Purgatory Mafia

On December 29 2011 21:01 Zona wrote:
How does everyone feel about deferring the start of the game until Jan 2nd?

Dec 31st and Jan 1st will be virtually no-activity days anyways, and it's already the 29th now.

On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:

I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control.



No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share.

The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy.



step 1) find scum
step 2) lynch them

step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads.

On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote:
Finally started! Hype!

My first thoughts on the setup;

Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact.

On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote:


Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier

On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote:


Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability



What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff?

Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order"



The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing

On January 04 2012 17:32 Blazinghand wrote:


Ok, but imagine an alternate situation-- you don't have a counter to a strategy, but it's likely the angels/demons have thought of it. wouldn't this be a good time to share so that you can learn stuff? Like, I don't like the idea of a bunch of town players who aren't working together and pooling their ideas.

That sounds bad.

That sounds like a pro-scum town environment.

On January 04 2012 17:46 Dirkzor wrote:
Game on!

This setup scares the living shit out of me. So many nuances to keep track of. Anyway...

I agree that Angels appear to be strongest in the beginning with 1/2 KP. But what haven't been mentioned is that Angels can kill the demon for us aswell. If we lynch Angel of Death and Angelic Acolyte we will have to lynch/Demon hunter the Demons. Since I don't know the Demon hunter or how good that person is, he could just aswell kill 3 town people the first 3 nights which of course would not be very favourable for us. It basicly means we would need to do more correct lynches while having a good demon hunter that don't fuck us over with continously town kills.
Demons also have the Twist ability which basicly makes one (1) of their members immune to night actions, rendering the demon hunter to be less useful.

What i wanted to point out that even if we get 3 correct Angel lynches (unlikely) the first 3 nights. The demons are equally capable to fuck us over. That is why I think that killing any angel or demon is good. Not one over the other. If we knew which angel or demon, it would be a different matter.

Each night, you may target a player other than yourself to attack.

Any attempts to illuminate, slay, stalk, or observe that player will fail.

On January 04 2012 17:59 Refallen wrote:
Not to mention that while angels CAN kill demons, it hardly seems optimal for them. With 11 town and only 3 of each faction, for angels to kill off demons would just mean that town will have an easier time. I think that we can consider the scenario of angel and demon killing each other therfore, highly improbable.

On January 04 2012 17:57 Blazinghand wrote:
I'm not FoSing you or anything, HofD, I'm just saying that your policy ideas and posting ideas are bad, and I want everyone to know it so they don't follow your advice. I will "harp" on this as much as possible to promote good posts.

On January 04 2012 18:01 Blazinghand wrote:


^--- example of a good post that discusses an angel strategy. Would you deny Refallen the right to make this post, HofD? No, you definitely would not. But you can see how discussions of scum strats are important to the town now, right? It should be fairly clear.

On January 04 2012 18:09 Blazinghand wrote:
IN FACT YOU EVEN RESPOND TO THAT POST RIGHT HERE:



Why aren't you telling Refallen off? because you forgot for a moment about your poorly-thought-out rule and acted like a reasonable person. Try to do that more and think about your "well lets never discuss what scum actions might look like in this complicated setup" rule less.

On January 04 2012 18:18 Dirkzor wrote:


Oh right. My bad. Thx for clearing that up.

Oh and by the way. Your whole discussion about sharing angel/demon strat or not is stupid. What Refallen wrote wasn't a strat it was obvious and its okay to post that. I think what HOD means is an elaborate strat that can't be countered by town - ei. a strat that will be advanced and give angels/demons a chance to win because town has no counter.

A strat like:
X angel kill A town with powers, then claims that he was in purgatory so Y Angel can say blah blah

right?

On January 05 2012 03:57 Blazinghand wrote:


You're in for quite the ride.

On January 05 2012 04:31 layabout wrote:
What i think we should do today:
I think that we should agree within the next few hours to commit to lynching a lurker day 1.

The benefits of lynching a lurker day1:

1)Town blues can be active to prevent a day1 catastrophe
2)Town green can be active, which along with the blues would prevent a day1 town lynch.
3)In order to avoid being lynched angels and demons will also have to be active
4)If people take this seriously then there should be no lurkers, town does not need to worry about lurkers and there will not be a lurker townie mislynch day 1.
5)In the absence of lurkers then the day 1 lynch can be on somebody scummy + Show Spoiler +
6)If we manage to force activity then we can establish a strong town atmosphere and force people to take stances, give opinions and provide useful information that can be analysed.
We would essential transform lurking from a viable scum tactic to actively playing against your teams win condition.

Cons (that i have thought of):

1)if somebody does lurk there are likely to be townie
2)sometimes things IRL come up and a player may be force to lurk for a period of time that would not warrant a modkill but would get them labelled a lurker.
4)(some town) people can get bored with day 1 and struggle to make relevant posts and may lurk
5)By making non-town active they could confuse influence manipulate and/or derail the thread to town detriment + Show Spoiler +

by providing a way for blues demons and angels to escape the lynch, in the event that vanilla town make up the bulk of the lurking players, we could inadvertently create a list of actives that is dense in demons angels and blues, because the demons and angels know their own teams they can potentially utilise this list better.

I aim to create an effect similar to what happened in student mafia in which BH pressured non-contributors and townies stepped up and began offering information which made them easier to identify and there was a strong pro-town atmosphere.Whilst the situation is different i wish to achieve a pro-town result and i believe that we very easily can.

This is not me advocating a lynch all lurker policy simply (what i believe to be) an effective way to utilise the day1 lynch to create a better town atmosphere or by lynching a player that town can ensure is definitely not a townie.

Please consider this, and try to look at it objectively

On January 05 2012 04:45 Blazinghand wrote:
So HoD, you rather reasonably want to give BL an additional chance to post, and rather reasonably don't want to always be lynching lurkers. What are your thoughts for a d1 lynch then, if it's not gonna be "guy who's posting terribly"? Or are we still acquiring reads or what

On January 05 2012 05:48 layabout wrote:
I feel like this might not be working.., with so many not on board there is next to no chance of success.

Can we agree to look at lurking as highly incriminating and scummy?

In the likely event of rubbish cases on day1 can we agree to go for the lurkers?

additional justification:
1)with 12 town 6 non-town and information denying cabalities information and an organised town are much more valuable than they would be in a normal game (they are crucial in a normal game with even a semi-comppetant scum)
2)in the likely event of a day1 mislynch, it would be preferable to have acheived a pro-town atmosphere rather than a safe-to-lurk atmosphere

On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Regarding set-up:

In this game, it feels like the town roles can be used in very versatile ways that people aren't really touching on. For example, the demon-hunter is a vigi for demons, but they can also serve as a detective for angels. There is nothing that protects from attacks besides going to purgatory, so if the demonhunter's target lives without going to purgatory, then they're an angel.

Same thing with the sage. Many people are focusing on the cleansing aspect of the role, but not on the investigative powers. This ties in with the corrupted players as well. While the demons want to corrupt as many townspeople as they can, this also makes it more dangerous for them, as they essentially introduce demon detectives into the game.

Regarding Lynch all Lurkers:

If you want to pursue this, you need to make the distinction between lurkers and inactives. Someone who hasn't posted all day cycles is not a lurker. They are an inactive. A lurker is someone who comes in, makes a useless post to appease everyone, and then leaves again, continuing this as necessary to keep pressure off themselves.

On January 05 2012 15:19 Blazinghand wrote:


Demonstrate to me that Palmar and Erandorr also DON'T do very little on the first 24 hours of day 1 when they are town, and I'm game like venison

On January 06 2012 04:06 Grackaroni wrote:
HarbingerofDoom is my scum pick.

He was one of the first people into the game and took a lot of time to comment on the setup.
(this is what the majority of his posts are about)
At the start of the game he asks for us to give strategies for demons/angels which to me seemed weird from a town perspective and not beneficial to town.

In Newbie mini Mafia he was very active and spent a lot of time scum hunting.
So far there has been no scumhunting done by him


He seems fairly content with lynching a lurker. (Palmar/Errandorr are the only people he's pushed lynches for)

Together this paints a picture to me, he is one of the earlier players to sign up, he was here right when the game started, he had the time to post quite a few things about the setup which tells us nothing about his allignment. In another game when he is town he is more active and does a lot of scumhunting but in this game he wants a lurker lynch.(granted it did include some meta with it) He has the time to post but chooses not to.
I'll wait for more posts.

On January 06 2012 05:39 risk.nuke wrote:

It depends. If you are having a single one or two people accusing you, you get annoyed. Like I am now now with syllo. Or example in steamship prplhz tried to get me lynched on a bad case. I got annoyed. Then there are situations where you have a majority of people looking suspiciously at you. You've likely messed up and done something to justify their suspicions but you need to defend yourself. If you mess up town mislynch you. There is a situation I would be nervous in.

- You most post in the thread at least once every 24 hours. Your role may also include other activity requirements which you must follow.

On January 06 2012 06:54 Blazinghand wrote:


Who are you addressing? Call them out.

@jackal, erandorr, xsksc and RebirthOfLeGenD
Planning on doing...anything? Posting things would be appreciated.

On January 06 2012 12:34 Refallen wrote:
Hi Harbringer, yes actually, there is. I've been wanting to play more aggressive since I kinda got tired of being forced to passively defend in election mafia. I made several references to this in both election mafia and in this thread I think.

I know of at least one other game where he didn't take day 1 very seriously (XVIII I think it was?). If that is the only one, than obviously his play so far is more damning than if he does this every so often. If any of the vets could fill me in on whether or not he has messed around day 1 in other games as well it would be appreciated.

On January 06 2012 15:08 Mr. Wiggles wrote:

As far as I remember, I have not seen him play a game as town where he has not played aggressively and forcefully, starting day 1. Every game I've played with him, he's either called someone out quickly, been quick to shoot down bad play, or tunneled someone into the ground if he's been town. This is not the Palmar I'm used to playing with as town.

Also keep in mind, that most games only have 48 hour days, and he has already spent more than that time continuing to act the way he has.

On January 07 2012 07:03 Palmar wrote:
whatever. im moving my vote to eran. someone pointed out pushing me like that day 1 is risky. if i get lynched itll at least be a lesson in why listening to meta that has nothing to do with alignment is dumb as fuck.

On January 07 2012 08:06 Blazinghand wrote:


So you are voting Tyrran based on Meta instead of Erandorr who you think is likely to be scum due to being a lurker?

On January 07 2012 09:12 Tyrran wrote:


If you read steamship mafia, you'll notice i wasnt really active before I had some hard fact to analyse ( ie kenpachi lynch). I'm not good at analysing Meta, because its only my second game here. Half the accusation here are made on meta. I'm looking for contradictions, votes, something i can work on. I dont like making case for the sake on making one. I'll make a case after day 1, when i'll have more info to work with.

On January 07 2012 15:01 Bluelightz wrote:


Right now, I am suspicious of Grackaroni due to his Wishy-washyness with his reads.I think that since there's no real candidate for lynching I am fine with lynching a lurker, but if a solid case does pop up i'm fine with switching over

I don't have suspicions on Palmar/you after Palmar's defense though.

On January 08 2012 13:54 Zephirdd wrote:
Alright. Even drunken than before. fuck backspace


So, hjrere is what i thnik. Erandorr case 3was weak, risknuke seemed like a better lynch, but even him I think wasmt good enough. Demon Hunter could try to shoot Palmar tonight IMO. MrWiggles doesnt look too scum eithner. I dont think Tyrran is a good kill, in fact he is playinmg just like his meta.





TYhese are my thoughts. Also, beer is a fucking good drink, you should try it if yopu havent. It's soooooooooo gooooooooood

On January 08 2012 20:31 syllogism wrote:
Harbingerofdoom's refusal to vote for Risk seems quite bad as well. He is still ignoring risk and not really explaining why.

On January 07 2012 07:47 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
On risk.nuke, his playstyle seems to vary a good deal between games, so I am not sold on him being scum yet and would certainly like to hear a bit more from him before deciding whether or not I think he is worth a lynch.

On January 09 2012 04:30 syllogism wrote:
You are still pretending that the case against risk was purely meta and it most certainly was not. You are repeating the same misrepresentations that risk used, making you look worse. Moreover the case against Erandorr was pure meta and you were fine with voting for him based on just that. A lot of things were even said about risk.nuke since you made that post. What do you think about him now?

Anyway, we will certainly want to see risk flip first and you have a chance to step up regardless, but I do believe your stance regarding risk nuke has been suspicious

On January 09 2012 04:45 Dirkzor wrote:
See, all i have is your word for it.

But i guess we can lynch him and if he flips town we lynch you...

On January 09 2012 04:57 layabout wrote:

Well..
i made a slight error here (RoL had said he would vote for erandor here but he never voted)

Erandor had four votes when HoD voted: Grackaroni, Blazinghand, Tyrran and Cwave
Risk.nuke had 6 votes:syllogism, Refallen, Dirkzor, Zephirdd, layabout, Erandorr,
@HoD
your primary reasoning was to that to avoid a no-lynch you would vote for Erandorr because you were "fine with lynching him"
in light of all of the pressure of risk.nuke why didn't you comment on it?
if you wanted to avoid the no-lynch why did you vote Erandorr rather than voting for risk, who had the most votes?

Where is the active and opinionated and aggressive risk.nuke of Election mafia who posted a lot and certainly didn't just repeat what others had said, right or wrong?

@risk.nuke
Last game I played with you you were extremely aggressive early on. This game you haven't attacked anyone yet, or even directly addressed someone. Any particular reason why you were active and aggressive last time, and are thus far being passive this game?

On January 09 2012 05:23 layabout wrote:
Fun fact: risk nuke was agressive day 1 in steamship

assertive vote for a clear reason

attacks Forumite for a reason


throws around his vote


gives some reasoning


makes his second vote because of sinani's vote
(kenpachi and sinani got lynched and both flipped blue, risk was town)
So i actually this compared to this game risk nuke was aggressiv in attacking players even if he was relatively inactive.

So your meta reason is bollocks

throws around his vote

Also, if you were in this game, you would know that calling this his vote being "thrown around" is the farthest thing from the truth.

On January 09 2012 05:55 layabout wrote:

Your reasoning this game fir him being not scummy is that:
In a previous game you felt he wasn't being aggressive at a certain point during day1 and that this might have made him scummy.
He turned out to be town.
In this game at a point near the end of day 1 risk nuke hadn't been aggressive
and conclude that he isn't scummy, or completely dismiss the difference in play style.

There is a difference in his play style and it was apparent when you voted.
In this game he had had an awful lot longer to be aggressive but he wasn't (and still hasn't been).
This means that actually his meta was different
There were numerous other reasons that had been pointed out which you completely disregarded.

By "throw around" i mean used for pressure. In that game he was exercising he voting power and using it to get reactions out of people, in this game he hopped on erandor at the brink to save himself.

On January 07 2012 09:04 risk.nuke wrote:
Erandorr is very likely scum. Simply because a non-posting Erandorr is a red Erandorr.

Jackal58 is another person who would likely bleed red. The first thing he does is attack palmar and keeps at it using tunneling and fearmongering, while I am also slightly leaning red on palmar I don't think Jackal would hit him this hard if Jackal was town-aligned, he's just trying to get rid of palmar any means neccersary. He justifys it by saying he always attack palmar day 1 but I think this is just an excuse. He takes a break from his Palmar tunneling to rightfully rage alittle on people listing no-reads but it doesn't mean anything and he haven't contributed anything himself exept tunneling palmar.

On January 08 2012 08:02 risk.nuke wrote:
The one fucking thing that should make you realise what a bad lynch I am is how fucking easily I'm getting bandwagon-sheeped to the block. Layabout is really the only one who's tried to write some reasoning, even though it's really really bad reasoning that was all it took because with that and ridiculous meta-claims I'm free to sheep, you don't need to state why I'm scummy, hell this is a bandwagon the more the merrier right. What information will you get when I flip town? Squat.

On January 08 2012 08:12 risk.nuke wrote:
I should had taken a bus 10 minutes ago, but I'm waiting here for you, in the bloody of-chance that you might see some reason and change the lynch because if I left now I know I will die and when I flip town people is going to whine and bitch about how I gave up and let myself get lynched so please speak.

On January 08 2012 08:48 risk.nuke wrote:
Blazinghand quit beeing a huge troll. You did some pressuring but that's all you've done, after that you just got convinced of your own selfimportance so please tune it down.

On January 09 2012 10:41 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Ah man, who will I lynch today now?

Also, the AoD either didn't hit, or it's one of HoD or syllo.

Acolyte missed. All people sent to purgatory are now targets of the channeler.

On January 09 2012 10:46 Jackal58 wrote:

Why would he flip?. He's not dead. You didn't flip.

On January 09 2012 11:22 Spaackle wrote:
Well, now that we know that Palmar is scum, we should take a look at a post the he made earlier:



I'll bet we find Palmar's scumbuddies in the list of the people that he declared as townies.

On January 10 2012 03:19 layabout wrote:

Gloating and WIFOM in the same post?
scummy?

On January 09 2012 19:58 syllogism wrote:
I'm pretty sure palmar sent HoD to purgatory because he thought he was likely an angel. We of course can't draw any conclusions from that, but as noted before HoD's play has been somewhat suspicious so far. Anyway, either the angel of death attempted to hit me or the angel is HoD (or both!)

It's also fairly likely that Palmar was a demon hunter hit because demon Demonic Twister's power protects against slay/stalk but not against demon hunter. Palmar had an important role, so it's somewhat likely that they would use it on him. I'm not sure if the twister can use the ability on himself, but right considering Palmar was by far attracting the most attention, that might change things depending on who the twister is. The only reason why it matters who hit Palmar is because the other possibility is that the demon hunter hit an angel who did not die, in which case we could discuss whether him claiming would be worthwhile. Probably not and his likely target would be risk nuke anyway.

Risk.nuke still looks like the best lynch. The case against him still stands and quite a few people were against his lynch without adequately explaining why. They obviously can't all be his team mates, but it's hard to believe there would be that many townies unwilling to lynch him in that situation and be perfectly fine with lynching erandorr. His behaviour hasn't improved at all and that vt claim right before day post doesn't seem like something a townie would do.

On January 10 2012 03:51 layabout wrote:
What Purpose does the Post "Why I think I was put in purgatory" serve?

How does it help town?

I think Palmar and/or his team mistakenly believed that I was the demon hunter due to these posts:

You connect the idea of you being sent to purgatory* with the idea that your posting caused the demons to think that you were the demon hunter. You present the idea of your posts being responsible for the angels banishing you because you have made them think that you were the demonhunter.

From this it would easily be infered that you posted TO make them think you were they demon hunter.

You then say To me this seems like gloating because you associate the demons thinking that you were the demon hunter (which is WIFOM and total speculation) with a demon being lynched

I don't see how this helps town but i do see how you associate your posting at the start of the game and a demon flipping and how this tries to put you in a better light despite the fact that your decisions about how to behave were almost certainly not made with that goal in mind and if they were the actual chance of them acheiving the result of a dead demon is next to none.

That is why i see it as gloating. Speculation about scum motivation and scum goals when they commit actions that will be subject to scrutiny is what part of your post is and is almost the perfect example of WIFOM.
*which could have been because either the channeller though you were a town asset to protect or a demon or angel to roleblock OR the demons felt that you were a blue or an angel OR you were targeted by one of the two because they felt night actions would land on you and they wished to roleblock those targerting you OR they may have simply wanted increase attention on you. There is a plethora of reasons that could be the case and without addition information we cannot rule many out. If the demons send a player to purgatory they know towwn will find out and this will impact their decision making.

On January 10 2012 04:22 layabout wrote:

You haven't said what the "potentially useful information is" yet you say that you have given it and that it was valuable to town.

You don't know what the goal is! You can'teven know for certain who palmar transported (unless you are a demon and he told you or you are the channeller).

I suggest that the whole thing is subject to WIFOM-ing. It is called "Why i think i was put in Purgatory", what exactly can you follow that up with that is wifom!!

Wifom is also: did Palmar tansported HoD? why? Does that mean HoD is scum with him? Did Palmar think he was the other scumteam? Did Palmar wish to increase suspicion?
since your post provides answers to those questions and attempts to explain them then yes it is WIFOM.
It isn't helpful.

On January 10 2012 04:09 Cwave wrote:


Wowowowo, you oversee(on purpose?) one thing. This is a 3 faction game but when it comes to lyncing, its a 2 faction game looking from your own POV(town,angel,demon).

Lynching is our only way to kill angels and demons help just as much with their lynch vote as the town when it comes to killing an angel.
So your point 3 is wrong cause when you are the AoD you want demon and town dead as they can lynch vote you. And of all the demons, the demonic courier is the one that can actually hurt the angel team. So hell yeah you would hit Palmar if you knew he was the courier.
Point 1) can you out your angel of death and get him couriered for 3 straight nights.
Point 2) can get you the twister or courier killed, all in the benefit of both the town and angels.

Another weird point if that you choose to eloborate point 3) with way more effort and text. If this was "The mentalist" or "Lie to me" i would call dibs in the couch on who was the liar as people tend to put to much effort in the lie they want to tell.

Points up on my suspected angel-list HoB......

On January 10 2012 03:08 layabout wrote:
Suspicious bastards:
risk.nuke
Refallen
Tyrran
Dirkzor
RoL
Jackal?
(there is town there but i think these players should receive heightened attention)

On January 10 2012 04:48 layabout wrote:
@ Hod

If you had been reading the thread the least obvious would have been Tyrran because i haven't really talked about him up until this point.
The others i feel i have already justified in a way that makes your questioning redundant.

On January 08 2012 13:54 Zephirdd wrote:
I dont think Tyrran is a good kill, in fact he is playinmg just like his meta.

On January 10 2012 02:27 Zephirdd wrote:
-snipped-
No, there is not enough info for pushing a lynch, but I'd like people to keep an eye on him. Also Tyrran, his posts are weird for me.

On January 10 2012 05:39 layabout wrote:
@HoD
If you wanted me to provide 100% of my reasoning then you should have asked that.

I had said enough previously for your vague question of "care to anything about it" to be redundant.

You call it empty useless filler.
Your posting today has been empty useless filler.
Unless you have anything valid and worthy of my attention to say to me then I am going to ignore you for as long as I feel like/

Care to explain anything about it?

Care to anything about it?

On January 10 2012 06:12 Cwave wrote:


As you choose to ignore my post and after reading your responses, you are forcing me to vote for your lynch HoD.

But what where you, you nowhere explain it from your POV but only from Palmar's. You explain incomplete scenarios for Angel possibilities trying to steer away but nowhere go into depth about the blue/town side. Might be because you want to protect your blue role or live as town.............

You only have to fear the lynch if you are an angel.....

...but there is literally a 0% chance of angels knowing which demon role Palmar was before he flipped so that is irrelevant. And you hit blues over demons because the seer, demon hunter, and channeler are all incredibly potent town assets against angels, and demons being alive gives you valid targets to scum hunt and get lynched instead of your teammates. If town is weak, sure, they might start killing off some demons on purpose, but them doing so now would be stupid. I elaborated point 3 because it was the only one that might actually be worth a damn to the demons.

On January 10 2012 06:29 Cwave wrote:
How is it not in the best interest of both the Angel Party and Demon party to try and hit the courier?
Noone could know that ofcourse but if you are either scum team and you suspect someone is scum aswell, you have a 1/3 to hit the courier right? Good odds imo and it seems Angel team wanted Palmar dead.

Good odds imo and it seems Angel team wanted Palmar dead.

With no ???? flip, RoL plan could still be put into motion. What do you think about it?

On January 10 2012 15:38 Blazinghand wrote:


"his play was so scummy he couldn't possibly be scum"

and Syllo if I have to push this through without you I will

On January 11 2012 03:38 Dirkzor wrote:
In the end I'll just quote how Tyrran have taken no stance on anybody he have written a case on. Note: These quotes are cut, but they are all the last part of Posts by Tyrran.

As you choose to ignore my post and after reading your responses, you are forcing me to vote for your lynch HoD.

On January 12 2012 00:03 syllogism wrote:
Alright, first of all I will never admit that was a poor lynch. Risk did no scum hunting at all following his single case post, which itself was suspicious, on day 1 and his defense made no sense at all. Further, a bunch of people acted suspiciously when asked for the opinion on him and Tyrran/Cwave refused to touch the lynch on two days.

The fact I was wrong likely means that I was not hit on day 1, which significantly increases the likelihood of HoD being the angel of death. I will have to consider something.

On January 12 2012 00:37 syllogism wrote:
Harbingerofdoom posted this day 1


This sounds as if you knew he was going to flip town. I suppose the problem with that is that he could still have flipped the other scum team.

Grackaroni you have basically stopped playing. Another player who clearly does not care about the game at all.

On January 10 2012 15:44 syllogism wrote:
HoD: I'll have to think about it more, but purely based on informational purposes risk is much better given the activity surrounding him on day 1

On January 12 2012 04:22 syllogism wrote:
Pretty much everything you said about Tyrran (passivity, lack of confidence in his reads, overall disinterest in the lynches) applied to risk as well. Can you point out what made risk look like a townie (?) to you?

On January 08 2012 08:15 risk.nuke wrote:
layabout is probably a townie, Question Palmar and Dirkzor, Erandorr and Jackal are red. Banish syllo/wiggles tonight, see you.

On January 08 2012 09:41 risk.nuke wrote:
whew, I'm so god damn relived right now

On January 09 2012 04:50 risk.nuke wrote:

Imo a town Palmar would respond to that with a pretty huge post declaring why the plan is dumb alternativly if he approved of the plan he would write additional thoughts or/and reason further why it is a good plan.

On January 11 2012 00:49 risk.nuke wrote:

lol, bullshit. There were a very very fucking very good chance that if you hadn't said that somebody else would had and you know that. The abillity has 2 functions, roleblock and save. Save is about 1000xtimes better. Period. I laugh at your "I said it first and it's an anti angel move so I can't be an angel" logic. fucking proposterous that you're trying to milk that so far. You're trying to claim that just because you're playing pro-town you can't possibly be scum. Ha. And right now you're tunneling me on a shitty case that only makes sense if you were an angel so thats what I think of you beeing pro-town.

On January 12 2012 04:44 syllogism wrote:
Besides you didn't "defend" risk or push Tyrran. You made a few posts stating on your opinion on the lynches (it sounded like you were ok with risk lynch). Who are the "other players" in the game you would have lynched over risk, besides Tyrran?

Overall I don't have a problem with your posting. The issue I have is that if you aren't AoD, why did they risk shooting me last night if I was likely going to be leading another mislynch?

On January 11 2012 14:02 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
@RoL
See this post for the current time remaining in the day: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603#6

Anyway, I got the chance to spend some time today doing a bunch of rereading, and after doing so I will not be voting for RoL nor Risk today. Maybe I'm being dense, but I really don't see them as being leading candidates for flipping scum. If I end up having to choose between the two to avoid a no lynch, I favor lynching Risk over RoL, but I'd prefer to lynch neither.

My top target remains Tyrran. His passivity and seeming lack of confidence in his reads and overall disinterest in the lynches just seems unlike most townies, and unlike how he played in my prior game with him. While I didn't want to make the following point yet to see if he would keep doing it, Dirkzor already brought it up and stated it quite well, so no reason not to restate it now:

While I think that alone is scummy for any player to do, here's some examples of how Tyrran himself presented cases in his prior game:
+ Show Spoiler +

I also dislike the look of xsksc->spaackle so far. I think the only original contribution either has made was spaackle's argument of Palmar looking town...which is not the best contribution to have.
xsksc's filter:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=149333
Spaackle takes over:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=164534


I would appreciate it if others would take a look at bluelightz and tell me what they think. I am having trouble seeing how his posts make sense from a town perspective or a scum perspective, which is baffling to me. He seems to really like doing post by post...but then summarizing instead of analyzing. I don't think I've ever seen such a style before.


@Cwave
Please try to make your posts a bit more clear. I understand that english may not be your native language, but reading your filter hurts my head. Also, a good deal of your logic seems questionable, but I am not sure if that makes you scum yet.
Some examples:
+ Show Spoiler +
Also, why did you say this:
And then never vote for me?

Geez that post came out longer than I expected. Ending with a vote on Tyrran, of course.
##Vote: Tyrran

On January 12 2012 04:49 syllogism wrote:
None of those posts demonstrate the things you were talking about and aggression against the person who is pushing to lynch you isn't particularly a townie trait. He didn't sound like a vt who was about to be lynched while town was still in a good position. That day one "phew I escaped a lynch" post sounded forced or at best null. He didn't make your top 5 most likely to be scum? You said you would vote for him over RoL at least. Who were your top 5 reads over risk and why didn't you talk about them?

On January 12 2012 23:20 Tyrran wrote:
Okay, I've been asked to make a case, So i'm going to explain here why HarbingerofDoom, despite his name, is an angel. Yes he has been active, and has been tunneling me. Some people migth think that this may him looks town. However, in a three faction game, and especially in this setup, the main goal of ANY faction, is to get rid of the other faction. Therefore, it is quite important for bot angels and demon to scumhunt and get the other faction lynched.

I'm going to add something else about the setup that everyone should have realized: Demons wins by corrupting town and lynching angels, Angels win by killing everyone. This means that each time a VT is lynched, it is a failure for demons as well, not only for town. They lose a potential corrupt target, and more importantly they failed to prevent angels from getting closer of winning. Angels on the other hand do not care. Sure they would have prefered to get a demon or blue, but they still have chances to get them with slay and stalk.

So my conclusion here is while it is important to properly scumhunt as Demon, Angels can just tunnel someone and be fine with it. If they get their target lynched : best case they killed a blue/demon, worst case a townie, but they are still one step closer to victory.

Im not going to focus on Jackal, but the same holds for him :

HoD and Jackal have done nothing but tunnelling this game. HoD on me, Jackal on Palmar then Dirzkor.

Not only that, but they had NO INTEREST at all about the player that was getting lyched.

Here are some example :

Day 1 : main Target are risk/palmar/Erandorr



Yup, lynch are fine. TUNNEL TYRRAN.

Day 2 : Its obvious lycnh are going to be risk or RoL


Every day i'm tunnelling...


Secondly, his post are full of contradiction, which are for me one of the biggest scumtell.





So he tunnels me based on a 1-game Meta, but still admits that meta lynch are unreliable. Wut ?



Of course he doesnt want a no-lynch to occurs, that's pretty mach the only bad outcome for angels at the end of day 1. Secondly, notice the "it is my understanding". He was the one to call for a Erandorr lynch based on meta. Yet this makes him look like he wasnt.

Thirdly : His reaction after Nigth one is strange, and deceptive.

I think you all remember on how his being the AoD is a possibility. Well his reaction after



Why does being sent to purgatory bother him? I mean, any regular townie would have been happy to be sent to purgatory as it makes you immune to any nigth actions. So this post alone makes me think that HoD is at least a blue, more likely and angel.



Okay, this post is just full of bullshit. I can see plenty of reason for demon to roleblock angels.

His post focus on why demons would try to save palmar. The goal of demons is not only to save themself, they also have to prevent angels to win. Banishing them is a good move in this regard as they have a high chance of reducing their KP ( as I stated before, any angel hit, be it town or demon,is actually bad for demon).

Secondly you once again makes it sound like angels do not want to target demons. This is plain wrong. They want to get rid of demons. Demons are at least as dangerous for angels than blues. Channeler and courrier have the same ability to RB them, and twister is an anti angel doctor. On the other hand, going for blue gives the risk of killing the demon hunter which is basically working for them early game.

You also make it look like angels would not target palmar because he could be lynched day 2. I do not agree. If they have a strong demon read on someone, i think angels would go for it. For once because they cannot be sure that he will be lynched next day ( it could very well have been risk or RoL over palmar again), and secondly because they was no corrupted town yet, finding a blue would be difficult.


So because his plays correspond perfectly on how I think angels would play, because he contradict himself, and because he keeps telling shit about angel strategy, I think he is an angel himself. And I think we shoud lynch him tomorrow.

Anyway, my lunch break was a bit longer that it should have been, will be back later tonigth.

So he tunnels me based on a 1-game Meta, but still admits that meta lynch are unreliable. Wut ?

Why does being sent to purgatory bother him? I mean, any regular townie would have been happy to be sent to purgatory as it makes you immune to any nigth actions. So this post alone makes me think that HoD is at least a blue, more likely and angel.

His post focus on why demons would try to save palmar. The goal of demons is not only to save themself, they also have to prevent angels to win. Banishing them is a good move in this regard as they have a high chance of reducing their KP ( as I stated before, any angel hit, be it town or demon,is actually bad for demon).

Secondly you once again makes it sound like angels do not want to target demons. This is plain wrong. They want to get rid of demons. Demons are at least as dangerous for angels than blues. Channeler and courrier have the same ability to RB them, and twister is an anti angel doctor. On the other hand, going for blue gives the risk of killing the demon hunter which is basically working for them early game.

On January 13 2012 03:41 layabout wrote:

What in the fuck?

On January 13 2012 04:52 layabout wrote:

Why on earth do you base your decision of "does killing town benefit demons?" on an unrealistic (and in this game impossible) extreme scenario in which there are 3 demons 1 corrupted town and 2 angels left in the game?

In order for them to make use of the corrupted town mechanic demons need to corrupt town players. They need these players to be alive to count towards their win condition.

All three angels and the sage are immune to corruption. Plus the demons cannot corrupt themselves.
The demons get 1 corruption every two nights.
As it currently stands:
there are 13 non-demons out of 15 players.
9/13 can be corrupted. 3 blues 6 vanillas.
it is likely that several of these players will not still be alive by night 4 (the demons next corruption).

Killing vanilla town weakens the power of corruption drastically. It reduces the number of players that can be corrupted increasing the chance of is missing. And it increases the proportion of blues and Angels in the player base which increases the chance that demons will be investigated or killed. Demons need to kill 2/4 blues and 3/3 angels and gain a majority with corruption, killing vanilla town is a bad lynch from the demons perspective only a demon or the seer flipping is worse for them. (the value of a channeller lynch for them could be argued either way as the channeller keeps players alive but could stop a corruption).

On January 13 2012 08:35 layabout wrote:

Your bullshit score is under 5% congrats.

If i were to suggest to you that the majority of HoD's post are about "safe" or irrelevant issues that do not require him to take a stance; That he draws and promotes strange conclusions; that a lot of his interaction's and question answering ignore the issue at hand; that he picks up on non-issues and tries to uses that to defeat arguments; and that misrepresents scenario's or mis-applies concepts like occam's razor you would say what?

On January 13 2012 08:49 syllogism wrote:
HoD you asked Grackaroni, Spaackle and Cwave for their scum reads and they mostly didn't materialize. Do you not care? You have been quite detached from the game; certainly not one I would characterize as someone who attempts to produce information and then do something with it. Indeed you seem to put most of your efforts into defending yourself or arguing about irrelevant game mechanics/strategy issues.

On January 13 2012 08:53 syllogism wrote:
Limited time and instantly delurk

On January 12 2012 23:20 Tyrran wrote:
-snipped intro-
HoD and Jackal have done nothing but tunnelling this game. HoD on me, Jackal on Palmar then Dirzkor.

Not only that, but they had NO INTEREST at all about the player that was getting lyched.

Here are some example :
-snipped examples-
+ Show Spoiler +


Secondly, his post are full of contradiction, which are for me one of the biggest scumtell.
-snipped examples-
So he tunnels me based on a 1-game Meta, but still admits that meta lynch are unreliable. Wut ?
+ Show Spoiler +




Of course he doesnt want a no-lynch to occurs, that's pretty mach the only bad outcome for angels at the end of day 1. Secondly, notice the "it is my understanding". He was the one to call for a Erandorr lynch based on meta. Yet this makes him look like he wasnt.
+ Show Spoiler +

Thirdly : His reaction after Nigth one is strange, and deceptive.
+ Show Spoiler +



Okay, this post is just full of bullshit. I can see plenty of reason for demon to roleblock angels.
+ Show Spoiler +

On January 12 2012 05:41 syllogism wrote:
Tyrran post a case on someone you would like to be lynched tomorrow and it can't be Jackal and it can't be copy/pasted material like everything else you've said so far.

First of all : "Assuming the angels use their acolyte to try to kill people with dark powers, which I assure you they will " If this isnt a angel claim, then i dont know what it is. Do what you want with your acolyte, but I really do not see why blues are priority target and demons/corrupted town are not. Killing the DH early would be really bad for angels. Killing a corrupted town however is really good for them. Why wouldnt they try to reduce the demons voting power ?

Secondly : Wtf if this tl:dr ? Demons should win without using corrupt ? Are you going to argue next that Angels should win wihtout killing anyone ? I look forward to you hosting a normal game where scum has no KP and town has vigs because " well scum can just survive while everyone else dies".

This is your ultimate argument ? That my case against you did not fullfill the Syllogism's standard and therefore is, I quote : "Trolololol". Well, that sure makes you look town.

Lastly : So Syllo is not AoD. Would the AoD have targeted Syllo N1 ? If you consider that 1) Syllo was very likely getting banished and 2) Syllo was pushing for lynching 3 non angel target ( palmar(Demon), Erandorr(VT), Risk(VT), ). There was absolutely no reason for AoD to shoot him N1. So either you are AoD, or he shot you. The only reason he would have shot you is by shooting randomly ( as you had no reason to be killed prior to any other player), meaning there was a 1/10th of a chance that you would get hit.
So it boils down to this: Either you are AoD, or you got shot which had about 10% chance of happening. Well, math says that there is 90% chance you are AoD.

On January 11 2012 14:02 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
@RoL
See this post for the current time remaining in the day: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603#6

Anyway, I got the chance to spend some time today doing a bunch of rereading, and after doing so I will not be voting for RoL nor Risk today. Maybe I'm being dense, but I really don't see them as being leading candidates for flipping scum. If I end up having to choose between the two to avoid a no lynch, I favor lynching Risk over RoL, but I'd prefer to lynch neither.
-snip-
Geez that post came out longer than I expected. Ending with a vote on Tyrran, of course.
##Vote: Tyrran

On January 11 2012 14:02 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
@RoL
See
-snip-

On January 12 2012 04:16 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
Alright
-snipped-

On January 12 2012 04:42 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
gasdjafeaiuhfaisdf
-snipped-

On January 12 2012 04:54 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
Err,
-snipped-

On January 14 2012 13:49 Refallen wrote:


This was the post where you claimed you breadcrumbed sage...because like, four of the first letters in 22 sentences just happen to make up sage!

I'm not convinced v.v

On January 14 2012 18:34 Blazinghand wrote:


Anyone who thinks that breadcrumbs are a reasonable explanation or support for a claim needs to spend some more time thinking.

A good scum player breadcrumbs every blue role during the start of the game, then points them out if he wants to claim. This should be obvious.

The real question we should be asking is: Where did HoD breadcrumb his investigative results in the event of being shot by the acolyte?

On January 14 2012 07:26 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
Grackaroni is also less likely scum than I previously thought, I reread his filter and looked through his filters from his previous games and overall he seems ok. Don't have time to explain more now, but wanted to at least say that before I had to leave for like 5 hours or so.

I like Grack's case on Spaackle; I still have a hard time to understand why HoD was jailed n1, and by who. Maybe his posts about mechanics made Palmar want him roleblocked? No idea, but I can't see HoD as scum from his filter.

Alright, Harbingerofdoom's only scum read in the last few days has been Tyrran and now he isn't so sure any more. He doesn't think blazing is scum. Probably not Grackaroni. RoL? Nope. Cwave? Err, no HoD didn't really say that either, though apparently he was one of the people he would have lynched over risk. Spaackle? He dislikes "the look of spaackle", asks him a question and doesn't follow up. No scum anywhere apparently

On January 15 2012 03:50 syllogism wrote:
I did not and we've a reason to believe that Wiggles was the sage. Are you going to spend your time today posting analysis or are you going to be really busy again?

On January 14 2012 03:53 Zephirdd wrote:


I just think it's a waste of game mechanics; Killing someone who people didn't knew would create a bigger confusion, as in "we don't know how many demons live". MrWiggles was obviously not a Demon, so it is kind of a waste of a mechanic. Granted, we don't know if he was a blue, but I don't think it matters as much at this point.


I like Grack's case on Spaackle; I still have a hard time to understand why HoD was jailed n1, and by who. Maybe his posts about mechanics made Palmar want him roleblocked? No idea, but I can't see HoD as scum from his filter.

RoL still looks like the best lynch, but we'll see what happens.

On January 14 2012 10:04 Zephirdd wrote:


I'm playing billiards with a couple of friends atm, finding some time to post in between. If you care, I'm crushing them hard.

HoD has been basically invisible this game; nothing about him, besides the jailing, stands out. However, it makes a lot of sense that AoD would target you.

HOWEVER, being "invisible" is usually a scum trait. So yeah, I'm willing to vote him; I really want to see his response though


I've said it before, and I'll say it again though. Take a good look at Spaackle's posting, now and in the future.

Also lol @ layabout being serious about that scum flip probability. How you apply math on something so inexact, I have no idea.

~>Voting HoD as of now

On January 14 2012 13:51 Zephirdd wrote:
Unvoting HoD for the following reasons

A) Less chance of ninja scum hammering
B) I want to hear other people's(esp. syllo) thoughts on this
C) I fail to understand why is it so hard to believe that the AoD targeted syllo night 1, instead of HoD=AoD

I'm sleepy atm, so I'll brb tomorrow. Mb I should leave my vote back on Spaackle. Actually, yeah, I'll do that.

'night

On January 10 2012 02:27 Zephirdd wrote:
Yes, I know I am on that list as well, but that's just because I was this close to sucking him yesterday after his case. That was due to the XLVIII fiasco and I told myself "listen to veterans you know". I swear I'd probably end up helping demons this game, had Palmar not died.

On January 11 2012 03:24 Zephirdd wrote:
Syllogism, sir Lynch leader, please explain this situation. Anyone else is also invited to do so.

On January 14 2012 09:23 Zephirdd wrote:
Let me be clear tho; I don't like to create new cases even though I'm willing to take responsibility for it. Reason is simple: 100% of cases I have made by myself were wrong. AKA. I don't trust myself.

I haven't reread filters, but currently I'm still liking HoD/RoL/Zephirdd as the angel team and Grackaroni and/or Tyrran as demon(s) and then one or two others. If HoD/RoL both flip angel, which should be clear by the end of tomorrow, there's a high chance of Zephirdd being the third and not just because his strange behaviour before the lynch.

On January 14 2012 19:23 syllogism wrote:
Wiggles warned about trusting breadcrumbing and posted this on n2



I think he investigated RoL on n1 and got not-demon

It also solves the problem of having to convince people to lynch him if he flips demon

On January 14 2012 22:52 layabout wrote:
I will vote just before 8:00 KST.
You will know why.

On January 15 2012 06:47 syllogism wrote:
He said he won't post until tomorrow, so basically HoD and RoL both gave excuses for not doing anything before the lynch. Likely because they feel it's wasted effort as they don't have towns interest in mind.

3.Grack (Leaning Town)

HoD said that grack was not angel, but what if he is a demon?. He has been sheeping but, how he post's make me lean town.

On January 15 2012 19:38 syllogism wrote:
HoD: I don't know why you bother arguing about your role as if you aren't the AoD, you will be cleared by the day post. You keep making excuses for your activity and still find yourself unable to call anyone scum. Are you going to be busy tonight? Can we expect you to make some real cases in which you actually reach a conclusion? You know something like this

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12135649

On January 15 2012 21:43 layabout wrote:

I am not quite sure what you mean...
I said i would vote at that time
I did not wish to vote earlier because the last early lynch ruined the atmosphere and killed activity.
It also meant that by 8:00KST the lynch would almost certainly happen, which would give RoL plenty of time to help us if he wanted to.
He didn't.

Also why is HoD trying calling me scummy for using my 250th post to articulate a bullshit law?
It's literally called "Laybout's Bullshit law".
It is based entirely on Bullshit.

I haven't used it to scumhunt whatsoever.
But doing it lightens up the reading though filters process and allows me to highlight things i think players have done/said that are misleading bad or wrong etc...

On January 16 2012 04:29 syllogism wrote:
That's not a meta argument at all; you can pretend the link isn't there and it is just as valid reason to believe your play isn't consistent with that of a townie. What you wrote about Tyrran applies quite well to you as well


Even when you were in danger of being lynched you didn't particularly care

On January 16 2012 04:49 syllogism wrote:

Yes, you realize these are heuristics and can not conclusively determine alignment. Anyway, the hostility seems unnecessary considering it's your own lack of commitment to the game that has lead you to this point if you are town. Whether you have been busy is irrelevant and I strongly dislike people who keep making excuses for their activity day after day. You chose to join this game. Moreover, day post should clear some suspicion of you if you are town, so again you should concentrate on what matters rather than attacking someone who is clearly town.

On January 16 2012 11:19 Grackaroni wrote:
I'm pretty suspicious of you're check HoD.
@HoD : Why did you choose to check Layabout? What led you believe he was a demon?

On January 14 2012 22:52 layabout wrote:
I will vote just before 8:00 KST.
You will know why.

On January 06 2012 22:47 layabout wrote:
having read through recent townie Palmar games:
nothing to see here (clicky) Palmar trolls and call people stupid
stundent mafia he was smurfing as electric black Palmar make lots of reads
election mafia read about half of this and filtered syllo+palamar hyra Arctocod, run for major and call people stupid
Steamship mafia Palmar analyses and calls people stupid
TL Mafia XLVII Palmar runs for major and calls people stupid

I have seen quite a lot of variability in how town Palmar behaves, after these i read resistance I(which isn't quite mafia) and responsibilty mafia in which palmar was 3rd party/scum.

In those games i could not confidently make inferences about his meta and correctly use them to determine whether he is scum or town, because there was not enough common day1 town traits that have become clear to me in the games of his i have read through, thoroughly. This was largely due to the variance in his play on day1.
I feel like i have spent quite a lot of time reading through his post but i feel like i would need to do more to establish a strong read based on his meta that i would confidently support.

On January 06 2012 22:14 layabout wrote:
What do all of these players have in common?
Blazinghand
Bluelightz
Dirkzor(?)
Grackaroni
HarbingerOfDoom
layabout
Tyrran
xsksc
Zephirdd

To my knowledge they (we) are all relatively new to TL mafia having played a small number of games each. It seems highly unlikely that any of us will have read a large enough number of games to have strong understanding of any other players meta.
If you do not have a strong understanding of a certain players meta you cannot use your own judgement of that players meta against them. You cannot compare their play to your idea of their meta and reach a conclusion.

Instead you are reliant on other players assessment of that player meta and how their play this game is supposedly incriminating. As town you should be reliant on your own judgements and reach your own conclusions and you should not vote entirely because somebody else has a reason that you cannot verify*.

Furthermore despite my limited experience of your various playstyles even i was able to spot an error in Wiggles "meta analysis
Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game.


Apparently he often trolls day1 anyway? If players who feel that they know his meta disagree about what his meta is how can i or the others trust them?

Simply, voting for a player based soley on meta that does not come from your own judgements instead of voting based on your own judgements is either bad town play or scum play.
Mr. Wiggles is encouraging people to vote for bad reasons (from their perspective)

since at least half of the players in the thread have an extremely low chance of having solid enough meta on Palmar and Palmar isn't going to vote for himself, then the majority of town cannot justify an entirely meta based case vote on day 1.

-Similarly i cannot justify voting based on risk.nuke's meta.

-As far as i am concerned Grackaroni doesn't have any points worth considering against HoD.

-I also see no case against RoL.

Therefore we should go for a proper case with reasons that we can support, instead. We should lynch Grackaroni.

*well you could verify it by spending a long time going through past games but i doubt that anyone has the time nor the effort to spare to do so```
```are footnotes within footnotes better or worse than spoilers within spoilers?

On January 07 2012 15:03 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:

No, I accused you of being non-aggressive/passive, not of being inactive. Saying that you weren't very active at first in steamship doesn't have any bearing on the argument I am making.

Comparing these posts, which were 2 of your first 4 posts in steamship:
+ Show Spoiler +
to your play so far just seems incredibly different. It reads to me like you are playing scared this game. Scared because you're scum.

Underlined: In steamship, if town had lynched those 7 players you would have killed zephird, Greymist and cyber cheese, since Greymists role is what killed town after the roleclaim then that plan arguably would have won the game, so i don't get what your point is.

his original question was "Hey look - a list! Care to explain anything about it? Lists without reasons are pretty useless filler."
I wanted to make the point that given how vague this question was and given that i had raised suspicions about the players in the list i felt that it was redundant question. I then challenged him to make his first real contribution.
But alas my inept typing/formatting let me down.
And like every other person to lose an argument ever he corrects my grammar and ignores my point.

Underlined:Clearly a lot of people didn't have null reads on risk nuke as he had reached 9 votes before AND was under a lot of pressure at this time AND was lynched quite a while before the lynch deadline.

On January 06 2012 05:26 layabout wrote:
Grackaroni:
In this post his writes a pile of nothing to call HoD scum. my comments have been italicised

Emphasises the "Unless you have a counter" part. As if that justifies the don't talk about scum strats in an open setup stance. (it doesn't)

bolded: "Don't use meta from my first (but recent) game against me. I have changed. Use meta from a game where i was account sharing day1 when you try to analyse my day1 play, or use meta from another game". The "I've obviously adjusted my play" really doesn't hold weight given how few games he has played.

The sage on the other hand probably shouldn't claim unless he has 2 demons identified. If he claims with only one identified, 0% chance of reducing kp or reducing the corruption ability, demons have a roleblock ability, angels can kill the sage to make demons a larger threat to town thereby reducing focus on them. Still gain information obviously, but overall seems like a much weaker play than the seer claiming after finding an angel.

When he said just that the sage should not claim without two "demon" results?
If he was the sage it would make sense to add, "if they are going to be lynched then the sage should claim" because that is what he claims he is doing now.
According to day1 HoD the sage should not have claimed in day 3 HoD's position. Day3 HoD had zero demons identified.

top part just isn't valid.
+ you had no reason to mash your keyboard as if the other person is wrong and can't see it because you are wrong.

He posts what i think are townreads? Which is odd because he has called Spack and BL scum RoL is getting lynched instead of him, he hasn't commented on jackal other than (he was right about Palmar) and he then starts to attack me..

You then post very little to called Zephird, one of your bottom 6 un-town-like

On January 16 2012 05:16 syllogism wrote:
If you are town, you should examine the wagon on you before you claimed and what people were saying. Actually I'm now reading it a bit and this is somewhat changing my view on things

On January 14 2012 10:03 Grackaroni wrote:
EBWOP : in case I didn't make it clear.
##Vote: HarbingerOfDoom
he has a good chance of being the AoD and nobody wants to vote the people I think are likely to be scum.

On January 14 2012 03:53 Zephirdd wrote:


I just think it's a waste of game mechanics; Killing someone who people didn't knew would create a bigger confusion, as in "we don't know how many demons live". MrWiggles was obviously not a Demon, so it is kind of a waste of a mechanic. Granted, we don't know if he was a blue, but I don't think it matters as much at this point.


I like Grack's case on Spaackle; I still have a hard time to understand why HoD was jailed n1, and by who. Maybe his posts about mechanics made Palmar want him roleblocked? No idea, but I can't see HoD as scum from his filter.

RoL still looks like the best lynch, but we'll see what happens.

On January 14 2012 10:24 Bluelightz wrote:
@LB I'm back and should I vote?

On January 14 2012 10:27 Bluelightz wrote:
Okay, i'll wait for more people to start posting. Also, can you link me to cases against HoD?

On January 14 2012 10:33 Bluelightz wrote:


"Hey everybody let's lynch HoD cmon"

On January 15 2012 04:03 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:

Fine, and yes, tomorrow you will get more from me. Significantly more. If you want, I can post all my suspects tomorrow but it doesn't make much sense when we can only lynch one at a time, but I will get around to it. I work all weak between the hours of 12-6 roughly, but around those times I will work in more analysis.

HoD, your claim seems of desperation and as I pointed out the correlation between you and BH and him not mentioning you at all for the last 3 pages of his filter don't sit right. That, and I know you are a better lynch than me.

On January 14 2012 10:49 Refallen wrote:
Honestly I don't know what to think of Bluelightz. He dosen't make any sense to me at all. I feel like no one is going to oppose lynching him, but then he might just as likely flip town vanilla, something that has happened countless times when we tried to go after people who aren't making any sense (again, election mafia comes to mind here).

That being said, HoD now has 5 votes. Tyrran and Grackaroni I'm not sure of, but I'm fairly certain layabout, syllo, and Zeph are all town. Jackal, what do you think of us two hammering? I feel like a switch is unlikely at this point.

I dislike a lynch on Bluelightz. He have been active and trying to contribute. How his contributions have helped town can be discussed but I take that as bad play rather then him being scum. He is just a guy who saids what he wants in one sentence. =)

Dirkzor is not set in stone. Maybe we should not lynch him despite him being scummy, because he migth flip town.

On January 17 2012 14:57 Blazinghand wrote:


This much should be obvious. We need to lynch an angel, even if there are only two. If we do not lynch an angel today, I don't see how town can win.

Why don't you see Layabout flipping Angel?

On January 18 2012 03:12 layabout wrote:
there are very unlikely scenarios in which all of the demons are dead.
for instance, wiggles and syllogism could have been a demons killed by angels and RoL an angel whose kill was concealed.
0demons 2 angels ct gets own vote
whilst it seems sensible to dismiss this possibility we should dismiss it actively rather than pretending it is not possible.

We should consider whether or not different possibilities should have an impact on our decision-making.
I think that, that example should not affect out decision-making but i also think that treating things like that as impossible and then treating much more likely possibilities that would have a real impact on what we should do, is something that we cannot afford to do.

On January 17 2012 09:12 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
Oh yeah, and Wiggles is guaranteed to have been town-aligned. Angels wouldn't kill one of their own, and the twister and the concealer were alive during the day yesterday (concealer acted during the day, twister at night). I know it was already extremely likely he was town, but just thought that might be worth mentioning.

On January 18 2012 03:56 layabout wrote:
given how passive and disinterested people have been playing and the lack of votes and lynch candidates and cases, wouldn't it be fair to say that most of the people in the thread are uncertain of their scumreads, and by extension must find everyone else either town or null?

On January 18 2012 03:53 layabout wrote:

so thats:
Town
Any
a bit scummy
leaning town
maybe angel
probably demon
probably town
Any
hopefully town

1 scum read
2"maybe" scum
2 i havent a clue

Bluelightz had:

1 maybe scum
2 maybe scum, maybe town.

way to go stick your neck out and criticise BL from a position that you could legitimately do so from.

On January 18 2012 04:00 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
Zephirrd T_T

On January 18 2012 04:19 Zephirdd wrote:
Nevermind the double 'r'(which I HATE)

On January 18 2012 04:23 layabout wrote:
he isn't suggesting a scenario
he is posting his read on players based on what he has read.

"seems scummmy" is not a scum read, it's very non-committal
"he is scummy" on the other hand would pretty much a scum read
"he is scum" is a scumread

"Probably" indicates that you think him being scum is the most likely alignment
"seems" or "scummy" is not
"seems and scummy" is not a scumread.

On January 18 2012 06:07 Blazinghand wrote:


if you don'[t think he's an aangel, don't vote for him. if you do, vote for him. don't pussyfoot around the issue.

On January 18 2012 06:10 layabout wrote:
if you insist on pussyfooting, could you please use your angel wings to fly to the gallows?

On January 18 2012 06:14 Blazinghand wrote:


Instead plz convince ppl of your best read

. That way we can win?

On January 09 2012 04:45 Dirkzor wrote:
See, all i have is your word for it.

But i guess we can lynch him and if he flips town we lynch you...

On January 09 2012 20:37 Dirkzor wrote:
Actually:

##Vote Cwave

Either he is scum with palmar or he is a townie with a bad read (on me).

On January 13 2012 04:17 Dirkzor wrote:
Blazinghand, I think your case is bad. We can agree that RoL have been useless but so have others. The only real argument you have is that he proposed his plan deliberatly to hurt town which I find unlikely.

His reasons for not pushing the plan now is actually quite pro-town in my book since it would just hinder other discussion. And he may have different ways of pushing his case then posting the same thing over and over *cough* BH *cough*.

Either way, I have written it before and I'll do so again. I think RoL is a bad lynch. I would like to see him scumhunt soon though.

On January 14 2012 00:52 Dirkzor wrote:
Jackal.. Have you forgotten me? I was so used to your devoted attention!

Assuming Wiggles was town, and i assume that, it puts more pressure on RoL. That was the last person that Wiggles talked about (and attacking me about). Combine that with a wall-of-text case that is actually not very big in terms of content I see RoL as more scummy then before he started scumhunting. His case is just not good, its just long so it appears to be good/solid. Long is not always better.

Wrong. After RoL claimed VT he could later have claimed channeler without it looking suspicious. As he had already claimed VT he could wait for everyone else to claim. The channeler would be missing and he could then claim channeler and most would believe him because no one else claimed channeler. If someone else claimed channeler before him he could counter-claim and town would lynch RoL (and get channeler), but after that we would lycnh the person who claimed channeler as he was lying.

On January 09 2012 11:36 Jackal58 wrote:

It makes more sense for Palmar to protect a teammate than to try to block a blue. I think Palmar sent Syllo to purgatory.
Is anybody corrupted?

On January 09 2012 22:25 Jackal58 wrote:

This is the guy that needs to go today. He's scum.
##Vote: Dirkzor.

On January 11 2012 23:45 Jackal58 wrote:

You are best lynch. But I'm not going to hold my breath. Let's see if there is a reason for voting for somebody nobody else is interested in voting today.
##Vote: risk.nuke.

If you flip town risk I am sorry.
And now I await everybody telling me how scummy I am for hammering you.