EPTOn September 05 2011 05:13 redFF wrote:
daywalker should mos def should ace
daywalker should mos def should ace
If vig is still alive after last night =/
Resurrection Mafia - Page 4
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
If vig is still alive after last night =/ | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 05 2011 07:44 Ace wrote: You're reading too much into that. Stop it. Funny, if someone else had said that, you would have torn them apart. Must be nice to be above the law. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
Did not expect 3 revivals though. At least one of them is the zombie, so if we only hit 1 scum yesterday, mafia kp is back up to 2. If both of the lynches yesterday were scum, then mafia kp is still at 1. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 05 2011 09:37 Jackal58 wrote: I agree with all of this. This leaves Drazerk as a Zombie. I'd say Daywalker shoot him, we lynch Bum and Ace. If we are wrong on one of them we should still destroy scum KP. Why isn't it possible that you're the zombie? Or even sinani? | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 05 2011 09:42 Jackal58 wrote: Because I was told when I died I would be ressed Ok, I missed that. On September 05 2011 09:42 Drazerk wrote: Well it should be pretty obvious that scum revived me... Kill me now to reduce their KP Scum could have also revived sinani. It is stated that people who come back from the dead still have their powers, and they aren't told how they are revived. They keep their old alignment, but count towards mafia kp as well. So you could be the zombie just as easily as sinani. Unless I'm missing something. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 05 2011 09:46 Jackal58 wrote: Yes. Kind of. I block all visits. My spread wings prevent the entry of all evil doers. But...you still died? lol On September 05 2011 09:46 chaos13 wrote: holy shit. I see nothing in the OP that answers my question. From OP Mafia KP is N/2 (rounded up). Zombies count towards KP. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 05 2011 09:53 iGrok wrote: QFT. Everyone go back and read the OP please. In its entirety. Now do it again. I've had to answer one too many questions about this game, and its starting to piss me off. Particularly when I realize that you HAVEN'T read the OP. It even says: There are special rules. Read this. This setup is intentionally confusing. But there are some things that I made sure to lay out in the OP, to help you figure out whats going on. I like setup analysis and turning games into logic puzzles a lot - and thats important in this game. But you still need to scumhunt, and in fact, since you DON'T KNOW everything thats going on in the game, and I TOLD YOU THAT YOU DON'T, scumhunting may be even more important than usual. So fucking do it. After this point, if someone asks me something that is clearly in the OP, you'll get a warning in the ban thread. If you keep at it, you'll get a ban. Read the thread before signing up for a game. *hug* I read the OP, iGrok. I hope that makes you feel better <3 | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 05 2011 09:55 Jackal58 wrote: I agree. Drazerk is not lynch bait. Anybody that votes for him is scum or dumb. He is a good day vig shot though. Nothing personal Drazerk but reading the thread while I was dead leads me to the conclusion that sinani was ressed and you are reanimated. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see that the vig is already dead. I'm assuming he would have shot Ace yesterday if he was still alive. But I do think you're probably right. Drazerk is more than likely the zombie. But the vig should NOT shoot Drazerk. The reanimated zombies are vets. iGrok, I read through the OP again, and I don't think I saw the answer to this. I know zombies count towards mafia kp. But what if all of the original mafia die and just the zombie is left? Assuming Drazerk was town before his death, he would still be town while being a zombie. So there would be no mafia left? Even though the mafia kp would still technically be 1? | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 05 2011 09:57 Jackal58 wrote: I can't protect myself. That would be a cool role though. Claim day 1 and game over. Oh I understand. Did you try to protect someone night 1? | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 05 2011 10:05 sandroba wrote: From the OP: "Not all role descriptions are complete." Don't you thinking by now the real coroner would have counter claimed? Also look at the list of players. If you think the scum team consists of redFF and sinani I don't know what to say. Also if the team is me/redFF/sinani why wouldn't we save redFF from the lynch by blocking one of his voters? What about bum's ridiculous claim have you nothing to say about that? If you argue the inhibitor is not present thus he could not be saved and the lynch results were because of pious I ask you to look at the suposedly townie roles because that would make at least 1 priest 1 medic 1 ridic lawyer claim and very likely a coroner since it's no flip. No roleblocker in this setup? I've been roleblocked twice and you are voting for me without any analysis or reasoning. There is simply no way you are town. I don't find bum's claim as ridiculous as you do. I don't necessarily believe his claim, but I have had a sneaking suspicion that I am the pious since the first night. This makes it very difficult for me to decide which one of you to believe. Your arguments against his claim ARE very weak. "Coloring his role green instead of blue, and using the word "are" instead of "is". | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 05 2011 10:12 wherebugsgo wrote: Dude you need to read more carefully. Bum was the one who colored his own role green. Also, sandroba is right in that it WAS a scum slip. Lastly, the number of things that have happened kinda don't add up to bum being right about sandroba. If bum and Ace both die tonight and someone dies due to a mafia kill anyway then obviously we need to reevaluate tomorrow, but we're not there yet. It doesn't make sense to value bum's claim when it came at the worst time of day possible (right before lynch). If he actually had pro-town agenda he would've claimed that well earlier in the day, when it would've been possible for us to switch votes off bum and onto a scummier target. Apparently the words "I don't necessarily believe his claim" means nothing. Excuse me for playing the devil's advocate. It helps me think and play out scenarios in my head. When I present a converse scenario, it makes everyone else clarify their points (or yell at me and call me an idiot) to try and convince me. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 05 2011 10:13 chaos13 wrote: Understood iGrok. Thank you very much. Then compromise and vote Ace. We need him gone today too. This I can do. ##vote Ace | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 05 2011 12:07 chaos13 wrote: It was me who used colors as a reason for not believing bum's claim. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257019¤tpage=32#635 My mistake | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 05 2011 23:44 chaos13 wrote: As you can see from my vote count above this, there is no way to tell who the pious is, assuming sandroba's being roleblocked is a truthful claim (I see no reason to disbelieve it as of yet). You're right. I just looked through and realized that myself. Kinda sad that it makes me not special =( | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
I know I have played poorly this game. I know that if you guys really want to lynch me, you can, and that's fine. But I promise you that you will be wasting a lynch. Ace being village idiot makes sense, but do village idiots usually exist in a game this small? Kenpachu being scum wouldn't surprise me, but if he is, its stupid. Lurkers suck. If he turns out to be scum, then the next time he lurks like this and we think he's scum, but he's town, he'll whine about it. What's the point of lurking? So that you can be like "OH LOOK MY TEAM WON" even though you haven't participated to help the win at all? Nobody likes people like that. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 06 2011 08:58 Ace wrote: See, you guys dont even read the thread. Ok smart guy, tell me this: When did the Town confirm Sinani as town, and how did we do it? Show me. Outline it. I dare you. Assuming mafia had 3 members to start with, then Mafia kp was 2. 3 people died that night. That is mafia kp + minion shot. sinani was lynched. If sinani was scum, then this would have reduced mafia kp to 1 before the mafia kills went out. On September 06 2011 05:03 iGrok wrote: Order is Blocking Effects, Lynches, Killing effects, Other effects. Lynch me if you dare! Sinani is town. I showed you. I outlined it for you. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
Possible. But sandroba made this post that makes it seem like 4 scum would be too mafia favored: On September 06 2011 00:47 sandroba wrote: Let's assume 4 scum for a second. That means if town double mislynch day (which most certainly happened) and seeing it's pretty much proven mafia has a minion that it would make the game from 11/4 day1 to 6/4 day2. That means scum can guarantee a townie lynch day2 by simply voting on the same person. Add to the fact that they have a roleblocker. So that means at best day 3 would be 4/3 + 1 zombie assuming priest ressurects a townie and town actually lynches one scum day2. That means auto win by mafia since they can quickly vote for a townie and rb one of the voters. So if there is 4 scum in this setup that means all they need is a double mislynch day1 to be guaranteed victory baring medic protecting right a lot. Even then it's an almost guaranteed victory because they will always get 1 free kp from the double lynch. That is not a balanced setup so it's almost impossible that the number of scum is not 3. And based off of your post: On September 06 2011 08:58 Ace wrote: sandroba I already explained why Scum can counter claim without fear. I'm probably the only player in TL Mafia history to break multiple setups easily during games - are you REALLY going to argue with this? No one can counter claim because it's a no flip game. This is fucking simple. I'm not going to discuss whether there are 3 or 4, or 7 Mafia because it doesn't matter as much as discussing how the roles possibly work. Something you keep failing to understand. redFF nor Sinani are confirmed town, so you better stop putting words out there like they definitely are. Gee, I wonder why. Pull your head out of your ass and think about it. See, you guys dont even read the thread. Ok smart guy, tell me this: When did the Town confirm Sinani as town, and how did we do it? Show me. Outline it. I dare you. How many no flip games have you ever played in? Tell the truth How many games have you ever played in that you've seen a backup role? Tell the truth Doesn't matter, because the answer is "Less than Ace". Didn't you get roleblocked? Why are you still alive? And why are you so sure Sinani must be town? For someone who has been given a lot of leeway in terms of coming up with plans how could you overlook such a GLARING oversight? This is basic for anyone that's an above average Mafia player and should have been the first thing you noticed if you are as good as some of these scrubs believe you are. Coroner role listed in the OP No flip No Counter Claim ability of any role Proof by death is usually one of the obstacles that stops Mafia from doing too many powerful Gambits. Every good Scum player I've known on various internet forums and irl pretty much agree: No flip helps Scum because of the how hard it is to confirm Townies. Knowing this, most Townies won't just blindly roleclaim in a no flip game as they know there has to be a role or some special mechanic or circumstances for them to be believed. And you expect me to believe redFF or just let it fly because he might be stupid. K. But I've already outlined why 2 players that can't confirm each other or can't be confirmed are possibly Scum. The insistence in denying bumatlarge's claim but taking redFF's claim over his is pretty fishy. But let's get back to the roles. Once again I'm going to quote the OP because thats where anyone thats every played with their heads and broken games before starts. Use whats given to you: iGrok confirmed that some roles are incomplete. The Coroner role may very well have some other options - but that's it. Options. The role explicitly states you can look at a corpse. That means one. redFF somehow looked at 2 corpses. As a back up role. Back up roles can't be more powerful than the original. Then there is this major snag here: A couple of issues. 1.) Why did redFF never claim Apprentice but Sinani did. This was redFF's claim: Apprentice vs Secret Coroner's Apprentice. Different role names. 2.) Now this one is a bit of a flyer because I dont know if iGrok knows about this, but I'm going to assume he does. In majority of games with backups, the original role and the backup either dont know they both exist, or the backup is not self-aware. This is an important caveat of games with back ups because if they both know each other exist they can both claim and prove the other role is legit. This is partially solved by it being a no flip game and having the coroner have to check out the dead claimant. They claimed coroner, oops. The other point is about being self aware, or knowing you are a backup. This can lead to all kinds of stupid shit happening but for the sake of argument lets keep it simple. I was watching redFF's claim very careful and when he claimed apprentice I was waiting to see if he would say he was a normal Townie and then suddenly became back up Coroner. This didn't happen though and made me extra skeptical. The chances of his shoddy role claim, being self-aware, and the original Coroner KNOWING there is a backup would be an amazing set of coincidences. Lets continue. 3.) sinani said he didn't use either of his checks. redFF gets both of them while he died. OK STOP. Once again I'm going to go off on a flyer here but this needs to be taken into context. I dont think iGrok would ever break a role like this. This is the first part of the explanation: Why would he punish the Mafia team like this? The Mafia correctly pops the Coroner on Day 1. The Town gets a back up Coroner who gets a Day 1 and Day 2 check, punishing the Mafia for hitting correctly on the first day. This is somewhat shoddy balance and if this is the case then so be it. So redFF got them both when I died. He only used one, on Varpulis, but he said that he used one on me, too. But the thing is he knew that I was Coroner since he was my apprentice and decided to check someone else.[/quote] If he knew you were the Coroner being your apprentice then the game would be broken. At best, the back up would have a suspicion the real role exists, not the name of the actual player who has the role. That would be absurdly broken. A Police Chief role doesn't know the name of his Detectives precisely because knowing a confirmed innocent while having investigation powers leads to games where Scum get rolled. Second of all, how would you know that redFF's role description allows him to know you are the Coroner? Explain this. Now. So today, when I was revived, I was notified that I only had one check left. So I checked OriginalName, who was/is an inhibitor, to check how accurate the speculative scumteam of ON, bum, and Ace was. Obviously, from my information, it was pretty accurate. What day is this? Day 1: You got 0 checks off Day 2: redFF got an extra check since you died? Day 3: you come back to life, but get one last check Why would iGrok give redFF 2 checks then if you have the chance to come back to life. Once again he'd be punishing the Scum team for performing well. So today, when I was revived, I was notified that I only had one check left. So I checked OriginalName, who was/is an inhibitor, to check how accurate the speculative scumteam of ON, bum, and Ace was. Obviously, from my information, it was pretty accurate. Everyone, vote for Ace and bum. I am much more sure about bum being scum, just because this is the first game I've played with Ace. This is absurdly stupid for reasons I've outlined in past posts but I'll say it again: If ON is truly Scum then how does that implicate bumatlarge and myself? Explain where we are linked together. Prove it instead of just hiding behind speculation. For 2 roles like this to exist in the game AND for you to have foreknowledge of each other, plus the convenience of the checks seems too fishy to me. The fact that you immediately jumped on me for calling this out without even trying to understand the setup, not giving bum's claim serious consideration, glossing over the fact that the OP contradicts what redFF said, the shoddy linking of myself to ON and Bum, oh and one more major point: The game is guaranteed to last at minimum until Day 3. If you die Day 1 and do not get resurrected, then why would redFF lose his checks on Day 2 after using both of them. That just defeats the purpose of being a backup role. For someone who said he claimed because he is now useless this doesn't sit well. Especially since he originally claimed he can check twice per day On September 04 2011 07:05 redFF wrote: im secret coroners apprentice, i can check twice a day. Why did he never explicitly state you are the Coroner when he claimed? How come YOU have knowledge about his role but he never told us. Remember when I chastised redFF for claiming? Why didn't he do a full claim? His claim came in pieces. He never claimed how his role worked all at once and he has not given us Varpulis's role. Why not? Varpulis was town right? So you'd push the revival of the other pro-town player pretty hard right? He hasn't. This just can't all be coincidence can it? All of this? On September 03 2011 06:56 redFF wrote: kk since i have a feeling i will die tonight here is scumreads, in order from scummiest to least scummy(but still scummy) varpulis, sinani, sandroba, originalname, ace(though his posting is getting better), bumatlarge. Don't resurrect varpulis or sinani plz coroner varp. On September 04 2011 05:20 redFF wrote: btw if it isnt obvious i kinda took a step back today because my 2 scummiest reads were both town lol. Amazing how these things work out. [/QUOTE] you seem like a huge advocate for balanced games and get really pissed when set ups venture off the norm. So I'm going to put a little bit of faith in you and ask you: How often do you see no-flip games with 15 people have more than 3 scum? Because sandroba's explanation (which makes sense to me) seems to suggest otherwise. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 06 2011 10:24 Ace wrote: *redFF messed up his claim. Really what this comes down to is: Is redFF really THAT bad of a player that he did not read the OP and think about the overall strategy of the game? I don't usually let people go away with that excuse. @jcarlsoniv: Show me the exact scenario again and order of events. With quotes and everything that proves this. I'm more than happy to, but I'm not sure why what I just said wasn't enough. What do you not understand about my deductive reasoning? Where am I missing something. Show me the hole, and I'll be glad to look for a way to patch it up. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On September 06 2011 10:59 Ace wrote: I've been thinking about this too, and it also irks me. If we have a Coroner and a backup Coroner then we might also have 2 priests. I don't see why iGrok would give us 2 Coroners when losing the priest is just as bad for the Town if this holds. The thing about revival is that once a dead player comes back to life, he has every incentive to claim knowing he will die again. But no one seems to realize this, or is purposely not mentioning this. Reviving Varpulis is actually the best move the Town can make right now. What would it do for your argument (purely curious) if I were to hypothetically claim HP, and there was another HP claim also? Are you just using it to reinforce your case that there could be 4 scum? | ||
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