Unless it starts before the first.
Purgatory Mafia
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
Unless it starts before the first. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On December 29 2011 21:01 Zona wrote: How does everyone feel about deferring the start of the game until Jan 2nd? Dec 31st and Jan 1st will be virtually no-activity days anyways, and it's already the 29th now. Hooray! | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
So as I am sure many of you are aware, the demons have no kp. The angels on the other hand, have 1 kp that they can use on anything, and 1 kp that they can use on demons, or "dark" town players. Given that we also have a demon hunter that can kill anything that isn't an angel, and a town sage that can undo the demonic corruption, I think it is pretty clear that our first priority should be to find and lynch angels. Hell, corrupted town can even help us find the demons. Lynching a demon is certainly preferable to no lynching or lynching town, but our main focus must be on lynching angels. They cannot be killed outside of lynching, and if we manage to lynch either the angel of death or the acolyte we lower their potential kp. If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now. All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote: I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype! My first thoughts on the setup; Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote: Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier You pointed it out in the post prior, I was reading the thread, and read the whole thread before replying to it, and his was the more recent mention of it so I hit the quote button on that one. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote: Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff? Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing I explicitly said don't share them unless you have a counter. I never said I was against sharing ways to fight strategies. If anything my statement implies that you should share if you have a counter to an angel or demon strategy. Don't twist my words. As for the order of action resolution, I read it when the game was posted and for some reason thought I recalled the cleansing being the first thing to resolve, not last. My bad. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 17:32 Blazinghand wrote: Ok, but imagine an alternate situation-- you don't have a counter to a strategy, but it's likely the angels/demons have thought of it. wouldn't this be a good time to share so that you can learn stuff? Like, I don't like the idea of a bunch of town players who aren't working together and pooling their ideas. That sounds bad. That sounds like a pro-scum town environment. You seem to be harping on this quite a bit, and yet haven't posted a single demon or angel strategy. The closest you have come is posting the risk of claiming the corruption. So, are you just pointing fingers at me for no reason, or are you withholding information that in your opinion should be shared? Or do you have no idea of how they should play but feel like other people will know and should share it? | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 17:46 Dirkzor wrote: Game on! This setup scares the living shit out of me. So many nuances to keep track of. Anyway... I agree that Angels appear to be strongest in the beginning with 1/2 KP. But what haven't been mentioned is that Angels can kill the demon for us aswell. If we lynch Angel of Death and Angelic Acolyte we will have to lynch/Demon hunter the Demons. Since I don't know the Demon hunter or how good that person is, he could just aswell kill 3 town people the first 3 nights which of course would not be very favourable for us. It basicly means we would need to do more correct lynches while having a good demon hunter that don't fuck us over with continously town kills. Demons also have the Twist ability which basicly makes one (1) of their members immune to night actions, rendering the demon hunter to be less useful. What i wanted to point out that even if we get 3 correct Angel lynches (unlikely) the first 3 nights. The demons are equally capable to fuck us over. That is why I think that killing any angel or demon is good. Not one over the other. If we knew which angel or demon, it would be a different matter. Demon Hunter: Each night, you may target a player other than yourself to attack. Twister: Any attempts to illuminate, slay, stalk, or observe that player will fail. Doesn't make any mention of attack (nor of sense). Demon hunter should be good to go on any twisted demons. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 17:59 Refallen wrote: Not to mention that while angels CAN kill demons, it hardly seems optimal for them. With 11 town and only 3 of each faction, for angels to kill off demons would just mean that town will have an easier time. I think that we can consider the scenario of angel and demon killing each other therfore, highly improbable. They don't know who is town and who is a demon. They might do it by accident. Granted, only the angel of death can do it accidentally (until the angel of death is killed at least) and then we'd never know the difference anyway. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 17:57 Blazinghand wrote: I'm not FoSing you or anything, HofD, I'm just saying that your policy ideas and posting ideas are bad, and I want everyone to know it so they don't follow your advice. I will "harp" on this as much as possible to promote good posts. Say this was a normal game of mafia and you were town. Would you discuss the ideal ways to play as scum? If not, why do you think discussing the ideal ways to play as demons and angels is a good idea? | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 18:01 Blazinghand wrote: ^--- example of a good post that discusses an angel strategy. Would you deny Refallen the right to make this post, HofD? No, you definitely would not. But you can see how discussions of scum strats are important to the town now, right? It should be fairly clear. How did that post improve our odds of winning as town? Please elaborate. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 18:09 Blazinghand wrote: IN FACT YOU EVEN RESPOND TO THAT POST RIGHT HERE: Why aren't you telling Refallen off? because you forgot for a moment about your poorly-thought-out rule and acted like a reasonable person. Try to do that more and think about your "well lets never discuss what scum actions might look like in this complicated setup" rule less. Once a strategy has been mentioned, I can't undo that. Also, I read that post as a mostly stating the obvious filler post, not a strategy post anyway. That was no more posting strategy than it would be to say "I bet you demons are going to try to get control of a vote majority!". But, I decided to correct a clearly flawed portion of it, aka the assuming that angels will magically never kill demons. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 18:18 Dirkzor wrote: Oh right. My bad. Thx for clearing that up. Oh and by the way. Your whole discussion about sharing angel/demon strat or not is stupid. What Refallen wrote wasn't a strat it was obvious and its okay to post that. I think what HOD means is an elaborate strat that can't be countered by town - ei. a strat that will be advanced and give angels/demons a chance to win because town has no counter. A strat like: X angel kill A town with powers, then claims that he was in purgatory so Y Angel can say blah blah right? Yay reading comprehension! Also, who was sent to purgatory is announced :-) | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
If the town seer claims after finding a single angel we have a 2/3 chance of reducing their kp, 2/3 chance of making it much safer to claim corruption, and a 100% chance of getting a lot of good information after the angel flips. There are no abilities in the game which make the reads come back incorrect. The angels also DO NOT have a roleblocking ability, so they then have to decide if they want to target the seer and risk missing a kp if the seer is sent to purgatory or leave him be. Obviously this becomes much riskier if we have already lost our channeler. I'd be interested to hear if other people think having the seer claim after their first angel find is a good idea as well. The sage on the other hand probably shouldn't claim unless he has 2 demons identified. If he claims with only one identified, 0% chance of reducing kp or reducing the corruption ability, demons have a roleblock ability, angels can kill the sage to make demons a larger threat to town thereby reducing focus on them. Still gain information obviously, but overall seems like a much weaker play than the seer claiming after finding an angel. The demon hunter is not only useful against demons. His attacks kill anything that isn't an angel....meaning if his target lives and wasn't sent to purgatory, he has successfully identified an angel. However, since he poses a significant threat to both angels and demons, I don't really see much of a reason for the demon hunter to ever claim, except perhaps to avoid a lynch if he fucks up and appears scummy. So please don't do that. On Bluelightz: I will go check out his filter in the newbie game to see what all the fuss is about. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
He was useless to town...but he was also scum, so that tells us nothing of his town play. He also played in a way that allowed him to be correctly identified as scum. I see no reason to lynch him for meta purposes alone, and am perfectly content to give him some time to post something useful. On January 05 2012 04:31 layabout wrote: What i think we should do today: I think that we should agree within the next few hours to commit to lynching a lurker day 1. The benefits of lynching a lurker day1: 1)Town blues can be active to prevent a day1 catastrophe 2)Town green can be active, which along with the blues would prevent a day1 town lynch. 3)In order to avoid being lynched angels and demons will also have to be active 4)If people take this seriously then there should be no lurkers, town does not need to worry about lurkers and there will not be a lurker townie mislynch day 1. 5)In the absence of lurkers then the day 1 lynch can be on somebody scummy + Show Spoiler + (as you cannot lynch a lurker if there aren't any)+ Show Spoiler + we also shouldn't no-lynch because that gives the angels a free kill and a no-flip for town 6)If we manage to force activity then we can establish a strong town atmosphere and force people to take stances, give opinions and provide useful information that can be analysed. We would essential transform lurking from a viable scum tactic to actively playing against your teams win condition. Cons (that i have thought of): 1)if somebody does lurk there are likely to be townie 2)sometimes things IRL come up and a player may be force to lurk for a period of time that would not warrant a modkill but would get them labelled a lurker. 4)(some town) people can get bored with day 1 and struggle to make relevant posts and may lurk 5)By making non-town active they could confuse influence manipulate and/or derail the thread to town detriment + Show Spoiler + but if they can do it after being forced to be active it is likely that they could do so anyway by providing a way for blues demons and angels to escape the lynch, in the event that vanilla town make up the bulk of the lurking players, we could inadvertently create a list of actives that is dense in demons angels and blues, because the demons and angels know their own teams they can potentially utilise this list better. I aim to create an effect similar to what happened in student mafia in which BH pressured non-contributors and townies stepped up and began offering information which made them easier to identify and there was a strong pro-town atmosphere.Whilst the situation is different i wish to achieve a pro-town result and i believe that we very easily can. This is not me advocating a lynch all lurker policy simply (what i believe to be) an effective way to utilise the day1 lynch to create a better town atmosphere or by lynching a player that town can ensure is definitely not a townie. Please consider this, and try to look at it objectively That's always one of those sounds like a good idea things, that then never proves to be as useful as one would hope. It doesn't force angels and demons to be active, it forces them to be on par or more active than the least active townie in the game, and there always seems to be at least one afk townie. Also, lurker lynches don't generate much info since there is nothing very contentious about lynching someone with few posts, nor are they likely to have tied themselves to their teammates in their posts. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 05 2012 04:45 Blazinghand wrote: So HoD, you rather reasonably want to give BL an additional chance to post, and rather reasonably don't want to always be lynching lurkers. What are your thoughts for a d1 lynch then, if it's not gonna be "guy who's posting terribly"? Or are we still acquiring reads or what Lynch the person that seems scummiest, obviously. And still acquiring reads. We have plenty of time left, no need to rush the lynch. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 05 2012 05:48 layabout wrote: I feel like this might not be working.., with so many not on board there is next to no chance of success. Can we agree to look at lurking as highly incriminating and scummy? In the likely event of rubbish cases on day1 can we agree to go for the lurkers? additional justification: 1)with 12 town 6 non-town and information denying cabalities information and an organised town are much more valuable than they would be in a normal game (they are crucial in a normal game with even a semi-comppetant scum) 2)in the likely event of a day1 mislynch, it would be preferable to have acheived a pro-town atmosphere rather than a safe-to-lurk atmosphere Why do you think it is likely that the cases after 72 hours of time will all be rubbish? Why do you think a day 1 mislynch is so likely? Even random chance gives us a 1/3 chance of hitting some form of scum, and I would like to think we can do better than random. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Nah, it was touched on:Regarding set-up: In this game, it feels like the town roles can be used in very versatile ways that people aren't really touching on. For example, the demon-hunter is a vigi for demons, but they can also serve as a detective for angels. There is nothing that protects from attacks besides going to purgatory, so if the demonhunter's target lives without going to purgatory, then they're an angel. Same thing with the sage. Many people are focusing on the cleansing aspect of the role, but not on the investigative powers. This ties in with the corrupted players as well. While the demons want to corrupt as many townspeople as they can, this also makes it more dangerous for them, as they essentially introduce demon detectives into the game. + Show Spoiler + The sage on the other hand probably shouldn't claim unless he has 2 demons identified. If he claims with only one identified, 0% chance of reducing kp or reducing the corruption ability, demons have a roleblock ability, angels can kill the sage to make demons a larger threat to town thereby reducing focus on them. Still gain information obviously, but overall seems like a much weaker play than the seer claiming after finding an angel. The demon hunter is not only useful against demons. His attacks kill anything that isn't an angel....meaning if his target lives and wasn't sent to purgatory, he has successfully identified an angel. However, since he poses a significant threat to both angels and demons, I don't really see much of a reason for the demon hunter to ever claim, except perhaps to avoid a lynch if he fucks up and appears scummy. So please don't do that. Also, I am assuming that his posting means he will actually be playing this game despite the lack of reply from Zona so far. Also, Wiggles makes a key point about lurkers here, so for those not aware, highlighting it again: Regarding Lynch all Lurkers: If you want to pursue this, you need to make the distinction between lurkers and inactives. Someone who hasn't posted all day cycles is not a lurker. They are an inactive. A lurker is someone who comes in, makes a useless post to appease everyone, and then leaves again, continuing this as necessary to keep pressure off themselves. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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HarbingerOfDoom
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On January 05 2012 15:19 Blazinghand wrote: Demonstrate to me that Palmar and Erandorr also DON'T do very little on the first 24 hours of day 1 when they are town, and I'm game like venison Why limit it to the first 24 hours? I said if they don't start posting more. But, have some town PaImar: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=87086 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=87086 And some town Erandorr: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284685&user=117613 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212&user=117613 | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 06 2012 04:06 Grackaroni wrote: HarbingerofDoom is my scum pick. He was one of the first people into the game and took a lot of time to comment on the setup. (this is what the majority of his posts are about) At the start of the game he asks for us to give strategies for demons/angels which to me seemed weird from a town perspective and not beneficial to town. In Newbie mini Mafia he was very active and spent a lot of time scum hunting. So far there has been no scumhunting done by him He seems fairly content with lynching a lurker. (Palmar/Errandorr are the only people he's pushed lynches for) Together this paints a picture to me, he is one of the earlier players to sign up, he was here right when the game started, he had the time to post quite a few things about the setup which tells us nothing about his allignment. In another game when he is town he is more active and does a lot of scumhunting but in this game he wants a lurker lynch.(granted it did include some meta with it) He has the time to post but chooses not to. I'll wait for more posts. All but two of my posts as of when you said this occurred while I was one of 5 people with posts in the game. Clearly I shoulda been scum hunting hard with all that info in the thread. I also did not and do not want a lurker lynch today. I wanted Palmar and Erandorr to start contributing, and the thread was fairly inactive at the time, so I thought bringing up a more controversial idea like lynching a couple veteran players might help get things moving, or at least get them contributing a bit more. Also, please don't use my first game ever to establish a meta on me. I've obviously adjusted my play since then. Try checking out Steamship or Election (as TotallyNotTwoPeople, starting game day 2 for when I basically began playing solo) to get a better meta read on me. @risk.nuke Isn't carefree play usually a townie trait? How does seeming carefree implicate bluelightz? The "everyone looks town!" is surely incriminating, but I am not finding the carefree being incriminating. Why would town get nervous when accused? They know they are innocent. Explaining themselves, yes, but I know I get annoyed, not nervous. @jackal, erandorr, xsksc and RebirthOfLeGenD Planning on doing...anything? Posting things would be appreciated. @refallen In election mafia I was only able to clear you on the basis of you figuring out exactly what scum had done in several situations when pointing it out was solely detrimental to scum. That is not the most reliable way of establishing your innocence if you are in fact town. Do you have a lynch target yet? | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 06 2012 05:39 risk.nuke wrote: It depends. If you are having a single one or two people accusing you, you get annoyed. Like I am now now with syllo. Or example in steamship prplhz tried to get me lynched on a bad case. I got annoyed. Then there are situations where you have a majority of people looking suspiciously at you. You've likely messed up and done something to justify their suspicions but you need to defend yourself. If you mess up town mislynch you. There is a situation I would be nervous in. Hmm, a fair point I suppose, but he had about as many people saying he was a bad lynch as he had saying he was a decent target, so I still don't know how much nervousness that would really induce. Also, an accusation from syllo is more likely to be a death-sentence than an accusation from someone like grackaroni or blazinghand, so I would think that would be more of the nervousness inducing suspicion... :-) @Grackaroni Could you please explain why you are using your previous game experience with bluelightz, where he was scum, to influence your opinion of how useful he may end up being as town in this game? Things like that along with your poorly constructed case on me certainly aren't looking very good to me so far, but I'll be checking out your previous games to see what kind of standard you should be held to when it comes to your use of logic/case building. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
- You most post in the thread at least once every 24 hours. Your role may also include other activity requirements which you must follow. And that's the bare minimum, not the recommended amount. Seriously people, this feels like a maybe 8 player game with some random cameo appearances thrown in. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 06 2012 06:54 Blazinghand wrote: Who are you addressing? Call them out. Well, most people in this game. I pointed out the 4 worst offenders here: @jackal, erandorr, xsksc and RebirthOfLeGenD Planning on doing...anything? Posting things would be appreciated. But people like mr wiggles, tyrran, zephirdd, cwave, and I am sure there are some others as well, would also be nice to hear more from. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On January 06 2012 09:06 Grackaroni wrote: That's basically one of the reasons I'm suspicious. You post a lot at the start and then when scumhunting begins you disappear, not that you didn't scumhunt at the start. The only meta I got from you was that you seemed like somebody who posted a lot and spent a lot of time scumhunting in that game. I should have looked into more recent games but what's wrong with letting me think that of you? the first part of your quote strikes me the wrong way because I get the feeling that you just wanted to downplay my abilities, you don't care if I accuse you and think my opinion should be worth less than a veteran like syllogism. You've done nothing to change my mind, the only person you call scummy is me and your reasoning is that you think my case against you is shitty + you add in my opinion of bluelightz which I don't think you would have even mentioned if I didn't accuse you. Next you make some posts about people lurking and leave. You haven't been scumhunting but you keep giving me reasons to believe that you have lots of time to do so : [previous game with lots of scumhunting and posting, early signup, post a lot on strategies at the start of the game (early to find out it started too) quick to see my post and has time to defend yourself] You're definitely holding back in your posting. Yes, I give your opinion less weight than I give syllo's. If you want to change that, be correct as often as he is over the course of many games. I am often around, as I work from a computer all day, but my availability fluctuates. I found out about this game through a PM for early signups from Zona, so yes I found out about it pretty early, I don't see what that has to do with anything. If you check when I usually start posting during the day, you will find that it is often around the time you posted your accusations against me. I am not holding back in my posts, I just like to get at least something from everyone before I really start making judgements. If you actually cared, you could easily look up my more recent play and you'd find that I tend to ask a lot of questions during games and I don't usually do a ton of case-building day 1 and realize your meta-argument is useless. If you think inactivity is a scum tell for me, be sure to read day 1 of election mafia. I did roughly nothing, I was town. Basically what I am trying to say is, you are wasting time/effort tunneling me and I'd appreciate it if you put in the effort needed to realize that. Speaking of asking questions, you ignored my question regarding bluelightz. Anyway, on to more useful topics. Re: Palmar I agree that his lack of activity is suspicious and rather out of the ordinary for him, but I am wondering if it is worthwhile to risk lynching a potentially very strong scum-hunter on the grounds of not caring this early into the game. I know of at least one other game where he didn't take day 1 very seriously (XVIII I think it was?). If that is the only one, than obviously his play so far is more damning than if he does this every so often. If any of the vets could fill me in on whether or not he has messed around day 1 in other games as well it would be appreciated. I'd also like to hear syllo's opinion on the matter, since if I am not mistaken syllo is usually quite good at reading Palmar. (If I am mistaken, feel free to correct me) @Refallen You seem more aggressive/bold in your defense than the past two games of yours that I just took a quick look back at. Have any explanation in particular for that? | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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On January 06 2012 12:34 Refallen wrote: Hi Harbringer, yes actually, there is. I've been wanting to play more aggressive since I kinda got tired of being forced to passively defend in election mafia. I made several references to this in both election mafia and in this thread I think. Ah, you are correct. My apologies, I tend to not pay attention to pre/post game posts for determining a player's meta, for obvious reasons. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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HarbingerOfDoom
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I am not saying keep him alive until late game. As stated, I know of at least one game he was in recently where he did basically nothing day 1. Past day 1 is quite a different story. A day 2 useless Palmar is definitely a scum Palmar. Also, I thought we had only 72 hours, but apparently we have 91 hours day 1. That makes me feel a bit better about establishing whether or not Palmar will be useful this game before the lynch occurs, less chance of being able to account for his lack of interest solely due to some RL issue coming up. But, as I stated: I know of at least one other game where he didn't take day 1 very seriously (XVIII I think it was?). If that is the only one, than obviously his play so far is more damning than if he does this every so often. If any of the vets could fill me in on whether or not he has messed around day 1 in other games as well it would be appreciated. So a decent way to solidify my stance on him would be by answering that question if you could. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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On January 06 2012 15:08 Mr. Wiggles wrote: As far as I remember, I have not seen him play a game as town where he has not played aggressively and forcefully, starting day 1. Every game I've played with him, he's either called someone out quickly, been quick to shoot down bad play, or tunneled someone into the ground if he's been town. This is not the Palmar I'm used to playing with as town. Also keep in mind, that most games only have 48 hour days, and he has already spent more than that time continuing to act the way he has. Thanks for the info. @Syllo Could you please answer this as well? Spoilered in case it is not clear what question I am referring to. + Show Spoiler + I know of at least one other game where he didn't take day 1 very seriously (XVIII I think it was?). If that is the only one, than obviously his play so far is more damning than if he does this every so often. If any of the vets could fill me in on whether or not he has messed around day 1 in other games as well it would be appreciated. I read your earlier exchange with him, and he mentioned steamship as an example of his lazy early game town play, but in that game he became very active before the 48 hour mark, which has already passed here. Do you think Palmar is likely to flip scum? | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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I don't like lynching lurkers, but from what I know of Erandorr, his lurking makes him likely to be scum, and I do like lynching scum. Barring him showing an actual commitment to playing, I would be fine with lynching him. On risk.nuke, his playstyle seems to vary a good deal between games, so I am not sold on him being scum yet and would certainly like to hear a bit more from him before deciding whether or not I think he is worth a lynch. Tyrran Tyrran's play seems very different from his play in steamship where he was town. He is being much less aggressive so far, and usually people are more aggressive as town than they are as scum. I think he would make a fine lynch for the day. My only qualm with lynching him is that he hasn't interacted with other players much so far, so his flip will be less revealing, but I like our odds of hitting scum here. My vote will be on him for now. His steamship filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=57176 His filter so far this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=57176 ##Vote: Tyrran | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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Do you really think a post like this makes it sound like you care very much about this game? On January 07 2012 07:03 Palmar wrote: It sounds rather apathetic to me.whatever. im moving my vote to eran. someone pointed out pushing me like that day 1 is risky. if i get lynched itll at least be a lesson in why listening to meta that has nothing to do with alignment is dumb as fuck. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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On January 07 2012 08:06 Blazinghand wrote: So you are voting Tyrran based on Meta instead of Erandorr who you think is likely to be scum due to being a lurker? Yes, because I think Tyrran is more likely to be scum than Erandorr at this time. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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On January 07 2012 09:12 Tyrran wrote: If you read steamship mafia, you'll notice i wasnt really active before I had some hard fact to analyse ( ie kenpachi lynch). I'm not good at analysing Meta, because its only my second game here. Half the accusation here are made on meta. I'm looking for contradictions, votes, something i can work on. I dont like making case for the sake on making one. I'll make a case after day 1, when i'll have more info to work with. No, I accused you of being non-aggressive/passive, not of being inactive. Saying that you weren't very active at first in steamship doesn't have any bearing on the argument I am making. Comparing these posts, which were 2 of your first 4 posts in steamship: + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2011 04:01 Tyrran wrote: What kind of defense is that ? No, I dont know what is in your head. The only reason you gave for not lynching lurkers is it "I'm sure some of the lurkers are blues". And we are not speaking of lynching them rigth now, but more toward the end of day 1. Not being active is one of the easiest way for mafia player to stay under the radar. we should prevent taht as much as possible. And blues, stay active, dont get lynched. On November 16 2011 20:07 Tyrran wrote: So you were a fervent defender of only lynching 'scummy' lurkers. And now you suddenly decide to vote for kenpachi without giving any reason Could you please detail a bit more on why you like kenpachi as a vote, other than the fact that he did not post much ? His townie claim basically does not mean anything Keeping an eyes on lurkers is good, but i would wait to the end on day 1(the last 24 hours) before voting for one of them. It seems to me that blanket voting this early on day one can only lead us divide our attention. Voting for someone whenever he says something strange without trying to pressure him more/confirm him as scum is a great way to lynch a lot of townies and seems to be a good strategy for the mafia side, but not that great for town ( obviously). Bumatlarge espescially has been trying to push the town into lynching as many people as possible. Almost each one of his post include a quote on how we should lynch every single player. Spoiler below shows some example from this filter : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=31777 + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2011 10:36 bumatlarge wrote: Why would you FoS when you can just vote them. Don't be pansies. Realized I didn't properly vote. I doubt I will ever take my vote off of kenpachi, it's not that I don't like him, but he is not an asset to the town at the moment, or the forseeable future. Nisani has proceeded to call me dumb or scum, but that doesn't change the fact that his fluffy posts stick out, so it will stay there until he remedies it. ##Vote: Kenpachi ##Vote: Nisani201 And this Is why LAL is bad. What possible reason would cause mafia to post this instead of town. By all means keep up the detective work and checking out all the inconsistencies, but use a little sense. This definetely contradicts itself, and it could very well be an intentional lie, but even that doesn't make him scum. The bad strategy reason tht DCL brought up is actually something to go on. You are pushing your luck by trying to find lies a day into the game. Use that energy to filter a suspicious person instead and get a general vibe, and see if their future posts push you one way or the other. If there wasn't a majority lynch in play, I'd put my vote on everyone, and start taking off people who don't register as scum. That's about how many people I think should be lynched each day. On November 16 2011 02:32 bumatlarge wrote: Next person that mentions LAL is getting a vote placed on them. Seriously enough with the useless shit. We will be lynching however many scummy people we can find on the particular day. We are restricting ourselves when we don't have a clue as to what our boundaries are. Nisani has posted complete fluff and none of it shows any effort in actually heling town. I don't think the new people are brain-dead, so unless the specifically ask about something, don't use them as an excuse to post asinine shit. Oh, hi kibbibit ##Vote Nisani201 On November 16 2011 12:37 bumatlarge wrote: We got 48 hours from now, right? This time tomorrow we need to look at the votes and see where people stand. I'm honestly surprised how few votes there are, you get as many as you want, a decent townie can take advantage of this. There is no comparing how scummy certain players are to others, you just lynch them or you don't. I guess it's still early, and I'm still fishing for reads here. Oh and surprise, the only post not advocating to lynch the entire town is to defend chaoser, the ONLY person that agreed with the 'vote for everyone' strategy, after he got pressured by WBG. And by defending him, he explains than chaoser should stop doing just what he was advocating the town to do i.e: vote for everyone that seems scummy. So you spend all your post explaining we should vote for anyone who seems scummy, and you defend chaoser that was doing exactly that by saying "he should focus his attention more". How is that not a huge contradiction ? FoS bumatlarge. to your play so far just seems incredibly different. It reads to me like you are playing scared this game. Scared because you're scum. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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On January 07 2012 15:01 Bluelightz wrote: Right now, I am suspicious of Grackaroni due to his Wishy-washyness with his reads.I think that since there's no real candidate for lynching I am fine with lynching a lurker, but if a solid case does pop up i'm fine with switching over I don't have suspicions on Palmar/you after Palmar's defense though. What do you think of Tyrran, have you looked at his play so far here, compared to his game as town in steamship (at least the first page of his filter)? Do you think the case has any merit? | ||
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I'm still interested in Tyrran as a lynch target, and I would like to hear more people's opinions of him. | ||
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On January 08 2012 13:54 Zephirdd wrote: Alright. Even drunken than before. fuck backspace So, hjrere is what i thnik. Erandorr case 3was weak, risknuke seemed like a better lynch, but even him I think wasmt good enough. Demon Hunter could try to shoot Palmar tonight IMO. MrWiggles doesnt look too scum eithner. I dont think Tyrran is a good kill, in fact he is playinmg just like his meta. TYhese are my thoughts. Also, beer is a fucking good drink, you should try it if yopu havent. It's soooooooooo gooooooooood Then who do you think is a good lynch target? | ||
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On January 08 2012 20:31 syllogism wrote: Harbingerofdoom's refusal to vote for Risk seems quite bad as well. He is still ignoring risk and not really explaining why. On January 07 2012 07:47 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: On risk.nuke, his playstyle seems to vary a good deal between games, so I am not sold on him being scum yet and would certainly like to hear a bit more from him before deciding whether or not I think he is worth a lynch. @RebirthOfLegend Demons ignore the blues, angels target two, they have a 50% chance of killing the channeler night 1, second night they get him for sure. Best case scenario is we have one blue alive after night 2, worst case they are all dead night 2. In the meantime we roleblock one of our own blues. Alternately, they ignore blues with the angel of death, use that kill on our best scum hunters and use the acolyte on our blues. Also, this plan ignores the possibility of a blue deciding not to go along with it and claim. Basically, I think the plan is quite bad. | ||
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On January 09 2012 04:30 syllogism wrote: You are still pretending that the case against risk was purely meta and it most certainly was not. You are repeating the same misrepresentations that risk used, making you look worse. Moreover the case against Erandorr was pure meta and you were fine with voting for him based on just that. A lot of things were even said about risk.nuke since you made that post. What do you think about him now? Anyway, we will certainly want to see risk flip first and you have a chance to step up regardless, but I do believe your stance regarding risk nuke has been suspicious I am not pretending it is pure meta. I am saying his meta confuses the shit out of me so I am not confident in my read on him. And my post said what I think of him now. | ||
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On January 09 2012 04:45 Dirkzor wrote: See, all i have is your word for it. But i guess we can lynch him and if he flips town we lynch you... That's dumb.Lynching Palmar is fine, but if he flips town that doesn't mean you lynch syllo. | ||
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On January 09 2012 04:57 layabout wrote: Well.. i made a slight error here (RoL had said he would vote for erandor here but he never voted) Erandor had four votes when HoD voted: Grackaroni, Blazinghand, Tyrran and Cwave Risk.nuke had 6 votes:syllogism, Refallen, Dirkzor, Zephirdd, layabout, Erandorr, @HoD your primary reasoning was to that to avoid a no-lynch you would vote for Erandorr because you were "fine with lynching him" in light of all of the pressure of risk.nuke why didn't you comment on it? if you wanted to avoid the no-lynch why did you vote Erandorr rather than voting for risk, who had the most votes? ...because I was leaning scum on Erandorr and was not on Risk. I didn't comment more on it because I was busy yesterday as I had to get shit ready for my girlfriend's birthday party/then was at it. For those wondering why I had a null read on risk, here is what Syllo said about him earlier this game: Where is the active and opinionated and aggressive risk.nuke of Election mafia who posted a lot and certainly didn't just repeat what others had said, right or wrong? Here is me asking about him in Steamship: @risk.nuke Notice any similarities? Fun fact, he was town in steamship.Last game I played with you you were extremely aggressive early on. This game you haven't attacked anyone yet, or even directly addressed someone. Any particular reason why you were active and aggressive last time, and are thus far being passive this game? | ||
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On January 09 2012 05:23 layabout wrote: Fun fact: risk nuke was agressive day 1 in steamship assertive vote for a clear reason attacks Forumite for a reason throws around his vote gives some reasoning makes his second vote because of sinani's vote (kenpachi and sinani got lynched and both flipped blue, risk was town) So i actually this compared to this game risk nuke was aggressiv in attacking players even if he was relatively inactive. So your meta reason is bollocks Eventually he became aggressive, but he wasn't right off the bat. If my meta reason is bollocks, then what, did I magically post that in a prior game to cover my ass in this one? Don't be dense. throws around his vote Also, if you were in this game, you would know that this is his vote being "thrown around" is the farthest thing from the truth. Lanaia had anti-voted kenpachi, immediately drawing intense suspicion to both of them and in most people minds requiring at least one of them to be flipped to settle the matter. Also, you could vote multiple people in that game, so he wasn't shifting his vote around. | ||
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Also, if you were in this game, you would know that calling this his vote being "thrown around" is the farthest thing from the truth. | ||
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On January 09 2012 05:55 layabout wrote: Your reasoning this game fir him being not scummy is that: In a previous game you felt he wasn't being aggressive at a certain point during day1 and that this might have made him scummy. He turned out to be town. In this game at a point near the end of day 1 risk nuke hadn't been aggressive and conclude that he isn't scummy, or completely dismiss the difference in play style. There is a difference in his play style and it was apparent when you voted. In this game he had had an awful lot longer to be aggressive but he wasn't (and still hasn't been). This means that actually his meta was different There were numerous other reasons that had been pointed out which you completely disregarded. By "throw around" i mean used for pressure. In that game he was exercising he voting power and using it to get reactions out of people, in this game he hopped on erandor at the brink to save himself. Oh shit, he went 24 hours more than he did previously without being aggressive? Clearly scum! Also, when I voted I hadn't read the newer parts of the thread very carefully as I was busy most of yesterday so I went with my best scum read at the time. Deal with it. And there definitely wasn't any aggressive tones in these posts, no, not at all! Before my vote: On January 07 2012 09:04 risk.nuke wrote: Erandorr is very likely scum. Simply because a non-posting Erandorr is a red Erandorr. Jackal58 is another person who would likely bleed red. The first thing he does is attack palmar and keeps at it using tunneling and fearmongering, while I am also slightly leaning red on palmar I don't think Jackal would hit him this hard if Jackal was town-aligned, he's just trying to get rid of palmar any means neccersary. He justifys it by saying he always attack palmar day 1 but I think this is just an excuse. He takes a break from his Palmar tunneling to rightfully rage alittle on people listing no-reads but it doesn't mean anything and he haven't contributed anything himself exept tunneling palmar. After it: On January 08 2012 08:02 risk.nuke wrote: The one fucking thing that should make you realise what a bad lynch I am is how fucking easily I'm getting bandwagon-sheeped to the block. Layabout is really the only one who's tried to write some reasoning, even though it's really really bad reasoning that was all it took because with that and ridiculous meta-claims I'm free to sheep, you don't need to state why I'm scummy, hell this is a bandwagon the more the merrier right. What information will you get when I flip town? Squat. On January 08 2012 08:12 risk.nuke wrote: I should had taken a bus 10 minutes ago, but I'm waiting here for you, in the bloody of-chance that you might see some reason and change the lynch because if I left now I know I will die and when I flip town people is going to whine and bitch about how I gave up and let myself get lynched so please speak. On January 08 2012 08:48 risk.nuke wrote: Blazinghand quit beeing a huge troll. You did some pressuring but that's all you've done, after that you just got convinced of your own selfimportance so please tune it down. Now, can I stop talking about somebody I still have a damn null read on, or would you like me to keep wasting time on the matter? | ||
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On January 09 2012 10:41 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Ah man, who will I lynch today now? Also, the AoD either didn't hit, or it's one of HoD or syllo. Acolyte missed. All people sent to purgatory are now targets of the channeler. ...or the acolyte went after a demon and the demon hunter didn't hit anyone. With how scummy Palmar was still playing, there is a chance the angel's opted to try to kill him in case he started trying and found them. However, I agree it is more likely the acolyte missed. | ||
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On January 09 2012 10:46 Jackal58 wrote: Why would he flip?. He's not dead. You didn't flip. What? Why would who flip? I was/am confused that the angel of death didn't kill anyone and think it is most likely that syllo was targeted by the angel of death. | ||
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On January 09 2012 11:22 Spaackle wrote: Well, now that we know that Palmar is scum, we should take a look at a post the he made earlier: I'll bet we find Palmar's scumbuddies in the list of the people that he declared as townies. With all the suspicion he had on him, do you really think he would be so bold as to put both of his teammates in that list of townies? | ||
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I think Palmar and/or his team mistakenly believed that I was the demon hunter due to these posts: + Show Spoiler + Detailed understanding of the role: On January 04 2012 17:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Demon Hunter: Twister: Doesn't make any mention of attack (nor of sense). Demon hunter should be good to go on any twisted demons. First to point out that the demon hunter is also effective vs angels: On January 05 2012 03:55 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Some things to think about: If the town seer claims after finding a single angel we have a 2/3 chance of reducing their kp, 2/3 chance of making it much safer to claim corruption, and a 100% chance of getting a lot of good information after the angel flips. There are no abilities in the game which make the reads come back incorrect. The angels also DO NOT have a roleblocking ability, so they then have to decide if they want to target the seer and risk missing a kp if the seer is sent to purgatory or leave him be. Obviously this becomes much riskier if we have already lost our channeler. I'd be interested to hear if other people think having the seer claim after their first angel find is a good idea as well. The sage on the other hand probably shouldn't claim unless he has 2 demons identified. If he claims with only one identified, 0% chance of reducing kp or reducing the corruption ability, demons have a roleblock ability, angels can kill the sage to make demons a larger threat to town thereby reducing focus on them. Still gain information obviously, but overall seems like a much weaker play than the seer claiming after finding an angel. The demon hunter is not only useful against demons. His attacks kill anything that isn't an angel....meaning if his target lives and wasn't sent to purgatory, he has successfully identified an angel. However, since he poses a significant threat to both angels and demons, I don't really see much of a reason for the demon hunter to ever claim, except perhaps to avoid a lynch if he fucks up and appears scummy. So please don't do that. On Bluelightz: I will go check out his filter in the newbie game to see what all the fuss is about. Unfortunately for the demons, and fortunately for us, they were incorrect and Palmar got stabbed in the face. (Yes, it is possible that it was the acolyte, but why would the angels kill someone they could get lynched when lynching is the only way for us to kill the angels?) | ||
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On January 10 2012 03:19 layabout wrote: Gloating and WIFOM in the same post? scummy? What gloating? And it isn't WIFOM, it is the simplest explanation. There is no 'but then they would think I know they know I am the demon hunter and not do anything about it!' Zero WIFOM involved. Some speculation, yes, but that is quite different from WIFOM. If you were a demon, who would you most like to roleblock? I would think certainly the demon hunter, possibly sage, but most likely demon hunter if nobody is corrupted yet. | ||
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On January 09 2012 19:58 syllogism wrote: I'm pretty sure palmar sent HoD to purgatory because he thought he was likely an angel. We of course can't draw any conclusions from that, but as noted before HoD's play has been somewhat suspicious so far. Anyway, either the angel of death attempted to hit me or the angel is HoD (or both!) It's also fairly likely that Palmar was a demon hunter hit because demon Demonic Twister's power protects against slay/stalk but not against demon hunter. Palmar had an important role, so it's somewhat likely that they would use it on him. I'm not sure if the twister can use the ability on himself, but right considering Palmar was by far attracting the most attention, that might change things depending on who the twister is. The only reason why it matters who hit Palmar is because the other possibility is that the demon hunter hit an angel who did not die, in which case we could discuss whether him claiming would be worthwhile. Probably not and his likely target would be risk nuke anyway. Risk.nuke still looks like the best lynch. The case against him still stands and quite a few people were against his lynch without adequately explaining why. They obviously can't all be his team mates, but it's hard to believe there would be that many townies unwilling to lynch him in that situation and be perfectly fine with lynching erandorr. His behaviour hasn't improved at all and that vt claim right before day post doesn't seem like something a townie would do. Syllo, you're pretty smart, so please tell me why on earth you think Palmar would banish me to purgatory if he thought I was an angel? Let's look at the scenarios: 1) I am the Angelic Observer - sending me to purgatory does nothing for the demons. 2) I am the Acolyte - unless I for some reason decide to go after a demon instead of a blue, does nothing for the demons. If I do go after blues, doing this hurts the demons. 3) I am the Angel of Death - I would never hit Palmar when I could get town to use up a lynch on him as lynching is the only anti-angel kp. Also leading a scum lynch can get some town cred. So one demon (Palmar) is safe. Another demon can be twisted, so now 2 are safe. Note, so far this also applies to the acolyte even if the acolyte is targeting a demon. So now blocking the angel of death is only useful if the third demon is also a likely target for a scum night kill. I don't see how any of those are a better choice than targeting someone you think is a blue, especially if you have no idea which I am and are taking the 1/3 chance of a remotely useful roleblock. As I stated, I think it is much more likely he thought I was blue than an angel. | ||
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On January 10 2012 03:51 layabout wrote: What Purpose does the Post "Why I think I was put in purgatory" serve? How does it help town? I think Palmar and/or his team mistakenly believed that I was the demon hunter due to these posts: You connect the idea of you being sent to purgatory* with the idea that your posting caused the demons to think that you were the demon hunter. You present the idea of your posts being responsible for the angels banishing you because you have made them think that you were the demonhunter. From this it would easily be infered that you posted TO make them think you were they demon hunter. You then say To me this seems like gloating because you associate the demons thinking that you were the demon hunter (which is WIFOM and total speculation) with a demon being lynched I don't see how this helps town but i do see how you associate your posting at the start of the game and a demon flipping and how this tries to put you in a better light despite the fact that your decisions about how to behave were almost certainly not made with that goal in mind and if they were the actual chance of them acheiving the result of a dead demon is next to none. That is why i see it as gloating. Speculation about scum motivation and scum goals when they commit actions that will be subject to scrutiny is what part of your post is and is almost the perfect example of WIFOM. *which could have been because either the channeller though you were a town asset to protect or a demon or angel to roleblock OR the demons felt that you were a blue or an angel OR you were targeted by one of the two because they felt night actions would land on you and they wished to roleblock those targerting you OR they may have simply wanted increase attention on you. There is a plethora of reasons that could be the case and without addition information we cannot rule many out. If the demons send a player to purgatory they know towwn will find out and this will impact their decision making. The post serves to help clarify the situation and give town some potentially useful information, clarity and information are both valuable to town. Ideally it also lowers suspicion on myself, which seeing as I know I am town, is also good for town. Also, as I said, it is NOT WIFOM if the goal is to roleblock. Not doing it doesn't roleblock me, it isn't like if I was the demon hunter I'd go "better not send in a night action in case I get roleblocked!" Roleblocking stops someone from using their role if roleblock them, and doesn't if you don't do it. WIFOM is they killed x, he was suspicious of y! Does that mean y is scum, or they want us to think y is scum? Yes, it is possible they wanted to increase suspicion on me as well, and that part is subject to WIFOM'ing. (They wanted to make me more suspicious, so that actually makes me less suspicious, but they would know that so it is more suspicious....etc etc etc) | ||
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On January 10 2012 04:22 layabout wrote: You haven't said what the "potentially useful information is" yet you say that you have given it and that it was valuable to town. You don't know what the goal is! You can'teven know for certain who palmar transported (unless you are a demon and he told you or you are the channeller). I suggest that the whole thing is subject to WIFOM-ing. It is called "Why i think i was put in Purgatory", what exactly can you follow that up with that is wifom!! Wifom is also: did Palmar tansported HoD? why? Does that mean HoD is scum with him? Did Palmar think he was the other scumteam? Did Palmar wish to increase suspicion? since your post provides answers to those questions and attempts to explain them then yes it is WIFOM. It isn't helpful. *sigh* So if you think this is pure WIFOM, why are you even discussing it? I found a simple explanation for my being sent to purgatory, simple explanations are often correct. And no, I can't know for certain that it was Palmar that did it, but if it was the town channeler then our channeler is dumb as fuck, which I find unlikely. The valuable information is what likely happened in regards to the night actions last night. Knowing our own roles and alignments, Syllo and I have better insight into it than most. Obviously the channeler, demon hunter, and scum teams know a good deal as well, but I doubt they'll be claiming just to clarify this. | ||
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On January 10 2012 04:09 Cwave wrote: Wowowowo, you oversee(on purpose?) one thing. This is a 3 faction game but when it comes to lyncing, its a 2 faction game looking from your own POV(town,angel,demon). Lynching is our only way to kill angels and demons help just as much with their lynch vote as the town when it comes to killing an angel. So your point 3 is wrong cause when you are the AoD you want demon and town dead as they can lynch vote you. And of all the demons, the demonic courier is the one that can actually hurt the angel team. So hell yeah you would hit Palmar if you knew he was the courier. Point 1) can you out your angel of death and get him couriered for 3 straight nights. Point 2) can get you the twister or courier killed, all in the benefit of both the town and angels. Another weird point if that you choose to eloborate point 3) with way more effort and text. If this was "The mentalist" or "Lie to me" i would call dibs in the couch on who was the liar as people tend to put to much effort in the lie they want to tell. Points up on my suspected angel-list HoB...... ...but there is literally a 0% chance of angels knowing which demon role Palmar was before he flipped so that is irrelevant. And you hit blues over demons because the seer, demon hunter, and channeler are all incredibly potent town assets against angels, and demons being alive gives you valid targets to scum hunt and get lynched instead of your teammates. If town is weak, sure, they might start killing off some demons on purpose, but them doing so now would be stupid. I elaborated point 3 because it was the only one that might actually be worth a damn to the demons. Now, unless anyone has specific questions for me or actually wants to lynch me instead of just saying "I think he might be an angel" and then doing nothing about it, I will no longer be mentioning my trip to purgatory/what I think the reasoning behind it is and will instead focus on more useful shit. On January 10 2012 03:08 layabout wrote: Suspicious bastards: risk.nuke Refallen Tyrran Dirkzor RoL Jackal? (there is town there but i think these players should receive heightened attention) Hey look - a list! Care to explain anything about it? Lists without reasons are pretty useless filler. @Tyrran You still have yet to make any real contributions. Planning to start doing so any time soon? @Those suspicious of Syllo I think you are mistaken. The odds of him being a demon after his interactions with Palmar seems quite low to me, unless he was willing to bus Palmar today, he mentioned Palmar was essentially claiming scum during the night. I think it is very likely he was targeted by the angel of death, the only way I could see him not being town is if he is the angel of death. | ||
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On January 10 2012 04:48 layabout wrote: @ Hod If you had been reading the thread the least obvious would have been Tyrran because i haven't really talked about him up until this point. The others i feel i have already justified in a way that makes your questioning redundant. Why insinuate that I haven't been reading the thread? I assure you I have read every post at least once, and most more than that. Also, I started writing that post (and my one immediately prior) before your explanation of Dirkzor, and had not refreshed since then. I have no way of knowing if you have posted 100% of your reasoning for a player being scum, I saw you had called RoL's plan bad, but so had lots of people, and I don't think merely suggesting it is enough to make him scum and wanted to know if there was anything else. Syllo already pointed out why your reasoning for Refallen is questionable, and I honestly didn't think you would deem him scummy solely on that. Presumably after Palmar's flip Jackal looks better - he strongly wanted people to vote Palmar, so I wanted to know what your reasoning was there. As you said, you hadn't mentioned much on Tyrran yet. Hey look, my question was valid on 5/6 (or 4/6 had I refreshed earlier), sure was redundant! | ||
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Care to elaborate on what it is about Tyrran's posting that makes you change your mind between here On January 08 2012 13:54 Zephirdd wrote: I dont think Tyrran is a good kill, in fact he is playinmg just like his meta. And here: On January 10 2012 02:27 Zephirdd wrote: -snipped- No, there is not enough info for pushing a lynch, but I'd like people to keep an eye on him. Also Tyrran, his posts are weird for me. Changing your mind is obviously fine, but I'd like to know why beyond "his posts are weird". | ||
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On January 10 2012 05:39 layabout wrote: @HoD If you wanted me to provide 100% of my reasoning then you should have asked that. I had said enough previously for your vague question of "care to anything about it" to be redundant. You call it empty useless filler. Your posting today has been empty useless filler. Unless you have anything valid and worthy of my attention to say to me then I am going to ignore you for as long as I feel like/ I could have asked that, but townies usually like to be transparent in their actions, so I thought asking if you'd like to explain would suffice. Also, please don't use the quote tag and then include something which is not a quote. That is misleading. The actual quote is: Care to explain anything about it? Not :Care to anything about it? | ||
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On January 10 2012 06:12 Cwave wrote: As you choose to ignore my post and after reading your responses, you are forcing me to vote for your lynch HoD. But what where you, you nowhere explain it from your POV but only from Palmar's. You explain incomplete scenarios for Angel possibilities trying to steer away but nowhere go into depth about the blue/town side. Might be because you want to protect your blue role or live as town............. You only have to fear the lynch if you are an angel..... ...so in my explanation of why Palmar sent me to purgatory, you want me to use my perspective instead of Palmar's? Also, I did respond to your post, what do you mean I ignored it? Or did you want me to use my perspective instead of the Angels' for explaining why the Angels wouldn't target a demon night one? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your post, but it makes no sense to me. My response: ...but there is literally a 0% chance of angels knowing which demon role Palmar was before he flipped so that is irrelevant. And you hit blues over demons because the seer, demon hunter, and channeler are all incredibly potent town assets against angels, and demons being alive gives you valid targets to scum hunt and get lynched instead of your teammates. If town is weak, sure, they might start killing off some demons on purpose, but them doing so now would be stupid. I elaborated point 3 because it was the only one that might actually be worth a damn to the demons. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 10 2012 06:29 Cwave wrote: How is it not in the best interest of both the Angel Party and Demon party to try and hit the courier? Noone could know that ofcourse but if you are either scum team and you suspect someone is scum aswell, you have a 1/3 to hit the courier right? Good odds imo and it seems Angel team wanted Palmar dead. Well, the courier is a demon, so pretty damn sure it isn't in their best interest to hit him. Good odds imo and it seems Angel team wanted Palmar dead. What evidence do you have for the angel team wanting him dead (at least more so than any other non-angel)? And why would they want him dead via night kill instead of taking up a lynch if they thought that was possible to get him lynched? | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
I'm not sure if anyone else picked up on it, but despite all of the legitimate concerns voiced against the plan during the night, Tyrran had this to say earlier today: With no ???? flip, RoL plan could still be put into motion. What do you think about it? I would obviously prefer to lynch Tyrran over Risk today, but I don't like how Risk has fallen off the face of the earth now that there has been less suspicion on him/pushing for his lynch. He hasn't gotten himself into any real shouting matches yet either, which is unlike him. Also the fact that Syllo is still suspicious of him is of interest of me, because Syllo is often right, and the later into the game it goes, the more likely it is that he is correct. @Syllo Is there anything in particular that makes you think Risk is a better lynch than Tyrran? | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 10 2012 15:38 Blazinghand wrote: "his play was so scummy he couldn't possibly be scum" and Syllo if I have to push this through without you I will It is not so scummy he couldn't be scum...it is the disregard for the personal consequences, which is often a townie trait. When you aren't guilty, you don't usually think too much about whether or not what you do will draw suspicion. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
At the start of this game it looked like you were going to be useful and do things and say stuff. Then the day one lynch happened and you apparently decided that you had done quite enough of that 'being involved in the game' nonsense. Since then the only real post you've made is still not particularly useful or insightful: + Show Spoiler + On January 10 2012 13:07 Grackaroni wrote: I agree with you BH, RoL looks really scummy. It's not the fact that he has been fairly inactive and "hustling" like erandorr but that he's been actively using his time to push a plan that is bad for town and defending his plan rather than scumhunting. Since he is already coming kind of close to the lynch (would be 5/9) I'm going to refrain from voting until he comes in to defend himself. Why the loss of interest? Are you planning on going back to being active/useful anytime soon? Do you have any other reads you might like to share? | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
See this post for the current time remaining in the day: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603#6 Anyway, I got the chance to spend some time today doing a bunch of rereading, and after doing so I will not be voting for RoL nor Risk today. Maybe I'm being dense, but I really don't see them as being leading candidates for flipping scum. If I end up having to choose between the two to avoid a no lynch, I favor lynching Risk over RoL, but I'd prefer to lynch neither. My top target remains Tyrran. His passivity and seeming lack of confidence in his reads and overall disinterest in the lynches just seems unlike most townies, and unlike how he played in my prior game with him. While I didn't want to make the following point yet to see if he would keep doing it, Dirkzor already brought it up and stated it quite well, so no reason not to restate it now: On January 11 2012 03:38 Dirkzor wrote: In the end I'll just quote how Tyrran have taken no stance on anybody he have written a case on. Note: These quotes are cut, but they are all the last part of Posts by Tyrran. While I think that alone is scummy for any player to do, here's some examples of how Tyrran himself presented cases in his prior game: + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2011 20:07 Tyrran wrote: So you were a fervent defender of only lynching 'scummy' lurkers. And now you suddenly decide to vote for kenpachi without giving any reason Could you please detail a bit more on why you like kenpachi as a vote, other than the fact that he did not post much ? His townie claim basically does not mean anything Keeping an eyes on lurkers is good, but i would wait to the end on day 1(the last 24 hours) before voting for one of them. It seems to me that blanket voting this early on day one can only lead us divide our attention. Voting for someone whenever he says something strange without trying to pressure him more/confirm him as scum is a great way to lynch a lot of townies and seems to be a good strategy for the mafia side, but not that great for town ( obviously). Bumatlarge espescially has been trying to push the town into lynching as many people as possible. Almost each one of his post include a quote on how we should lynch every single player. Spoiler below shows some example from this filter : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=31777 + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2011 10:36 bumatlarge wrote: Why would you FoS when you can just vote them. Don't be pansies. Realized I didn't properly vote. I doubt I will ever take my vote off of kenpachi, it's not that I don't like him, but he is not an asset to the town at the moment, or the forseeable future. Nisani has proceeded to call me dumb or scum, but that doesn't change the fact that his fluffy posts stick out, so it will stay there until he remedies it. ##Vote: Kenpachi ##Vote: Nisani201 And this Is why LAL is bad. What possible reason would cause mafia to post this instead of town. By all means keep up the detective work and checking out all the inconsistencies, but use a little sense. This definetely contradicts itself, and it could very well be an intentional lie, but even that doesn't make him scum. The bad strategy reason tht DCL brought up is actually something to go on. You are pushing your luck by trying to find lies a day into the game. Use that energy to filter a suspicious person instead and get a general vibe, and see if their future posts push you one way or the other. If there wasn't a majority lynch in play, I'd put my vote on everyone, and start taking off people who don't register as scum. That's about how many people I think should be lynched each day. On November 16 2011 02:32 bumatlarge wrote: Next person that mentions LAL is getting a vote placed on them. Seriously enough with the useless shit. We will be lynching however many scummy people we can find on the particular day. We are restricting ourselves when we don't have a clue as to what our boundaries are. Nisani has posted complete fluff and none of it shows any effort in actually heling town. I don't think the new people are brain-dead, so unless the specifically ask about something, don't use them as an excuse to post asinine shit. Oh, hi kibbibit ##Vote Nisani201 On November 16 2011 12:37 bumatlarge wrote: We got 48 hours from now, right? This time tomorrow we need to look at the votes and see where people stand. I'm honestly surprised how few votes there are, you get as many as you want, a decent townie can take advantage of this. There is no comparing how scummy certain players are to others, you just lynch them or you don't. I guess it's still early, and I'm still fishing for reads here. Oh and surprise, the only post not advocating to lynch the entire town is to defend chaoser, the ONLY person that agreed with the 'vote for everyone' strategy, after he got pressured by WBG. And by defending him, he explains than chaoser should stop doing just what he was advocating the town to do i.e: vote for everyone that seems scummy. So you spend all your post explaining we should vote for anyone who seems scummy, and you defend chaoser that was doing exactly that by saying "he should focus his attention more". How is that not a huge contradiction ? FoS bumatlarge. On November 17 2011 06:55 Tyrran wrote: Actually, i think that's a good point. However, if kenpachi flips red, i still think we should auto lynch lanaia. We cant let someone that anti voted a scum go free. Also, if lanaia is blue, she will most likely be a priority kill for the mafia ( who now knows she isnt green), and migth not live to see day 2 anyway. Also kenpachi, you're only defense is : "LOL TOWN IS BAD". I seriously hope that you can do better than that. ##Vote Kenpachi On November 18 2011 07:20 Tyrran wrote: So within four hours, we must focus on getting another lynch. We already have 2 people a 8 votes, i suggest we focus on them. Both look scummy, both are in my likely scum list, yet Drazerk voted for Sinani206 so its unlikely that both are scum. First of all, Sinani was a big partisan of dividing our attention . Quite amusingly he used the divide and conquer analogy, where as pointed by WBG, you are suppose to divide you enemy. Meaning we town are the enemy? He Bandwagoned against Lanaia, which as i explained before, is something that is very pro-mafia. Just look at his post just before, when we already established that Lanaia should not be lynched. Both his votes are given without any explanation other than "its obvious". He is either scum or an extremely bad town. Even Drazerk looks good in comparison. I dont think town needs him. ##Vote Sinani206 On November 22 2011 07:19 Tyrran wrote: Also, while I'm at it : ##Vote: Coagulation ##Vote: Sabin010 ##Vote: xsksc You lurkers unburrow just to lynch an innocent WITHOUT any justification at all, and completely disregarding the post where I understand that prp is a potential blue ( yes i called him vigi which he denied but still) and Palmar huge post in his defence. You are either scum or really crappy town, i dont want you in the game either way. I also dislike the look of xsksc->spaackle so far. I think the only original contribution either has made was spaackle's argument of Palmar looking town...which is not the best contribution to have. xsksc's filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=149333 Spaackle takes over: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=164534 I would appreciate it if others would take a look at bluelightz and tell me what they think. I am having trouble seeing how his posts make sense from a town perspective or a scum perspective, which is baffling to me. He seems to really like doing post by post...but then summarizing instead of analyzing. I don't think I've ever seen such a style before. @Cwave Please try to make your posts a bit more clear. I understand that english may not be your native language, but reading your filter hurts my head. Also, a good deal of your logic seems questionable, but I am not sure if that makes you scum yet. Some examples: + Show Spoiler + Palmar creates information spam, useless stuff and usefull stuff. I don't see how that observation by me makes me his buddy? I've played games with Palmar outside of the TL context and he is known for his textwalling and informationgathering skills, no matter what side he is on. Information and interaction is good for our town. Unless Palmar plays very differently outside of TL, I don't see how this can be true.Looking into Palmar his filter, he and Wiggles go off on some sort of duet where they distance eachother and vote for eachother. This logic is flimsy at best.Then they both switch and nothing is said of it and right before Palmar flips, he lists Wiggles as town. Where as before in his filter, nowhere does it come forward that he has really changed his mind or that Wiggles has him convinced that he is town. Seeing as Palmar flipped scum, im thinking MrWiggles might be one of his demonic dancing partners. -snip- In conclusion, these two were giving eachother nothing but hate right up until ~7:30 on the 8th of januari. Looks like a planned and organised move to move the votes of eachother after they created some distance of eachother on day1. He said he would claim. He didnt say he would claim VT like the states in his last post i quoted here. Wonder if that's semantics or a slip that he said he would claim VT against his scumbuddies and then thought he claimed it in here aswell. ...seriously? If he said he would claim, and he is a vt, then "I will claim" and "I will claim vt" are equivalent. Also, how could someone say they are going to claim VT later without having claimed... "Guys, I'm going to claim floridian later, but not yet!" His statement here has no logical thought in it whatsoever. You only have to fear the lynch if you are an angel..... (this quote was said in the context of him/layabout pressuring me) What the fuck? Why wouldn't demons or towns fear being lynched? In short, lynching Risk but hammering RoL is second best option. Syllo doesn't seem to agree on this, why i don't know. Unlike RoL(aka the guy who doesn't post) risk.nuke is still producing reactions and information in the progress, so RoL is a good option in my book. Hence i vote for him at this point as lynchtarget. No, i say Risk is my number one case. Calls Risk his strongest case, then votes for RoL instead...then seems to imply risk.nuke is producing useful information while RoL is not...then reiterates that Risk is his best case. What?If we can lynch him today, i will vote. Also, why did you say this: As you choose to ignore my post and after reading your responses, you are forcing me to vote for your lynch HoD. And then never vote for me?Geez that post came out longer than I expected. Ending with a vote on Tyrran, of course. ##Vote: Tyrran | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 12 2012 00:03 syllogism wrote: Alright, first of all I will never admit that was a poor lynch. Risk did no scum hunting at all following his single case post, which itself was suspicious, on day 1 and his defense made no sense at all. Further, a bunch of people acted suspiciously when asked for the opinion on him and Tyrran/Cwave refused to touch the lynch on two days. The fact I was wrong likely means that I was not hit on day 1, which significantly increases the likelihood of HoD being the angel of death. I will have to consider something. On January 12 2012 00:37 syllogism wrote: Harbingerofdoom posted this day 1 This sounds as if you knew he was going to flip town. I suppose the problem with that is that he could still have flipped the other scum team. Grackaroni you have basically stopped playing. Another player who clearly does not care about the game at all. First of all, if you had stopped your tunnel vision you would have seen he wasn't such a great lynch, especially in comparison to some of the other players in this game. Being wrong on one of your day 1 lynch targets is also no reason for scum to not try killing you, and you should know that. As for my post, I didn't know what he was going to flip, but I thought it was a lot more likely that he would flip town than most people seemed to be expecting, and it would have given people some reason to go after me. It was not confidence that he would flip town, but merely confidence that if he didn't, I could defend myself. I defended him, and if he flipped scum, I was aware I would look bad. But, I thought the case against him wasn't very good, so I defended him and pushed someone I thought was much more likely to flip scum. I asked you why you wanted to lynch Risk over Tyrran and the only explanation you gave me was: On January 10 2012 15:44 syllogism wrote: I asked that because I honestly didn't see how a good player could look at the cases against both Risk and Tyrran and come out thinking Risk was the better lynch. HoD: I'll have to think about it more, but purely based on informational purposes risk is much better given the activity surrounding him on day 1 | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 12 2012 04:22 syllogism wrote: Pretty much everything you said about Tyrran (passivity, lack of confidence in his reads, overall disinterest in the lynches) applied to risk as well. Can you point out what made risk look like a townie (?) to you? gasdjafeaiuhfaisdf ...you think a guy who nearly got lynched wasn't interested in the lynch? Are you being serious right now? On January 08 2012 08:15 risk.nuke wrote: layabout is probably a townie, Question Palmar and Dirkzor, Erandorr and Jackal are red. Banish syllo/wiggles tonight, see you. On January 08 2012 09:41 risk.nuke wrote: whew, I'm so god damn relived right now On January 09 2012 04:50 risk.nuke wrote: Imo a town Palmar would respond to that with a pretty huge post declaring why the plan is dumb alternativly if he approved of the plan he would write additional thoughts or/and reason further why it is a good plan. On January 11 2012 00:49 risk.nuke wrote: lol, bullshit. There were a very very fucking very good chance that if you hadn't said that somebody else would had and you know that. The abillity has 2 functions, roleblock and save. Save is about 1000xtimes better. Period. I laugh at your "I said it first and it's an anti angel move so I can't be an angel" logic. fucking proposterous that you're trying to milk that so far. You're trying to claim that just because you're playing pro-town you can't possibly be scum. Ha. And right now you're tunneling me on a shitty case that only makes sense if you were an angel so thats what I think of you beeing pro-town. Yup, no confidence in any of those, certainly no aggressive tones or anything either. Also, as I stated before, Risk's play varies quite widely from game to game, despite him having been town in every game I have played with him. That is certainly not the norm for most players. But, the real deciding factor for me was nothing to do with that, it was simply that Risk's play seemed to be explainable from the perspective of a townie on the verge of being lynched and frustrated at having to defend himself. Knowing my own alignment, it was also odd to me that I was his main defender, I figured if he was scum surely a scum buddy would support my defense of him. Obviously that point doesn't get to apply to other people though, as they don't know my alignment. Was I sold on him being town? No, but he also didn't make my top 5 most likely to be scum. Tyrran on the other hand was doing that shit with me being the only real source of pressure on him. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 12 2012 04:44 syllogism wrote: Besides you didn't "defend" risk or push Tyrran. You made a few posts stating on your opinion on the lynches (it sounded like you were ok with risk lynch). Who are the "other players" in the game you would have lynched over risk, besides Tyrran? Overall I don't have a problem with your posting. The issue I have is that if you aren't AoD, why did they risk shooting me last night if I was likely going to be leading another mislynch? Err, then what was this post? On January 11 2012 14:02 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: I was ok with it over a no-lynch, but I clearly stated I wanted neither Risk nor RoL lynched. And you know as well as I do that pushing someone else to be lynched is a way to defend someone. Cwave and Spaackle were two others I would have preferred over Risk. Bluelightz I wanted to hear some more on (and still do), but was favoring him over Risk as well, although only slightly.@RoL See this post for the current time remaining in the day: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603#6 Anyway, I got the chance to spend some time today doing a bunch of rereading, and after doing so I will not be voting for RoL nor Risk today. Maybe I'm being dense, but I really don't see them as being leading candidates for flipping scum. If I end up having to choose between the two to avoid a no lynch, I favor lynching Risk over RoL, but I'd prefer to lynch neither. My top target remains Tyrran. His passivity and seeming lack of confidence in his reads and overall disinterest in the lynches just seems unlike most townies, and unlike how he played in my prior game with him. While I didn't want to make the following point yet to see if he would keep doing it, Dirkzor already brought it up and stated it quite well, so no reason not to restate it now: While I think that alone is scummy for any player to do, here's some examples of how Tyrran himself presented cases in his prior game: + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2011 20:07 Tyrran wrote: So you were a fervent defender of only lynching 'scummy' lurkers. And now you suddenly decide to vote for kenpachi without giving any reason Could you please detail a bit more on why you like kenpachi as a vote, other than the fact that he did not post much ? His townie claim basically does not mean anything Keeping an eyes on lurkers is good, but i would wait to the end on day 1(the last 24 hours) before voting for one of them. It seems to me that blanket voting this early on day one can only lead us divide our attention. Voting for someone whenever he says something strange without trying to pressure him more/confirm him as scum is a great way to lynch a lot of townies and seems to be a good strategy for the mafia side, but not that great for town ( obviously). Bumatlarge espescially has been trying to push the town into lynching as many people as possible. Almost each one of his post include a quote on how we should lynch every single player. Spoiler below shows some example from this filter : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=31777 + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2011 10:36 bumatlarge wrote: Why would you FoS when you can just vote them. Don't be pansies. Realized I didn't properly vote. I doubt I will ever take my vote off of kenpachi, it's not that I don't like him, but he is not an asset to the town at the moment, or the forseeable future. Nisani has proceeded to call me dumb or scum, but that doesn't change the fact that his fluffy posts stick out, so it will stay there until he remedies it. ##Vote: Kenpachi ##Vote: Nisani201 And this Is why LAL is bad. What possible reason would cause mafia to post this instead of town. By all means keep up the detective work and checking out all the inconsistencies, but use a little sense. This definetely contradicts itself, and it could very well be an intentional lie, but even that doesn't make him scum. The bad strategy reason tht DCL brought up is actually something to go on. You are pushing your luck by trying to find lies a day into the game. Use that energy to filter a suspicious person instead and get a general vibe, and see if their future posts push you one way or the other. If there wasn't a majority lynch in play, I'd put my vote on everyone, and start taking off people who don't register as scum. That's about how many people I think should be lynched each day. On November 16 2011 02:32 bumatlarge wrote: Next person that mentions LAL is getting a vote placed on them. Seriously enough with the useless shit. We will be lynching however many scummy people we can find on the particular day. We are restricting ourselves when we don't have a clue as to what our boundaries are. Nisani has posted complete fluff and none of it shows any effort in actually heling town. I don't think the new people are brain-dead, so unless the specifically ask about something, don't use them as an excuse to post asinine shit. Oh, hi kibbibit ##Vote Nisani201 On November 16 2011 12:37 bumatlarge wrote: We got 48 hours from now, right? This time tomorrow we need to look at the votes and see where people stand. I'm honestly surprised how few votes there are, you get as many as you want, a decent townie can take advantage of this. There is no comparing how scummy certain players are to others, you just lynch them or you don't. I guess it's still early, and I'm still fishing for reads here. Oh and surprise, the only post not advocating to lynch the entire town is to defend chaoser, the ONLY person that agreed with the 'vote for everyone' strategy, after he got pressured by WBG. And by defending him, he explains than chaoser should stop doing just what he was advocating the town to do i.e: vote for everyone that seems scummy. So you spend all your post explaining we should vote for anyone who seems scummy, and you defend chaoser that was doing exactly that by saying "he should focus his attention more". How is that not a huge contradiction ? FoS bumatlarge. On November 17 2011 06:55 Tyrran wrote: Actually, i think that's a good point. However, if kenpachi flips red, i still think we should auto lynch lanaia. We cant let someone that anti voted a scum go free. Also, if lanaia is blue, she will most likely be a priority kill for the mafia ( who now knows she isnt green), and migth not live to see day 2 anyway. Also kenpachi, you're only defense is : "LOL TOWN IS BAD". I seriously hope that you can do better than that. ##Vote Kenpachi On November 18 2011 07:20 Tyrran wrote: So within four hours, we must focus on getting another lynch. We already have 2 people a 8 votes, i suggest we focus on them. Both look scummy, both are in my likely scum list, yet Drazerk voted for Sinani206 so its unlikely that both are scum. First of all, Sinani was a big partisan of dividing our attention . Quite amusingly he used the divide and conquer analogy, where as pointed by WBG, you are suppose to divide you enemy. Meaning we town are the enemy? He Bandwagoned against Lanaia, which as i explained before, is something that is very pro-mafia. Just look at his post just before, when we already established that Lanaia should not be lynched. Both his votes are given without any explanation other than "its obvious". He is either scum or an extremely bad town. Even Drazerk looks good in comparison. I dont think town needs him. ##Vote Sinani206 On November 22 2011 07:19 Tyrran wrote: Also, while I'm at it : ##Vote: Coagulation ##Vote: Sabin010 ##Vote: xsksc You lurkers unburrow just to lynch an innocent WITHOUT any justification at all, and completely disregarding the post where I understand that prp is a potential blue ( yes i called him vigi which he denied but still) and Palmar huge post in his defence. You are either scum or really crappy town, i dont want you in the game either way. I also dislike the look of xsksc->spaackle so far. I think the only original contribution either has made was spaackle's argument of Palmar looking town...which is not the best contribution to have. xsksc's filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=149333 Spaackle takes over: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=164534 I would appreciate it if others would take a look at bluelightz and tell me what they think. I am having trouble seeing how his posts make sense from a town perspective or a scum perspective, which is baffling to me. He seems to really like doing post by post...but then summarizing instead of analyzing. I don't think I've ever seen such a style before. @Cwave Please try to make your posts a bit more clear. I understand that english may not be your native language, but reading your filter hurts my head. Also, a good deal of your logic seems questionable, but I am not sure if that makes you scum yet. Some examples: + Show Spoiler + Palmar creates information spam, useless stuff and usefull stuff. I don't see how that observation by me makes me his buddy? I've played games with Palmar outside of the TL context and he is known for his textwalling and informationgathering skills, no matter what side he is on. Information and interaction is good for our town. Unless Palmar plays very differently outside of TL, I don't see how this can be true.Looking into Palmar his filter, he and Wiggles go off on some sort of duet where they distance eachother and vote for eachother. This logic is flimsy at best.Then they both switch and nothing is said of it and right before Palmar flips, he lists Wiggles as town. Where as before in his filter, nowhere does it come forward that he has really changed his mind or that Wiggles has him convinced that he is town. Seeing as Palmar flipped scum, im thinking MrWiggles might be one of his demonic dancing partners. -snip- In conclusion, these two were giving eachother nothing but hate right up until ~7:30 on the 8th of januari. Looks like a planned and organised move to move the votes of eachother after they created some distance of eachother on day1. He said he would claim. He didnt say he would claim VT like the states in his last post i quoted here. Wonder if that's semantics or a slip that he said he would claim VT against his scumbuddies and then thought he claimed it in here aswell. ...seriously? If he said he would claim, and he is a vt, then "I will claim" and "I will claim vt" are equivalent. Also, how could someone say they are going to claim VT later without having claimed... "Guys, I'm going to claim floridian later, but not yet!" His statement here has no logical thought in it whatsoever. You only have to fear the lynch if you are an angel..... (this quote was said in the context of him/layabout pressuring me) What the fuck? Why wouldn't demons or towns fear being lynched? In short, lynching Risk but hammering RoL is second best option. Syllo doesn't seem to agree on this, why i don't know. Unlike RoL(aka the guy who doesn't post) risk.nuke is still producing reactions and information in the progress, so RoL is a good option in my book. Hence i vote for him at this point as lynchtarget. No, i say Risk is my number one case. Calls Risk his strongest case, then votes for RoL instead...then seems to imply risk.nuke is producing useful information while RoL is not...then reiterates that Risk is his best case. What?If we can lynch him today, i will vote. Also, why did you say this: And then never vote for me? Geez that post came out longer than I expected. Ending with a vote on Tyrran, of course. ##Vote: Tyrran | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 12 2012 04:49 syllogism wrote: None of those posts demonstrate the things you were talking about and aggression against the person who is pushing to lynch you isn't particularly a townie trait. He didn't sound like a vt who was about to be lynched while town was still in a good position. That day one "phew I escaped a lynch" post sounded forced or at best null. He didn't make your top 5 most likely to be scum? You said you would vote for him over RoL at least. Who were your top 5 reads over risk and why didn't you talk about them? How could phew I escaped the lynch sound forced? Every alignment would be relieved to escape the lynch. Hell, when a townie gets lynched instead of you, the only alignment that might not actually be relieved by that result would be another townie. If it sounded forced then it should be townie at best, null at worst. -_- And the first quote I posted is clearly him calling two people red, and you and wiggles town. I don't see how that doesn't show confidence. Third one his agreement with you that Palmar is scum is also pretty clear. For the fourth one, if you are town and someone is tunneling you and getting you mislynched, that kind of response is quite common and you know it. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
I would like to hear a couple scum reads from each of you, along with brief explanations. @Jackal Zbot can count votes from a thread, not sure why Zona chose to use PM's for voting for this game (maybe because of the corrupted town deal?), but so be it. That thing is still fucking cool. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 12 2012 23:20 Tyrran wrote: Okay, I've been asked to make a case, So i'm going to explain here why HarbingerofDoom, despite his name, is an angel. Yes he has been active, and has been tunneling me. Some people migth think that this may him looks town. However, in a three faction game, and especially in this setup, the main goal of ANY faction, is to get rid of the other faction. Therefore, it is quite important for bot angels and demon to scumhunt and get the other faction lynched. I'm going to add something else about the setup that everyone should have realized: Demons wins by corrupting town and lynching angels, Angels win by killing everyone. This means that each time a VT is lynched, it is a failure for demons as well, not only for town. They lose a potential corrupt target, and more importantly they failed to prevent angels from getting closer of winning. Angels on the other hand do not care. Sure they would have prefered to get a demon or blue, but they still have chances to get them with slay and stalk. So my conclusion here is while it is important to properly scumhunt as Demon, Angels can just tunnel someone and be fine with it. If they get their target lynched : best case they killed a blue/demon, worst case a townie, but they are still one step closer to victory. Im not going to focus on Jackal, but the same holds for him : HoD and Jackal have done nothing but tunnelling this game. HoD on me, Jackal on Palmar then Dirzkor. Not only that, but they had NO INTEREST at all about the player that was getting lyched. Here are some example : Day 1 : main Target are risk/palmar/Erandorr Yup, lynch are fine. TUNNEL TYRRAN. Day 2 : Its obvious lycnh are going to be risk or RoL Every day i'm tunnelling... Secondly, his post are full of contradiction, which are for me one of the biggest scumtell. So he tunnels me based on a 1-game Meta, but still admits that meta lynch are unreliable. Wut ? Of course he doesnt want a no-lynch to occurs, that's pretty mach the only bad outcome for angels at the end of day 1. Secondly, notice the "it is my understanding". He was the one to call for a Erandorr lynch based on meta. Yet this makes him look like he wasnt. Thirdly : His reaction after Nigth one is strange, and deceptive. I think you all remember on how his being the AoD is a possibility. Well his reaction after Why does being sent to purgatory bother him? I mean, any regular townie would have been happy to be sent to purgatory as it makes you immune to any nigth actions. So this post alone makes me think that HoD is at least a blue, more likely and angel. Okay, this post is just full of bullshit. I can see plenty of reason for demon to roleblock angels. His post focus on why demons would try to save palmar. The goal of demons is not only to save themself, they also have to prevent angels to win. Banishing them is a good move in this regard as they have a high chance of reducing their KP ( as I stated before, any angel hit, be it town or demon,is actually bad for demon). Secondly you once again makes it sound like angels do not want to target demons. This is plain wrong. They want to get rid of demons. Demons are at least as dangerous for angels than blues. Channeler and courrier have the same ability to RB them, and twister is an anti angel doctor. On the other hand, going for blue gives the risk of killing the demon hunter which is basically working for them early game. You also make it look like angels would not target palmar because he could be lynched day 2. I do not agree. If they have a strong demon read on someone, i think angels would go for it. For once because they cannot be sure that he will be lynched next day ( it could very well have been risk or RoL over palmar again), and secondly because they was no corrupted town yet, finding a blue would be difficult. So because his plays correspond perfectly on how I think angels would play, because he contradict himself, and because he keeps telling shit about angel strategy, I think he is an angel himself. And I think we shoud lynch him tomorrow. Anyway, my lunch break was a bit longer that it should have been, will be back later tonigth. So your case seems to largely revolve around me tunneling you, which is interesting because that doesn't say much about alignment, and if you want to bring meta into it, feel free to look at my play in Election Mafia (as TotallyNotTwoPeople) and Steamship - here's a hint, I focus on the person I think is scummiest. You also conveniently snipped out the part of that post where I talk about other people and pretty well prove I have been extensively reading the thread/filters instead of just tunneling. As for the lack of interest in the person being lynched, that is pure bullshit. I've been pushing you for the lynch, and if you ctrl+f my filter for mentions of Risk, I talk about him plenty. And yes, I have only played one game with Erandorr and he was part of a hydra that game, so I qualified it with "from what I know about him". So he tunnels me based on a 1-game Meta, but still admits that meta lynch are unreliable. Wut ? Already addressed in my filter, but apparently you aren't really reading it. Meta ON RISK is pretty useless because his play style varies so much every game, which as I have already stated IS NOT THE NORM for most players. I also already stated that your actions would be scummy even without accounting for meta. You also say my posts are full of contradiction and then that is the only example you cite. Care to point out the others? What in the fuck? Why does being sent to purgatory bother him? I mean, any regular townie would have been happy to be sent to purgatory as it makes you immune to any nigth actions. So this post alone makes me think that HoD is at least a blue, more likely and angel. Fun tidbit about me - I use "what in the fuck" for confusion, "what the fuck" for annoyance/anger/etc. You might be able to look up other uses of this through my profile, but you might just have to take my word on it. A quick check shows I have used both once in this game so far. Being sent to purgatory didn't bother me, it confused me. I wasn't exactly fearful of night actions night one, I've never been shot night one, demons couldn't corrupt night one, and why would I care if I get investigated? That would just help me prove my innocence. His post focus on why demons would try to save palmar. The goal of demons is not only to save themself, they also have to prevent angels to win. Banishing them is a good move in this regard as they have a high chance of reducing their KP ( as I stated before, any angel hit, be it town or demon,is actually bad for demon). If you think this, I don't know what to tell you. Say a day starts with 1 corrupted town, 3 demons, and 3 angels. In this situation, demons win nearly 100% of the time. Given the fact that there are investigative roles and an anti-corruption role, demons are definitely not looking to drag this game out more than they have to so long as those roles are still alive.Secondly you once again makes it sound like angels do not want to target demons. This is plain wrong. They want to get rid of demons. Demons are at least as dangerous for angels than blues. Channeler and courrier have the same ability to RB them, and twister is an anti angel doctor. On the other hand, going for blue gives the risk of killing the demon hunter which is basically working for them early game. If the demon hunter hits someone, they live, and they weren't banished to purgatory, he knows that person is an angel - no exceptions. He is not working for the angels, he is nearly as anti-angel as he is anti-demon. This has already been pointed out as well. I also don't see how they could find demons to be a bigger threat early game than town. The channeler, seer, and demon hunter combined have about as much anti-angel ability as the entire demon team...and then you have 1 more blue and a bunch of vanillas as well for town. The only way they might consider town less dangerous is the lack of coordination. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
Based on what I have seen of his play/thoughts on other games, I think Blazinghand may genuinely believe his case on RoL is good. | ||
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What? He said an angel hit on a townie was bad for demons, and that is absolutely false. If demons get down to that scenario, they lynch an angel, 2/3 chance they remove a potential kp and win automatically. Then 1/3 chance they get the observer, then angels need to get both hits through the twisting/sending to purgatory, so they need to hit the only 2 unprotected of the 4. So 1/18 total chance of angel win if it gets down to that scenario, and that is assuming they know which one is town out of the 4. Lower if they don't. So if angels hit nothing but town, which he claims is bad for demons, the demons will very likely win. Hell, even if they don't have a corrupted town left alive and it is a regular vt, town gets a minor victory by killing all angels, so it would be the same result anyway unless the townie decides to ignore that minor win condition. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 13 2012 04:52 layabout wrote: Why on earth do you base your decision of "does killing town benefit demons?" on an unrealistic (and in this game impossible) extreme scenario in which there are 3 demons 1 corrupted town and 2 angels left in the game? In order for them to make use of the corrupted town mechanic demons need to corrupt town players. They need these players to be alive to count towards their win condition. All three angels and the sage are immune to corruption. Plus the demons cannot corrupt themselves. The demons get 1 corruption every two nights. As it currently stands: there are 13 non-demons out of 15 players. 9/13 can be corrupted. 3 blues 6 vanillas. it is likely that several of these players will not still be alive by night 4 (the demons next corruption). Killing vanilla town weakens the power of corruption drastically. It reduces the number of players that can be corrupted increasing the chance of is missing. And it increases the proportion of blues and Angels in the player base which increases the chance that demons will be investigated or killed. Demons need to kill 2/4 blues and 3/3 angels and gain a majority with corruption, killing vanilla town is a bad lynch from the demons perspective only a demon or the seer flipping is worse for them. (the value of a channeller lynch for them could be argued either way as the channeller keeps players alive but could stop a corruption). 3 demons, 1 town, 3 angels, not 2 angels. Unrealistic, yes. But just proving the point that demons don't mind townies being dead. Also shows that even if they don't get angels killed early on, as long as they stay alive any death brings them closer to winning. Nowhere does it say if the hit/lynch is on vanilla town - just on town in general, but if you think their corruption being slightly more likely to fail is their primary concern, I think you are quite mistaken. The longer this game goes on with the demon hunter and sage alive, the more likely they are to lose, regardless of their ability to corrupt. They can't kill those people themselves, so they either need to mislynch them, or hope the angels hit them. Assuming the angels use their acolyte to try to kill people with dark powers, which I assure you they will, the proportion of blues will go down, not up. Yes, the sage can't be killed with that, but he can be killed by the AoD, and I doubt the demons would mind the demon hunter or channeler ending up dead. You stress they need those players alive to count for their win condition, which is true, but you ignore the other half of their win condition. They/their corrupted minions need to outnumber the remaining players in the game. So they want the number of remaining players to be as small as possible. tl;dr: Holy fuck they don't need to corrupt anyone to win this game, and they want to survive while everyone else dies, not make this game last a bajillion days. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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I understand you think RoL is scum and all, but don't you think it might be useful to look through the other filters as well? In case you see something that makes someone else a better target than him, or that exonerates RoL in some way? Focus is fine, pure tunneling is not. I'm focused on Tyrran, but I read everyone else's filter at least once before making my giant post, and have read at least a half dozen of them again since making it. Also, your filter just hit page 15 and this is a 72 page thread in an 18 player game. -just saying- | ||
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On January 13 2012 08:35 layabout wrote: Your bullshit score is under 5% congrats. If i were to suggest to you that the majority of HoD's post are about "safe" or irrelevant issues that do not require him to take a stance; That he draws and promotes strange conclusions; that a lot of his interaction's and question answering ignore the issue at hand; that he picks up on non-issues and tries to uses that to defeat arguments; and that misrepresents scenario's or mis-applies concepts like occam's razor you would say what? I posted my top four (if I am recalling the number correctly) scum reads in the thread, I commented on both the RoL and the Risk.Nuke cases, I voted to lynch Erandorr, I voted to lynch Tyrran, I have stated I believe Syllo to most likely be town, I don't know if I directly stated it but I believe Blazinghand to be town as well. On January 13 2012 08:49 syllogism wrote: HoD you asked Grackaroni, Spaackle and Cwave for their scum reads and they mostly didn't materialize. Do you not care? You have been quite detached from the game; certainly not one I would characterize as someone who attempts to produce information and then do something with it. Indeed you seem to put most of your efforts into defending yourself or arguing about irrelevant game mechanics/strategy issues. I have limited time, and people keep asking me about that shit so I answer them. I should probably just ignore them though. Spaackle and Grackaroni replied. Cwave is the only one that ignored me, but that's fine for now. | ||
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On January 13 2012 08:53 syllogism wrote: Limited time and instantly delurk Yup. Today was a slower day than they have been lately, and the timing is coincidental, had you stated that an hour or two ago I would not have replied instantly. If it was instant delurk I also would have responded to layabout as soon as he posted. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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I snipped the example posts and the intro part, as they were not necessary to show that his case is simply reused material. If you want to see the whole thing along with my response to it, click: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=71#1414 On January 12 2012 23:20 Tyrran wrote: -snipped intro- HoD and Jackal have done nothing but tunnelling this game. HoD on me, Jackal on Palmar then Dirzkor. Not only that, but they had NO INTEREST at all about the player that was getting lyched. Here are some example : -snipped examples- + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2012 20:31 syllogism wrote: Harbingerofdoom's refusal to vote for Risk seems quite bad as well. He is still ignoring risk and not really explaining why. On January 09 2012 04:57 layabout wrote: Well.. i made a slight error here (RoL had said he would vote for erandor here but he never voted) Erandor had four votes when HoD voted: Grackaroni, Blazinghand, Tyrran and Cwave Risk.nuke had 6 votes:syllogism, Refallen, Dirkzor, Zephirdd, layabout, Erandorr, @HoD your primary reasoning was to that to avoid a no-lynch you would vote for Erandorr because you were "fine with lynching him" in light of all of the pressure of risk.nuke why didn't you comment on it? if you wanted to avoid the no-lynch why did you vote Erandorr rather than voting for risk, who had the most votes? Secondly, his post are full of contradiction, which are for me one of the biggest scumtell. -snipped examples- So he tunnels me based on a 1-game Meta, but still admits that meta lynch are unreliable. Wut ? + Show Spoiler + On January 09 2012 04:32 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: I am not pretending it is pure meta. I am saying his meta confuses the shit out of me so I am not confident in my read on him. And my post said what I think of him now. On January 12 2012 04:42 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: gasdjafeaiuhfaisdf ...you think a guy who nearly got lynched wasn't interested in the lynch? Are you being serious right now? Yup, no confidence in any of those, certainly no aggressive tones or anything either. Also, as I stated before, Risk's play varies quite widely from game to game, despite him having been town in every game I have played with him. That is certainly not the norm for most players. But, the real deciding factor for me was nothing to do with that, it was simply that Risk's play seemed to be explainable from the perspective of a townie on the verge of being lynched and frustrated at having to defend himself. Knowing my own alignment, it was also odd to me that I was his main defender, I figured if he was scum surely a scum buddy would support my defense of him. Obviously that point doesn't get to apply to other people though, as they don't know my alignment. Was I sold on him being town? No, but he also didn't make my top 5 most likely to be scum. Tyrran on the other hand was doing that shit with me being the only real source of pressure on him. Of course he doesnt want a no-lynch to occurs, that's pretty mach the only bad outcome for angels at the end of day 1. Secondly, notice the "it is my understanding". He was the one to call for a Erandorr lynch based on meta. Yet this makes him look like he wasnt. + Show Spoiler + Ok, so this part isn't completely copy-pasted, it is just dumb reasoning, close enough. I'm sure if I said I wanted a no-lynch he'd say of course you do, lynching is our only way of killing angels! Thirdly : His reaction after Nigth one is strange, and deceptive. + Show Spoiler + If he was only talking about the "What in the fuck" part, I gave my explanation of that in the post linked at the start of this one, and then the following quote does not apply. However, I am kinda assuming it was also due to my continued discussion of it, in which case this does apply. On January 10 2012 03:51 layabout wrote: What Purpose does the Post "Why I think I was put in purgatory" serve? How does it help town? I think Palmar and/or his team mistakenly believed that I was the demon hunter due to these posts: You connect the idea of you being sent to purgatory* with the idea that your posting caused the demons to think that you were the demon hunter. You present the idea of your posts being responsible for the angels banishing you because you have made them think that you were the demonhunter. From this it would easily be infered that you posted TO make them think you were they demon hunter. You then say To me this seems like gloating because you associate the demons thinking that you were the demon hunter (which is WIFOM and total speculation) with a demon being lynched I don't see how this helps town but i do see how you associate your posting at the start of the game and a demon flipping and how this tries to put you in a better light despite the fact that your decisions about how to behave were almost certainly not made with that goal in mind and if they were the actual chance of them acheiving the result of a dead demon is next to none. That is why i see it as gloating. Speculation about scum motivation and scum goals when they commit actions that will be subject to scrutiny is what part of your post is and is almost the perfect example of WIFOM. *which could have been because either the channeller though you were a town asset to protect or a demon or angel to roleblock OR the demons felt that you were a blue or an angel OR you were targeted by one of the two because they felt night actions would land on you and they wished to roleblock those targerting you OR they may have simply wanted increase attention on you. There is a plethora of reasons that could be the case and without addition information we cannot rule many out. If the demons send a player to purgatory they know towwn will find out and this will impact their decision making. Okay, this post is just full of bullshit. I can see plenty of reason for demon to roleblock angels. + Show Spoiler + On January 10 2012 04:32 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: ...but there is literally a 0% chance of angels knowing which demon role Palmar was before he flipped so that is irrelevant. And you hit blues over demons because the seer, demon hunter, and channeler are all incredibly potent town assets against angels, and demons being alive gives you valid targets to scum hunt and get lynched instead of your teammates. If town is weak, sure, they might start killing off some demons on purpose, but them doing so now would be stupid. I elaborated point 3 because it was the only one that might actually be worth a damn to the demons. Now, unless anyone has specific questions for me or actually wants to lynch me instead of just saying "I think he might be an angel" and then doing nothing about it, I will no longer be mentioning my trip to purgatory/what I think the reasoning behind it is and will instead focus on more useful shit. On January 12 2012 05:41 syllogism wrote: Trolololol.Tyrran post a case on someone you would like to be lynched tomorrow and it can't be Jackal and it can't be copy/pasted material like everything else you've said so far. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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First of all : "Assuming the angels use their acolyte to try to kill people with dark powers, which I assure you they will " If this isnt a angel claim, then i dont know what it is. Do what you want with your acolyte, but I really do not see why blues are priority target and demons/corrupted town are not. Killing the DH early would be really bad for angels. Killing a corrupted town however is really good for them. Why wouldnt they try to reduce the demons voting power ? You consider that claiming to be angel, and then you assert that they will go after demons/corrupted town instead, as well as assigning 0% probability to them targeting syllo night one. So I make an assertion about their decisions, it is me claiming angel, but when you do it then it is totally fine? Secondly : Wtf if this tl:dr ? Demons should win without using corrupt ? Are you going to argue next that Angels should win wihtout killing anyone ? I look forward to you hosting a normal game where scum has no KP and town has vigs because " well scum can just survive while everyone else dies". I said don't need to, as in it is possible for them to win without it, not should. Don't twist my words.This is your ultimate argument ? That my case against you did not fullfill the Syllogism's standard and therefore is, I quote : "Trolololol". Well, that sure makes you look town. I just found it amusing that after being specifically told to not make more 'contributions' using arguments that have already been made, you then do just that. That wasn't my ultimate argument, my argument was my long response post, obviously.Lastly : So Syllo is not AoD. Would the AoD have targeted Syllo N1 ? If you consider that 1) Syllo was very likely getting banished and 2) Syllo was pushing for lynching 3 non angel target ( palmar(Demon), Erandorr(VT), Risk(VT), ). There was absolutely no reason for AoD to shoot him N1. So either you are AoD, or he shot you. The only reason he would have shot you is by shooting randomly ( as you had no reason to be killed prior to any other player), meaning there was a 1/10th of a chance that you would get hit. This is just dumb.So it boils down to this: Either you are AoD, or you got shot which had about 10% chance of happening. Well, math says that there is 90% chance you are AoD. Also, I am beginning to think all of Tyrran's ridiculous statements such as saying there is no way Syllo would be targeted night one, or that every night kill is bad for demons are more likely to be just poor reasoning than a charade as scum. I just don't see how scum could be making all these bizarre assertions. | ||
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I am the sage. On January 11 2012 14:02 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @RoL See this post for the current time remaining in the day: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603#6 Anyway, I got the chance to spend some time today doing a bunch of rereading, and after doing so I will not be voting for RoL nor Risk today. Maybe I'm being dense, but I really don't see them as being leading candidates for flipping scum. If I end up having to choose between the two to avoid a no lynch, I favor lynching Risk over RoL, but I'd prefer to lynch neither. -snip- Geez that post came out longer than I expected. Ending with a vote on Tyrran, of course. ##Vote: Tyrran On January 11 2012 14:02 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @RoL See -snip- On January 12 2012 04:16 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Alright -snipped- On January 12 2012 04:42 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: gasdjafeaiuhfaisdf -snipped- On January 12 2012 04:54 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Err, -snipped- Night 1 I was banished so my investigation failed, but I tried to investigate Tyrran. Night 2 I investigated Grackaroni and got not-demon. Carry on. | ||
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On January 14 2012 13:49 Refallen wrote: This was the post where you claimed you breadcrumbed sage...because like, four of the first letters in 22 sentences just happen to make up sage! I'm not convinced v.v That one and 3 others. First two and last two sentences in that post, and also the S from that post and then the next 3 posts I made. Not enough words start with g T_T | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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How have I been invisible? People have been accusing me ever since the no-kill night one where I was in purgatory and I have been responding. | ||
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On January 14 2012 18:34 Blazinghand wrote: Anyone who thinks that breadcrumbs are a reasonable explanation or support for a claim needs to spend some more time thinking. A good scum player breadcrumbs every blue role during the start of the game, then points them out if he wants to claim. This should be obvious. The real question we should be asking is: Where did HoD breadcrumb his investigative results in the event of being shot by the acolyte? Read the OP. The acolyte can't kill me. Investigation result: On January 14 2012 07:26 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: (Although I did reread his filter as well)Grackaroni is also less likely scum than I previously thought, I reread his filter and looked through his filters from his previous games and overall he seems ok. Don't have time to explain more now, but wanted to at least say that before I had to leave for like 5 hours or so. And yes, clearly I breadcrumbed sage before killing wiggles with no way of knowing what his role would be, and then just so happened to get super lucky and killed the sage and that is why there is no counter-claim. Makes perfect sense. And it also makes perfect sense that you found scum with 2 teammates alive and yet you were nearly able to lynch me in a mere 6 hours with the help of people like Zephirrd, who, 6 hours prior to voting for me, said this: I like Grack's case on Spaackle; I still have a hard time to understand why HoD was jailed n1, and by who. Maybe his posts about mechanics made Palmar want him roleblocked? No idea, but I can't see HoD as scum from his filter. Yeah, that's not suspicious at all.@Syllo I put barely any effort into my defense because I had about 45 minutes during which time I also had to get shit ready to head back out. Alright, Harbingerofdoom's only scum read in the last few days has been Tyrran and now he isn't so sure any more. He doesn't think blazing is scum. Probably not Grackaroni. RoL? Nope. Cwave? Err, no HoD didn't really say that either, though apparently he was one of the people he would have lynched over risk. Spaackle? He dislikes "the look of spaackle", asks him a question and doesn't follow up. No scum anywhere apparently I mostly work by process of elimination. And the list of people I cast suspicion on included much of the same reads as the list you made shortly after. Clearly I came up with largely the same reads by doing no scum-hunting whatsoever. Tyrran finally bothered to defend himself, Cwave died and flipped green, and Grackaroni I investigated and got not-demon. So yeah, that obviously changed some shit. Feel free to count all the people I list as scum up through the end of day 3 in election mafia btw.But, since it seems like you really want it, 5 scum remain, I will post my bottom 6: Zephirdd xsksc replaced by Spaackle layabout Bluelightz Jackal58 RebirthOfLeGenD | ||
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Do you want me to vote now, or wait? | ||
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On January 15 2012 03:50 syllogism wrote: I did not and we've a reason to believe that Wiggles was the sage. Are you going to spend your time today posting analysis or are you going to be really busy again? Look, Thursday of last week I went to a Bruin's game, my work won a new contract on Friday of last week and my girlfriend's birthday was on Tuesday of this week. We went out Tuesday, and attended dinner parties last night and on Sunday, her birthday party was Saturday, and I met up with a friend for dinner on Thursday, so yes, I have been a bit absent. I honestly don't give a fuck if you think that makes me scum. That being said, I only have about an hour before I have to head out to do grocery shopping and such. I'll do what I can and then vote RoL for you before I leave. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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On January 14 2012 03:53 Zephirdd wrote: HoD is not scumI just think it's a waste of game mechanics; Killing someone who people didn't knew would create a bigger confusion, as in "we don't know how many demons live". MrWiggles was obviously not a Demon, so it is kind of a waste of a mechanic. Granted, we don't know if he was a blue, but I don't think it matters as much at this point. I like Grack's case on Spaackle; I still have a hard time to understand why HoD was jailed n1, and by who. Maybe his posts about mechanics made Palmar want him roleblocked? No idea, but I can't see HoD as scum from his filter. RoL still looks like the best lynch, but we'll see what happens. No wait, scum. Because I've been 'invisible'?: On January 14 2012 10:04 Zephirdd wrote: I'm playing billiards with a couple of friends atm, finding some time to post in between. If you care, I'm crushing them hard. HoD has been basically invisible this game; nothing about him, besides the jailing, stands out. However, it makes a lot of sense that AoD would target you. HOWEVER, being "invisible" is usually a scum trait. So yeah, I'm willing to vote him; I really want to see his response though I've said it before, and I'll say it again though. Take a good look at Spaackle's posting, now and in the future. Also lol @ layabout being serious about that scum flip probability. How you apply math on something so inexact, I have no idea. ~>Voting HoD as of now J/K, not scum: On January 14 2012 13:51 Zephirdd wrote: Time elapsed: 10 hoursUnvoting HoD for the following reasons A) Less chance of ninja scum hammering B) I want to hear other people's(esp. syllo) thoughts on this C) I fail to understand why is it so hard to believe that the AoD targeted syllo night 1, instead of HoD=AoD I'm sleepy atm, so I'll brb tomorrow. Mb I should leave my vote back on Spaackle. Actually, yeah, I'll do that. 'night On January 10 2012 02:27 Zephirdd wrote: Uh huh...Yes, I know I am on that list as well, but that's just because I was this close to sucking him yesterday after his case. That was due to the XLVIII fiasco and I told myself "listen to veterans you know". I swear I'd probably end up helping demons this game, had Palmar not died. On January 11 2012 03:24 Zephirdd wrote: Passing some responsibility.Syllogism, sir Lynch leader, please explain this situation. Anyone else is also invited to do so. On January 14 2012 09:23 Zephirdd wrote: Hey guys, don't blame me if I am wrong, I'm always wrong!Let me be clear tho; I don't like to create new cases even though I'm willing to take responsibility for it. Reason is simple: 100% of cases I have made by myself were wrong. AKA. I don't trust myself. He is clearly avoiding blame for any of the lynches, and he went from stating I am not scum to voting for me as soon as my lynch started gaining some traction. Then, immediately unvotes with my claim and again implies he thinks it is likely I am not the angel of death. Nothing very town-like about that. | ||
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Gotta go meet up with my gf to run errands now, not sure when I will be back. | ||
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I haven't reread filters, but currently I'm still liking HoD/RoL/Zephirdd as the angel team and Grackaroni and/or Tyrran as demon(s) and then one or two others. If HoD/RoL both flip angel, which should be clear by the end of tomorrow, there's a high chance of Zephirdd being the third and not just because his strange behaviour before the lynch. Grackaroni is 100% not a demon. If you need to lynch me tomorrow to prove it, then so be it. | ||
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On January 14 2012 19:23 syllogism wrote: Syllo...why in the hell would he want the demon hunter to hit someone he got not-demon on? Wouldn't he prefer the seer over someone that will kill the person if he is wrong on his scum-read? I know I sure as hell don't want Grackaroni getting stabbed by the demon hunter. And why would he say this if he knows he has a 0% chance of flipping demon?Wiggles warned about trusting breadcrumbing and posted this on n2 I think he investigated RoL on n1 and got not-demon It also solves the problem of having to convince people to lynch him if he flips demon I have no idea how you think this is him breadcrumbing a not-demon check. | ||
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I'd like to hear an explanation for your bullshit score. Have you ever tested the results of something similar in any other game? If so, did it work well for finding scum? Do you have any reason to believe it will accomplish anything? How did you come up with the point values? Why do you think calculating these scores is in any way a good use of your time? It seems to me to only serve as a way to scum-hunt without actually doing so. Hell, a decent number of things in it are also subjective, letting you twist scores as you please. On January 14 2012 22:52 layabout wrote: ...?I will vote just before 8:00 KST. You will know why. On January 15 2012 06:47 syllogism wrote: Lol, you told me to vote RoL or I was getting lynched, what did you want me to do before the lynch? Build a case on someone that if I voted for you'd lynch me?He said he won't post until tomorrow, so basically HoD and RoL both gave excuses for not doing anything before the lynch. Likely because they feel it's wasted effort as they don't have towns interest in mind. 3.Grack (Leaning Town) He is not a demon. I am the sage, not seer. What is with people calling me the seer?HoD said that grack was not angel, but what if he is a demon?. He has been sheeping but, how he post's make me lean town. | ||
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On January 15 2012 19:38 syllogism wrote: Oh gosh, I'm not playing like I did in my first game ever where I led town to a loss? I wonder why? I already mentioned my first game is a shitty place to get meta on me. You're doing the same thing you did to risk to me right now, you have the conclusion already in your mind and are twisting everything I do to match it. Try rereading my filter with the perspective of "is busier than normal and is the sage", and see if my posts make more sense from that perspective or the "is the angel of death" perspective.HoD: I don't know why you bother arguing about your role as if you aren't the AoD, you will be cleared by the day post. You keep making excuses for your activity and still find yourself unable to call anyone scum. Are you going to be busy tonight? Can we expect you to make some real cases in which you actually reach a conclusion? You know something like this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12135649 I am the sage. I am no other role. I argue it because it is true. Now if you'll excuse me I have to read some filters to try to gauge who is most likely to be a demon and yet will not be stabbed in the face by the demon hunter, just in case RoL was telling the truth and I am not getting banished tonight. | ||
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On January 15 2012 21:43 layabout wrote: I am not quite sure what you mean... I said i would vote at that time I did not wish to vote earlier because the last early lynch ruined the atmosphere and killed activity. It also meant that by 8:00KST the lynch would almost certainly happen, which would give RoL plenty of time to help us if he wanted to. He didn't. Also why is HoD trying calling me scummy for using my 250th post to articulate a bullshit law? It's literally called "Laybout's Bullshit law". It is based entirely on Bullshit. I haven't used it to scumhunt whatsoever. But doing it lightens up the reading though filters process and allows me to highlight things i think players have done/said that are misleading bad or wrong etc... So you haven't used it to scumhunt at all, but you use it to help you find things you think are scummy that people have done while reading through their filters? Isn't that often called scumhunting? I'm a little confused by your statement here. Do you mean you haven't used the actual bullshit score at all, but you have used the process of looking for all the various points you outlined in it? Or I am misreading what you're saying here? I was also not aware that was your 250th post use, and you have mentioned it at least half a dozen times since first writing it, so I kinda figured you're doing something with it rather than just filling the thread with useless spam about it. | ||
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On January 16 2012 04:29 syllogism wrote: That's not a meta argument at all; you can pretend the link isn't there and it is just as valid reason to believe your play isn't consistent with that of a townie. What you wrote about Tyrran applies quite well to you as well Even when you were in danger of being lynched you didn't particularly care Just like Risk didn't care, amiright? | ||
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On January 16 2012 04:49 syllogism wrote: Yes, you realize these are heuristics and can not conclusively determine alignment. Anyway, the hostility seems unnecessary considering it's your own lack of commitment to the game that has lead you to this point if you are town. Whether you have been busy is irrelevant and I strongly dislike people who keep making excuses for their activity day after day. You chose to join this game. Moreover, day post should clear some suspicion of you if you are town, so again you should concentrate on what matters rather than attacking someone who is clearly town. No, it is the no AoD kill night 1 + me in purgatory combined with me not in purgatory night 2 + AoD kill that got me here. And that is why this is fucking annoying, because I had no control over that. You at one point even explicitly stated you had no problem with my posting so far, unless that was a lie. And I'm pretty sure I've been more active than refallen, dirkzor, jackal, bluelightz, tyrran, grackaroni, zephirrd, and spaackle. Less active than I usually am? Yes. Missed being around at some key times? Yes. But I have still been pretty damn active. And what matters to me is convincing the single most influential person in this town, whom I also believe to be town, that he is mistaken on trying to lynch me. If you lynch me, you lynch the sage, I think that's pretty damn important to avoid and matters quite a bit. | ||
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On January 16 2012 11:19 Grackaroni wrote: I'm pretty suspicious of you're check HoD. @HoD : Why did you choose to check Layabout? What led you believe he was a demon? Who wants the sage dead more than demons do? Nobody. Who wants me dead more than layabout does? Nobody. From a demon perspective I am either angel or sage, demons need both dead. Layabout is acting like somebody who needs me dead. Also, I figured if he wasn't a demon, then he was likely corrupted town due to this: On January 14 2012 22:52 layabout wrote: And thus I would either identify a demon (good) or cleanse a corrupted town (also good).I will vote just before 8:00 KST. You will know why. | ||
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On January 06 2012 22:47 layabout wrote: having read through recent townie Palmar games: nothing to see here (clicky) Palmar trolls and call people stupid stundent mafia he was smurfing as electric black Palmar make lots of reads election mafia read about half of this and filtered syllo+palamar hyra Arctocod, run for major and call people stupid Steamship mafia Palmar analyses and calls people stupid TL Mafia XLVII Palmar runs for major and calls people stupid I have seen quite a lot of variability in how town Palmar behaves, after these i read resistance I(which isn't quite mafia) and responsibilty mafia in which palmar was 3rd party/scum. In those games i could not confidently make inferences about his meta and correctly use them to determine whether he is scum or town, because there was not enough common day1 town traits that have become clear to me in the games of his i have read through, thoroughly. This was largely due to the variance in his play on day1. I feel like i have spent quite a lot of time reading through his post but i feel like i would need to do more to establish a strong read based on his meta that i would confidently support. On January 06 2012 22:14 layabout wrote: What do all of these players have in common? Blazinghand Bluelightz Dirkzor(?) Grackaroni HarbingerOfDoom layabout Tyrran xsksc Zephirdd To my knowledge they (we) are all relatively new to TL mafia having played a small number of games each. It seems highly unlikely that any of us will have read a large enough number of games to have strong understanding of any other players meta. If you do not have a strong understanding of a certain players meta you cannot use your own judgement of that players meta against them. You cannot compare their play to your idea of their meta and reach a conclusion. Instead you are reliant on other players assessment of that player meta and how their play this game is supposedly incriminating. As town you should be reliant on your own judgements and reach your own conclusions and you should not vote entirely because somebody else has a reason that you cannot verify*. Furthermore despite my limited experience of your various playstyles even i was able to spot an error in Wiggles "meta analysis Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. Apparently he often trolls day1 anyway? If players who feel that they know his meta disagree about what his meta is how can i or the others trust them? Simply, voting for a player based soley on meta that does not come from your own judgements instead of voting based on your own judgements is either bad town play or scum play. Mr. Wiggles is encouraging people to vote for bad reasons (from their perspective) since at least half of the players in the thread have an extremely low chance of having solid enough meta on Palmar and Palmar isn't going to vote for himself, then the majority of town cannot justify an entirely meta based case vote on day 1. -Similarly i cannot justify voting based on risk.nuke's meta. -As far as i am concerned Grackaroni doesn't have any points worth considering against HoD. -I also see no case against RoL. Therefore we should go for a proper case with reasons that we can support, instead. We should lynch Grackaroni. *well you could verify it by spending a long time going through past games but i doubt that anyone has the time nor the effort to spare to do so``` ```are footnotes within footnotes better or worse than spoilers within spoilers? Clearly defending Palmar day 1. | ||
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You're right layabout, I should have been cared about the lynch day 2 as much as you did and not place a vote at any point during the day. That shows you care a lot more than I do. I also liked that part where you didn't include this day 1 post of mine and then claim I never gave reasons for why Tyrran was scummy until the large day 2 post I made. On January 07 2012 15:03 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: No, I accused you of being non-aggressive/passive, not of being inactive. Saying that you weren't very active at first in steamship doesn't have any bearing on the argument I am making. Comparing these posts, which were 2 of your first 4 posts in steamship: + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2011 04:01 Tyrran wrote: What kind of defense is that ? No, I dont know what is in your head. The only reason you gave for not lynching lurkers is it "I'm sure some of the lurkers are blues". And we are not speaking of lynching them rigth now, but more toward the end of day 1. Not being active is one of the easiest way for mafia player to stay under the radar. we should prevent taht as much as possible. And blues, stay active, dont get lynched. On November 16 2011 20:07 Tyrran wrote: So you were a fervent defender of only lynching 'scummy' lurkers. And now you suddenly decide to vote for kenpachi without giving any reason Could you please detail a bit more on why you like kenpachi as a vote, other than the fact that he did not post much ? His townie claim basically does not mean anything Keeping an eyes on lurkers is good, but i would wait to the end on day 1(the last 24 hours) before voting for one of them. It seems to me that blanket voting this early on day one can only lead us divide our attention. Voting for someone whenever he says something strange without trying to pressure him more/confirm him as scum is a great way to lynch a lot of townies and seems to be a good strategy for the mafia side, but not that great for town ( obviously). Bumatlarge espescially has been trying to push the town into lynching as many people as possible. Almost each one of his post include a quote on how we should lynch every single player. Spoiler below shows some example from this filter : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=31777 + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2011 10:36 bumatlarge wrote: Why would you FoS when you can just vote them. Don't be pansies. Realized I didn't properly vote. I doubt I will ever take my vote off of kenpachi, it's not that I don't like him, but he is not an asset to the town at the moment, or the forseeable future. Nisani has proceeded to call me dumb or scum, but that doesn't change the fact that his fluffy posts stick out, so it will stay there until he remedies it. ##Vote: Kenpachi ##Vote: Nisani201 And this Is why LAL is bad. What possible reason would cause mafia to post this instead of town. By all means keep up the detective work and checking out all the inconsistencies, but use a little sense. This definetely contradicts itself, and it could very well be an intentional lie, but even that doesn't make him scum. The bad strategy reason tht DCL brought up is actually something to go on. You are pushing your luck by trying to find lies a day into the game. Use that energy to filter a suspicious person instead and get a general vibe, and see if their future posts push you one way or the other. If there wasn't a majority lynch in play, I'd put my vote on everyone, and start taking off people who don't register as scum. That's about how many people I think should be lynched each day. On November 16 2011 02:32 bumatlarge wrote: Next person that mentions LAL is getting a vote placed on them. Seriously enough with the useless shit. We will be lynching however many scummy people we can find on the particular day. We are restricting ourselves when we don't have a clue as to what our boundaries are. Nisani has posted complete fluff and none of it shows any effort in actually heling town. I don't think the new people are brain-dead, so unless the specifically ask about something, don't use them as an excuse to post asinine shit. Oh, hi kibbibit ##Vote Nisani201 On November 16 2011 12:37 bumatlarge wrote: We got 48 hours from now, right? This time tomorrow we need to look at the votes and see where people stand. I'm honestly surprised how few votes there are, you get as many as you want, a decent townie can take advantage of this. There is no comparing how scummy certain players are to others, you just lynch them or you don't. I guess it's still early, and I'm still fishing for reads here. Oh and surprise, the only post not advocating to lynch the entire town is to defend chaoser, the ONLY person that agreed with the 'vote for everyone' strategy, after he got pressured by WBG. And by defending him, he explains than chaoser should stop doing just what he was advocating the town to do i.e: vote for everyone that seems scummy. So you spend all your post explaining we should vote for anyone who seems scummy, and you defend chaoser that was doing exactly that by saying "he should focus his attention more". How is that not a huge contradiction ? FoS bumatlarge. to your play so far just seems incredibly different. It reads to me like you are playing scared this game. Scared because you're scum. Don't comment on things you don't know about, it makes you look bad. Underlined: In steamship, if town had lynched those 7 players you would have killed zephird, Greymist and cyber cheese, since Greymists role is what killed town after the roleclaim then that plan arguably would have won the game, so i don't get what your point is. If we lynched them all in one day the platform collapses and nobody gets lynched instead of all of them getting lynched, wasting an entire day. The OP hinted at this by saying there were dangers in store for a town that lynches too many people in one day, but RoL suggested lynching 7 at once.his original question was "Hey look - a list! Care to explain anything about it? Lists without reasons are pretty useless filler." You think a vague question that requires a contribution to answer it is useless, but a vague challenge to make a contribution is good, I see, I see.I wanted to make the point that given how vague this question was and given that i had raised suspicions about the players in the list i felt that it was redundant question. I then challenged him to make his first real contribution. But alas my inept typing/formatting let me down. And like every other person to lose an argument ever he corrects my grammar and ignores my point. Underlined:Clearly a lot of people didn't have null reads on risk nuke as he had reached 9 votes before AND was under a lot of pressure at this time AND was lynched quite a while before the lynch deadline. And not a lot of people here have played 4 out of 4 of their games with risk in them either. What's your point?On January 06 2012 05:26 layabout wrote: Grackaroni: In this post his writes a pile of nothing to call HoD scum. my comments have been italicised Emphasises the "Unless you have a counter" part. As if that justifies the don't talk about scum strats in an open setup stance. (it doesn't) So earlier you thought it made sense from a town perspective, now you disagree with it?bolded: "Don't use meta from my first (but recent) game against me. I have changed. Use meta from a game where i was account sharing day1 when you try to analyse my day1 play, or use meta from another game". The "I've obviously adjusted my play" really doesn't hold weight given how few games he has played. Earlier it was weak to use it, now it is fine, I see...The sage on the other hand probably shouldn't claim unless he has 2 demons identified. If he claims with only one identified, 0% chance of reducing kp or reducing the corruption ability, demons have a roleblock ability, angels can kill the sage to make demons a larger threat to town thereby reducing focus on them. Still gain information obviously, but overall seems like a much weaker play than the seer claiming after finding an angel. The above was a statement I made day 1.When he said just that the sage should not claim without two "demon" results? The demon role-blocker is dead, and I had about 45 minutes to defend myself from a lynch before I had to leave again, clearly I should have not claimed and died instead. Makes perfect sense.If he was the sage it would make sense to add, "if they are going to be lynched then the sage should claim" because that is what he claims he is doing now. According to day1 HoD the sage should not have claimed in day 3 HoD's position. Day3 HoD had zero demons identified. top part just isn't valid. I needed something that started with a g to continue my breadcrumb. Keyboard mashing was the easiest g beginning I could come up with that made sense in the context+ you had no reason to mash your keyboard as if the other person is wrong and can't see it because you are wrong. He posts what i think are townreads? Which is odd because he has called Spack and BL scum RoL is getting lynched instead of him, he hasn't commented on jackal other than (he was right about Palmar) and he then starts to attack me.. It clearly states scum reads, but I guess I should know by now not to expect much reading comprehension from you. ...in fact in the same post you post the correct interpretation: You then post very little to called Zephird, one of your bottom 6 un-town-like Why contradict yourself within the same post?I can respond to more points of it if needed, but I think that is sufficient for now. | ||
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Layabout was twisted last night. Grackaroni is not a demon. These are the facts I have for the town, if you don't want to accept them then so be it, but they are all facts. I think this makes layabout fairly likely to be a demon, but it is possible they were merely guessing who I would check. Regardless, we need to focus on lynching an angel today. @Layabout Syllo was also arguing that I was scum-buddies with RoL, a scenario that is now known by all to be 100% impossible, so don't go using his assumptions as the basis for your argument. I don't care whether you are demon or town right now, all I know is you are not an angel, and I am not an angel, and we really must kill an angel today. So let's do that, shall we? Hell, if you think I am an angel so much, please point out one of my angel scum buddies and let's lynch the shit out of him, ok? | ||
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Well, first of all I am the sage so it was 100% impossible to begin with. But, RoL was either the channeler, or scum. If he was the channeler, obviously we can't be scum buddies, regardless of my alignment. If he was scum, then wiggles was the channeler and nobody has counterclaimed me, which therefore requires me being the sage. Or, you know, the sage to be absolutely fucking retarded. | ||
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On January 16 2012 05:16 syllogism wrote: If you are town, you should examine the wagon on you before you claimed and what people were saying. Actually I'm now reading it a bit and this is somewhat changing my view on things | ||
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Look at this: On January 14 2012 10:03 Grackaroni wrote: EBWOP : in case I didn't make it clear. ##Vote: HarbingerOfDoom he has a good chance of being the AoD and nobody wants to vote the people I think are likely to be scum. On January 14 2012 03:53 Zephirdd wrote: Then votes for me within the next 6 hours or so.I just think it's a waste of game mechanics; Killing someone who people didn't knew would create a bigger confusion, as in "we don't know how many demons live". MrWiggles was obviously not a Demon, so it is kind of a waste of a mechanic. Granted, we don't know if he was a blue, but I don't think it matters as much at this point. I like Grack's case on Spaackle; I still have a hard time to understand why HoD was jailed n1, and by who. Maybe his posts about mechanics made Palmar want him roleblocked? No idea, but I can't see HoD as scum from his filter. RoL still looks like the best lynch, but we'll see what happens. On January 14 2012 10:24 Bluelightz wrote: @LB I'm back and should I vote? On January 14 2012 10:27 Bluelightz wrote: Okay, i'll wait for more people to start posting. Also, can you link me to cases against HoD? On January 14 2012 10:33 Bluelightz wrote: "Hey everybody let's lynch HoD cmon" On January 15 2012 04:03 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Fine, and yes, tomorrow you will get more from me. Significantly more. If you want, I can post all my suspects tomorrow but it doesn't make much sense when we can only lynch one at a time, but I will get around to it. I work all weak between the hours of 12-6 roughly, but around those times I will work in more analysis. HoD, your claim seems of desperation and as I pointed out the correlation between you and BH and him not mentioning you at all for the last 3 pages of his filter don't sit right. That, and I know you are a better lynch than me. On January 14 2012 10:49 Refallen wrote: Honestly I don't know what to think of Bluelightz. He dosen't make any sense to me at all. I feel like no one is going to oppose lynching him, but then he might just as likely flip town vanilla, something that has happened countless times when we tried to go after people who aren't making any sense (again, election mafia comes to mind here). That being said, HoD now has 5 votes. Tyrran and Grackaroni I'm not sure of, but I'm fairly certain layabout, syllo, and Zeph are all town. Jackal, what do you think of us two hammering? I feel like a switch is unlikely at this point. Does that sound like a bunch of valid supporters to you, all wanting to lynch me for being scum? | ||
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I already told you he wasn't a demon. | ||
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I am not sure how to distinguish the AoD from any other angels, but I am rereading through the thread and filters now to see what might be some reasonable angel scum teams. AoD would be ideal, but I'll settle for any of them being lynched. Oh yeah, and Wiggles is guaranteed to have been town-aligned. Angels wouldn't kill one of their own, and the twister and the concealer were alive during the day yesterday (concealer acted during the day, twister at night). I know it was already extremely likely he was town, but just thought that might be worth mentioning. | ||
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So if the seer is alive, 2 vanilla towns remain. If not, 3 remain. Your not dark comes from one of the remaining vanillas or an angel. | ||
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We have the sage and demon hunter still and the demons lost their courier. So long as the demon hunter targets blazinghand, demons cannot have a majority tomorrow. They also wouldn't have one if I cleanse someone, or they try to corrupt an angel, or if the angels kill one of them or if the angels kill a corrupted town. We would then have an additional night to try to cleanse/kill them during which they cannot corrupt another person. Even if they obtain a majority of votes tomorrow, they have to deal with me, the demon hunter, and the angels. If they out themselves and their corrupted townies to get me lynched, the demon hunter (assuming the angels don't kill him) and remaining angel(s) have a field day. Basically, we have a lot of outs for dealing with the demons. We only have lynching to deal with angels. | ||
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Who, if anyone, is an acceptable lynch to you besides myself. Re: Bluelightz I've read his filter through a couple times and it still confuses the hell out of me T_T, might be a decent last-resort option for today's lynch, but I'm going to keep reading to see if I can find people with more alignment-enlightening filters to go after today. Dirkzor defended Bluelightz early on for what it's worth: I dislike a lynch on Bluelightz. He have been active and trying to contribute. How his contributions have helped town can be discussed but I take that as bad play rather then him being scum. He is just a guy who saids what he wants in one sentence. =) | ||
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Bluelightz Dirkzor Tyrran Although I am not sure if Dirkzor's suspicion of Tyrran is genuine or distancing, this quote from Tyrran is quite odd: Dirkzor is not set in stone. Maybe we should not lynch him despite him being scummy, because he migth flip town. I would also like to propose that if we get someone to 3 or 4 votes and they are a demon, they are free to claim to avoid the lynch. Since I think it is nigh impossible that Blazinghand could claim corrupted town as an angel, a vote-switch code with him to signify whether someone is falsely claiming demon could be established. This would allow demons to remain hidden unless we were going to lynch one anyway, and should prevent angels from false claiming demon to escape a lynch. Thoughts on this? Anyone else have what they think might be an angel team? If the seer is still alive, how many not-angel reads on still living people would justify a seer claim today? | ||
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On January 17 2012 14:57 Blazinghand wrote: This much should be obvious. We need to lynch an angel, even if there are only two. If we do not lynch an angel today, I don't see how town can win. Why don't you see Layabout flipping Angel? Maybe because he wants the sage dead really badly (and remember, the angels are certain that I am actually the sage given the lack of counter-claim), and because he was twisted by the demons last night? | ||
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Blazinghand - 99% town, 1% demon. Claimed corrupted town. He is either town (very likely), or an exceptionally ballsy demon. Bluelightz - Wat. Just posted his list of reads, includes more town reads than the number of remaining townies, unless Syllo was somehow a demon and RoL was an angel. I want to believe he is town, but he makes it so hard to. Reading his filter makes my brain numb. I would not be particularly surprised with him flipping any alignment. Dirkzor - Seems scummy to me, I could see him flipping angel or demon. Grackaroni - Leaning town. 100% not a demon. Some chance of being an angel, but I have now read his past games and the main difference I see is only a bit of a drop in activity. Also, if you were scum, Palmar was not on your team, and he was acting fairly scummy and being attacked by several vets, would you defend him day 1? I know I wouldn't. However, he still remains a potential angel, although I do not think it is the most likely. Jackal58 - Might be an angel...? I can't shake the feeling that he might be an angel, but I don't have any particularly good explanation for it. layabout - Probably demon. He was twisted, but is not the corrupted townie. Also wants me dead like none other. Possibility of him being town if the demons managed to guess who I was investigating. Refallen - Probably town. Besides being more aggressive, which is in itself generally a town trait, and his play has been fairly consistent with my last game with him where he was town. Tyrran - Still isn't playing anything like he did when he was town in steamship. A number of his statements don't seem like a bullshitting scum player...but his play is still very different. I could see him flipping any alignment. Zephirdd - Hopefully town. While his actions have been odd, they don't match up with his scum play from steamship. His reactions to being accused by syllo of being scum-buddies with me seemed extremely similar to my reaction to being tied to Risk. So, I am willing to take our chances on lynching Bluelightz, Dirkzor, Jackal, Tyrran, or Grackaroni, with a preference of not Grackaroni. | ||
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On January 18 2012 03:12 layabout wrote: there are very unlikely scenarios in which all of the demons are dead. for instance, wiggles and syllogism could have been a demons killed by angels and RoL an angel whose kill was concealed. 0demons 2 angels ct gets own vote whilst it seems sensible to dismiss this possibility we should dismiss it actively rather than pretending it is not possible. We should consider whether or not different possibilities should have an impact on our decision-making. I think that, that example should not affect out decision-making but i also think that treating things like that as impossible and then treating much more likely possibilities that would have a real impact on what we should do, is something that we cannot afford to do. No, there is a 0% chance of all demons being dead. I already explained that wiggles was 100% town-aligned. On January 17 2012 09:12 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Oh yeah, and Wiggles is guaranteed to have been town-aligned. Angels wouldn't kill one of their own, and the twister and the concealer were alive during the day yesterday (concealer acted during the day, twister at night). I know it was already extremely likely he was town, but just thought that might be worth mentioning. | ||
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On January 18 2012 03:56 layabout wrote: given how passive and disinterested people have been playing and the lack of votes and lynch candidates and cases, wouldn't it be fair to say that most of the people in the thread are uncertain of their scumreads, and by extension must find everyone else either town or null? Or about half the people alive are some type of scum and therefore have more trouble finding enough scum. | ||
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I am the sage. If you are town, don't throw this game dammit. | ||
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On January 18 2012 03:53 layabout wrote: so thats: Town Any a bit scummy leaning town maybe angel probably demon probably town Any hopefully town 1 scum read 2"maybe" scum 2 i havent a clue Bluelightz had: 1 maybe scum 2 maybe scum, maybe town. way to go stick your neck out and criticise BL from a position that you could legitimately do so from. Mine is a possible setup given the remaining players. BL's is not unless Syllo was a demon, RoL was an angel, and both of his maybe town, maybe scums are scum. I am criticizing him for suggesting a virtually impossible scenario with an extra fuckload of town in it. And how do you go from a probably demon and a seems scummy -> saying I have 1 scum read? I admit there is the possibility of you being town due to my illuminate failing, but I think it is much more likely you are a demon. | ||
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On January 18 2012 04:00 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Zephirrd T_T On January 18 2012 04:19 Zephirdd wrote: Nevermind the double 'r'(which I HATE) Sorry Zephirdd :-x | ||
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On January 18 2012 04:23 layabout wrote: he isn't suggesting a scenario he is posting his read on players based on what he has read. "seems scummmy" is not a scum read, it's very non-committal "he is scummy" on the other hand would pretty much a scum read "he is scum" is a scumread "Probably" indicates that you think him being scum is the most likely alignment "seems" or "scummy" is not "seems and scummy" is not a scumread. So I say he seems scummy and I could see him being angel or demon, and I say I am fine lynching him, and you interpret it with your comment as "any scum", but it isn't a scum read? I see. Re Bluelightz: You have a list of conclusions. Some of your conclusions must be false. Do you 1) Rethink some of the conclusions 2) Accept them all and share them ...? | ||
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That definition of seems is only valid if followed by an infinitive verb. If you're going to use definitions to try to twist my words, at least do it properly. | ||
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Bluelightz -> will not be back in time for the lynch if his past posting history is correct Jackal -> normally would be back with like an hour to spare, but today is a Tuesday. We might lose him to bowling. Refallen -> maybe 50/50 on being back in time? Probably not back with more than an hour to spare though Tyrran -> decent chance of being back in time, although far from guaranteed. Grackaroni -> should be back in time Layabout -> here now Dirkzor -> here now Zephirdd -> here now HarbingerOfDoom -> here now Blazinghand -> here now, can't vote I don't like our odds based on available votes alone T_T | ||
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I have a bad feeling about this :-/ | ||
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On January 18 2012 06:07 Blazinghand wrote: if you don'[t think he's an aangel, don't vote for him. if you do, vote for him. don't pussyfoot around the issue. A no-lynch gives us a 0% chance of lynching scum. Angels we can ONLY kill via lynching. I like >0% more than 0%. | ||
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On January 18 2012 06:10 layabout wrote: if you insist on pussyfooting, could you please use your angel wings to fly to the gallows? I don't have angel wings. | ||
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On January 18 2012 06:14 Blazinghand wrote: Instead plz convince ppl of your best read . That way we can win? *shrug* Why I think Refallen is a shitty lynch: People willing to vote for him: Dirkzor, Bluelightz listed him as a scummy target, Zephirdd, Layabout, Tyrran pushed him as potential scum. No fucking way this list is clean. Was about the only person to not just want to turbo-lynch me in my absence. As I stated, he is playing very similar to his townplay from Election mafia. He made assumptions about night actions in that game as well(and was basically 100% correct on them too). The only difference is he is being more aggressive, which he publicly stated he was going to do before roles were even released. Aggression is generally a townie trait. As far as I can tell, he is one of only 2 people who could potentially be the demon hunter. If we lynch the demon hunter I think it is GG for town. Why I would like to lynch Dirkzor: Starts off with this post: + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2012 17:46 Dirkzor wrote: Game on! This setup scares the living shit out of me. So many nuances to keep track of. Anyway... I agree that Angels appear to be strongest in the beginning with 1/2 KP. But what haven't been mentioned is that Angels can kill the demon for us aswell. If we lynch Angel of Death and Angelic Acolyte we will have to lynch/Demon hunter the Demons. Since I don't know the Demon hunter or how good that person is, he could just aswell kill 3 town people the first 3 nights which of course would not be very favourable for us. It basicly means we would need to do more correct lynches while having a good demon hunter that don't fuck us over with continously town kills. Demons also have the Twist ability which basicly makes one (1) of their members immune to night actions, rendering the demon hunter to be less useful. What i wanted to point out that even if we get 3 correct Angel lynches (unlikely) the first 3 nights. The demons are equally capable to fuck us over. That is why I think that killing any angel or demon is good. Not one over the other. If we knew which angel or demon, it would be a different matter. Mostly innocent, but the general opinion seemed to be that angels were our primary concern, not demons. Potentially an angel wanting to get our attention elsewhere a bit more. He repeatedly tries to discredit Syllogism. + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2012 21:41 Dirkzor wrote: What the F*** happened? Late switch? Why? Syllo you came out looking REALLY bad after this. Your reason for pushing Erandorr so late is bullshit. We had people on erandorr/risk. I believe something like 4/7. Then you post this: Why switch so late if you are _very_ convinced about risk? Is that not good enough? I understand that you can find some people more scummy then others, but why wait until 1½ hour before deadline to try an switch? Your reasoning here looks okay, but if you had already made up your mind about not pushing him because it was all meta-based why change so late? You even say that the risk case is/was better - this was after his defence. Why would you make chaos on purpose to switch from a guy that you find scummy to a guy you find more scummy? I don't get it. You only post that can be called a reason to switch that late. But at the same time you said risk wasnt saying anything usefull - so i assume you did not like his defence or his posting. Other then that you just pushed people to change: + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2012 08:35 syllogism wrote: risk.nuke please vote erandorr so we can switch if we want, you have to pm the bot, read the OP for instructions On January 08 2012 08:53 syllogism wrote: Palmar why won't you switch? Will you switch if we can get enough? On January 08 2012 09:05 syllogism wrote: First of all RoL you aren't voting for anyone right now, read the instructions for voting. Pm the bot: to: zbot subject: purgatory body: ##Vote Erandorr And I'll end with this: Bad logic to setup a potential mislynch: On January 09 2012 04:45 Dirkzor wrote: See, all i have is your word for it. But i guess we can lynch him and if he flips town we lynch you... More bad logic: On January 09 2012 20:37 Dirkzor wrote: Actually: ##Vote Cwave Either he is scum with palmar or he is a townie with a bad read (on me). Doesn't like RoL case: On January 13 2012 04:17 Dirkzor wrote: Blazinghand, I think your case is bad. We can agree that RoL have been useless but so have others. The only real argument you have is that he proposed his plan deliberatly to hurt town which I find unlikely. His reasons for not pushing the plan now is actually quite pro-town in my book since it would just hinder other discussion. And he may have different ways of pushing his case then posting the same thing over and over *cough* BH *cough*. Either way, I have written it before and I'll do so again. I think RoL is a bad lynch. I would like to see him scumhunt soon though. But just add WIFOM: On January 14 2012 00:52 Dirkzor wrote: Likes the RoL lynch.Jackal.. Have you forgotten me? I was so used to your devoted attention! Assuming Wiggles was town, and i assume that, it puts more pressure on RoL. That was the last person that Wiggles talked about (and attacking me about). Combine that with a wall-of-text case that is actually not very big in terms of content I see RoL as more scummy then before he started scumhunting. His case is just not good, its just long so it appears to be good/solid. Long is not always better. Wrong. After RoL claimed VT he could later have claimed channeler without it looking suspicious. As he had already claimed VT he could wait for everyone else to claim. The channeler would be missing and he could then claim channeler and most would believe him because no one else claimed channeler. If someone else claimed channeler before him he could counter-claim and town would lynch RoL (and get channeler), but after that we would lycnh the person who claimed channeler as he was lying. Conveniently ignores that the demons still had the conceal option, and that angels would have had time left after the blue claims to pick a target for the AoD kill in order to support his case. Aka, more bad logic.Posts on some of the others incoming. (Although I seriously feel like I am beating my head against a brick wall by trying here) | ||
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First about 50% of his filter is dedicated to calling Palmar scum. Pretty much clears him of being a demon, but says nothing of him not being an angel. On January 09 2012 11:36 Jackal58 wrote: An interesting assertion to make. It makes more sense for Palmar to protect a teammate than to try to block a blue. I think Palmar sent Syllo to purgatory. Is anybody corrupted? He makes fabulous cases: On January 09 2012 22:25 Jackal58 wrote: This is the guy that needs to go today. He's scum. ##Vote: Dirkzor. He hammers risk: On January 11 2012 23:45 Jackal58 wrote: You are best lynch. But I'm not going to hold my breath. Let's see if there is a reason for voting for somebody nobody else is interested in voting today. ##Vote: risk.nuke. If you flip town risk I am sorry. And now I await everybody telling me how scummy I am for hammering you. With only these prior mentions regarding him: + Show Spoiler + On January 06 2012 11:43 Jackal58 wrote: Are you scum too? There should be zero confusion about which of those 2 you would want to lynch if you believe them both to be scum. No offense risk.nuke but you're not scary. Scum Palmar is scary. On January 07 2012 23:26 Jackal58 wrote: And of those who is going to become harder to hang after we start dying? On January 08 2012 09:35 Jackal58 wrote: Since Palmar isn't happening I switched to Erandorr. Between he and risk I'd rather have risk around another day. Erandorr's alignment will be impossible to determine by his activity. I think RoL did vote but he spelled it wrong. Dunno if that matters or not. More great cases: + Show Spoiler + On January 14 2012 00:09 Jackal58 wrote: This is twice. You don't get a 3rd. ##Vote: Bluelightz On January 14 2012 01:21 Jackal58 wrote: I still think Dirkzor is scum. But nobody else wants to agree with me. I thought you may be scum as well until you got sent to Purgatory again and the AoD appeared. You may still be a demon but I'm not leaning that way atm. RoL has made an appearance other than his stupid plan. But it's basically appearing to be a great big OMGUS. I'd like to see what else he has to say about others today. Tyrran I think is just a derpy townie. I haven't played with him before so I'm not sure what to expect from him. Between the 2 I'd lynch RoL first but I think Dirkzor, Bluelights, or HoD are all better options. And I did push and justify my vote on Dirkzor. It wasn't 10,000 words so you ignored it. I think the only reason Bluelights came back was because I put my vote on him. He's scum lynch him. Overall his filter is not particularly enlightening other than "very likely not a demon". By this stage in the game I would expect a veteran to have done a much better exonerating himself of suspicion if he is town. | ||
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On January 18 2012 06:58 Zephirdd wrote: also Is not WIFOM. For something to be WIFOM, you need to create a full circle. Here he makes the assumption that Wiggles is town, and rightfully so(killed by angels, was the first to attack the Demon Palmar). It also shows him changing his mind not immediately on RoL's case, and with a reason(connects MrWiggles' killed-by-angels with his case on RoL). Nah, your case sucks. They killed wiggles, he was suspicious of RoL, therefore RoL is more likely to be scum is the logic he used. This is most certainly WIFOM. From the mafiascum wiki: Many times analyzing night kills is considered WIFOM, as only the killers can say with certainty why someone died. This is especially true when the kill choices were unexpected. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=57176 And his filter from this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=57176 Do these seriously look similar to anyone here? | ||
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On January 18 2012 07:05 Zephirdd wrote: oh and I forgot No shit sherlock, we need demons to lynch angels this game. You know what is common on this list? Nobody here looks Angel to me. And how can you make an assertion about who is the DH, when the DH shot only obvious targets(maybe a bit less on Palmar, but was an excellent shot nevertheless) As far as we know, Jackal is the DH. Not everyone agreed they were obvious targets. I've been trying to avoid overlapping with the demon-hunter's shots, I haven't done it by not looking for the demon hunter. The odds of Jackal being the demon hunter and not having stabbed dirkzor over cwave or spaackle I would rate at near 0%. | ||
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On January 18 2012 07:08 Zephirdd wrote: So you mean that the Angels could've killed Mr wiggles so that it would mean we lynch RoL with that? So, by that logic, RoL was possibly town? Do you realize that if RoL was town, you are scum? He made the simplest possible assumption. The problem would be if he made a more complicated assumption("...but the Angels may have killed him with that in mind") RoL and I both being town is not impossible. It would just mean that Wiggles was neither the channeler nor the sage. He still could have been the seer or vanilla. | ||
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On January 18 2012 07:14 Tyrran wrote: How are you still making meta game cases so far into the game ? But that is not the matter now. I'm thinking of voting for refallen. I've explained before that his case against dirzkor no longer hold, and still he wanted him lynched. PLus he was pushing for demon lynch, which is the most angel tell IMHO. I also dont think the demon hunter would act this way. The DH should have known that we need to lynch angels and not demons as of now. His filter has nothing to dissuade me from voting for him. Your argument for not voting him is only based on the list of people pushing for him. That's not enough for me. Right now, I think he is a better lynch over dirzkor. ##vote Refallen Holy fuck, unvoting to avoid corrupted town insta-hammer. Goddammit, be careful man. | ||
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On January 18 2012 07:16 Zephirdd wrote: WHAT?! Someone had to be the Channeler, and it Had to be RoL or MrWiggles. If it was syllogism(the last ??? flip), you'd have been jailed last night. Honestly, the more you post the more I think we are about to lynch an Angel buddy of yours. ...yes, RoL could have been channeler, and that doesn't make me not town. That just means wiggles was neither channeler nor sage. Read dammit. | ||
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On January 18 2012 07:14 Tyrran wrote: How are you still making meta game cases so far into the game ? But that is not the matter now. I'm thinking of voting for refallen. I've explained before that his case against dirzkor no longer hold, and still he wanted him lynched. PLus he was pushing for demon lynch, which is the most angel tell IMHO. I also dont think the demon hunter would act this way. The DH should have known that we need to lynch angels and not demons as of now. His filter has nothing to dissuade me from voting for him. Your argument for not voting him is only based on the list of people pushing for him. That's not enough for me. Right now, I think he is a better lynch over dirzkor. ##vote Refallen Meta is part of it, but you have also been useless as all hell this game. Your original contributions sum to about 0. I was the only real case you made and I already showed it was all essentially copy-pasted points that others had made before you. | ||
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I already explained why I am protecting him. Demons hammering him could also mean they have the same read I have on him - that he may be the demon hunter. @Blazinghand What is your read on Refallen? Also, do you think it is worth waiting to see if either Refallen or Jackal return to the thread? | ||
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On January 18 2012 07:37 Zephirdd wrote: Explain again(as you haven't) why is he one of the only two that can possibly be the DH. He had scum reads on Palmar, cwave, and spaackle and publicly stated those reads in the thread. Of those living, and the demon hunter is still living, only refallen and one other person has publicly stated reads aligning with those kills. On January 07 2012 10:11 Refallen wrote: My bad. I've only played 2 games so far which involved a voting thread so it didn't hit me to announce my votes before voting. Mmm, you're probably right, but I think the fact that there are two scum teams would have made it harder for that to happen. And yes, right now I don't mind lynching Palmar, but I do rather lynch risknuke. With that said ##UNVOTE PALMAR ##VOTE RISK.NUKE On January 09 2012 21:16 Refallen wrote: Well I decided to take a look at Cwave since Dirk is voting for him. Cwave Ok, weird role to choose the most important power of. Unless you're a demon. Buddying with Palmar, possible scumbuddies? The exchange about risk.nuke and his plan sounds especially contrived. Not wanting to vote risk.nuke? I'm going to say that if we lynch risk.nuke and he flips demon, Cwave is most probably the last one. On January 14 2012 11:03 Refallen wrote: Spaackle's definitely another target one should look at, maybe for the DT. A quick glance through his filter reveals the following things - thought risk.nuke was scummy from day 1 - thought Palmar looked townie - thought Cwave looked scummy Ok, so three wrong reads off the bat. - Tried to buddy up with BH on day 2, voted RoL. Posts this and unvotes RoL, and BH rightly calls him out for it. Did not vote on day 2, spends the time instead trying to make a case for tyrran, who was never getting lynched that day. And then a whole lot of nothing. Well, I certainly don't mind him being the target of a vig kill at night, to say the least. | ||
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Jackal, if you show up I would like to hear your thoughts as well. | ||
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On January 18 2012 08:29 Refallen wrote: I'm the fucking demon hunter goddamnit I shot palmar night one and was alternating between Cwave and Tyrran for night 2. Again decided not to shoot Tyrran night 3 and ended up shooting another vt. So there. I really did not want to claim. Can you move your vote off me now? Oh hey, look at that -_- | ||
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Feel free to move Blazinghand's vote around to any other lynches you might find acceptable. Obviously you can move it back to Jackal after indicating the other options. Refallen and myself being off-limits of course. | ||
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On January 18 2012 08:46 Blazinghand wrote: Just make sure you hit a demon vote. Entering day 5 with 4 demon votes out of 7 players would be atrociously bad. I'm fairly certain demon team is layabout/bluelightz. Angels may aim for a demon vote as well...and I have non-zero odds of cleansing the person the night they corrupt them, and they have non-zero odds of missing the corruption by hitting an angel instead. So hopefully between his shot, the angels, and my illuminate we can keep them down. (corruption resolves before cleansing of corruption) | ||
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On January 18 2012 08:53 Blazinghand wrote: The two people who haven'ted voted yet are HarbingerofDoom and Refallen. We need two votes to hammer. People who aren't on Jackal currently, but have voted: Jackal, Dirk, layabout, Tyrran Granted, we don't want to unnecessarily hammer early, but that deadline is looking, gentlemen. Starting 1 hour before the deadline I will be extremely pleased at any hammering just because a no-lynch today is so deadly. Don't worry, I will hammer jackal over no-lynching, but I would like to know if we have any other lynch options. | ||
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On January 18 2012 09:29 Zephirdd wrote: deadline is dangerously close... Yo HoD, you can vote already y'know. It's not like there is a risk of hammer right now. And nobody suggested a better target. Was hoping the demons might still offer another lynch...and thereby tell us another non-demon. But I am voting now. | ||
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On January 18 2012 10:33 Blazinghand wrote: Harbinger, by the way, you should consider flipping a coin to decide between illuminating me and illuminating whoever you think the demons should corrupt, so they don't know whether they should twist me or they guy they're corrupting. Also, maybe don't announce who is on the top of your "list of people demons may corrupt tonight". That way they have lots of WIFOM to wade through. I was already planning to either flip a coin, or to use something online to RNG 2 or 3 options :-P | ||
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Just make you you claim your shot before the day post. That way if angels decide to kill you and you happen to hit an angel instead of a demon, we'll know that person is an angel. (No purgatory means surviving demon hunter shot = angel) @Angels Remember, if you hit refallen or me, and refallen ends up hitting a townie, you guys are likely boned...so let's play nice shall we? | ||
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On January 18 2012 14:35 Blazinghand wrote: oh definitely. primary DH goal is to deny a demon vote-- an added bonus would be killing an actual demon. Damn twist ability. I want to save you :-( | ||
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On January 18 2012 20:03 Refallen wrote: I can still stalemate with the demons :oFinally back from school. Aw, jackal was the observer, guess I can't go for my true love anymore =( | ||
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Also, Dirkzor, not a demon. | ||
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But if they don't die, you have found an angel, and we have a pool of known townies (you, me, blazinghand) so removing the non-confirmed town doesn't seem like that big of a downside. | ||
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It is now Night 5. The night will end 2012-01-21 10:00:42. (That's approximately 1 day, 22:18:54 from now.) Any chance we can cut 24 hours off of the night? I don't think we need this much time. | ||
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Is there any reason for me not to illuminate you tonight? @Everyone who hasn't yet Please state whether or not you were corrupted last night. | ||
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Sound good? | ||
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Don't forget to PM Zona if you would like to end the night early rather than waiting the extra 24 hours. | ||
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On January 19 2012 23:23 Zephirdd wrote: HOWEVER, HoD. I want you to illuminate Bluelightz tonight. Reason is simple: my mind if wifoming hard over you, and if you illuminate him and he confirms that he was illuminated, we confirmed you both. Yes I know I should be trusting you by now, but my mind is a whirlpool over you atm. And it's not like you have any other use for your move either; Refallen is confirmed DH anyway. Simple workaround over you two. I'm sticking to my plan. But consider this to help ease your mind, the angel of death can only detect a twisting if their kill fails. The observer can obviously detect a twisting if observing fails, and the acolyte can only detect it if they knew their kill should work but it failed. At the end of night 3, I called that layabout was twisted within 2 minutes of the day post, and the angel of death kill went through. We already know 100% that the observer is dead. So for me to be an angel, I would either need to be the acolyte and somehow been sure he was a demon at that time, or another angel would have to read their PM from the night, inform me in some way, and then I would have to post the twisted claim, all within 2 minutes. Or I would have had to guess and hope for the best, along with correctly guessing that dirkzor and grackaroni were not demons. Or I'm just the goddamn sage. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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On January 08 2012 14:26 Zephirdd wrote: Do we think he'd have the presence of mind to soft-bus a teammate while drunk?Why care about lynch during night Palmar seems fairly scummy to me since his last post(or few posts fdunno) so he shoul be shot or lynched. also Jackal seesm bad, but i always think that be is sum no matter what game and alignment so meh. dunno im too bdrubnk to think about that. Not terribly relevant, but just thought I would highlight this: On January 06 2012 11:14 Refallen wrote: Refallen too good~Furthermore, if Palmar flips red I think we should definitely go after Tyrran next. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
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HarbingerOfDoom
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On January 20 2012 07:46 Refallen wrote: Didn't trust my read and still went with hitting cwave and spaackle though =( It's ok. With so few people listening to my case combined with the craziness Tyrran was spewing I backed off my read on him too :-( You're stabbing Dirkzor, yes? And everyone is ending night early I hope? I'm impatient. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 20 2012 10:18 Blazinghand wrote: oh, not bad. I'm vaguely considering the possibility that the acolyte is alive and has been holding fire. would that be possible? Possible, yes, but I think it is unlikely. If they were I don't know why they wouldn't have targetted you last night with the acolyte, and then anyone else with the angel of death...then somebody should have woken up dead besides layabout. On the off chance the acolyte is still alive, we'll need dirkzor to be an angel, and then to lynch correctly twice in a row. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
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HarbingerOfDoom
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(And nights shouldn't be 47.5 hours T_T) | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
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HarbingerOfDoom
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Lynching Grack today? Lynching Grack today. ##Vote: Grackaroni | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
Layabout was arguing with me before he died that Bluelightz was town, Bluelightz was also not likely to be night killed by the angel of death, nor was he the main focus of Refallen. Therefore, I find it likely that the demons would have picked him to corrupt. Nobody else counter-claimed the corruption, and he correctly answered whether he was cleansed or not. If Grackaroni isn't it, I have no issues lynching Zephirdd tomorrow. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
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HarbingerOfDoom
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@Zephirdd Had we not lynched Jackal that day, it wouldn't have really mattered as long as we got some form of scum lynched. He wasn't the acolyte or the angel of death. We thought we needed to hit an angel since we weren't sure if the acolyte was still alive as well, but since it was only 1 kp for the angels, any scum would have sufficed. And I was definitely willing to push a jackal case before too much longer. (And I even wrote up and posted a basic case for him that day) | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
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HarbingerOfDoom
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LOL k so the demon hunter killed Palmar as well... Maybe people will believe HoD is AoD then because there's no kill. Almost worked. (You bastards) | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 21 2012 13:06 Zephirdd wrote: LOL you crazy?! That ONE conceal they did almost raped my mind. I'm the goddamn sage. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 22 2012 01:23 wherebugsgo wrote: I really don't understand what the point of a breadcrumb (in the way HoD did it) as town is. You breadcrumb your results as town, not your role, because anyone can breadcrumb any role they want. The whole point of breadcrumbing is so that, if you're shot by mafia, town can reread your posts and find your targets and the results. Of course with the current state of the TL meta townies don't really have to worry much about scum fakeclaims, because scum are fucking lazy, but honestly if scum play improves a tiny bit, townies will get shafted sooooo hard by that crumbing business. I agree the breadcrumb was mostly pointless (the lack of counter-claim was the much stronger argument), but I know some people just like to believed breadcrumbed roles more than non-breadcrumbed, so I figured why not? Also, just in case someone was bold enough to counter-claim me, I figured it might help me win over an extra person or two if that scenario arose and I had a breadcrumb and they didn't. My result was breadcrumbed as well. | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
Who did you attempt to investigate each night? (Zona usually releases all the actions, but I am impatient!) | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 22 2012 02:58 syllogism wrote: N1: I sent in Jackal first but then switched to Tyrran N2: Tyrran N3: Grackaroni but switched to Zephirdd when he made that post in which he called me seer. Basically because I knew I was going to die unless HoD really was the angel of death and zephirdd was the third angel So had you stayed on Jackal and neither of us were sent to purgatory, the blue roles could have hit 3 scum night one :-P But that means we both tried to investigate Tyrran night one, but both ended up in purgatory. -_- | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ♥♥♥♥♥ | ||
HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 22 2012 04:46 risk.nuke wrote: BH, you havent understood the situation. It's not as simple as whipping up a case against someone else. Lol at you saying, you could had simply made a solid case on someone else and avoid beeing lynched when nobody had made a solid case. They don't come with the cheerios. Later I didn't follow the game closely but I doubt there was any solid scumhunting cases at all for the entire game. Town just got lucky with powerroles. Were you expecting me to whipp one up at day 1? As for defending myself I defended myself from what I could, and I was beeing ignored. + Show Spoiler + *We had concluded that I wasn't or very unlikely a demon because of palmars actions. Why would I had defended palmar the demon from an angel perspective? He is a great scumhunter and on my opposing team. That in itself made me less likely to flip scum then anybody else. *I could also had been a good target for the seer, Since the detectives of this setup only had two functions. I was in a rare position where a check on me was usefull and could actually confirm me as almost guaranteed town. *No information would come from my lynch. Other then that. What was there to defend myself against? There was not a case against me. I can't defend myself from air or people just saying I think he is scummy. Nobody can. Logical arguments can be trashed and I'm generally good at trashing bad cases against me. But I can't if you don't accuse me of something. But ignore all that. What would you had done and said if you were in my situation. Answer that if you want me to discuss this seriously with you. Lucky with power roles? Syllo got 0 investigations off. Wiggles saved us from 0 night kills, role-blocked our seer twice, and then died. I got implicated by the night actions, tried to investigate 3 scum in a row, but had 2 of the 3 blocked (although one of the two blocks hinted strongly at being a demon), and the other was not the alignment I could detect and incorrectly lowered my suspicion of somebody who was scum. Refallen made the correct shot night one, then missed twice before hitting layabout, who was being fairly obvious scum at that point. What is lucky about that clusterfuck? | ||
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