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On November 22 2011 08:59 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 08:34 Foolishness wrote:On November 21 2011 23:42 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game. XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions. Really dude? I hope I didn't come across as blaming you for the loss any more than myself. I actually firmly believe that I was the primary reason town lost that game. I was disruptive, annoying and despite my reads being solid I couldn't get town to act on them. But yes, in general, it's always your own fault. You had great reads that game, better than mine, but that's completely useless if you can't convince town on them. Even if town is retarded, then it's your responsibility to use retard-proof-logic to get them on your side. I failed miserably at that. You had slightly more success, but ultimately not enough was done, and town lost. I refer to my earlier rants in the miscellaneous mafia thread (just filter me) if you want perspective on this view of mine. I disagree with Ace that "sometimes you just can't carry bad towns", because for every retarded town that doesn't accept logic and fails, there's scum somewhere who is pushing terrible logic and convincing town with it. It's similar to poker. You can't apply high level play to a bunch of terrible newbies, you have to adapt.
There is no such thing as retard-proof-logic. Why do you think they're called retards?
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On November 22 2011 09:50 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 08:59 Palmar wrote:On November 22 2011 08:34 Foolishness wrote:On November 21 2011 23:42 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game. XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions. Really dude? I hope I didn't come across as blaming you for the loss any more than myself. I actually firmly believe that I was the primary reason town lost that game. I was disruptive, annoying and despite my reads being solid I couldn't get town to act on them. But yes, in general, it's always your own fault. You had great reads that game, better than mine, but that's completely useless if you can't convince town on them. Even if town is retarded, then it's your responsibility to use retard-proof-logic to get them on your side. I failed miserably at that. You had slightly more success, but ultimately not enough was done, and town lost. I refer to my earlier rants in the miscellaneous mafia thread (just filter me) if you want perspective on this view of mine. I disagree with Ace that "sometimes you just can't carry bad towns", because for every retarded town that doesn't accept logic and fails, there's scum somewhere who is pushing terrible logic and convincing town with it. It's similar to poker. You can't apply high level play to a bunch of terrible newbies, you have to adapt. There is no such thing as retard-proof-logic. Why do you think they're called retards?
LOL
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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On November 22 2011 08:59 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 08:34 Foolishness wrote:On November 21 2011 23:42 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game. XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions. Really dude? I hope I didn't come across as blaming you for the loss any more than myself. I actually firmly believe that I was the primary reason town lost that game. I was disruptive, annoying and despite my reads being solid I couldn't get town to act on them. But yes, in general, it's always your own fault. You had great reads that game, better than mine, but that's completely useless if you can't convince town on them. Even if town is retarded, then it's your responsibility to use retard-proof-logic to get them on your side. I failed miserably at that. You had slightly more success, but ultimately not enough was done, and town lost. I refer to my earlier rants in the miscellaneous mafia thread (just filter me) if you want perspective on this view of mine. I disagree with Ace that "sometimes you just can't carry bad towns", because for every retarded town that doesn't accept logic and fails, there's scum somewhere who is pushing terrible logic and convincing town with it. It's similar to poker. You can't apply high level play to a bunch of terrible newbies, you have to adapt.
BC's Mafia Resurrection. Town lost with a 2/5 votecheck and a 5/10 votecheck. Why? Inactives. Sometimes you can't carry bad towns.
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I'm on the logo I <3 you so much kav 
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On November 22 2011 09:50 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 08:59 Palmar wrote:On November 22 2011 08:34 Foolishness wrote:On November 21 2011 23:42 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game. XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions. Really dude? I hope I didn't come across as blaming you for the loss any more than myself. I actually firmly believe that I was the primary reason town lost that game. I was disruptive, annoying and despite my reads being solid I couldn't get town to act on them. But yes, in general, it's always your own fault. You had great reads that game, better than mine, but that's completely useless if you can't convince town on them. Even if town is retarded, then it's your responsibility to use retard-proof-logic to get them on your side. I failed miserably at that. You had slightly more success, but ultimately not enough was done, and town lost. I refer to my earlier rants in the miscellaneous mafia thread (just filter me) if you want perspective on this view of mine. I disagree with Ace that "sometimes you just can't carry bad towns", because for every retarded town that doesn't accept logic and fails, there's scum somewhere who is pushing terrible logic and convincing town with it. It's similar to poker. You can't apply high level play to a bunch of terrible newbies, you have to adapt. There is no such thing as retard-proof-logic. Why do you think they're called retards?
I used to work with "Retards", mentally retarded people that is. (What's the politically correct English term now? intellectual disability?) I had a summer job for 2 years back when I was 17-18 which involved guiding/motivating/helping these people. They were really nice, but obviously couldn't function normally in society and work.
If I needed the group to do a particular task, I couldn't apply the same logic as I could if I had simply been telling a group of normal people what to do.
You have to bend yourself to your audience. There is always some argument that will work. In mafia terms, maybe the worst town in history will lynch the first player who says the word "scum", but if that happens, you were responsible for recognizing that this would be the standard the town would use, and bait a random mafia into saying the word.
It's always, always, always your fault, and your fault only.
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On November 22 2011 21:14 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 09:50 Incognito wrote:On November 22 2011 08:59 Palmar wrote:On November 22 2011 08:34 Foolishness wrote:On November 21 2011 23:42 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game. XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions. Really dude? I hope I didn't come across as blaming you for the loss any more than myself. I actually firmly believe that I was the primary reason town lost that game. I was disruptive, annoying and despite my reads being solid I couldn't get town to act on them. But yes, in general, it's always your own fault. You had great reads that game, better than mine, but that's completely useless if you can't convince town on them. Even if town is retarded, then it's your responsibility to use retard-proof-logic to get them on your side. I failed miserably at that. You had slightly more success, but ultimately not enough was done, and town lost. I refer to my earlier rants in the miscellaneous mafia thread (just filter me) if you want perspective on this view of mine. I disagree with Ace that "sometimes you just can't carry bad towns", because for every retarded town that doesn't accept logic and fails, there's scum somewhere who is pushing terrible logic and convincing town with it. It's similar to poker. You can't apply high level play to a bunch of terrible newbies, you have to adapt. There is no such thing as retard-proof-logic. Why do you think they're called retards? I used to work with "Retards", mentally retarded people that is. (What's the politically correct English term now? intellectual disability?) I had a summer job for 2 years back when I was 17-18 which involved guiding/motivating/helping these people. They were really nice, but obviously couldn't function normally in society and work. If I needed the group to do a particular task, I couldn't apply the same logic as I could if I had simply been telling a group of normal people what to do. You have to bend yourself to your audience. There is always some argument that will work. In mafia terms, maybe the worst town in history will lynch the first player who says the word "scum", but if that happens, you were responsible for recognizing that this would be the standard the town would use, and bait a random mafia into saying the word. It's always, always, always your fault, and your fault only.
This is probably the most arrogant thing I have ever read O.o
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If you find that arrogant you're misunderstanding me completely. I apply this to myself just as much as anyone else, which is why I'm very self-critical when I fail. I know we're dealing with a language barrier, but I don't wanna come across rude.
The picture I'm trying to draw is that blaming circumstances is stupid because they're out of your control, the only thing you can control is yourself, so that's where the change has to happen.
You wouldn't use the same attitude and arguments to convince your friends to go out for a couple of beers, and to convince your boss you need a raise, right?
You wouldn't use the same arguments to explain to children why they have to go to sleep, as you'd explain to a top athlete that he needs good sleep to maintain his performance?
It's one of the basics of motivational speaking and argument skills, you have to know your audience.
And I think it applies very well to mafia. Sometimes you get lucky and you end up with a town that will listen to your arguments, because what you're presenting works for them, but sometimes you screw up, and someone other than you leads the lynch.
Food for thought:
I consider myself to have failed terribly if I don't agree with the person who is lynched on day 1. That means someone other than me played better than me, and explained his arguments in a way that better related to town. So that means I lost. And I lose all the time. Someone brought up Cosmic Horror Mafia. I lost an argument there on day 1, and we no-lynched. That was my fault.
GMarshal doesn't agree with me (he played that same game, and shared my day 1 read), he thinks the problem is with the town that failed to see we were right, which is understandable, and I respect the fact that we simply don't agree.
I, however, am of the opinion that I cannot change people, I can only change myself. So I say the responsibility of the failure lies within myself. Even if GM and I were right, and other people were wrong, it was my fault not being able to show them why they weren't right.
Even in games where I have pushed town lynches on day 1. It still bothers me if I can't get it done. It's not about being right, that's the easy part. It's about being able to project your opinion.
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On November 22 2011 23:18 Palmar wrote:
The picture I'm trying to draw is that blaming circumstances is stupid because they're out of your control, the only thing you can control is yourself, so that's where the change has to happen.
Sure. You can raise your individual skill level to dizzying heights but there is only so much impact one person can have on the game. It's not necessarily blaming circumstances but recognizing the reality of the environment you play in. There is no perfect way to convince everyone to agree with you just as there is no sure-fire way to get people that don't play seriously to read the thread. You could become the God of Mafia with complete omnipotence and a near 100% Scum catch rate and you will still lose games because there are too many variables that you have no effect on.
I consider myself to have failed terribly if I don't agree with the person who is lynched on day 1. That means someone other than me played better than me, and explained his arguments in a way that better related to town. So that means I lost. And I lose all the time. Someone brought up Cosmic Horror Mafia. I lost an argument there on day 1, and we no-lynched. That was my fault.
No it doesn't, but you can take that view if it helps you rationalize events. People get lynched for all kinds of reasons on Day 1, and guess what? Some of the time you can't stop it. If everyone in the game was willing to play by listening to arguments and making decisions based on that then maybe I'd say this would be a possibility - but the game doesn't work like that. Policy lynches, meta arguments, grudges, Scum/Town motives and just general chaos can determine a Day 1 lynch just as easily as the best persuasive arguments. You could say you failed if you let some of these things go by and decide the lynch but then you might as well quit playing because a lot of lynches early in the game will be out of your hands.
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On November 22 2011 23:18 Palmar wrote:
If you find that arrogant you're misunderstanding me completely. I apply this to myself just as much as anyone else, which is why I'm very self-critical when I fail. I know we're dealing with a language barrier, but I don't wanna come across rude.
The picture I'm trying to draw is that blaming circumstances is stupid because they're out of your control, the only thing you can control is yourself, so that's where the change has to happen.
You wouldn't use the same attitude and arguments to convince your friends to go out for a couple of beers, and to convince your boss you need a raise, right?
You wouldn't use the same arguments to explain to children why they have to go to sleep, as you'd explain to a top athlete that he needs good sleep to maintain his performance?
It's one of the basics of motivational speaking and argument skills, you have to know your audience.
And I think it applies very well to mafia. Sometimes you get lucky and you end up with a town that will listen to your arguments, because what you're presenting works for them, but sometimes you screw up, and someone other than you leads the lynch.
Food for thought:
I consider myself to have failed terribly if I don't agree with the person who is lynched on day 1. That means someone other than me played better than me, and explained his arguments in a way that better related to town. So that means I lost. And I lose all the time. Someone brought up Cosmic Horror Mafia. I lost an argument there on day 1, and we no-lynched. That was my fault.
GMarshal doesn't agree with me (he played that same game, and shared my day 1 read), he thinks the problem is with the town that failed to see we were right, which is understandable, and I respect the fact that we simply don't agree.
I, however, am of the opinion that I cannot change people, I can only change myself. So I say the responsibility of the failure lies within myself. Even if GM and I were right, and other people were wrong, it was my fault not being able to show them why they weren't right.
Even in games where I have pushed town lynches on day 1. It still bothers me if I can't get it done. It's not about being right, that's the easy part. It's about being able to project your opinion.
Nope, I understood you just fine ^.^
Arrogant is probably a harsh word, I would say ultra competitive may be better ?
Lets take a game of basketball and you are the star of your team. You yourself play extremely well, but since your team consists of 14 year old 5 foot tall overweight children, you still lose. If I apply your logic, then you would still blame yourself for the loss , that you only scored 80 points instead of the 140 necessairy , while getting 20 blocks instead of 5 and 40 instead of 7 steals that game (God that fucking lockout ). You can't really think that way without being extremely convinced in your own abilities and talent , so actually I think arrogant covers it just fine :D
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On November 22 2011 23:31 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 23:18 Palmar wrote:
The picture I'm trying to draw is that blaming circumstances is stupid because they're out of your control, the only thing you can control is yourself, so that's where the change has to happen.
Sure. You can raise your individual skill level to dizzying heights but there is only so much impact one person can have on the game. It's not necessarily blaming circumstances but recognizing the reality of the environment you play in. There is no perfect way to convince everyone to agree with you just as there is no sure-fire way to get people that don't play seriously to read the thread. You could become the God of Mafia with complete omnipotence and a near 100% Scum catch rate and you will still lose games because there are too many variables that you have no effect on. Show nested quote +
I consider myself to have failed terribly if I don't agree with the person who is lynched on day 1. That means someone other than me played better than me, and explained his arguments in a way that better related to town. So that means I lost. And I lose all the time. Someone brought up Cosmic Horror Mafia. I lost an argument there on day 1, and we no-lynched. That was my fault.
No it doesn't, but you can take that view if it helps you rationalize events. People get lynched for all kinds of reasons on Day 1, and guess what? Some of the time you can't stop it. If everyone in the game was willing to play by listening to arguments and making decisions based on that then maybe I'd say this would be a possibility - but the game doesn't work like that. Policy lynches, meta arguments, grudges, Scum/Town motives and just general chaos can determine a Day 1 lynch just as easily as the best persuasive arguments. You could say you failed if you let some of these things go by and decide the lynch but then you might as well quit playing because a lot of lynches early in the game will be out of your hands.
I do not strive to be perfect, I strive to be better. I am fully aware I will never have a perfect record, but that's no reason to dismiss the failure as something that cannot be improved upon. Only by holding yourself to the highest standard can you become better.
Every pro-starcraft player aspires to win every game, and so do I aspire to win every argument and every town over. I am far from reaching that goal, but that doesn't mean I should quit.
I am aware it's far-fetched to think I can do what I want to do, but just as the best starcraft players only have 70%-ish winrate, yet they want to win every game, they don't quit because they know the goal is almost unattainable. There is no point where I will stop trying to improve.
You are essentially correct that expecting a 100% success rate is wildly optimistic, if not impossible, but does that mean I should just throw a bad lynch away as a "stupid town" or should I analyse my own play and try to improve?
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Starcraft is an individual sport where only being in control of yourself correlates highly to winning. The same doesn't apply to Mafia, especially with subjective measures such as winning an argument. You could win every argument in the game and people still won't vote the way you want them to.
You shouldn't throw away every bad lynch as stupid Town but you should recognize when you've done all you can to make the right play. You're telling this to someone who has played the most games with bad casts. I've tried time and time again to show stupid Towns the basis behind something only for them to tune it out and do their own thing (usually resulting in a loss). Get better as much as you please but realize short of mind control you won't be able to control others' actions in a team game.
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I'm learning mind control then.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
Just don't try to mind control a bus driver that buses himself with another player and expect it to turn out well.
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On November 23 2011 00:00 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 23:18 Palmar wrote:
If you find that arrogant you're misunderstanding me completely. I apply this to myself just as much as anyone else, which is why I'm very self-critical when I fail. I know we're dealing with a language barrier, but I don't wanna come across rude.
The picture I'm trying to draw is that blaming circumstances is stupid because they're out of your control, the only thing you can control is yourself, so that's where the change has to happen.
You wouldn't use the same attitude and arguments to convince your friends to go out for a couple of beers, and to convince your boss you need a raise, right?
You wouldn't use the same arguments to explain to children why they have to go to sleep, as you'd explain to a top athlete that he needs good sleep to maintain his performance?
It's one of the basics of motivational speaking and argument skills, you have to know your audience.
And I think it applies very well to mafia. Sometimes you get lucky and you end up with a town that will listen to your arguments, because what you're presenting works for them, but sometimes you screw up, and someone other than you leads the lynch.
Food for thought:
I consider myself to have failed terribly if I don't agree with the person who is lynched on day 1. That means someone other than me played better than me, and explained his arguments in a way that better related to town. So that means I lost. And I lose all the time. Someone brought up Cosmic Horror Mafia. I lost an argument there on day 1, and we no-lynched. That was my fault.
GMarshal doesn't agree with me (he played that same game, and shared my day 1 read), he thinks the problem is with the town that failed to see we were right, which is understandable, and I respect the fact that we simply don't agree.
I, however, am of the opinion that I cannot change people, I can only change myself. So I say the responsibility of the failure lies within myself. Even if GM and I were right, and other people were wrong, it was my fault not being able to show them why they weren't right.
Even in games where I have pushed town lynches on day 1. It still bothers me if I can't get it done. It's not about being right, that's the easy part. It's about being able to project your opinion. Nope, I understood you just fine ^.^ Arrogant is probably a harsh word, I would say ultra competitive may be better ? Lets take a game of basketball and you are the star of your team. You yourself play extremely well, but since your team consists of 14 year old 5 foot tall overweight children, you still lose. If I apply your logic, then you would still blame yourself for the loss , that you only scored 80 points instead of the 140 necessairy , while getting 20 blocks instead of 5 and 40 instead of 7 steals that game (God that fucking lockout ). You can't really think that way without being extremely convinced in your own abilities and talent , so actually I think arrogant covers it just fine :D
Assuming the only variable that's within my control is my own play, then yes, I would blame myself for the loss. I have been assigned exactly one body and half a brain to go with it. That's all I can use to influence the world around me. Sometimes the situation has very little chances of succeeding, but that doesn't mean I'll stop trying.
I always thought arrogant implied the feeling of superiority towards others. I recognize that there are people who are better than me, and I learn from them. I also recognize there are people who are worse than me, and I try to help them.
I am super competitive, a sore loser, very confident yet self-critical. If that makes me arrogant, then I'll live with that.
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Palmar I am very curious and you must have put a lot of thought into that, why do you think that a lot of towns don't follow you even if you present your arguments in a well thought out way?
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Because in Mafia, everyone has to be critical of what is said. Scum can still present their arguments in a well thought out way.
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You can waste a lot of energy trying to run into a brick wall. Pick your battles. You can't win all of them.
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I'm more or less with Palmar on this one.
First off, sure, there will come times when playing the perfect game will still not net you a win. Yeah, you're not at fault for the entirety of the loss, but that doesn't mean you can't blame yourself for the entirety of the loss.
If you lose a game, and blame another player for it, you have no reason to improve. There is nothing gained by blaming another player for losing the game, and a ton to be gained by blaming your self. You will never play the perfect game. You will always make mistakes, you will always do stupid things (unless you are ace). This means that you will never run out of room for improvement.
So from the standpoint of someone who wants to improve, why would you ever blame someone else for the loss of a game, when you could better your self as a player by blaming yourself for it? Take that to an extreme, and you can blame yourself for the entirety of the loss, and maximize the scope of what you intend to improve on.
I hold to a similar philosophy in general, though I phrase it differently: Nothing is perfect, but eventually it becomes unprofitable to improve them. This means that I'm never satisfied with anything I do, because I KNOW that I could have done it better.
And no, that's not arrogance. Arrogance is attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner. Palmar's not overbearing in that regard. Quite the opposite. It's simply a different way of viewing humans: We all have nearly unlimited potential, and almost anything is possible. How much of the potential we achieve is how Palmar (and to some extent, I), view ourselves.
Like I said earlier, it's never profitable to think that something is perfect, because then there is no reason to improve.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On November 23 2011 00:08 Ace wrote:
Starcraft is an individual sport where only being in control of yourself correlates highly to winning. The same doesn't apply to Mafia...
As Ace said, mafia is not an individual game. It is a team game. It so happens that some or all of the players have incomplete information about who is on their team, but it is still a team game. Sure, there are losses in which primarily one individual is at fault (a good example of this would be Dota/LoL/HoN), but blaming yourself everytime for every loss will just lead you down a road where your ability will plateau.
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EPT
