|
literally, town's win came down to a single check. That's entirely luck.
|
On November 10 2011 07:18 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +Very rarely do scum roleclaims actually gain scum anything. Sometimes you see them do something but more often than not mafia only really gain from counterclaiming. Cough cough...
You claimed in XLIV and it really didn't gain you anything. Six (!!) modkills is what won you guys that game.
|
On November 10 2011 07:19 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I couldn't bus Kurumi when he and RoL both came in at extremely odd times to soft defend us.
I even repeatedly sent Kurumi PMs telling him what I wanted him to do and every single time I'd look in the thread and there'd be this random single post that would make me and Radfield look like shit.
And I disagree with you completely on the day 3 business. I really don't think I got lynched on day 3 for any fault of my own. That lynch literally could've swung either way, and all the facts were on my side.
I know for a fact I would've hated to be in GM's or super's shoes as town. We were in a good spot. Town just flipped a coin and it landed correctly.
Also follow the cop IS an issue with the parity. All they need to do is check people who don't die and they have more than enough information on day 3. We couldn't do anything about a day 1 claim. That isn't our fault at all. oh well that's not true. we established ourselves much better as town than you did. And I still think, that my plan to vote Kuru and bind you two together was good.
I was actually thinking of doing that myself.
I just figured that holding off the vote would make me look more town than you.
Radfield I think thought differently than me on that but he was at work.
I could've also just risked not posting while I saw it because I saw it on my phone and kinda panicked. Had I just been gone I think maybe I would've survived? Who knows.
|
On November 10 2011 07:20 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I couldn't bus Kurumi when he and RoL both came in at extremely odd times to soft defend us.
I even repeatedly sent Kurumi PMs telling him what I wanted him to do and every single time I'd look in the thread and there'd be this random single post that would make me and Radfield look like shit.
And I disagree with you completely on the day 3 business. I really don't think I got lynched on day 3 for any fault of my own. That lynch literally could've swung either way, and all the facts were on my side.
I know for a fact I would've hated to be in GM's or super's shoes as town. We were in a good spot. Town just flipped a coin and it landed correctly.
Also follow the cop IS an issue with the parity. All they need to do is check people who don't die and they have more than enough information on day 3. We couldn't do anything about a day 1 claim. That isn't our fault at all. I completely agree that you didn't HAVE to bus, but it was the safest way to win. But yes, the problem lay in you guys already having screwed up that opportunity, leaving it down to a decision on where RedFF and Kita would stand, which was unfortunately unfavorable to you. And of course you got lynched by your own fault, you have to remember, they only know either you guys or S&G are scum, you lost that argument to supersoft and greymist because they played well enough. It basically came down to a simple duel between S&G and Chezinu, and S&G came out on top this time.
lol I really do disagree with this, but I'm not going to argue about it anymore because I know I'm more than a little mad right now.
This game was extremely frustrating to me because I knew as soon as kita+red claimed on day 1 that it was going to be incredibly hard to win. I did my best, and we lost. Oh well.
|
On November 10 2011 07:24 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:18 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:18 chaoser wrote:Very rarely do scum roleclaims actually gain scum anything. Sometimes you see them do something but more often than not mafia only really gain from counterclaiming. Cough cough... You claimed in XLIV and it really didn't gain you anything. Six (!!) modkills is what won you guys that game. I've fake claimed previously as mafia to great effect before you came
that's fine, but by all accounts if the parity cop claims on day 1, then how is a fake claim going to help scum?
|
On November 10 2011 07:28 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:22 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:20 Palmar wrote:On November 10 2011 07:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I couldn't bus Kurumi when he and RoL both came in at extremely odd times to soft defend us.
I even repeatedly sent Kurumi PMs telling him what I wanted him to do and every single time I'd look in the thread and there'd be this random single post that would make me and Radfield look like shit.
And I disagree with you completely on the day 3 business. I really don't think I got lynched on day 3 for any fault of my own. That lynch literally could've swung either way, and all the facts were on my side.
I know for a fact I would've hated to be in GM's or super's shoes as town. We were in a good spot. Town just flipped a coin and it landed correctly.
Also follow the cop IS an issue with the parity. All they need to do is check people who don't die and they have more than enough information on day 3. We couldn't do anything about a day 1 claim. That isn't our fault at all. I completely agree that you didn't HAVE to bus, but it was the safest way to win. But yes, the problem lay in you guys already having screwed up that opportunity, leaving it down to a decision on where RedFF and Kita would stand, which was unfortunately unfavorable to you. And of course you got lynched by your own fault, you have to remember, they only know either you guys or S&G are scum, you lost that argument to supersoft and greymist because they played well enough. It basically came down to a simple duel between S&G and Chezinu, and S&G came out on top this time. lol I really do disagree with this, but I'm not going to argue about it anymore because I know I'm more than a little mad right now. This game was extremely frustrating to me because I knew as soon as kita+red claimed on day 1 that it was going to be incredibly hard to win. I did my best, and we lost. Oh well. You did your best, the rest of your team didn't. You cannot argue with what's a fact. It really did come down to a 1v1 argument where both of you raced to convince the deciding team you were town, a race you lost. You made a few mistakes, but overall you played a really solid mafia game. The problem lies in your team. The fact you defended Kurumi and RoL multiple times throughout the game because they simply couldn't be arsed looking innocent, the fact that the Radfield side of your team who could've complemented your aggressive style with big solid posts very well was for the most part missing.... Those were the things that lost the game. There is no such thing as winning a game as mafia alone, you have to do it as a team because you never know when shit hits the fan. I found this out in personality where I was happily leading town until a random watcher found me out and suddenly the rest of the team had to scramble. The setup may have been slightly town favoured, after a very successful day1/night1 cycle, mafia was in prime position to win, all they had to do was to establish themselves as town and distance, because the parity cop could NEVER have more than one check because you found the doctor.
Right, but one check is all the PC needed in a day 3 situation when there are four other players left.
Think about it.
If the PC gets one confirmed townie, then the PC just needs to muddy the check and then figure out which one is the last townie.
If the PC gets two people as the same parity in the endgame situation, game just proceeds with preceding analysis.
The only situation in which the PC has less than a 50% chance to score scum on day 3 is if both the checks died.
No matter how we could've played it, town would've had at least a 50% chance to score scum on day 3. All you need is one shred of analysis and a bunch of dumb luck and you win the game right there.
EDIT: Plus yeah, one of us getting lynched normally wouldn't end the game but with 3 afk partners=lol
|
On November 10 2011 07:36 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:34 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:28 Palmar wrote:On November 10 2011 07:22 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:20 Palmar wrote:On November 10 2011 07:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I couldn't bus Kurumi when he and RoL both came in at extremely odd times to soft defend us.
I even repeatedly sent Kurumi PMs telling him what I wanted him to do and every single time I'd look in the thread and there'd be this random single post that would make me and Radfield look like shit.
And I disagree with you completely on the day 3 business. I really don't think I got lynched on day 3 for any fault of my own. That lynch literally could've swung either way, and all the facts were on my side.
I know for a fact I would've hated to be in GM's or super's shoes as town. We were in a good spot. Town just flipped a coin and it landed correctly.
Also follow the cop IS an issue with the parity. All they need to do is check people who don't die and they have more than enough information on day 3. We couldn't do anything about a day 1 claim. That isn't our fault at all. I completely agree that you didn't HAVE to bus, but it was the safest way to win. But yes, the problem lay in you guys already having screwed up that opportunity, leaving it down to a decision on where RedFF and Kita would stand, which was unfortunately unfavorable to you. And of course you got lynched by your own fault, you have to remember, they only know either you guys or S&G are scum, you lost that argument to supersoft and greymist because they played well enough. It basically came down to a simple duel between S&G and Chezinu, and S&G came out on top this time. lol I really do disagree with this, but I'm not going to argue about it anymore because I know I'm more than a little mad right now. This game was extremely frustrating to me because I knew as soon as kita+red claimed on day 1 that it was going to be incredibly hard to win. I did my best, and we lost. Oh well. You did your best, the rest of your team didn't. You cannot argue with what's a fact. It really did come down to a 1v1 argument where both of you raced to convince the deciding team you were town, a race you lost. You made a few mistakes, but overall you played a really solid mafia game. The problem lies in your team. The fact you defended Kurumi and RoL multiple times throughout the game because they simply couldn't be arsed looking innocent, the fact that the Radfield side of your team who could've complemented your aggressive style with big solid posts very well was for the most part missing.... Those were the things that lost the game. There is no such thing as winning a game as mafia alone, you have to do it as a team because you never know when shit hits the fan. I found this out in personality where I was happily leading town until a random watcher found me out and suddenly the rest of the team had to scramble. The setup may have been slightly town favoured, after a very successful day1/night1 cycle, mafia was in prime position to win, all they had to do was to establish themselves as town and distance, because the parity cop could NEVER have more than one check because you found the doctor. Right, but one check is all the PC needed in a day 3 situation when there are four other players left. Think about it. If the PC gets one confirmed townie, then the PC just needs to muddy the check and then figure out which one is the last townie. If the PC gets two people as the same parity in the endgame situation, game just proceeds with preceding analysis. The only situation in which the PC has less than a 50% chance to score scum on day 3 is if both the checks died. No matter how we could've played it, town would've had at least a 50% chance to score scum on day 3. All you need is one shred of analysis and a bunch of dumb luck and you win the game right there. EDIT: Plus yeah, one of us getting lynched normally wouldn't end the game but with 3 afk partners=lol But on day3 with 3 town 2 scum you have bassically a 50% chance to hit scum anyway, regardless of the settup
No you don't, mathematically that makes no sense.
In any other setup there isn't a confirmed townie still living on day 3, therefore the pure chance is 40% to hit scum.
Plus, the check gives more information than just the parity difference. It also gives a bunch of other information that can be used to determine connections.
Do none of you remember that we tried killing GM and then bussing nipple? The parity check gave kita+red the information that GM and nipple were opposite parities.
At that point we were basically fucked.
|
On November 10 2011 07:41 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:34 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:28 Palmar wrote:On November 10 2011 07:22 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:20 Palmar wrote:On November 10 2011 07:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I couldn't bus Kurumi when he and RoL both came in at extremely odd times to soft defend us.
I even repeatedly sent Kurumi PMs telling him what I wanted him to do and every single time I'd look in the thread and there'd be this random single post that would make me and Radfield look like shit.
And I disagree with you completely on the day 3 business. I really don't think I got lynched on day 3 for any fault of my own. That lynch literally could've swung either way, and all the facts were on my side.
I know for a fact I would've hated to be in GM's or super's shoes as town. We were in a good spot. Town just flipped a coin and it landed correctly.
Also follow the cop IS an issue with the parity. All they need to do is check people who don't die and they have more than enough information on day 3. We couldn't do anything about a day 1 claim. That isn't our fault at all. I completely agree that you didn't HAVE to bus, but it was the safest way to win. But yes, the problem lay in you guys already having screwed up that opportunity, leaving it down to a decision on where RedFF and Kita would stand, which was unfortunately unfavorable to you. And of course you got lynched by your own fault, you have to remember, they only know either you guys or S&G are scum, you lost that argument to supersoft and greymist because they played well enough. It basically came down to a simple duel between S&G and Chezinu, and S&G came out on top this time. lol I really do disagree with this, but I'm not going to argue about it anymore because I know I'm more than a little mad right now. This game was extremely frustrating to me because I knew as soon as kita+red claimed on day 1 that it was going to be incredibly hard to win. I did my best, and we lost. Oh well. You did your best, the rest of your team didn't. You cannot argue with what's a fact. It really did come down to a 1v1 argument where both of you raced to convince the deciding team you were town, a race you lost. You made a few mistakes, but overall you played a really solid mafia game. The problem lies in your team. The fact you defended Kurumi and RoL multiple times throughout the game because they simply couldn't be arsed looking innocent, the fact that the Radfield side of your team who could've complemented your aggressive style with big solid posts very well was for the most part missing.... Those were the things that lost the game. There is no such thing as winning a game as mafia alone, you have to do it as a team because you never know when shit hits the fan. I found this out in personality where I was happily leading town until a random watcher found me out and suddenly the rest of the team had to scramble. The setup may have been slightly town favoured, after a very successful day1/night1 cycle, mafia was in prime position to win, all they had to do was to establish themselves as town and distance, because the parity cop could NEVER have more than one check because you found the doctor. Right, but one check is all the PC needed in a day 3 situation when there are four other players left. Think about it. If the PC gets one confirmed townie, then the PC just needs to muddy the check and then figure out which one is the last townie. If the PC gets two people as the same parity in the endgame situation, game just proceeds with preceding analysis. The only situation in which the PC has less than a 50% chance to score scum on day 3 is if both the checks died. No matter how we could've played it, town would've had at least a 50% chance to score scum on day 3. All you need is one shred of analysis and a bunch of dumb luck and you win the game right there. Town had exactly 50% chance of killing scum on day 3. last time I checked 50/50 is quite balanced isn't it? And technically it's not that bad if scum dies on day 3, you just shoot parity cop during the night, and you have another 50/50 shot to win the game. Because of your good first 2 days, you guys were set up to have 2x 50/50 chance of winning the game. That's odds anyone should take. It's always gonna come down to it in mafia, it's what the game is about, having to convince people in a 1v1 situation. This time it was S&G vs Chezinu, each team has equal chances of convincing red/kita they're town. If Chezinu wins it ends the game, but this time S&G won the duel. But Nipple didn't have to give up. Shoot, Red21, and then it's another 50/50 fight, where Nipple and GM fight to convince S&G they're scum. At this point it's perfectly balanced, in my opinion. The problem is you had to go too much out of your way earlier in the game due to lazy play by the rest of the scum, so you were already at a disadvantage.
50/50 is incredibly good chances for town when they've mislynched for two days straight.
EDIT:
I mean really, put it in perspective. They mislynch twice and then suddenly they're actually FAVORED to kill scum.
Without the check it's still 50/50, but that's the cap. With the check it's higher than that because the check inherently gives way more information.
EDIT: I should say, without the check but with a confirmed townie.
The fact that the townie is confirmed PLUS has extra information is what kills it.
|
On November 10 2011 07:47 redFF wrote:
we were never confirmed town btw, it could have been a 1 medic setup.
no but we couldn't shoot you.
|
On November 10 2011 07:51 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:46 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:41 Palmar wrote:On November 10 2011 07:34 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:28 Palmar wrote:On November 10 2011 07:22 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:20 Palmar wrote:On November 10 2011 07:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I couldn't bus Kurumi when he and RoL both came in at extremely odd times to soft defend us.
I even repeatedly sent Kurumi PMs telling him what I wanted him to do and every single time I'd look in the thread and there'd be this random single post that would make me and Radfield look like shit.
And I disagree with you completely on the day 3 business. I really don't think I got lynched on day 3 for any fault of my own. That lynch literally could've swung either way, and all the facts were on my side.
I know for a fact I would've hated to be in GM's or super's shoes as town. We were in a good spot. Town just flipped a coin and it landed correctly.
Also follow the cop IS an issue with the parity. All they need to do is check people who don't die and they have more than enough information on day 3. We couldn't do anything about a day 1 claim. That isn't our fault at all. I completely agree that you didn't HAVE to bus, but it was the safest way to win. But yes, the problem lay in you guys already having screwed up that opportunity, leaving it down to a decision on where RedFF and Kita would stand, which was unfortunately unfavorable to you. And of course you got lynched by your own fault, you have to remember, they only know either you guys or S&G are scum, you lost that argument to supersoft and greymist because they played well enough. It basically came down to a simple duel between S&G and Chezinu, and S&G came out on top this time. lol I really do disagree with this, but I'm not going to argue about it anymore because I know I'm more than a little mad right now. This game was extremely frustrating to me because I knew as soon as kita+red claimed on day 1 that it was going to be incredibly hard to win. I did my best, and we lost. Oh well. You did your best, the rest of your team didn't. You cannot argue with what's a fact. It really did come down to a 1v1 argument where both of you raced to convince the deciding team you were town, a race you lost. You made a few mistakes, but overall you played a really solid mafia game. The problem lies in your team. The fact you defended Kurumi and RoL multiple times throughout the game because they simply couldn't be arsed looking innocent, the fact that the Radfield side of your team who could've complemented your aggressive style with big solid posts very well was for the most part missing.... Those were the things that lost the game. There is no such thing as winning a game as mafia alone, you have to do it as a team because you never know when shit hits the fan. I found this out in personality where I was happily leading town until a random watcher found me out and suddenly the rest of the team had to scramble. The setup may have been slightly town favoured, after a very successful day1/night1 cycle, mafia was in prime position to win, all they had to do was to establish themselves as town and distance, because the parity cop could NEVER have more than one check because you found the doctor. Right, but one check is all the PC needed in a day 3 situation when there are four other players left. Think about it. If the PC gets one confirmed townie, then the PC just needs to muddy the check and then figure out which one is the last townie. If the PC gets two people as the same parity in the endgame situation, game just proceeds with preceding analysis. The only situation in which the PC has less than a 50% chance to score scum on day 3 is if both the checks died. No matter how we could've played it, town would've had at least a 50% chance to score scum on day 3. All you need is one shred of analysis and a bunch of dumb luck and you win the game right there. Town had exactly 50% chance of killing scum on day 3. last time I checked 50/50 is quite balanced isn't it? And technically it's not that bad if scum dies on day 3, you just shoot parity cop during the night, and you have another 50/50 shot to win the game. Because of your good first 2 days, you guys were set up to have 2x 50/50 chance of winning the game. That's odds anyone should take. It's always gonna come down to it in mafia, it's what the game is about, having to convince people in a 1v1 situation. This time it was S&G vs Chezinu, each team has equal chances of convincing red/kita they're town. If Chezinu wins it ends the game, but this time S&G won the duel. But Nipple didn't have to give up. Shoot, Red21, and then it's another 50/50 fight, where Nipple and GM fight to convince S&G they're scum. At this point it's perfectly balanced, in my opinion. The problem is you had to go too much out of your way earlier in the game due to lazy play by the rest of the scum, so you were already at a disadvantage. 50/50 is incredibly good chances for town when they've mislynched for two days straight. EDIT: I mean really, put it in perspective. They mislynch twice and then suddenly they're actually FAVORED to kill scum. Without the check it's still 50/50, but that's the cap. With the check it's higher than that because the check inherently gives way more information. thats something you really can't fix though. if we assume a settup with 8 town and 2 scum, the town has a 20% chance to random a scum. As they fail, the scum and town numbers reach an equillibrium, bringing it close to 50%. Town doesnt truely have a favored odds to lynch scum, because if it ever reaches exactly 50% the game is over because scum can control and neutralize the lynch.
The only situation in which town has a 50/50 chance of lynching scum is in which at least one townie is confirmed. In every other situation, (just name one LYLO situation) the chance is lower than 50%. Confirmed townie+check is higher than 50% inherently because the confirmed townie alone gives the 50% chance. The check just adds to that.
Therefore, you CAN fix it, by punishing roleclaimers.
Mafia had no way to punish a PC claimer in this game. It was either gamble to shoot the cop (which would've been the wrong thing to do in this setup) or sacrifice a scum member by counterclaiming and hope your buddy wins in the endgame. Those were our two options on day 1.
When that didn't work our option of bussing opened up on day 3. We tried that but then the check made it impossible. It pigeonholed us. The check basically FORCED us to talk about one thing and one thing only.
That screwed us in the end because Kurumi randomly came in and started defending us when he could've stayed out of the thread and it would've made no difference.
On November 10 2011 07:52 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:46 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:41 Palmar wrote:On November 10 2011 07:34 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:28 Palmar wrote:On November 10 2011 07:22 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:20 Palmar wrote:On November 10 2011 07:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I couldn't bus Kurumi when he and RoL both came in at extremely odd times to soft defend us.
I even repeatedly sent Kurumi PMs telling him what I wanted him to do and every single time I'd look in the thread and there'd be this random single post that would make me and Radfield look like shit.
And I disagree with you completely on the day 3 business. I really don't think I got lynched on day 3 for any fault of my own. That lynch literally could've swung either way, and all the facts were on my side.
I know for a fact I would've hated to be in GM's or super's shoes as town. We were in a good spot. Town just flipped a coin and it landed correctly.
Also follow the cop IS an issue with the parity. All they need to do is check people who don't die and they have more than enough information on day 3. We couldn't do anything about a day 1 claim. That isn't our fault at all. I completely agree that you didn't HAVE to bus, but it was the safest way to win. But yes, the problem lay in you guys already having screwed up that opportunity, leaving it down to a decision on where RedFF and Kita would stand, which was unfortunately unfavorable to you. And of course you got lynched by your own fault, you have to remember, they only know either you guys or S&G are scum, you lost that argument to supersoft and greymist because they played well enough. It basically came down to a simple duel between S&G and Chezinu, and S&G came out on top this time. lol I really do disagree with this, but I'm not going to argue about it anymore because I know I'm more than a little mad right now. This game was extremely frustrating to me because I knew as soon as kita+red claimed on day 1 that it was going to be incredibly hard to win. I did my best, and we lost. Oh well. You did your best, the rest of your team didn't. You cannot argue with what's a fact. It really did come down to a 1v1 argument where both of you raced to convince the deciding team you were town, a race you lost. You made a few mistakes, but overall you played a really solid mafia game. The problem lies in your team. The fact you defended Kurumi and RoL multiple times throughout the game because they simply couldn't be arsed looking innocent, the fact that the Radfield side of your team who could've complemented your aggressive style with big solid posts very well was for the most part missing.... Those were the things that lost the game. There is no such thing as winning a game as mafia alone, you have to do it as a team because you never know when shit hits the fan. I found this out in personality where I was happily leading town until a random watcher found me out and suddenly the rest of the team had to scramble. The setup may have been slightly town favoured, after a very successful day1/night1 cycle, mafia was in prime position to win, all they had to do was to establish themselves as town and distance, because the parity cop could NEVER have more than one check because you found the doctor. Right, but one check is all the PC needed in a day 3 situation when there are four other players left. Think about it. If the PC gets one confirmed townie, then the PC just needs to muddy the check and then figure out which one is the last townie. If the PC gets two people as the same parity in the endgame situation, game just proceeds with preceding analysis. The only situation in which the PC has less than a 50% chance to score scum on day 3 is if both the checks died. No matter how we could've played it, town would've had at least a 50% chance to score scum on day 3. All you need is one shred of analysis and a bunch of dumb luck and you win the game right there. Town had exactly 50% chance of killing scum on day 3. last time I checked 50/50 is quite balanced isn't it? And technically it's not that bad if scum dies on day 3, you just shoot parity cop during the night, and you have another 50/50 shot to win the game. Because of your good first 2 days, you guys were set up to have 2x 50/50 chance of winning the game. That's odds anyone should take. It's always gonna come down to it in mafia, it's what the game is about, having to convince people in a 1v1 situation. This time it was S&G vs Chezinu, each team has equal chances of convincing red/kita they're town. If Chezinu wins it ends the game, but this time S&G won the duel. But Nipple didn't have to give up. Shoot, Red21, and then it's another 50/50 fight, where Nipple and GM fight to convince S&G they're scum. At this point it's perfectly balanced, in my opinion. The problem is you had to go too much out of your way earlier in the game due to lazy play by the rest of the scum, so you were already at a disadvantage. 50/50 is incredibly good chances for town when they've mislynched for two days straight. Only if the mafia already has put themselves out there. I understand you're frustrated, but you should know you played well this game, easily mafia mvp, and losing a very close game being the mvp of your team is pretty good. (You could tone down on the insults though). But you can't run out and blame external factors, you simply had too much weight to pull this game, and your team paid for it. I've two times ended up in a similar situation, that I can remember. 1st as mafia, where I had a 50/50 shot with a confirmed townie. I managed to convince him I was town and won the game. 2nd as town, where I was the confirmed townie, and both the others had claimed, sadly the townie botched his claim, and I was really new at the time and didn't read the thread properly (there were holes in the scum's story), I went with the wrong call and gave mafia the game. I'm not saying it's valid evidence to prove you wrong, just pointing out it can easily be done as scum. All the best mafia games come down to 3 people anyway, and one person is always technically confirmed because you as scum can't actually allow yourself to try and lynch either townie. It's a very common situation in mafia, and I think it's pretty fair.
Thanks, also this is for everyone: I hope you all realize that my insults aren't serious, and I actually do my best not to use insults. I just resort to calling people derps as much as possible when I see bad logic ^^ go ahead and flame me and vent your anger if I made you mad. Sorry.
I'm sure it can be done (I thought I could do it too, 50/50 is a coinflip after all) but I thought it was just unnecessarily difficult.
Like I said and I maintain this is a problem, when a roleclaim cannot be punished by mafia, there is a huge problem. Follow the cop situations are not fun because there's literally nothing scum can do about it short of brilliant play coupled with even more luck on their own part.
We needed to get lucky that kita didn't check us in order for the bus effort to work. The bus failed because kita checked us and S&G, effectively killing all chances of a bunch of scumteam possibilities.
|
isn't 2of4 experimental and new?
also it started out with the RB'er, and the RB'er was only removed because of the potential for jailor and RB to target each other.
Which, of course, glosses over the fact that a rolecop is not an effective deterrent to a follow-the-cop situation in such a small game.
|
On November 10 2011 08:18 Ace wrote:
So Town played like shit and still won? hah interesting
LOL
to be fair, mafia did play pretty shit too
|
On November 10 2011 08:26 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 08:23 Ace wrote:
@Palmar: If the town mislynches twice, does the wrong play and still wins - there might be something wrong with the setup. I haven't read this game or even looked at the roles yet though, I'm just commenting from skimming so far. Yes, I'm just trying to figure out how much is wrong with the setup. Town lucked on the most favorable town setup, town got lucky with the checks, and yet they almost lost. And this all with a pretty bad showing from the rest of mafia.
They only won BECAUSE they lucked out on the setup.
Had we gambled and tried to shoot the PC we would've lost even worse.
|
On November 10 2011 08:30 GreYMisT wrote:
The reason why town wasnt completely screwed at the end was only 1/4th of the mafia team was actually present at all. If the other 3 components were assembled it might have been a different story.
nah it wasn't as big a deal as you think it might be.
I even tried bussing them, it's only the check that prevented that from being doable.
If the check worked out correctly the plan was actually to bus kurumi's team. This was before the claim by GM.
My backup was to bus kurumi if the check confirmed GM as town but that didn't work either because the check forced me to talk about you guys.
EDIT: Can someone explain why F11 is not balanced?
I know very little about these setups except what I know from simply googling them.
|
On November 10 2011 08:38 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 08:32 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 08:30 GreYMisT wrote:
The reason why town wasnt completely screwed at the end was only 1/4th of the mafia team was actually present at all. If the other 3 components were assembled it might have been a different story. nah it wasn't as big a deal as you think it might be. I even tried bussing them, it's only the check that prevented that from being doable. If the check worked out correctly the plan was actually to bus kurumi's team. This was before the claim by GM. My backup was to bus kurumi if the check confirmed GM as town but that didn't work either because the check forced me to talk about you guys. And I think it's a bigger deal than you think it is.
How was I supposed to bus my teammate when the check forced me to try to kill S&G?
GM was confirmed to be a liar at that point, the logical conclusion for anyone (and I would do it even as town) would be to say okay, the other guy is scum and the confirmed liar is scum as well.
If I were town in S&G's position I would've done that.
|
On November 10 2011 08:51 Ace wrote:Ok started reading from endgame post Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:09 wherebugsgo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:06 GMarshal wrote:On November 10 2011 07:04 wherebugsgo wrote:This is the situation we faced this game: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Follow_the_Copit's really only breakable with a roleblocker. I wouldn't call the setup imbalanced if I hadn't experienced it myself (I'm not blaming anyone, I don't blame Palmar, I'm just saying that in the future this needs to be changed) IMO mafia should never be punished for forcing a roleclaim. People claiming and then loling to victory is just crazy stupid IMO. This game is about analysis, not dumb luck. That is why I argued for either a roleblocker/framer or a miller in the pregame, DT is just too powerful without it, especially if there is a high probability of protection roles being present. roleblocker would've balanced the setup, IMO. I personally just hate roleclaims. If I ever host a game I will probably punish roleclaimers very hard. TL towns tend to believe any role claim fed to them, but that's a big problem when generally only townies gain from roleclaims. Very rarely do scum roleclaims actually gain scum anything. Sometimes you see them do something but more often than not mafia only really gain from counterclaiming. Counterclaiming on day 1 this game would've taken balls, but we would've been dead day 2 and that wouldn't have been good. Roleclaims are good, and in games with really good players at some point they become necessary. The Town needs information. Punishing guys for roleclaiming usually leads to awkward situations and/or people getting upset at the mod. The level of gameplay also tends to become crap because claiming at the right time is a powerful strategy. As for the bolded - not true  Scum roleclaims are just as good as Town in most setups. The major difference between Town and Scum is motivation at the start of the game. If a Town player claims and can't be verified, and the same happens with a Scum player then is there any difference from a Town p.o.v.? You just have to blame people who accept any RC at face value, or a setup that lets Town PRs claim with no real consequence. "Follow The Cop" scenarios are one of these scenarios for sure. Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 07:13 Palmar wrote:On November 10 2011 07:04 wherebugsgo wrote:This is the situation we faced this game: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Follow_the_Copit's really only breakable with a roleblocker. I wouldn't call the setup imbalanced if I hadn't experienced it myself (I'm not blaming anyone, I don't blame Palmar, I'm just saying that in the future this needs to be changed) IMO mafia should never be punished for forcing a roleclaim. People claiming and then loling to victory is just crazy stupid IMO. This game is about analysis, not dumb luck. Follow the cop is not an issue with a parity cop (who essentially can only have one real result at the start of day 3) in a 7 player game with a role cop. What lost you the game was your (the mafia team's) inability to argue your way out of a lynch on day 3, or unwillingness to bus a partner to secure the win in lylo tomorrow. The reason I say follow the cop is not an issue this game is the following. Day 3 is the FIRST day a parity cop can have reliable results. Actually it is the same issue. Whether the Cop has results or not, it works for any information role that can't be safely CC but infinitely protected. The PC claims Day 1 with no CC because the Scum team isn't willing to risk one of it's members. Let's stop for a second and look at it again: The only chance a Scum team has of stopping a claimed PC is by CCing on Day 1 and losing one of it's members. If they don't get the PC lynched he is confirmed and they play find the Doc and almost surely lose. This isn't a good deal for Scum at all. At this point does it matter that the PC hasn't gotten a check yet? The same thing would happen if a Tracker claims Day 1 in this game. Your best outcome is going into Night 2 with 1 Scum team remaining vs a Doctor and a bunch of Townies. Not extremely bad but not even a fair winning position. You could play it this way 50 times and any sensible player that gets PC will always claim Day 1 knowing that both Scum options (let the claim ride, or counter-claim) lead to the Town almost surely winning anyway. Bussing your partner to win should never be a real option for a Scum team to win a game. If it comes down to that then something is seriously wrong. That doesn't excuse the rest of the Scum team for afking and leaving WBG to fight alone though. If you can't argue your way out of lynch you probably deserve to be screwed.
Maybe I should've said, "very rarely do any of the scum claims I've ever seen actually gain scum anything"
Granted, my experience is limited.
EDIT: Also, punish roleclaimers=include things like RB in the setup, where if you're forced to roleclaim you more or less lose your ability lol.
Kita and red roleclaimed on day 1 when there was a very strong case on them. We could've gotten them lynched (and I was looking forward to pushing it) and then they claimed and my dreams just got destroyed.
|
On November 10 2011 08:58 Palmar wrote:
That's exactly my proposal btw.
I agree the setup is town favoured, but after mafia had the identity of the doc at start of day 2, and had already secured a mislynch and a good nk, they were in a good position.
They got into a good position a screwed it up. They knew they would have to deal with 1, and exactly 1 result from the parity cop, which is frankly... okay.
Again, i'm not saying the setup was fine, I'm just pointing out with the good start that mafia got, it wasn't the setup that lost them the game more than their inability to get themselves out of that guillotine.
One result from the parity cop actually inherently gives you a second result free on day 3 if neither player is dead.
In other words, you just check two players you have a very strong feeling won't die by day 3 and you have every parity combination possible.
Then you muddy the waters and bait the scum and determine which one of the parities is scum and win.
|
On November 09 2011 09:31 GMarshal wrote:
Well it should be obvious I fakeclaimed as town to try to save the medic.
IN no scenario does it make sense for me to claim medic, at night, as scum, because in the best case scenario something like this happens. However as town it means I get to
1.) Save the real medic if he exists
2.) Give the DT a check, either by having him check me and dying or by letting him live and check someone else.
In the scenario in which no other blue exist, I gave the dt basically a free check into a pool of 3 players. In a scenario in which a medic exists, the game becomes unwinnable for mafia, unless the medic counterclaims at night. Which chaoser did.
If you examine the motivation behind the claim, there is no logic to it as scum, none. There is no reason I would risk a counterclaim like that or you know, a blue dying at night or CALLING FOR THE DT TO CHECK ME, if I were scum and not in a mental asylum.
lol kita
|
I used the fact that he said this to "show" that GM was mafia and he knew that a counterclaimer would be a medic.
You guys completely missed it because you weren't using logic on day 3.
EDIT: Which is weird because it resulted in you winning. Yay derp
|
On November 10 2011 09:05 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:02 Ace wrote: He can play this card from both alignments, hence you can't even take his excuse of doing it to WIFOM the Mafia seriously. The Town would have lost but it was the correct play. If it could have come from both alignments, you discard the information and base the lynch on the other 70 pages. Carrying out a policy lynch just for the sake of policy doesn't make sense.
It wouldn't have been a policy lynch.
Also in the end you guys disregarded your own thoughts prior to the night that team S&G was scummy.
When both team S&G and I said the same thing, and I pointed out how I would "never" shoot chaoser in such a situation, you should've realized that the only chance I would've shot chaoser is if we had a proper role check on night 1 on either chaoser or GM that confirmed one/the other as lying.
That's a 1/3 chance we role checked one of them, way too low to be dealing with in a LYLO situation. So, since you got opposite parity checks, you should've insta-lynched GM.
That didn't happen for whatever reason (I'm still not sure why I got lynched, actually) but whatever.
EDIT: Also, in hindsight, there IS one thing I would change.
I should've just shot team S&G and then insta-lynched GM with chaoser. It would've been suspicious that I switched from chaoser to GM the next morning but as long as chaoser voted I could've just voted GM and had Kurumi hammer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
