourself] You're definitely holding back in your posting. Yes, I give your opinion less weight than I give syllo's. If you want to change that, be correct as often as he is over the course of many games. I am often around, as I work from a computer all day, but my availability fluctuates. I found out about this game through a PM for early signups from Zona, so yes I found out about it pretty early, I don't see what that has to do with anything. If you check when I usually start posting during the day, you will find that it is often around the time you posted your accusations against me. I am not holding back in my posts, I just like to get at least something from everyone before I really start making judgements. If you actually cared, you could easily look up my more recent play and you'd find that I tend to ask a lot of questions during games and I don't usually do a ton of case-building day 1 and realize your meta-argument is useless. If you think inactivity is a scum tell for me, be sure to read day 1 of election mafia. I did roughly nothing, I was town. Basically what I am trying to say is, you are wasting time/effort tunneling me and I'd appreciate it if you put in the effort needed to realize that. Speaking of asking questions, you ignored my question regarding bluelightz. Anyway, on to more useful topics. Re: Palmar I agree that his lack of activity is suspicious and rather out of the ordinary for him, but I am wondering if it is worthwhile to risk lynching a potentially very strong scum-hunter on the grounds of not caring this early into the game. I know of at least one other game where he didn't take day 1 very seriously (XVIII I think it was?). If that is the only one, than obviously his play so far is more damning than if he does this every so often. If any of the vets could fill me in on whether or not he has messed around day 1 in other games as well it would be appreciated. I'd also like to hear syllo's opinion on the matter, since if I am not mistaken syllo is usually quite good at reading Palmar. (If I am mistaken, feel free to correct me) @Refallen You seem more aggressive/bold in your defense than the past two games of yours that I just took a quick look back at. Have any explanation in particular for that? RE: Palmar That's never a good reason to keep a player you think is scummy alive. I've seen way too many towns fold into the idea that if a person is a vet or strong player, we ought to keep them alive until the endgame. This type of thinking is dangerous, because it lets them live without doing anything if they're scum, and then come in again later in the game and exert control over a weakened town. If you think someone is scum, you lynch them. Also, my reason for lynching Palmar is, again, not because of his activity or lack thereof, it's about his behaviour. Even though his behaviour is made even worse by his activity, in the end, it still comes down to how he acts, and what he says. On January 06 2012 12:34 Zephirdd wrote: Bluelightz, if you havent got your clue from our previous posts, a full null list is useless. Don't do it. If you want to post a list, post a list of players you think are scum, not a read on every single player. Keep these to yourself, because they don't help at all. I agree that Palmar looks waaay too calm, too passive if you want. That's not the usual dayvig-claiming Palmar that I'm used to, not the usual president-Palmar I'm used to. And certainly not the aggressive town Palmar I'm used to. The only reason I see for a town Palmar to do that is that he would want to avoid getting shot n1, but any decent scum team will shoot him n1 regardless unless he is actually disruptive(which he is pretty capable of being, tbh). Either way, this Palmar is too passive. Ten are required for a lynch. Depending on reactions tomorrow I'll vote him. However, Refallen. Care to elaborate the connection between Palmar flipping red and Tyrran becoming a target? There are three KP that can be aimed in this game. Your argument only holds for the two Angel KP. However, this is a terrible way to play as town, unless there is a specific reason to, as if a scum team is afraid of you, they will shoot you regardless, or they might think your behaviour is indicative of being a power role, in which case they will shoot you as well. The best way for every player to act, is like a vanilla townie, unless you want to draw a hit for some reason. Secondly, there's a demon-hunter KP, so if Palmar is trying to avoid Angel KP, doing it in that way makes it more likely to be hit by the town KP for being scummy. Anyways, I don't really believe it, but I want to point it out to you, so you can see that that argument doesn't hold. Don't make excuses for Palmar's scummy behaviour. If he's acting scummy, the most reasonable explanation is that he is scum, so you shouldn't try to make excuses for why he might do the same thing as town, especially if they don't actually hold up to scrutiny. Also, I would like nothing more than to avoid a no-lynch today. Like I said before, we'll be lucky if we get any information from the next day post besides the demon-hunters' hit, unless the acolyte manages to hit a demon. So, it's imperative that we actually follow through with our suspicions. I believe Palmar is scum, so I'm going to do my best to assure he is lynched. We can't sit around and wait, because the longer we do so, the weaker the town becomes until we manage to reduce or eliminate one or both of the scum factions. So, if you're town, you better be doing your best to vote for scum. Hopefully you'll vote for Palmar. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 06 2012 14:20 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @Wiggles I am not saying keep him alive until late game. As stated, I know of at least one game he was in recently where he did basically nothing day 1. Past day 1 is quite a different story. A day 2 useless Palmar is definitely a scum Palmar. Also, I thought we had only 72 hours, but apparently we have 91 hours day 1. That makes me feel a bit better about establishing whether or not Palmar will be useful this game before the lynch occurs, less chance of being able to account for his lack of interest solely due to some RL issue coming up. But, as I stated: So a decent way to solidify my stance on him would be by answering that question if you could. As far as I remember, I have not seen him play a game as town where he has not played aggressively and forcefully, starting day 1. Every game I've played with him, he's either called someone out quickly, been quick to shoot down bad play, or tunneled someone into the ground if he's been town. This is not the Palmar I'm used to playing with as town. Also keep in mind, that most games only have 48 hour days, and he has already spent more than that time continuing to act the way he has. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Pressure votes are useless, that's dumb as shit Wiggles. I have a feeling Bluelightz is scum, but until I actually have time to create a case to prove it, the vote doesn't actually do anything because it's not backed up with anything. Actually, I invite anyone in this thread to read the entire exchange, I'll provide a link: And see if they get the same read on this as Wiggles. He accuses me of not attacking bad posts, when I created the entire scenario just to drag up an answer from Bluelightz, he accuses me of not pressuring.... well, read the next 2 pages, and see what conclusion you come to. I made a mistake with the thing with Bluelightz, my bad, but still, his question was dumb, and detracted from the thread. He should know that making hypotheticals is not preferable to just asking what you really mean. As well, he didn't put pressure on Bluelightz, because he had nothing substantial to put pressure on him with. He didn't vote him, he didn't even say he was scum, just made allusions to it. Also, Palmar did not attack bad posts, he did not play aggressively, and he acted incredibly timid. This is enough for me to get a scum vibe off many people, but because it's Palmar, it becomes even worse, so please stop saying my case is entirely meta. It's based off Palmar's behavior, and also his behaviour in comparison to normal. Have you noticed that he has still yet to do anything useful? When I'm scum, I love nothing more than for someone to accuse me of something or start an argument, because it gives me something to argue against to look like I'm contributing. Palmar's wall of text is a defense of himself that's longer than the original case, with two lines tacked onto the end where he OMGUS's me. It provides nothing in the way of useful content. According to Palmar, my case is terrible. So, if it is terrible, why go to such effort to try to refute it? If it's terrible, then it shouldn't pick up steam, so he shouldn't be scared of it. If it's terrible, why is he so worried about it that he has to make a post longer than the analysis itself defending against it? It screams that Palmar is self-aware and anxious. It shows us that he's worried about being called scum, and worried that he might be lynched. A townie wouldn't be that worried, because he knows the analysis is wrong, and if he thinks it's terrible as well, he should be even less worried. Also notice that after being called out for not being aggressive, and not calling out bad play, he comes back and makes these posts: + Show Spoiler + On January 06 2012 19:41 Palmar wrote: I think he's too much of an asshole to flip scum. In addition, he called me the best player in the game, so that's townie points. On January 06 2012 20:16 Palmar wrote: That's just straight up wrong Cwave, not sure what it makes you. Syllogism has provided arguments as for why he thinks risk.nuke is scum, and is pushing me to agree with him. On January 06 2012 22:52 Palmar wrote: how about you do something useful layabout. If you're scum, you already know I'm not, and if you're town, you've just reached the correct conclusion. What do you think about my case against mr. wiggles? Can you explain further why you want to lynch grackaroni (I agree that his play is just... derp, so far, but why do you think so?) On January 06 2012 22:54 Palmar wrote: And do you think that's productive? Are you town? Do you think you're helping town progress right now? On January 06 2012 23:50 Palmar wrote: risk, get in here and explain your plan. It better not be dumb. On January 07 2012 00:14 Palmar wrote: if he is carefully reading the thread, how come he falsely accused me of not asking bluelightz who he wanted to lynch? Are you not carefully reading the thread? Which are more in-line with what Town Palmar does. However, none of them do anything useful. They're either pointless questions, or attempts to look aggressive. None of them have the potential to produce useful information, and none of them will help lead us to scum. Because they do nothing useful, it leads me to believe that he simply made them to draw suspicion off of himself. Also compare these posts to the ones he made in the first 48 hours, and you should also be able to see the giant change in tone, almost like he's overcompensating. Next look at how Palmar still posts when talking to syllogism: + Show Spoiler + On January 06 2012 20:08 Palmar wrote: I kinda lean town-ish on you. I'm not sure though, at least you look useful for now. If you're scum, you've at least stepped it up since last game. (for those that don't know I was mafia traitor, and since syllo was so obvious scum day 1, my breadcrumb to the mafia was simply to call syllogism obvious town). Since I've only played with you as scum once where I haven't known you're scum, and figured it out in like half a day, I'm just gonna assume you're town for now. I do care, I was asking you to point out the meta, not the stuff in this thread, I guess I can go to election mafia and read his day 1 later. The read I had on him was "worthless, unsure it makes him scum". I was hoping you'd explain the meta so I don't have to think. The particular response you linked is correct and I agree with what risk.nuke is saying (there is actually no need to commit to a lynch) however, it's useless if he himself doesn't actually generate any discussion which he hasn't done. In addition, he claims to have had some sort of a plan? agenda? which is at best terrible, at worst scummy. There seems to actually be nothing to that plan. I'd like to hear him at least explain what the hell he was hoping to achieve by it. The reason I'm a bit on the fence about him is this: It's just... cocky enough to probably not be scummy. I guess I wouldn't mind him being shot. Did you actually read the parts where wiggles says things that are straight up wrong? On January 06 2012 20:30 Palmar wrote: as I said, not in the mood to read election mafia until later. Seeing as I think you're town and you seem pretty convinced in this read I'd probably support it down the line, but I simply think it's more likely wiggles will flip scum. Assume wiggles is already dead and I'd be more interested. don't try to meta me is certainly something scum would rather say than town, however in the context, it's basically null. Why are you forcing this so hard? If you think I'm town, and are town yourself, you know I will go find out if what you say is true, and you know that I do listen to you. You also know that I'm not just going to flop on something as solid as the case against wiggles. Do you actually think Wiggles says things that are factually wrong against a townie he knows is going to be valuable as town to attempt to get him lynched on day 1? No matter how you look at it Wiggles's play is completely anti-town, the only question is if that makes him scum (I guess the same goes for risk.nuke). Just convince other people, if people actually think your case against risk.nuke is stronger than mine against wiggles, they will vote it, and I will probably support it unless I find any damning evidence otherwise. None of the things I mentioned in risk's favor make him town, they just are kinda off as scum too. He still maintains the same careful and timid posting that he exhibited in the first 48 hours. He's basically paying lip service to syllogism to keep him off his back, while doing nothing else of value in the thread. Syllogism is one of the other players that would actually be able to lead a lynch on Palmar, so he's being careful not to disturb him, and to buddy up to him as much as he can. So, in conclusion, the next part of Palmar's play:
This guy keeps digging himself deeper and deeper with his attempts to avoid the lynch. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On January 07 2012 05:51 syllogism wrote: Wiggles what do you think about Erandorr and Risk nuke and don't you think that in a 6 scum game it would be safer play to lynch one of them or Tyrran as I would estimate that they are at least as likely to flip scum and are going to be considerably more worthless even if we happen to be wrong. I'm going out to eat in about 5 minutes. When I get back, I'll read through all their filters and give you my thoughts. The thing about lynching Palmar though, is that not many people here are going to be willing to lynch him later in the game. A lot of these newer players seem very reticent to lynch him, and I'm not sure why. They're coming up with excuses for his bad play, and trying to come up with flimsy excuses to not lynch Palmar. If I die, you die, or Jackal dies, not many people here would be willing to actually push a lynch on Palmar. They'll probably just sheep him to the victory of whatever scum faction he belongs to. Anyways, I'll be back later. | ||
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On January 07 2012 05:51 syllogism wrote: Wiggles what do you think about Erandorr and Risk nuke and don't you think that in a 6 scum game it would be safer play to lynch one of them or Tyrran as I would estimate that they are at least as likely to flip scum and are going to be considerably more worthless even if we happen to be wrong. Ugh, sorry this took so long. I had it half written, when my brother conned me into going with him to buy a desk, but none of the stores we went to had it so it ended up taking us 5 hours before we finally found it. -__- Tyrran: He started out the game with very general advice. This seems weird, but it might be due to the mini games, in which I've seen new players do that to each other. Still something to note though, as scum like to use it to look like they're contributing. Compared to steamship that you linked, he is much more careful and timid in this game. In steamship, just reading through his early posts, he didn't seem scared to call people out and ask direct questions. In that game, he was vanilla, however, so there could be something to do with the set-up contributing to his timidness (less likely because he talks about the set-up in this game), or he's some kind of power role. Verdict: Scummy. Not as direct as his last game, and timid. However, I'm willing to give him slightly more time to see if he starts to contribute. Might be a good vig shot night 2. Does anyone have a game in which Tyrran rolled scum that I can read? @Tyrran, what do you think of the accusations against you? Who do you want to lynch? Erandorr: There's not much to go on here, as he hasn't posted much, and half of it is spam. Something weird is this post: On January 07 2012 02:11 Erandorr wrote: Why do you think Risk is scummiest and not Tyrran/me? If I am not mistaken then Syllos reasons to rather lynch Palmar have very little to do with the arguments Wiggles brought forward. Ya, mistake on my side, sorry. Where he asks why Dirkzor doesn't find him scummy. This sets off some warning bells, because I don't see a reason for a townie to ever ask someone why they don't think they're scummy. Hopefully, it should be a given, but I see this being used as scum to draw out someone to explain why they're not scummy. My opinion, anyways. Others say he has a meta of lurking as scum, which counts against him as well, since he seems to have the time to make excuses or spam, but not to give his thoughts. Verdict: Useless, and the post I linked makes me wary. Couple that with the meta others are supplying, and there's a decent chance of him being scum. risk.nuke: The first thing I notice is that he seems irrationally defensive. Syllogism calls him out, and he seems to get very defensive, very quickly. Actually, a fair portion of his posts are all in response to being called out. Something funny I noted is that he called out xsksc for meta reasons, and then becomes angry at Syllogism for doing the same to him. Something else, in comparison to Steamship, which others have brought up (I read his day 1 posts), is that in that game, he was rather free with his votes, using them to pressure and to scumhunt. In this game, after 48 hours, he has yet to vote, and gets mad at Syllo when he brings this up as well. Also odd, is that he says, "there are two days left why woudl I commit to lynching this soon", which seems very odd, as it's possible to change your vote, and to change your mind. It seems like an easy way to misrepresent what has been said and slip out of being held accountable. Verdict: Another one with a decent chance of being scum. Overall, I just get a bad vibe from him, and his posting seems scummy. Between lynching risk.nuke and Erandorr, I'd probably choose risk.nuke right now, but they're fairly close. As well, there's the possibility of both Erandorr and risk.nuke being scum, in which case, they're most likely on different scum-teams. @Syllo: What do you think of Palmar right now? Do you actually think that one of these three have a much higher chance of flipping scum than him? Are you prepared to lynch Palmar if he continues to act scummy? Of these three, which do you want to push a lynch on, if you choose to do so? @Bluelightz: You had suspicion on you early in the game, but after that it's felt like you've disappeared. What are your thoughts right now? Who do you want to lynch? P.S. RoL is a good shot for the Demon-hunter right now, as well as the Acolyte (If he's not on your team, that is). | ||
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"I'll comment on the situation and see how people respond". | ||
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##Vote: risk.nuke | ||
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On January 08 2012 07:42 risk.nuke wrote: Incoming mislynch. Fools... Why don't you do something to give me a reason to think you're town, then? | ||
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On January 08 2012 08:02 risk.nuke wrote: The one fucking thing that should make you realise what a bad lynch I am is how fucking easily I'm getting bandwagon-sheeped to the block. Layabout is really the only one who's tried to write some reasoning, even though it's really really bad reasoning that was all it took because with that and ridiculous meta-claims I'm free to sheep, you don't need to state why I'm scummy, hell this is a bandwagon the more the merrier right. What information will you get when I flip town? Squat. There's two scum-teams, so bandwagons don't mean a ton in this game as it's possible for both scum-teams to bandwagon and I'm not sure how much one would like to stick their neck out on day 1, especially if you end up flipping Demon. Here's a couple questions, because you ignored my last one. What's the difference between what you did, and what syllogism did, in regards to posting things and looking for reactions? Who would you rather lynch, and if you flip town, who do you think the demon hunter/acolyte should target as scum? | ||
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The first thing I notice is that he seems irrationally defensive. Syllogism calls him out, and he seems to get very defensive, very quickly. Actually, a fair portion of his posts are all in response to being called out. Something funny I noted is that he called out xsksc for meta reasons, and then becomes angry at Syllogism for doing the same to him. Something else, in comparison to Steamship, which others have brought up (I read his day 1 posts), is that in that game, he was rather free with his votes, using them to pressure and to scumhunt. In this game, after 48 hours, he has yet to vote, and gets mad at Syllo when he brings this up as well. Also odd, is that he says, "there are two days left why woudl I commit to lynching this soon", which seems very odd, as it's possible to change your vote, and to change your mind. It seems like an easy way to misrepresent what has been said and slip out of being held accountable. What do you think of this? The only meta in it, is that you were more free with your vote in steamship. | ||
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I don't want a no-lynch. | ||
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RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. | ||
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On January 08 2012 09:41 risk.nuke wrote: whew, I'm so god damn relived right now That typo is actually kind've funny. | ||
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On January 08 2012 09:43 Refallen wrote: Risk if you're some kind of role you should claim, just pointing ouy Why are you role-fishing? | ||
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On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. It does end at 8:00, but it's instant majority. Day ends as soon as majority is reached, whenever that is. | ||
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Also, the AoD either didn't hit, or it's one of HoD or syllo. Acolyte missed. All people sent to purgatory are now targets of the channeler. | ||
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On January 09 2012 10:41 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Ah man, who will I lynch today now? Also, the AoD either didn't hit, or it's one of HoD or syllo. Acolyte missed. All people sent to purgatory are now targets of the channeler. Or acolyte/AoD hit one of Syllo/HoD, forgot about the protection part of purgatory for a second. Those are quick conclusions I'm drawing from the flip. I'm happy the demons lost their RB power, but it would have been nice if Palmar was the concealer. I'm going to go back and read with how people acted towards him. | ||
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@Jackal: Why do you think it's more likely the town channeler would have used his ability on HoD and not Syllo? | ||
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I was basically going to post something like: RoL:
On January 10 2012 08:29 layabout wrote: Essentially, If he believes his plan is good for town then regardless of whether it is good or bad it is not scummy to suggest the plan. If he believes his plan is bad for town, then it follows that it is scummy. This is a very weak criticism, as RoL will always say that he thought his plan was good for town, especially if he is scum. What you're saying only holds under the assumption he is town, and we can all know he is town, which we obviously don't. Pushing a bad plan doesn't automatically make you scum, but you have to look at the plan, the player, and how they're pushing it. There's also the difference between a bad plan, and an anti-town plan. A bad plan just won't work, an anti-town plan will hurt the town. | ||
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On January 11 2012 16:37 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: As a side note, I read a few of the tyrran analysis and I found them well reasoned, I will try to give my own thoughts on it tomorrow. On January 12 2012 17:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So what happened to this?just got home, F5'd and saw the lynch. I will get out my analysis before the day post tomorrow, hopefully I can get some done before work tomorrow, but if not after 6pm EST I will be home trying to get some shit done. On an unrelated note, if anyone likes medieval art and lives around NYC, fort tryson has a pretty cool renaissance collection that I checked out today. It's called The Cloisters and going to it gives you admittance to MET as well during the same day. Remember way back at the start of the game, where I made a distinction between inactives and lurkers? A lurker is someone who comes in, makes a useless post to appease everyone, and then leaves again, continuing this as necessary to keep pressure off themselves. Who does this sound like? So far, RoL has yet to contribute any original analysis, or even thoughts, on other players. So far he's said he agrees with analysis on Erandorr, Tyrran, and risk.nuke, but he doesn't actually give any additional reasons for thinking they're scummy (except one for risk.nuke, and that was his only reason). Beyond that, it seems like he doesn't say anything about any other player. Regarding his plan. For me, it seems like he never cared much about it. This might sound weird, because most of his posts are about it, but he isn't actually pushing people to put it into action. He argues often about its merits, but he's not actually trying very hard (or at least exerting the same effort) to implement it. This is weird, for someone most of the town is convinced believes strongly in his plan. So, RoL continues to make excuses. He continues to not talk about other players in the game. He focuses on a plan that he doesn't actually push to get put into action.These don't exactly scream town to me. Once again, a good shot or check for tonight. | ||
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On January 13 2012 04:43 Dirkzor wrote: You kinda pointed out that the time to roleclaim was now during the night. What i meant was that it doesn't matter if we roleclaimed on day 2 or night 2. The difference is that it would have been better to roleclaim day 2 so we had an extra lynch. And he stopped pushing for the plan when almost everyone said it was a bad idea. Yeah it is a problem if only VT claimed. That would have been bad. But people aren't stupid, so unless town agreed-ish to do this no one would claim unless they were/are morons. Risk claimed, and i think he did so partly for the reason he wrote and partly because he know if was a potential lynch target. Everyone else would not have claimed unless town agreed to do so. So yes the idea to make VT claim was faulty by it self, but the logic i just pointed out would have been made by anyone with half a brain. So thats why i think its unlikely he proposed his plan to deliberatly pull out VT's. RoL claimed VT with his post starting the plan, or did you ignore this? Does that make him a moron in your eyes? Also, there's still no reason for VT's to claim, why would there be? It just spams up the thread, adds nothing to it, and opens the possibility of Blues fake-claiming, which according to the plan itself, is bad. Here's a question for everyone who seems reticent to lynch/kill RoL: Why do you want to keep him alive? If you say because he's a good player, that's a terrible reason. You don't keep people alive because of their opportunity values, especially when their posting indicates they don't care about the town, and they have done nothing to prove their worth in this game. If you say it's because you think there's better people to lynch, that's a terrible reason as well, because then you shouldn't want to keep RoL alive, you should just want to kill him after your other targets. If you think there's a better lynch, then push it, but it doesn't mean that you have to defend other lynch targets, unless you think they are town. Do you think he's town? Then answer this question: Why? Give me a complete answer too, and know that making a plan, halfheartedly pushing it, and doing nothing else isn't pro-town. @Jackal: What do you think of RoL's play so far? | ||
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On January 13 2012 02:38 layabout wrote: Wiggles why did you just publicly announce that you think it would be good to check or shoot RibirthOfLeGenD? and everyone else what's with the inactivity? Because I want him shot tonight by the DH. He probably won't flip, though, as I get the feeling he's an angel more than a demon, so the seer can potentially check him as well. It also solves the problem of having to convince people to lynch him if he flips demon, as most people seem very reluctant to push anyone who they see as a "vet". @Blazinghand, you still haven't responded to the contradiction that Syllogism pointed out in your posting. Do so. | ||
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HoD claimed he has limited time, and then when syllo asked him a question, he instantly showed up. Do you have anything else to say, RoL? If the DH shoots you, you might not be able to get your analysis out. Or maybe you aren't worried? | ||
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On January 22 2012 02:16 layabout wrote: @ Zephird the post was a monty python reference, risk.nuke, dirkzor and i already went through this here and here after the post that can be found here. If you want to look it up click here. Which leads me to my main problem this game: A large number of people clearly were not reading the thread!. It felt like town players were really not making themselves useful or trying to catch scum. I think that Town should have lost but they got lucky with the actions of power roles.
The case on RoL (at least in general, I don't particularly remember all the details of BH's PbP) was sound, in my opinion. On January 22 2012 02:57 layabout wrote: I think that most of the criticisms were weak and that many people showed that they did not fully understand the plan. I think that RoL's responses were actually much stronger than the criticisms. I think that town players, are entirely capable of coming up with or pushing plans that are bad for town. I think that we could not have made a reliable judgement concerning how good/bad RoL thought his plan was for town, since he was out-arguing his critics and trying to push the plan to convince us to follow it (this would make sense for a player of either alignment) Since we could not reliably judge whether or not he was trying to manipulate or help us i think that we could not use his plan as the basis for calling him scum. A lot of town players made bad criticisms of RoL's plan, because they either missed part when reading it, or didn't understand the game set-up. That made it easy for him to defend his plan and make it look good, but really it didn't do much to strengthen the validity of the plan, as the criticisms didn't really point out actual flaws in the plan that needed to be defended against. Again, I want to make a distinction between a plan just being bad, and a plan being anti-town. RoL's plan seemed designed in a way that was meant to hurt the town. Also, for me, his plan was in no way the basis for thinking he was scum. It was just icing on the cake, that he would come back from 4 days of lurking, to push a plan that is not clearly in the best interests of the town. It would have been much better to just scum-hunt at that point, and do something useful, if you were town. On January 22 2012 03:35 Grackaroni wrote: I can tell you right now that RoL thought that his plan could be good for both Town or Angels depending on luck, but primarily fucked over demons. It could have allowed us to get some easy blue shots off but if the channeler saves people now you have a confirmed voting block. This is why I considered RoL's plan bad for town. I didn't feel like going into lots of detail about it during the game, because it was clear it wasn't going to be implemented. It's bad for town, because it relies on the town using their blue roles effectively, versus the angels using their roles effectively. It comes down to power roles, which I personally hate. Now, if you compare them, it's easy to see that there's a much better chance of the angels winning out in that war. Each blue is by himself, and has to think by himself. On the contrary, the angels have the ability to privately coordinate their actions, so it makes it easier for them, and they now have a pool of players in which they can essentially double their KP, or at least make it a lot more effective. So, just in the battle of the roles, it's somewhat in favour of the angels. Next, for the town to win in that situation, it relies on the town having strong scumhunting, and being very accurate with their lynches, because you cannot assume that their investigative and KP roles will survive for long. Looking at day 1, you could see that the town atmosphere had significantly degenerated by the end of the day, and that a majority of people were playing in a way that made them very hard to tell from the actual scum. This means that it's unlikely that town is going to hit all their lynches, and this is actually what happened as the game went on. So, by removing the power roles that the town could use as a sort of crutch, you made it so they could only rely on analysis, which obviously wasn't going to work in this game, unless people made a major change in effort and posting. Thirdly, RoL's plan was bad for town, because of the combination of points one and two. The mafia's KP being able to be used more effectively by being aimed into the blues, means that player numbers will decrease more rapidly, especially if the angels are able to determine the identity of the demon hunter and avoid hitting him. This compounds the need of the town to be able to scumhunt well, because now they're losing players more rapidly than they would otherwise. This point isn't as strong, though, because it relies on the resolution of night actions. So, yes, RoL's plan could have been good for town, but in my eyes, it depended on the town having very good aim with their blues, and having very strong analysis. So, the onus of 'luck' was much more on the town than the angels, and based on how the game was going, it was a decent assumption that town wouldn't be able to play well enough to live in that situation. The reason for thinking RoL is scum, was that he spent the entire first day doing nothing but making excuses for not playing. Then, he comes into the thread, and instead of doing the most useful thing he could, and scumhunting, he instead pushes a plan that could be considered anti-town. However, the major point here, is that he spent all his effort into making and defending a plan, instead of finding scum. Then he spends all of day 2 making excuses and saying he'll scumhunt later. This is not the behaviour of a town player. This is the behaviour of someone who wants to avoid having to contribute and who wants to fly under the radar. There's no reason for thinking that he could be a townie, and pushing a plan doesn't make you a townie. RoL had no thread-presence, because he lurked all of day 1. This means that any plan he pushes forward, is instantly going to be harder for him to actually get put into action, and is going to meet a lot more resistance. So, he posts a plan that is not obviously pro-town, and then he doesn't even put much effort into getting it going. If he was a townie posting a plan that he thought was incredibly good for town, like he tried to make out, there's no reason to not push your plan, and no reason to give up on it so easily. This is why, RoL's posting, regardless of the content of the plan was scummy. Overall, that's why he was scum, and that's why he was a good day 2 lynch. Next, I just want to say in general, people need to stop worshiping vets or good players so much. Just because someone played well in one game, doesn't mean they'll play well in the next. Just because someone has a decent reputation as a scumhunter, doesn't mean you shouldn't lynch them when they're acting scummy. Judge a player by his contributions in the game you're playing, not by his potential. No one should get a free pass on day 1 to act incredibly scummy. I noticed this with Palmar in this game, but also in general, so I've decided to say something. This is all just my opinion, so feel free to disagree. | ||
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On January 22 2012 05:25 syllogism wrote: I don't give good people a free pass, I just consider it optimal play not to lynch good players on day 1 unless there are no alternative lynches of similar quality. In the long run this should be better play. I will adjust based on the player pool, so if the game has a bunch of good players, it's much safer to go after one. It's not even just that, I like to keep players who I like playing with around, though this is obviously not a good excuse, but just another incentive. Anyway, you wrote that wall of text and in the end reached the same conclusion I did This has little to do with the content of his plan I wasn't really talking about you, but there were lots of people making terrible excuses for Palmar's play. I don't really care who someone is, or how good they are if they're acting scummy. If anything, more experienced players should be held to a higher standard. If someone with one game played seems as scummy as someone with many games under their belt, which one is more likely to be playing badly and which is more likely to be scum? That's why I've stopped liking 'safe' lynches. If someone doesn't want to get lynched, then they should step up their play and prove that they shouldn't be lynched. Also, my wall of text was addressing the people who were saying that RoL's plan was pro-town. That has nothing to do with why he was scum, which I discussed later. I just wanted to say why even though RoL said his plan could be good for angels or town, it was actually a lot more likely to end up favouring the angels, based on the play of the game. I'm not sure why you're quoting that and talking about the contents of the plan, when I said this: This is why, RoL's posting, regardless of the content of the plan was scummy. Can you clarify?And when did you come to the conclusion RoL was scum? I remember you were against lynching RoL on day 2. | ||
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On January 22 2012 05:49 syllogism wrote: Holding people to a higher standard is a nice thought but doesn't seem optimal play in a player pool where often a few players win games for town. Also I don't think your case against palmar was quite as strong as you think; palmar genuinely thought even after the game that it was weak, which is one of the reasons why he played like that in TL mafia L (no further discussion about that game, but he has already flipped in it so that's fine). Of course by the end of n1 I was completely certain that he was scum, so had I reached that level of certainty earlier, I would have been fine with lynching him. I was only "against" lynching RoL on day 2 because when I woke up there was suddenly a new wagon on him, which at the time seemed strange given the events of day 1 and because I thought I had to see risk flip (scum...) to know how to proceed next. I said I found him scummy, but again we can only lynch one a day and the game had 6 scum. If risk and rol had both been scum, as seemed quite possible to me at the time, risk's lynch would have produced much more useful information. Ok, that makes sense, then. It's also funny that you bring up L, but I can't say anything about that right now. If you want to know, feel free to PM me. I think one of Palmar's greatest strengths at town, is that he's very easy to read. That makes it easy for him to lead people, and for people to listen to him, because they think he's a townie. However, that also goes against him when he rolls scum. The case was hard to make, because while I could read Palmar as scum, the hard part is trying to convince all the other people who haven't played with him as much that he was scum. He was pretty obvious though, as both you and I, as well as Jackal, all saw it before the end of day 1. | ||
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On February 01 2012 13:25 Zona wrote: Final (easy?) bonus question for everyone: The angels and demons call the setting in which this game took place the Hearth. What do the humans call it? The Hearth is the floor of a fireplace. Let's call it the gateway to Hell. | ||
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On February 01 2012 14:00 Zona wrote: ... There is a specific, correct answer to the question. Hmmm, I'm not sure, then. I was joking with that answer. The events take place in the "Town Square", and the town has set up a "Throne and Spire" to kill the angels and demons. | ||
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