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@Palmar
Yes, you're right. I made a mistake in that post. It should have read '...is absolutely certain of prplhz' innocence'...because that you were sure of...you made a big post about it
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=9#175
Sorry about that, I was emotional at the time and didn't check my facts.
I'm still wary, but as I trust Mataza's read more than I suspect you IN PARTICULAR (I'm not done on prplhz, regardless of what Mata says lol), I'm dropping you off my Scum-list, to replace you with Karshe.
prplhz, Karshe
Thank you, that is all.
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In all honesty, the only thing that made me suspect you in the first place was A) your refusal to accept anything I wrote as worthy of noting (OMGUS) and B) the way you voted alone at the end of the day. Both of these smell scummy to me, but thus far Mataza has had the strongest reads and he thinks you're green. *shrug*
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@Karshe
You're not alone dude...I'm sure everyone but Maf will be surprised if one of us doesn't bite it tonight.
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If I get murdered tonight, I'd everyone to follow this link:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222568¤tpage=14#261
...and take a good long look. Mataza is one of the strongest players in the game and if he's not hit that means that I'm closer in my estimation than he is. I DOUBT it considering...but don't discount me because of my erratic methodology. Discount me if you think my theories don't hold water.
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Everlasting night...it's like a nightmare I once had...
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@Mataza
"At first i thought I would claim cop openly"....what did you mean by this?
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Why did Karshe die? As someone who I've been targeting heavily until now would probably put it,
This is a question that everybody should ask themselves.
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I'd like to say first that this game is incredibly interesting for as few active players as are in it.
Karshe died a terrible death at the hands of some crafty fellows. First, here is every post (save a few fluff posts that literally had no content...if someone calls me out for "Is there a seperate voting thread?" or something equally irrelevant I'm going to be very angry) that Karshe made in the game up until he cast his vote for Skrammen d1. Posts are in spoilers, summaries under spoilers.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2011 00:56 Karshe wrote:
Good morning all.
First post here, I have caught up with the thread.
As others have said, there's no real reason to suspect Mataza yet. The majority of us are fairly new to the game, and Mataza making the first "quality" post shouldn't be considered suspicious. The only thing to watch for is scum posting general tips/math to gain town cred while not actually helping our hunt. And yes, I realize I could qualify under that last statement. =P
Looking forward to scum hunting with you all. Hopefully we'll get lots of posts today and get to know everyone.
Very reasonable.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2011 01:53 Karshe wrote:Inactives are a mixed bag for me. I agree that lynching them isn't the wisest choice because there's a low chance they are mafia... but inactives also irritate me to no end. I understand that RL > TL and things come up, but why join the game if you're not going to play? It just ruins the spirit of the game for me and I have low tolerence/patience for inactives. That said, hopefully we're discussing this for no reason and we'll hear from everyone today. 
I like this guy already...and I already miss him.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2011 13:37 Karshe wrote:I am most definitely not getting mod killed, thank you. Just had a busy monday, and when I was on earlier, there weren't too many quality posts yet. I've got caught up, and here are my thoughts. I am most suspicious of Mataza right now. I wouldn't go as far to vote him, yet, but I have my reservations. Since this is openly a noobie game, this was my first thought going into the game: Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 00:56 Karshe wrote:
The only thing to watch for is scum posting general tips/math to gain town cred while not actually helping our hunt. And yes, I realize I could qualify under that last statement. =P
and this was one of Mataza's first posts: Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 12:16 Mataza wrote:
Small math problem.
12 day1
ly nk
10 day2
ly nk
8 day 3
ly nk
6 day4
So scum is forced to lay really low, if they ever want to stand a chance. To newer players to the game--myself somewhat included--this sounds like a foreign language and some may think, "Man, he knows what he's talking about... I better listen to what this guy has to say." I propose that was Mataza's intention for posting the math so early on. Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:49 Mataza wrote:
I am curious what these various questions. So far I only gathered one:
"Tell us why you´re/you´re not mafia!"
I very well might be mafia, as everyone of you might be mafia too. But I can´t go ahead and tell you my plans before half the people posted, because then these plans wouldn´t work.(Since mafia would know what to do or what not to do.)
About the inactives:
Dependant on the number of inactives, it´s not a bad idea to lynch them.
Low activity means they aren´t really helping the town and therefore it´s not a big loss. We wouldn´t lose any amount of discussion.
But we can´t do that right now, because a) the day isn´t nearly over and b) there are too many.
But people who do not post/do no vote are modkilled at the end of the cycle. One of Mataza's next longer posts, which can be summarized to rephrasing things that have already been said I would argue that even for a noobie game, a lot of this is stating common sense. Yes, we know you could be mafia. That's how the game works. I feel this is another example of gaining town cred while not actually contributing. It looks as though my main argument was also noticed by Giygas (to give credit where credit is due): Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 15:52 GiygaS wrote:
Mhm, and you've also mentioned the Mafia's purported strategy, which is to stay under the radar. Something you haven't done. If you wanted someone to go off the path of finding the mafia, you would say that the strategy they would perform would be completely opposite to what you were doing. Also, you were the first one to make basic rules to know HE IS THE MAFIA. I believe that Mataza attempted to put an early notion into newer players heads that mafia will attempt to lay as low as possible, while he himself is a mafia and one of the most active posters. My initial gut feeling thus far is that Giygas is town. I feel as though he has done a great job at generating discussion without having done anything I can point out as shady. I haven't made a decision on VisceraEyes yet, for now he is an active poster and I would personally rather lynch an inactive compared to a helpful/active poster on Day 1, if that's what it comes down to. Sorry to wrap this up short but I haven't eaten dinner yet. I will check in before bed for updates.
First actual content post. Mostly suspicious of Mataza. Misread on GiygaS. Still not sure on VisceraEyes.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 01:14 Karshe wrote:I see no reason we should worrying about the game set up on Day 1, since we have no way of knowing what game type we're playing. I, too, questioned Mataza's early cop claim, but was hesitant to bring light to it. I'm not sure I buy your reasoning, and there's always LAL (lynch all liars). I'm not convinced you're mafia yet, but I'll be keeping an eye on your posts. Taking a look at others, I am growing increasingly suspicious of Palmar. Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 00:54 Palmar wrote:
I'm more worried about the quiet people, it's only been 13 hours or so, but we're still missing half the town in the action.
If people don't post people don't make mistakes. So please type in a few sentences so we know you're alive Getting easy town cred while not really contributing and just saying, "where is everyone?" Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:50 Palmar wrote:
Why would it take effort to create a first post? Even if you say something completely retarded it's fine as long as you have nothing to hide. Barring revealing a blue power role, anything you say in your first post will just be that... a simple first post.
Not contributing. Then, his most eye raising act, he then takes it upon himself to defend Mataza, the town's biggest point of discussion, while pointing a completely random finger away from Mataza. And I mean, he really defends Mataza. My only concern is if both Mataza and Palmar were scum, Palmar wouldn't be defending Mataza so blantantly (and oddly). I'll be keeping an eye on your posts as well. To finish with: I am still not sold on Gigyas being scum, but it may be at this point that I'm just taking Mataza's posts with a grain of salt. I will re-read Gigyas' posts in a bit with an open mind.
Suspicious of Palmar, restatement of suspicion of Mataza
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 01:21 Karshe wrote:Also, I wanted to say, Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 22:04 Palmar wrote:
@purplehaze... you're an idiot, but you're not scum, or at least you're not an obvious scum. There's no need for that. This a openly a noobie game, many of us are still learning the ropes... there's no need for name calling. All it will do is discourage further posting and create a negative atmosphere. We're all here to have fun lynching mafia, right?
What a stand-up guy...
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 03:27 Karshe wrote:Hi Skrammen, We're glad you were able to make it, but we need you to post more information. If you're thinking you will not be able to play as a result of real life, you can request a replacement. Otherwise, we will need you to post more analysis and not just bandwagon... or you risk being lynched as a result of being a non-helpful townie.
Warning to Skrammen.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 05:18 Karshe wrote:Not enough discussion today, getting worried. To reiterate what Palmar has said, Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 02:23 Palmar wrote:
But I'd rather have to filter through tons of bad information injected by mafia, than having no information at all and just playing a guessing game. and my own stance on Day 1: Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 01:53 Karshe wrote:
Inactives are a mixed bag for me. I agree that lynching them isn't the wisest choice because there's a low chance they are mafia... but inactives also irritate me to no end. I understand that RL > TL and things come up, but why join the game if you're not going to play? It just ruins the spirit of the game for me and I have low tolerence/patience for inactives.
I have a low tolerance for inactive players. I am still very suspicious of Mataza, but I would much rather have him in the game and posting consistantly compared to someone who posts once in this thread and once in the vote thread. Lynching an inactive poster may not give us very much information on Day 2, but I believe it will help us in the long run because we will have more information to dissect from active players in future days. So, my intetion is to vote for an inactive as we get closer to night time. I'm allowing more time for those inactive to post some analysis, or request a replacement.
Keepin it real. No surprises.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 07:22 Karshe wrote:
As for my vote, I still intend to vote for an inactive for reasons I've already stated, but I wanted to give as much time as possible to allow for them to speak up.
I feel like we've got some scum lurking and waiting to put in a last minute vote to bandwagon whoever the town has decided on.
More statement of intent to lynch inactives.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 08:21 Karshe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 07:41 Mataza wrote:
Karshe may have jumped on the bandwagon so late that it passes by unnoticed, but he said he sounded sure Giygas is town and I am mafia.
After he noticed the bandwagon was dead, he instantly dropped suspicion on me and now wants to lynch inactives. By now I am pretty sure that no mafia is inactive, but instead very outspoken. I haven't bandwagon'd anyone, including you. I still have suspicions that you are mafia, I have not dropped anything at all. However, what I have said is: Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 05:18 Karshe wrote:
I have a low tolerance for inactive players. I am still very suspicious of Mataza, but I would much rather have him in the game and posting consistantly compared to someone who posts once in this thread and once in the vote thread.
Lynching an inactive poster may not give us very much information on Day 2, but I believe it will help us in the long run because we will have more information to dissect from active players in future days.
I would rather vote an inactive who isn't contributing anything to the fun/game at all, rather than someone (you) who I believe to be shady but at least is actively participating. I have already stated why: we may have less information on Day 2, but more information in the future. To answer purplehaze's question from earlier, if I had to pick a Day 2 lynch right now, it would be Mataza. I feel like you're trying to derail every lynch attempt, and you yourself have said: Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 02:01 Mataza wrote:
Common sense: Active mafia will try to disrupt town conversation. I still question your motives as well. So far you have been quoted as saying "Mafia will try to lurk!" while being the most active poster, and now you're saying, "Mafia are bandwagoning! By the way, I have never bandwagoned!" *wink wink nudge nudge* I am about to leave for work, I will vote for an inactive in 30 minutes when I get home if they have not posted yet.
Defending his decision to Mataza, reinforcing his suspicion in the process. At this point I'm surprised he never FoS'd Mataza.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 18 2011 09:05 Karshe wrote:
As I have been indicating all day: voting Skrammen, who has been inactive for the majority of the game except for a single bandwagon post which helped nothing.
##Vote: Skrammen
The inactive he ultimately chose.
It doesn't take but a quick glance to notice a theme. Obviously he was targeted by the mafia for being to harsh on inactives! Wait.....no............
He was suspicious of Mataza the entire day! He never let up on him, not even after I released my FoS from him. Also was suspicious of Palmar, but only posts once so I can't speak to the intensity of his suspicion.
....to be continued...
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Now allow me to muse for a while.
Mataza has possibly the strongest stance in the town. He single-handedly (with the help of some votes from his friends) rid the town of the awful scum GiygaS. He's one of the most active posters in the game. He has a fanclub whose president is Palmar.
I have one of the weakest. I broke under pressure. I've been making horrible reads and outrageous accusations throughout d and n 1. My only ally against my main opponent at the beginning of d1 was GiygaS. I......touch myself at night.
Now...hang with me here.
Mafia chose to kill Karshe. They CHOSE him. They weren't limited by doubt. It's true, there could still be a doctor or cop or both in this game. But between Mataza and myself, doctor was preoccupied. So they eliminated the next biggest threat. Not prplhz who was suspicious of me. Not Palmar who was suspicious of DeepBlu2. Certainly not stefftastiq, the inactive. They chose Karshe. Why? Because at the end of the day, he was the only one left standing against Mataza.
This might come as a shock to many of you, and I can assure you, Karshe dying came as a shock to me. But I suspect that Mataza is playing us all like a freaking drum. I think it's been part of his plan all along to position himself into a leadership role by sacrificing one of his own so he can, unfettered, pick us off during the day as well as night.
FoS: Mataza
My next guess is that either Mataza or his scum buddy will claim cop. Be VERY wary of this.
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Now the town is in a precarious position. Do they trust in their "hero" Mataza? Do they lynch the very savior of Day 1? I say to you now that there will be attempts to discredit me. Palmar's defense is obviously dismissal. He likely won't even comment on my accusation as it's not worth his time. I suspect Mataza will fiercely defend himself as he did Day 1. But keep this in mind always. It made no sense for Mafia to murder Karshe unless he was onto something. He was moderately active, but as far as the general flow of town, was mostly unhelpful in taking down GiygaS. The only reason I can find in his posts is his opposition to Mataza.
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@Palmar
Oh, in my excitement, I forgot one thing.
I retract my FoS: prplhz. The more I read Karshe's posts, the more of prplhz I got to read too. While his switch WAS suspicious, his reasoning for it appeared to be logical and sincere. I assume he still suspects me and I'll have some 'splaining to do later on...but I no longer suspect him. Just thought I'd correct you there.
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Shouldn't take long. That's the long list of inactives. 
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I took a cue from Palmar and tried to figure out what Karshe's death accomplished for the mafia.
What I found was the obvious. My initial reaction. While I can't in good conscience retract my FoS: Mataza[red] due to the striking evidence I uncovered...I'm forced to reopen my original scumlist and FoS: prplhz and Palmar.
From my perspective, either Palmar and Mataza as my latest theory posits are working together or [red]Palmar and prplhz are working together as my previous theory posits.
Because it's impossible yet to determine which is the case, there is a common element which is clear at this moment.
##Vote Palmar
I'd like to hear from Mataza and hear what he has to say.
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Suddenly my straw houses aren't so inconsequential...it's funny how that works out.
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It's only considered tunneling if people are offering up reasonable and logical alternatives and the person in question isn't seeing them or doesn't care.
I have nothing more to go on, so I'm not tunneling. I'm working with what I have. Which is considerable.
If you want to get really technical, my main problem with prplhz was A) He tried to discredit me saying I pulled a 180 where Mataza was concerned, stopped focusing on him and voted for an inactive. In the VERY SAME POST he proclaimed that he himself was no longer suspicious of Mataza and that he would, in all likelihood, cast his vote for an inactive. Not only that, but that post was very VERY vague on where he stood where Mataza was concerned...he said that it was bad that people stopped focusing on him, but then in the same breath said that he was no longer suspicious of him. When I tried to call him out on it, that's when you did your little drama about the PRs and how uncareful he is and how useless I am. B) He scum-switched at 9:59. I don't care that he did it and ultimately landed on a scum. The point is he, along with 5 others, decided together that the best lynch for the night was inactive Skarrem...and at 9:59 he betrayed those he sided with and chose to lynch GiygaS, an active player. C) General scumminess. This is less prominent and is ultimately subjective, so I won't try and explain that...it's in the eye of the beholder obviously.
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@Wunder
FoS means you suspect someone, and you're showing the whole town. You're flying your finger flippantly forward with frenetic fervor.
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I also agree with the viewpoint that Mafia are going to be active rather than inactive. As Mataza pointed out VERY early in the game (and very pointedly too), it's a common strategy for scum to lie low. However, this town has been taking a VERY aggressive posture toward inactives (against ALL my urging)...logic would dictate that scum would NOT hide in the inactives. I'm taking Palmar's stalwart insistence that the remaining scum will be inactive as an attempt to derail the town's hunt for scum.
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@Palmar
Witch hunt, huh? Back with the dismissive defense then. That's cool. Your inconsistent behavior and attempts to derail the town's search for scum are duly noted and will be reflected on your PERMANENT record. Whilst you're plotting your next device to discredit or dismiss me, I'll be actively searching for your cohort.
@Town
All you need to do is go back through Palmar's posts leading up to the vote d1, note his attitude toward me when he doesn't consider me a threat. He barely even mentions me, other than to say that my posts are useless, straw houses that could be blown over with an inkling of analysis. Next note his tone after my analysis. He makes sure to note that it's my best post yet, but then tells me why it's utterly wrong.
It may be a stretch to ask for your trust at this point, but if you feel as I do, that Palmar's behavior is suspicious at best, destructive at worst, then I urge you to go back and take a look at his posts.
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@Palmar
You've said often that you want to THREATEN to lynch inactives...yet your actions speak otherwise. It's easy to promise something. However, as we saw on d1, everyone ended up posting and everyone ended up voting. And you still voted for an inactive. Not only that, but an inactive that no one else in town was targeting. So you not only failed to deliver on your promise, but you admittedly INTENTIONALLY voted against the rest of town. Your reason? "I was okay with either one of them dying."
"But everyone's post was useless and I wanted ANALYSIS...I failed to deliver because the conditions were not met"
It seems to me that everyone's posts are useless in your eyes. Everyone, that is, except people that agree with you. So what you really MEANT by that promise was "I'll switch my vote when I'm satisfied that everyone is posting to my exacting specifications of activity"...or in other words, "I'll switch my vote when I'm damned good and ready".......or never as your actions have indicated. My guess is that you never REALLY intended to switch your vote, unless something ruined your plan. But that's just speculation.
Your move sir.
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EPT
