EPTBut what do I know, I'm just some guy that's amazed Tranformers is showing on TBS and Transformers 2 is showing on FX at the same time.
Pick Your Power Interesting! - Page 79
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
But what do I know, I'm just some guy that's amazed Tranformers is showing on TBS and Transformers 2 is showing on FX at the same time. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
On October 24 2011 06:34 wherebugsgo wrote: I don't see how public key cryptography would change a thread game into a PM game. If it's public key then everyone can crack the crypt. Either you're being overly obstructive, or you do not understand public-key cryptography. On October 24 2011 07:06 Qatol wrote: All I'm trying to point out is that there are ways around the problem you were discussing other than making a lot more work for the hosts. I think the players in this game relied too much upon IRC. Here is the problem: it is extremely hard to moderate how people act on IRC. It is also hard to figure out exactly who is breaking the rules in such a medium if they are more tech savvy than you are. Most hosts are not particularly tech savvy. Thus, hosts generally don't try to police things like IRC. This isn't the first game with IRC infiltrations/impersonations/etc (see Mafia 2, Ace's Mafia World, and Mafia 5 for example). Generally the solution to that is for the players to be more mindful that IRC is a lot less secure than IM/gchat or PM/quicktopic. The last time I was mafia, we used IRC but we used a different gateway, a password protected channel, and everyone used names other than our TL names. The hosts have enough to worry about in the thread. This shouldn't be their problem. You used IRC at your own risk and you got burned because of it. I totally agree, hosts should not moderate IRC or Skype or QuickTopics at all. But there are a lot of the rules that rely on people just abiding by the rules, even if they could break them. An example of this is the "Don't be a dick" rule that I'm pretty sure is in there somewhere, if you're mafia then don't make a smurf on teamliquid.net and send out PMs to everybody with the mafia list just to be a dick. Hosts have absolutely no powers to prevent this, and only very limited ability to find out who did it, yet it never happens. Because people generally will abide by the rules. Make a rule and people will follow it. Also, impersonating a host is illegal but not impersonating another player? How is it harder to keep track of who is impersonating other players than it is keeping track of who is impersonating the host? It isn't, but people still don't do it because it's against the rules. It's cool that people have used IRC infiltration and stuff like that before, but when I hear about it, it's mostly that those people ruined the game. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's not why people sign up to play this, to put a lot of effort into playing this game to the best of their ability and then some dude hacks their IRC channel or whatever. The people in that IRC channel didn't really have fun there. Just because it's been done before doesn't mean that it's a great thing and that it's cool and all. I don't like it but like most other people I agree that if hosts think it's alright they should just allow it. I just don't think that it's the best way to play, and I do think that hosts can easily do something about it, just make a rule and people will follow it. No overhead at all in this for you, and a more fun game. @wherebugsgo Like HarbingerOfDoom said, if you don't fully understand public-key cryptography there's a wikipedia page that explains it all. It would allow for private communication over a public channel such as a thread  | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On October 24 2011 08:43 Ace wrote: Even discussing whats in your role PM should be a 5 game ban at the minimum. Like this shit is common sense. Don't quote it, don't allude to it, don't ask "hey what is the 4th word in your role PM?", don't try and intentionally use a unique word in the role PM in casual chat, just fucking BAN PMs. God every fucking one of these PM based games have been absolute shit for the last 5 years. I don't know why you guys continue to do it. Add in a game with 3 Mafia factions that have to compete with each other + the Town for roles and you've got a disaster waiting to happen without some seriously great players. But what do I know, I'm just some guy that's amazed Tranformers is showing on TBS and Transformers 2 is showing on FX at the same time. hahaha I would actually have to agree with Ace here, I'd rather the mafia forum just have regular games. PM games seem to be really messed up to me. EDIT: Also yeah prpl, I was misunderstanding what public key encryption is. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
On October 24 2011 08:43 Ace wrote: Even discussing whats in your role PM should be a 5 game ban at the minimum. Like this shit is common sense. Don't quote it, don't allude to it, don't ask "hey what is the 4th word in your role PM?", don't try and intentionally use a unique word in the role PM in casual chat, just fucking BAN PMs. God every fucking one of these PM based games have been absolute shit for the last 5 years. I don't know why you guys continue to do it. Add in a game with 3 Mafia factions that have to compete with each other + the Town for roles and you've got a disaster waiting to happen without some seriously great players. But what do I know, I'm just some guy that's amazed Tranformers is showing on TBS and Transformers 2 is showing on FX at the same time. With careful consideration I think that while I have personally learned a fair bit from pm use (being able to talk with people while learning to figure out issues with my own play was useful) as an observer I can see instantly how they alter the game. I also can see why the mason role is so powerful depending on its use. I will say this for one simple reason. Everyone go back and briefly read mafia XLII. It was the game where everyone had two free mason uses. With very and I mean very little effort, a few well placed shots and 2 spots of manipulation via pms and the town was instantly lost and confused. The level of effort required was near 0 but the payoff for mafia was almost instantanious. When it comes to PM's, it doesn't become a game of who is better at scumhunting it comes down to do you trust your buddy. Some cases town roles instantly group up and Rofl pwn mafia, in other games its reverse. In either case it doesn't prove who is better at the game but more who can more accurately con people in a live discussion. Actions in thread, (in games like pick your power) role selection, etc... are all more telling than what joe said on irc. I honestly think we need to step back from pm games (as much as I have loved them, it pains me to say it) as I think they currently harm more games than make them better. I think that aside from the possibility of including a mason role in a game (ie limited to 1-2 people) that automatically granted pm ability removed. The entire atmosphere of the game changes far too drastically with its inclusion and in most recent cases the core skills of mafia (analysis, proper kp usage, debating and the like) all take a backseat to irc/pms/skype. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
On October 24 2011 07:50 Protactinium wrote: My question is why nobody ever noticed that the janitor is extremely potent in this setup? Just think about how this game could have been very different if the Day 2 post came up with 5 names with no alignment or role. One mafia team now has a monopoly on this information, and mass chaos/uncertainty/doubt spread through the thread. The town and other two mafia factions are significantly behind, as they are permanently missing some critical early game information. The role doesn't even have to be used in combination with anything to be that strong and would have seriously been my #1 pick as mafia. Just look how much chaos occured when Foolishness/Jimbo flipped House Chezinu. Jack, NRA Member, Hero, Veteran, Meth Man, and Assassin are also all amazing, but none of those got picked either. I was talking to sandroba about his teams rolepicks into day 2 of the game and how they missed the boat on some really solid roles. I mentioned janitor as a possibility and in conjunction to the idea i mentioned before (vote rigger/aoc/showtime/janitor) would have been a vile combo -_-. regardless you are correct that the role is insanely good in a setup with this many factions where information is so important | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On October 24 2011 08:28 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Also, public IRC is not that great because it doesn't let you pressure anyone, as people can feign AFK to avoid real-time pressure, and not everyone has all the logs because not all logs are posted, and no one's signed in all the time. So, you cause an information disadvantage for many players, without really gaining anything when compared to just talking in the thread. There's probably many other reasons why a public IRC isn't that great, but I don't think Foolishness had impersonation in mind when he said that. Hilariously, I was actually the first person to impersonate someone this game. As soon as the roles went out, I logged onto irc as BarBaPoPPa. I don't use irc so I was just checking to see if it would work (open new tab, try logging in as someone else). kitaman27 can vouch for me as he caught me doing it =P On October 24 2011 00:10 Radfield wrote: There were several reasons I thought Foolish was scum. *His general inactivity from my point of view. He was claiming he was very active, yet from what I could tell, and the players I spoke with, he was actually doing very little. Of course this is because he was working in scum circles, and I was working in town circles. *His mayoral vote was very suspicious. On one hand he was telling several players he thought I was likely town, yet on the other hand he was telling different players that it was essential I not get elected. This was part of his response to me asking him why he was pushing Greymist: A lot of the reason I did not want you to get into office was because I knew I couldn't manipulate you very well if I needed to. Obviously I couldn't directly tell you that. =P *Most of my suspicion however came from direct dealing with him however. Foolish kept dripping me tidbits of mostly unimportant info, or info I already knew, and claiming to other players to 'ask Radfield how helpful he was being'. It seemed he was trying to pump me for information, while giving me what I felt was fairly irrelevant or already known info. I obviously did not know how much information you knew, because you had a handful of people and blue roles at your disposal and I had 2 other people and only words at my disposal. Also, as soon as I was getting people confirmed as mafia they were dying. From what I understand, the Chezinu family was the first to find out a few chunks of information, then Jimbo and bugs leaked it out to your group and whoever else. You'll obviously have to verify that as I cannot, but that was the impression I was under. -He wanted to know how Cheese died(Asking about townside KP in my eyes. Not to mention I already suspected Foolish of being Lancaster, so in my mind this was asking how his buddy died.) Cheese died was a huge mystery to me at first. Presumably only they Chezinu family knew he was mafia. If bugs told anyone else (you, mig, etc) he didn't tell me that he told you guys. And I was the only person in the Chezinu family to reveal my role, so I had no idea that bugs needed to be shooting someone every night. I didn't think the mafia would hit him (the other mafia hits made more sense in my eyes) so I thought that your group hit him. -He told me Tudors had killed Kitaman(Something that was irrelevant to me as I already assumed one of the other scum teams had killed him. This actually made me more suspicious as I couldn't see why a townie would really care which scum killed a different scum, so why did he think it was important i knew?) I think it's important information. I've told a few people this already, but this is a game about families. The differences in this game between town circles was because the Chezinu's were hunting for families while you and Mig were just scum hunting as if it was any other mafia game. A mafia family hitting another is important because it shows that the families lack information about each other and, more importantly, they aren't in contact or working with each other. For my objectives that is a very important piece of information. This is part of the reason I asked you if you knew how cheese died. -Asked me about Hiro's alignment, specifically not his role, just alignment.(Fishing for DF in my eyes. I already knew that by process of elimination, Dreamflower could only possibly be one of a few players, since prp had publicly claimed he went for DF. Foolish seemed like he was trying to make it look like an innocent question by stressing only alignment, when in fact a simple answer from me would confirm him as dreamflower) I can explain this. When I was narrowing Tudors in the middle of day 2, hiro was a major suspect. I had no idea that he was dreamflower (I thought someone higher up was dreamflower actually), nor did I care what his role was, I just needed to know if he was innocent or not. I didn't particularly care for what roles people had, I was hunting families. - Told me Deconduo was 100% Tudor scum. (Keep in mind this is AFTER Kenpachi had already posted this in the thread, so I was honestly a bit confused as to why Foolish thought he was even being helpful with this tidbit. However it did show me Foolish wasn't properly reading the thread, since he didn't know KP had revealed Decons family, nor did he even realize NKVD could do this) I already told you that this was because I misread the role descriptions. These were pretty much the four items we discussed, and all four made me think Foolish was scum, though I see now that from his point of view they wouldn't have seemed so scummy. Palmar had also had a convo in which it seemed Foolish had basically claimed scum:http://pastebin.com/jNR7xVau In fact they were both pretty much fishing each other.... This is the PM I recieved from Foolish the night he was killed: This was supposed to be the big relevation of information he was going to give me, in case he was killed. Supersoft was basically already 90% for sure scum to me given that he had claimed hider, and given his in-thread actions, and more importantly given the list. He also mentions the remaining Tudor is one of 5 players..... so big deal. Lastly is the mention of a framer. At this point, given the confirm-able roles in the game, the framer could only be an extremely select few people. The fact that he could know of the existence of a framer, and who that framer was targetting seemed like something only scum could know. At this point I was sure he was just feeding me bullshit, and trying to show how 'helpful' he was. I was fairly convinced he was scum.Keep in mind I did not know that supersoft was hider. I found out he was mafia by a process of elimination based on what deconduo told me (you can find what he told me in Chezinu family QT). deconduo told me in that chat that the best day 2 lynch would be prphlz or Greymist, so I assumed that meant that prphlz wasn't with him. That's why he was off my list. Everyone else was off the list and based on the numbers (as I told you) the remaining candidates were of the people who picked 1. Also that information should have been very relevant to you, and I'm kinda disappointed it wasn't. If I gave you that one of these 4 people is mafia, I thought you'd have information to further narrow it down (like heist being a cop or something). And considering that sinani was a BG I hoped you at least considered what I said after I flipped. To bugs, I can't find your post that I wanted to quote, but the reason I wasn't believing you when you were telling me things like, "hiro is innocent" was because you weren't presenting any proof other than "don't worry bro I'm sure he's green". Had you told me that he'd been checked by a DT (or made up some other excuse) then I would have believed you. Also you should see in my PMs to Radfield that at the end of the day I did trust you and believed what you said I consider my plan somewhat of a success. Had I not been shot night 2 I was relatively sure I'd have discovered some more mafia as I was at the anchor of discussion for the mafia families. I had a connection in the Tudors, the Lancaster's should have known I was mafia by my PMs to chaoser. When their situation became desperate and they needed to work together to win, I wanted to be the person the mafia would come to first, and I think I put myself in that position. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
"why would someone above 14 pick DF" "it's process of elimination I think there's only a couple people who can be DF" I'm surprised you didn't catch on. If you were town I figured you would've known that hiro was DF. You never caught on so I was left unsure whether or not it was a good idea to straight up tell you why hiro was town. | ||
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JimboSilvers
United Kingdom167 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22631 Posts
The lists I wrote on day 2, were mostly intended to put pressure and subtly manipulate. While most of the reads were something I believed at the time, they were still kinda off. I just randomly painted everyone who hadn't roleclaimed red, along with my strongest reads. I still can't believe Foolishness was town. Supersoft should have died night 2, I painted him green in the lists to make him think I trusted him. I was going to ask him to hide behind wiggles and then make sure we shot Wiggles. I told Mig of this plan, but it seems like Mig/Radfield simply forgot about it after Jackal killed me. Only reason prplhz was saved for one of the last is he claimed to have tried to pick dreamflower which was a very ballsy move. If Hiro hadn't picked dreamflower he'd have been hanged instantly. Claiming this early day 1 was really brave/stupid. Sandroba was kind of a weird case for us all, we kinda agreed that we'd just ignore him until we needed to. We didn't give him too much information, and we just knew his time would come, we had more important targets to kill at the time. The plan was to simply keep him out of the loop while we killed off more important targets, because we knew he couldn't really play anti-town or disrupt anything. I guess Jackal suiciding into me was kinda my fault, I was taunting him into doing it and finally he just decided to go for it. At the time I knew we'd easily clean up the rest of the mafia anyway, it was just a matter of elimination. The only mafia that really eluded us was Kenpachi, he was the only mafia I really thought was town. Anyway, I think PM games are interesting but I also think we've had too many recently. It's really annoying to play mafia in PM games so I'm glad I didn't have to deal with that. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 24 2011 00:21 chaoser wrote: We had checked Dec on Night one too so had me and cyber not died, we would have been in business, though I wish the rest of the mafia teams had more KP... With two other mafia teams to compete with, grabbing kp was furthering their goals more than your own, because they could defence up and be at an advantage because your defenceless while you slaughter the town. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 24 2011 19:25 prplhz wrote: I think that Cyber_Cheese has a very valid point that we also discussed in House Tudor before Meapak_Ziphh and deconduo went for Rock Star and Bulletproof, respectively. If you start fighting town then you will be at a disadvantage towards other scum teams who fight each other. We had a good shot at something like Extractor+Assassin, but we thought other scum teams would take that and then our defensive roles would give us a huge advantage. Shorten my name to Cheese I really really wanted to point this out during the picks, but I wasn't sure if I could make it look town to do it, or whether it makes me look scummy to consider mafia picks too much. | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On October 24 2011 18:22 Palmar wrote: Hey guys, some things I'd like to say about this game. The lists I wrote on day 2, were mostly intended to put pressure and subtly manipulate. While most of the reads were something I believed at the time, they were still kinda off. I just randomly painted everyone who hadn't roleclaimed red, along with my strongest reads. I still can't believe Foolishness was town. Supersoft should have died night 2, I painted him green in the lists to make him think I trusted him. I was going to ask him to hide behind wiggles and then make sure we shot Wiggles. I told Mig of this plan, but it seems like Mig/Radfield simply forgot about it after Jackal killed me. Only reason prplhz was saved for one of the last is he claimed to have tried to pick dreamflower which was a very ballsy move. If Hiro hadn't picked dreamflower he'd have been hanged instantly. Claiming this early day 1 was really brave/stupid. Sandroba was kind of a weird case for us all, we kinda agreed that we'd just ignore him until we needed to. We didn't give him too much information, and we just knew his time would come, we had more important targets to kill at the time. The plan was to simply keep him out of the loop while we killed off more important targets, because we knew he couldn't really play anti-town or disrupt anything. I guess Jackal suiciding into me was kinda my fault, I was taunting him into doing it and finally he just decided to go for it. At the time I knew we'd easily clean up the rest of the mafia anyway, it was just a matter of elimination. The only mafia that really eluded us was Kenpachi, he was the only mafia I really thought was town. Anyway, I think PM games are interesting but I also think we've had too many recently. It's really annoying to play mafia in PM games so I'm glad I didn't have to deal with that. Boom. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On October 24 2011 18:36 Cyber_Cheese wrote: With two other mafia teams to compete with, grabbing kp was furthering their goals more than your own, because they could defence up and be at an advantage because your defenceless while you slaughter the town. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 25 2011 02:48 syllogism wrote: That's a bad approach; there aren't that many defensive roles and scum aren't likely to end up with most of them. You've flexibility with KP roles, so you can aim at scum or town depending on the situation. Defensive roles only postpone the inevitable, especially if townies are doing the shooting. One of the teams going for vote rigger could have easily solved the DT as pardoner problem immediately as well. Defensive roles coincided with the town plan, and therefore don't make you look suspicious when seen. They also help you to avoid the kp aimed your way. It's easy to say mafia should have gone for kp as a townie, but when your that mafia team, the last thing you want to do it be the sucker family that acts as a stepping stone for the others to win. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
Besides, not like anyone followed a plan and if you get checked, you are generally dead anyway | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 25 2011 02:57 syllogism wrote: Going for GF at #6 is fine, I was mostly referring to the other picks, which were all around way too safe Besides, not like anyone followed a plan and if you get checked, you are generally dead anyway Like I said, from a townie point of view, mafia picks don't make that much sense. As a very loose example, put it in terms of 7 people, you are one of three mafioso, who all work alone. You'd be crazy to pick something like vig. Sure it hurts the town, but it leaves you too open. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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