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On October 24 2011 07:51 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 07:12 Qatol wrote:On October 24 2011 07:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I'm saying that I personally don't like it, but if everyone else playing on TL mafia doesn't care, or think it's a problem, then I'm fine if something just is added to the OP of PM games, along the lines of "Keep in mind impersonation outside of PMs is possible", to warn players, and also give a buffer to new players to stop them from outing their entire team.
I think it's a pretty crappy way to play the game, if let's say Nooby McGee was playing for the first time, and someone posing as one of his scumbuddies contacted him in IRC saying "What do you think of our team mates so far?" and he gave the entire list of mafia over to town on day 1, because he didn't realize that IRC impersonation was possible.
It's situations like that I want to avoid, because it isn't mafia, it's just dumb, and that's just one example. I absolutely agree that it's a crappy way to play the game. I can add something about using IRC at your own risk to the model OP if you like. That sounds fine, just something to let newer players know that they shouldn't trust everything on IRC necessarily. For example, I wasn't really aware of it, and I'm sure Cyber wasn't aware of it when he confirmed himself and Chaoser as scum. I'm just glad he didn't out more of us. Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 07:16 JimboSilvers wrote:
The problem with the irc impersonation is the fact that i could have caught every scum that ever logged into irc with it. I didn't because I realized that it was game breaking, and stopped. It's extremely powerful, especially when people are unaware of it like they were this game.
That being said, i DON'T think it should be banned. Those avenues should be open, and people should be allowed to be creative with their play (like honeypot). Looked down on? Sure, but banned? No. I think that people should be made aware of it, so that they can defend against it, but I really feel like it is in the same grain as bread-crumbing roles, and alignment PMs, which have been traditionally allowed. Mafia is a multi-faceted game, and I want it to remain that way. Creativity should always be rewarded. I still think it should be a host decision, though, and it would just be enforced in the same way as any other rules. Most of the rules on TL Mafia are enforced by the honour system more than anything else. For example, there's not really a way to tell if two players are breaking a no-PM rule unless one of them outs the other. Same thing for breaking into someone's TL account to look at their role PM. Most of this just relies an an inherent amount of trust in the players. So, making it a host decision shouldn't make more work for the hosts, as it would just work the same way as most every other rule in the game. This is the same way role PM bread-crumbing works too, some hosts allow it, others put example PMs in their OP to negate it, and others modkill you if you mention anything from a PM sent from a host. Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 07:21 wherebugsgo wrote: Wiggles, itcertainly seems like people are QQing about it when they say that it's against the spirit of the game. It's a form of infiltration. Politics. That's what this game was about. Mafia could've impersonated town to try and get information. Mafia could've tried to get into town circles to try and sabotage them from the inside. Instead, you guys were complacent, your play was bland, and you all suffered for it. I'll put this here: On October 12 2011 11:47 Protactinium wrote:
Roles are now out. You have ~24 hours (until 03:00 GMT (+00:00) tomorrow) to turn in your number picks.
Announcement: OriginalName and redFF are sharing the account JACCUZISPLAT.
As a word of warning: This is more than just a standard mafia game. It is a game of intrigue and politics. Plotting and scheming will go a long way to further your goals. Tell me, other than sandro, which scum even attempted to scheme or plan to sabotage town goals? Finally, chaoser was going to get shot well before the IRC debacle. To say that he was caught by the IRC impersonation is a misrepresentation, only cheese was caught that way. This isn't about town or mafia, or even this game. I don't really like it, because while it might be creative, it doesn't really require any skill or finesse. There's not much skill involved in pretending to be someone else and getting them to claim to you because they think you're their team mate. Like I've said, you could win the game on day 1 this way, if mafia aren't aware of the strategy. Also, when I say Chaoser was caught, that's because he was. It doesn't matter if you though he was scummy or not beforehand, I was just using him as an example. If Player A responds as a scumbuddy Player B, that pretty much confirms both Player A and Player B as scum. You just caught two mafia, doing nothing. Your line of reasoning doesn't hold, either. Saying it's a game of intrigue and politics could be used to justify any action. What if someone impersonated the mods in IRC and had people claim to them? Is that OK because it's scheming, and this is a game of intrigue and politics? There isn't a rule against it explicitly in the OP, so it must be fine, right? This is where the "spirit of the game" comes in, because players should be able to use their own judgement for what's acceptable or not in a game. The OP can't cover everything. That's also why we should discuss things like this, that fall into a somewhat grey area, just like we discussed account-sharing before, when that came up. So, judging by the discussion, people don't think this is a problem, so I'm going to drop it. The warning in the OP should be good enough to warn people about it, so we don't get unaware mafia handing out all their members to town. (Also funny because of rule number 2) It's important they know, because it's almost required that some of them use a public IRC if it exists, or else they just let town set up a giant circle where mafia can't see what's happening and can't influence it in any way. I still think it should ultimately be a host decision, though.
Of course my logic holds.
Impersonating the mods is already illegal because you're not allowed to impersonate people who are not participating in the game. There was a precedent for that and it might not be in the OP but that's not even what I'm suggesting.
And again, this completely ignores a multitude of different things.
Foolishness early in the game trashed the idea of public IRC. He received PMs from myself and Hiro; I asked him why he would say such a thing as town. Is it not clear now why an experienced player would think public IRC is useless? (and IRC in general is an unreliable form of communication)
Finally, of course it's about mafia and town in this game. Mafia did nothing to stop town from infiltrating their circles. It was carelessness and complacency. If I was scum I would have my own private, passworded IRC channel (if we were to use IRC at all). In fact, Chezinu house had a more secret IRC channel than probably anyone else.
And again, it's not really much about tech savvyness, or whatever. You can figure out how to password lock and make a channel secret in about five seconds on google. You can ask people to do PM verification in a matter of seconds. IMO this kind of thing is a complete non issue because of the number of ways to avoid getting duped.
I think the OP change is completely fair and good for newer players, but there is absolutely no excuse, IMO, for more experienced players.
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I actually don't like PM games, now that I've played two.
I prefer regular non-PM games, but that's just me.
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On October 24 2011 08:12 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 07:49 wherebugsgo wrote:On October 24 2011 07:41 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On October 24 2011 06:34 wherebugsgo wrote:
I don't see how public key cryptography would change a thread game into a PM game. If it's public key then everyone can crack the crypt.
Public key crypto would turn a thread game into a PM game, a key being public doesn't mean everyone can crack it. Public key cryptography is basically what makes e-commerce possible, and why your credit card info hasn't been stolen a hundred times over. If you want some more details of how, just look up RSA on wikipedia. Even with far less advanced ciphers it would be easy to communicate privately in a public thread as long as everyone else has limited programming knowledge. Hell, if prplhz knows what he is doing since he mentioned it (and if I don't screw it up), we could demonstrate. Except you have to keep one key private, while the other is public, correct? I don't see how that furthers the goal of trying to get PMs in a non-PM game. I give out my public key in a thread, the person I want to talk to does the same with his public key. I encrypt a message to him using his public key and post it in the thread. Since only he has the corresponding private key, only he can read the message. He replies with a message encrypted using my public key, I decrypt it with my private key. Nobody else can read those messages without finding out one of the private keys, which with a 2048 bit key, which would take the most powerful supercomputer in existence today years to crack. If only 1 person can read the message, it sounds a lot like a PM to me.
This is rather off topic, but I'll just restate this again:
If one of the keys needs to be private, how are you going to get the key to the other person without using a private form of communication?
I can see this simply resulting in a modkill for precisely that reason.
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On October 24 2011 08:43 Ace wrote:
Even discussing whats in your role PM should be a 5 game ban at the minimum. Like this shit is common sense. Don't quote it, don't allude to it, don't ask "hey what is the 4th word in your role PM?", don't try and intentionally use a unique word in the role PM in casual chat, just fucking BAN PMs. God every fucking one of these PM based games have been absolute shit for the last 5 years. I don't know why you guys continue to do it. Add in a game with 3 Mafia factions that have to compete with each other + the Town for roles and you've got a disaster waiting to happen without some seriously great players.
But what do I know, I'm just some guy that's amazed Tranformers is showing on TBS and Transformers 2 is showing on FX at the same time.
hahaha
I would actually have to agree with Ace here, I'd rather the mafia forum just have regular games. PM games seem to be really messed up to me.
EDIT: Also yeah prpl, I was misunderstanding what public key encryption is.
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I kept dropping you hints that he was DF.
"why would someone above 14 pick DF"
"it's process of elimination I think there's only a couple people who can be DF"
I'm surprised you didn't catch on. If you were town I figured you would've known that hiro was DF. You never caught on so I was left unsure whether or not it was a good idea to straight up tell you why hiro was town.
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I just remembered a couple more things now that I've read the last page:
Mafia not going for KP or vote rigging roles was rather dumb. Tudor house had picks 1 and 4 and they chose RS/BP. Those are really dumb picks IMO. rockstar as #1 draft pick basically gives you away because there are two players who instantly know what you are. Had meapak picked NRA or some sort of other role instead he would've been in a really good position. Take inventor, for example. If he had inventor and decon took vote rigger meapak would be immune to the lynch the next day. He could then get two inventions off and give his team a HUGE advantage. Then imagine that the third scum on their team went for something like witch, medic, or doctor; they could use their ability on n2 to save meapak from a shot.
The inventions could be anything and it would completely screw over town and the other teams.
Decon being BP was also unexpected since it's really pretty useless when you're the #1 lynch candidate. He was in a great position to just lead town to lynching other scum but he was so scummy we just lynched him day 2 (or nukes I don't remember, we basically had a double lynch everyday)
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On October 25 2011 05:59 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 04:15 wherebugsgo wrote:
Mafia not going for KP or vote rigging roles was rather dumb. Well from our perspective, saving one of our own would have had to be equivalent to 4-5 kp to keep the ratios the same. In a setup where survival was so important, obtaining extra kp wasn't a top priority. If we had realize the vote rigger could be used to rig the mayor election, we probably would have selected it. Otherwise, controlling the lynch isn't as powerful since for every 1 lynch kp, there is a ton more night kp to worry about.
Right, but look at what happened:
Townies had almost all the KP and scum elected two DTs into office. Voterigger could have been used to save one of the lynches and turn it into a lynch of Mig, for example. Or double lynch (when each day almost all the votes were on one player) so that one or two townies die. If your scumbuddy is getting lynched day 2 or day 3 or whatever, voterigger uses his double lynch and the guy getting lynched puts his vote on Radfield.
WAY more powerful than puppeteer, or hider (rofl most scum role in the game), or RS, or NKVD.
Saying you didn't know how the roles worked isn't really an excuse, since you could've just PMed Ver or Incog and asked. The fact that mafia didn't do their research on the roles is pretty clear, since Kenpachi picked NKVD on the assumption that it would give him the entire family in one shot (wtf lol)
EDIT: And I don't know what exactly the defensive roles accomplish from your perspective.
You KNOW you're fighting with town on getting those defensive roles. The vote altering and KP roles will be less competitive, naturally. KP and vote altering roles make your setup more flexible. You can choose who you want to kill every night and you can save yourselves from being lynched by the town/manipulate the lynch to ensure victory.
Janitor would've been a great choice too, that would've caused a ton of chaos in a game of information.
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If only scum had puppets why would anyone ever reply to them?
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What a convoluted setup lol. I don't even see the purpose of it.
Giving every scumteam a puppet is kinda weird. I don't think town stands to gain anything when they know they're talking to a scum. Maybe take out PMs entirely and add a couple roles that have one shot PM abilities, but not so sure about the puppet business (does it really belong in a PYP anyway?)
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I identified most of the players I was talking to via PMs within about half an hour. Mig, Radfield, Jimbo, Foolish, Sandro, chaoser, GreyMist, DropBear, supersoft, Erandorr, syllo, prpl, ON. All of them, I knew their alignments with a short 15-20 minute conversation.
The exception to this was Palmar, I just couldn't tell what he was and for a while I thought he was scum.
Knowing that, why didn't you guys just PM people and see what you thought? Once you get in a situation where you claim scum, either they play along or they ditch/out you. If you get outed in the thread, and you have said reasonably "pro-town" things behind the scenes to well established town players, you'll be fine. Example: sandro.
Sandro's crutch was that he wasn't doing enough scheming with other scum. He was mostly stuck in the town circle.
For me, most of my opinions about players were rather accurate, but I was having problems discerning my own opinions from the opinions of others. If scum are good about it they can all push subtle agendas through different avenues and different players. Eventually people will start thinking things without actually knowing the genesis of the idea. Sandro pulled this very effectively with Rad/Mig to make them think Foolish and Jimbo were scummier than they really were.
I don't think mafia did as much as they could have done with the PMs. I'm not a fan of PMs, but there's no real room here to say that you didn't have a reliable form of communication with other scum if you didn't actually try very hard. You, wiggles, were almost never in IRC, for one.
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None of that applies when scum don't PM to begin with.
3/4 of the scum in this game did next to nothing in PMs. You won't know until you try; I didn't see you trying very hard lol
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Syllo you called me unhelpful day 0 for calling you out on thinking sandro was town.
I told you I believed sandro's logic for thinking Mig was town was really bad and you basically said I was being anti-town. Regardless of what your circle thought of Foolishness, had more scum taken advantage of that rift between town factions like sandro did, we would've been in a lot of trouble.
Hopefully next time you don't rely on a cheap trick to try and confirm your good friends as being town, because that was honestly incredibly frustrating to deal with on day 0/1. You and sandro considered each other town for completely illogical and stupid reasons.
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On October 26 2011 17:59 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 17:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
Syllo you called me unhelpful day 0 for calling you out on thinking sandro was town.
I told you I believed sandro's logic for thinking Mig was town was really bad and you basically said I was being anti-town. Regardless of what your circle thought of Foolishness, had more scum taken advantage of that rift between town factions like sandro did, we would've been in a lot of trouble.
Hopefully next time you don't rely on a cheap trick to try and confirm your good friends as being town, because that was honestly incredibly frustrating to deal with on day 0/1. You and sandro considered each other town for completely illogical and stupid reasons. No, I called you unhelpful because you were refusing to vote for Mig over Greymist even in the scenario that your least wanted candidate, radfield, was going to get elected anyway and in general were undermining our efforts to get a very likely townie and a DT elected. Greymist was a horrible candidate, which was one of the reasons we were suspicious of Foolishness, but you refused to budge, as is typical of you. I never considered sandroba "99%" town or anything close to that; me and mig were both incredibly suspicious of him early on. The suspicion only somewhat subsided because he became completely supportive of everything we did and didn't push for any scum objectives. This is because we pretty much cornered him by making it nearly impossible for him not to be convinced of our innocence. It's rather hilarious to see you suggest I'm frustrating to deal with, given your own quite earned reputation. As for illogical and stupid, well I'm not even going to touch that. Note that I never gave Sandroba any information whatsoever.
If you remember, I refused to vote for Mig when I didn't know why I felt like scum were voting for him and Radfield.
I wanted to know why you simply accepted Sandroba's reasoning for voting Mig. It was, if I remember correctly, something like "I think syllo is town therefore since syllo is voting Mig I think Mig is also town so I'll vote him."
I kept pushing that Radfield and Mig had scum voting them and we needed to find out why/who they were, so I decided to try pushing Greymist for mayor. I refused to budge (in terms of what I communicated to you) but if you remember I actually did vote Mig.
And of course I refused to budge on what I was telling you simply because I didn't like your circle very much at the time. Even night 2?, Radfield seemed to have trusted sandro, and that could have been a problem if we hadn't done so well with the other scum.
EDIT:
Also I have to say, you were the only one out of your circle who I felt that way about.
I felt completely fine with talking to Mig and Radfield, I just felt that they gave sandro too much slack.
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I denied leaking the information because I was in a very awkward situation.
I was confident Mig was some sort of DT, so I felt he needed to know certain things. I didn't tell him much, just what I felt was necessary (at first). I was highly suspicious of sandro and I knew that, regardless of alignment, Radfield wouldn't be a good person to tell things because of his connection to sandro. However I was confident that Mig was town and I gave him information that I knew he would find useful.
I chose to deny leaking that information even though Mig gave me away by telling syllo (god damn it) because I was being persuaded that Foolish was untrustworthy. At the time I was very torn; I felt the same way I felt in XLV. I was in contact with two town circles, neither of which trusted the other. That's an incredibly weird situation to be in.
In Mig's defense I knew that if he had some info he would find it useful. I never gave him everything, just what I thought was necessary. I did not tell him about decon or anything really that wasn't concrete until I was sure it was safe to get that information out.
In the end no harm came from it because I was able to confirm sandro and prpl as scum even before they were checked. We even more or less caught Kenpachi; I flirted with the idea of contacting him but Mig warned against it on the final night.
Overall if I had to do it again I would definitely leak that information again. I routinely narrowly missed being shot by scum every night and I managed to get town valuable information at the same time. I regret shooting foolish, but ultimately that didn't turn out to be that harmful. In the future I'll hopefully learn to balance my own opinions with those of others (I had opposite problems this game and in XLV; in XLV my opinions were consistently wrong so I came into this game with the expectation that I would be wrong right away)
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EPT
