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United States2186 Posts
Mafia don't need to get into contact with other families on a mafia to mafia basis to win. You just need to influence other people to do the dirty work. For example, influencing townies (talking on a townie to townie basis) to shoot or check people in the strongest family, or figuring out a mafia then talking to them as if on a townie/townie basis and making them think one of your biggest threats was also someone they should kill. The only people in the game who did this were the Chezinu family. I made it clear in the beginning that this was a game of intrigue and influence and could not be approached like a normal mafia game. It seems most people, townies included, did not approach it like that and paid the price (town got lucky on a lot of things though). Only proactive play could win it here.
Sandroba survived unscathed doing very little in the thread and having several people, particularly the Chezinu family, be very suspicious of him, just because he was able to manipulate the Radfield/Mig group enough. As Bugs said, in pm games its very easy for your thoughts to be influenced by others without you realizing it. That is the mafia objective here. If I got this right, Bugs ended up shooting Foolishness, who made an enormous impact for the town, because Sandroba (who Bugs didn't trust) influenced the official's group who influenced Bugs without any of them realizing the source.
Frankly, the town made itself wide open to manipulation with that awful idea of a public irc channel. Yet no mafia took advantage of this to plant their own ideas or make others look guilty. Obviously if every mafia family was plotting and trying to influence everyone else much of it would cancel each other out. Yet at the same time, that would create an atmosphere of chaos and uncertainty where it would be much harder for the town (and mafia to a lesser degree) to figure things out. In this game, the atmosphere was as clear as day which led to most mafia being really really obvious and the town had little trouble piecing things together without much interference.
Furthermore, mafia could have taken less conventional routes as well. Can you just imagine the chaos and gain if a mafia member had created their own family like Foolishness did? Given how much damage the Chezinu family did without any information advantage, a mafia controlled "5th party" could effectively control the game. And even if it collapsed at some point, it could only be traced back to one member. If you want to get really extreme, what if one family had two of its members create their own families so then you have a 4 person family turned into a giant apparatus that can coordinate and plant all kinds of thoughts and direct actions without more than one person being accountable.
Overall while the mafia being pushovers and the pm breadcrumbing definitely made it worse, I was pretty happy with some of the plays this game. You just don't get to see brilliant ideas like the Chezinu family in normal games.
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United States2186 Posts
On October 25 2011 07:12 Foolishness wrote:
I'd actually like to see this game again, except with more standard roles. That is, remove all the good roles (e.g. rockstar, joat, nra member, etc) and run this game with your more standard DTs, medics, Vets, vigis/hatters and perhaps a few other miscellaneous roles. The game would be less about roles and more about working together. Mafia would be forced to try to join forces and town would seek to interrupt that.
I could see this being interesting but as far as I can tell the good roles didn't even affect the game. NRA Member, Assassin, Jack, Janitor, Qatol, Veteran, Hero, King Maker, Vote Rigger, Framer, Meth Man are pretty much the bet roles yet none of them were picked. Of all the good roles that were picked, Rock Star was lynched, NKVD did ok but was roleswapped, Inventor only caused confusion, puppeteer did nothing. America, CPR Doctor, and Dreamflower did make huge impacts.
If such a format will be hosted again probably best to wait a long time as it is more of a 'once-in-a-awhile' type thing anyways.
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Sorry, late postgame coming up hopefully tomorrow. Being sick is never fun.
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Foolishness made no impact for town at all, regardless of what kind of information he had and how much effort he put into his operations. Chezinu family thing is intriguing, but you can't just have no thread presence and basically ignore townies completely and expect town not to get suspicious. Everyone except his circle of two (?) players thought he was scum, due to his nonexistent thread presence and some rather strange comments regarding the other town circle. Further, Sandroba had pretty much no influence on town; foolishness doomed himself. It's rather silly to suggest that Sandroba "survived unscathed" when town was lynching/killing scum pretty much at the fastest rate possible and once we ran out of obvious targets, we reconsidered sandroba.
Also, the town circle didn't use irc for anything and players mostly idled there or chatted about mostly inconsequential things.
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Syllo you called me unhelpful day 0 for calling you out on thinking sandro was town.
I told you I believed sandro's logic for thinking Mig was town was really bad and you basically said I was being anti-town. Regardless of what your circle thought of Foolishness, had more scum taken advantage of that rift between town factions like sandro did, we would've been in a lot of trouble.
Hopefully next time you don't rely on a cheap trick to try and confirm your good friends as being town, because that was honestly incredibly frustrating to deal with on day 0/1. You and sandro considered each other town for completely illogical and stupid reasons.
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On October 26 2011 17:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
Syllo you called me unhelpful day 0 for calling you out on thinking sandro was town.
I told you I believed sandro's logic for thinking Mig was town was really bad and you basically said I was being anti-town. Regardless of what your circle thought of Foolishness, had more scum taken advantage of that rift between town factions like sandro did, we would've been in a lot of trouble.
Hopefully next time you don't rely on a cheap trick to try and confirm your good friends as being town, because that was honestly incredibly frustrating to deal with on day 0/1. You and sandro considered each other town for completely illogical and stupid reasons.
No, I called you unhelpful because you were refusing to vote for Mig over Greymist even in the scenario that your least wanted candidate, radfield, was going to get elected anyway and in general were undermining our efforts to get a very likely townie and a DT elected. Greymist was a horrible candidate, which was one of the reasons we were suspicious of Foolishness, but you refused to budge, as is typical of you. I never considered sandroba "99%" town or anything close to that; me and mig were both incredibly suspicious of him early on. The suspicion only somewhat subsided because he became completely supportive of everything we did and didn't push for any scum objectives. This is because we pretty much cornered him by making it nearly impossible for him not to be convinced of our innocence. It's rather hilarious to see you suggest I'm frustrating to deal with, given your own quite earned reputation. As for illogical and stupid, well I'm not even going to touch that.
Note that I never gave Sandroba any information whatsoever.
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United States4714 Posts
The idea that sandroba influenced us to kill foolish is completely incorrect. For one thing sandroba was almost completely awol for the final 2 days. He was only active talking to us day1 then he disappeared. Pretty tough to influence people when you are never around. All sandroba influenced us about was not killing him by helping out day1.
Foolish contributed absolutely nothing that the town or anyone besides the 2 people he talked to could see. He did 0 scum hunting in thread, didn't build a single case against anyone, didn't do any analysis and barely pmd any of us at all. And when I did actually see logs of him talking to people he said ridiculous things like he thought radfield was town but wanted greymist as mayor, wtf? When I asked him for his opinions or any information he had gathered at all he said I didn't need to know and I could ask radfield to prove how helpful he had been. When I asked rad I was told that foolish hadn't been helpful at all.
What enormous impact did foolish make for the town? Jimbo caught chaoser/cheese then all the rest of the lynches/vig shots were organized by our circle. Foolish refused to give anyone besides the 2 people he talked to any information whatsoever and he never posted in thread. He didn't really impact anything that happened, besides the fact that he was so unhelpful that nearly everyone in the game was suspicious of him.
Concerning the public irc me/syllo/radfield barely used it and I would say it didn't really effect anything. Every game decision was made in private irc or skype.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On October 26 2011 04:38 Ver wrote:
Frankly, the town made itself wide open to manipulation with that awful idea of a public irc channel. Yet no mafia took advantage of this to plant their own ideas or make others look guilty. Obviously if every mafia family was plotting and trying to influence everyone else much of it would cancel each other out. Yet at the same time, that would create an atmosphere of chaos and uncertainty where it would be much harder for the town (and mafia to a lesser degree) to figure things out.
With 8 oppossing scum, I think there was a fine line with how much you could push others to look bad. Whenever you attempt to influence someone by making a player look guilty, you have to worry if you are presenting a case against that person's scum buddy. If you try to push a dt check or a vig shot on the wrong person, you could wake up the next day being shot as a threat. Ideally you would be trying to manipulate town, but with nearly half the game comprised of scum it becomes more difficult. Of the established town circles, they were difficult to infiltrate without some type of proof that you selected an information role or something that was extremely pro-town. I spoke with Radfield, Mig, and syllo on about 15 different occassions up to an hour before the lynch thinking chaoser would be lynched, only to find out in the day post that Node was the target.
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On October 26 2011 17:59 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 17:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
Syllo you called me unhelpful day 0 for calling you out on thinking sandro was town.
I told you I believed sandro's logic for thinking Mig was town was really bad and you basically said I was being anti-town. Regardless of what your circle thought of Foolishness, had more scum taken advantage of that rift between town factions like sandro did, we would've been in a lot of trouble.
Hopefully next time you don't rely on a cheap trick to try and confirm your good friends as being town, because that was honestly incredibly frustrating to deal with on day 0/1. You and sandro considered each other town for completely illogical and stupid reasons. No, I called you unhelpful because you were refusing to vote for Mig over Greymist even in the scenario that your least wanted candidate, radfield, was going to get elected anyway and in general were undermining our efforts to get a very likely townie and a DT elected. Greymist was a horrible candidate, which was one of the reasons we were suspicious of Foolishness, but you refused to budge, as is typical of you. I never considered sandroba "99%" town or anything close to that; me and mig were both incredibly suspicious of him early on. The suspicion only somewhat subsided because he became completely supportive of everything we did and didn't push for any scum objectives. This is because we pretty much cornered him by making it nearly impossible for him not to be convinced of our innocence. It's rather hilarious to see you suggest I'm frustrating to deal with, given your own quite earned reputation. As for illogical and stupid, well I'm not even going to touch that. Note that I never gave Sandroba any information whatsoever.
If you remember, I refused to vote for Mig when I didn't know why I felt like scum were voting for him and Radfield.
I wanted to know why you simply accepted Sandroba's reasoning for voting Mig. It was, if I remember correctly, something like "I think syllo is town therefore since syllo is voting Mig I think Mig is also town so I'll vote him."
I kept pushing that Radfield and Mig had scum voting them and we needed to find out why/who they were, so I decided to try pushing Greymist for mayor. I refused to budge (in terms of what I communicated to you) but if you remember I actually did vote Mig.
And of course I refused to budge on what I was telling you simply because I didn't like your circle very much at the time. Even night 2?, Radfield seemed to have trusted sandro, and that could have been a problem if we hadn't done so well with the other scum.
EDIT:
Also I have to say, you were the only one out of your circle who I felt that way about.
I felt completely fine with talking to Mig and Radfield, I just felt that they gave sandro too much slack.
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I had little to no impact late game and I honestly don't know how I could have done better, given the situation I put myself in.
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Yay I just realised I'm finally reversing my horrible losing trend, thats 3 wins on the trot :D
I think that's 5-5 now, probably time to retire
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On October 27 2011 03:46 sandroba wrote:
I had little to no impact late game and I honestly don't know how I could have done better, given the situation I put myself in.
Happy Birthday sandroba! :D
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On October 27 2011 03:50 DropBear wrote:
Yay I just realised I'm finally reversing my horrible losing trend, thats 3 wins on the trot :D
I think that's 5-5 now, probably time to retire
I'm not sure your allowed to count your smurf in LotR, Chaoser won that one 
Happy Birthday Sandro!
Rather than try to influence towns circle, I think the mafia groups should have started 'town circles' of their own. If a member gets caught, that's clearly the infiltrator.
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Wow first Me, then brownbear, then sandroba
October birthdays ftw
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On October 27 2011 03:46 sandroba wrote:
I had little to no impact late game and I honestly don't know how I could have done better, given the situation I put myself in.
Happy Birthday!
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Mig: A principal that I (and foolishness) hold to, is that people should be kept on a need to know basis. Period. I wouldn't have told you about chaoser and cheese if I was asked. The only reason why all the stuff I did got it's way over to you was because wbg leaked it (without our foreknowledge) to you. I was almost certain that you had scum in your circle, and I knew that you guys had loose lips. (Radfield especially, but even you leaking to Syllo, who leaked to radfield...eventually it get's to sandroba, and to his team.) I didn't trust the rad group to keep information secret, and besides that, it's a very good idea to keep people on a need to know basis. I contemplated not telling even the Chez group, but I decided to use it to test them. I was very suspicious of wbg when I found out that he had leaked to you (especially since he denied it).
I think that a common theme among everyone this game was not realizing how deep the implications for a simple action went. Like wbg telling one person about the cheese thing, leading to 8 people knowing about it.
Did you think that foolishness was mafia, because he was acting like mafia, or because he wasn't acting like a townie?
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On October 26 2011 16:14 Protactinium wrote:
Sorry, late postgame coming up hopefully tomorrow. Being sick is never fun.
Word.
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United States4714 Posts
Ok kav so you kept all the information secret and what good did it do the town? Did it help in anyway whatsoever? You guys did not establish your innocence so everyone was suspicious of you. So even if you had good reads it wouldn't make much of a difference because most of the town would have ignored you. You then died and absolutely none of your work mattered. And in fact we wasted a vig shot and check on you instead. I am fine with keeping certain things secret but foolish was also completely gone from the thread, you need to give the town some way to actually know you are town or nothing you do will matter in anyway.
Explain to me why it is so incredibly important to keep everything secret when nothing is accomplished by it and it leads the town to suspect you.
And I thought foolishness play looked very much like mafia. We had logs where he said Radfield, one of the best players on TL, was probably town but he didn't want him mayor. Instead he pushed for greymist to be mayor, a new player that would be easy to manipulate and is absolutely 0 threat to the mafia. I mean even if you are worried about rad talking too much who cares? It isn't like he still won't catch scum just through his analysis, why wouldn't your protect him?
Along with that he didn't strongly push for any of his opinions, didn't do any scum hunting and was instead content to sit back and coast by while other people were active. So he contributed absolutely nothing and pushed for an election which was horrible for town.
I know everyone likes complex schemes and setting traps but the most important thing any townie can do is to make it obvious that they are actually town. In the end this game was really just about process of elimination and we killed everyone who hadn't either A) been dt checked or B) made it really obvious they were town. And foolish didn't do anything at all to show he was town.
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I denied leaking the information because I was in a very awkward situation.
I was confident Mig was some sort of DT, so I felt he needed to know certain things. I didn't tell him much, just what I felt was necessary (at first). I was highly suspicious of sandro and I knew that, regardless of alignment, Radfield wouldn't be a good person to tell things because of his connection to sandro. However I was confident that Mig was town and I gave him information that I knew he would find useful.
I chose to deny leaking that information even though Mig gave me away by telling syllo (god damn it) because I was being persuaded that Foolish was untrustworthy. At the time I was very torn; I felt the same way I felt in XLV. I was in contact with two town circles, neither of which trusted the other. That's an incredibly weird situation to be in.
In Mig's defense I knew that if he had some info he would find it useful. I never gave him everything, just what I thought was necessary. I did not tell him about decon or anything really that wasn't concrete until I was sure it was safe to get that information out.
In the end no harm came from it because I was able to confirm sandro and prpl as scum even before they were checked. We even more or less caught Kenpachi; I flirted with the idea of contacting him but Mig warned against it on the final night.
Overall if I had to do it again I would definitely leak that information again. I routinely narrowly missed being shot by scum every night and I managed to get town valuable information at the same time. I regret shooting foolish, but ultimately that didn't turn out to be that harmful. In the future I'll hopefully learn to balance my own opinions with those of others (I had opposite problems this game and in XLV; in XLV my opinions were consistently wrong so I came into this game with the expectation that I would be wrong right away)
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On October 27 2011 08:15 Kavdragon wrote:
Mig: A principal that I (and foolishness) hold to, is that people should be kept on a need to know basis. Period. I wouldn't have told you about chaoser and cheese if I was asked. The only reason why all the stuff I did got it's way over to you was because wbg leaked it (without our foreknowledge) to you. I was almost certain that you had scum in your circle, and I knew that you guys had loose lips. (Radfield especially, but even you leaking to Syllo, who leaked to radfield...eventually it get's to sandroba, and to his team.) I didn't trust the rad group to keep information secret, and besides that, it's a very good idea to keep people on a need to know basis. I contemplated not telling even the Chez group, but I decided to use it to test them. I was very suspicious of wbg when I found out that he had leaked to you (especially since he denied it).
I think that a common theme among everyone this game was not realizing how deep the implications for a simple action went. Like wbg telling one person about the cheese thing, leading to 8 people knowing about it.
Did you think that foolishness was mafia, because he was acting like mafia, or because he wasn't acting like a townie?
I don't actually care about principles, people have the responsibility to establish themselves as town to fellow townies. The circle was the most powerful entity in the game so every townie should do anything in their power to make sure the circle knows they're town.
I failed because jackal always thinks I'm scum, but it's much worse in the case of someone like foolishness who basically ignored the thread for the most part, he was actually a liability to town this game (something I've never seen from him, usually he's one of the best players).
I was a bit of a liability too, because I got sidetracked in my gotta catch 'em all pokemon hunt for roles, and stupidly aggressive behavior which ended in me getting killed. The victory is all radfield's, syllo's and mig's. Various other players contributed, but they were in the middle of things with powerful picks and good communication.
The game doesn't adapt to you, you have to adapt to the game. This is something I have massive trouble with, and many vets can't seem to understand. I failed town in XLIV, what good is calling out almost the entire mafia team, when everyone thinks you're scum? And it's the same deal with vets. The game changes constantly, and when people expect to come in and play it in one way and it ends up being different, it's their job to adapt.
Anyway, I had a lot of fun, I'm sorry if I stepped on any toes. Smurfing sucks btw.
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EPT
