|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 00:57 TruthBringer wrote:
I don't like the idea of using a zodiac list. I feel like it can be used by the mafia to get townies to hang other townies.
I don't think we should lynch anyone on day 1, personally. I know mafia get kills at night, but blues also have powerful abilities at night.
People are saying 6/25 is high, but it is probably offset by the town having powerful blues or quite a few blues.
Also, I've been out of the TL mafia loop for awhile, so if it comes to day 1 lynching, I'll be completely worthless as I can't read any of you at all.
If we end up no-lynching today, that is ok(although non-optimal). Keep in mind our Day 1 goals:
1. Create a positive atmosphere. Clarity, no arguing, etc.
2. Get everyone's votes and thoughts down on paper. Force scum to bullshit about who they want to lynch and why.
3. Establish baselines of activity for players for use in future days.
Again, a no-lynch is not the end of the world, but we don't want to enter the day with a mindset of no-lynching. We want to enter the day planning to find scummy players, and gather a majority.
You don't need to be able to 'read' anyone. Support people making sense, lynch people who are playing poorly. Past experience with players is useful, but not essential by any means. Even if you don't think you can find scum, contribute and make sure you don't get mistaken for one(assuming you are town).
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 01:46 redFF wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 22:07 Radfield wrote:On December 04 2011 21:59 hyshes wrote:On December 04 2011 21:26 Radfield wrote:On December 04 2011 19:38 Palmar wrote:
Sup.
If we assume the hosts went with the most obvious way of balancing the game, two people out of this list are scum:
Radfield
Palmar
Jackal
sandroba
syllogism
redFF
I'm not sure if I agree with that list. I could easily see 1 of those 6 being scum, not two. I would narrow it down further if you want to go that route: Radfield Palmar sandroba syllogism 1 of those 4 are scum. However, I think that kind of thinking is at complete odds to proper play. Towns can be stacked and still implode(Caller. BC and Fishball in Closed Casket), and mafia can be stacked and still get washed out(Radfield, iGrok, Kitaman, GGQ, DocH, Cyber_Cheese in LOTR). If hosts are smart they will start true RNGing the set-up and seeing how things turn out. So you guys don't exclude yourself from a 'possible scum list"? Of course not  I don't expect you to think I am town based on me saying so. I expect you to watch my play and gradually exclude me from being scum based on merit. or just autolynch you if you don't die night 1 
I'd prefer you to wait until after night 2 At that point I wouldn't blame you.
I'm 8 for 9 on being dead before then when i'm an unprotected townie, and 4 for 5 on being alive when scum.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 01:57 TruthBringer wrote:
@prplhz
We don't have to do anything on the first day. Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something.
I admit that we have more data if we hang someone, because we can see that person's alignment and who voted for him and who voted elsewhere. But more data doesn't mean we are in a better position. If we hang a powerful blue, and the mafia isn't overrepresented in the vote to lynch him, that does us no good.
You seem to think that I can pick out scum just based on bad ideas, but some people are just not good players or come up with bad plans, how am I to know the difference? Like I said, I don't have the experience right now to make the distinction.
Also, there can be differences of opinion. You and I might both be good guys and honestly have different opinions on whether it is a good idea or bad idea to hang on the first day.
At some point we have to do something. We can't just sit around letting people die until an investigative role(which may or may not exist) pops in and gives us a red result. On day 1 and 2, more data almost always DOES mean we are in a better position. Roles are far far less important than the people using them. I'm not about to sit around waiting for blues who may be derping with their roles anyways, and you shouldn't be either. I'm also not going to worry about lynching someone who looks scummy because they might have a good role.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 02:35 syllogism wrote:
To be fair, I directly asked him what would a balanced scum team be like. I'm more interested in the lie, or more generously a distortion or careless wording, he used in his attempt to attack me.
Also not liking how Sandroba popped in to ask a few relatively pointless questions and then disappeared without commenting anything. However, It's rather unlikely I will be advocating lynching either of them d1 and they do have quite a while to shape up anyway.
Triple agree.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 02:34 VisceraEyes wrote:
Red's case on Palmar is surprisingly good (as far as d1 cases tend to go)...I've skimmed the whole game and I'm up to page 7 in an actual read-through (moving backward), and I'm good with this.
##Vote: Palmar
Wishy-washy setup speculation and no opinions. Scum.
No, the case is based on Palmar actually having something to say, as if it wasn't the first post(s) of the game. Why are you so eager to put down your vote?
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Deadline is in 31 hours or so.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
VisceraEyes, care to direct me to a few of your previous games, preferably one where you were scum?
We need a whole lot more chatter in here:
1. StimilantE
6. Erandorr
16. kingjames01
18. Soap
19. Lanaia
22. vaderseven
24. Hier
You folks need to get in here and start talking.
3. Refallen
7. hyshes
10. Jackal58
11. sandroba
13. TruthBringer
23. Mattchew
and you guys need to talk more.
New discussion topic:
+ Show Spoiler [ Jackal's first post] +On December 04 2011 23:57 Jackal58 wrote:
Good morning. Role confirmed. Game on.
Random lynch on day 1 seems counterproductive to me. On day anything really. What would you perceive as a benefit to doing that Palmar?
Posting lists right out of the box about players who are likely on the scum team due to the hosts balancing reminds me a bit of Zodiac lists that have been posted in previous games. More often than not those lists were posted by scum. At least in the games I've seen them used in. You scum Palmar?
The only way to 100% establish your innocence is to die.
The last few games I've been trying to watch how scum players enter the thread. It's something I've always found a little difficult as scum. You have to somehow establish yourself in the thread, while simultaneously not draw attention... or at least that is the inclination.
This post jumped out at me, and I'm wondering if it jumped out at anyone else. The tone, the touching on every subject, the shifting of attention back onto Palmar(twice).
Anyone else or am I seeing things?
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Drazerk, what do you think of Jackal? What do you think of Visceraeyes? What do you think of Risen?
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Care to expand on those thoughts Drazerk? Or feel free to pick your own topic.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
What you saw was ambiguous annul and can be taken two different ways:
"Just want to sit around and wait for power roles to do OUR job" The "our" in this case can mean "the townies". As in, waiting for the power roles to do the townies job for them(scum hunting).
or
"Just want to sit around and wait for power roles to do OUR job" It can mean what you are implying: having townies sitting around waiting for the blues to do their job(night actions).
Given the context of his statement, it seemed apparent he meant the first meaning, and was not blue claiming at all.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 06:08 redFF wrote:
radfield what do you think of palmar, you seem to have ignored my case on him which is the only coherent case in the thread so far.
what do people think of corrupt stating "so many suspicious people already" and then when asked who, stalled for a while before only listing 1/2 players?
Zephirdd's non vote then vote after i pushed him also strikes me as scummy.
I'm waiting for Palmar to respond, and to play more. I don't mind your pressure though.
Corrupt looks terrible after that exchange, almost too terrible I'll admit that I'm not really sure what make of it just yet. If we had no other good majority candidates, he would be an excellent fall back at this point.
Zephirdd's vote was humorously scummy, but I think it was done in good faith. He's on the good side of the line for the moment.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 06:10 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 06:02 Radfield wrote:
Care to expand on those thoughts Drazerk? Or feel free to pick your own topic. Really I just want jackal to post a bit more before I get a read on him. I really don't have that much on VE bar the fact he is Sheeping red I generally dislike anyone who agrees with me too much. It's a habit I got from earlier games but people wanting me alive generally turn out to be scum ( Unless I've claimed mason or done something extremely stupid )
Fair enough. I was intending to wait for a few more Jackal posts before writing that, but the thread seemed like it could use a kick in the pants.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Nope, don't want a no-lynch
I assure, I will very much be pushing or supporting a lynch today. In addition, if my 'random' vote stays on prp all day, THEN you can call me scummy(and I will agree), but the day is not yet half over, and I'm not going to bounce around like a madman. My vote served it's purpose.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 07:55 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 01:33 Radfield wrote:On December 05 2011 00:57 TruthBringer wrote:
I don't like the idea of using a zodiac list. I feel like it can be used by the mafia to get townies to hang other townies.
I don't think we should lynch anyone on day 1, personally. I know mafia get kills at night, but blues also have powerful abilities at night.
People are saying 6/25 is high, but it is probably offset by the town having powerful blues or quite a few blues.
Also, I've been out of the TL mafia loop for awhile, so if it comes to day 1 lynching, I'll be completely worthless as I can't read any of you at all. If we end up no-lynching today, that is ok(although non-optimal). Keep in mind our Day 1 goals: 1. Create a positive atmosphere. Clarity, no arguing, etc.
2. Get everyone's votes and thoughts down on paper. Force scum to bullshit about who they want to lynch and why.
3. Establish baselines of activity for players for use in future days.Again, a no-lynch is not the end of the world, but we don't want to enter the day with a mindset of no-lynching. We want to enter the day planning to find scummy players, and gather a majority. You don't need to be able to 'read' anyone. Support people making sense, lynch people who are playing poorly. Past experience with players is useful, but not essential by any means. Even if you don't think you can find scum, contribute and make sure you don't get mistaken for one(assuming you are town). He mentions some truth and not so good things in a mixed up manner here. No lynches make day 1 worthless and the daytime is the time that the town has power. The town is an uninformed majority (or else the game is over) and a majority controls the lynch. In his list of 3 goals for day 1 I find goal 1 to be one that is there to just discredit aggressive players, point 2 is 100% correct and the only real goal, and point 3 is a neutral fall back thing to state as any alignment. He says a no lynch isnt the end of the world but then makes it clear how we should never start of thinking it is a goal. I really think he is trying to subtlety push this option. He doesn't want to get labeled as pushing it but is trying to bring up every small detail that can be viewed as positive for such a end to the day. His 2nd goal, the one that matters the most and is the most correct, is the one that he is not doing himself. I find that to be scummy as hell. He KNOWS the reasons for needed votes and cases and yet has a RNG vote (that he declared before making was worthless via stating that RNG isn't useful).
No lynches do NOT make day 1 useless. However, I agree that no lynching is bad, and that we don't want to do it. Lets leave it at that.
Goal One is absolutely not there to discredit aggressive townies. There is a very big difference between being aggressive and shitting up the thread. Two players arguing back and forth is awful for a town, mafia is allowed to coast, and can easily redirect attention. Two players calmly discussing reads can work wonders(read Mini mafia X with Palmar and Sandroba). I'm stating that one of our primary goals is to keep the thread moving appropriately, and down avenues that are constructive to town.
Aggression is just fine: Redff is being aggressive, and I like it. prplhz is being someone aggressive, and it's good too. Annul is also aggressive, and doing a fine job. No problems with any of their play so far.
Point 3 is also important. Scum players tend to be more active at the beginning of a game, and taper off as the game goes on. Town players tend to do the opposite.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 08:09 Toadesstern wrote:
I interpreted what he said as disagreeing with me and some other people who said a no-lynch is the worst possible option for town. I think he just wants to imply that a "probably-/maybe-townielynch" is worse than a no-lynch and I just don't think so.
He wants to have this option as a final save I guess, instead of lynching someone he thinks is a townie.
However I think he's wrong with that one because as far as I can see a no-lynch will be ruining town-atmosphere. A no-lynch happens when there's no majority so town splits up, which does not have to be the end of the world but if there's noone telling us which side was right it will give us a 2nd day that's just the very same discussion again, with everyone who thought his choice on day1 was right thinking his choice is still right and the other way arround.
If that happens town atmosphere is really screwed imo.
Happened 2 games ago to me and I don't want it to happen again. I was a blue in a beginners-mini and said something along the lines "everyone please start posting, no matter if you're blue or green we need you and if you're a blue trying to hide that really gives you away". So a bunch of people came along and said I'm scum because I'm telling blues to reveal themselves and they tried to lynch me and someone else. A no-lynch happened and we had the same scenario for 3 days until I got shot on night3 by mafia. Days 1 and 2 were wasted because there was a huge fight over who of us two is actually mafia, day 3 was wasted because of a shitty decision that had nothing to do with that.
Sooooo, I don't really want that to happen again.
I would definitely prefer no-lynching over lynching someone I have a strong town read on. However that was not really my point. My point is that even if we wind up at a no-lynch, we still gain a lot of valuable information from the day, and that it's no reason to get upset or feel like town is now at a disadvantage. The reason town atmosphere gets screwed (imo) is not because of the no-lynch, but rather due to the reactions to a no-lynch.
The real problem with your scenario is that players were not willing to change their reads. Day 2 is NOT the same as Day 1, no matter if there is a lynch or not. Your reads should be constantly evolving and narrowing down onto scum, hence why even in no-flip(alignment not revealed on death) games towns can still do decently.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 08:16 vaderseven wrote:
I guess I just can't get over the wifom element of point 3 but I am also the type that posts alot no matter what.
In all fairness, point 3 is not nearly as important, and is just something I generally do. It's really just a corollary of point number 2. I imagine if you read the townie guides you would not find it in there
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 08:17 syllogism wrote:
Radfield: do you really find that annul is being aggressive and doing a fine job? I thought he played well in XLVII but so far his pressure has been directed towards irrelevant things, such as prplhz's "slip" and some general strategy related topics
I think he's doing a great job establishing himself as likely green. His aggression seems honest, though I agree somewhat misguided. Eventually it will swing around.
I also fully agree with his pushing of prplhz's "blue claim". I've always been of the opinion that anything I can see, mafia can see.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 05 2011 08:21 redFF wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 08:09 Radfield wrote:
Redff is being aggressive, and I like it. ![[image loading]](http://i54.tinypic.com/dwdv1x.jpg)
You just made me randomly burst out laughing
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Sandroba, you gonna weigh in any time soon?
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Assuming he is town, he's trying to generate discussion, ANY discussion, given that it was basically the first post of the game.
I'd much rather we stop talking about Palmar until he actually responds. It's far too easy for people to pop in and say "yeah Palmar is the only one who looks fishy right now". Lets drop it for 8-10 hours and have people comment on other players.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
