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Fantasy Mafia League![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wJ0lX.jpg)
Play Fantasy Mafia League! It's fun, easy, and makes watching Mafia games much more exciting. You don't need to spend any time on managing your team during the season if you don't want to. If you don't fully understand the rules, don't worry. The basic thing to remember is, pick players for your "Main Team" that you think will do well, and pick players for your "Anti Team" who you think will do poorly.
Fantasy Mafia Scoring
Player Scoring:
Game Win: +2 Points
Game Loss: -1 Point
Lead a successful lynch: +1 Point
Lead a miss-lynch: -1 Point
Shoot a Blue: (scum only) +1 points
Peg a scum: ½ points
Peg a Townie: -1/2 point
Team Scoring:
You get a maximum of 8 points for a perfect game, and 2 points are subtracted for each teammate lynched, with a minimum of 1 point for a victory. You lose only one point for each member after 4. (With a minimum of -2 for a loss)
Miscellaneous
Trade Tax: -1
How to Play
- You choose 6 players and either Town or Mafia that score points when they play well.
- You pick 3 players that lose you points when they play well.
- Players can be traded between weeks for those valued less than them.
Team Selection
Main Team
- Pick 6 players for your Main Team, including a captain who will be a tiebreaker
- Pick Mafia/Town
- You cannot trade your captain (more on trading later)
- Your 6 players and team cannot exceed 30 points in cost
Anti Team
- Pick 3 players for your Anti Team
- These players will score points just like Main Team players, but their score counts against you
- Your Anti Team must have a value of at least 13 points (minimum)
Basic Team Selection Strategy
- Pick players for your Main Team who you believe will exceed their point value from last round (underrated or rising players)
- Pick players for your Anti Team who you believe will do worse than they did last round (overrated or slumping players)
- Designate as Captain a player who you believe will be a lock to be good throughout the season, because you can't trade him
Trading
Trading Rules
- Each week you can trade players (swap a player for someone you don't have)
- Every player has a trade value, and you can only trade for players of lower value
- You will be limited to a maximum 2 Main Team and 1 Anti Team trades per week
- Trades do not carry over if unused
- Each time you trade, your team will be assessed a -1 point trade tax
Basic Trading Strategy
- Check lineups each week! Players in the lineup are usually more valuable.
- Don't make trades just for sake of making trades, as they cost you trade tax points and you may get stuck with a player you don't want
- The trade price formula takes into account number of matches remaining -- so players with more matches remaining will have higher prices
- You must trade for players with less value, but try to minimize the value loss. For example, if you trade someone worth 30 for someone worth 20, next week you can only trade the 20 for someone less. It's much better to trade the 30 for someone worth 29.
Groups
You will be able to create and join groups so you can compare your results with a smaller subset of the players, for example there might be a Staff Group, a First Time FML Group, a USA Players Group, or a group created by you with just your friends.
Good luck, and tell your friends!
+ Show Spoiler +Sections of this post shamelessly stolen from Hot_Bid, who likely took parts of that post from others and so on.
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do we just post our teams in the thread?
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
lolol
If you ever need more scoring categories, you may borrow from the mafia report card
On August 14 2011 06:56 kitaman27 wrote:
Role claim scum: -100
Role claim Chezinu: -50
Invent a false post restriction: -20
Caught lying: -10
Attempt to discredit the mafia revolution: -7
Attempt to contribute, without contributing: -5
Push a lynch on a flipped town: -3
Call Kita scummy: -3
Fail to complete your daily self-analysis: -2
Role fish: -2
Lurk: -1
Spam: -1
Complete your daily self-analysis: +2
Provide an analysis of a player: +3
Push a lynch on a flipped scum: +5
Role claim as the Batman: +10
Lynch Kavdragon: +25
Lead a mafia revolution: +100
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Which Mafia game will this take effect on? =)
Also, can you pick yourself...?
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United States2186 Posts
How can you have a fantasy league without player prices!?
Also, a - points for getting lynched is mysteriously absent. But it makes sense or otherwise everyone would pick you for their anti.
^_^
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What about people who have multiple accounts?
Do I get their backup names as well? 
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Anti-Team:
Sinani206
Sinani206
Sinani206
That was easy!
Now to think of my main team...
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Seems like a fun idea.
Now you get to go through every game in TL Mafia history to figure out player prices. :p
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lol this is an awesome idea
i wonder who will pull a savior first though and ruin esports forever
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omg /in whythefuckisn'tthisalreadyathing
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I fear this might influence people ingame
*cough* this guys on my anti-team and he's likely to continue being bad, so we can't kill him day 1
or even worse, Putting yourself on your anti-team and specifically playing badly, or being on someone elses team and being behind them to purposely playing badly.
I like the idea, really, but it just seems to conflict with
9. Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits.
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i hear you Cyber_Cheese but i really don't think people would cheat in games just to get ahead in mafia fantasy proleague .. i just don't think it's that important to people compared to actually playing well
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Lol if you go ahead and value players that would be hilarious. Clash of hurt egos incoming ! :D
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On November 21 2011 21:21 Erandorr wrote:
Lol if you go ahead and value players that would be hilarious. Clash of hurt egos incoming ! :D
No way, if you think you are undervalued you get a great deal on yourself! If you think someone else is overvalued you stick them on your anti-team! It's perfect! Not to mention some players don't play very often, so even though they are good players, you may need to lower their value a bit.
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lol, this has so much potential.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Player Scoring:
Game Win: +2 Points Do all town players get the points in town wins and likewise all for losses?
Game Loss: -1 Point
Lead a successful lynch: +1 Point How is this defined? First vote? Can multiple people lead the lynch?
Lead a mis-lynch: -1 Point
Shoot a Blue: (scum only) +1 points
Peg a scum: ½ points Does this just count as voting for x? Do scum get points for voting town?
Peg a Townie: -1/2 point
Getting lynched should be -1 point I think, whether you are scum or town.
What about using blue roles? +1 point for successful use of powers(medic prot, vig hit, hatter bomb)? Or is it better to make the points role neutral.
Should surviving till the end of the game be +1 point for scum?
I feel like there should be no - points for day 1 lynches.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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On November 21 2011 22:59 flamewheel wrote:
wat
wat?
E: Well that was a 1k post that sums up all 999 before pretty perfectly ^.^
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I propose this alternative to the scoring system:
General:
Game Win: +2 Points - All players on the winning side gain 2 points.
Game Loss: -1 Point - All players on the losing side lose 1 point.
Town scoring system:
Vote for scum day 1: +1 point - This simply awards you points for playing well on day 1.
Vote scum in LYLO: +1 point - Obvious
Get lynched: -1 point - Probably universal (we might exclude millers, not framed people though).
Get lynched day 1: -2 points - The ultimate failure
Get murdered night 1 (only applies if you voted for scum day 1): +1 point - This is to help mend the problem of good townies getting owned and their team then failing
Scum scoring system
Kill a blue night 1: +1 points - applies to the entire scum team.
Get lynched: -1 point - This should probably exclude a bus initiated by a teammate (first vote is from scum).
Avoid a lynch after a townie claims a guilty investigation: +1 point - Reward good arguing skills
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United States22154 Posts
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You can play the best damn game of mafia ever, that if 4/5 townies get modkilled, it won't make a difference. Also, I feel like deducting points for "incorrect" reads of players is also a bad idea, since sometimes you do that to gauge reactions. Also how do you define "leading" a lynch? How about leading a mislynch? what if the person you mislynch was being super anti-town?
I don't think mafia is a game that lends itself well to this.
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On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control.
You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault. And usually I've at least helped in wins.
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United States22154 Posts
On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game).
Counter evidence:
PTP: 1
Foolishness in XLIV.
WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;)
Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win)
SNMMVI: anyone who tried
Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game.
EDIT: I'm not saying that single players cannot have huge influence in the game, but at the end of the day it can't all be on one person's shoulders.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
GMarshal is just worried about how many anti-teams he would be on.
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I think every scumplayer who survives until the end should maybe get a point or two as well.
The thing that is problematic is that you can play a very good game regardless of faction and still not fall under any categories that reward you. What if someone randomly throws a vote on a guy and you push a great case as the 2nd person? What if you fuck town up gloriously as scum , there is not really a way to get rewarded for that , too.
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How about a MVP vote by the players or the hosts that give you 5 points and a couple for the runner-up?
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maybe caller games and newbie games shouldn't count
i like the mvp vote too, it's probably also gonna inspire some more post game while people figure out who exactly they're gonna vote for which is always great
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On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game.
So yeah, you pull out a theme game that's universally accepted as having been terribly unbalanced, a caller game and a newbie game. Notice that none of these would ever have anything to do with this, as it would probably only apply to normals and mini-normals. You can't really do much if you have highly themed games (multiple families, or stupid mechanics).
XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions.
Cosmic Horror: Again, that was our own damn fault. We failed by not getting wiggles lynched day one. Mafia made a superb play by killing me instead of you n1 (I was the doctor and I tried to protect you). And then they did a very cool bus move to seal the win against a crippled town. They deserved that win.
And even then, assuming we use my addition to the system, all you have to do to make up for a bad result is to just not suck day 1 and vote for scum.
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On November 21 2011 23:36 Erandorr wrote:
I think every scumplayer who survives until the end should maybe get a point or two as well.
The thing that is problematic is that you can play a very good game regardless of faction and still not fall under any categories that reward you. What if someone randomly throws a vote on a guy and you push a great case as the 2nd person? What if you fuck town up gloriously as scum , there is not really a way to get rewarded for that , too.
Thought about that, but that would discourage bussing, which is a great mafia strategy.
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United States22154 Posts
Not going to argue with you Palmar, because neither of us is going to be swayed, I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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♥
+ Show Spoiler +yeah, I know I'm a bit fanatical on the "the only reason you lose is you" front.
It's because I hate people who don't assume responsibility.
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What about the MVP vote. Anyone else like that?
Happy Birthday Radfield!
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
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United States22154 Posts
Happy Birthday Radfield!
This calls for a celebratory nuke
##Nuke: Radfield
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Radfield and RoL share a birthday...
This is super suspicious.
♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫
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On November 21 2011 14:19 Ver wrote:
How can you have a fantasy league without player prices!?
Also, a - points for getting lynched is mysteriously absent. But it makes sense or otherwise everyone would pick you for their anti.
^_^
need player price
kk, time to go back to sleep
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also isn't it gonna be a problem with activity, some people are more active than others like choosing foolishness for your team it's hit and miss if he even wants to play
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Alright, so this was a fun experiment.
It started out with me thinking, Fantasy Starcraft.....Huh. Fantasy Mafia would be funny. I'm going to make up a Fantasy mafia thread, just to troll people. So I did. I was hesitant to post this at first cause thought, "Yes, it's a troll, but I KNOW people will try to get me to do it anyways, and I don't have time". That was almost exactly what happened oddly enough. However, what I realized while reading up on all the replies, is that while I think the fundamental idea of a Fantasy Mafia league is flawed (for reasons I'll try to detail later), I think that some sort of mini-game/betting pool would be an excellent idea. I don't play too often because I don't have time, but I still like to read up occasionally, and I miss Mafia when I don't play it. I have a feeling that several of the older players have similar feelings.
The problem with Mafia fantasy league as I presented it is that it's a team game. Individual people aren't responsible for an entire win. Someone could lurk all games as town, while two people carry the team to victory. Should they be awarded the same number of points? No. So how do you go about points then? Without an extremely complicated system, you'll never be able to give people the credit they deserve with. How would you score the awesome associated with a Professor Badass picture, or getting lynched when you've played quite well for town? The only way to figure these things out is with some sort of point system like Ver used at the end of PYP Insane (I think?). And the problem with that is that it necessarily includes the bias of the person who is judging.
In short, Mafia is much more complicated than something like Proleague, because it's not just about the win.
"But look at the reception!" you say. Yes. That got me thinking. There's a reason why this sounds appealing: Many of us don't have time to play all the time, but want to remain active in some way that doesn't take hours of analyzing. Because of this, I think I'm going to create an Observer's League (name pending).
This is a fresh idea in my mind, so I'd love input, but here's the basic idea: The prospect of betting on play and players is exciting for me. (more than just me, as this isn't an original idea). It's a way to stay involved with Mafia when you don't have time to play. I don't know if it can exist in a highly ordered form like Fantasy Proleague, but it can certainly be something more simply, like betting on the number of pages the thread will have at the end of each day/night. It would co-exist with the type of round table discussion that we had a few months ago.
The betting/predictions would need to be kept somewhere secret for the duration of the game (i.e., quicktopic), and the results published afterwards. Obviously, no one in the game would be allowed to be involved, and the same rules that apply to observers would apply here. (No leaking info on bets to players and such).
So. What do you think of that idea? What sorts of things should be bet on? What information should the observers be given? (Should they know who the scum team is?)
Total number of pages at the end of the game
Total number of pages on a player's filter at the end of the game
Town/Mafia victory
Specific player getting misslynched
Specific player getting modkilled
Number of players modkilled
etc.
Should there be general categories that everyone votes on, or should it be free form, where people can make any bet they want? A hybrid?
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Just letting any perspective bettors know that I'm certainly not oppossed to match fixing.
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United States22154 Posts
On November 22 2011 02:45 kitaman27 wrote:
Just letting any perspective bettors know that I'm certainly not oppossed to match fixing.
You uttered the two words which must be avoided! Woe is you, for here comes the pitchfork waving mob! How dare you speak of match fixing!
##Lynch: Kitaman27
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On November 22 2011 02:56 Hesmyrr wrote:
So where's the mob?
We are here!
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I brought the torches and pitchforks!
Purge the heretic! Kill the mutant! Smite the matchfixer!
AMEN!
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Edit: GMarshal and his botnet army -.-
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On November 22 2011 02:58 BayonnetAnderson wrote:
I brought the torches and pitchforks!
Mr.Fluffles brought his pitchfork too!
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GM just made me smile ^.^
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*Meow*
/wave tiny pitchfork
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Woo! I just won my first bet! GM reached his 8th smurf by the end of the week!
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On November 22 2011 02:45 kitaman27 wrote:
Just letting any perspective bettors know that I'm certainly not oppossed to match fixing.
Lol, how would you be able to fix a match. There's only one winning bet: Kitaman fails day 1. Kitaman fails day 2... Unless you have some ability to do, you know, good in a game, there's not much you can do to "fix" the game.
=D
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On November 22 2011 03:45 Kavdragon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:45 kitaman27 wrote:
Just letting any perspective bettors know that I'm certainly not oppossed to match fixing. Lol, how would you be able to fix a match. There's only one winning bet: Kitaman fails day 1. Kitaman fails day 2... Unless you have some ability to do, you know, good in a game, there's not much you can do to "fix" the game. =D
Match fixing is easy if you, say, fill more than 50% of the player roster with smurfs.
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put yourself on the anti team and throw games.
#1 method to success 
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On November 21 2011 23:59 Erandorr wrote:
What about the MVP vote. Anyone else like that?
Happy Birthday Radfield!
On November 22 2011 00:10 kitaman27 wrote:
Happy Birthday Radfield!
On November 22 2011 00:15 GMarshal wrote:
Happy Birthday Radfield!
This calls for a celebratory nuke
##Nuke: Radfield
On November 22 2011 00:16 Palmar wrote:
Radfield and RoL share a birthday...
This is super suspicious.
♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫
Thanks Guys!! I love my TL birthday because it's always so unexpected!
...and yes, me and RoL were born on the same day, though 5 years apart
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Happy Birthday, Radfield!!! (And RoL :p)
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On November 21 2011 23:42 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game. XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions.
Really dude?
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On November 22 2011 08:34 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 23:42 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game. XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions. Really dude?
I hope I didn't come across as blaming you for the loss any more than myself. I actually firmly believe that I was the primary reason town lost that game. I was disruptive, annoying and despite my reads being solid I couldn't get town to act on them.
But yes, in general, it's always your own fault. You had great reads that game, better than mine, but that's completely useless if you can't convince town on them. Even if town is retarded, then it's your responsibility to use retard-proof-logic to get them on your side.
I failed miserably at that. You had slightly more success, but ultimately not enough was done, and town lost.
I refer to my earlier rants in the miscellaneous mafia thread (just filter me) if you want perspective on this view of mine.
I disagree with Ace that "sometimes you just can't carry bad towns", because for every retarded town that doesn't accept logic and fails, there's scum somewhere who is pushing terrible logic and convincing town with it. It's similar to poker. You can't apply high level play to a bunch of terrible newbies, you have to adapt.
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On November 22 2011 08:59 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 08:34 Foolishness wrote:On November 21 2011 23:42 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game. XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions. Really dude? I hope I didn't come across as blaming you for the loss any more than myself. I actually firmly believe that I was the primary reason town lost that game. I was disruptive, annoying and despite my reads being solid I couldn't get town to act on them. But yes, in general, it's always your own fault. You had great reads that game, better than mine, but that's completely useless if you can't convince town on them. Even if town is retarded, then it's your responsibility to use retard-proof-logic to get them on your side. I failed miserably at that. You had slightly more success, but ultimately not enough was done, and town lost. I refer to my earlier rants in the miscellaneous mafia thread (just filter me) if you want perspective on this view of mine. I disagree with Ace that "sometimes you just can't carry bad towns", because for every retarded town that doesn't accept logic and fails, there's scum somewhere who is pushing terrible logic and convincing town with it. It's similar to poker. You can't apply high level play to a bunch of terrible newbies, you have to adapt.
There is no such thing as retard-proof-logic. Why do you think they're called retards?
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On November 22 2011 09:50 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 08:59 Palmar wrote:On November 22 2011 08:34 Foolishness wrote:On November 21 2011 23:42 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game. XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions. Really dude? I hope I didn't come across as blaming you for the loss any more than myself. I actually firmly believe that I was the primary reason town lost that game. I was disruptive, annoying and despite my reads being solid I couldn't get town to act on them. But yes, in general, it's always your own fault. You had great reads that game, better than mine, but that's completely useless if you can't convince town on them. Even if town is retarded, then it's your responsibility to use retard-proof-logic to get them on your side. I failed miserably at that. You had slightly more success, but ultimately not enough was done, and town lost. I refer to my earlier rants in the miscellaneous mafia thread (just filter me) if you want perspective on this view of mine. I disagree with Ace that "sometimes you just can't carry bad towns", because for every retarded town that doesn't accept logic and fails, there's scum somewhere who is pushing terrible logic and convincing town with it. It's similar to poker. You can't apply high level play to a bunch of terrible newbies, you have to adapt. There is no such thing as retard-proof-logic. Why do you think they're called retards?
LOL
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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On November 22 2011 08:59 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 08:34 Foolishness wrote:On November 21 2011 23:42 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game. XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions. Really dude? I hope I didn't come across as blaming you for the loss any more than myself. I actually firmly believe that I was the primary reason town lost that game. I was disruptive, annoying and despite my reads being solid I couldn't get town to act on them. But yes, in general, it's always your own fault. You had great reads that game, better than mine, but that's completely useless if you can't convince town on them. Even if town is retarded, then it's your responsibility to use retard-proof-logic to get them on your side. I failed miserably at that. You had slightly more success, but ultimately not enough was done, and town lost. I refer to my earlier rants in the miscellaneous mafia thread (just filter me) if you want perspective on this view of mine. I disagree with Ace that "sometimes you just can't carry bad towns", because for every retarded town that doesn't accept logic and fails, there's scum somewhere who is pushing terrible logic and convincing town with it. It's similar to poker. You can't apply high level play to a bunch of terrible newbies, you have to adapt.
BC's Mafia Resurrection. Town lost with a 2/5 votecheck and a 5/10 votecheck. Why? Inactives. Sometimes you can't carry bad towns.
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I'm on the logo I <3 you so much kav
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On November 22 2011 09:50 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 08:59 Palmar wrote:On November 22 2011 08:34 Foolishness wrote:On November 21 2011 23:42 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game. XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions. Really dude? I hope I didn't come across as blaming you for the loss any more than myself. I actually firmly believe that I was the primary reason town lost that game. I was disruptive, annoying and despite my reads being solid I couldn't get town to act on them. But yes, in general, it's always your own fault. You had great reads that game, better than mine, but that's completely useless if you can't convince town on them. Even if town is retarded, then it's your responsibility to use retard-proof-logic to get them on your side. I failed miserably at that. You had slightly more success, but ultimately not enough was done, and town lost. I refer to my earlier rants in the miscellaneous mafia thread (just filter me) if you want perspective on this view of mine. I disagree with Ace that "sometimes you just can't carry bad towns", because for every retarded town that doesn't accept logic and fails, there's scum somewhere who is pushing terrible logic and convincing town with it. It's similar to poker. You can't apply high level play to a bunch of terrible newbies, you have to adapt. There is no such thing as retard-proof-logic. Why do you think they're called retards?
I used to work with "Retards", mentally retarded people that is. (What's the politically correct English term now? intellectual disability?) I had a summer job for 2 years back when I was 17-18 which involved guiding/motivating/helping these people. They were really nice, but obviously couldn't function normally in society and work.
If I needed the group to do a particular task, I couldn't apply the same logic as I could if I had simply been telling a group of normal people what to do.
You have to bend yourself to your audience. There is always some argument that will work. In mafia terms, maybe the worst town in history will lynch the first player who says the word "scum", but if that happens, you were responsible for recognizing that this would be the standard the town would use, and bait a random mafia into saying the word.
It's always, always, always your fault, and your fault only.
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On November 22 2011 21:14 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 09:50 Incognito wrote:On November 22 2011 08:59 Palmar wrote:On November 22 2011 08:34 Foolishness wrote:On November 21 2011 23:42 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:32 GMarshal wrote:On November 21 2011 23:29 Palmar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:19 GMarshal wrote:
Yeah, I dislike this idea, espcailly since things like wins or losses are pretty much out of a players control. You say that, but I've played 20 games now on TL mafia, and I've lost 6 times. Every single time it's been my own damn fault, and I've had a great deal of influence in every win. (except caller's game). Counter evidence: PTP: 1 Foolishness in XLIV. WaW mafia (everyone who tried to play that seriously ;_;) Cosmic Horror Mafia (peg 2/3 mafia, town goes MIA, scum win) SNMMVI: anyone who tried Sometimes it doesn't matter how well you play, because mafia is a *team* game. XLIV: That was foolishness's own damn fault. I figured out the entire scumteam that game, I pushed mafia day 1. Did that help? No of course not. Foolishness didn't get his read across, which means it's his own damn fault. Stop making up excuses for people not being able to argue their opinions. Really dude? I hope I didn't come across as blaming you for the loss any more than myself. I actually firmly believe that I was the primary reason town lost that game. I was disruptive, annoying and despite my reads being solid I couldn't get town to act on them. But yes, in general, it's always your own fault. You had great reads that game, better than mine, but that's completely useless if you can't convince town on them. Even if town is retarded, then it's your responsibility to use retard-proof-logic to get them on your side. I failed miserably at that. You had slightly more success, but ultimately not enough was done, and town lost. I refer to my earlier rants in the miscellaneous mafia thread (just filter me) if you want perspective on this view of mine. I disagree with Ace that "sometimes you just can't carry bad towns", because for every retarded town that doesn't accept logic and fails, there's scum somewhere who is pushing terrible logic and convincing town with it. It's similar to poker. You can't apply high level play to a bunch of terrible newbies, you have to adapt. There is no such thing as retard-proof-logic. Why do you think they're called retards? I used to work with "Retards", mentally retarded people that is. (What's the politically correct English term now? intellectual disability?) I had a summer job for 2 years back when I was 17-18 which involved guiding/motivating/helping these people. They were really nice, but obviously couldn't function normally in society and work. If I needed the group to do a particular task, I couldn't apply the same logic as I could if I had simply been telling a group of normal people what to do. You have to bend yourself to your audience. There is always some argument that will work. In mafia terms, maybe the worst town in history will lynch the first player who says the word "scum", but if that happens, you were responsible for recognizing that this would be the standard the town would use, and bait a random mafia into saying the word. It's always, always, always your fault, and your fault only.
This is probably the most arrogant thing I have ever read O.o
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If you find that arrogant you're misunderstanding me completely. I apply this to myself just as much as anyone else, which is why I'm very self-critical when I fail. I know we're dealing with a language barrier, but I don't wanna come across rude.
The picture I'm trying to draw is that blaming circumstances is stupid because they're out of your control, the only thing you can control is yourself, so that's where the change has to happen.
You wouldn't use the same attitude and arguments to convince your friends to go out for a couple of beers, and to convince your boss you need a raise, right?
You wouldn't use the same arguments to explain to children why they have to go to sleep, as you'd explain to a top athlete that he needs good sleep to maintain his performance?
It's one of the basics of motivational speaking and argument skills, you have to know your audience.
And I think it applies very well to mafia. Sometimes you get lucky and you end up with a town that will listen to your arguments, because what you're presenting works for them, but sometimes you screw up, and someone other than you leads the lynch.
Food for thought:
I consider myself to have failed terribly if I don't agree with the person who is lynched on day 1. That means someone other than me played better than me, and explained his arguments in a way that better related to town. So that means I lost. And I lose all the time. Someone brought up Cosmic Horror Mafia. I lost an argument there on day 1, and we no-lynched. That was my fault.
GMarshal doesn't agree with me (he played that same game, and shared my day 1 read), he thinks the problem is with the town that failed to see we were right, which is understandable, and I respect the fact that we simply don't agree.
I, however, am of the opinion that I cannot change people, I can only change myself. So I say the responsibility of the failure lies within myself. Even if GM and I were right, and other people were wrong, it was my fault not being able to show them why they weren't right.
Even in games where I have pushed town lynches on day 1. It still bothers me if I can't get it done. It's not about being right, that's the easy part. It's about being able to project your opinion.
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On November 22 2011 23:18 Palmar wrote:
The picture I'm trying to draw is that blaming circumstances is stupid because they're out of your control, the only thing you can control is yourself, so that's where the change has to happen.
Sure. You can raise your individual skill level to dizzying heights but there is only so much impact one person can have on the game. It's not necessarily blaming circumstances but recognizing the reality of the environment you play in. There is no perfect way to convince everyone to agree with you just as there is no sure-fire way to get people that don't play seriously to read the thread. You could become the God of Mafia with complete omnipotence and a near 100% Scum catch rate and you will still lose games because there are too many variables that you have no effect on.
I consider myself to have failed terribly if I don't agree with the person who is lynched on day 1. That means someone other than me played better than me, and explained his arguments in a way that better related to town. So that means I lost. And I lose all the time. Someone brought up Cosmic Horror Mafia. I lost an argument there on day 1, and we no-lynched. That was my fault.
No it doesn't, but you can take that view if it helps you rationalize events. People get lynched for all kinds of reasons on Day 1, and guess what? Some of the time you can't stop it. If everyone in the game was willing to play by listening to arguments and making decisions based on that then maybe I'd say this would be a possibility - but the game doesn't work like that. Policy lynches, meta arguments, grudges, Scum/Town motives and just general chaos can determine a Day 1 lynch just as easily as the best persuasive arguments. You could say you failed if you let some of these things go by and decide the lynch but then you might as well quit playing because a lot of lynches early in the game will be out of your hands.
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On November 22 2011 23:18 Palmar wrote:
If you find that arrogant you're misunderstanding me completely. I apply this to myself just as much as anyone else, which is why I'm very self-critical when I fail. I know we're dealing with a language barrier, but I don't wanna come across rude.
The picture I'm trying to draw is that blaming circumstances is stupid because they're out of your control, the only thing you can control is yourself, so that's where the change has to happen.
You wouldn't use the same attitude and arguments to convince your friends to go out for a couple of beers, and to convince your boss you need a raise, right?
You wouldn't use the same arguments to explain to children why they have to go to sleep, as you'd explain to a top athlete that he needs good sleep to maintain his performance?
It's one of the basics of motivational speaking and argument skills, you have to know your audience.
And I think it applies very well to mafia. Sometimes you get lucky and you end up with a town that will listen to your arguments, because what you're presenting works for them, but sometimes you screw up, and someone other than you leads the lynch.
Food for thought:
I consider myself to have failed terribly if I don't agree with the person who is lynched on day 1. That means someone other than me played better than me, and explained his arguments in a way that better related to town. So that means I lost. And I lose all the time. Someone brought up Cosmic Horror Mafia. I lost an argument there on day 1, and we no-lynched. That was my fault.
GMarshal doesn't agree with me (he played that same game, and shared my day 1 read), he thinks the problem is with the town that failed to see we were right, which is understandable, and I respect the fact that we simply don't agree.
I, however, am of the opinion that I cannot change people, I can only change myself. So I say the responsibility of the failure lies within myself. Even if GM and I were right, and other people were wrong, it was my fault not being able to show them why they weren't right.
Even in games where I have pushed town lynches on day 1. It still bothers me if I can't get it done. It's not about being right, that's the easy part. It's about being able to project your opinion.
Nope, I understood you just fine ^.^
Arrogant is probably a harsh word, I would say ultra competitive may be better ?
Lets take a game of basketball and you are the star of your team. You yourself play extremely well, but since your team consists of 14 year old 5 foot tall overweight children, you still lose. If I apply your logic, then you would still blame yourself for the loss , that you only scored 80 points instead of the 140 necessairy , while getting 20 blocks instead of 5 and 40 instead of 7 steals that game (God that fucking lockout ). You can't really think that way without being extremely convinced in your own abilities and talent , so actually I think arrogant covers it just fine :D
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On November 22 2011 23:31 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 23:18 Palmar wrote:
The picture I'm trying to draw is that blaming circumstances is stupid because they're out of your control, the only thing you can control is yourself, so that's where the change has to happen.
Sure. You can raise your individual skill level to dizzying heights but there is only so much impact one person can have on the game. It's not necessarily blaming circumstances but recognizing the reality of the environment you play in. There is no perfect way to convince everyone to agree with you just as there is no sure-fire way to get people that don't play seriously to read the thread. You could become the God of Mafia with complete omnipotence and a near 100% Scum catch rate and you will still lose games because there are too many variables that you have no effect on. Show nested quote +
I consider myself to have failed terribly if I don't agree with the person who is lynched on day 1. That means someone other than me played better than me, and explained his arguments in a way that better related to town. So that means I lost. And I lose all the time. Someone brought up Cosmic Horror Mafia. I lost an argument there on day 1, and we no-lynched. That was my fault.
No it doesn't, but you can take that view if it helps you rationalize events. People get lynched for all kinds of reasons on Day 1, and guess what? Some of the time you can't stop it. If everyone in the game was willing to play by listening to arguments and making decisions based on that then maybe I'd say this would be a possibility - but the game doesn't work like that. Policy lynches, meta arguments, grudges, Scum/Town motives and just general chaos can determine a Day 1 lynch just as easily as the best persuasive arguments. You could say you failed if you let some of these things go by and decide the lynch but then you might as well quit playing because a lot of lynches early in the game will be out of your hands.
I do not strive to be perfect, I strive to be better. I am fully aware I will never have a perfect record, but that's no reason to dismiss the failure as something that cannot be improved upon. Only by holding yourself to the highest standard can you become better.
Every pro-starcraft player aspires to win every game, and so do I aspire to win every argument and every town over. I am far from reaching that goal, but that doesn't mean I should quit.
I am aware it's far-fetched to think I can do what I want to do, but just as the best starcraft players only have 70%-ish winrate, yet they want to win every game, they don't quit because they know the goal is almost unattainable. There is no point where I will stop trying to improve.
You are essentially correct that expecting a 100% success rate is wildly optimistic, if not impossible, but does that mean I should just throw a bad lynch away as a "stupid town" or should I analyse my own play and try to improve?
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Starcraft is an individual sport where only being in control of yourself correlates highly to winning. The same doesn't apply to Mafia, especially with subjective measures such as winning an argument. You could win every argument in the game and people still won't vote the way you want them to.
You shouldn't throw away every bad lynch as stupid Town but you should recognize when you've done all you can to make the right play. You're telling this to someone who has played the most games with bad casts. I've tried time and time again to show stupid Towns the basis behind something only for them to tune it out and do their own thing (usually resulting in a loss). Get better as much as you please but realize short of mind control you won't be able to control others' actions in a team game.
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I'm learning mind control then.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Just don't try to mind control a bus driver that buses himself with another player and expect it to turn out well.
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On November 23 2011 00:00 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 23:18 Palmar wrote:
If you find that arrogant you're misunderstanding me completely. I apply this to myself just as much as anyone else, which is why I'm very self-critical when I fail. I know we're dealing with a language barrier, but I don't wanna come across rude.
The picture I'm trying to draw is that blaming circumstances is stupid because they're out of your control, the only thing you can control is yourself, so that's where the change has to happen.
You wouldn't use the same attitude and arguments to convince your friends to go out for a couple of beers, and to convince your boss you need a raise, right?
You wouldn't use the same arguments to explain to children why they have to go to sleep, as you'd explain to a top athlete that he needs good sleep to maintain his performance?
It's one of the basics of motivational speaking and argument skills, you have to know your audience.
And I think it applies very well to mafia. Sometimes you get lucky and you end up with a town that will listen to your arguments, because what you're presenting works for them, but sometimes you screw up, and someone other than you leads the lynch.
Food for thought:
I consider myself to have failed terribly if I don't agree with the person who is lynched on day 1. That means someone other than me played better than me, and explained his arguments in a way that better related to town. So that means I lost. And I lose all the time. Someone brought up Cosmic Horror Mafia. I lost an argument there on day 1, and we no-lynched. That was my fault.
GMarshal doesn't agree with me (he played that same game, and shared my day 1 read), he thinks the problem is with the town that failed to see we were right, which is understandable, and I respect the fact that we simply don't agree.
I, however, am of the opinion that I cannot change people, I can only change myself. So I say the responsibility of the failure lies within myself. Even if GM and I were right, and other people were wrong, it was my fault not being able to show them why they weren't right.
Even in games where I have pushed town lynches on day 1. It still bothers me if I can't get it done. It's not about being right, that's the easy part. It's about being able to project your opinion. Nope, I understood you just fine ^.^ Arrogant is probably a harsh word, I would say ultra competitive may be better ? Lets take a game of basketball and you are the star of your team. You yourself play extremely well, but since your team consists of 14 year old 5 foot tall overweight children, you still lose. If I apply your logic, then you would still blame yourself for the loss , that you only scored 80 points instead of the 140 necessairy , while getting 20 blocks instead of 5 and 40 instead of 7 steals that game (God that fucking lockout ). You can't really think that way without being extremely convinced in your own abilities and talent , so actually I think arrogant covers it just fine :D
Assuming the only variable that's within my control is my own play, then yes, I would blame myself for the loss. I have been assigned exactly one body and half a brain to go with it. That's all I can use to influence the world around me. Sometimes the situation has very little chances of succeeding, but that doesn't mean I'll stop trying.
I always thought arrogant implied the feeling of superiority towards others. I recognize that there are people who are better than me, and I learn from them. I also recognize there are people who are worse than me, and I try to help them.
I am super competitive, a sore loser, very confident yet self-critical. If that makes me arrogant, then I'll live with that.
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Palmar I am very curious and you must have put a lot of thought into that, why do you think that a lot of towns don't follow you even if you present your arguments in a well thought out way?
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Because in Mafia, everyone has to be critical of what is said. Scum can still present their arguments in a well thought out way.
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You can waste a lot of energy trying to run into a brick wall. Pick your battles. You can't win all of them.
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I'm more or less with Palmar on this one.
First off, sure, there will come times when playing the perfect game will still not net you a win. Yeah, you're not at fault for the entirety of the loss, but that doesn't mean you can't blame yourself for the entirety of the loss.
If you lose a game, and blame another player for it, you have no reason to improve. There is nothing gained by blaming another player for losing the game, and a ton to be gained by blaming your self. You will never play the perfect game. You will always make mistakes, you will always do stupid things (unless you are ace). This means that you will never run out of room for improvement.
So from the standpoint of someone who wants to improve, why would you ever blame someone else for the loss of a game, when you could better your self as a player by blaming yourself for it? Take that to an extreme, and you can blame yourself for the entirety of the loss, and maximize the scope of what you intend to improve on.
I hold to a similar philosophy in general, though I phrase it differently: Nothing is perfect, but eventually it becomes unprofitable to improve them. This means that I'm never satisfied with anything I do, because I KNOW that I could have done it better.
And no, that's not arrogance. Arrogance is attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner. Palmar's not overbearing in that regard. Quite the opposite. It's simply a different way of viewing humans: We all have nearly unlimited potential, and almost anything is possible. How much of the potential we achieve is how Palmar (and to some extent, I), view ourselves.
Like I said earlier, it's never profitable to think that something is perfect, because then there is no reason to improve.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On November 23 2011 00:08 Ace wrote:
Starcraft is an individual sport where only being in control of yourself correlates highly to winning. The same doesn't apply to Mafia...
As Ace said, mafia is not an individual game. It is a team game. It so happens that some or all of the players have incomplete information about who is on their team, but it is still a team game. Sure, there are losses in which primarily one individual is at fault (a good example of this would be Dota/LoL/HoN), but blaming yourself everytime for every loss will just lead you down a road where your ability will plateau.
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On November 23 2011 06:04 Foolishness wrote:
blaming yourself everytime for every loss will just lead you down a road where your ability will plateau.
I think that this is dependent on the way that you blame yourself, and what you do in response to feeling responsible for something.
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I'm pretty sure we had this debate before, with exact same players nontheless. :p
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Its still pretty entertaining from the outside :D
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I think the best attitude isn't to blame people or groups of people for losses, but rather to examine the play and see what could have been done differently or better. Unless you're living until the end of every single game, there's a cut-off point for where you can project your own influence on the game. So, look at the period of the game you had an influence on, and examine how it played out, and what you could have done to make it play out differently (if it didn't go as you wanted it).
Don't blame yourself or others for losses (unless you did something really dumb that literally lost town the game like shooting 5 confirmed town players at once when there was one scum left and 6 town, including yourself.), but rather look at how you played, and then determine how you could have played better. Win or lose, I find this is a good way to actually approach the game with the aim to improve. Blaming yourself or others for losses doesn't really mean anything, unless you actually look at what you did in the game and how it played out.
At least, that's how I see it, and that's the same sort of mind-set and process I apply to any game. Always look for ways to play better, no matter the results.
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I'm with Palmar on this one.
And I think that working out what was your fault and could have been better is placing the blame on yourself, so Wiggles is essentially agreeing too.
This betting, perhaps identify the scum team, extra points for having it right earlier, can change it daily, if you change it from right you get less etc.
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On November 23 2011 10:16 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
I'm with Palmar on this one.
And I think that working out what was your fault and could have been better is placing the blame on yourself, so Wiggles is essentially agreeing too.
This betting, perhaps identify the scum team, extra points for having it right earlier, can change it daily, if you change it from right you get less etc.
It's not really working out what was your fault, because I'm saying to do this even if you win. It doesn't matter whose fault something is, because even if someone else threw the entire game, you can still look at your own play and figure out what you can do better next time, regardless.
There is no blame with what I'm saying, just looking at your own play and seeing what you can do to improve it, win or lose. There's no guilt involved.
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On November 23 2011 10:32 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
It's not really working out what was your fault, because I'm saying to do this even if you win. It doesn't matter whose fault something is, because even if someone else threw the entire game, you can still look at your own play and figure out what you can do better next time, regardless.
Exactly. It's not about winning, it's about getting better. I'm at fault when I win, and when I lose.
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EPT
