Pick Their Power Mafia 2
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MY HEAD IS ALWAYS CRAZYYYYY | ||
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On July 19 2011 02:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote: /in Can I give you Drunk Batman? Only if its better than shitty batman from last game. | ||
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On July 24 2011 08:30 youngminii wrote: I thought of a role but I'm having trouble with the penalty. Can someone give me an example? I didn't play in PTP and I can't seem to find any penalties there. Look in PtP and bum's role. I built what was basically a penalty into his role. | ||
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Before anyone one goes "lets slow down here" He outright lied about his role, and we know based on a role flip that ON had a statement saying he was out to kill harry potter. As such the two should be opposite alignment, or at the very least, HP third party. As such he dies. We do not keep liars around, we do not keep people around who are on a quest to find bullshit items. Also whoever made my role, go die in a fire. ##vote jackal58 | ||
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On July 25 2011 14:13 DropBear wrote: At the risk of being mauled by youngminii, is there a reason why Foolishness is using TLPD in all his posts so far? Any reason why you chose to rhyme in your last post? Prob a random accidental click of tlpd | ||
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On July 25 2011 13:54 heist wrote: Guys, I'm not getting the hesitation on jackal. ON's role explicitly tells him to kill Harry Potter. ON is a confirmed townie, not some 3rd party with his own win agenda. Kill him right now, no need to use up the lynch. If Jackal is the lynch, it's insanely easy for the mafia to hide behind their vote for Jackal. I'm fairly certain YM is not scum if Jackal flips red. He had to have known that killing ON would turn the town against Jackal. Why would scum allow YM to kill ON especially as ON was basically powerless? Also if he was scum, I feel he would have used the stealth kill instead and remain role hidden. Jackal's flip does not reveal anything about YM. For all we know jackal is third party and YM is red. Jackal's flip reveals absolutely nothing about YM. Just because you wouldn't choose to do what YM did if you were red/third party does not mean he would not do it. | ||
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On July 25 2011 10:46 Jackal58 wrote: Please don't. Be aware-- Voldemort has disguised himself as a member of the town and is trying to collect the items. I'm Harry Potter. From: deconduo [ 2677 posts | Profile | Buddy | Report ] Subject: PTP2 Role Date: 7/25/11 08:50 "You are Harry Potter, and you are on a mission to unite the three Deathly Hallows. Be aware-- Voldemort has disguised himself as a member of the town and is trying to collect the items, same as you! Each item you or Voldemort obtain will grant the holder a power, but unfortunately you can only use one item per night. The Elder Wand - Allows you to shoot someone during the night. The Cloak of Invisibility - Allows you to survive a hit during the night The Resurrection Stone - Allows you to protect another player during the night. The problem is, you do not know where the items are! You suspect they may be in possession of other people in the town. Being muggles, they may not be aware of the magical properties of the items. In order to find the items, you have the ability to choose one correspondent every day. During the following night, and that night only, you can freely exchange PMs. But you cannot talk once the night has passed. If your correspondent happens to possess one of the items you seek, he may decide to give it to you by sending a PM to the hosts of the game. You must convince them to do so, however!" bolded part is the lie. ON was town, not disguised as it. Also ON had a clause in his role requiring him to kill HP. It seems very well, odd to have 2 townies fighting over the same items to get a power role and then have 1 having to kill the other while the other just wants the items? Why would town be required to kill town. | ||
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On July 26 2011 02:09 syllogism wrote: Someone lied about Supersoft's role though Supersoft: Dropbear: Just means the host could have modified the role. Decon did it slightly to the joker role I made bum last ptp. It was literally a change from bum could choose his rival, to making me his rival when I got the batman role. | ||
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On July 26 2011 02:25 sandroba wrote: Okay here is explanation number 2. I refuse to believe that mafia does things at random so here's what I got, and this one doesn't relly on SS being mafia: -Jackal was leading the lynch, followed by kita. People were asking for a check on either him or kita. They knew YM was going to do it. For them to have enough reason to kill YM, despite the risk, Jackal is not scum, because it's safe to assume he was getting lynched anyway. However if any of these 2 players got checked, then kita was probably doomed, so they had to take a risk to save one of their players and hope things worked out. What about the issue of trackster using his ability. He knows there is someone out there that can instantly cap him. HE was red. He also knew saving either kita / jackal via shot (if either or both is red) only assures he can be revenge killed. It seems far more likely that they opted to shoot YM because he had a really strong role. He was heavily reading town based on the action, but still enough doubt that a day vig on him wouldn't be terrible. It honestly looks to me like a blue snipe with a hope no one would find it too out of place. | ||
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On July 26 2011 02:50 Kurumi wrote: Check BC because we are fucked if he is mafia. Check me and laugh. Whoever dt checks will laugh almost as hard as i cringed at my role. | ||
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On July 26 2011 02:38 sandroba wrote: K, BC, so you what's your opinion on kita? honestly? I have no clue. Based on my own role I already know players have posting restrictions. He could be forced to ask questions for all I know. This game day has been a clusterfuck of claims, lying, and the like. Until shit settles down into something that can be analyzed i'm not ruling out posting restrictions. | ||
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On July 26 2011 03:56 redFF wrote: What was your penalty? Good job Supersoft, I didn't get a pm telling me tackster's alignment, was that a mistake? I'm still weary of Jackal. Behaviourally i'm not noticing anything that scummy though. I'm tired of Kurumi getting away from doing jack-shit every game and doing no analysis and just trolling so i'm voting him until something better comes up. kita-iirc he played this way early on in the first ptp and was town and a lot of people(mainly mafia) jumped on him for it to get an easy lynch, I suggest someone starts quoting supersoft though. i will do it if necesssary. I suggest no one quotes supersoft and no one votes for kurumi. Based on how Kurumi is playing, his power seems to require votes instead of fistbumps like palmar from last ptp. Supersoft's power we are told operates via quote levels. how about we don't give two people access to their powers? How about we kill jackal or, each player with an item asks if they can destroy it (as well harry breaks the wand, gets rid of the stone and only keeps the cloak in the books). Letting people run loose with powers when we have no actual confirmed alignment of them is just a bad move. Limit people from acting until they are verified. | ||
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On July 26 2011 04:04 syllogism wrote: Supersoft just killed mafia and another person confirmed his role. Unless you think this is some absurd gambit by mafia and they are all 3 (supersoft,dropbear,tackster) red, how can you possibly argue against supersoft using his alignment checks? Is this some posting restriction because that makes little sense Super soft is likely not red as he killed a red, you are correct. That does not exclude him from being third party however. Also note, drop bear claimed the role of what tim roth was before super soft came forward. IT forced him forward as he was forced out in the open. Based on how the role was used we can extrapolate that dropbear and supersoft are most likely not of the same alignment (unless town, but then dropbears ability must have been total shit to warrant activating his penalty). As supersoft was forced to use his role he might be red, but more than likely he is third party or town. We gained no information on drop bear other than he was willing to risk a penalty for outing SS. This doesn't give any information upon his role. Until such a time as any of them have confirmed their innocence I would prefer to keep as many people as possible from using their abilities. Do we seriously need another day vig or the like going rampant without input from anyone? | ||
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Uh yes it does. You do not reward people for roleclaiming when it gives literally no honest data about their alignment. Role isn't alignment. If someone is dumb enough to roleclaim punish them for it unless they have a good history in game to warrant the roleclaim. LIke a day 3-4 dt bringing a list of reds, or a hatter with his bomb placements then gettin glynched, etc... You dont on day 1 let people use powers when their alignment is still obfuscated. That is bad play. In a game where apparently people can use a ton of DAY POWERS, and especially on day 1 you want to limit what people can use. Everyone who fistpounded you day 1 and 2 in the last ptp was an absolute retard as they did it without considering you being red. Let them prove their innocence and then let them use their powers. | ||
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On July 26 2011 04:24 syllogism wrote: Hello, he just killed mafia and another person confirmed his role. Even if your strange theory that they likely aren't of the same alignment, there's almost no chance at all that the role description isn't correct ...... Are you dense? I as red have killed my own members before. It builds credibility. So yes we know he killed a mafia, after someone said "i made his role and its this" not before. The person who did this made the claim to put FoS on SS. So if they were both red, DB wouldn't have said a thing. If SS is red and called out, he has to respond or get lynched. Using information caused from a forced from a situation where you live or die does not confirm the player. It may confirm the role, but not the player. Role does not equal alignment. Had SS killed trackster before being called out I would more likely buy he is town, had DB not thought he instantly had to out SS there are enough variables that you want to not risk activating powers of players you cannot confirm at this point. | ||
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On July 26 2011 04:45 syllogism wrote: So you are admitting the role is likely confirmed. What exactly will mafia/third party supersoft do with his alignment checking role that town is forcing him to use? At worst we will be mislead, but we are always free to ignore his checks. At best he gives us red today. There's no risk at all unless it's a gambit and they are ALL red. which is also why I stated I found him more likely to be sk or town. However until I know for sure I would say dont let him use it. If he is sk, he will appear as town, then screw us later. If he is town he should have no issue waiting until he is confirmed. Anyone believe they can force someone to use their power in some way the owner doesn't want to is naive. | ||
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On July 26 2011 04:50 heist wrote: Agree. If flip turns out red, then we lynch. If green, we take it as a grain of salt and potentially have a confirmed townie if supersoft is ever killed and flipped green. Also, either we kill jackal or we don't, but if we aren't, then I really think we should give him the stone and tell him to protect supersoft. So let me get this straight, He finds a red, we lynch and go yay yay. If finds a green, announces it to thread, and then mafia kill confirmed town? How about we confirm SS, he then uses his power and only say, speaks up. It also requires, every single person in a day to do this with him, bulks up a thread to make it hard to read, and then him to accurately pick someone to check. Also you want to give another unconfirmed player a power? What is your deal this game. You have no way to make jackal prot SS. SS gets shot and flips town, jackal says "i proted him, he must have been double stacked" Jesus, do you people think at all? Role does not equal alignment. People who use kp related roles as town should be penalized. People who have roles that require manipulating a town to get power (see jackals role before he claimed), or people who seemingly require votes to use a power and are acting like trollbate to get it. You do not help these people, you make them useless. If they are sk or mafia they get gimped. If they are town they should understand and start analyzing players. This is not "lets use everyones powers and figure out who has what and then figure out who is red/sk" This is lets figure out whos mafia/sk. Trying to confirm someone based on potential use of a role that was claimed by them (could still be slightly different, hell the alignment could be different). | ||
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On July 26 2011 04:52 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So you're saying not to use a day DT check on a potential lynch target, on the off-chance that he might be an SK and get town-cred? Also, how exactly do we confirm him besides killing him? Sounds like rather bad reasoning, to me. use a dt check on SS first. Don't trust someone whos suspect to give real feedback. Make him earn his damn check. You do not reward roleclaimers ffs. | ||
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On July 26 2011 05:01 Palmar wrote: Are you seriously suggesting we DON'T use a dt check from a highly likely townie on day 1? Like, I don't get how that logic makes any sense. Remember, no one is forcing you to believe him, but blocking him from using it would be stupid. how is blocking a role use that we don't control benefit us? You say we do benefit? How? People have to get in the quoted discussion for him to check that player. No player who doesn't want to be checked will do this. It spams a thread and clutters it and puts all our eggs in one basket. Almost all the people who originally jump into that criteria of him using his power will be immune to rolechecks, or be town. GG you just gave mafia a huge list of people to shoot. Thanks for losing us a game? Think with your heads for once. Role doesnt mean alignment, and just because we know his role doesn't mean it can't be exploited. I sure hope checking jackal is worth the idea of potentially lots of townies getting capped. Seems like a good trade to me. | ||
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On July 26 2011 05:07 chaos13 wrote: BC, what you're saying is absolutely ridiculous. 1. You do not want people to vote on Kurumi, based on that you think he has a vote-activated power, despite how he is simply trolling and being anti-town. He has not hinted at all that his power is activated based on how many votes he receives though, all he said is that it happens when he dies. Worst case scenario, he is town and his power harms town. Best case scenario, he is mafia and his power harms town. I don't know about you, but I would gladly trade a likely mafia for a townie. We come out far better from that than scum do. 2. You do not want supersoft to use his DT check. Wat. Wat. WAT. You're reasoning is that "he will confirm someone town and mafia will kill them." Let's get him to check one of our top suspects. If they're town, rather than lynching them we will move onto someone else who is now that much more likely to be mafia. If they're scum, we lynch them without hesitation (duh). Let's face it, people are going to die from mafia tonight anyway. If we get a confirmed town, then we get any medic-type roles to protect them. I really see no possible way that getting him to use his power can harm us. A DT check that we all get to know the results of is good. I'm really not liking your play here BC. I can't see why a townie would want to protect a spammer or avoid using a DT check. Its called using your head. If you guys would stop herp derping and take your heads out of your asses you would see logic. You don't let random people use powers. You do not believe you can control powers that you as your own person do not own. You do not give open firing for mafia to get a read on who is a better shot than others. Seriously, sit the hell down and stop talking about how a role will help the town and get back on course of how you actually play mafia. | ||
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On July 26 2011 05:14 chaos13 wrote: Wait, isn't supersoft's check an alignment one, not a role check? BC seems to have these mixed up... My bad I am confused on the role flip, confirms alignment and outright tells if they are lying. Still doesn't change the point. Town is more likely to want to be confirmed town than sk / mafia. Certain roles almost always wish to be confirmed first before others. Giving mafia / sk better ideas of who to snipe. As SS only claimed after he was forced to his personal alignment is suspect. We know based off his claim that his role / alignment is given to mafia, if he is red, who cares? If he is sk, this sucks, if he is town this sucks. If he is red regardless of his check the result will always be town. If it is sk he will reveal them in thread. If he is town all checks will be real. Nothing he says can be taken in truth? As such why put faith in the ability of someone you cannot confirm. His role use does not mean he is town. He was called out and forced to use his power. | ||
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On July 26 2011 05:19 sandroba wrote: BC, do you have any doubts that his power is an aligment check? Do you think DropBear is lying and got a penalty on purpose just to out his own teamate and also endangered him of being lynch fucks for kicks? No. They can't both be mafia, so his role does indeed provide an aligment check and that's it. I'm not giving it the freedom so whoever wants to be checked can do it. I'm asking for a check on kita. If he fails to comply we lynch him. That simple. Even if supersoft is scum how does an aligment check helps him? It does not, it can only have potencial of helping us if he's town. Also if someone flips and he said his aligment wrong, there we got him. What's the downside to this? if he is red, all checks reveal town maybe sks reveal third party. He just wouldn't out his team. So your idea of reversing all his checks is dumb, its not even guarenteed a red is ever checked by his alignment as they would have no need to participate. Also, lynching a player based on not participating in a plan that cannot be confirmed without other players using powers / the user of said original power dying is dumb. Kita asked questions, perhaps that is a posting restriction. Foolishness is using a ton of TLPD in his posts, perhaps that is his posting restriction. We also have players who were using day vig powers. We have players who on day 1 were calling for people to use day vig powers. We have enough scummy, suspect play on day 1 already. How about we sit back and play normally instead of hoping our trust is rewarded. Luck should not be a factor in how we proceed if its not backed by solid analysis or very very very solidly made plan that has a near 0% chance of failure. | ||
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On July 26 2011 05:21 syllogism wrote: I can only see two possibilities: BC has a really odd posting restriction or he isn't town aligned. Leaning on former as this would be incredibly bad scum play and there are no village idiots. My posting restriction actually would make me the scummiest looking player in the game / near VI level. Thankfully I have the choice of never using it and being vanilla. | ||
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On July 26 2011 05:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote: How contradictory. You think that having SS use his rolecheck is rewarding him (not town, just him) for roleclaiming, but then say we should wait for another DT to check supersoft to confirm him as town or not. Here's how that fails: -Framers -Fake DT claim to take out Day DT -Continual Role block after today on SS -Having to have an actual DT claim to confirm him So, you don't want to reward roleclaimers, but then want another DT to claim to confirm a known DT, who's alignment is unknown? That makes no sense at all. The best thing to do, is to use his check, and have him announce his result to town. The catch is we don't act just based on his check. We can check a lynch candidate if we want, but that gets dangerous if he's scum, though another 1-1 trade wouldn't be that bad. The other thing we do is check someone suspicious, who isn't necessarily getting lynched today and having him announce his check, and just leave it until we can confirm him. Then if he gets popped, we know all his checks and results, and if we can act on them, and if he gets confirmed another way, well we know all his results too. I'd actually suggest checking you or DB, and then leaving it for now. As well, why would we check people asking to be checked, and why would anyone be dumb enough to ask for a DT check on them without already being suspicious anyways? If they're asking to be checked, they're town or a covered role. Town wouldn't want to waste a DT check on themselves, as compared to suspicious people. Use the tool to hunt mafia, not to confirm town. An innocent check doesn't prove innocence, but the only way we're getting a red check back at this point is millers or a day-framer. Day 1 has the least chance of anything interfering with the check, and is the best time to use it. I'd rather have 1 check in, than have none and SS gets shot tonight. Check the bolded part. In almost every case of someone asking or begging for a dt check they are town or covered role. Most people do this to confirm themselves and thus starting a blue circle that can rofl stomp mafia. It is very common practice for people to want to be cleared as to move through a game with 0 harassment from anyone. No mafia would willingly throw himself up for a dt check as it would screw him in the end. You say no townie would want it used on them, but that would again, leave you a pool of 0 people to check. you are then down to the idea of "we want you checked you let yourself get checked or lynched" which is a horrible way to play. Seriously, you all are talking about role use being the huge factor in catching people. I now say, everyone go back read pick your power 3 and realize playing lets analyze roles, or someones role means they are legit, etc.... and realize roles do not say shit about the players alignment. Who cares if SS's check is an alignment check if you don't know his alignment. Have a watcher/tracker check him. If he visits anyone at night at this point in time he is mafia. have a dt check him. Dt's could breadcrumb results, or the like. Seriously, before a plan is proposed you sort it out, you make it ideal, you account for multiple situations. So far the only situation proposed by you lot is SS is likely town for shooting a red. Likely town does not mean town. | ||
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On July 26 2011 05:30 sandroba wrote: Are you allowed to claim your post restriction BC? Because this is getting annoying. Where did I sugest we reverse his checks? Also how do you propose we do analysis when *anything* can be a post restriction acording to you? I'm done arguing with you, you don't make any sense. I could claim it yes, I opt not to. You may ask me why? Simple. It doesn't benefit the town at this point where it benefits mafia / third parties extremely. | ||
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On July 26 2011 05:34 syllogism wrote: I suppose BC could also have a role that involves getting people to quote him I wish. | ||
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On July 26 2011 05:40 Mr. Wiggles wrote: What? So, instead of using a check, and just leaving it, until we have a second DT out themselves or breadcrumb and die, you're saying never use the check? Did I understand that correctly? Please tell me how what you're trying to say is optimal play. How is not having a check better than having one? The only situation proposed by you, is that we don't use the check at all. That's asking a claimed and outed DT to not check people or reveal his checks, until another DT checks him. In what world does that make sense? Ask yourself how you would play this out in a normal game. If a DT claimed, would you ask him to not check anyone until another DT checked him and claimed it? That sounds really dumb to me. In a normal game, on day 1, if someone claimed dt and said x was red, I would kill the dt first. Every time. In a setup where mafia, third parties, or town can be a dt, I will never trust the claimant ever on day 1. Nor should anyone else. | ||
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On July 26 2011 05:48 heist wrote: Also I stand by my decision about the stone at least night 1. At this point, I am just completely uncertain about jackal. If we are willing to give jackal the benefit of the doubt, don't leave him completely powerless. Give him the stone. How does this help mafia night 1? No townies should be shooting each other in the night at this point. Mafia can not predict who the SK will be killing. If we are willing to trust him enough to not kill him, the stone has a lot of upside for town if jackal is town and very miniscule downside if he's mafia. We can always force him to give it back after night 1. Town shouldn't have been shooting town only a few hours into day 1 either yet it still happened. Just because you hope something won't happen doesn't mean it wont. Keep in mind townies don't know who other townies are. If your hesitant about someones alignment and you know they for the most part are powerless and as of now only have a mason role, why the hell wouldn't you keep them having a mason role. That is powerful enough without making someone a med / immune to death / kp role. Also by restricting what his powers are if he is town he is not as threatening a target as someone else. | ||
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On July 26 2011 05:51 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Ok, so where's the part where we're trusting him by having him use a check on an agreed upon target? That's what I'm wondering about. You're saying that by letting him check, we're implicitly trusting him to be town, but that is not the case. We can let him sit in unconfirmed limbo for now, but why not use his check? It doesn't hurt us to use his check, the same way that killing the DT actually tells us whether the check is true or not. By giving him a check we give legitmacy over time to his supposed alignment. Say he is mafia, he checks kita, kita flips town, he gives us a town. That makes him look better as he complied to the check. Say both kita and SS are red, he says kita is town it still gives both a look of legitmacy. One for complying for the check. Its subtle and its insidious. Someone who is not confirmed you do not let slowly insinuate they are. Had you guys outlined you planned on trusting his check with a grain of salt I would be less worried than i am now. | ||
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On July 26 2011 05:52 Curu wrote: Difference in a normal game scenario, DT is willingly outing himself to buy Town cred. supersoft was forced out and as I explained in my above post there's very little chance he's Mafia unless he is actively trying to hurt his team. If he's a 3rd Party then he has no reason to lie about his alignment checks anyways, since if he lies we kill him. You're arguing about relying on behavior analysis and not powers to find scum and it's true but in a game where everyone is a friggin blue role it'd be absurd to ignore powers especially one as heavily Pro Town as a DT alignment check. Pro town roles does not mean pro town alignment. Fucking christ. Putting a super powered pro town role into the hands of mafia would be a great balancing tool for a host. A player who comes forward with their own role, risking death is also more likely to be town (later in game not day 1) than someone who only came forward after a player forced them too. If the person who forces you out is town they believe they are doign a town action, mafia forces out a role that then gives them free reign to cap, third party gets a role out that will get shot, etc.. By coming out after being forced he plays the role of any player in that situation. Reveal his role or get lynched. Every mafia/sk/town would have used their power and claimed. It gives us nothing on his alignment, and his checks are not 100% accurate. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:03 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Of course we'd take it with a grain of salt, I'm taking everything in this game with a grain of salt, because if I trusted everything I read, I'd be pretty silly. That's also why I'm saying we can also check people who aren't major lynch targets yet, and then just ignore the results until someone else confirms SS, he gets shot by mafia, or we even flip him ourselves with a vig. Now I am seeing the first person with some sense -_-. Wiggles, go back and originally read the use of his role and you will see NO ONE advocated what you did just now. You will see it otherwise and should realize my discontent. What you just proposed is more cautious than everything else in relation to using his role to this point. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:15 Curu wrote: @BC It's a Pro Town power because it massively helps Town and very minimally hurts it. We are not saying he's very likely/confirmed Town because of his power. We are saying it because: You yourself agreed he is likely Town (but that it doesn't mean confirmed Town, which is right). Well, why so vehement against a likely Town player using his free DT power and giving us information? On the offchance that he's going to lie as 3rd Party (3rd Parties have no reason to lie about the alignment check, as he would get killed the instant he is caught lying) or the teeny tiny chance he's Mafia? And yes he was forced out but if he was Mafia then when forced out he would merely have just said yeah I shot YM cause I thought he was scum, my mistake sorry guys instead of willingly revealing that he wasn't the one and then shooting Tackster. There's no reason not to use his power. I would much rather have BC checked at this point unless you guys are up for lynching him. Simple reasoning to your bit on no sense. Take a look at the game flamewheel wrapped up few weeks ago. As red I directed a town hatter at a member of the mafia who was most likely going to live? Why? Credibility. I then had the team split on two opposite ends of an argument pushing for a lynch where both candidates were town. Why? Because no mafia would do that, etc... Doing what makes the "least" sense as a red at points will end up with the highest reward. Its unexpected and thus accepted as legit as it would be insane for a red to perform the move. There are many players who like to make gambits, or do moves like this and it is very rough to just outright accept someones claim at face value. His shooting tackster has even added to the "validity" of his claim. Why would mafia kill a person so quickly into the day when they could cover it up, etc... If you can't trust his check, then why use it? He checks me, says i'm green. Town goes, well i think hes lying. I get lynched and flip green. It says nothing of his alignment. If he says x flips red and he claims they are red and the person dies and flips town, yes then hes screwed. But if hes red all checks will flip as green until the mafia hit a point wher elosing 1 red is worth the exchange for one town. If he is SK he will most likely out the reds, etc... We as town cannot trust his checks fully, but third party or mafia can. They get far more information from a check than we as a town do. They can fire their shots based on his checks, etc... Stacking hits is a normal strategy, they know who to rb, etc.... We are giving freebie shots to non town groups based on his checks if he is in fact town. If he is third party doesn't matter much other than it builds him credibility to live, and as red again builds credibility to live. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:22 Curu wrote: No, I just think BC is far scummier. Kita has asked some questions and acted suspicious, but BC is straight up here arguing against a very likely Town player using his free DT check because "he might be lying." Thats because you guys are straight up not thinking. I am being logical, concise, and most importantly I am thinking on a level beyond "herp derp we got a blue". If I was red, why would I argue against his checks? Why would I throw myself into the fire of this nonsense and try to fix an obvious error in town judgement. Use your damn heads. Take a step back from the general "hes an alignment dt" and seriously think of motivations behind all sides for the move, how it benefits each side, which side benefits the most from all perspectives, etc... Town is almost always at the bottom of the list. His checks will hurt us more than help us at this point in time. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:27 sandroba wrote: ??? Because I actually don't think he's scum, based on behaviour. Also we know jackal's role (useless unless he has items) and kita has the potencial to have a good scum role. Where is your analysis that indicates jackal is scum? I like kita as scum much better. Jackal claimed ON was a red in disguise via his role, whereas ON claimed he was town. ON's role included a bit stating he had to kill HP. Regardless they were fighting for the same power items. It seems unlikely both are the same alignment, although they could be. Also, kita could have a good scum role? Everyone in this game could have a good scum role, that is not a valid reason to lynch someone. He asked questions and got shafted for it. That is far less scummy than a ton of day 1 rc's into creating this chaotic mess as of right now. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:30 syllogism wrote: No, you are being intentional obtuse; no one ever argued that we should trust his checks until there's further confirmation of his alignment. You kept changing your argument over and over again and now you are finally making some sense. You are just one of those players who can never admit to being wrong. If none of you speak worries of your thoughts on a check until pressured. You didn't think that through enough to see the issues. I haven't fully changed my argument, I have added to it. My core argument is the same, where the information I use to back it up changes. Note that. I am still against his check, I was from the start. The information I use to get people to see reason is different that is all. My issue isn't being proven wrong and admitting to it, it is people who stubbornly believe they are always right when they fail to even mention the negatives to a situation. No one was talking about them, ie no one A) cares B) thought of them C) herp derp I have thus far been one of the most transparent players in this game, and saying otherwise makes you look bad. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:33 Curu wrote: No Mafia wants to be put into a position where they have to surrender any more information than they have to. Even if supersoft was Mafia, which is unlikely, having to submit himself to bussing more teammates or getting caught in lies is detrimental to him as well. You're just introducing a shitload of WIFOM too "well Mafia can't act like obvious Mafia so whoever is acting least like Mafia is probably Mafia but maybe they know that too so we can't trust that either." This is just ridiculous. Mafia gets more info from an alignment check than we do? Mafia knows everyone's alignments (in terms of Mafia vs not Mafia) anyways. How is supersoft pointing at someone and saying he is Town giving Mafia information? Herp derp, they knew that already. Unless you're somehow convinced Mafia getting 3rd Party alignments will lose the game for Town. "If he is SK he will most likely out the reds" Yep, that's the whole point of us wanting to use his ability. Point out reds. If we're in a position where we can't trust his checks, ie he's Mafia, then Mafia isn't getting anything from his checks either because they know it's BS. Mafia shooting YM pretty much shows how afraid they are of alignment checks and BC is falling right into it. Please people, lynch BC. No mafia wants to? You are correct. He didn't however have a choice did he? Are you fucking retarded? HE WAS CALLED OUT BY HIS ROLE CREATOR. What's he going to do? Say "uh no im not that role" we spend time offing him and db and both die. In the situation now however he is already out in the open and no one was seriously speaking downsides or possibilities of him being of any alignment. As for you saying mafia doesn't get more from a check? He publically claims people are legit or not -_-. Sup confirmed townie kills? Hearing me or foolishness cleared as a confirmed town makes us far more likely to get shot by mafia and third parties. At the moment with people annoyed with me I stand far less of a chance getting capped by third party or mafia as town would prob do it for them. That is the difference. Confirmation of a player gives them better insight of who to shoot. Mafia knows who isn't mafia, but not who is third party. Someone really solid as third party is just as dangerous to town as to them, but its another person who will shoot town. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:38 sandroba wrote: Yes, I asked for people to claim the Tim role. Then I asked for SS to kill whoever shot YM and it gave us dead scum. How is that bad? Also I can see jackal's reasoning for claiming in that situation. It's null at best for me, it does not indicate that jackal is scum, because he could do the same thing as either aligment. In the mean time you have kita. He's not just asking questions. He's pushing suspicion on people that he doesn't even think are scum. There is no reason to do that as town, thus he must be scum. Why would jackal have to claim? People know harry potter lore. Voldy is always evil. People would have been hesitant to actually trust him. Except you apparently? he could have pm'd people using his mason ability and the like and found stuff that way. He opted to day 1 RC. Maybe he was scared, who knows, but it created a situation of chaos not helped get us back on serious track. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:38 Curu wrote: You don't know if he suffered his penalty or not Wiggles. It might just be he's roleblocked for tonight, who knows. BC, would you submit to having supersoft check you? Nope. As much as being confirmed town benefits town as a whole, it gets me shot by third party / mafia or some asshole townie who thinks they are being a hero. Instead I will risk getting shot anyway, but the likelyhood of a third party shot or red goes down whereas the option of a townie shooting me is higher. Any med with half a brain will realize I have been trying to make people think and not be stupid and might protect me. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:41 heist wrote: BC please. I really don't know why you are still arguing about this. We are not all idiotic. We can choose to ignore SS if we want. Him claiming town DOES NOT make him more town in our eyes. The risk is nothing and the advantage everything. Please read my argument about the confirmed townie bit if you are still arguing about that. I swear if you are doing this to make people think scum won't be vehemently arguing against something so pro-town, I will be very annoyed. I am doing this because from past games that I have played in, read and hosted people take dt checks of any kind like some rule of god. He is not confirmed and any check he reveals some people will take as legit. It also gives mafia / sk awesome snipe shots that will make his checks worthless anyway if he is in fact town. The cons far outweigh the pros. This is not day 3 or 4, we do not have a series of people who have proven themselves to be town. This is day 1 where we know nothing and should be basing all our decisions on what people say, not what some guy forces them to do. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:45 sandroba wrote: And thus he must be mafia??? Why are you even voting for him? Why is he a better lynch than kita? Keep in mind when I made my vote? I have more than 24 hours for a better lynch person to come along. At the time he was the scummiest option. As of now I see no reason to swap. Kita has done less scummy activity in my eyes than Jackal. If i had to swap my vote at this point I'd be analyzing 1 of the many people arguing with me. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:49 Curu wrote: So you're saying it hurts Town because Mafia will use his power to kill confirmed Towns. And yet you say we can't trust him so no one he says is green is a confirmed Town. Huh. You also said earlier that Townies should be most eager to get themselves checked: I guess you don't fall into that category. Acting scummy and Anti Town is less likely to get you killed than being confirmed Town. Hmm. You're so open to being checked here when you were in no real danger of being checked. Confirm that supersoft is likely not red yet unwilling to let him use his check for some farfetched reasons. We're lynching BC today folks. How about this curu. When I flip town you willingly submit to being lynched / vig shot. IF you are so sure in me you should easily be willing to die when you're wrong. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:48 heist wrote: Actually, this must be it. You are purposefully being stubborn to make yourself look suspicious to make scum go. "Oh hey, BC has half the town thinking he's scum. Let's leave him alone." /joke but seriously your only negative is that town will be stupid and misuse the information. That is not a good reason to not use the dt checks. thats the best reason actually. Almost every game people rely on dt checks the town follows them like they are an act of god. Normally thats not terrible as mafia don't have dts, but 3 factions could all have them. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:52 sandroba wrote: Let me say this. There is no advantage in NOT using the check. He is most likely town and will most likely end up dead at night. He wants to check you BC, why don't you oblige? Because then I do die tonight. See I have this thing called self preservation and when I get confirmed as green by your magic dt, I get shot. As mafia / sks will want a confirmed BC dead and an angry town vig who thinks im a gf, or some other scum flavoured role immune to alignment checks will shoot me. The check only makes sure I die. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:55 Curu wrote: How about this BC. You submit to being checked by supersoft, who you said is likely Town, and you don't get lynched today if he says you're green. You said the exact same thing I said in WaW2 to sandroba as scum rofl. Nice gambit, worked for me there, I hope it won't work for you here. The only reason you would say that unless you think I am 100% scum is to save yourself. I will agree only if you get lynched in my stead. You are pushing because you want me dead where if you go back and read my posts I am clearly town. You have pushed against me almost instantly behind my stance. Take the step. If i do what you ask, you get lynched / day vigi'd. | ||
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On July 26 2011 06:58 Curu wrote: So then if you're shot we know supersoft is legit. Because if Mafia is trusting his claims then they must be legit. You wanna pull out another WIFOM argument? You think I'm scum BC? What about everyone else who has disagreed with your faulty reasoning? Faulty? Lawl. You reason for wanting me dead is faulty. If your town and so sure I'm red then bet your life on it. Or are you afraid you're wrong. | ||
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On July 26 2011 07:00 sandroba wrote: BC, I don't care if you do or don't get shot at night. You apparently don't like your role so your job as townie is to get shot for the greater good. To survive is mafia/sk job. Town only cares about not getting lynched. Maybe if you get a green result in return you will atract both a shot and a medic tonight and help us even further. Anyway I still prefer a check on kita, on the off chance BC is being stubborn. What would you prefer? Me being my normal self, or me being insanely handicapped. Take your choice as thats what you get. My role actually handicaps my play completely. I merely have an option of using it or not. | ||
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On July 26 2011 07:01 syllogism wrote: Townies would never take that bet, that's absurd Really? If I am mafia or sk it would be a perfect bet for them. 1 random player to take down someone almost everyone in the game would mistrust or want dead if not on their team. How isn't that a good bet. Don't take a solid stance off faulty logic if you're afraid of the backlash. | ||
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On July 26 2011 07:02 Curu wrote: If I'm Town then I have no way to know you're red besides your scummy posting. Are you encouraging Townies to only push for lynches if they are 100% sure the person is red? Do you think I'm scum BC? I honestly haven't spent solid time analyzing you. I know from seeing your play in the past you make your cases against players on gut shots using meh reasoning and sometimes they net you a red sometimes they don't. However, everyone of my arguments has a singular point, and it is actually logical based on information from multiple games on TL. You could go read through some of them and maybe it would give you a greater understanding of why I am playing as I am. As for pushing for lynches. Yes, I honestly do believe you should only push for a lynch if you believe someone is red. Doing so because you think someone might be is horrible play. Even if you think they are red and they aren't shows you at least have convictions to stand behind the lynch, as in those cases you get suspected heavily for the bad lynch. If you are right you are a better target for reds and third parties. If you aren't willing to stand behind the lynch you want to start, you aren't actually sure of my guilt which would mean you would be starting a terrible bandwagon. | ||
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On July 26 2011 07:19 Curu wrote: Town can never be sure of your guilt. What I am sure of is you are the scummiest player thus far to me, so to me you have the highest chance of flipping red. That makes you the best lynch and that is why I am pushing for you. If you don't think I'm scum then there's no possible Pro Town reason for proposing your bet besides to shake pressure off yourself by making yourself appear willing to die. I know your thought process, I did this exact same thing to sandroba. Why are you so sure getting yourself checked by supersoft will get you killed? You yourself said that behavioral analysis rather than power is far more important, so by your logic scum would much rather kill the most effective scum hunters rather than someone who was "cleared' by a completely unreliable (in your words) power. You don't want supersoft to use his power because we can't rely on it, but you also don't want supersoft to use his power because it will confirm someone as Town for Mafia to kill? Your ideas are completely contradictory. I stand by my read that you are the best lynch today. If you really want to promote the atmosphere that Town should never try to lynch unless they are 100% sure the person is guilty, then we sit on our asses waiting for DTs to win the game for us (oh hey, but you don't want the confirmed DT to use his power either). Should we just no lynch every day then? My ideas aren't contradictory as I have never said I believe he is 1 alignment type. The only people who have knowledge about his alignment are mafia. So you say mafia are more likely going to shoot scum hunters. Dont you think if one of those players gets confirmed by a dt they are going to shoot them? If you answer with No then you need serious thinking done. He is unreliable for town as we don't know the legitimacy of any of his checks unless he dies / we have a confirmed dt vouch for him. As his checks would be public mafia get a far better read on all of his checks, as do sk's. As for ever being 100% of guilt? Yes you can actually. If over the course of a game someone has been clearly anti town, links to mulitple dead reds or the like You can be 100% certain they are guilty. Peoples play can clearly paint them red for logical reasons as theyw ere furthering mafia goals realizing it or not and get lynched and still flip town. You may not know for sure they are mafia but they can still be guilty of furthering their goals. As for no pro town reason for my bet? It tests your convictions. If you are so uneasy about believing your own instincts then why would you push the lynch anyway. Also, never assume you know my mind in how I think, I can easily say you don't. | ||
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On July 26 2011 07:23 heist wrote: OK, I would really like everyone else's opinion on giving Jackal just the stone night 1 (assuming he isn't lynched). Stone gives him ability to protect 1 person at night. To reiterate: If jackal is town, ADVANTAGE: He gets to protect somebody. DISADVANTAGE: None. If Jackal is scum, ADVANTAGE: None. DISADVANTAGE: He has a chance to save his scum buddy. BUT think about it. What are the chances he correctly predicts who's getting targeted by the 3rd Party? That's if the 3rd Party happens to hit mafia. Town shouldn't be shooting on whims anyway. If we all agree to night vigi someone, we can take away the stone. This is only for night 1. I don't trust him, but if town allows him to live then I suggest we give him the protective ability. Right now the risks are very small if he's scum, and good payout if he's town. If hes scum you just made a scum medic. If hes town he gets to protect someone. These are If's. Until you know his alignment why would you advocate giving him anything? If you have the power to potentially deny a mafia or third party a power, why would you not do it? If he is town he has the ability to mason someone which is powerful as it is. | ||
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On July 26 2011 07:29 Curu wrote: Well he has to be one alignment type or the other. If Mafia is using his reads to hit confirmed Town, then that's our signal that supersoft is reliable. And we are using him to check the scummiest and most suspicious players. If Mafia wants to take them out, then so be it, they're the poorest targets for hits anyways and already the most unreliable/worst scumhunters. how is it a signal for him to be reliable. Red him confirms me as green, mafia shoots me for now being confirmed while keeping him alive longer. He then say confirms another big player and again says green and the guy dies. He checks a red says green red next day claims vet, or med save, etc... a confirmed vet scumhunter is far deadly to mafia than an unconfirmed one. Also the situation you gave again gives credit to SS to being reliable when it doesnt make him so, a forced role use does not mean legit user. Thats like saying because a mafia claims vig and you force him to shoot a red that makes him town, when it in fact just makes him a bitter resentful mafia who will stab you in the back at a moments notice. | ||
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On July 26 2011 07:32 sandroba wrote: BC, let's assume ss is scum. How does an aligment check benefits him? Also, you don't seem conviced Kita is scum. Would you oppose a aligment check on him? -_- they benefit him by A) giving info that regardless if you think it does or not, it helps "confirm" his legitimacy. It doesnt B) It lures town into false control of a role C) It sets up a slope of trusting someone we shouldn't trust D) It allows mafia to control general thoughts on rolechecks / lets them manipulate town as a whole There are more reasons but you should get the idea. An unconfirmed aligned dt's checks could be legit or not when he gives us the answers but if 1-2 of those checks turn up legit people will assume that dt is town when it does not mean that at all. There is far to much emphasis put on dt's and giving the mafia a potential tool to control town is terrible. As such, why would I want him to check anyone? | ||
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On July 26 2011 07:34 Curu wrote: He doesn't choose who he's checking. We pick the targets for him out of the most suspect players. Oh, so now when he checks and fails to find reds for instance he is no longer responsible and all liablity that goes with his role is on someone else? Even better. | ||
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On July 26 2011 07:43 chaos13 wrote: Hmm...this is interesting. So what you're saying is that we would basically have to let him live if we want him to check people, but have to lynch him if we wanted to confirm his checks. That's something of a dilemma... Your entire theory is based on him actually being mafia though. On the one hand, we let him live while "checking" people's alignment. On the other, we let him live without being put in the spotlight with his checks. Or in a third scenario, we lynch him to confirm/refute his checks. If he flips town, we have truthful checks. If mafia, we just lynched scum and we can ignore all his 'checks'. The question is, which of these scenarios benefits us the most? And now someone isnt talking about lynching based off his checks, I think some lightbulbs might just be going on. | ||
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On July 26 2011 08:30 kitaman27 wrote: Humor me and tell me the reasoning anyways? On July 26 2011 05:45 deconduo wrote: Some people may have added some minor ones, and I may have let them slide. Maybe. | ||
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On July 26 2011 11:35 Mig wrote: BC would you say your 10 page argument was good for the town in anyway? If you fail to see any actual reasoning out of my posts then then I feel very sorry that you exist in your small world. Not only did it get people actually discussing the pros and cons of an unconfirmed dt, it generated discussion from multiple people. Moreso however, it prompted people to suddenly appear and jump onto a voting train with very little actual reasoning. I would say the bonus' of such an endeavour is always for the good of the town. Discussion never hurts town, nor do arguments. Especially when you keep them firmly isolated on a singular topic. | ||
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On July 26 2011 11:48 Mig wrote: Isolated on a singular topic which had nothing to do with finding scum. You lead the town in a discussion that took up 10 pages 8 hours and accomplished nothing. Saying discussion never hurts town is blatantly false. There is a big difference between a good discussion on suspects and the 10 page argument you had. Really? Everyone involved or concerned was busy herp derping around instead they argued constructively on how to use a particular role. At the end of that discussion we were all at a standstill. Then randomly a bunch of people who weren't even part of it, quickly jump in and say "bc is scum for refusing to comply to a check" however they don't comment on that topic, don't voice opinion instant bandwagon. Do you not realize you just got schooled? In that entire process we had 1 vote cast and suddenly hours after the discussion, and even after the discussion was even really taken place as no one was talking anymore, randoms come in to make a bandwagon? Fascinating isn't it? Anything that forces people to commit to an issue gives valuable behavioural analysis. Discussion of who is scummy etcc is all fine and dandy but these are the situations that make analysis easier. Anyone with a particular agenda will push it, scum will get heated and potentially slip up, etc... With how fast people try and will most likely still try to bandwagon me with absolutely no analysis of their own just shows how much mafia / third party want me dead. Townies will either find me a stubborn green or a potential scum. However considering that within 15 minutes we have votes from you, nisani, redff and supersoft. Awesome ain't it? that within 15 minutes 4 randoms all come to the same conclusion of who to vote for when everyone involved in the discussion throughout that 8 hours couldn't? Well done my friend, keep stepping on those eggshells. | ||
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On July 26 2011 11:54 Mig wrote: And BC I fully understand your reasoning behind your arguments. I don't care that much about them. What I care about is why it wasn't obvious to you after a few pages that the discussion was just going in circles. So instead of ending it so the town could discuss more productive things you continued the pointless argument. As far as I am concerned you took away 8 hours that the town could have been using to actually look at potential suspects. because the more you argue the more likely someone if they are scum will slip up? That is a fairly common tactic used to lure people out. Also factor in people were actually seeing merit in some of my points near the end when no one saw merit in them originally. Also, no one raised a better subject. People wanted to tunnel kita or jackal, but it all stemmed at that point from how to use a dt's check. That was unproductive as well. It was actually a topic in which mafia could easily blend in, instead a topic that is not easy to blend in was pushed and people had to voice actual opinions on it. Look at the people pushing to lynch me? Redff used arguments I HAVE ALREADY REFUTED as his logical grounds for lynching. Yet he still wrote a giant block of text of shite i've already debunked. Awesome. You are also pushing that I die based on an assumption our dt is legit. So was red, wait, how would you actually know hes a town aligned dt? extra information that you have eh? nice to know. How about inform the town how you know the actual alignment of SS and then we progress forward. Before you deny your claim of it. On July 26 2011 10:17 Mig wrote: C) Pushed hard for our dt, that killed a scum, to not use his checks. We obviously shouldn't blindly follow the checks but there is very little downside to at least having him check people. Even if we don't act on them, it can serve as an amazing breadcrumb. If supersoft dies and flips town we would know all his checks were true. Incredibly anti town to not at the very least have SS use his checks. ##vote BloodyC0bbler As for who SS should check, BC should 100% not be checked. If he is mafia he is 99% the GF. So the next best candidate for a check is kita. | ||
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On July 26 2011 12:02 Mig wrote: I won't deny your point about red/nisani. Their arguments and reasons they used to vote for you are not good. However I make no apologies for my reasons for voting for you. In my experience when playing against extremely good mafia players one of the main tactics they use is to lead the town away from productive scum hunting. I mean you are really think 10 pages of you/syllo/sandroba/curu arguing game mechanics helped the town? Did you learn much about their possible alignments from it? It appears to me that the last 3 pages where people began actually voting and giving their reasons has given us 50x the information that your 8 hour argument did. I lead them away from productive scum hunting? There was none. Stop bullshiting. You also completely ignored the fact post restrictions were brought up by me, you also failed to mention how next to no one was even discussing the potential possibility of SS being non town, you fail to mention how other members showed similar issues near the end of the argument. Those people may still believe its better to use the dt but you get the point. Positive discussion was generated that you are now trying to downplay. Also the most recent 3 pages gave information on you, red, nisani and SS. The 8 hour discussion gave information on everyone who participated. Perhaps you should learn to read every post rather than skimming and concentrating only where you participate. All the last few pages have done is throw dirt at 4 people. | ||
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On July 26 2011 12:07 Mig wrote: If you want to lynch me because I said our dt instead of the dt go ahead lol. I am actually throwing a FoS at you for using it. It is actually a common mistake for people who have extra information to infer it in a manner such as you did. As it is more natural to type "our dt" if you know his alignment. | ||
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On July 26 2011 12:16 Mig wrote: What information did you gather about the alignments of the people you argued with? I would like to hear it. The discussion we are having now is productive. Arguing actual cases against people makes them take sides, generates connections and forces people to come up with actual reasoning and analysis behind their cases. Anyone regardless of alignment can argue game mechanics. I read all 10 pages of the discussion and I took very little of value away from it. It is also a common mistake for people who don't know alignments but are simply biased about what alignment they think the person is to make. But if you want to make a case against me based on me using the word "our" instead of "the" instead of actually analyzing whether I am mafia from my motivations and posts go ahead. You can want to hear many things. Until I decide to make a case against them or not you won't get it. This isn't some magical pm game where I can bounce ideas off someone and it not leave that environment. Any thought put in the thread can be potentially used to screw someone unjustly later. So until I find someone scummy enough to pursue my thoughts will stay with me. As for common mistake? Its human nature to use words that infer information you do or don't have. You opted for one that suggested insight to someones role. I am sure you will be more careful in the future. | ||
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On July 26 2011 12:37 Mig wrote: So right now the only thing anyone knows about you is that you want jackal lynched based on role flavor, you like to argue game mechanics and you do not want SS to check you. You said several times in the 10 page argument that it should be obvious that you are town. How exactly can anyone know you are town? You haven't done an analysis on a single person the entire game. And now that I ask for information you deny it, claiming you will make a case against someone once you find one scummy enough. You are more than willing to spend a lot of time defending yourself but I don't see you doing any scum hunting or even discussing any of jackal's recent behavior or the arguments people like syllo made defending him. Did you not notice how i mentioned earlier I was willing to swap to someone I felt better about but hadn't yet? No that would require you reading my posts. However, the game is about catching scum, not about someone giving their opinion on who feels more town than another player, or who feels slightly scummier than x. Without more information its like randomly drawing a bad choice from a selection of meh choices. How many people in this game are even talking? How many are even weighing in on the conversation at hand, who has outright dodged comments directed at them? I am fairly transparent where it matters. The game is not lets find townies, its lets find red. As of now I don't have any strong enough reads to properly push a lynch target. This is an issue that has been stated multiple times by multiple people. You only list off people you are confident enough at the time to lynch, not randomly spout names. | ||
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On July 26 2011 12:50 Amber[LighT] wrote: Are you serious? What more against Jackal do you need? Him defending himself to be honest. I'm kinda tired of seeing others do it for him. | ||
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On July 26 2011 13:01 Mig wrote: I am not asking you to give me your town reads or slight scum reads. I asked how anyone was supposed to know you were town. When you spend all of your time A) defending yourself and B) talking game mechanics it seems like you are playing a very self oriented game. You have taken a stand on no one. And apparently there isn't a single person in the game you feel is suspicious enough to warrant an analysis. Yet despite these things you claimed it was very obvious that you were town. I could have placed my vote on you and then disappeared. I am discussing with you because I am gathering information to hopefully make the best decision possible. Right now I don't see anything that makes me want to put my vote onto someone else. I will agree it is shady that no one else is commenting though. Amber/kita/etc surely someone else out there must have an opinion. I say its obvious as my town play is very unique and fairly obvious. Go compare it to almost every game I've been town. I am not here to explain my role to people. It is obvious. I am not being obtuse, I am not shutting down conversation. I am embracing it and being fairly open. As i said to curu either. If you intend to push someone to their death you better be damn sure of your convictions. If town misslynches its on the first few people who really pushed it on that misslynch. I am not about to sit here and go "so and so is scummy for lurking" when almost everyone is doing it. Also, very self oriented game? I have done nothing but try and push what I view is the best course of action. And rather than just push it, I explain it. Yep sounds very mafia like. | ||
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On July 26 2011 13:21 Mr. Wiggles wrote: How does Jackal defend himself from his role PM though? That's what I don't get. Unless there's another reason to be voting for him, or you really think he faked parts of it. Care to explain your stance on him a little bit for me? How about he posts? instead of lurk insanely hard he could be doing anything productive. As for the stance, it seems very odd to call out a player (he called out ON) for lying based on his role pm. His stance was one of "he is lying my pm says he is disguised as town" which would infer red. That entire claim got ON killed. He flipped town. Jackal then vanished into unknown land. Someone got shot over this entire situation yet the people who ask questions or FoS the guy responsible are getting questioned more heavily than the person responsible. TL towns are awesome. | ||
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On July 26 2011 13:28 redFF wrote: Bc ignored this post. Then posts this. K so if he inspects you you will be confirmed town, but increases the chance to be shot at by scum/blacks. Then you say that you would like medic protection, surely if you are confirmed town you are more likely to get medic protection? Quote supersoft so you can be alignment checked. If you keep ignoring this issue then i will get you lynched. Then be prepared to be killed in retribution. I will flip town, I have no need to be checked to know this, and anyone with a damn brain could see my alignment as well. Factor in a dt who isn't confirmed town's check isn't actually useful in clearing anyone. Would it make you feel better? possibly, but thats not very smart of you. | ||
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Don't worry though, when I did and flip town, vigi's will have a list of people to sort out. Stress to all vigi's. EVERYONE who votes for me is on your shooting list. The mafia will use this as their chance to drop one of the few players that actually scares them shitless as such don't waste the opportunity. As for who should take a hit out of you before the others. Dropbear/redff/jackal all stand out extremely high on lists. | ||
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On July 26 2011 23:38 Palmar wrote: Just stop arguing with BC guys, it's been 12-13 pages already, despite his protestations we are going to use the check, which is why we're basically just playing a waiting game for supersoft to come back now. Syllo, this isn't a normal game, this is the real thing. This is one of the core reasons that using his check is asinine. No one is actually looking for a solid lynch target without said check. An unconfirmed dt with unconfirmed results dictating how the town should proceed. This shows that in those 13 pages that you barely commented on that you know how to fit in. I expect better out of you palmar. | ||
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On July 27 2011 01:13 Curu wrote: BC do you think we should no lynch today? You're discouraging people from building cases unless they are 100% sure, but no one can be 100% sure on Day 1. I notice your vote is on Jackal, do you mind giving your reasons? I notice your vote is still on me and your reasons for doing so where meh? Care to explain your reasons in detail using arguments that haven't been used before / already defeated? How about instead of asking the person who's spent the entire thread defending their stance almost singularly against almost everyone to put up your lynch target. How about you realize that all you did as a group was confirm me as non mafia. Name me a game where day 1 where 1 person defended himself almost completely solo they flipped red. Then name me 2 in the offchance you find one. Does it not confuse you that a player much like myself would get pretty well 0 help in all this? Mafia wouldn't want to lose me if I was on their team. No third party would stick their head out like I am. As for discouraging cases until they are 100% sure? Look at today and what its gotten us. I have someone voting for me based on arguments shot down / used an opening post rule that decon already debunked in thread as his original lynch vote. How does that make you feel? People jumped a bandwagon, made up bullshit and vanished. Jackal claimed his job kept him from playing, made a few posts and voted for me. He never answered really any questions and has vanished again. Maybe I should play the I work card? Or maybe I should play the "ima lurk card" and get away with shit too. Surprisingly in the position of being killed by a group of morons I am not inclined to help you. This will say nothing about my alignment as you will say only a mafia would resign to death and not help. However it is merely pride. If you want to kill one of your best resources purely because you're bad, I don't intend on helping you. I will comment that through this entire situation the people you guys are waiting for IE supersoft with that check has gone strangely silent again. Curious that the dt you wanted to use so badly isn't even around to give you the result eh? Stop tunneling and start thinking. | ||
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On July 27 2011 01:37 kitaman27 wrote: Voting for BC because 1) I enjoy watching him die 2) He refuses to submit to an alignment check Others should be forced to quote SS. There are a surprisingly few people who are willing to submit to it. Lawl best reasoning evar. | ||
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On July 27 2011 01:46 Curu wrote: You were the first to vote for Jackal BC. On a policy (lynch liars). You're up for lynch yourself now on a policy (lynch people refusing to get checked). You say that starting a bandwagon on you is stupid because none of us are sure you are scum, but you started the bandwagon on Jackal as well. So do you feel strongly enough about lynching Jackal that you'll be a Vig hit or next lynch if he flips green? Because you think he lied about his role PM. That's your conviction for starting the wagon on him? And to answer your own question, no one defended redFF in your own game and he turned out scum. Re read the game. You will find that two mafia currently dead spent time attempting to redirect the lynch and push other points. He was being defended you just didn't see it. As for general stance. I clarified earlier that I would support a better lynch. I also voted based on something I feel is a lie. Ie its a policy lynch. You can lynch me all you want for not submiting to an unconfirmed dt check, and when I flip you will not only facepalm but be held accountable for my lynch. It will be actually priceless to see your reaction then. | ||
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On July 27 2011 01:51 syllogism wrote: BC will you rather die than submit to the check? I'm finding it increasingly difficult not to vote for you as every post contains, in my opinion, bizarre logic that is not compatible with pro-town play and you must know it. You'll rather martyr than submit to a check by a player that is almost certainly not mafia? The only thing that's giving me second thoughts is that I just can't see your scum play being this bad and there indeed is almost no resistance to your lynch Let me ask you this. He was around last night to get the required quotes from kita and for a fact I know eiii the co host was online around this time. However, the results of the check on kita you wanted so badly were never returned. Also I have no issue submitting to a check, just not by a source that will mean next to dick all. Seriously your saying hes almost certaintly not red? Perhaps your right, but that doesn't mean hes town. Why would you trust so much in a dt role that you don't know the alignment of. None of the checks are actually trustworthy. So say I submit, he says i'm town. Next logical step is what? Say "ok guess bc is town" or would it be "we have like 5 hours left in day, might as well lynch him anyway". Instead, I flip town, everyone who votes for me is suspect and vigi's can clear them out. There are definitely mafia and third party on my vote and as such town will net themselves easy kills. me for 2-3 anti town is a good trade. As for bizarre logic? My play is fairly standard me, just as how I operate. Anyone who has played multiple games with me knows my style as red and green are completely different so re reading any previous game I was town would have been the similarities. | ||
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On July 27 2011 01:57 Palmar wrote: I don't even... So every game you play BC, do you always wait for every unconfirmed DT to be checked by another DT? Who was confirmed by what means? Supersoft KILLED SCUM, that's good enough for me and should be good enough for you. I'm just going to vote for you until you let him check you. Well thats good then cause I will die. As for unconfirmed dt to be checked by another? No. However this is a gamesetup where there are roles like dt, medic, vig, etc... that could be on all three teams. You say he killed a scum? Guess what, the consensus was YM was town, or at least town oriented and he died to Tim Roth. Supersoft didn't then claim it wasn't him and kill the person responsible. No, Drop bear risked a penalty to his own role (which is telling about his role), to force Supersoft into the open. If he had claimed he had taken that shot, he'd be getting lynched right now. Instead his only option to save himself was literally do what the town wants. So he revenge shot and we got a red killed. He didn't do this himself, he was forced into it. He doesn't get credit for a dead red. If anyone in the situation did it would be drop bear. His play since then is kinda bleh but risking a penalty that would net a dead red seems odd play from a red. Do you see the issue? here On July 27 2011 01:59 Palmar wrote: By the way, just for reference, Fishball claimed cop in CCM, and he was in no way confirmed, but in that game BC was willing to lie, because he was convinced that Fishball was telling the truth. He was willing to falsely confirm a cop claim he believed, because that's how much he trusted Fishball's claim. I just have no idea how this does even fly, and the constant threats that anyone who votes for you will be held accountable. I'll be the first person to be held accountable for you, I want you checked, or dead. You are right, I did do that. Perhaps if you played with fishball you would realize why. He has a meta whenever he has a gun. Its kill BC. First move he always does is kill me if he can. If he can't he will opt to do the next best thing, which is work with me. He posted check results clearing me? Why the hell wouldn't i try to make his claim legit, I knew it was. He pinned two alignments correctly and thus was the confirmation. That game was also a setup where mafia had near 0 chance of having a dt, as well as fishball would not have claimed dt at that point in time if he didnt think it was neccesary. Mafia fishball would have let town keep herp derping rather than try to organize it. As for me dying. Sadly you don't get to be held accountable. You didn't start the bandwagon. Curu did, and then 4 people voted on within 15 minutes of eachother. All hours after the discussion finished, 3 of which used terrible and flawed reasoning. Mig gets a pass for at least debating. Redff/nisani/SS all dive in, dont post solid reasons and dive out. Yet no one comments on this? Everyone should go back and read posts accusing me, and realize I am actually talking to you. Rather than pushing someone into my place im pushing accountability onto people who put me in mine. This is far more productive at this point in time than trying to force a bandwagon change in the last 5 hours. Also keep in mind as you all said I wasted time with the argument yesterday, notice that once i stopped arguing you are no closer to doing any real work finding a lynch target. So the only point of time that the day has shown any progress or any situation posting has been heavy I was involved. Almost everyone else seems content to lurk. | ||
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On July 27 2011 02:06 syllogism wrote: If you are town, it shouldn't even matter to you what supersoft's alignment is, if submitting to the check is the only thing that can save you from the lynch. Aside the unlikely scenario of there being a day framer (I consider this very unlikely as players tend to make roles that can be useful to town), there's really no downside for BC the townie, especially if we can keep people from blindly trusting Supersoft's checks in future. If there's no framer and supersoft lies, we can vigi or lynch him next. Why would I submit to a check that I don't agree with just to save myself? If you guys won't see logic or at least take a step back and look at things from my perspective then there is no point. Also, as you don't know the nature of my role, you don't know if there is a downside or not. You are also basing this entire scenario off your magical dt being here? Guess what, he doesn't appear to be. | ||
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On July 27 2011 02:15 Kurumi wrote: Bc sorry but I must vote on You ... Your role sounds horribly evil lol | ||
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On July 27 2011 02:22 Curu wrote: Come on man, do you really think supersoft's role was useful enough for him to sacrifice Tackster instead of himself? An alignment check for Mafia and 1 KP the entire game. And no, people were suspecting YM. supersoft could easily have cleared himself by saying he thought YM was scum, I doubt he would have been lynched for it. And in any case, 100% chance of losing a Mafia (Tackster) and still having the lynch open vs less than 100% chance of losing a Mafia (if supersoft was Mafia, and no guarantee supersoft would have been lynched) and tying up the lynch, it's obvious that supersoft acted with only Pro Town intentions. If you were so willing to believe Fishball was Town because of some Meta reasons (oh when he's not Town then he kills me) then I can't see any reason you can't believe supersoft is Town for much more solid reasons. My vote's staying on BC. Your OMGUS (Vigs kill everyone who is voting for me) doesn't help. Based on your pressure my "OMGUS" isn't meant to help you, its meant to kill you when I flip town. Your the head of my lynch as such you get offed when I flip town. Accountability is awesome. | ||
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On July 27 2011 02:34 Curu wrote: lol BC, I just can't see any single thing you do as Pro Town. Now you're encouraging people to be afraid to scumhunt and put pressure on anyone. You were the head of Jackal's lynch, you were so sure he was scum that you were willing to be held accountable if he flipped green? In any case I think this matter is closed, talking with BC is going nowhere. He is my preferred lynch target for today. Lots of people not posting at all during the massive BC argument and still not posting. *shrugs* if you can't see it your just bad. But thats fine with me. | ||
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On July 27 2011 03:10 sandroba wrote: We have 3 hours to sort this shit out. fucking supersoft and jackal dissapear. nice I'm still here! | ||
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You have all been so centered on me you have let the other "suspects" of the day vanish into obscurity. The main reason for people wanting to kill me (SS"s Check) is also at this time unavailable as he isn't even around. Since I have been accused, only two players have stayed in thread for a decent duration rather than jump in, vote and vanish. These two are curu and Mig. Out of almost everyone else on the bandwagon to kill me, lets take a look at redff, supersoft, jackal, kita and nisani. They all appeared very very briefly in thread and have since vanished. Nisani posted a quick post quoting one of mine and disappeared almost completely after that. Red jumped on my bandwagon with a large post of information already refuted (at least by my opinion) and has pretty well disappeared. Jackal and Kita, who were both suspects early on into the day (jackal being the second highest in votes) both of them have completely vanished. Jackal has yet to appear to even attempt to seriously defend himself, instead he threw an accusation at me and wandered off. Finally we have supersoft, the dt you all love. His check has been the single biggest thing that people want me killed for. Yet for arguments sake, even If i were to say "yes do it" hes not even here to perform it, thus making it 100% certain I will die via lynch. Why would a player who knows everyone is debating around the use of his role opt to let other people defend him rather than ever enter the discussion and attempt to persuade me or anyone else having doubts of his legitimacy. Why is he completely afk when almost the entire day thus far has centered completely around his role? People please go back and seriously read through this thread. With all the tunneling done on me you have all failed to even mention the huge scummy activity by other players. | ||
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On July 27 2011 04:35 supersoft wrote: okay i am back. Jackal, may i have some quoting action please? fucking get this over with. | ||
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>.> <.< | ||
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meh 1 more for good measure. | ||
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On July 27 2011 04:57 Curu wrote: Yes, yes it would. And in return we won't use supersoft's alignment checks to judge people until he shows a red. Any green checks he gets are taken with a grain of salt. Fair enough? I can tolerate that. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:12 redFF wrote: Thankyou BC, Jackal is the lynch I think ebcause he refused to be checked and is the opposite and rival to an already flipped town role. I don't think BC has been productive and his arguing has dominated the thread in such a way that has prevented decent discussion, jackal s the lynch. check bC ##VOte jckal welcome back from lurker limbo. | ||
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1 red for bc is worth the trade it seems. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:25 Lanaia wrote: Are we sure he's not miller? I was fairly sure he was town, too. :/ changing vote. I'm either miller, or he is red. Take your pick. Based on how hesitant he was about using his check so on and so forth. Chances are he is red or third party. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:26 redFF wrote: ##unvote ##vote BC lol proved my point about bc ignoring the check. lawl. Dont worry, my flip will amuse you. YOu will instantly see why I me being confirmed town was a horrible idea. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:28 heist wrote: wow. was not expecting that. BC you see how this forces our hand. Actually? If i was red, I still never would have agreed to the check. Moles appear as town until they turn into reds, so the only role I can be is miller. However, you all just proved my point completely about SS. Have fun playing games with your magical unreliable dt. The good ones hopefully will save your ass as they ahve been trying to from the getgo. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:30 supersoft wrote: the result of my check indicates one of these roles. if you don't trust me, keep in your mind, that i shot tracker. As of right now you don't find moles actually. Just saying. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:30 supersoft wrote: the result of my check indicates one of these roles. if you don't trust me, keep in your mind, that i shot tracker. Also you shot him after you were called out. You aren't confirmed you dumb fuck. Surprisingly your legitness was going to be confirmed night 1, sadly that no longer happens. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:30 sandroba wrote: Man if BC flips miller I'm going to be pissed. Why did you not check kita? Its the only flip I can have at this point. However if i flip miller decon's a total asshole -_-. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:32 Mr. Wiggles wrote: What happened to checking a random and ignoring the checks for now? If BC flips green, I'm going to be pissed. The only way this makes sense in my mind, is if BC is miller, SS is lying scum, or BC is some kind of mass vengeance role. nah, my role is terrible. if im still goign to die a few minutes before lynch I'll claim. I'm not going to use it to save my ass. | ||
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Anyone using the retarded logic of "he got framed, ss is legit" is full of shit. Drop bear forced him into claiming and I would have had SS on the lynch docket had he not used his shot. So far DB has not actually claimed his penalty, nor has SS been confirmed as town. Redff/dropbear/jackal/kita/nisani. Are all excellent night shots for you all tonight. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:39 heist wrote: Don't worry, SS is dying for sure if you flip green. when I flip green and even if i flip miller, you kill him. If i flip green and he flips green you know framer and to ignore all dt checks till framer is killed. However that scenario costs town more heavily than anything else. shame only a few people can find a framer if he exists. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:41 Curu wrote: Day Framer seems like such an out-there idea. Did one of you really create a day Framer? just as a fuck ton of day vigi's seemed like an out there idea. I'm giving possibilities. am I right? No clue. You will find out if i flip vanilla green, and then he does. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:43 heist wrote: Look BC all my gut instincts and your behavior is telling me you are not scum. But if the mafia are prepared to give us a 1 for 1 trade, then I'm willing to follow through. If you end up miller however, I can't really see how that faults SS. Actually with my role, thats a terrible trade for town. It is awesome for mafia, just not town. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:44 redFF wrote: why am i a good night shot for thinkng you are scum? because I'm not. You voted for me early on with near proximity to 4 other players which shitty reasoning. You were vote 3 or 4 on the original vote train. | ||
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Since you are their biggest fan, you cannot tolerate any harsh words against them. If anyone attacks or says anything negative about your idol you must defend them. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:52 Kurumi wrote: This is not even a role. I know, its like a stab to the gut, a punch to the face and then being pissed on. Who doesn't love shit roles. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:54 Curu wrote: LOL. YM got a super Jack with a day and night kill and BC gets a neutered Tracker/Watcher. I feel for you bro. I had a neutered medic last game. I honestly think people hate me and give me shit roles for luls. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:56 Palmar wrote: quick sandroba, if you have something to say. to me it looks like he can confirm his role, but that doesn't confirm his alignment nope, only death confirms anyone's alignment. Just as my flip will still say nothing of SS. Instead you lose another dt style role. Aren't you guys glad your an awesome town? | ||
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Strongly look at redff/dropbear/jackal/kita/nisani | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:58 heist wrote: BC you are so compelling. I really don't know what to do right now. If you believe im red, you kill me, if you don't you dont. There isn't enough time to save me however. | ||
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On July 27 2011 05:59 GMarshal wrote: Welcome to PTP games, where BC dies day 1 guaranteed. Rofl, its happened twice now! | ||
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On July 27 2011 06:00 supersoft wrote: you're check returned red - true story. I won't change my vote. And when I flip townie / miller you still look like shit. Deal with it. | ||
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GG. | ||
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On August 08 2011 05:36 deconduo wrote: Yeah, for PTP3 I'm going to be MUCH stricter with roles and hopefully it will be a better balanced game. stop letting people nerf bc! | ||
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On August 08 2011 05:38 Curu wrote: I don't think you should know who you're picking for. I entered the game with the impression that the most OP roles would be Mafia (and I was kinda right, youngminii was the only one who had a role that would be amazing for Mafia but was Town). I also knew I was stealing Foolishness's power as soon as I got my role cause I made that one OP as hell lol. What I had originally made for Palmar was OP as hell. However they tweaked it pretty thoroughly when he was made mafia. | ||
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