Team Melee Mini Mafia - Couples Therapy - Page 11

On November 10 2011 07:18 chaoser wrote:


Cough cough...

On November 10 2011 07:19 supersoft wrote:


oh well that's not true. we established ourselves much better as town than you did.
And I still think, that my plan to vote Kuru and bind you two together was good.

On November 10 2011 07:20 Palmar wrote:


I completely agree that you didn't HAVE to bus, but it was the safest way to win. But yes, the problem lay in you guys already having screwed up that opportunity, leaving it down to a decision on where RedFF and Kita would stand, which was unfortunately unfavorable to you.

And of course you got lynched by your own fault, you have to remember, they only know either you guys or S&G are scum, you lost that argument to supersoft and greymist because they played well enough.

It basically came down to a simple duel between S&G and Chezinu, and S&G came out on top this time.

On November 10 2011 07:24 chaoser wrote:


I've fake claimed previously as mafia to great effect before you came

On November 10 2011 07:28 Palmar wrote:


You did your best, the rest of your team didn't. You cannot argue with what's a fact. It really did come down to a 1v1 argument where both of you raced to convince the deciding team you were town, a race you lost.

You made a few mistakes, but overall you played a really solid mafia game. The problem lies in your team. The fact you defended Kurumi and RoL multiple times throughout the game because they simply couldn't be arsed looking innocent, the fact that the Radfield side of your team who could've complemented your aggressive style with big solid posts very well was for the most part missing....

Those were the things that lost the game.

There is no such thing as winning a game as mafia alone, you have to do it as a team because you never know when shit hits the fan. I found this out in personality where I was happily leading town until a random watcher found me out and suddenly the rest of the team had to scramble.

The setup may have been slightly town favoured, after a very successful day1/night1 cycle, mafia was in prime position to win, all they had to do was to establish themselves as town and distance, because the parity cop could NEVER have more than one check because you found the doctor.

On November 10 2011 07:36 GreYMisT wrote:


But on day3 with 3 town 2 scum you have bassically a 50% chance to hit scum anyway, regardless of the settup

On November 10 2011 07:41 Palmar wrote:


Town had exactly 50% chance of killing scum on day 3.

last time I checked 50/50 is quite balanced isn't it? And technically it's not that bad if scum dies on day 3, you just shoot parity cop during the night, and you have another 50/50 shot to win the game. Because of your good first 2 days, you guys were set up to have 2x 50/50 chance of winning the game. That's odds anyone should take.

It's always gonna come down to it in mafia, it's what the game is about, having to convince people in a 1v1 situation. This time it was S&G vs Chezinu, each team has equal chances of convincing red/kita they're town. If Chezinu wins it ends the game, but this time S&G won the duel. But Nipple didn't have to give up.

Shoot, Red21, and then it's another 50/50 fight, where Nipple and GM fight to convince S&G they're scum.

At this point it's perfectly balanced, in my opinion. The problem is you had to go too much out of your way earlier in the game due to lazy play by the rest of the scum, so you were already at a disadvantage.

On November 10 2011 07:47 redFF wrote:
we were never confirmed town btw, it could have been a 1 medic setup.

On November 10 2011 07:51 GreYMisT wrote:


thats something you really can't fix though. if we assume a settup with 8 town and 2 scum, the town has a 20% chance to random a scum. As they fail, the scum and town numbers reach an equillibrium, bringing it close to 50%. Town doesnt truely have a favored odds to lynch scum, because if it ever reaches exactly 50% the game is over because scum can control and neutralize the lynch.

On November 10 2011 07:52 Palmar wrote:


Only if the mafia already has put themselves out there. I understand you're frustrated, but you should know you played well this game, easily mafia mvp, and losing a very close game being the mvp of your team is pretty good. (You could tone down on the insults though). But you can't run out and blame external factors, you simply had too much weight to pull this game, and your team paid for it.

I've two times ended up in a similar situation, that I can remember.

1st as mafia, where I had a 50/50 shot with a confirmed townie. I managed to convince him I was town and won the game.
2nd as town, where I was the confirmed townie, and both the others had claimed, sadly the townie botched his claim, and I was really new at the time and didn't read the thread properly (there were holes in the scum's story), I went with the wrong call and gave mafia the game.

I'm not saying it's valid evidence to prove you wrong, just pointing out it can easily be done as scum. All the best mafia games come down to 3 people anyway, and one person is always technically confirmed because you as scum can't actually allow yourself to try and lynch either townie.

It's a very common situation in mafia, and I think it's pretty fair.

On November 10 2011 08:18 Ace wrote:
So Town played like shit and still won? hah interesting

On November 10 2011 08:26 Palmar wrote:


Yes, I'm just trying to figure out how much is wrong with the setup.

Town lucked on the most favorable town setup, town got lucky with the checks, and yet they almost lost. And this all with a pretty bad showing from the rest of mafia.

On November 10 2011 08:30 GreYMisT wrote:
The reason why town wasnt completely screwed at the end was only 1/4th of the mafia team was actually present at all. If the other 3 components were assembled it might have been a different story.

On November 10 2011 08:38 Palmar wrote:


And I think it's a bigger deal than you think it is.

On November 10 2011 08:51 Ace wrote:
Ok started reading from endgame post





Roleclaims are good, and in games with really good players at some point they become necessary. The Town needs information. Punishing guys for roleclaiming usually leads to awkward situations and/or people getting upset at the mod. The level of gameplay also tends to become crap because claiming at the right time is a powerful strategy.

As for the bolded - not true
Scum roleclaims are just as good as Town in most setups. The major difference between Town and Scum is motivation at the start of the game. If a Town player claims and can't be verified, and the same happens with a Scum player then is there any difference from a Town p.o.v.? You just have to blame people who accept any RC at face value, or a setup that lets Town PRs claim with no real consequence. "Follow The Cop" scenarios are one of these scenarios for sure.



Actually it is the same issue. Whether the Cop has results or not, it works for any information role that can't be safely CC but infinitely protected. The PC claims Day 1 with no CC because the Scum team isn't willing to risk one of it's members. Let's stop for a second and look at it again:

The only chance a Scum team has of stopping a claimed PC is by CCing on Day 1 and losing one of it's members. If they don't get the PC lynched he is confirmed and they play find the Doc and almost surely lose. This isn't a good deal for Scum at all.

At this point does it matter that the PC hasn't gotten a check yet?
The same thing would happen if a Tracker claims Day 1 in this game. Your best outcome is going into Night 2 with 1 Scum team remaining vs a Doctor and a bunch of Townies. Not extremely bad but not even a fair winning position. You could play it this way 50 times and any sensible player that gets PC will always claim Day 1 knowing that both Scum options (let the claim ride, or counter-claim) lead to the Town almost surely winning anyway.

Bussing your partner to win should never be a real option for a Scum team to win a game. If it comes down to that then something is seriously wrong.

That doesn't excuse the rest of the Scum team for afking and leaving WBG to fight alone though. If you can't argue your way out of lynch you probably deserve to be screwed.

On November 10 2011 08:58 Palmar wrote:
That's exactly my proposal btw.

I agree the setup is town favoured, but after mafia had the identity of the doc at start of day 2, and had already secured a mislynch and a good nk, they were in a good position.

They got into a good position a screwed it up. They knew they would have to deal with 1, and exactly 1 result from the parity cop, which is frankly... okay.

Again, i'm not saying the setup was fine, I'm just pointing out with the good start that mafia got, it wasn't the setup that lost them the game more than their inability to get themselves out of that guillotine.

On November 09 2011 09:31 GMarshal wrote:
Well it should be obvious I fakeclaimed as town to try to save the medic.

IN no scenario does it make sense for me to claim medic, at night, as scum, because in the best case scenario something like this happens. However as town it means I get to

1.) Save the real medic if he exists
2.) Give the DT a check, either by having him check me and dying or by letting him live and check someone else.

In the scenario in which no other blue exist, I gave the dt basically a free check into a pool of 3 players. In a scenario in which a medic exists, the game becomes unwinnable for mafia, unless the medic counterclaims at night. Which chaoser did.

If you examine the motivation behind the claim, there is no logic to it as scum, none. There is no reason I would risk a counterclaim like that or you know, a blue dying at night or CALLING FOR THE DT TO CHECK ME, if I were scum and not in a mental asylum.

On November 10 2011 09:05 kitaman27 wrote:


If it could have come from both alignments, you discard the information and base the lynch on the other 70 pages. Carrying out a policy lynch just for the sake of policy doesn't make sense.