EPTPick Your Power Interesting! - Page 80
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Mafia not going for KP or vote rigging roles was rather dumb. Tudor house had picks 1 and 4 and they chose RS/BP. Those are really dumb picks IMO. rockstar as #1 draft pick basically gives you away because there are two players who instantly know what you are. Had meapak picked NRA or some sort of other role instead he would've been in a really good position. Take inventor, for example. If he had inventor and decon took vote rigger meapak would be immune to the lynch the next day. He could then get two inventions off and give his team a HUGE advantage. Then imagine that the third scum on their team went for something like witch, medic, or doctor; they could use their ability on n2 to save meapak from a shot. The inventions could be anything and it would completely screw over town and the other teams. Decon being BP was also unexpected since it's really pretty useless when you're the #1 lynch candidate. He was in a great position to just lead town to lynching other scum but he was so scummy we just lynched him day 2 (or nukes I don't remember, we basically had a double lynch everyday) | ||
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On October 25 2011 04:15 wherebugsgo wrote: Mafia not going for KP or vote rigging roles was rather dumb. Well from our perspective, saving one of our own would have had to be equivalent to 4-5 kp to keep the ratios the same. In a setup where survival was so important, obtaining extra kp wasn't a top priority. If we had realize the vote rigger could be used to rig the mayor election, we probably would have selected it. Otherwise, controlling the lynch isn't as powerful since for every 1 lynch kp, there is a ton more night kp to worry about. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On October 25 2011 05:59 kitaman27 wrote: Well from our perspective, saving one of our own would have had to be equivalent to 4-5 kp to keep the ratios the same. In a setup where survival was so important, obtaining extra kp wasn't a top priority. If we had realize the vote rigger could be used to rig the mayor election, we probably would have selected it. Otherwise, controlling the lynch isn't as powerful since for every 1 lynch kp, there is a ton more night kp to worry about. Right, but look at what happened: Townies had almost all the KP and scum elected two DTs into office. Voterigger could have been used to save one of the lynches and turn it into a lynch of Mig, for example. Or double lynch (when each day almost all the votes were on one player) so that one or two townies die. If your scumbuddy is getting lynched day 2 or day 3 or whatever, voterigger uses his double lynch and the guy getting lynched puts his vote on Radfield. WAY more powerful than puppeteer, or hider (rofl most scum role in the game), or RS, or NKVD. Saying you didn't know how the roles worked isn't really an excuse, since you could've just PMed Ver or Incog and asked. The fact that mafia didn't do their research on the roles is pretty clear, since Kenpachi picked NKVD on the assumption that it would give him the entire family in one shot (wtf lol) EDIT: And I don't know what exactly the defensive roles accomplish from your perspective. You KNOW you're fighting with town on getting those defensive roles. The vote altering and KP roles will be less competitive, naturally. KP and vote altering roles make your setup more flexible. You can choose who you want to kill every night and you can save yourselves from being lynched by the town/manipulate the lynch to ensure victory. Janitor would've been a great choice too, that would've caused a ton of chaos in a game of information. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 25 2011 03:28 syllogism wrote: It's not a townie point of view, we probably spent more time theorycrafting scum setups before the game than townie ones. Obviously the plans have to be adjusted according to draft order, but expecting other teams to do everything for you is a mistake. You factored their setups as a town vs mafia one, you completely left out the mafia vs mafia ones. Sure all the mafias could have gone on the offensive, but playing it safe in a game where 2 kp could be aimed at 25% of you every night seemed like a better idea at the time. Even more so if the other factions had more than 2 kp combined. As an aside- I'm amazed so many people were willing to role claim when there was a potential assassin... we might as well have assigned every pick... People were just lucky those were townies acting scummy and not real scum. Edit: Happy Birthday Greymist! | ||
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On October 25 2011 06:17 wherebugsgo wrote: Saying you didn't know how the roles worked isn't really an excuse, since you could've just PMed Ver or Incog and asked. The fact that mafia didn't do their research on the roles is pretty clear Hmm? It wasn't an excuse, it was an oversight. Properly coordinating the picks was much more difficult than one would expect. We never knew if sinani was going to show up so that effectively limits our plans to 3 picks. Node had 1-2 posts in the quicktopic, but we never had the opportunity to discuss much with him, so he was pretty much on his own selecting America. sandroba and I spoke briefly at the beginning of the day, but we never were able to get in touch to actually coordinate picks near the end. I submitted role swapper, not quite knowing what my scumbuddies were even taking. On October 25 2011 06:17 wherebugsgo wrote: EDIT: And I don't know what exactly the defensive roles accomplish from your perspective. You KNOW you're fighting with town on getting those defensive roles. The vote altering and KP roles will be less competitive, naturally. KP and vote altering roles make your setup more flexible. You can choose who you want to kill every night and you can save yourselves from being lynched by the town/manipulate the lynch to ensure victory. To be fair, we didn't select any defensive roles, but I still think they are better than kp :p Its easy to say we should have picked vote rigger after learning it wasn't picked, but I think it was just as likely to result in a clash as a vet or medic at 23. Saving yourself from a lynch is only going to do so much. Nothing stops you from getting shot or lynched the next day. You could save somebody else, but that also just absorbs 1 kp not being potentially aimed at you. Obviously dealing with the elected dts would have been nice, but we chose to go the godfather route (unsuccessfully) | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 25 2011 07:12 Foolishness wrote: I'd actually like to see this game again, except with more standard roles. That is, remove all the good roles (e.g. rockstar, joat, nra member, etc) and run this game with your more standard DTs, medics, Vets, vigis/hatters and perhaps a few other miscellaneous roles. The game would be less about roles and more about working together. Mafia would be forced to try to join forces and town would seek to interrupt that. Give each of the mafias a puppet used by all members, disable pm's. The puppets are allowed to pm people and people can reply only to puppet pms, not pm them of their own accord, thus giving scum a potential communications outlet. That would be interesting IMO. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 25 2011 08:45 wherebugsgo wrote: If only scum had puppets why would anyone ever reply to them? Because you don't always want to work against some scum teams more than others. Why reply to any puppet at all? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On October 25 2011 08:45 wherebugsgo wrote: If only scum had puppets why would anyone ever reply to them? Scum would reply to work together or gain information Town would reply to see if scum would slip and let out any information. I'd say let people PM the puppets, though, like what I said. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 25 2011 09:07 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Scum would reply to work together or gain information Town would reply to see if scum would slip and let out any information. I'd say let people PM the puppets, though, like what I said. I say no PM'ing puppets because puppets PM'ing each other means town can't push puppets for information nearly as easily. What if the rule was 'Puppets can't pm each other'? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On October 25 2011 09:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I say no PM'ing puppets because puppets PM'ing each other means town can't push puppets for information nearly as easily. What if the rule was 'Puppets can't pm each other'? Another solution would be to give each mafia family it's own puppet, but the puppets can't actually PM each other, only players in the game. This will give mafia a way to contact and blackmail each other, and lets town try to pose as mafia to the puppet to gain information. You could give mayor a puppet too, maybe. :p (I like puppets) And let people PM the puppets, which I meant, but didn't explicitly write. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Giving every scumteam a puppet is kinda weird. I don't think town stands to gain anything when they know they're talking to a scum. Maybe take out PMs entirely and add a couple roles that have one shot PM abilities, but not so sure about the puppet business (does it really belong in a PYP anyway?) | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On October 25 2011 09:16 Mr. Wiggles wrote: And let people PM the puppets, which I meant, but didn't explicitly write. Oh, well I fail. Tis a great idea then  | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Either give mafia a form of safe communication, like puppets, or take out free PMs and introduce anonymous PM roles that mafia can pick if they want to use diplomacy or communicate. In this set-up, I can't think of any good ways of contacting and actually being able to effectively work with other scum families besides a role like puppeteer paired with a DT, or just claiming scum openly and hoping people will contact you, which you could then check and verify to be scum, or hand out an anonymous QT, or something like that. If someone PMs you claiming to be scum, and that they think you are scum, you're never going to give them any information because there's a high likelihood they're just town fishing for information. If you PM someone claiming to be scum, then if they're actually scum, they'll think the same, or if they're town, they'll be more suspicious of you. I can't really think of a good way to contact other scum families in an open PM set-up like this, where you can actually work together. Open PMs lets town coordinate a lot more, and set up safe-guards for trying to fake-claim scum, and makes it so that anyone can PM you, and thus you must be suspicious of everyone. In a game where scum are meant to coordinate and use politics, there wasn't really a good outlet for them to do so. Like I said, the only ways I see, is use of the puppet, or claiming scum if you're outed by a DT or about to be lynched, or if you picked Hero or something in conjunction with a protective role. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
The exception to this was Palmar, I just couldn't tell what he was and for a while I thought he was scum. Knowing that, why didn't you guys just PM people and see what you thought? Once you get in a situation where you claim scum, either they play along or they ditch/out you. If you get outed in the thread, and you have said reasonably "pro-town" things behind the scenes to well established town players, you'll be fine. Example: sandro. Sandro's crutch was that he wasn't doing enough scheming with other scum. He was mostly stuck in the town circle. For me, most of my opinions about players were rather accurate, but I was having problems discerning my own opinions from the opinions of others. If scum are good about it they can all push subtle agendas through different avenues and different players. Eventually people will start thinking things without actually knowing the genesis of the idea. Sandro pulled this very effectively with Rad/Mig to make them think Foolish and Jimbo were scummier than they really were. I don't think mafia did as much as they could have done with the PMs. I'm not a fan of PMs, but there's no real room here to say that you didn't have a reliable form of communication with other scum if you didn't actually try very hard. You, wiggles, were almost never in IRC, for one. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Don't you see that with: Knowing that, why didn't you guys just PM people and see what you thought? Once you get in a situation where you claim scum, either they play along or they ditch/out you. If you get outed in the thread, and you have said reasonably "pro-town" things behind the scenes to well established town players, you'll be fine. Example: sandro. You can't really accomplish anything, or anything you can accomplish will take several cycles to happen?If you contact another player claiming scum, their first assumption will almost always be that you're town. There's no reason to believe otherwise, and to do so would be idiocy, unless you have an alignment check or something, and even then you should be wary. So, that means that you're stuck in a situation where you have to play coy with them and straddle the line between "I'm really town" and "I'm scum" in your communications. You can't drop enough details to confirm yourself, because then there's the potential you gave away information to town and confirmed yourself as scum, or you gave them something to blackmail you with with nothing in return. So, you can either both play along and play footsies, without actually accomplishing anything concrete besides dropping little hints at each other for fear that your counter-part is town, or you can outright claim, and run the risk that you're going to get screwed for it, when preservation of your team is more important than cooperation with the other mafia families. "Pro-town" safeguards don't work, because then you're posing as town, and thus can't start any other communications once you've been outed. No mafia will trust you again. So, sure it might save you from a lynch, for a day or two, but it stops all possibility of forming a connection personally. Basically, all scum are going to keep up the pretense of being town in PM, so that they have an out if they get outed in thread or the person they're talking to is town. This stops any real effective communication, unless you feel like gambling. No mafia to my knowledge felt like gambling this game, and so no communication between families was established. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
3/4 of the scum in this game did next to nothing in PMs. You won't know until you try; I didn't see you trying very hard lol | ||
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