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Erandorr
2283 Posts
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
This game was all about PMs and real-time chat. Honestly, at this point I feel chat like Skype/IRC are much much more powerful for town than PMs, and PMs are already a huge advantage for town. Several players I was fairly convinced were town based on my interactions in skype. Was I fooled by Sandro? Absolutely. But I talked very little with Sandro after day 1, and certainly didn't trust him enough to give him the important information. He knew the roles of me/mig/syllo, but that was pretty much it. Simply from the kills that York chose you can see he was mainly in the dark as he never knew Dreamflower, CPR Doc, bodyguards, etc. Also, my conversations with Sandroba went down precipitously as the game went on, Day 0 we talked alot, but by Day 2/Night 2 we were basically not talking at all. Honestly Sandro, I think you could have gleaned a lot more info from me had you pushed for it. I don't really think I'm very good at PM games though, as I am far too trusting out-of-thread and far too willing to trust roleclaims. For instance Sandro got mad at me Day 1 for not following his plan, yet I didn't even realize till days later that Sandro did not follow his plan either, and that his claim of going for Rockstar didn't make sense at all(not to mention he knew it was a safe claim, given he was the rockstar). By the time I figured this out, Sandro was basically already narrowed down to being scum, so it didn't matter. Here's how things played out in general from my perspective. Day 0 I was fairly convinced Sandro was town. Originally I thought he looked pretty scummy, just based on the brevity of his plan in-thread. After talking with him though, I felt he looked quite town and I felt his plan would actually work pretty well. Ironic that he clashed with another scum player in his role selection(GF). Though it seemed like day -1 and day 0 were about plans etc, it was really about establishing activity levels and feeling players out. Day 1 was all about pushing for mayor for me. I had gotten Bullet Bill, and knew I could be a powerful force if elected. My original thought was that I could investigate my bodyguards(who should be vanilla) and if they had a gun then they were certainly scum. Turned out that strat was never necessary, but it was my original thought(though killing ones own BGs is somewhat counter-productive) I sent over 100 PMs this game, and on Day 1 I was pushing every single player I knew to vote for me. Sandroba, Mig and Syllo were all pushing for Mig to be elected, and by the time I got started he was already ahead. I knew if I sat back and just waited I could very well not get elected. So I got busy with direct PMs: Kitaman, Foolishness, Meapak, Scamp, Deconduo, prplhz, Node, Jimbo, Bumatlarge, as well as discussions with Heist, Hiro and Errandor who all came to me. Of the players I PMed, 6 of 9 were scum, but that didn't really matter. If I gave them a good reason to vote for me, and scum hate going against a good reason. Eventually 8 of the 13 players voting for me were scum  I was working for the last 11 of 12 hours of Day 1, so by the time I got home I had very little time to figure out who to lynch. Chaoser was the absolute consensus at that point, as basically every single player i talked to wanted him lynched. With him claiming both medic and busy IRL(and I always like to give busy IRL people a second chance) he was basically off the table in my eyes. If he really was a medic, scum would likely shoot him anyways. So this left me grasping for a new lynch. I had to find a general consensus, since if I didn't lynch Chaoser and instead hit a townie I was going to lose a lot of credibility. I had about 5 convos going at once and it eventually settled on being Heist or Node. Originally I sent in Heist, but after re-reviewing my PMs with node, I felt he was the better option. I rechecked all my ongoing skype convos, and 4 out of 5 were good with node(only chaoser wanted heist). Here is the PM convo, starting at the bottom: + Show Spoiler + Well, Meapak claimed his role in the thread. So presumably the information is there for those looking Mig, Syllo and Sandro are doing an extremely poor job of creating thread presence. I posted my thoughts on them in the thread, and have had extensive conversations with Sandro and Mig, though mostly Sandro. In fact, Sandro would be my strongest town read right now, but he is doing a poor job explaining himself in thread. He's taking an approach of "how could you townies be so dumb as to think i am scum", which is obviously a bad approach. That being said, he is one of the people i would LEAST like to see killed. Right now both Chaoser and Wiggles seem a little off to me. Neither are making a very strong show of actually wanting mayor. After Jimbo posted his big posts today, I felt fairly certain that he was scum, given the way he backpedalled off of both me and sandro. Casting suspicion on me and then apologizing, building a case against Sandro(and running on a platform of lynch sandro) and then claiming his intent was not to paint Sandro as scum.....? I also do not trust meapak, which is part of the reason I wanted to have him make a Police Radio. It is a known quantity, and can't be exploited or hide his scum team. He seems to be uninterested in the Police Radio, and is trying to brainstorm other possibilities. Keep on thinking of good inventions. I plan on bullying meapak into creating whatever invention is most fittingly pro-town, as I simply don't trust him fully right now. Original Message From Node: First off, I was not aware that Meapak was Inventor. You may wish to be careful with that information in the future. I'm thinking either yourself or Jimbo are going to get my mayor vote. I'm iffy on the whole Mig / syllo / whoever else is somehow "confirmed innocent" (because, well, they aren't) -- I'd rather vote for the people that actually look to have their head on straight in-thread. I'm pretty supportive of the "lynch sandroba" platform, considering that his retorts towards various accusations have ranged from ad-hominem to spouting "his words are being distorted" as a first line of defense. In your opinion, do any of the mayoral candidates look particularly scummy? The police radio is pretty damn good, but I'd consider holding on to it until we have a better idea of the number of detectives out there. A good invention fits the circumstances -- a good inventor won't just make the "most OP" item, but come up with whatever helps the town the most at the time. When I invented it, it served more than one purpose. In addition to showing everyone the DT checks, it confirmed that a few people weren't lying about their roles (most notably GM about being the vote checker). At the time, people were saying Inventor should just make bulletproof vests and be done with it. Fuck that shit. However, I'm not sure what a "better" invention would be right now. Information is definitely key -- maybe something that reveals every role that got taken, so we know what to look out for? It could also semi-confirm any early roleclaims. I will definitely think on it some more. I'm actually kind of worried about confirming townies with the police radio. With its incarnation in PYP:I, it broadcasted everything in-thread. I worry that so early in the game, it would serve to give the mafia good targets more than anything else. Of course, I'm assuming that our DTs mainly check townies. I dunno, I just think it could have negative consequences at this point. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Radfield: What are your thoughts on the mayor race? Who are you considering voting for? I could use your support, as I think it is key I gain the protection of the elected roles. I also intend on pressuring Meapak into inventing a police radio for tomorrow, as I think it is the single best invention we can get. Anything which can confirm townies en masse is huge for us. I'd like you to rack your brain though, and see if you can figure out an invention that would work even better in this particular set-up. The main things that tipped me here were a) He was not reading the thread very carefully b)He spent more time talking about inventions then the game c) He never finds a good invention, only naysays the Police Radio d) He never responded to me, and never thought up a good invention. I was most certainly NOT sure Node was scum, and any case I had against him was flimsy at best. However he was the better pick than Heist, and town got extremely lucky that he was America. In one fell swoop, we removed America from scum, and handed it to town(Scamp). Massive break for town. Prp was also on the table for a while, but at some point Hiro roleclaimed to me which meant prp was either extremely lucky, or had actually gone for Dreamflower. No chance I was lynching a player who had gone for dreamflower. Night 1 Hiro had contacted me and roleclaimed Dreamflower to me, and I kept that information secret. Since Jimbo had confirmed Chaoser as scum, I spent most of the day chatting with Chaoser trying to glean his thoughts. With 2 town KP known, and two town DTs known, me and Mig were able to organize extremely effectively. I didn't know the CPR doc, and Mig didn't know dreamflower, and that was the way we wanted it. End result was two dead scum(Chaoser and Cheese), one scum caught(Meapak), and one confirmed town power role(Scamp). Day 2 After the Day post(3 dead scum) town was in a great position. Once Ken outted Deconduo, and he was nuked, we were in an amazing position, because I still had the Meapak red result. We felt the best way was to try and get the thread going, and generate some discussion, as opposed to just outting the DT check. Our thought was that scum would absolutely not want to lynch Meapak, and would turn to another player like WBG or Sandro instead. As it turns out we DID catch someone trying to do this(prplhz), but I was too caught up in him being confirmed dreamflower(or really lucky ) to notice it. The other scum basically avoided the bait, but so be it. At this point everyone was basically sure Wiggles was scum, but we had Meapak so there was no rush.By the end of Day 2, with 6 scum dead, America/CPR/DF/BB/DT all in town hands, we were feeling pretty untouchable. This was my list of scum at that point: Wiggles, Jimbo, Foolish, Supersoft, Jacuzzi, Sinani Then: Heist, Kenpachi, WBG, Sandroba Then the dreamflowers: prplhz, Greymist, Errandor Night 2Heist had claimed Parity Cop at this point, so the thought was to have Mig check heist, and heist check Jacuzzi. I would check Jimbo, and we would shoot Wiggles(certainly scum) and Foolish(very likely scum). There were several reasons I thought Foolish was scum. *His general inactivity from my point of view. He was claiming he was very active, yet from what I could tell, and the players I spoke with, he was actually doing very little. Of course this is because he was working in scum circles, and I was working in town circles. *His mayoral vote was very suspicious. On one hand he was telling several players he thought I was likely town, yet on the other hand he was telling different players that it was essential I not get elected. This was part of his response to me asking him why he was pushing Greymist: Why is "giving something to the town" so important? Are you still acting like this is any other game of mafia? The elected positions are not about finding someone who is not scum, and they are not about finding someone who will scum hunt the best. *Most of my suspicion however came from direct dealing with him however. Foolish kept dripping me tidbits of mostly unimportant info, or info I already knew, and claiming to other players to 'ask Radfield how helpful he was being'. It seemed he was trying to pump me for information, while giving me what I felt was fairly irrelevant or already known info. -He wanted to know how Cheese died(Asking about townside KP in my eyes. Not to mention I already suspected Foolish of being Lancaster, so in my mind this was asking how his buddy died.) -He told me Tudors had killed Kitaman(Something that was irrelevant to me as I already assumed one of the other scum teams had killed him. This actually made me more suspicious as I couldn't see why a townie would really care which scum killed a different scum, so why did he think it was important i knew?) -Asked me about Hiro's alignment, specifically not his role, just alignment.(Fishing for DF in my eyes. I already knew that by process of elimination, Dreamflower could only possibly be one of a few players, since prp had publicly claimed he went for DF. Foolish seemed like he was trying to make it look like an innocent question by stressing only alignment, when in fact a simple answer from me would confirm him as dreamflower) - Told me Deconduo was 100% Tudor scum. (Keep in mind this is AFTER Kenpachi had already posted this in the thread, so I was honestly a bit confused as to why Foolish thought he was even being helpful with this tidbit. However it did show me Foolish wasn't properly reading the thread, since he didn't know KP had revealed Decons family, nor did he even realize NKVD could do this) These were pretty much the four items we discussed, and all four made me think Foolish was scum, though I see now that from his point of view they wouldn't have seemed so scummy. Palmar had also had a convo in which it seemed Foolish had basically claimed scum:http://pastebin.com/jNR7xVau In fact they were both pretty much fishing each other.... This is the PM I recieved from Foolish the night he was killed: Since you're not on skype I'll give you some of what I've found out so far. It wasn't my intention to give this to you so late in the night. supersoft is a Tudor. I say this with a 100% probability attached. The remaining Tudor is of the people who picked 1 as their first number (heist, Erandorr, Jaccuzi, sinani, and myself, to be scientifically correct). Also Jimbo is getting framed tonight. This was supposed to be the big relevation of information he was going to give me, in case he was killed. Supersoft was basically already 90% for sure scum to me given that he had claimed hider, and given his in-thread actions, and more importantly given the list. He also mentions the remaining Tudor is one of 5 players..... so big deal. Lastly is the mention of a framer. At this point, given the confirm-able roles in the game, the framer could only be an extremely select few people. The fact that he could know of the existence of a framer, and who that framer was targetting seemed like something only scum could know. At this point I was sure he was just feeding me bullshit, and trying to show how 'helpful' he was. I was fairly convinced he was scum.My suspicions of Jimbo were far less certain. By his in-thread actions and talking with him in PMs he seemed town, however he had a couple strikes against him: *A confirmed scum dropped inventor to him. *He did not make an invention Night 1 When I spoke to him on Night 2, I told him it was essential for him to give the invention to me or Mig, and that it was essential he give us a dayvig shot. My reasoning was that we did not need investigative inventions, since we already had scum quite narrowed down. What we needed was KP to eliminate them. A dayvig would have given us that ability, as well as hold us accountable at the same time since it is entirely public knowledge. For me or mig to abuse it would have been very difficult if one of us was scum and the other was not. Also, giving an invention to any other player ran the risk of that player being shot, whereas Me and Mig were assured protection. Jimbo refused, and I told him point blank that I would lynch him the next day if he did not comply. With that he kinda agreed, but then came back 5 minutes later and said Protact would not allow a dayvig bullet as an invention, because it was 'too public'. I thought this smelled like BS, so I PMed protact asking if a nuke was an acceptable invention. Protact said yes, so I pushed Jimbo to invent a nuke, telling him Protact would accept it. At this point he did an about face, and basically told me that being so bossy was no way to get compliance. To me this seemed like a complete about face: First he was ok with a dayvig but then it wasn't allowed, the moment I found him an alternative he changed his tune. Eventually he agreed to a nuke, but refused to give it me or Mig. At this point I was sure he was scum, as he was acting so illogically in regards to his invention. Once Bill Murray was invented, it was obvious to me that he was not pro-town, as no pro-town player would make something like that. Day 3 Several things contributed to the added confusion regarding House Chezinu, and the thought that Jimbo/Foolish were scum in disguise. Obviously the main one for me was that I felt Jimbo/foolish WERE scum, and that if they weren't my spreadsheet couldn't fit 5 more scum. However, I also received my Bullet Bill check 12 hours late, when everyone else got their checks back right away. The OP was also not updated to show how many players were left on each team. These two things made it feel like the mods agreed to let Jimbo/Foolish flip random, but not quite sure how to approach the ramifications of that decision. Once Jimbo and Foolish were flipped as town, we could basically narrow down the options: Assuming no framer: Mig/Radfield/WBG had all killed or participating directly in killing members of each team Heist, Scamp, Jacuzzi had all been checked Prp, Greymist, Errandor all went for dreamflower Hiro was confirmed dreamflower, and had followed his shots. Sandro, Kenpachi had nothing confirming them but gut reads Supersoft and Sinani were almost surely scum by process of elimination, as it would be very difficult to keep finding scum among the confirmed players. A Framer could have messed things up, but Framer was very unlikely to be at the bottom of the draft list. It's possibly Jacuzzi was the Framer and framed Heist, and Heist faked his parity cop check, but unlikely . Night 3Once Super and Sinani both flipped scum, we were in the clear. We had 3 investigations and 2 KP, so that was pretty much GG even if only one had flipped scum. Just like PYPInsane, this game was almost over by the time role selections and mayor picks were done. Scum again avoided many of the best scum roles, either for fear of rolechecks, or fear of overlapping. After Night 1 flipped, and certainly by the time I revealed Meapak had been checked, scum needed to gamble and team up. If they just went their own way, they would surely be torn apart by town, which is exactly what happened. The Night 2 kills overlapped on Syllo(vanilla) and took out Jimbo, a player likely to be lynched. If they had teamed up and co-operated, town still loses an all out KP race at that point. Co-ordinate their shots to kill Scamp and Bugs, and begin to eliminate Dreamflower and Bodyguard candidates. Eventually they would have to fight amongst each other again, but they needed to severely cripple town first. Town: Jimbo - Inventor Mig - Detective WBG - CPR Doc Scamp - Copycat Syllo - Vanilla Radfield - Bullet Bill Hiro - Dreamflower Dropbear - Bomber Man Bum - Vanilla Arctocod - Ace Jackal - Ackbar Greymist - Vanilla Foolishness - Vanilla Heist - Parity Cop Erandorr - Vanilla Jacuzzi - Vanilla 6 great roles, 4 decent roles, 6 vanilla Tudor Meapak - Rockstar Decon - Bulletproof Supersoft - Hider prplhz - Vanilla All defense all the time. I certainly understand the strategy, but I think with picks 1/4/16/18 they could have done much better. Soooo many good options. Taking something like NRA at #1, Assassin at #4, capitalist/rolecop at #16, etc. I think in this setup defensive roles were good for town, but only so-so for mafia. Lancaster Kenpachi - NKVD Cyber - Godfather Wiggles - Medic Chaoser - Pupeteer Good roles if they hadn't been decimated. I think Kenpachi should have used NKVD to connect with other teams though. Not to buy town cred, especially since two of his team were dead. York Sandroba - vanilla Node - America Kitaman - Role Swapper Sinani - Vanilla 2 good roles despite low picking slots Anyways, great fun this game, though I'll admit we got lazy at the end. Big thanks to all the hosts for putting this on, PYP is so much fun. I'll edit any mistakes i've made later. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
Lancaster Kenpachi - NKVD Cyber - Godfather Wiggles - Medic Chaoser - Pupeteer Good roles if they hadn't been decimated. I think Kenpachi should have used NKVD to connect with other teams though. Not to buy town cred, especially since two of his team were dead. We had checked Dec on Night one too so had me and cyber not died, we would have been in business, though I wish the rest of the mafia teams had more KP... | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I wanted to claim York to prpl and hope you hadn't told himyour house lol. I was going to change that picture I gave you. Also Kav these are the reasons I was okay with shooting Foolish: 1.) At the time there were six scum left. I knew supersoft couldn't be shot. Kenpachi we thought, for the time being, was town. Prpl we thought, for the time being, was town. (though I was suspicious as hell tbh) Wiggles was the DF shot. Jackal, who we thought was scum, had flipped town. Palmar also flipped town. Sinani was being ignored because he always sucks. That left sandroba/foolishness and to me, the dilemma was which normally pro-town player do I shoot? 2.) I am not as experienced as Mig/Radfield and so I was more inclined to believe their arguments for Foolish being scum than sandroba being scum. Yeah, I should've gone with my gut, but in my position, with the level of uncertainty that there was, I felt like shooting sandroba and having him flip town would instantly put me on the suspicion list. That would have been bad. (ofc he wouldn't have flipped town) 3.) foolish was genuinely doing some scummy things, even in conversations with me. Whenever we were talking about scumteams he would put in 4-5 players that I told him were (almost) confirmed town. He kept listing Erandor, hiro, ON, (and later heist) when I kept saying those players were almost certain to be town. Even after I had insisted it several times he continued to list them, which was weird because it seemed as if he just wasn't listening or was being purposely vague. as a result all of the things foolish did day 2, we already had known through other means. We received no new info through foolish and that was strange. What I just recently found out was that sandro was pushing Foolish and Jimbo to be Scum really hard to Radfield. Since I didn't trust sandro I didn't know where the suspicion was coming from, and so it makes it even funnier that ultimately the choice was between those two players and I chose the wrong one. Also kav, although I didn't think you were scum for a variety of reasons, the fact that you failed to submit an invention day 1 was pretty scummy. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Extra funny that Day 1 I was cautioning Sandro not to be overly trusting of Mig. My point was that he was basing his whole read off of Day 0 skype conversations, and that those were really poor things to go off of. I then proceeded to accept Sandro as town based off of Day 0 Skype conversations I forgot to mention, there was some excellent infiltration by town of scum circles. WBG, Palmar, Foolish and probably Jimbo all did a good job of wringing info out of scum. On night 3 WBG handed us our two kills(prp and Sandro) by convincing Sandro he was scum, basically ending the game right there. | ||
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
Edit: I claimed york to prplhz. I thought I showed you the pm I sent him? | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I played badly this game, overestimated the amount of time I would have with midterms. I probably would have been fine, but the thread was dead pretty much all game long, with everyone just sitting in IRC, which I couldn't afford to do all day. So, that left me with little to do but yell at Syllo for being scummy. Our team somewhat hinged on use of the puppeteer to come into contact with the other teams, but after losing Cyber and Chaoser n1 (Screw IRC, next game with it as mafia, if I have time, I'm just screwing with everyone to make it as useless as I can) that was dead in the water. Ken revealed Decon, and then there wasn't much to do, after meapak was revealed in thread. I was pretty scummy, and surprised I wasn't shot on Night 1. I couldn't sit in IRC enough to look town, either. I was thinking of contacting Decon or Meapak on Day 2, but didn't have enough time to put in a good effort to do so. I doubt they would have listened to me either, unless I gave them my team's QT, or something. I think a major factor contributing to town's victory was that this game had multiple families as well as complete freedom to use PM and IRC. It was basically impossible to get into contact with another mafia family. Even if you red-checked them, and knew they were mafia, they probably wouldn't respond to you, as they would just assume that you're town fishing for info. We hoped to use the puppet for this, because he could drop details, such as family, hits, etc. without incriminating himself. Unfortunately, the puppet was shot. T.T Town was bad at fishing for info in PM. I was contacted by Palmar, who claimed my own family to me, and by WBG, who I knew was town as soon as he started trying to push for more info about our hit that night, and when he claimed his family's shot was blocked the night before. I knew I was apparent scum at that point, though, so I didn't bother "turning him in" to Radfield like I did Palmar. (Also, our plan was to shoot/steal Jimbo anyways, so you didn't affect anything WBG, haha) I think in future games with multiple families like this, there shouldn't be free PMs. Instead, add in anonymous PM/Mason roles, so that mafia families who want to use diplomacy as part of their game-plan can choose to do so, and it mitigates the effect of mafia being more disorganized. In a free PM game, town can organize itself, but mafia can't, really, without things like puppeteer that let them get into contact more safely. If you claim town to someone, it doesn't matter, but claiming scum is a little like shooting yourself in the foot, haha. Also, to know to contact someone means they need to look scummy, and to get contacted means you look scummy, which is counter-intuitive to your goal of survival. Another solution would be to give each mafia family it's own puppet, but the puppets can't actually PM each other, only players in the game. This will give mafia a way to contact and blackmail each other, and lets town try to pose as mafia to the puppet to gain information. You could give mayor a puppet too, maybe. :p (I like puppets) Back to studying, ~Mr. Wiggles | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
Fun game, I feel like I'm improving somewhat, thanks for hosting! | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
The ip argument doesn't hold very well, as people can change how their ip appears, and impersonate someone that way. I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to IRC, but I'm assuming it wouldn't be that hard to look up a proxy from an area near where someone lives, and then connect through that and claim you're on a laptop, and at a café or public WIFI or something. So, you get into a situation where you have to come up with passwords or something just to make sure the person you're talking to on IRC is who you really think it is. I don't like this, because it detracts from the point of mafia, and becomes more about technical ability and who's cleverest when it comes to masking who you really are or verifying identity. I'm not that mad about this game, because Jimbo actually came out in the thread, and claimed he was the one doing it. but, for example if he was mafia and I was town, I'd have been pretty pissed if he had been impersonating me on IRC and "scum-slipping" to people or something similar, because then I'd look very scummy, and it would be very hard to deny, as no one would have my ip copied as I wasn't on IRC, so I couldn't disprove it that way, and there's no way he would admit to it in thread. So basically, I would be punished for not being on IRC. Personally, I think it goes somewhat against the spirit of the game, and I don't see the difference between that, and for example faking a TL account (You can just check their post count, analogous to ip-checking), or making several fake Skype accounts players, so if you didn't already have them on skype from a prior game, you are again punished for not having done so. I think this is something that should be discussed for future games, and an amendment to the game OP added. Either we should decide if it's allowed or not, or if it should be host's decision. If it's allowed, it should be mentioned in the OP. If I were new, or it was my first PM game, I wouldn't like it if I got lynched because I wasn't aware of the possibility of myself or someone else being impersonated on IRC. For example, imagine a new player who claims his entire mafia team to someone in IRC because he didn't know a town player could be impersonating his team mate. I think it would make for a pretty crappy game. Personally, I think it shouldn't be allowed, unless the host wants to specifically provide for it, and then the host should make a note that he's doing so in the game OP. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On October 24 2011 04:54 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Also, I don't like IRC impersonation. It's easy enough to say to check someone's ip, but for example, Jimbo was impersonating me on IRC, and I had only been on there once. For the majority of people, there would be no indication that it wasn't me, unless they had my ip memorized from the last time I hopped on IRC. As well, I had no idea it was happening until it came out in the thread, because I wasn't on IRC very much, so I didn't see it. The ip argument doesn't hold very well, as people can change how their ip appears, and impersonate someone that way. I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to IRC, but I'm assuming it wouldn't be that hard to look up a proxy from an area near where someone lives, and then connect through that and claim you're on a laptop, and at a café or public WIFI or something. So, you get into a situation where you have to come up with passwords or something just to make sure the person you're talking to on IRC is who you really think it is. I don't like this, because it detracts from the point of mafia, and becomes more about technical ability and who's cleverest when it comes to masking who you really are or verifying identity. I'm not that mad about this game, because Jimbo actually came out in the thread, and claimed he was the one doing it. but, for example if he was mafia and I was town, I'd have been pretty pissed if he had been impersonating me on IRC and "scum-slipping" to people or something similar, because then I'd look very scummy, and it would be very hard to deny, as no one would have my ip copied as I wasn't on IRC, so I couldn't disprove it that way, and there's no way he would admit to it in thread. So basically, I would be punished for not being on IRC. Personally, I think it goes somewhat against the spirit of the game, and I don't see the difference between that, and for example faking a TL account (You can just check their post count, analogous to ip-checking), or making several fake Skype accounts players, so if you didn't already have them on skype from a prior game, you are again punished for not having done so. I think this is something that should be discussed for future games, and an amendment to the game OP added. Either we should decide if it's allowed or not, or if it should be host's decision. If it's allowed, it should be mentioned in the OP. If I were new, or it was my first PM game, I wouldn't like it if I got lynched because I wasn't aware of the possibility of myself or someone else being impersonated on IRC. For example, imagine a new player who claims his entire mafia team to someone in IRC because he didn't know a town player could be impersonating his team mate. I think it would make for a pretty crappy game. Personally, I think it shouldn't be allowed, unless the host wants to specifically provide for it, and then the host should make a note that he's doing so in the game OP. Or you could just use a server other than quakenet..... | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
On October 24 2011 05:24 Qatol wrote: Or you could just use a server other than quakenet..... This one-line doesn't really take up the very valid point that Mr. Wiggles has, that this game shouldn't be about who's more clever technically. Mafia is a game about behavioral analysis, no? Even the players who did it (JimboSilvers in this case) said that he actually thought it wasn't the nicest thing to do and that's why he stopped doing it. All this "allow fake identities on IRC" just adds additional overhead to the game, you either have to have a list of IPs and know how to check the IP of the guy you are chatting with, or you need to tell him to throw you a PM on teamliquid.net and then make sure he is using the right account. The first scenenario, the IP check list, is silly as some people might not know how to actually do that and people probably come here for .... a game about behavioral analysis, not a game about technical prowess. The second scenario, the PMs on teamliquid.net, just adds a lot of overhead to what was supposed to make the game easier, now you have to verify everybody on teamliquid.net which is just a bore and doesn't add anything to the game. If you want to take this technical aspect of the game to its extreme you could even implement PMs in a non-PM game by using public key cryptography. Totally valid within the rules, no data is ever posted outside the thread. But again, this distracts people from what this is ..... a game about behavioral analysis. I didn't like project honeypot either. I think this should be up to the hosts but I think that hosts are doing it wrong if they want to allow this. It adds absolutely nothing to the game, and it will possibly ruin it for people who don't have a skill set that no one ever told you that you needed to have to play ..... a game about behavioral analysis. I don't think anybody should ever have any sort of an edge just by being technically more clever. This is a game about behavioral analysis, no? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
EDIT: Not to mention only one player was caught by the IRC impersonation, it was in a public IRC channel, and there are multitudes of ways to prevent impersonation. You can do a PM check (something GM, Incog and I did in XLV) where you ask the person to confirm themselves by giving you all the capital letters in your last PM. That's an almost fool-safe way of preventing someone from misleading you. You can create secret channels if you want to talk to your scumbuddies. You can make your own channel and make it secret/password it by just looking up "how to put a password on an IRC channel" in google. First few hits, problem solved. Why is everyone crying about this when only one player was found through the impersonation? It is completely his own fault he got caught and was careless, and Jimbo's ingenuity should be praised. It was an excellent tactic to infiltrate the mafia who were mostly really complacent and weak this game. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7875 Posts
What should have been an epic game from all the potential layers of play that could have been used ended up in town steam rolling a complacent mafia, a mafia which opted to play with odd choice of roles. a host could correct me if i'm wrong, but I thought a hilarious play would have been vote rig the elections, sliding in the AoC into the office, then use showtime + voterigger secondary ability to crank out a free double lynch the following day into offing a ton of people via AoC. or the extactor + assassin, jack/day vig, etc.... With so many factions trying to avoid roles that allow you to have an edge is weird. Town has insane chances spotting another team over yours, or they could get caught up competing for similar roles. Had 1 mafia team been slightly more active and taken a better theme to roles (vote rigging, mass kp, insane night lives, etc...) they could have done alot better. Instead people opted to choose roles that were really not the best in working with eachother. some individual picks were insanely solid, but no team had a well rounded team. | ||
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
On October 24 2011 06:34 wherebugsgo wrote: I don't see how public key cryptography would change a thread game into a PM game. If it's public key then everyone can crack the crypt. EDIT: Not to mention only one player was caught by the IRC impersonation, it was in a public IRC channel, and there are multitudes of ways to prevent impersonation. You can do a PM check (something GM, Incog and I did in XLV) where you ask the person to confirm themselves by giving you all the capital letters in your last PM. That's an almost fool-safe way of preventing someone from misleading you. You can create secret channels if you want to talk to your scumbuddies. You can make your own channel and make it secret/password it by just looking up "how to put a password on an IRC channel" in google. First few hits, problem solved. Why is everyone crying about this when only one player was found through the impersonation? It is completely his own fault he got caught and was careless, and Jimbo's ingenuity should be praised. It was an excellent tactic to infiltrate the mafia who were mostly really complacent and weak this game. no it's cheap and not in the spirit of the game at all. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On October 24 2011 06:06 prplhz wrote: This one-line doesn't really take up the very valid point that Mr. Wiggles has, that this game shouldn't be about who's more clever technically. Mafia is a game about behavioral analysis, no? Even the players who did it (JimboSilvers in this case) said that he actually thought it wasn't the nicest thing to do and that's why he stopped doing it. All this "allow fake identities on IRC" just adds additional overhead to the game, you either have to have a list of IPs and know how to check the IP of the guy you are chatting with, or you need to tell him to throw you a PM on teamliquid.net and then make sure he is using the right account. The first scenenario, the IP check list, is silly as some people might not know how to actually do that and people probably come here for .... a game about behavioral analysis, not a game about technical prowess. The second scenario, the PMs on teamliquid.net, just adds a lot of overhead to what was supposed to make the game easier, now you have to verify everybody on teamliquid.net which is just a bore and doesn't add anything to the game. If you want to take this technical aspect of the game to its extreme you could even implement PMs in a non-PM game by using public key cryptography. Totally valid within the rules, no data is ever posted outside the thread. But again, this distracts people from what this is ..... a game about behavioral analysis. I didn't like project honeypot either. I think this should be up to the hosts but I think that hosts are doing it wrong if they want to allow this. It adds absolutely nothing to the game, and it will possibly ruin it for people who don't have a skill set that no one ever told you that you needed to have to play ..... a game about behavioral analysis. I don't think anybody should ever have any sort of an edge just by being technically more clever. This is a game about behavioral analysis, no? All I'm trying to point out is that there are ways around the problem you were discussing other than making a lot more work for the hosts. I think the players in this game relied too much upon IRC. Here is the problem: it is extremely hard to moderate how people act on IRC. It is also hard to figure out exactly who is breaking the rules in such a medium if they are more tech savvy than you are. Most hosts are not particularly tech savvy. Thus, hosts generally don't try to police things like IRC. This isn't the first game with IRC infiltrations/impersonations/etc (see Mafia 2, Ace's Mafia World, and Mafia 5 for example). Generally the solution to that is for the players to be more mindful that IRC is a lot less secure than IM/gchat or PM/quicktopic. The last time I was mafia, we used IRC but we used a different gateway, a password protected channel, and everyone used names other than our TL names. The hosts have enough to worry about in the thread. This shouldn't be their problem. You used IRC at your own risk and you got burned because of it. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On October 24 2011 06:34 wherebugsgo wrote: I don't see how public key cryptography would change a thread game into a PM game. If it's public key then everyone can crack the crypt. EDIT: Not to mention only one player was caught by the IRC impersonation, it was in a public IRC channel, and there are multitudes of ways to prevent impersonation. You can do a PM check (something GM, Incog and I did in XLV) where you ask the person to confirm themselves by giving you all the capital letters in your last PM. That's an almost fool-safe way of preventing someone from misleading you. You can create secret channels if you want to talk to your scumbuddies. You can make your own channel and make it secret/password it by just looking up "how to put a password on an IRC channel" in google. First few hits, problem solved. Why is everyone crying about this when only one player was found through the impersonation? It is completely his own fault he got caught and was careless, and Jimbo's ingenuity should be praised. It was an excellent tactic to infiltrate the mafia who were mostly really complacent and weak this game. Where do I give the impression I'm "crying" about it? Firstly, it always catches two people, as the person who is responding to you would only respond that way to his scum-buddy. So, it caught both Cyber, who responded, and Chaoser who Jimbo was posing as, even though Chaoser did nothing himself to get caught. I'm saying that I personally don't like it, but if everyone else playing on TL mafia doesn't care, or think it's a problem, then I'm fine if something just is added to the OP of PM games, along the lines of "Keep in mind impersonation outside of PMs is possible", to warn players, and also give a buffer to new players to stop them from outing their entire team. I think it's a pretty crappy way to play the game, if let's say Nooby McGee was playing for the first time, and someone posing as one of his scumbuddies contacted him in IRC saying "What do you think of our team mates so far?" and he gave the entire list of mafia over to town on day 1, because he didn't realize that IRC impersonation was possible. It's situations like that I want to avoid, because it isn't mafia, it's just dumb, and that's just one example. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On October 24 2011 07:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I'm saying that I personally don't like it, but if everyone else playing on TL mafia doesn't care, or think it's a problem, then I'm fine if something just is added to the OP of PM games, along the lines of "Keep in mind impersonation outside of PMs is possible", to warn players, and also give a buffer to new players to stop them from outing their entire team. I think it's a pretty crappy way to play the game, if let's say Nooby McGee was playing for the first time, and someone posing as one of his scumbuddies contacted him in IRC saying "What do you think of our team mates so far?" and he gave the entire list of mafia over to town on day 1, because he didn't realize that IRC impersonation was possible. It's situations like that I want to avoid, because it isn't mafia, it's just dumb, and that's just one example. I absolutely agree that it's a crappy way to play the game. I can add something about using IRC at your own risk to the model OP if you like. | ||
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