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On December 01 2011 05:51 chaoser wrote:
np palmar, everyone did badly. Or else town wouldn't have lost. That's something that I'm sure everyone can admit. But when WBG goes around saying "omg omg you're all so bad! that's why I made bad reads/calls/votes!" and indirectly implies that he was in no way a part of that failure, or that his bad play is somehow excused is when I call bullshit on that.
of course I was part of the failure. I had bad reads too.
However, how the hell are you going to make correct reads if scum aren't the most anti-town players?
You can't seriously expect anyone to be able to make correct reads when people are PURPOSELY being hard to read.
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normally, flavor text is just that...flavor.
I didn't realize there would be game-relevant clues in the flavor so I didn't bother looking too deeply into it.
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Multi-lynch doesn't function the same way a vig does. In fact, it's much harder to get multi-lynch to work the way you want it to than a vig.
Lynch methods are highly manipulable by scum. No offense to the scumteam, but with this town if any of you actually played aggressive scum you would've managed to lynch 3-4 townies everyday and would've been able to win even faster.
Multilynch is good if the town is competent. A vig can compensate for chaos and stupid townies. Multilynch can't. In fact, the dumber the town, the more mafia-favored multilynch is.
EDIT: I would've loved this setup as scum.
However it would've felt unfair lol.
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it's true though, all of us townies played incredibly badly.
There's nothing more to say other than we were incompetent.
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On December 01 2011 12:35 Zona wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:29 wherebugsgo wrote:
Multilynch is good if the town is competent. A vig can compensate for chaos and stupid townies. You missed something. A smart vig can compensate... But if you have a game full of stupid townies like the scenario you describe, it's just as probable, if not moreso, that a stupid townie snags the vig role, and that helps how? Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:29 wherebugsgo wrote:
Multilynch can't. In fact, the dumber the town, the more mafia-favored multilynch is. Indeed, you are correct. The dumber the town, the more mafia-favored ANY normal mechanic is. Unless you start adding retarded anti-snowball or similar mechanics. Okay, you know what? I get it. I shouldn't host game setups which are designed for competent players here.
No, even a dumb vig can compensate.
If smart players direct a bad player who lands a vig role he can still be useful.
I've played in a couple games, in fact, in which not the greatest player got the vig role but was still useful because he listened to the proper townies.
like, directing a vig as scum is much harder than directing a lynch. It sounds easier, since you only have to convince one person, but that person is hidden. With a lynch you can direct behind the scenes without ever directly saying what you want the lynch to be.
Then later you can punish those responsible for bad lynches with further bad lynches.
Vigilantes are kinda dumb-proof in the sense that you can only make one bad shot.
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no, not always.
I'm not going to name names, cause that would be mean.
In order to lead a lynch you have to convince an entire flock. In order to convince a vig you just have to convince one person.
It's actually harder as scum to do the latter because it's generally extremely hard to convince a vig to shoot someone without directly stating it.
On the other hand, scum can manipulate lynches in all sorts of ways.
EDIT:
I should clarify that I have nothing against multi-lynch. I actually think it's really cool and is an awesome dynamic to a game, with one caveat: everyone who signs up for the game actually plays the game.
Inactive people, trolls, and people who otherwise have very little interest in playing..well kinda make multilynch frustrating to deal with.
It's much easier to seed chaos and destruction in a thread where everyone has 3 votes than in one where everyone only has 1. Without a cohesive backbone town falls apart really easily.
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I'm not blaming it.
I think it's the townies' fault lol
although balance IS a concern in Mafia games. It's easier to tell with minis whether a game is balanced. It's much harder to tell if a larger game is properly balanced since it's really hard to run games with those setups enough times
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On December 01 2011 13:21 xsksc wrote:I'm not trying to say I know more about balanced setups than you do wbg, I know I don't  . What I'm trying to say is unless everyone plays 100% correctly and doesn't make mistakes, balance should be pretty much irrelevant to a win/loss (obviously there's gonna be exceptions for extreme cases.) In this game for example, if me and the other inexperienced/bad/trolling townies had just played better and posted more, we would have had a much better chance at winning. It wouldn't have mattered if we didn't have vigs or if Grey's role was OP, we just needed to simply play better.
right, I agree with you.
My only point about the vigilantes is that multi lynch and vigilantes function differently.
It primarily depends on how you play the game, but each one gives different benefits to different factions depending on the players.
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On December 01 2011 13:29 Zona wrote:
Yes, of course vigilantes and multi-lynch aren't identical. But the idea that the multi-lynch mechanic by itself is unfavorable to the town is entirely wrong.
It is incredibly important to have a balanced setup if players are to play seriously. It's disheartening to put an immense effort into a game only to discover later on that the odds were unfairly stacked against you. (Or that you won with the help of a very favorable setup.)
That's why I am taking the effort now to dispel incorrect accusations of imbalance about this setup, since I want players to play seriously in my future games. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered in participating in such a debate.
I think Multi-lynch is more unfavorable to a bad town than vigilantes are.
Yeah, the solution obviously is not to play badly, but I think the point has been made.
TL towns just need to step it up. (scum too, though I think town play needs to improve first before there's any reason for scum to bother)
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EPT
