Come play flamewheel, how can you pass this up
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Come play flamewheel, how can you pass this up | ||
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Radfield
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Village Idiot is on the list twice. I assume that's a mistake, and that there is actually only one VI role up for grabs. Also, Hero, Doctor and Bodyguard are absent from the shortlist. By my count, there are 23 roles which have some form of KP, 15 with some kind of investigative role, and around 12 defensive roles. Should be a fun, and probably quick, game | ||
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
*note: There is a new rule in place. In the event that your first AND second numbers clash with another player you both go straight to the bottom of the order. So if 3 players picked [4][1], [4][1] and [4][7] the 2 players with [4][1] are bumped below the player that picked [4][7] along with the original bump. All in All the most unique number combination gets priority. Draft Order Question: When two players pick the exact two numbers, [4][1] and [4][1], would they drop ALL the way to the bottom of the draft, or just below the player who picked [4][7]? If 6 numbers were chosen: A [4][1] B [4][1] C [4][7] D [8][1] E [8][2] F [10][1] Would the order be: F [10][1] C [4][7] D [8][1] E [8][2] A [4][1] B [4][1] Or would it be: F [10][1] C [4][7] A [4][1] B [4][1] D [8][1] E [8][2] My assumption is the former, but I just figured I'd check. | ||
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 11 2011 03:20 Incognito wrote: Actually it would be: F [10][1] D [8][1] E [8][2] C [4][7] A [4][1] B [4][1] Cool, that makes sense. More unique equals higher up. | ||
Radfield
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Radfield
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Radfield
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Kitaman, any plan to try and assign numbers to people is a poor plan. The best way to let things fall somewhat random is to let everyone send in their numbers blind. Of course this gives the mafia an advantage (they are slightly less blind) but any attempt to assign numbers helps mafia more than town. However, we absolutely want to identify which Mafia roles are most powerful, and which roles are worth denying. And we absolutely want to discuss that today, BEFORE the draft list comes out. Once the draft list comes out, then mafia have more chance to argue to assign anti-town roles into their own hands. So lets have this discussion now. + Show Spoiler [Incognito's Post] + On May 14 2011 13:30 Incognito wrote: List of invisible posters: GMarshal Kitaman27 tnkted Bum's post is on spot. Fortunately, I already mapped out some stuff. PYP Insane Game Plan The optimal picking strategy revolves around this cute little role: This role obsoletes the PYP1 and PYP3 role picking strategies. The mere existence of the thief on the role list means that it would be seriously harmful for mafia to know where the good roles are. Of course, it’s a no brainer that the good roles are in the beginning part of the list. So my only advice is that if you’re in the beginning of the list, seriously consider picking a role such as NRA member or Meth Man to deter the mafia from hitting/stealing roles from the top of the list. Due to the fact that the mafia can coordinate numbers with each other while the town can’t, it is very likely that mafia will get a spot within the top 3. As shown by the past PYP games, mafia has gotten the first or second spot in all 3 games. Which means town will likely have to be on the defensive, as it is hard to guarantee that we can effectively deny mafia the thief role. The amount of potential KP in this game is huge. This means that there is a huge potential for the game to end quickly. The basic town strategy should be to avoid KP roles, while going heavy on investigative and defensive roles to try to prolong the game. Tier I Roles Mafia 2 Detective + Vote Rigger Inventor Chuiu Jack Modern Detective Role Cop Bullet Bill PYP3 Veteran Doctor Bulletproof Mafia 2 Detective combined with the Vote Rigger is a combo that allows us to break up the town into chunks and analyze with greater ease. The formula is simple. The Vote Rigger rigs the Day 1 Vote into 4 roughly equal blocks with 7, 6, 6, and 5 voters each. All the lurkers/suspicious people are piled onto one list, and the Modern Detective uses his vote check to check one vote block each day, starting with the lurkers. Town then proceeds to analyze the split lists, allowing for more focused analyses. The rest of the investigative roles are used to sort through the lists, while the defensive roles prolong the game and squeeze the mafia. The Mafia will want these roles Kingmaker + Politician Thief Caller Godfather Roleblocker Janitor JailKeeper Puppeteer Hero PYP3 Veteran NRA Member CPR Doctor The best mafia combo pick is Kingmaker + Politician. This effectively gives mafia an unlimited anonymous unblockable dayvig power, capable of sniping off all the top town players. Caller Godfather is also an obvious mafia role. As anyone who’s read Caller’s Mafia V knows, Godfather recruiting high level townies with good roles is a town’s worst nightmare. Denying this role is iffy, as a mafia thief has plenty of time to try to find the role and steal it before it can actually be of use. Jailkeeper, roleblocker, and NRA member are powerful roles for the mafia that prevent investigations, and potentially save mafia from NKs. Hero and PYP 3 veteran cause town pain when mafia slip out of lynches and snipe off a townie. Lastly, puppeteer is surprisingly useful for a good mafia arguer, as it allows them to anonymously mislead town and cause tons of chaos in the thread. However, the most critical roles that we need to deny are the Thief, Politician, Jailkeeper, and Roleblocker. Due to the threat of a mafia thief, we can’t discuss precise strategy here, but townies should strongly consider picking one of these 4 roles. By the way KillerSOS is mafia. Also Node is mafia. I agree that thief is absolutely key to any attempt to assign roles. No point assigning mafia roles to certain slots if the thief can just swipe them. Therefore, any attempt to assign roles must begin with the thief at the #1 slot. If the thief attempts to swipe one of the mafia roles from further down the list, presumably the alarm is raised and someone gets lynched. Town will have plenty of KP in this game, so double claimers can much more easily be dealt with than in a regular game. (Making it much less advantageous for mafia to enact silliness)(Keep in mind though, that the journalist is going to be causing counter claims, traitor claims and all sorts of nastiness) Incog, While your vote-rigger and mafia 2 Detective(M2DT) is a good plan, it hinges on two town players receiving the roles. There is absolutely no way for us to assure this Day 1, and frankly there is very little I would be confident in Day 2 or 3 except my own role checks(which of course no-one else would be confident of). If either of the roles fall into mafia hands, the plan is toast. If town gets both roles, mafia will kill either the VR or the M2DT, and the plan is toast again. A role centered plan like this is far too fragile to focus our investigative efforts on. While it's a good plan, it's not one that i can see working. Also, our goal during the game should not be on a fancy role play, it should be on scum-hunting, which i'm sure you agree with. I think the only thing we need to focus on right now is which mafia roles are so bad for town, that we should try to assign them. Roles that are really good for us don't need to be discussed that much right now, as they should not be assigned at all. We want to leave those pro-town choices in the hands of townies and deny mafia any extra info. We can make a suggestions list of highly pro-town roles tomorrow after the draft order comes out. So, what roles are very bad for town? Many have made suggestions already, and some I disagree with, as some roles can be effectively nuetered. America: This is NOT a scary role. The easiest way to solve the America role is to say this: ANYONE WHO USES THE AMERICA POWER DIES. No pro-town player should be taking this role. We have a glut of other excellent pro-town roles, so there is not need to take this. Having this role in the game makes things only harder for town. Kingmaker: Again, this is not a scary role. Once again, NO TOWN PLAYER SHOULD TAKE THIS ROLE. However, that doesn't stop the mafia from taking the role and hiding. Therefore, if anyone ever gets made king, they must abide by a majority decision on whom to lynch. So, at the start of the day, whomever is the king declares it, and we treat the day as a double lynch. Failure to lynch with the majority gets you killed, plain and simple. This effectively nueters this roles potential danger in mafia hands. Also, this allows any role cop to instantly identify a mafia if they have this role. There are far too many anti-town roles to deny them all to the mafia, so the next best thing is to all collectively agree as a town, that certain roles we will not take. In particular, any role that is good as a mafia, but bad as a townie, should not be taken by a town player. Firstly it's a waste of a good potential townie role, and second you're not necessarily denying the mafia anything, since there are so many good mafia roles. Also, by agreeing as a town to not take certain roles, it means if a role cop every finds someone with that role, or if it ever comes to light during the course of the game that someone is a particular role, then we have found a mafia. I'm proposing that we form a list of roles that will NOT be taken by any town player. Anyone found with one of these roles will be lynched. Roles that are good for mafia, but fairly useless for town are as follows: NRA Member Hero Bomber Man Rock Star Emporer Day vig Vengeful player America and Kingmaker (see above) Zombie Admiral Ackbar Pardoner Cupid Prince of Darkness Suicide Bomber Politician Agent of Chaos Roleblocker Role Reverser Framer Copy Cat Recruiting Mason Bone Breaker Puppeteer Hooker (this is a rough list, I went through it pretty quickly, but the idea is there, so lets refine it) The vast majority of these roles are useless in town hands except for denial purposes. Because of this, I see very little likelyhood of the mafia taking these roles. The mafia want to focus on taking roles that are good for them, AND good for town, as this has the effect of giving them a good role, and denying town a good role. Yes this plan allows mafia the pick of this litter for roles, but these are mostly second rate roles for mafia members, and open themselves up to any and all role checks. Several roles are in fact powerful enough for us to take notice. In particular: Inventor, CPR Doctor, Journalist, Vote Rigger, and Caller GF Inventor. We absolutely must know where this role is. If pro-mafia inventions start getting thrown around, we need to know where to lynch. Also, a pro-town Inventor should be handing out copious amounts of Bulletproof Vests. Ver, does whatever get invented during the night show up in the day post like in PYP1? CPR Doctor basically doubles mafia KP. Not sure how we best use this role, but we want to know where it is. Journalist will cause all kinds of false claims and couterclaims. Insanely powerful. Knowing where this role is at least allows a town player with a KP role to kill the journalist if the power gets used on them. Vote Rigger is obviously bad, but by knowing where he/she is we can get an easy lynch if this power gets used. Caller GF is obviously bad. I propose we assign these five roles, along with thief, to the first 5 people in order. Yes, some of these roles may end up in mafia hands, but I honestly don't know how we avoid that. At least this way the roles are exposed and far less frightening than if they are allowed to go unknown into the draft. By knowing where these roles are, town gains more power. Some notes on other roles: PYP3 Veteran has the ability to survive a lynch. This is a very anti-town power, since if someone gets voted to be lynched, we want that player to get lynched, otherwise town will be wasting time trying to lynch them again. For this reason, I think this role should also go on the No-Pick-List. (Also, having this in the game would allow mafia to take the hero role, and then claim PYP3Vet when they dodged a lynch. Not something we want to happen.) Bad Santa seems like a scary role, but I don't think it is. It only gives the mafia 1 extra KP during the entire game. This makes it a good role for mafia, but there are plenty of other roles which do the same thing. Also, this role can be effective in town hands as well. The bad santa role effectively won the game for us in PYP2. Prince of Darkness is also not a scary role. Mafia only have a KP of 1, so once again, this only gives the mafia 1 extra KP. In addition, town will have a ton of night powers(there are 15 investigative powers in the game) so this is as good for town as for mafia. If you disagree with the ideas in this post, please point out the problems in the general idea, not in the details. Don't nitpick in otherwords, and don't throw the whole plan out because you disagree with some details. If you agree with some of the ideas here, feel free to argue about the details and lets try to refine it Here is my role list I made before the game started. Some things I have since valued higher or lower, but it's a general breakdown for those who would like to look at it. + Show Spoiler [role list breakdown] + I've organized the list with two numbers, pro-mafia value first, pro-town value second. I'm sure i've mis-valued somethings, but don't quibble with the values unless i'm way off base. This is a general reference only. List by pro-townitude: Inventor 5 5 Capitalist (role cop + vig) 5 5 Chuiu Jack 3 5 Modern Detective 2 5 Priest 2 5 Assassin 2 5 NKVD Agent(Alignment Cop) 1 5 Caller Godfather 5 4 PYP 3 Veteran 5 4 Bad Santa 4 4 Vigilante 4 4 Mafia 4 Veteran 3 4 Role Cop 3 4 jailkeeper 3 4 Mafia 2 Detective 2 4 Veteran 2 4 Mad Hatter 2 4 Mafia 4 Hatter 2 4 Bullet Proof 2 4 Bullet Bill 2 4 Witch 2 4 Medic 1 4 Parity Cop 1 4 NRA Member 5 3 Vote Rigger 5 3 Rock Star 4 3 Emperor 4 3 Day Vigilante 4 3 Vengeful Player 4 3 America 4 3 Kingmaker 4 3 Mason 3 3 bus driver 3 3 Hider 2 3 Dirty Cop 2 3 Alignment Cop 1 3 Doctor 1 3 Meth Man 1 3 Watcher 1 3 Hero 5 2 Zombie 4 2 Admiral Ackbar 4 2 Pardoner 4 2 Cupid 4 2 Suicide Bomber 3 2 Politician 3 2 Journalist 3 2 Copy Cat 2 2 Janitor 2 2 Recruiting Mason 2 2 Hooker 1 2 Martyr 1 2 Tracker 1 2 Bodygaurd 1 2 Mafia XII Godfather 5 1 Bomber Man 5 1 Thief 5 1 Prince o Darkness 4 1 CPR Doctor 4 1 Agent of Chaos 3 1 Roleblocker 3 1 Role Reverser 3 1 Framer 3 1 Bone Breaker 2 1 Puppeteer 2 1 Mafia VIII Traitor 1 1 Village Idiot 1 1 Village Idiot 1 1 Clue Detective Mafia Role List Inventor 5 5 Capitalist (role cop + vig) 5 5 Caller Godfather 5 4 PYP 3 Veteran 5 4 NRA Member 5 3 Vote Rigger 5 3 Hero 5 2 Mafia XII Godfather 5 1 Bomber Man 5 1 Thief 5 1 Bad Santa 4 4 Vigilante 4 4 Rock Star 4 3 Emperor 4 3 Day Vigilante 4 3 Vengeful Player 4 3 America 4 3 Kingmaker 4 3 Zombie 4 2 Admiral Ackbar 4 2 Pardoner 4 2 Cupid 4 2 Prince o Darkness 4 1 CPR Doctor 4 1 Chuiu Jack 3 5 Mafia 4 Veteran 3 4 Role Cop 3 4 jailkeeper 3 4 Mason 3 3 bus driver 3 3 Suicide Bomber 3 2 Politician 3 2 Journalist 3 2 Agent of Chaos 3 1 Roleblocker 3 1 Role Reverser 3 1 Framer 3 1 Modern Detective 2 5 Priest 2 5 Assassin 2 5 Mafia 2 Detective 2 4 Veteran 2 4 Mad Hatter 2 4 Mafia 4 Hatter 2 4 Bullet Proof 2 4 Bullet Bill 2 4 Witch 2 4 Hider 2 3 Dirty Cop 2 3 Copy Cat 2 2 Janitor 2 2 Recruiting Mason 2 2 Bone Breaker 2 1 Puppeteer 2 1 NKVD Agent(Alignment Cop) 1 5 Medic 1 4 Parity Cop 1 4 Alignment Cop 1 3 Doctor 1 3 Meth Man 1 3 Watcher 1 3 Hooker 1 2 Martyr 1 2 Tracker 1 2 Bodygaurd 1 2 Mafia VIII Traitor 1 1 Village Idiot 1 1 Village Idiot 1 1 Off topic but important!! I'm using chrome, and am having some difficulties. When i click a spoiler tag on someones post, it doesnt open and instead just sends me to the top of the screen. Also, when i try to click the bold or italic or quote button, etc in the reply box, nothing happens. Anyone know how i can fix this? I could use Firefox, which works fine, but it is really slow on my computer. Thanks | ||
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
However, knowing this, i'm going to make sure I ask anyone who makes a claim to repeat themselves. And if they don't adamantly push that what they said is the truth, I'm going to disregard what they said. I realize that a player cannot insinuate they were journalisted in any way, but how far does that go? If a player makes a claim that they are a role cop and found the PoD, but then in their next post waffles as to whether we should lynch that player, is that against the rules? Or if they are a bit too easily convinced of an opposing veiwpoint, or seem to be pushing to focus attention elsewhere? I guess what I'm saying is that because I know the journalist is in the game, my gut instinct is going to be to push anyone who makes a claim to back themselves up, and really post their feelings. Is this something I should be refraining from doing, or is this a problem for the journalist to make sure they don't force someone to say anything that's too black or white? | ||
Radfield
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+ Show Spoiler + Please disregard my off topic note at the end of my big post. If I could edit it out I would. | ||
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 14 2011 20:24 deconduo wrote: Oh, and to those coming up with picking tactics, I'm noting going to be following them. I'm going to pick whatever I think is most fun, not whats most optimum. This argument has been made in past PYP games as well. I can certainly understand where it comes from, no one likes to be dictated to, and the point of mafia is to have fun. However, it's important to note that what you're basically saying is, "No matter if role-denial is a great thing for town, I'm going to do whats best for me". This is of course an anti-town and pro-mafia viewpoint, so I hope you understand that I'll probably view it as such, and may hold it against you as the game goes on. I'm not trying to be a jerk here or anything, just trying to point out how I see that particular viewpoint. However, if you disagree and think that role-denial is NOT a great thing for the town, that's a different matter, and i encourage you to elaborate(which i'm sure folks some will). | ||
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I think what we want to focus on is a sparing list of roles to deny mafia, and then allow town players to choose at their own discretion. I'm not actually sure how a traitor throws things off. The goal of assigned roles is to keep them either a) out of mafia hands, or b) in a known location. If someone picks traitor instead of say, Caller GF, then that still very likely keeps the Caller GF role out of mafia hands.(mafia wouldn't want to possibly waste a pick on an assigned role). | ||
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'd like to clarify my plan, as i feel it has been a bit misconstrued along the way. The plan has 3 facets to it: Using the first 6 picks to deny mafia, creating a list of anti-town 'No-Pick' roles, and coming up with a list of the best pro-town roles. Also, there are several roles which we need to agree to how they will be used. I am strongly and ardently opposed to any planning of where pro-town picks should land. The idea that people higher up should take investigative roles and people lower down take protective is a poor one in my mind. Yes, it would be great to avoid town overlap, but not at the expense of giving mafia more info on who has what role. Instead, I propose we create a priority list of the best pro-town roles, and allow town players to choose for themselves whether to take an investigative/offensive/defensive role. This puts the trust of role picking back on individual townies, and lets them run with it. Part One: So part one of the plan is the denial and placement of super-strong mafia roles. The key here is not to ensure that mafia do not get the role(as anyone in the top 6 could be mafia), but rather to ensure that the town knows where these super strong mafia roles are. The order I assigned, before the draft order came out, is as follows: Thief - Flamewheel Inventor - Scamp CPR Doctor - Caller Journalist - Barundar Vote Rigger - Radfield Caller GF - GM Marshal These roles would be taken in the first 6 picks, and in my opinion, substantially help town by knowing where they are. Thief loses it's potency if we know where it is, Inventor can be controlled and forced to be pro-town, a hidden CPR Doctor would effectively double the mafia KP, the Journalist becomes fairly impotent when his location is know, Vote Rigger is an auto-lynch if his power is ever used inappropriately, Caller GF as far as i can tell is vulnerable to alignment checks and hence can be possibly confirmed before Night 2(or whenever his power activates) Ver, can you confirm that Caller GF will show up as red to alignment checks? Also, when is the first moment that Caller GF can send in his recruitment. If anyone has any questions or comments on these 6 roles or why they need to be assigned, please speak up. As far as I can tell, all 6 of these become far, far less potent to mafia if we know where they are located. Part Two: We need a list of 'No Pick' roles, which no townie will pick. These are roles which benefit mafia far more than town. The purpose of this is two-fold. First, it allows any role cop to instantly become an alignment cop, which is a huge boon to the town. Second, it allows town to focus their efforts on the other generally more important roles for town. The list as I see it is as follows: NRA Member Hero Bomber Man Rock Star Emporer Day vig Vengeful player America Kingmaker Zombie Admiral Ackbar Pardoner Cupid Prince of Darkness Suicide Bomber Politician Agent of Chaos Roleblocker Role Reverser Framer Copy Cat Recruiting Mason Bone Breaker Puppeteer Hooker Janitor PYP 3 Veteran Bus Driver? Bad Santa? Several points have been raised about the inclusion of the Day Vig and Zombie. The reason I feel these should be on the 'No Pick' list is again twofold. First, townies have a poor record killing mafia, and second, mafia can use these roles to snipe off confirmed townies AFTER they have been killed or hammered for a lynch. Therefore, lets at least make it more risky for mafia to select those roles. A general note on KP roles: Town should in general be steering away from taking KP roles, and towards taking investigative roles. Keep in mind that there are around 15 investigative roles, which means that the longer(ie less KP) the game goes on, the larger the advantage for town. It also means a townie using KP is far more likely to kill investigators than mafia. Part Three: This is a list of the best town roles as i see them, and roles that should be prioritized for the 19-20 townies to take. This is in a general order of best to worst, but by no means is this list meant to be a hard rule, and town players should be encouraged to take any role on the list. Capitalist Chuiu Jack Modern Detective Priest Assassin NKVD Agent Vigilante Mafia4 Vet Role Cop Jailkeeper Mafia 2 DT Veteran Mad Hatter Mafia 4 Hatter Bullet Proof Bullet Bill Witch Medic Parity Cop Hider Alignment Cop Doctor Meth Man Watcher Bad Santa? Bus Driver? Some notes on various roles: Inventor should be making exclusively bulletproof vests. We cannot guarantee that Scamp is pro-town, therefore it is essential that we make sure he only hands out the most pro-town inventions. Bulletproof vests are excellent for town, and mediocre-poor to mafia(especially if town prioritizes Investigative roles over dt roles). America. Any player who uses this role should be lynched immediately Kingmaker Any player who is made King for the day should immediately claim it, and then follow the will of the town by treating it as a double lynch for the day. CPR Doctor, Journalist and Vote Rigger should never be used by the town players Tracker should be used to follow the CPR Doctor and ensure he is not visiting anyone(At least initially) Assassin is an awesome pro-town role, and mostly useless to the mafia unless combined with a mafia role cop. Bad Santa is not necessarily an anti-town role, as it has exceptional investigative powers. Alignment Cop despite being Sane or Paranoid, is a fantastic town role that never gets picked. | ||
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
The only time to reveal information would be if you're sure it helps town. For instance, if you had the second overall pick and tried to get the traitor and failed. This would be a no-brainer. Or if I try to take the vote-rigger and fail, I would certainly reveal that information. I'm simply suggesting everyone think long and hard before giving out info to the public about your role. Also, I'd love to hear that Flamewheel, Scamp, Caller, Barundar and GM Marshall are going to take their assigned picks. Frankly, even if you 5 are not going to, just tell us you are anyways(though it's better if you do take them). At least that way the mafia will likely avoid going after those roles. | ||
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Radfield
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QUOTE]On May 16 2011 01:39 chaoser wrote: Inventor should be making exclusively bulletproof vests. We cannot guarantee that Scamp is pro-town, therefore it is essential that we make sure he only hands out the most pro-town inventions. Bulletproof vests are excellent for town, and mediocre-poor to mafia Mafia has a lot of cover power this game, there's like 4-5 roles that just let you hide your alignment/role. We can't rely on blue investigation to pull us through, Not to mention inventor will probs not live very long. I'd rather the inventor make more useful stuff than bulletproof vests. Assassin is an awesome pro-town role, and mostly useless to the mafia unless combined with a mafia role cop. How is Assassin protown? It's basically a CV for mafia since they can just name GREEN everyone. For townie it's like a one time DT role that confirms one person outright with the potential to KP a lot of shit. Should you succeed in your hit, you are refunded your kill to use again in the following cycle or later and nobody is the wiser. Should you fail, your target lives but you and your actions will be publically outted, your intended target outted, and you will permanently lose your powers. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by relating mafia cover roles to the inventor. I absolutely agree that we cannot rely on blue investigations during the game(as we may have none), and have no intention of letting town focus on role plays or hoping on investigators. An inventor who is handing out bulletproof vests will probably live for a while, as he/she will be a prime target for medic coverage. I'd like to hear what kind of stuff you think is more useful for an inventor who's alignment is unknown. Any invention made will show up in the day post, so it has to be something unambiguously pro-town, or the inventor will get lynched. This happened in PYP1, when the inventor made a cel phone. His intention was to start a PM circle, but a cel phone can be used for other purposes, like detonating a bomb for instance. Bulletproof vests are great, as they are unambiguous in their purpose, and benefit town much more than mafia(assuming the inventor is mafia-aligned). | ||
Radfield
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On May 16 2011 02:34 tnkted wrote: Also, inventor can't make more than one of the same type of item... that means he can make ONE bulletproof vest. He could make like, a redirector item that redirects a bullet to somebody else, or a mirror item that mirrors all actions back on the actioner, but only one bulletproof item. Good point, so this means we need a list of about 4 pro-town items. Bulletproof vest, Medic Kit, Alignment Checks and Veteran Powers would all make the list. I'm sure there are some others, but these types of roles are all great for a town player, and weak for a mafia player. But that can be sorted out day-to-day if the inventor lives. | ||
Radfield
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On May 16 2011 03:26 infinitestory wrote: I think we can easily get more pro-town inventions if we think outside the box. e.g.: A robotic dog which can seek out gunpowder. If given to a person with a gun, it'll sneeze all night and notify everyone. If not, the person gets a onetime Bullet Bill check. The key is not to find pro-town inventions per se, but rather to find pro-town inventions which are unambiguous. A robotic dog could kill a player when they try to use it, a broadcast tower could send a signal to explode a bomb inside a vest that the inventor handed out, etc. Anyways, this is all likely moot, as a townie inventor will probably get roleblocked, and a mafia inventor will just not invent, and claim they got roleblocked. Anyways, we have plenty of time to talk about this, as we have over 72 hours before the inventor has to invent. However, we do need to discuss the pro-town role list, and the 'no pick' list. Is there anything that doesn't belong, or should belong, on those lists?? | ||
Radfield
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On May 16 2011 03:42 infinitestory wrote: I've said before that Copy Cat is potentially pro-town. We also had a long discussion about the masonic role which deemed that Agent of Chaos and Recruiting Mason aren't very good choices for mafia, even if used together. You're right, Copy Cat is potentially pro-town. The only reason I am wary of it, is that I am also pushing for the known pro-mafia roles in the top 6. This means if we lynch a vanilla townie Day 1, then mafia can snipe one of the top 6, and steal a very pro-mafia role. Therefore, in this particular case, I would say we as town avoid it, and that way any role check will find a scummy Copy Cat. I also agree that Recruiting Mason should not be on the 'No Pick' list. Agent of Chaos however has no place in townie hands, so it might as well be on the 'No Pick' list. | ||
Radfield
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On May 16 2011 05:23 Scamp wrote: I'm really confused about Radfield's no-pick list. He introduces it as his own creation but it's actually just a copy-paste of Bumatlarge's list with a few odd changes. Firstly, he replaces Janitor with the Day Vig and then adds Janitor back on the list toward the end. Next, he replaces both godfather roles with the recruiting mason. Caller GF is in his top 6 so that makes sense but why remove the other godfather role from the no-pick list, and what's bad about taking recruiting mason? Finally, he removed 'traitors' from the list. Why would you do this? He replaced it with the PYP3 Veteran. Why add that and not, say, hero or rock star? Why does neither no-pick list have the framer? That seems pretty anti-town to me. I think bum's list is actually MY list copy/pasted, not the other way around. Anyways, those are all good questions: -Caller GF is in top 6 -Actual GF is immune to alignment and role checks, so is irrelevent for the No-Pick list. -Recruiting Mason was pointed out by Infinitestory, it shouldn't be on the list. -Hero and Rock Star ARE on the No-Pick list -Framer IS on the No-Pick list -Traitor is not on the No-Pick list because it is obviously 100% anti-town, no one needs to be told this. One can't even claim to be denying it from someone else. -Janitor never 'replaced anything', It was simply left off the first incarnation of the list because I meant to write a note about it at the bottom of my big post. Someone rightly pointed out it should be on the No-Pick list, and so it was added. - Day Vig is still on the No-Pick list -I explained why the PYP3 Veteran was added to the list: PYP3 Veteran has the ability to survive a lynch. This is a very anti-town power, since if someone gets voted to be lynched, we want that player to get lynched, otherwise town will be wasting time trying to lynch them again. For this reason, I think this role should also go on the No-Pick-List. (Also, having this in the game would allow mafia to take the hero role, and then claim PYP3Vet when they dodged a lynch. Not something we want to happen.) Anyways, here is the current No-Pick list as I see it: + Show Spoiler + NRA Member Hero Bomber Man Rock Star Emporer Day vig Vengeful player America Kingmaker Zombie Admiral Ackbar Pardoner Cupid Prince of Darkness Suicide Bomber Politician Agent of Chaos Roleblocker Role Reverser Framer Copy Cat Bone Breaker Puppeteer Hooker Janitor PYP 3 Veteran Bus Driver and Bad Santa could be on this list, but they're both fun roles, and fairly decent in town hands so they should probably be left off the list. In other news, since flamewheel is not willing to take thief and go with part one of the plan, then the whole plan is somewhat scuttled, as mafia can take the thief lower down and swipe one of the good roles from the top of the list. I would say that the number 7 player could take thief instead, but deconduo has already expressed his unwillingness to be assigned a role. Also, it's unlikely that Caller will play along anyways. So, perhaps my Top 6 plan should be scrapped and flame, Scamp, Caller, Barundar, myself and GM Marshall should take whatever picks we want. The real question here is whether half an assigned plan is better or worse than no plan at all. I would recommend that the top 6 players still consider taking their assigned roles in an effort to deny the mafia those roles. Again, even if you are in the top 6 and not planning on taking an assigned role, it's still worth it to say you will. Thoughts? What's the best way forward here? | ||
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Presumably because they are solid, experienced players. Obviously Bad Santa should make their own decisions though, as any recommendation could be from a mafia player. Also, speak up Incog. We've discussed all this role business before, so why are you not weighing in now? Bumatlarge, I don't think we should be trying to organize the town picking list the way you are. Obviously if people actually took according to the categories you laid out, mafia would just kill everyone in the 'mafia hunting' category since there are no defensive roles there. Much better to let townies decide for themselves whether to take investigative, defensive, or offensive roles. Townies outside the top 6 should take whatever they want, as long as it's not on the No-Pick list. | ||
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Sorry if it covers some things that have already been talked about. Radfield: Even if Flamewheel isn't willing to take thief, it would still work if we just shifted everything down a position, right? It would, except I'm fairly certain neither Deconduo or Caller will take any role assigned to them. Fortunately, that doesn't matter too much, as bum's suggestion works fairly well: FW - CJ/rockstar (what he said) Scamp - inventor/defense Caller - Thief (hes probably going to pick traitor though or something) Barundar - Caller GF Radfield - Vote rigger (im assuming he would follow his own plan here) now, caller probably won't take thief, and we're still missing CPR doc, which is a great role for mafia. Barundar, you may want to think about randomizing your role, and taking either Caller GF or CPR Doc. I will take vote rigger, and GM Marshall(number 6 pick) can hopefully take the thief. I think this leaves us in decent shape: 1. 2. Scamp - Inventor 3. 4. Barundar - Caller GF or CPR Doc 5 Radfield - Vote Rigger 6. GM Marshall - Thief 7-25 Any Pro-Town role they feel like, with a heavy emphasis on investigative and defensive powers. In General town should be avoiding KP roles in an effort to prolong the game. I'd really like to see 5 or 6 investigative roles make it in though. Someone please take capitalist. It is fantastic for both town and mafia, so hopefully a townie takes it high up. Players at the bottom should not be afraid to try and take really great roles. Oftentimes very strong town roles don't get picked, because players towards the end of the draft are afraid to double up with someone and end up vanilla. | ||
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On May 16 2011 09:01 Foolishness wrote: These plans for the top 5-8 players to pick roles is retarded in it's current form. If flamewheel/Caller/whoever don't agree to take their designated role (assuming we have a consensus on what roles they should take) we need to lynch them, no questions asked. What's to stop Scamp for all of a sudden posting "hey guys, I'm going to take Hero or Assassin (or whatever role he might want) sorry"? Are you just going to shift down the important role list even further? Yawn. Waste of time. People are going to pick whatever they want to pick. I'm not opposed to general guidelines, such as town should focus on DT related roles or survival roles, whatever, but assigning roles to the top 5 players is just silly. If you are going to go that route, we should have everyone claim as soon as the picks are out. Either everyone should claim or no one should claim (that includes assigning roles before the picks). Nothing in between. No one should claim. Any plans laid out are for pre-selection only. Once the actual role selection takes place, no one should tell anyone anything about their role. The only exception is if the information you might reveal is very beneficial to town. Having said this, I almost guarantee a few people will state they got a role, or got vanilla, or whatever. I really hope not though. | ||
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On May 16 2011 14:29 OriginalName wrote: Ok now that 48 hours of wifom is over I have a question. Is going through pregame really worth the amount of effort over results or should we play this like a normal game? Im going to answer this by saying: sort of. The biggest reason behind this are plans proposed by Radfield and Batman both are basically the same thing. Pro-town plans to attempt to control roles. When has this ever worked in PYP? Never, invariably someone always effs it up. So why bother with wifom, the only real analysis done on actual people was done by Caller, so really I think our best move is to play the game like a really blue heavy normal game. Im liable to think somebody who suggested a no-pick list is scum just because it looks towny on the outside, control is a scum style so why let them get away with it. We should play like this is a normal game. Any time to focus on roles is over for the time being, until, as ace says, we start getting claims. There is no guarantee that there are any good blue roles at all in the game, so that's the way we need to play it. Once night comes, we can make all sorts of medic lists, dt check lists, etc, but we can't rely on them in any way, since we don't know if those roles are in the game. The focus now is on scum-hunting and the lynch. However, we have several important results moving forward: - Anyone found with a role on the 'No-Pick' list should be outted and lynched. There is no reason for a townie to have any of these roles. - Anyone who took America and nukes should be lynched - Anyone who is made King and lynches without the towns approval should be killed These last two are simply too powerful for mafia to use the power and make a kill, and then talk their way out of it. We need a hard rule on this now before it happens. It's possible that Scamp should claim if he took Inventor. We probably have protective roles in the game, and definitely have the threat of having protective roles, so he can likely be protected. Thoughts? On May 16 2011 17:55 Ace wrote: You Too.you guys are throwing suspicions around like knives, be careful with those things! I think the chances that Chezinu took Bomber Man, regardless of his alignment, are like 10/10. | ||
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On May 16 2011 15:45 Ace wrote: Well whether we hear from Node or not doesn't mean anything just because his name was mentioned twice. Incognito has been pushing suspicions around already. Either he has more information than we do or he is smarter than the rest of us (read: me). Needless to say I think he's just bullshitting around so far. I'm disappointed you didn't take Dirty Cop. No one calls out a bullshitter like you do Ace | ||
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This is a quote from one of Incognito's post game wrap-ups: So rough recap of town’s goals: 1) Get useful information. Provide an accusation with reasoning. Generate discussion by pointing out interesting details and irregularities in people’s posts and find out why players feel that way. Don’t let people off the hook for bizarre statements. You want to know what they’re thinking and why. 2) Create an ideal atmosphere. You don’t want an atmosphere of confusion, mistrust, and doubt. You want an atmosphere of clarity, direction, and focus. 3) Figure out your plans/direction. Mafia don’t give themselves up that easily. Town needs to establish methods of finding and systematically destroying mafia. This ties into the next point: 4) Bully the town to your way of thinking. Coupled with strong analysis, you need to ensure that the mafia fear you and that you can command influence. Make sure nobody can stay neutral, so that you can increase your influence while weeding out scum. Incognito so far has decided to do pretty much the opposite of this so far. Maybe he's the VI, maybe he's playing above my level, but so far his play has been very contradictory to points 1 or 2. | ||
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As far as our day 1 lynch goes, we need to be wary of the Copy Cat role. I think in both PYP games I've played, copy cat was taken by mafia. With a town strategy of role denial, this is again a likely choice for mafia. As such, I think the top players in the draft should not be the focus of our Day 1 lynch. I also realize that I'm in the top part of the draft, so my bias is clear, but hopefully my reasoning makes sense. Therefore, if you want to build a case against someone in the top 6-8 picks(as I do), I recommend you wait until Day 2, when the Copy Cat role has been allocated. | ||
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I'm not saying that the mafia definitely clashed, but simply that there are decent reasons for a couple mafia players to do so. Also the fact that ~5 players picked [4] and ~5 players picked [9] makes it slightly more likely in my mind that mafia clashed with themselves on purpose. blah blah blah wifom blah wifom. Arggg. | ||
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On May 17 2011 07:46 deconduo wrote: Why are people voting for Fishball? Fishball has 1 vote, and that player explained his vote. | ||
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On May 17 2011 07:30 bumatlarge wrote: If you don't know what to post and you are town, just copy GMarshal. Write whatever you feel will help town, and even if it's awful, we can more easily determine your alignment. Not saying GM is faw shaw townie, but he isn't on my scumdar at all. Agreed. GMarshal has been fairly pro-town all game. He started by spotlighting himself and moved on to a consistent defense of his plan(which was sound in general, but poor in the details). Mr Wiggles on the other hand just had a very long winded semi-defense. Well Done. | ||
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On May 17 2011 08:44 deconduo wrote: Actually I think lynching me isn;t a bad idea. I have a feeling I'm a mole. Also I didn't get any role so I don't mind too much. Man, the only other game we've played together Decon, you were helpful, active, patient, pro-town and reasonable. And you were scum, and shot me night 1. This game you're anything but, so I assume you're town. | ||
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Kavdragon is putting in lots of effort, and making mistakes. If anything this looks pro-town, not anti-town. Incongito is too great a town asset to lynch off his Day 1 behavior, especially since he claims he's been out of town. (By the way, I appreciate that you ignored all my posts and then called me an invisible poster ) On May 17 2011 15:07 Eiii wrote: Do I think decon is mafia? Probably not, after pulling a post like that. Do I think that there's a decent chance we're going to lynch mafia today if we ignore decon? Nope. Do I think that lynching someone who's either VI or a townie with apparently no role who's lost interest in the game and probably won't contribute much is better than tunneling in on one or two 'suspicious' posts from an active player or one who looks lurk-y now for whatever reason but could hold a helpful role or perk up and contribute more in the next few days? Definitely. Look, I don't ever have much confidence in day 1 lynches. Like ace has said, it just seems like sifting through peoples' posts and emphasizing possible reasons that they *could* be scum. I don't see anything that makes me especially confident that we're on the right track today and I'm pretty clueless so far as well. At best decon is VI and we take him out of the game early and avoid lynching someone green tonight. At best-best mafia is retarded, and decon is a red zombie or something. At worst decon is for some crazy reason lying and actually holds the most useful role in the world but decided to tell us to kill him just for fun. Probably decon actually did have a specific set of roles he wanted to play and he wasn't able to pick any up, so he's not that interested in playing the game. In terms of people I think are scummy, I think caller and chez have been posting pretty dumb things, but that's about all I've got I think you're wrong here Eiii, lynching easy targets(like non-contributing or inactive players) only helps the mafia by giving them an easy out. We have an absolute ton of info so far, and a decent chance of killing scum today, better in my mind than any other normal game, since we basically have a 96 hour Day 1. Easy targets who give us nothing at this point: Deconduo, KillerSOS, Fishball(hello? FIshball? Are you there? Are you playing?) OriginalName: Tentative, Spammy, Jokey, One Liners.... even has a standard medium length contributy post which says almost nothing. Unfortunately he has been called out by several other scummy players, so he could just be an easy target. Mr Wiggles: Did a small amount of leg-work looking at roles, Medium sized posts with minimal info, recapping, content to continue discussing plans and roles. Best of all, he makes a very long-winded post after getting called out, which is full of various themes. A good target tknted: So far I'm undecided. Contributed a few ideas, and a bit of his own opinions which is good. Yet to weigh in on the lynch. Please post more. Node: Decent target. Talks about the mafia over and over, what they would do, why they would do, how they would do. Then proceeds to spam it up, direct suspicion at chezinu(always a safe play). He also semi-defends Kurumi, which is good, since kurumi is an easy target to pick on from the looks of things. There is also one other player on my list, who I think is the most likely to be scum and our best target. I would rather not pressure him/her right now though, because I want to see what they do on their own. In the absence of talking about my last target, I think the best lynch for the moment is Mr. Wiggles. Anyone agree or disagree? | ||
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Kitaman27, what do you think of lynching Barundar? | ||
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##Vote Barundar | ||
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Just to be clear Ace, you think our best lynch target for today is Incognito? As far as Barundar, let me clarify that i'm not saying Barundar has dropped serious scumtells, or that any single post points to scum. But rather that all his posts, taken as a whole, do not point to a pro-town player. Why Barundar is scum in four posts: + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2011 21:00 Barundar wrote: Some interesting thoughts already, I’ll see if I can add anything. Regarding the setup: We know there is 6 mafia total, including mules. If we assume there is at least 1 mule, and probably 2, this leaves a mafia team consisting of 4 to 5 members. This put certain limits to the options for mafia with regards to strategy. One possible mafia strategy is to pick an abundance of killing roles and carpet bomb the town in the hope of finishing the game fast, before detectives can get checks in and town can get reads on people. I don’t think mafia will choose this road, they only have 4-5 members, they don’t know the identity of mules, the plan is highly volatile because of medic saves + veterans, and lack of godfather/framer leaves them vulnerable. On the other hand, 1 KP is very little in a 25 player game. With this many detective roles, they can’t afford a long drawn out game. It’s in my opinion safe to assume that mafia will aim for at least 1 extra KP role a la CPR doc. Hence it might be worth it to deny them the strongest KP roles, but there is absolutely no reason to assign every KP role. There is quite frankly stronger mafia alternatives. Lastly I’d like to point to the fact that in every PYP so far the traitor has been picked by a townie. It’s safe to assume someone will be a jackass in this game as well. So we are really looking at a 7 person mafia team. Regarding number picking, clashes was a great way to divide people in to groups in PYP3. While the randomness usually guarantee mafia a top spot, since they can blanket pick a range of numbers without clashing with each others, it also split the players into small groups with 1 mafia in each nicely (no one picks 4, everyone picks 7, true story). @radfield I will follow a plan assigning thief + the very most powerful mafia roles to the top spots, but in PYP3 there was a strong resistance towards following any sort of plan. I disagree with some of your picks on the lynch list, which I think can be fairly ok for a townie, but that is specifics. I’ll hopefully be able to give better feedback once I’ve thought some more of it. This is the first post that rang some bells. Mainly because it's a very long post, but doesn't say a particularly large amount. No conclusions are drawn, generally he is very agreeable(which is good) and talks about generalities mostly. Mind you, this is the beginning of the game, so there isn't a ton to talk about. The most telling part of this post is that he promises to 'give better feedback' in the future, but never does. + Show Spoiler + On May 17 2011 01:09 Barundar wrote: My thoughts so far today: @Incognito votes, I don't see what he is doing as more than putting pressure on people, which is just one way to gather information. I would like some more reasons for voting Kurumi though, as Kurumi got himself mislynched day 1, when put under pressure in the current standard game. On the other hand he writes in a way so I can only make sense of half of it. @GM I can't talk for others, but I noticed that you suggested a plan that involves #6 to pick thief, but when you end up #6 yourself, and people assign you thief, you respond with: I find it curious that when your own proposition corresponds to the one you get offered, you shoot it down as mafia influenced. @OriginalName I can't help but notice you stay silent through the first 48 hours when we discuss plans, but when the planning phase is over, you go out and question if the planning is worth it in your first substantial post. And in the same post you manage to call control plans both pro town and anti town. This post starts the general trend: Recapping. Sure looks like he's saying alot, but there is very little substance here. He's wishy washy about Kurumi, soft-defending him then soft-attacking him. He pokes at GMarshall for a niggly detail, despite the fact that GM explained his postition just fine. Finishes with a sensible attack on OriginalName, who at this point is an extremely easy target to pick on. + Show Spoiler + On May 17 2011 16:11 Barundar wrote: Seems like you have all forgotten about the copy cat. With our first lynch we have an excellent opportunity to let the town decide what role the copy cat gets. If we lynch a vanilla, like deconduo claims to be, we effectively let scum decide who they want the copy cat to be, an easy choice is to just shoot into the top and grap a free role. Now I have no idea if copy cat went to mafia this time, but it certainly did last time I played. For the same reason I would be against lynching Scamp. He is number 2 pick, he is bound to have a sick role. If we give that role to the copy cat, we just end up with a sick role in an unknown position. I agree scamp is suspicious, but we will have to deal with him another day. Third, it helps us absolutely nothing to have ~10 suspects day 1. We won't get any information from being spread out like this, list checkers won't have anything to work with, and no one feels pressured. Not to mention with a multitude of targets, scum is going to pick who is going to get lynched, simple as. We don't need new suspects with every post, sorry to use you as an example GM, but you post you will have a look at KillerSOS, and 10 minutes later you have a finished analysis dubbing him scum. Next on your list is Dreamflower. Do you expect to nail the whole freaking team half a day into day 1? Have a look at the voting thread. So far we have: + Show Spoiler [current votes] + Incognito: 3 Ace, infinitestory, Foolishness deconduo: 3 kitaman27, Node, Eiii chaoser: 2 bumatlarge, incognito cheznu: 1 Fishball GMarshal: 1 chaoser Fishball: 1 kurumi KillerSoS: 1 GMarshal Mr.Wiggles: 1 Kavdragon scamp: 1 deconduo 9 targets in total. 6 people with 1 vote. Now I'm sure all of you have an excellent reason for why exactly your target is scum, but it clearly isn't convincing to the rest of us. So will you please consider joining one of the other targets? I don't want to limit discussion, and if you find someone obvious scum by all means go for it, but the way this is heading we won't get much useful information going into day 2. The three leading targets is incognito, deconduo and chaoser. Of the three I'm the least inclined to vote for deconduo for the reasons stated above. Chaoser has been dropping a bunch of one liners despite claiming to be busy. Yet the votes on incognito are the most convincing, I doubt both Ace and Foolishness would be mafia for balance purposes. I'd like to hear a better reasoning for incognitos votes than "I brought up the vote rigger combo idea, hence I must be town". Lastly I could be convinced to a policy lynch on cheznu. Whatever role he have, I'm sure it would disappoint the Copy Cat. Huge Post. Complete Recap. Very very little substance, and zero risk. Even has a vote count and a policy lynch in there. Yes, spreading out our day 1 votes is bad. This is obvious but worth stating. Let me be clear again, that what he is saying in this post makes sense, but the problem is that it goes nowhere. He encourages town, he offers advice, but he does not get his hands dirty. Read the last paragraph: Recap and conjecture, nothing risky, nothing opinionated, a few polite questions. Add to this a policy lynch on Chezinu.... after 96 hours of playtime it's not time to advocate a policy lynch. + Show Spoiler + On May 17 2011 19:01 Barundar wrote: Well I came back fully expecting a bandwagon on me. I know it's controversial that I'm saying you need to stop bringing in new targets constantly, and actually focus on the ones we have, but really, it serves no purpose. We had all yesterday to throw accusations around, now its time to reconcile. Chances are, some of the targets already brought up are fully legit. Why does everyone think they are smarter than everyone else? flamewheel there is no pressure in just one vote, albeit I admit it made node post. Caller you place a FoS, albeit it might have been justified, I fail to see how you make the jump from pointing a finger of suspicion into placing a vote for him. You are sure he is mafia now or what? Incognito you post that we have a lot of information now, and that we should read over the thread tomorrow. What about we read over the thread now, and actually decide on the targets that has something on them? I don't see the point of just being content with the current situation, that really only favors scum. Last post and we see an outraged townie at his best. "Hey Town! Smarten up and scum hunt" while not attempting to follow his own advice in the least. A note for flame, a note for caller, a note for Incog. No scum hunting, no risks, no opinions. Simply recapping what other people have done and are doing, and not attempting to further the discussion in a measurable way. Four long posts, and very little real substance telling us what Barundar actually thinks. There is good advice here, and some very pro-town points... but no pro-town actions. Do people disagree with this assessment. Is there more to Barundars play than good general advice and pro-town words? What am I missing here? | ||
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What I'm trying to say is: if someone wants to attack you, they're probably not going to be swayed by any counter-arguments you make. So wait to defend yourself until several people are ganging up and questioning you, or until someone makes a serious case against you. What you're doing is cluttering up the thread a bit, and making it harder to focus in. No hard feelings or anything, I just want to slow down your posting a somewhat. | ||
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On May 18 2011 07:49 Barundar wrote: Regarding incognito I have problems explaining his actual scum hunting so far. Loads of finger pointing and weak reasons for votes. For an example his vote on chaoser: Why does he think chaoser is 85 % mafia? Thats very high degree of certainty day 1. Since then he doesn't mention chaoser or try to convince others of his guilt. Same with Kurumi and GMarshal: + Show Spoiler + On May 16 2011 14:20 Incognito wrote: Flamewheel please nuke GMarshal. Thanks. ##Vote Kurumi My biggest issue with voting incognito is 1) He is a vet, so if town it would be a huge loss. 2) He provides pro town ideas, like the listchecker + vote rigger idea, as well as info on roles. His play before the day post was still riddled with random accusations, but his role ideas was good. He claims he is playing weird because he doesn't have time to play a proper day 1, but I don't buy that. He has been reasonably active in the thread, and he is obviously reading it. I guess my question to Foolishness and Ace is, how do you explain his contributions with regards to roles if he is mafia? Another post to look at! Hoorah! Fortunately it even came in before my attack. Lets see if it follows the general trend. This whole post is directing other players to vote for incognito, yet not really taking a stance either way. I finished reading this post, and wasn't really sure if Barundar was actually even going to vote for Incog(he did). Ok there are problems with Incogs play(agreed), there are some positives and negatives to lynching him(agreed). These are just generally agreed upon points, sensible points, but nothing that needs to be re-pointed out. He 'doesn't buy' Incog's excuse, yet isn't directly pushing other players to vote for him. Simply putting points and notes out into the wind. Best of all, he finishes with a question that has an obvious answer, and doesn't need to be asked. No risks, just recapping whats happened, with the ever so slightest hint of an opinion. Again, nothing that isn't sensible, and nothing that I particularly disagree with, but with the looks of someone wanting to have some substance behind their vote(as opposed to someone having substance behind their vote). | ||
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No one will argue that either Deconduo or Incognito have been pro-town in their posting day 1. They have not. But players who come across on the surface as NOT being pro-town are generally not the mafia. What we really need to find are people who are trying to post pro-town, but when you delve deeper are saying very little at all. That's how you lynch Day 1(and most days after that). Players who are not even attempting to play pro-town are typically townies. As I'm sure is obvious, this is where my suspicion of Barundar comes from. His posts scream to me someone who is trying to look pro-town, without actually adding much. | ||
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I like your plan, but think it unlikely that you can marshal enough support to get everyone following along. In that case a contingency plan needs to be made. | ||
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This comes early Day 1. Notice how bold and confident it is. Was he wrong? Yes. Honestly, his case is made off of very little information and many assumptions. But that didn't stop him. After his first accusation post he keeps pushing. Even after this, he keeps mentioning his thoughts. All throughout the day he points out scum. Not "gathering information", but real accusations. He accuses at least 5 people throughout day 1. Even when DH says he will consider lynching him, Kav remains aggressive, maintains his focus on DH, and dares DH to lynch him. That is aggressive, risky play. Now look at this game. Kavdragon suddenly retracts into his hole, is "afraid" of good players, and needs to poke for information. He doesn't follow a coherent train of thought, and his defense isn't anywhere near convincing either. He doesn't strongly accuse anyone of anything, and his defense shows that he cares a lot. Overall, strong case for red. I disagree with the Kavdragon lynch. I'll admit that I've been skim reading some of his later posts, but after a quick look through, I still don't get the scum vibe. I agree with some of your points Incog, but on the whole disagree with the conclusion. Mind you, I haven't read through his other games, so your opinion is a bit more learned than mine. Anyways, Kav has had some bold, unafraid posts in this game. He has been disagreeing with people with reckless abandon, and for at least the first half of the game, seemed very confident. Again, can't compare with his other games, but i'm really picking up the opposite vibe. Another possible reason to vote Barundar over Kavdragon, is that if he's mafia Barundar very likely took CPR Doc. He was 'assigned' this role, so would not look suspicious if he took it, and it's very difficult to discover if he uses it or not. | ||
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On May 18 2011 09:37 Incognito wrote: Please point out some of these "bold, unafraid posts". Disagreeing with people is normal, especially in a game such as this one where the lynch is fragmented. It also depends on what he is disagreeing on. I'm not sure I see these posts you are referring to though. Before you make a final call, I suggest you look back at some of his previous games, namely XXXVIII and XXXIV. They're totally different styles and it shows. And the point about Barundar likely being CPR doc is moot. There are plenty of good mafia roles. If we lynch one, we're likely to knock out something good. Funny enough I had some posts(the node fos and another one) that I was going to use as examples at the end of my post. Upon rereading I decided not to include them, as I felt they didn't really quite satisfy the requirement. Perhaps this is a sign you're right. Anyways, my hesitancy to lynch Kavdragon stems from 2 places: 1) In any other game I've played in, players who have posted like Kavdragon this game always flip Town. Nothing I've seen this game from Kav has triggered alarm bells for me, and to tell the truth has actually done the opposite(it doesn't feel like he's trying to be town). I realize you're basing your lynch push not necessarily off posts this game, but rather comparisons to other games. In this I'll have to trust you. If Kav lives another day, I promise I'll look through those games, but I don't have the pizazz to do it right now(i'm tired and ready for bed). 2) I can't shake the feeling that you are redirecting people away from my Barundar vote. I've been fooled by you before, and as such you have only yourself to blame. With that in mind, I feel it's best to go with my strong suspicion of Barundar(a suspicion you share). Are you willing to leave off on Kavdragon for Day 1(let ace shoot him if you want ) to lend me a vote on Barundar? After all, it's what you're asking of me. The aforementioned quotes: + Show Spoiler + On May 14 2011 13:28 Kavdragon wrote: I picked [1.5][0.5]. Am i doing it right? ...or we can get down to business: Node. Cool story. What role did you get? Node's ideas are wrong, and wrong in a way that benefits mafia. Mafia wants to get the powerful roles, and the will try to get them. Anything beyond this is WIFOM. We can build a list of roles that the mafia will likely try to obtain, and have town go after those roles. If a townie and a mafia try to get the same role, town wins: The ratio of mafia to townies is 1/4, so if we send one townie to block a role that the mafia want, we only allocate 1/4 of the manpower that the mafia has to in order to try for the role, and they have no better chance of getting that power than the townie does. This is very similar to the reason that 1-1 trades work well. I'm not saying that we should not go for pro-town roles, but that we need to also go for anti town roles. We have a manpower advantage over the mafia, and we should utilize it. Compound this with the fact that node states his opinions very tentatively, and you've got yourself an FOS: node. On May 16 2011 08:25 Kavdragon wrote: So... I meant to post this a while ago, but ended up without a internet connection till now. As I see it there are two general ways that each side can go: You can deny the other team's power roles, or you can gain your team's power roles. Statistically it's a horrible idea for the mafia to try to deny us, rather than gain power roles. (Because of the limited number of players on their team) Even though the mafia has the advantage of being able to communicate and organize, I think that the town still has a huge advantage at this stage because of sheer manpower. We have three times the number of players, and I think that using that advantage is going to be key in getting the upper hand in this drafting phase. What I mean is this: We have enough players to both block the mafia from getting their most powerful roles, AND still pick up our most powerful roles. The only thing that we need to figure out is what order we need to take those roles. As mentioned earlier, the mafia can't afford to get any roles that are powerful for the town, unless they are also powerful for the mafia. Because of this, I think that any powers that are weak for the mafia should NOT be chosen early even if they are very powerful for the town. The top picks should be roles that are powerful for both sides, followed by roles that are very powerful in mafia hands (but not so much in town hands), followed by roles that are powerful for town (but not so much for mafia). People have said that we should just not pick mafia roles, and lynch anyone found with them. I disagree strongly, as it is that sort of passive play that will allow the mafia to get exactly what they need, and rofl stomp us. Those role will very likely be taken regardless, so I'd rather do something like Radfield is suggesting, and assign them to people, so that we know where those roles are. Sorry if it covers some things that have already been talked about. Radfield: Even if Flamewheel isn't willing to take thief, it would still work if we just shifted everything down a position, right? | ||
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On May 18 2011 09:49 kitaman27 wrote: Why are you all assuming the Mafia 2 Detective is town? Think of the mess we will get into if a scum detective gets us running in circles after providing false numbers. This kind of information is a novelty at best. A good point, but once that player dies and his alignment flips, we would have our answer. As such, mafia can't kill him, and must let a dt live(assuming no janitor). It's a win-win really. Either way, lets discuss it no further and instead focus on the lynch, our actual priority. I have to go to bed, but I really hope people come around to vote Barundar. Bum, you need to pick up the torch here . If Kavdragon is lynched instead, so be it, it's not the end of the world, but I don't think it's our optimum play. | ||
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On the bright side, this lynch hopefully gives us oodles of information down the line, once incog and Barundars alignment flips. On another bright note, Incognito won't get targeted by mafia tonight, so in the event he is town he'll probably survive the night. Unless of course a townie shoots him, but if that's the case so be it. Mr. Wiggles, I very much disagree with your rolecheck list. There is a list of roles in this game that no townie should be caught dead with, so we want to use our rolechecks to try and ascertain alignment. Checking the people at the top of the list gives us very little information regarding their alignment. The top 6/7 all have an excellent excuse(whether legit or not) for taking an anti-town role. No one else on the list has that excuse. Anyone with a role check should be looking at whomever they think is scummy lower down on the list. If they have a scummy role(a role on the no-pick list) then they're probably mafia. I really hope someone does an alignment check on Barundar. Even setting aside my suspicions, he was assigned caller gf or cpr doc, so knowing his alignment is very important. Other players worth an alignment check: Flamewheel Infinitestory? Incognito Mr. Wiggles Chaoser dreamflower Players worth some medic protection: Radfield Bum Caller Ace - probably won't get picked off though foolishness - if town he likely has a defensive role anyways GMarshall - there are heaps of suspicion on him, so he is unlikely to get hit Scamp, as inventor, should get a skiff of medic protection Anyone else dying wouldn't be terrible at this point. I'd like to stress that flamewheel doesn't belong on any medic lists, or townie lists. He has done very little to contribute to the town this game. Besides, assuming he is telling the truth about JOAT, I'm pretty sure he can protect himself if he wants to. Inventor(Scamp) should be passing the vote-list checks either to whomever they have the strongest pro-town read on. Chaoser, despite finishing his interviews(his pre-tuesday excuse) still ended up contributing basically zero to the discussion. Simply popped in and voted Incog. Pick it up Chaoser. + Show Spoiler + Incog, you fooled me the first game I ever played. I was sure you were pro-town, but instead you dominated town, took control, and lead mafia to victory with about 5 members left over. Something flamewheel hosted... XXI maybe? + Show Spoiler + On May 18 2011 13:03 Kavdragon wrote: Also, since I won't be able to post this after my death: All newer players, please take note of the fact that Incog, Ace, and Caller all read me wrong. Vet's are not as good as anyone thinks, including themselves. The only thing you should be afraid of is their egos. | ||
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Now, that being said, the Barundar vote was the initial 2nd choice to voting for Incognito, so if by chance mafia were attempting to save Incog, then Barundar would have been the place to vote. However, if you're looking at votes to save Incog, it's the three that came down the stretch for Kav that did it. NO votes came down the stretch for Barundar(except for Foolishness, a valiant effort, but a failed one). Bumatlarge. Where were you(I don't mean this literally)? You vehemently defended Kavdragon early on, but completely disappeared for 6 hours, despite the heat growing considerably on him, only to pop in 1 minute after the day post to apologize. You never once pushed for Barundar, a player who was a viable alternative to Kav. On May 18 2011 14:25 bumatlarge wrote: Are you guys honestly trying to pin this as kav's fault? You guys are all awful, Im 100x better then all of you. Excuse me while I net us some scum. No need to be aggressive when you did so little to stop it from happening. In other news, I look forward to you netting us scum. | ||
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On May 18 2011 19:41 Scamp wrote: GMarshal, Node, and Flamewheel need to explain their last-second voting of KavDragon. Meh, townies do this all the time. Mafia very rarely do this. If Incog flips red at some point, then lets come back to this, but for now.... Also, if we assume that one of Barundar and Incognito is green and one red, then it would have made sense for mafia to stack the votes on the opposite player, since these were the leading candidates. Not to try to rally another player who was still 3 votes away. If both were green, then mafia players would never make a last minute push for Kav, another green player. A last minute push for Kav only makes sense in the context that both Incog and Barundar are red. This is possible, but unlikely given that Barundar was pushing for Incog (who looked like he was getting lynched). I guess from this I have to infer that Barundar is probably town. The problem is that at this point every time I read his posts my eyes mist over red, so I'm going to have to let other players be the judge of him moving forward. | ||
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On May 18 2011 20:08 Scamp wrote: But for now what? What's wrong with getting more information? Fair enough, there's nothing at all wrong with it. I'm just trying to head off any knee-jerk accusations. | ||
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On May 18 2011 20:10 Barundar wrote: I was looking forward to hearing from you when I flipped! In all seriousness I pretty much ignored your analysis as stupid and went to bed fed up. But if you have questions for me I'll try and answer as well as I can. I think it basically comes down to this: You're somewhat tentative in your posting, and tend to offer sensible, sometimes obvious, but always general advice. Your vote post on Incognito screamed mafia to me, because it's so very tentative and wishy washy. You kinda put reasons for voting Incog out there, but don't actively push them, and don't really try to convince anyone to you viewpoint. For me this rang alot of alarm bells. Also, since the lynch your posting is still making me think scum. In one post you throw minor suspicion on about 6 or 7 different people, but don't really make any strong statements any which way. Anyways, the data is pointing me in another direction, so I'm forced to conclude for the moment that my issue is with you posting style more than anything. Also, I've been wrong many times before on Day 1(and let it color my perception), so unless someone else really leads the charge, I doubt I'll push for you again. | ||
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On May 19 2011 08:26 bumatlarge wrote: So if anyone has multiple KP and is unsure of who to hit, deconduo is an obvious choice Hold the phone. Decon claims to have taken bulletproof and missed. Bulletproof is almost useless for a mafia player, and there are wayyy more other pro-town roles that also benefit mafia hugely, while still looking pro-town. I don't see an anti-town player drafting for Bulletproof, hopefully we can mainly agree on that. It's possible, but would be a really bad play. There are 18 players below Decon, and I bet at least one of them went after Bulletproof. If someone else drafted it, then they will call him out. Assuming Decon is town, it also gives every player above him a modicum of protection from mafia tonight. As a general note on using a bunch of KP night 1. This is a terrible idea. Mostly for the obvious reason that the amount of info we have will skyrocket after our first mafia kill, and as the game goes on. But also, there are multiple roles in this game which allow players to avoid lynches, in the event this happens, town really needs some KP to deal with it. | ||
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Also, there should be more discussion about the inventor. We shouldn't give free reign to the power roles to do whatever they feel like. So far the two most popular suggestions have been bulletproof vests and vote checking kits. If a vote checking kit was to be created, town should inform which group to use it on so we don't have overlap. Like I said before, no ambiguous names should be tolerated. If we see a "potato" in the night post rather than "A bomb that only blows up when given to mafia", then the inventor should be strongly considered as a lynch candidate. Agreed. Inventor(Scamp) needs to create one or the other in my mind. Obviously if he's mafia he will just give it to his buddy. Given that, a vote-checker is much more useless to mafia than a Bulletproof vest. So, lets see a vote-checking kit tonight. | ||
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On May 19 2011 09:00 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I still think a bomb that must be passed every 12 hours and explodes when held by mafia but not by town is a good thing. :p That'll find mafia for sure, and kill them too. Also, "Vote-checking Kit" is still ambiguous. For all we know, it will check vote-lists and tell mafia how many people with roles voted to help them snipe. I say we put in a policy where the person who received the inventor item must claim that they did so, so we can keep them accountable. That way, if they feed us false information, we can do something about it. That's still a moderately useless item for mafia to have. Remember, it's only a one use item(I assume). Also, what would you name your bomb that could be unambiguous. Assuming Ver would allow an item like that, obviously it would be great. | ||
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Here's some interesting tidbits: Everytime I read the name Chaoser, I pronounce it Chowsah in my head... Instead of seeing Infinitestory, I read Infestory. Like a pantry, but infested. | ||
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It should have been apparant from the way I was posting in thread that I didn't take VR, but given how much your pushing, I'll assume you actually did check me last night. Here's the thing, if you know my role, which I assume you do, you shouldn't even need to question me. You should be saying " ahhhh, I see, I understand certain things now". You get what I'm saying? Yes, I didn't take vote-rigger, and that was a risk if mafia went for it below me(and then rigged the votes; obviously I would get held accountable). hmm, originally I was going to say more here Ace(and Fishball), but have edited most of it out. Lets be smart. On May 19 2011 13:56 Mr. Wiggles wrote: And guys, I'd just like to let you all know I'm king today too. :p Ver, does the politician have to post in the thread with their ##nuke or ##lynch target? I've been assuming this is the case, but now i'm not so sure. I think this guarantees us a politician. A kingmaker on it's own it at worst a nuisance for town, at best a useful double lynch. Combined with a politician it is massively nasty. There is no way mafia would take Kingmaker without a politician, and no way a townie kingmaker would make Mr. Wiggles the king. Do people disagree with this hypothesis? Mr. Wiggles, I'd like for you to cast your vote right now for KillerSOS. If you do not, I think we will almost certainly lose a pro-town player to the politician. From my understanding, the king lynch operates like a dayvig, so if you use your power now, it's gone and there is nothing for the politician to use. If people want to call me scummy on this, that's fine, but it's the smart play. | ||
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Originalname, it would be nice to see you pick up the pace. From a brief look, your town play was fairly solid in XXVII, at least enough to draw a hit night 2. It would be nice to see you contribute to the discussion in this game as well. | ||
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Wiggles needs to lynch Chezinu. Not KillerSOS as I previously mentioned. Also not 'someone he thinks is scummy'. Chezinu is outrageously hard to read, and has basically no posts to analyse. It's a trait that gets you into trouble when something like this happens. + Show Spoiler + I really like playing with you Chez, and you make me laugh. No hard feelings The rest of those players could go either way right now, though I'm not convinced Incog is scum and flame is edging upwards. Other than that, I'm going to be looking at Callers past games tonight, and try to get a better feel for him. I will hopefully give Node some time as well. | ||
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Speaking of Ace, why the hell are you softballing suspicion on me over my role? If you know my role, you know EXACTLY why I didn't follow my own plan. Fishball, assuming you rolechecked me(which you are insinuating) can you back me up that a) you know exactly why I did what I did, and b) there is no reason to be suspicious of me not taking VR. If you keep this up Ace, I'm probably gonna have to make an all-caps angry role claim.... Wiggles, where did you go. Lynch node if you pop in in the next hour, but i'm going to go over Caller right now, and may or may not make a case. I originally had him as town, but I seem to recall him playing fairly semi-lurker when he's mafia, and he's been quite quiet this game. Nothing sure yet though.... | ||
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Ver can you give us a run down of how the kingmaker/ politician roles work in conjunction. Does the politician have to post in thread to use the power? Does the politician lynch show up at the end of the day or immediately? Will Wiggles be informed if he loses his lynch? etc. | ||
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I'm not going to shoot Incognito just yet. I still don't understand how anybody is buying him nuking ANYONE as a pro-town move. If you're a suspect and you nuke someone who is also on the suspect list then of course it's going to look like a "good move". I'm shocked some of you are actually buying this. You misunderstand. I'm not saying Incognito is pro-town because of this move. I'm saying all WIFOM or motivations aside, killing chez is great for town. I have my suspicion because of your Day 1 plan. I mean you can't even give me a decent reason for why you didn't follow it? But don't role claim, I could have said what your role is myself. For now we'll drop it. You're still softballing suspicion on me here, so lets not drop it. Fishball, please back me up: ACE IF YOU KNOW MY ROLE, YOU KNOW MY REASONS. I'm honestly racking my brain trying to think of why someone town aligned would be calling me out after role-checking me, and I can't find any. In fact, if you think I'm so scummy, blurt my role and build a case based on that, because I guarantee not one other player will find it scummy, or find any reason for you to have posted about my role in the thread at all. | ||
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On May 20 2011 07:22 Chezinu wrote: "Be Strong, Be a Martyr, Be Brown." As the nukes fall from the sky and the Post-apocalyptic California becomes a reality. This is War.... War never changes... Fire falls down... Fire falls down! The Beast within is scorched. The fire shall purify me...Nothing shall hinder me now... Nothing... I no longer have conflicts within my soul. For death is imminent. I can now speak without repercussions. My town, forgive me. I disappoint not only myself but the town as a whole. What have I done? What can I claim that benefits the town? The Truth... I may be a hero of the past but in the present I'm nothing but a clueless player.. An illusion of greatness... Winning is deceptive.. For it is fleeting.. One moment, your on top of the mountain, the next your in the valley. Does it matter what greatness you've witness on the peaks when you are blinded in the darkness of the valley? Maybe so..maybe so.. For that is where one can gain his strength back. In hope that one day, through the sacrifice of a martyr he might one day stand on the peak. But what martyr can one hope in to be willing to give up his life to save another? Especially to save someone like me who is crazy and unrepairable by all means of psychiatric help.. How would they know if I would behave well on the mountain top? How would they know that I wouldn't abuse the opportunity given to me? If I were to be saved... I would need to be changed myself.. For my evil desires will lure me into insanity once again.. There must be a way to kill the evil within, is fire the answer? Will the fire consume the evilness within me and burn it into a crisp. Will this fire birth in me a new desire? A desire that will spread out of me and consume those around me? That they too will be free from there wickedness? Brown Forever, Forever Brown. What can stop this cycle of brownness? A hero is needed, A martyr who is stronger than brown itself, a priest willing to resurrect him whom sacrificed himself. For the hero, the martyr, and the priest shall unit together to form an unstoppable town force that will use fire to burn the impurities from brown earth. For brown is always slaking because it is always dearth. If you picked Hero, I'm really glad Incog nuked you. | ||
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On May 20 2011 05:46 chaoser wrote: Wow, I leave to get on a bus to NY and four hours later we got GM saying he's DT and Incognito saying he's America and nuking people. Here's a question for Incognito, all your actions so far have been motivated by a desire to seem pro-town. You keep going back to this idea that you are contributing a lot and you keep reframing the stance that you aren't doing what mafia normally do. I feel like your argument boils down to "You can't 100% say I'm mafia therefore I'm not." or "You say I'm scummy but would Mafia really act this way that stands out?". While that's WIFOM, the fact of the matter is that you have been acting very anti-town. From picking America to pulling that "wishy washy" lynch on Kav, you've been consistently acting anti-town. It's a trend that frankly doesn't strike me as very helpful and definitely doesn't put me at ease. ##vote: incognito for now. Let's see how Chezinu flip. Lets see how you flip how bout. That was not a contribution. That's a bunch of rehashed attacks(some legitimate) on Incognito. No one needs to write a paragraph about voting for Incog at this point unless they are scum(and he is green) or if they're bringing up something new. Assuming one of Incog or Chez is green and one is red, who is your other suspect out of the 6? Which players do you have a pro-town read on and which an anti-town read. If Incognito was day vigged today, who would your second suspect be? Caller, you wanted something to do, tell me if Chaoser is red. Also, if you could check into tnked that would be a worthy assignment. Flamewheel, you know your alignment, so assuming GM is telling the truth, who do we need to off out of the other four? If you think Incog is town, then you just found 2 players out of three who are mafia. Who is who? Bumatlarge, where have you gone. It's Day 2, it's time to pick it up, not disappear. | ||
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On May 20 2011 05:46 chaoser wrote: Wow, I leave to get on a bus to NY and four hours later we got GM saying he's DT and Incognito saying he's America and nuking people. Here's a question for Incognito, all your actions so far have been motivated by a desire to seem pro-town. You keep going back to this idea that you are contributing a lot and you keep reframing the stance that you aren't doing what mafia normally do. I feel like your argument boils down to "You can't 100% say I'm mafia therefore I'm not." or "You say I'm scummy but would Mafia really act this way that stands out?". While that's WIFOM, the fact of the matter is that you have been acting very anti-town. From picking America to pulling that "wishy washy" lynch on Kav, you've been consistently acting anti-town. It's a trend that frankly doesn't strike me as very helpful and definitely doesn't put me at ease. ##vote: incognito for now. Let's see how Chezinu flip. Also, is there a question in here?? It's good to know that someone "consistently acting anti-town" doesn't strike you as helpful or put you at ease. So when should we lynch Chaoser? I realize we have other business at hand but if there is no agreement among incog, flame, node, caller then this bares looking at as a sober second option. I'll also admit I haven't gone over his posts a ton, but certainly will be doing so. | ||
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So where does that leave us? It means that unless a strong majority has a solid read on Caller, flame or Node, we take our lynch elsewhere and start offing the rest of the mafia. The Kavdragon list isn't going anywhere, and obviously our investigative roles will narrow down the search somewhat. Consider that the mafia will not be firing into the Kav lynch list, given that each kill would narrow down our suspect list. Those players are safe from mafia, so lets not do their job for them by firing indiscriminately. So what am I really advocating then? That we play this normal and try to lynch the scummiest player around. Yes, many think that's incog, and if most people think he's scum then I'm not going to waste the day trying to defend him. Instead I think we should direct our votes towards Chaoser, who strikes me as very clearly scum. I don't have time right now to build a case to his liking, but his posts(and actions) fairly speak for themselves. If there is still a need or an option for me to build a case against him tonight, I will. ##Kinglynch: chaoser Plenty of other suspects around for our regular lynch. Originalname is a great choice(albeit an easy/safe one), but there are a few other decent choices as well. ##Vote Originalname | ||
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On May 21 2011 04:34 Ace wrote: @GMarshal: If we don't lynch Incognito then who from the remaining players on the list is the second Scum? We have to clear that out first. Does ANYONE else on that list appear Scummier than Incognito? If so, vote for them. I'm not trying to be a dink here, but I don't fully understand why we need to clear the list out. I understand we need to eventually, but why right away, right now? We have the information, so it can wait for us to deal with it until we're ready. Our ultimate goal is to kill the mafia, so if targeting players on the list doesn't get that done the best, then we let it lie for now. No? No one really has a anti-town read on either Caller or flame, GMarshal seems town aligned, Incog seems town to a large portion, and Node doesn't seem particularly scummy. It seems to me that waiting a night cycle and putting some investigations on those remaining 5 is a prudent course of action. If mafia want to shoot players off the list, great. Better them than us. Also, GMarshall, it's a bit ironic that you mention no one is coming to Incogs defense, because actually quite a few players are. Myself, Barundar, yourself, tnkted, dreamflower and maybe a couple others. Mind you, in my mind those are almost mostly 'lock-solid townies'. | ||
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On May 21 2011 05:02 Barundar wrote: You guys are getting side tracked. Town shouldn't vote for either of you unless you are mafia, the point is moot. Can people give their opinion on this Kings kill already so we can get back to the normal vote? I want to know if KillerSOS dies so I can start pushing for Chaoser :/ Personally I think KillerSOS is a bit of a waste. Chaoser and Originalname should be dying I think. That being said, any mix of Chaoser + one of the others is a good day I think. | ||
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On May 21 2011 05:24 Ace wrote: We clear it out because we know 2 out of 6 are scum. Why would we go another direction when we already know where to look? That makes no sense. Secondly a "large portion" of town hasn't claimed Incog is innocent, especially looking at the voting thread so that point is false. If you don't have an anti-town read on Caller or flame, believe GMashal and Incog are town, and that Node doesn't seem Scummy then who does that leave? You're right, a large portion of town has not. You and GMarshall are right, it's only the last 2 pages or so that have come to incogs defense. You have to admit though, that the chances of either framer or Godfatherframer being in the game is fairly decent, and the chance of them framing incog(assuming they exist) is fairly good. Mind you I'm not saying that's what happened, and I think there probably ARE two mafia in that list. My list right now from townie to scum is: GMarshall, Flamewheel = Incog, Caller, Node. The problem is, that the scummiest players on there (caller/node) don't strike me as all that scummy. I have a few scummy reads right now, alot of pro-town reads, and about 8 inbetweens. Hence, why not let our investigative roles do their job(we know we have GMarshal) and THEN start the firing lines.(Mind you, this raises all sorts of framer problems and suicide bombers problems) Anyways, I'm not super hard against shooting into the list, I just think that waiting a bit and clearing out some of the other scummy chaff is a better move right now. | ||
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On May 21 2011 05:45 Foolishness wrote: If there still is a mafia on the list after Incog and Chez are dead I want to kill Node. To be perfectly clear, I'm not dead set against this. But when does it stop? If only 1 of Incog, chez and node flip red, are we gonna lynch caller, flame and GM? At some point we need to accept that there are a number of alignment changing roles that could be in the game. Also, as I mentioned before, I don't trust my judgment concerning Incog as he's fooled me before. Him being lynched isn't the end of the world, and gives us some strong information at the worst(no matter the flip). + Show Spoiler + Where the F is the politician. I honestly cannot see why mafia would take kingmaker and not politician. It's pointless. My current assumption is that the mafia politician is an inactive, and that the mafia actually planned to have the politician lynch by now.... | ||
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I think we should shoot Killer, and vote normally. We get very little info from a KillerSOS vote, regardless of flip. We get all sorts of info from a Incog/Node vote no matter what. | ||
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On May 21 2011 09:24 kitaman27 wrote: You are contradicting yourself. If you believe the Incog/Node flip would give more information than a Killer flip, why shoot Killer first? Wouldn't it be better the other way around? The info I was referring to is where people place their votes and why, etc. No one even needs to post a reason to vote KillerSOS, so even if he flips red, we get nothing from the vote. Given the fact that this thread is ultra-quiet, i'm getting the feeling we may be heading towards several dead townies. I'd much prefer to lynch Node over Incog, but Incog dying will really clear the air and allow things to move forward as town, which is what we need to happen. There are certain things that will be easier for me to see once Incog flips. That being said, I think Node is the better lynch. ##Vote Node | ||
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On May 21 2011 09:33 KillerSOS wrote: Managed to get through the last 2 pages on my horrible phone internet... If you want to lynch me it's a waste, but feel free. I'm PYP Tracker Great, I'm willing to call off this hit. No mafia player would take Tracker. It's a terrible role for them in a game with a plethora of roles for them to take that are helpful to both mafia and town. We have rolecheckers, a simple rolecheck confirms this. | ||
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Lets either focus on Incog/Node or preferably focus on chaoser/Originalname. No one has built an official case thus far against chaoser, but he's had a lot of defense, so I'm going to start. | ||
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On May 21 2011 09:41 KillerSOS wrote: Ace visited Radfield. Ace said so himself though. Whoa, that sounds like BS though...... | ||
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Sorry KillerSOS, bad luck for you if you actually followed ace, but that's a totally unacceptable answer. I think maybe one of the only unacceptable answers you could have had.... | ||
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On May 21 2011 09:55 kitaman27 wrote: Does it even matter if killer is the tracker or not? Roles != Alignment They kinda do. It's not a hard rule, but I bet at the end of this game over 90% of the people have roles which go with their alignment. But I agree in principle, any role or roleclaim is only an addition to info we already have, it's nothing concrete. On May 21 2011 09:54 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: On second thought I'm not switching votes and I don't buy Killer's claim at all. Radfield I'd switch your vote to killer if you think incog is town. Node isn't going to die by standard lynch, theres not enough time left. That assumes Killer doesn't get Wiggled first. Anyways, I'm down. Vote to kinglynch Node ##Vote KillerSOS | ||
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Incog will flip town. Lynching him is a terrible idea. On shooting into the list: This is not just a bad idea, it's an anti-town idea. It's been said a couple times lately, and has really solidified it for me, but it needs to be hammered home. We vote to kill scum. Not to narrow down lists, not to try and confirm players. In a game with this many messed up roles in it, pure scum hunting is our best tool. The idea of policy lynches into the list is an awful awful idea. | ||
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On May 21 2011 11:26 Mr. Wiggles wrote: ##Lynch: OriginalName Care to walk us through your thought process Wiggles? | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + No offense ON, different strokes for different folks I guess | ||
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From looking through the thread, Originalname was about option E on the list, after Node, Incog, KillerSOS and Chaoser(in no particular order). How did you end up with ON? | ||
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On May 21 2011 12:14 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I was thinking, GM/Caller/FW were town. From GM's list, I was thinking there was a frame anyways. I personally believe Incog is town, so if there was no frame, then Node would be the scum there. Node claimed inventor, and said this: " If you look towards the beginning of the day, I drop a couple of hints that I have the role." I found this post: So, I figured I'd let him live for now. Worst comes to worst, we do an alignment check/role-check and hold him accountable for all inventions. Now, for ON. His entire play this game, has mostly involved only posting one-liners, and not much else besides calling for killing players with no reasoning. Contrast this to some of his posts from XXXVIII, where he was green: + Show Spoiler + On April 11 2011 07:53 OriginalName wrote: MiG Analysis Postcount 8/863 Total (1 pregame post) Experience Level: Newbie Nothing inherently wrong here: excited states he wants a protown mayor. Still looking protown here, doesnt add anything that his first post doesn't. This first point should be stressed more, who cares if we elect an assassin sure that one is pro town BUT ALL THE REST OF THEM NEED TO KILL POSSIBLY TOWNIE BODYGUARDS TO GET HIM! And there will be crapshoots by the assassins which may hit either alignment but since townies outnumber scum by so much (as is balanced) the chances of them reducing our town count before we lose signifcantly more than we gain by the assassins is a great reason why Protact should not have BGs. Im still not seeing the scuminess here. Adds on how medic protection on Prot would also be another reason to spray and pray and cause more blue sniping for assassins, this leaves reds to kill outspoken townies as well as assassins may handle their blue snipes for them. A wild DrH approaches! MiG ran! Can't Escape! He states his reason for regurgitating information is that he is slow. Im still of the mind that even if he is restating opinions of others at least hes posting SOMETHING. He's sheeping really hard along with town ---> Do note that this is not always a scumtell and while it can be used to base an arguement off of it really doesn't mean anything without other tells along with it. HOWEVER he is also playing the n00b card alot and while it is true I want to see more of this analysis out of him before i truely call him all out scum. His last post is correcting a misspelling of his name. So: Mig is: Sheeping Doesnt want an assassin in a position of power. Wants a Town mayor (Don't we all?) Stressing he is new. I think hes more of a Newbie Sheeping Town than Scum On April 11 2011 08:07 OriginalName wrote: My reason for voting GM is that I want to keep DrH out of office for this exact reason. Its not that hes a bad player or anything it's because hes fucking aggresive! The last thing we need is somebody who is mayor to make a last minute rash decision and lynches town. Especially when our original suspect turns out to be scum. On April 11 2011 09:20 OriginalName wrote: Thanks for being sane Coag ^_^ Also redFF the reason im restating something is because SOME PEOPLE *cough* are not getting the picture Protact and scumhunt his ass off and I wouldnt get an honest shit about most of his opinions, and neither should you. Im merely picking THE ONE CANDIDATE that is actually feasable in my mind. Kav just has too much heat on him to deserve 2 bodyguards at this point. DrH i have my worries towards but in my mind hes still a better choice for a pardoner then an Assassin, do note ASSASSINS ARE NOT TOWN I dont care if he decides that he cant backstab us HES NOT TOWN, he could be fakeclaiming red to try to get into an advantagous position what does that mean HES STILL NOT TOWN! a TOWNIE MAYOR is better than a NON-TOWNIE MAYOR Pleas go back and note the difference between TOWN and NON-TOWN (ie SCUM). Those were all taken from Day 1 as well. Strong opinions, analysis, general usefulness. Now contrast this with Insane 2, where he was 3rd party with me. There, he did a lot of one-line posting with some slightly bigger posts interspersed as well, while generally lurking and trying to hide from the public eye. He's following the same pattern of lurking and spam in this game that he was there. This led me to believe that he was likely Red. I understand why you thought he was scummy. He was scummy. But you never pushed for him at all, or ever brought his name up as a suggestion for your hit. Killer is also scummy, as is chaoser. Many people are arguing that Incog is scummy. However, you decided to kinda hit someone of your own choosing. This isn't super scummy, but surely you see that unless ON flipped red, it throws some suspicion on you. | ||
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On May 21 2011 12:26 bumatlarge wrote: Radfield I see you keep tossing around suspicion, but I think you should give your major suspects at the moment. Dont think you're scum, but I would find it helpful to look at who you suspect at the moment to help my own list. Gladly, though as I admitted earlier, I don't have a long list for scummy players. Rather, I have a list of pro-town players I am almost sure about, which is generally how I play. I'd be happy to elaborate on any players, but I doubt this is really the time for that. Tomorrow after the lynch though. Solid Townies: Meapak_Ziphh/Dreamflower GMarshal Barundar Fishball Radfield Incognito Very-Likely Town Wiggles Deconduo bumatlarge Kurumi Maybe Town: flamewheel Caller Scummish: Chaoser KillerSOS Node Kitaman27 Foolishness I've been swinging back and forth from prob-town to scummish quite a bit, so I've decided not to think about him for a while. The rest I have reads on in various states. Several I have deliberately left my reads off the list for the moment. Looking at it, I'm stretching my scummy list a touch here with the last two additions. | ||
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On May 21 2011 12:28 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I mentioned it, others did too. That's also why I said, when talking about KillerSOS, "other lurkers". You're right. Fair enough. On May 21 2011 12:33 infinitestory wrote: This is false, by the way. When Incog began building his case on Kavdragon, Caller had already made a couple posts against Kav and voted for Kav. As for Node, I trust his Inventor claim. The breadcrumbing looks pretty solid, especially the post Wiggles pointed out. Whether he's town or not - I'm undecided. But what matters is that now that we know Node is the new Inventor, we know who to hold responsible for the inventions. Inventor is a pretty transparent role, as has been stated many times. Let's get some inventing going once this lynch is done. You're right too. I missed that, but I think my point still holds some validity. That was a whopper of an accusation at Kavdragon when he had multiple other targets to go after. Also, I completely agree about the Inventor. My posts are getting sloppier and sloppier. It's way past my bedtime, but I figured I needed to stay up for this one. | ||
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Also, apologies about Incog. Only way he gets bought is if he's scum. Bed Time. | ||
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To be clear: I will not progress a case against Ace until Incog is dead and his alignment ascertained. First off, while I'd love to keep this to myself, the mafia should be able to deduce my role by now anyways, if they haven't, they're really bad. It also seems like there's some sort of ball of suspicion gathering towards me, so lets have this out. Clear your minds for a minute everyone, throw away any impressions of me, and really just look at the facts I'm presenting here. It's easy to skim read, but I really ask you to consider the following: Consider for a moment, that you are a role cop. Night one, you decide to investigate Radfield. You know he said he was going to take Vote Rigger(in his plan), and you're curious as to if he actually did. Night ends and you get you result back. Radfield did not draft Vote Rigger as he claimed he did, rather he drafted bulletproof. So, knowing this, what is your first thought? Is it: Hmmm, I wonder what possible reason Radfield drafted bulletproof for, he said he was going to draft Vote Rigger, I should post in the thread and put some pressure on him to see if I can discern his true reasons. OR, is your reaction: Oh, of course radfield took bulletproof. Given his history, it makes perfect sense. Obviously I should keep pretty mum about his role, as his role becomes useless if ever outted. For those who do not know my history, you might be confused as to why it would be obvious why I drafted bulletproof. I feel fairly confident in this claim: No other player on TL has been shot as often and as early as me. I have died Night One or Night Two in every single town-aligned game of mafia I have ever played(except one). At least half of those have been night one deaths. I have even been shot on Night Zero. Any player who know my history, would not be suspicious in the least when finding out I drafted bulletproof. Regardless of the fact that bulleproof is a poor role for mafia to have chosen, when there are a number of roles which appear town aligned, but also significantly help mafia. If I was mafia, WHY WOULDN"T I HAVE JUST TAKEN VOTE RIGGER?? It's an awesome role for a mafia to have, and would've give tme a huge amount of power down the stretch. Done with the role. Judge for yourself if Aces response to that information was strange, or if it was my role choice instead which was strange. Say what you want about my actions this game, but they have been transparent. Wondering why I voted a certain way? There's reasoning there, so go look. Wondering about anything I've said? It's been reasoned out and explained. I was wrong about KillerSOS, and frankly I think I was wrong about Barundar on Day 1(though you'll notice I have 180ed on him). Fact of the matter is, I was willing to ignore KillerSOS and let him live after his claim. Read the thread, my thought process was there. BUT, he claimed to have tracked Ace(really bad luck). If he had tracked practically anyone else but the one public visit we already knew took place, then he was in the clear. It really seemed like a bs claim at the time. Blech. Infinitestory, I'd love to hear why you think I'm scummy and I really hope it's not just because Foolishness and Ace have repeated it like 10 times each(effectively casting doubt on the analysis of a player known to have good reads). Is it because I am linked to Incognito in your eyes? Is it because I have been willing to stick my neck out and go to bat for certain players? Is it just a certain feeling you have? | ||
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A) I'm a moron for revealing I'm bulletproof OR B) I must be mafia because no townie would ever reveal they were bulletproof As far as B goes, lets have a show of hands of how many people already deduced my role from the conversation that was had. My role was forced when Ace started softballing me, and revealed the moment I responded. Speaking of Ace softballing me. I just looked through the thread, and EIGHT TIMES he lumps suspicion on me for not taking VR. EIGHT!! Honestly, I really can't imagine any player who knows my history mentioning it even once. I recommend people go back and look at his comments regarding my role, it starts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9333256 Knowing what you know now, do his comments make sense from a pro-town perspective? | ||
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A) I'm a moron for revealing I'm bulletproof OR B) I must be mafia because no townie would ever reveal they were bulletproof As far as B goes, lets have a show of hands of how many people already deduced my role from the conversation that was had. My role was forced when Ace started softballing me, and revealed the moment I responded. Speaking of Ace softballing me. I just looked through the thread, and EIGHT TIMES he lumps suspicion on me for not taking VR. EIGHT!! Honestly, I really can't imagine any player who knows my history mentioning it even once. I recommend people go back and look at his comments regarding my role, it starts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9333256 Knowing what you know now, do his comments make sense from a pro-town perspective? | ||
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On May 21 2011 23:16 kitaman27 wrote: As for Node's inventor item, do we agree that he should provide GMarshal a protective item? If GMarshal ends up dead, then we know to who to lynch, unless anyone sees a flaw in the plan? This is an good plan with one large flaw. Suicide Bomber would kill both GM and Node with one go. Mind you, that would not be the end of the world as it would net us 1 scum, and narrow down the list. Given all the roles in this game, we can't plan around every single one, so I would say a BP vest for GM is a good idea. Ver: If a player was given a BP vest at night, would that protect him from a nightkill on the same night? | ||
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On May 22 2011 02:55 Fishball wrote: The role has also lost a lot of it's usefulness, since he revealed it to the public. I also don't like the fact that he revealed it this early. We're still in Night phase, and a lot of stuff can develop overnight. By all means, I would have pulled that move during the next Day phase, when there is indeed a bandwagon forming on Radfield for the lynch, assuming that he is Town. Absolutely it has, but lets face the facts. You figured it out, Chaoser likely figured it out and probably a bunch of other players. I highly doubt that the mafia were sitting back scratching their heads over my role, not to mention the fact that they probably wouldn't shoot me at this point anyways, since tons of suspicion is getting lumped on me. A bandwagon was forming on me now, so it seemed prudent to reveal for two reasons. First, to try to head off the wagon before it reached critical mass, second to stop any over-eager townies from shooting me. On May 22 2011 02:55 Ace wrote: Yea Radfield has some imaginary thing going on as to me softballing him. The suspicion was warranted but if I really wanted to screw him over I would have just outted his role. Either way it doesn't excuse what has happened the last 2 days. This is not quite true. You outting my role would heap suspicion on you, not on me. That is why you didn't out me, you just cast all sorts of doubt my way. Not to mention hitting me with questions that you knew I couldn't answer without outting myself. Anyways, we have more pressing matters at hand. For what it's worth, here are my thoughts heading into night. If we are dead set on lynching Incog tomorrow, then we shouldn't bother to waste any actions on him tonight. GMarshal should get a bulletproof vest from Node. This opens them up to a suicide bomber, but we risk worse by simply encouraging everyone to protect him. Having node make the vest leaves whatever other protective roles we have open and able to defend other key players. Obviously alignment checks in the list, but with a possible framer/godframer out there it may make sense for DTs to go with their guts. tnkted is a good role check(bus driver) though there are other good targets as well. Protective Roles: Deconduo is for sure town in my eyes. I understand your argument ace(I am difficult to lynch), but it certainly doesnt apply to decon. Meapak_Ziphh is also almost surely town. I had a strong townie feeling on Dreamflower, and Meapak is independantly oozing green as well. Fishball is town partly because he's playing reverse mafia tactics. Coast and don't bother contributing at the beginning of the game, contribute more and more as the game goes on. A few other players are surely or very likely town as well(you can check out my list a few pages back), but I doubt will be particularly juicy for mafia to hit. | ||
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On May 22 2011 07:38 Incognito wrote: Radfield: going ahead and lynching me because lynching Ace would be an "unpopular" move is not very pro-town. If you agree that Ace is mafia, then you have to see what he's trying to do here. He is trying to get massive political support for both our lynches when there really is no evidence. It doesn't make sense to go ahead with lynching me if you see that Ace is mafia. You say that I "obviously need to be lynched, as no case against Ace can progress with all the suspicion on my head". Can you clarify this statement? I don't understand the reasoning as to why Ace is unlynchable until I'm dead. If Ace's behavior indicates that he is mafia, as I've shown, then we should lynch him, period. Our goal is to lynch mafia. You're probably right Incog. But my reasoning is simple though and goes like this: I don't think I can effectively make a case to lynch Ace over you. Too many players in the thread can no longer read your posts with an open mind, and have already decided you're scum. I don't think any effort on my part will sway their mind. It's the price you pay for opening up Day 1 with scummy play(which you did). On the flip side, it's a fairly subtle case that needs to be built against Ace at this point since he hasn't stuck his neck out at all this game and has yet to come down on the wrong side of a lynch. Once you flip town, people who at the moment are not willing to look deeply into Ace's play will be more willing. Mind you, if everything goes wrong in the next cycle, we may actually lose by mislynching you. 6 mafia + 1 traitor vs 7 town. Also, it goes without saying, but if you survive the night, do not use your nuke. It will simply get bussed again. We just have to hope that the politician is not in the game(and it seems it isn't). Also, it's sad to say, but you dying tonight would do wonders for the town. Fortunately the busdriver only has one more bus, so he can't bus you tonight and steal your nuke tomorrow. I'm betting you get bussed tonight onto a solid townie though. | ||
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Fishball, I'm absolutely thrilled you survived the night. Incog, I'm absolutely thrilled you died last night. So, one of Caller or GMarshal is mafia, or Incog was framed. Obviously GMarshal is town, so that gives us a possibility of Caller being mafia. One of Ace, infinitestory, Foolishness, Chaoser is also mafia, though we could be looking at the godframer in here as well, as I think two of these players are mafia. Infestory should get the pass here, as he is very green compared to the other three. Ace, Foolishness, Chaoser. I think 2 of these players are scum. Yes, that assumes that one of the players took the Mafia XII Godfather(the godframer). Ace is certainly scum though, so lets start with him. Frankly it's remotely possible that all three are mafia(the godframer covers on of the others last night) Foolishness, can you please explain your exchange with Chezinu? Why would you passively agree that he was your lover if it wasn't true. I really need to read that exchange a couple more times. Chaoser, if you are town, then please contribute. I propose we currently leave Caller alone(despite the seeming paper trail leading to him) and instead focus on killing Ace. ##Vote Ace | ||
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On May 22 2011 10:51 Chezinu wrote: The Sanity Speaks Out I have an announce I would like to make. I have been pretending to be the traitor the whole game to try and waste the mafia's only attempt at guessing who the traitor is. I started off this game with a lover and I thought to myself, "Why would mafia ever want to be a lover with Chezinu -- that is suicide" So in the beginning, I was thinking maybe my lover is innocent and the mafia were hoping that my lover would accuse me of being mafia. So, I decided to mess with the mafia and with my lover and pretend to be the traitor to see what they would do. . Well, my lover never really accused me in the thread -- maybe they wanted to live themselves. So I went extreme and guess what? Town didn't even accuse me very much nor mafia. So I was thinking maybe they are keeping me around for my destructive behavior. I ended up PMing my lover that I was the traitor before I died by a nuke coming straight after me. AND guess what happened??? I lived!!! So I decided to play along with being a traitor a little longer in hopes that the mafia would waste their guess on me. I think about now they have already used it because my lover has stopped talking to me. Because the mafia will probably protect me again tonight I thought I would reveal my lover in hopes to eliminate both of us. Sadly, I wasn't able to probe out any other mafia members from my lover as I had hoped. Now, as you all been waiting for, my lover is + Show Spoiler + Foolishness I know this is crazy and I don't quite understand the mafia's decision on this either.. but that is how it happened. So hurry up and kill me or foolishness. I might have some explosive secrets to reveal. On May 22 2011 12:21 Foolishness wrote: I honestly don't think is going to save us from dying. On May 22 2011 12:22 Foolishness wrote: Rather, I should say save YOU from dying. On May 22 2011 12:26 Chezinu wrote: That is the point. Mafia will probably protect me night, so I thought I would open up the target a bit to increases the chances of us dying PS: I'm not the traitor wtf? Also, I just noticed people are loading on caller in the voting thread. I'm not necessarily against this, but I would say that we should hit Ace first. I'm willing to be swayed however. | ||
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TLDR; Townies Node Radfield Infinitestory tnkted Bumatlarge Barundar Caller Flamewheel Mr. Wiggles Kurumi Kitaman27 – leaning townie Dreamflower/Meapak – leaning townie, but not too confident Eiii – leaning townie Fishball – leaning townie Mafia [Village Idiot]OriginalName[/Village Idiot] KillerSOS Chaoser Foolishness In Limbo Deconduo Some of my own notes as far as this goes: Fishball, Decon, Meapak are all town. Eiii and Kitaman27 i'm leaning towards scummy. Caller and tnkted I'm not sold on. Other than that, I agree with this list. This means my scum short list is: Eiii Kitaman27 Ace Chaoser Foolishness Also, the mole has popped. I sincerely hope that there is only one mole, as it's really powerful On May 20 2011 18:03 Incognito wrote: Instead of discussing "if I flip red" or "if I flip green", can you at least TRY to analyze what I am? I mean, its not that difficult. If Chezinu is town he should claim his numbers and role. I propose the following. Mr. Wiggles dayvigs me. When I flip town, you lynch Ace. I messed up my day 1 strategy, and it has blown up into this big mess. And while I think Ace is town, he is totally off the right track. While I understand how you think my crazy actions and reckless day 1 play is anti-town, Ace's play is equally as bad. And his ego and thread influence are big enough to drive this town into the ground even if he isn't mafia. Its obvious Ace isn't playing in the best interests of town and is instead blowing up the thread to feed his ego and perpetuate his godlike identity. Hopefully once we're both dead and the dust clears, the atmosphere can be calm enough again that some others such as Foolishness/Flamewheel/Radfield can step it up and actually lead us somewhere. I will be mostly gone tomorrow for a recording session so aside from perhaps a small comment here or there, I won't be saying much from here on out. Final thoughts: Based on yesterday's lynch, it seems really strange that the mafia would stack 2 on Kavdragon, especially since they knew he would flip green, and that it would be the most likely list to be vote checked, given that town now knows that Kavdragon is innocent, and that I am heavily suspected and am also on that list. Upon further reflection, I feel like the vote list has been tampered with (likely), or that GMarshal fabricated it to lead us on a witch hunt (unlikely). Regardless, it shouldn't be accepted as the word of god. Out of the people on the list, the only person I really had suspicions about was Chezinu. Node seems plenty town to me, because his early contributions in the role picking phase were more than just "I don't like GMarshal's plan". While he hasn't been particularly insightful, Node doesn't seem like he's planning his actions. He seems to be reacting to information naturally and spontaneously as it is uncovered, and he seems to at least be thinking about the game dynamics. This generally isn't a mafia trait. Mafia tend to want to act only when they have a plan an they know how their action will affect the course of the game. When there are a lot of unknown variables around, mafia is reluctant to take a position. As Caller said, mafia operate best in an environment where they are acting from a position of certainty while the town is acting from a position of doubt. Node seems to be genuinely wanting to contribute, even when there is almost perfect chaos in the thread, an environment where mafia really doesn't need to do anything. Caller day 1 looks plenty townie. He isn't afraid to make accusations, and generally seems unafraid. It would be nice to see some more conviction from Caller, but for now there doesn't seem to be any pressing reason to suspect him. GMarshal day 1 acts consistently with his XXXVII appearance as town. Immediately gets started on a plan and is intent on contributing. His accusations of KillerSOS and Dreamflower are weak, but don't say much otherwise. His reaction in the voting is more consistent with his town play where the only thing he is really guilty of is that he is easily swayed. But GMarshal does that as town too. Of course, there are many reasons why a mafia GMarshal would want to post a 2/6 vote check list, but I don't see it as a likely outcome. GMarshal really isn't a dominant player in the grand political scheme of things, so volunteering this kind of information seems like little gain, especially if you know that its very likely that Incognito will be lynched. Flamewheel has been taking a nonchalant attitude this game. Seems to have been a good choice. Either way, he thinks logically and doesn’t seem to be afraid of anything. No eye popping content coming from him, but nothing suspicious either, as he provides logical and reasonable data. Overall, the fact that 2/6 mafia showed up on my list is surprising to me. Im going to expect that I was framed or something, but don’t let that stop you from just vigging me today. Barundar pops up to semi-defend Kavdragon (when he FOSes Caller for adding another suspect). A wreckless and unnecessary move given by the fact that Kavdragon was indeed town. Looking over at Radfield’s Barundar analysis again, I have to disagree. Barundar’s post does give an inconclusive opinion of me, but his points about me are legitimate and he does credit me for contributing key ideas. The kicker though, is the last sentence in that post, which is a question. Barundar asks “I guess my question to Foolishness and Ace is, how do you explain his contributions with regards to roles if he is mafia?” This indicates that Barundar isn’t trying to “subtly push the Incog lynch without being responsible for it”, as Radfield claims. Barundar doesn’t post as if he is trying to sway public opinion. The open endedness of his question suggests that rather than attempting to spread doubt, he is legitimately confused and wants to find an explanation to explain the incongruence between my wacky accusations and my other pro-town ideas. Post day 1, Barundar keeps up with showing town-aligned actions. Posts a list of suspects (after the vote, so as not to split the vote further), and posts a reasonable blues list along with opinions and an insight into how the lynch unfolded. Barundar is pretty town here. Radfield has the most elaborate pre-day 1 plan. Although I disagree with a lot of it (including a long list of roles that are unreasonably and irrationally labeled as “anti-town”), this is legitimate contribution. Radfield isn’t afraid of throwing out ideas and tweaking/improving his plan in response to criticism. Radfield not taking the role he assigned himself is not suspicious at all. He even said himself that the top 6 players should outwardly “agree” to follow the plan even if they aren’t. Given that Ace hasn’t come out yelling and screaming that Radfield picked an obviously anti-town role, it’s pretty much a no-brainer that Radfield’s pick makes sense somehow. Ace says that Radfield’s accusation of Barundar makes him suspicious. Even assuming that Barundar is town, this accusation makes no sense. Townies are wrong all the time. The important thing to analyze is not the fact that Radfield accuses a townie, but how he does it. In this case, Radfield’s accusation is coupled with reasonable sounding analysis, and Radfield continues to defend his case after the initial accusation. If Radfield as mafia doesn’t make sense since he could’ve jumped on the Kavdragon train and pinned all the responsibility on me. Radfield’s attack on Barundar doesn’t look like a scum post trying to hide the fact that Radfield is mafia. It just seems like a misguided analysis. Radfield is transparent about his thought process, and consistently shows that he is thinking reasonably and isn’t sticking to hard and fast policies. Infinitestory immediately jumps into the discussion on roles. His reactions to my unexplained voting are excellent. In response to my request that Flamewheel nuke GMarshal and my vote for Kurumi, infinitestory not only questions me, but lists 3 points of why my accusation was ludicrous and shows that he went through GMarshal and Kurumi’s posts and found nothing noteworthily suspicious. Not really something mafia would be naturally inclined to do. On night 1, his official accusation post of me is long. Didn’t read it, but its reasonable. Infinitestory had over 2 days to hop on my bandwagon, but it seems like he was legitimately confused and waiting for an explanation before coming to conclusions. It doesn’t seem like infinitestory is trying to hide anything here. Tnkted has a few reasonable posts in the early game, suggesting that the top 5 spots be protected (not really that original, but ok), as well as a suggestion for inventions. His later post summing up his thoughts about me/Radfield/Ace and his suspects seems reasonable. He’s spontaneous and inquisitive. Nothing suspicious here. Bumatlarge contributes early. A bit late out the gate and copies some stuff from Radfield though. After this, he posts a lurker list and votes one of them, which doesn’t say much, but isn’t a contribution. After this though, he still seems inquisitive and seems to be giving a genuine attempt to figure things out. More contribution from bum would be nice, but at this point no reason to suspect him. Its getting late now and I don’t feel like doing writeups on everyone. Townies Mr. Wiggles Kurumi Kitaman27 – leaning townie Dreamflower – leaning townie, but not too confident Eiii – leaning townie Fishball – leaning townie Mafia OriginalName KillerSOS Chaoser Foolishness In Limbo Deconduo Hmm I only came up with 4 mafia candidates. Well if one of Chezinu/Deconduo make it in then its 5. I’m going to guess there’s 1 mole. Anyway, good luck. | ||
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You are forgetting the godframer. First he is immune to votelist checks, second he can cover one of his buddies. I do agree there is a likely scum on the Barundar train(as mafia would not want to let us get a list of 5 confirmed townies). However, Dream/Meapak is a solid townie, Killer is dead, I'd like to think I'm fairly solidly town, which leaves Bum and Kitaman27. For me, Kitaman is alot scummier than Bum. However, that being said, and I agree we cannot mislynch today, I think we need to lynch Ace. Yes, we have paper trails leading us in certain directions, but by pure scumhunting, Ace is the most mafia player left in the game. I think everyone should read through his posts regarding my alignment after he found out my role, and please read through Incog's post against him as well. Also, I realize I am somewhat biased against Ace at this juncture, so I'm hoping other players can confirm or deny what I'm seeing. + Show Spoiler [Aces condemation of my role] + On May 19 2011 13:23 Ace wrote: We've got a problem here. Radfield according to your breakdown of "strategy" earlier in the game you were supposed to pick up Vote Rigger. But I checked you out last night and you aren't the Vote Rigger. I won't announce the role you have, but it is concerning you didn't follow your own plan. Explain. On May 19 2011 13:30 Ace wrote: ooooooo my now things are getting interesting! Incognito is still going to get lynched, but somebody screwed up. Flamewheel isn't the problem here though. Something is off between Radfield and deconduo. On May 19 2011 13:36 Ace wrote: *nods in agreement* I had to put my gun on hold last night because I talked to myself and said "wait, the unRadfield/Incognito duo would try and pull some slick stuff!" and they did. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADFIELD! WHERE ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? On May 19 2011 13:37 Ace wrote: you're 100% correct ^_^ talk about "telegraphing" huh? lol On May 19 2011 13:43 Ace wrote: Yea. The way they behaved Day 1 they both played "risky" by their own words because imo they felt invincible. Waiting for Radfield to answer why he didn't pick up Vote Rigger. On May 20 2011 01:29 Ace wrote: I know what your role is and thanks for the explanation but I really want to know why you didn't follow your own plan? Secondly don't tell Wiggles who to vote for. On May 20 2011 01:48 Ace wrote: Depends on your definition of anti-town and what the circumstances are. Whether it's anti-town or not isn't the case here and I never commented on anyone's pre-determined "anti-town" lists. The fact that he is high up in the draft order and made a plan that he didn't follow, combined with his sketchy play Day 1 makes this an issue. His answer to my question was pretty bad and I expected something more. On May 20 2011 07:00 Ace wrote: I have my suspicion because of your Day 1 plan. I mean you can't even give me a decent reason for why you didn't follow it? But don't role claim, I could have said what your role is myself. For now we'll drop it. + Show Spoiler [Incognito's attack on Ace] + On May 21 2011 18:44 Incognito wrote: Ace's guide to playing mafia Ace does not fail to disappoint. This game should be a great example for how to play politics and how to play mafia. Lets look at Dreamflower's points against Ace. First, she points out that Ace is tunneling off of very little information, and isn't looking at other people's suspicious actions. Only a few posts into the game, Ace suddenly comes to the conclusion that I'm mafia because I'm finger pointing, and pushes that point through the thread. Yes, I was finger pointing. But why does this make me mafia? Ace gives no such reason. Instead, he continues to push this idea until it finally becomes the truth. Between day 1 and now, Ace has successfully turned the small point about finger pointing into a mass lynch Incognito movement. This is exactly what mafia wants to do. They want to push bad lynches while inflating the notion that the target is "scummy". Once the target flips town, the accuser merely points to the evidence that the "target was scummy". And they are likely to get away with it, given the fact that they've gotten half the town to believe that "target was scummy". So what has Ace been doing here? He's been pushing a movement to lynch me off of shoddy evidence while hiding behind his "finger pointers are suspicious" shield. Let us examine the point about finger pointing. Is finger pointing inherrently suspicious? It is true that mafia want to lynch townies. It is also true that it is generally bad for town when there are multiple candidates out on the field, each with shoddy reasoning. It is also true that bandwagons formed on shoddy reasoning are anti-town. The crux of the matter is that it is anti-town when townies are lynched on shoddy reasoning. Ideally, the mafia want to push innocent lynches without being linked to the lynch. Mafia want to start a bandwagon on townies without being noticed. Why would town want to finger point? Generally, it is a bad idea to vote without explanation. Yet plenty of townies have done it, some to apply pressure (read: Foolishness in XXXVII for Seraph). Inactives also tend to do this. Is this pro-town behavior? Generally not. Is it an indication that said player is scum? No, townies do this all the time. So in general, while finger pointing isn't a very town-friendly action, it isn't a "scumtell". It is a slightly anti-town action that may be good support for other evidence that someone is mafia, but it should certainly not be the basis for any scum accusation. The second piece of Dreamflower's analysis is critical. She points out that Ace has literally ignored all my real contributions, hasn't criticized any of my actual points, and hasn't said anything definitive about anyone (except me and Radfield, who Dreamflower points out was also accused off of shoddy reasoning - Ace accused him because he started the Barundar lynch, even though we have no evidence of Barundar's town alignment). Note how Ace also doesn’t respond to Dreamflower’s accusation, but simply points out some errors in Dreamflower’s post that aren’t crucial to her argument. If you go back to look at Ace's posts, Dreamflower’s accusations are accurate. Ace ignores all my early game points about the politician/vote rigger combo, town roles, and thesis about how the game is progressing. Now I would perfectly understand if Ace disagreed with my points (people like Radfield certainly did). Yet he didn't do that, he merely ignored my post and throughout the whole entire game has refused to acknowledge the fact that I made some key contributions to the discussion. In the meanwhile though, he attacks me for asking people to reread the thread without specifying anything special. Its clear Ace is reading my posts. Selectively reading, that is. Ace is glad to point out where I'm scummy, yet fails to acknowledge some pretty important contributions I have made. Ace agrees that Kavdragon is suspicious earlier in the day ("something piqued my interest), prods him for a few pages in the thread, and even agrees that Kavdragon is timid, but then turns full circle and attacks me for leading the Kavdragon lynch. This is an excellent example of how mafia play. Ace is really the one who starts the Kavdragon lynch. Yet in public opinion, I am responsible for the lynch. Here's what happened. After Caller and Ace get the ball rolling, I fall for the bait and go on a rampant lynch Kavdragon train. My confidence and thread influence work in the mafia's favor this time and is perfect for Ace, as he can now do a 180 and appear to be "saving" Kavdragon while assigning responsibility for the lynch to me. When Kavdragon pops up town, Ace immediately points out the Kavdragon voters as super suspicious while making himself appear like he tried to stop a town lynch. But what did Ace really do? He accuses Kavdragon of BSing when Kavdragon claims he is "trying to gather information", and tells Kavdragon that he won't live til day 2. Later in the day after I have already started on the lynch Kavdragon train, Ace comes out and agrees that Kavdragon is acting timid, thus throwing more fuel onto the fire. Ace never votes Kavdragon, and toward the end of the day, switches his vote back to me (from Radfield) and states that "suspicious are the votes on KavDragon". Complete 180 from his previous (vicious) attacks that Kavdragon wouldn't live to see day 2 and that he was so timid. Once Kavdragon flips green, Ace trumpets the alarm, cries foul, and pretends like he never had a hand in the Kavdragon lynch. This is an example of perfect execution of scum play. Ace shows a textbook example of how to effectively finger point as mafia. Unlike me on day 1, he actively gives reasons for Kavdragon’s scumminess (the reasons are false scumtells, but they seem convincing as reasons nonetheless). This accusation catches fire, which leads others (Caller and myself) to take notice and agree with them. Once we build cases of our own, Ace then backs out right in time to pin the responsibility on me, using it to add fuel to the anti-Incognito case. As evidenced by the fact that he uses the Kavdragon lynch as a reason to paint me red, Ace clearly did not simply change his mind about the Kavdragon lynch. He intentionally started the lynch and blamed it on someone else. Townies have no reason to start a lynch and then turn around and accuse people on the bandwagon. Ace is hiding the fact that he was a major contributor to the Kavdragon lynch. Continuing on into day 2, Ace pops up and cries foul yet again after checking Radfield. While it is very likely that Ace is a capitalist and truly did check Radfield, his announcement does a brilliant job of adding fuel to the fire and furthering his case against "the unRadfield/Incognito duo", which is a complete fabrication. While it is true that Radfield has defended me, it should be pretty clear that Radfield is actually trying to think things through. In any case, Ace's cries of foul play further cast suspicion on Radfield even though Ace never reveals what Radfield's role is. Ace accuses Radfield for not following his own plan (hardly an indication of mafia), and announces to the world that Radfield "tried to pull some slick stuff", implying that Radfield has shady play without giving details. Ace creates a drama about Radfields role, gives out no details, and uses this to further his anti-Radfield case (at this point Radfield is inexplicably tied to me in his eyes). This effectively furthers mafia goals and places doubt on Radfield without Ace having to lie or show any real analysis. Could this action have been done by a townie? A townie has no reason to make a big fuss about Radfield’s role if it is not an absolute indication of scum. After Radfield says that anyone who knows his role should understand why he did not follow his own plan, Ace accepts this explanation, yet still “wonders” why Radfield didn’t follow his plan. Soon after, Ace drops the issue. From Radfield’s explanation, it seems clear that Ace should’ve already known the answer before asking the question. Which means that the only reason Ace could have asked the question was to cause a commotion and spread doubt about Radfield. Ace makes no conclusions and provides no further insights. His reaction to Radfield’s “its obvious” explanation shows that he wasn’t being inquisitive or trying to figure things out, he is intentionally spreading doubt. The vote list also furthers his case against me. Note however, that none of this evidence singles me out as mafia. He trumpets the "kill people on the vote list" mantra to make people want to focus on killing me instead of trying to go for some other suspects. He accepts the vote list at face value, and frames any attack on non-vote list suspects as irrational and anti-town. However, as I and others have pointed out, there is no real reason why we should have utter faith in the vote list. Ace himself even admits that he believes that the possibility of having a framer/GF is high, yet continues to pressure people to focus on the vote list. By focusing on the vote list, Ace is attempting to get townies to conclude on their own that I am mafia, once again without providing any analysis. Here's how the psychology works: Ace emphasizes that 2/5 on the list are mafia and that it is irrational not to lynch off the list. This causes people to think to themselves, "2/5 are mafia, so who do I think are the most suspicious?" Given Ace's constant pushing that I am mafia, townies are likely to subconsciously come to the conclusion that I am mafia, especially if they don't have the time or the willpower to go back through the thread and do a careful analysis. In essence, Ace's reinforcement of the vote list guides the players to the conclusion that I am mafia without him having to provide analysis. Once I nuke Chezinu, Ace again picks at the weaknesses in my posts while ignoring how my actions run counter to what the mafia would want to do. He claims that I agreed that America was an anti-town role (I did not), that I am going against my day 1 plan (I did not have a day 1 plan), that if Chezinu flips mafia then I am bussing him (no reasoning), and that I am anti-town because I did not discuss the nuking. Yet later he declares that "Chezinu is the obvious scum for sure". Is not discussing the nuking anti-town? Well, by itself, not discussing the nuking can by no means be claimed to be a pro-town action, but it isn't necessarily anti-town either. I had many reasons for not discussing the nuke, including not wanting to be bought by a potential mafia politician. Not discussing the nuke doesn't say anything about my alignment one way or the other. Notice how Ace goes about attacking me here. He tries to pin me on ideas I didn't say, paints America as an anti-town role, and questions how not discussing the nuke is pro-town. What he basically does is picks out errors I make and questions how they are pro-town. Logically, yes, not discussing my nuke is not pro-town (although its not anti-town). Ace uses biased questions and frames them in a way that makes me look guilty, when in fact I am not. He emphasizes things that are easy to paint as anti-town actions, while at the same time ignoring contributions I have made that show I'm pro-town. This is exactly what mafia want to do. But mafia is a game where you cannot judge someone as mafia just by how many sketchy actions they make. Proper analysis considers all of a players actions and analyzes them in the context of “what makes this action an action that only can be made by mafia”. Ace has not considered this, and his case against me is flimsy at best. His points consist of minor “scumtells” such as being on the wrong lynch (twice now), finger pointing, picking America, and nuking without discussion. In conclusion, the evidence shows that Ace is undeniably mafia. His actions perfectly align with a mafia mindset, and he carries out actions that could not be made by a townie. In the Kavdragon lynch, Ace is hiding from the fact that he is a major contributor to the lynch, and with the Radfield day 2 commotion, Ace was intentionally spreading doubt. Ace has effectively planted the "Incognito is finger pointing and thus mafia" idea into people's heads. Once I flip town, he will get off the hook because everyone will believe the "fact" that Incognito was scummy, when in reality, Ace has merely fabricated this entire idea. This reminds me of the movie Inception, which, ironically, features Leonardo DiCaprio. I must applaud him for this cleverly thought out humor. | ||
Radfield
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Radfield
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Radfield
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Node, excellent work on the Police Radio. That was a really good invention assuming GM died last night. Also, I think we can operate under the assumption that there is no suicide bomber. Last night was an absolute perfect opportunity to bomb GMarshal. Mafia were wayyy up, and could afford 1 member in order to cut the legs out from under us. | ||
Radfield
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On May 22 2011 23:32 bumatlarge wrote: We can wait for the radio before jumping on to anything for certain. I still doubt that Ace is scum, even with incog popping town. Can we also analyzed exactly what happened yesterday and what mafia KP is at right now? I think we can reasonably assume it is at 1. 2kp were used yesterday to hit FW and scamp. 2kp were used today to hit node and barundar. Chez the scum CPR is dead, so that leaves only 1 kp for mafia to use, if we assume mafia didn't get very unlucky with stacked hits (also assuming ace used his KP on incog). I think we are in a better spot then people are making us out to be. Lack of politician and CGF, evidence of alternate GF leave 2 open roles. Neither seem to have consistent KP like CPR, so we can probably dote on what they will be. NRA Member Hero Janitor Vengeful player Zombie Framer These are what I find most likely at this point. NRA, janitor, hero and framer seem obvious, as the other two require getting lynched. They all involve causing confusion for town in order to extend the game and as such put it in their favor. I do not think they have more KP then town at this point, so we might have the upperhand if this is the case. So I think we should for the moment heed what caller and radfield say, and take more then just DT actions into consideration when deciding lynches. It will benefit us until we see more information that say otherwise. I think the radio will help a good deal with this, as I find it unlikely scum picked dt roles. And also I will have to confess, I am not really the watcher the radio will show that, but I can explain if you want me to. Otherwise, I'd rather keep my real role a secret. I didn't think you were the watcher to tell you the truth, hence the semi-accusatory tone. + Show Spoiler + I disagree with your list though. I think it more likely that in addition to taking the really powerful anti-town roles(cpr doc, godframer), they would try to take roles that are both useful to town AND useful to mafia. Roles that would hopefully cause other townies to get vanilla. Role Cop, Assasin, Capitalist, Bad Santa, Vig, Mafia 4 Vet, etc. Frankly, Role Cop or Capitalist + Assasin is an excellent choice for mafia. This is all besides the point though. | ||
Radfield
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I'd like people to notice that Ace is still pushing for me. First I was scummy because I defended Incog, then I was scummy for taking bulletproof. I'm not really sure why I'm scummy now. Mass claim does us nothing in this game. Way too many roles, and you can always just claim vanilla. Caller mind you, should role claim. He is in a position where a fake role claim is harder to pull off, and he could potentially get busted by someone lower down the list. Lets do a real quick break down of aces last post: On May 23 2011 02:59 Ace wrote: As for the GM list there are a few problems here. 1.) GM is still alive Why would the mafia want to keep any information roles alive? Even bumatlarge, a claimed (or fakeclaimed) watcher has been left alive. Assuming both are town then the Mafia have some way of screwing up information roles, otherwise there is no reason to leave them alive. Spreading doubt about GM's lists 2.) As stated before, the players on the GM list have been purposely trimmed down This is actually a big deal. GM finds 2 scum on the list and Node along with Flamewheel are killed. Of course I shoot Incognito and there we have it. Not actually quite sure what you're arguing for here. This has all been said, and you're not adding anything new. 3.) Barundar is dead and flipped town No one has talked about his role flip, but the more important fact here is that almost all the top picks have been eliminated along with the Inventor. Only Caller and Radfield have survived among the top 5, with GM being "explained" already. These 2 were not hit for a reason, and I'm inclined to believe that Radfield being alive is more suspicious as his Bulletproof is now a nice excuse for not being night hit. Also note that Barundar had 5 votes on him, flipped town, and 4 of those suspects are still alive. The only one that died was KillerSOS who got lynched due to a crap train. Read this again folks. The idea that me and caller are scummy because we are alive is outrageous. The mafia have only had the chance to kill 4 players this game, and every one of those kills has made sense. Maybe if the mafia had been dumping excess kills on randoms this argument would hold water. Bulletproof is not an excuse for not getting night hit, it's simply a reality. YOU were the one who forced my claim and outted me, so don't try and make this some elaborate cover up by me. Obviously if I could of had my way, my role would have stayed hidden all game. You were all for killing KillerSOS Ace, so don't try to dodge that one. You may have wanted to lynch Incog, but you were pushing for Killer to get the kinglynch. Perhaps all the people on the 'crap train'(the third one this game according to Ace), wanted to lynch him for EXACTLY THE SAME REASONS AS YOU. You are again trying to hide from having blood on your hands. Damn right I wanted to lynch KillerSOS, he was super scummy, and dropped a bunk claim(tracking you). 4.) Back to Incognito If you think I'm scum because Incognito died scrub your brain. I've already explained that he was playing Scummy from the beginning but we're not going to rehash that. Read the thread if you want. I've read the thread, and I think you're scum because you have contributed nothing, poked at people and then distanced yourself(Kitaman, KillerSOS), and focused on getting the best townie in the game killed. 5.) Since it's almost, or surely LYLO either everyone should be role claiming now. Starting with Caller of course. I expect that no one is going to claim King Maker or bus driver so we'll be dealing with a few lies here. With no solid direction on who is Scum today, I think this is our best option. Caller should roleclaim. No one else. A mass role claim nets us nothing as anyone can claim vanilla and that they tried for a dead role, not to mention there are over 60 roles to choose from. On the other hand, a mass roleclaim helps the mafia loads. We likely still have power roles hidden away, which is where they should stay. Not to mention that a mass role claim completely diverts our attention away from scum hunting, and back onto policy. Terrible idea. for effect: ##Vote Ace | ||
Radfield
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Anyways... ##Vote tnkted Chaoser's was a fine claim. We can now not bother with him, as he will either die, or present us with more info. Mafia only have 1 kp(without the CPR), if they want to use it on chaoser, that's fine. Consider that we have a Parity Cop, Alignment Cop, M2DT, Modern Detective(chaoser), Capitalist? (Ace) and a role cop(no mafia role cop would have checked GM, they would have known he was telling the truth, makes perfect sense for a townie to check GM). As far as the lists go, we're probably only actually looking for 5 mafia(not 7 as caller seems to be insinuating). Neither the mole nor traitor had likely flipped by yesterday. Also, I would guess there is at least one godfather type role. + Show Spoiler + On May 21 2011 13:09 Ver wrote: INCOGNITO (5): Ace, infinitestory, Foolishness, Chaoser, Barundar killersos: 10 flamewheel meapak kurumi deconduo radfield eiii incognito mr. wiggles tnkted kitaman KillerSOS is to be lynched * Incog List: Chaoser is off the list for the time being(we can press him for bums role and Bum can semi-confirm him). Infinitestory is town. That leaves Ace and Foolishness. Ace(#1) is wayyyyy more scummy than Foolishness. * KillerSOS List: Meapak is town, Decon is town, Wiggles is town. This leaves one mafia out of: eiii, kitiman, kurumi.(#2) * With tnkted and Chez gone(#3 and #4), that actually just leaves the godfather if there is one, or as caller pointed out, one of Fishball, Bumatlarge, GMarshal or Caller is mafia.(#5) * We also have a number 6 now, but as he is the mole, we have very little to go on. Any townie, no matter how confirmed, could now be mafia. If we imagine for a moment that there isn't any type of framer role in the game, things actually add up very nicely. In fact, if there is no framer type role, then Caller being mafia works perfectly, as he would cement GM's first list, and fill out the missing players from the Day 2 lists. This would assume 1 godfather, but no framer. Wiggles, it's a good idea to use GM's check on the tnkted vote today(and get every living player on the vote), since presumably it would give us the total number of mafia. But in reality this wouldn't really work, as the godframer would just frame a player, bringing the total number of mafia back to where it should be(4). So checking the entire player list actually doesn't give us any concrete mafia numbers, as we can't deduce whether there is a godframer or not. Actually, reading through your post again you go through this possibility as well as the possibility of investigating one of the one-vote players from Day 1. I think this is the better option, or we have the option of telling people to vote certain ways today. Anyone who we think is scummy doesn't vote with the group, but instead votes for a single person. This hopefully gives us a big list of probable townies on one list(tnkted) and a bunch of scummy players with single votes elsewhere. GM then checks whomever he thinks most likely to be scum. Godframer can't cover everyone, so there is a good likelyhood GM can WIFOM his way to a successful check. I would say that these players should all be voting singularly today, and not with the group: Eiii Kurumi Kitaman27 Ace Chaoser Foolishness Caller Any other player that people think is scummy(myself? Bum?) Everyone else votes with the group on tnkted. Thoughts? Also, we should consider having the parity cop, role cop and alignment cop all claim. They are basically sure townies, and I doubt mafia would have the balls to counter-claim. We don't necessarily need these claims just yet, but certainly if you are headed towards a lynching tomorrow. | ||
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Meapak, I agree we should be discussing tomorrow's lynch. I think Ace is it by a long shot. He is still tunneling me(an unkillable, analytical player), with very little reasoning: On May 23 2011 04:36 Ace wrote: And Node was killed Night 2 along with Barundar Flamewheel got a nuke bussed on to him What don't you understand here? There was a concentrated effort to eliminate the top of the list. Radfield wasn't shot NIGHT 1, before he was revealed to be Bullet proof. Are you misreading on purpose here? This isn't even a sensible argument anymore. Now because I wasn't killed or shot at night 1, I must be scum. I realize that this argument has been made in jest before(I DO die a lot night 1), but I hardly think it carries much weight. Yes, there was a concentrated effort to eliminate the top of the list, hence why #1 and #2 picks were shot at and why the #6 pick(me) was not shot at. Is that clear enough for you Ace? On May 23 2011 04:47 Ace wrote: Ok let's start over. In the beginning of the game Radfield comes up with a plan. It is later revealed he doesn't follow this plan by me. Myself and Fishball have a conversation about Radfield not following his own plan. Radfield starts complaining. My logic is that of the 2 night kills on Day 1, Radfield was conveniently NOT targeted. Whether the Mafia finds out he is BP on Day 2, he is once again not targeted right? My argument is that if he is Mafia he has a convenient alibi for not being targeted while everyone else in those top slots except Caller was - namely that everyone knew he was BP hence Mafia wouldn't hit him. But "no one" knew until I allegedly revealed his role. So for a full 2 game days he was not once popped. Why wasn't the nuke redirected towards him? Flamewheel as Chuiu Jack already claimed to use his Vet powers Night 1 to save himself. Why wouldn't the mafia nuke the bulletproof townie and just kill FW Night 2? lol? On May 23 2011 04:55 Caller wrote: And Radfield, even though I'd love to say you're clear because of your bulletproof, that shit ain't gonna fly if you the godfather. If I were the godfather I'd pick bulletproof. Know why? Because I'll never get hit. Who would toss a night hit on a bulletproof? Agreed. I've never said I should be cleared because I took Bulletproof. I'm simply saying that me being bulletproof certainly does not make me scummy. If I was godfather, I probably would have taken bulletproof as it fits my persona. That being said, unless you think me and decon are scumbuddies, and felt it worth the risk to make an unnecessary claim(anyone lower on the list could have outted us both), then you have to assume I actually AM Bulletproof. And If Ace had not outted my role, then I still would have been vulnerable to townie nightkills anyways. Unless you think Ace is in on the plot. Anyways,me being Bulletproof doesn't clear me outright, but it is neutral at worst. _________ Looking at tomorrow, I think it likely that we will see the kinglynch directed in an anti-town way from a mafia player on the ropes, killing off a pro-town player. If it doesn't happen, we need to agree on who we are lynching NOW, before anyone can make an excuse. So we actually have two players to kill tomorrow, the kinglynch, and the regular lynch. I would say Ace should be kept for the regular lynch, as it will be interesting to see who comes down where on his vote. I'm not sure who the kinglynch should be, but a good starting place is going back through tnkted posts(once he flips). __________ I actually doubt we have any medics, but in the interest of being thorough: Protection should be given to GMarshal, with some for Fishball(good player, pro-town). Meapak probably has a hatter role so will not get hit. Bum probably has a defensive role. Chaoser should be left for the mafia to clear up. Radfield cannot be nightkilled No one else should be given protection. Agreement/Disagreement? | ||
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On May 23 2011 20:09 kitaman27 wrote: Should we even be discussing alignment checks with the potential Framer and Godframer in play? I would rather trust the detectives to do what they think best and keep mafia in the dark. I'm also surprised more people aren't pushing Caller to role claim. Yes, Caller should role claim, then our role-cop can confirm his role tonight. If he is lying, poof. If he tells us his role now, and takes a hit because of it, so be it, our list is clear. I also agree that we should not be directing anyone's alignment checks. Those should be left solely up to the cops themselves. What is your role Caller. | ||
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A possibility is that Foolishness is the Recruiting Mason and had already spoken with Chez before. Which would make his actions more reasonable. | ||
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Really what we should be doing is going through and actually analyzing your play, as opposed to just taking the Police Radio as gospel. But I don't really have the time right now, nor the inclination, given that I don't think I could sway the town vote even if I went through your posts and thought you were super-town. As it is, I have you just above scummy on my list, so you flipping red wouldn't surprise me at all. | ||
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Tnkted, I read through the posts you compiled, and I stand approximately where I did before. If scummy was 1 and confirmed townie 5, you're still a 2. You wouldn't be on my shortlist, but you're definitely down there. As such, I think trusting our dt check is the best bet here. The lack of discussion makes me uncomfortable, but anyone trying to defend you would just attract unwanted attention to themselves. | ||
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Eiii, is Kitaman or Kurumi the scum? Kitaman, is Eiii or Kurumi the scum? Kurumi, is Kitaman or Eiii the scum? Foolishness, lets say that GM's Incog vote-list is accurate. Which out of Bum, Chaoser or Ace do you think is the mafia? | ||
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On May 24 2011 07:52 kitaman27 wrote: Indeed. Fantastic, if he wasn't just suicide bombed for visiting IS. :/ Wait... there's no way. Suicide Bomber Has the ability to suicide into a person killing them regardless of whether or not they are a Veteran or protected by a Paramedic. Anyone who targeted the person bombed that night with an action dies. Only the Martyr or bodyguard can stop a suicide bomber. | ||
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On May 24 2011 08:03 Mr. Wiggles wrote: He could be Ackbar as well. I don't think it will kill the parity cop though, just the kingmaker. Cycle resets in the morning right? You're right.... He's probably Akbar. The interpretation of 'cycle' could mean the most recent day and night, in which case he would get our parity cop and kingmaker. It could also mean Day/Night 1, Day/Night 2, Day/Night 3, which would be nice. | ||
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Assuming Kurumi flips red, there are a few interesting tidbits about his posts. First, he attacks decon, barundar, Incog, and Chaoser(multiple times for chaoser). Looking back, there are a ton of scum tells in Kurumi's posting, but it's hard to read and sift his posts(no offence intended Kurumi). He also lumps Eiii in with Chaoser several times, particularly when referring to giving them more time due to IRL issues. If you read his posts about Chaoser, I would say it goes a long way towards clearing him. Judge for yourselves though. Frankly, after reading through his history, I was thinking Eiii might be scummy, as he gets glossed over a couple times. However, your claim IS means that if Eiii is scum, he has to be a godfather. A good tidbit to know at least. | ||
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On May 24 2011 08:23 kitaman27 wrote: Err trick question? Looks like Kurumi the Akbar. Of course, no need to scum hunt tonight! Lets save it for another time. Yeah, I really didn't understand Kurumi's post, and kinda just ignored it as a joke. I hadn't considered the Akbar role. Honestly, I think I skim read every one of Kurumi's posts this game On the bright side Kitaman, you just keep getting greener in my eyes | ||
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On May 24 2011 08:33 Ace wrote: It's about time WrongField stopped being lazy and did some actual work. As opposed to all the heavy lifting and 'rightness' that you've been doing this game. It's funny Ace, I've never actually wished I had a killing role before, but I'm beginning to see the allure. | ||
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On May 24 2011 16:17 bumatlarge wrote: OK I'm putting all the votechecks we have gathered, and updating who is dead. I won't take framing immediately into the picture. I'd rather have everything sorted, and then ask who makes sense to be framed or covered? + Show Spoiler + Day1 KAVDRAGON (6): Caller, Incognito, Chezinu, GMarshal, Node, flamewheel[/blue 2 are scum. INCOGNITO (5): Ace, infinitestory, Foolishness, Chaoser, Barundar 1 is scum. Radfield, bumatlarge, dreamflower, kitaman27, [blue]KillerSOS, deconduo, Fishball, Kurumi, Eiii, Mr. Wiggles, Scamp, [black]OriginalName[/black], Kavdragon, tnkted 3 are scum. Day2 KILLERSOS (10): flamewheel, meapak, kurumi, deconduo, radfield, eiii, incognito, mr. wiggles, tnkted, kitaman 2 are scum. infinitestory, killersos, ace, foolishness, chezinu, bumatlarge, caller, chaoser, gmarshal, barundar, node, Fishball 4 are scum. Shortening the lists, since no framing or covering role has been revealed, aside from barundar. day1 list CHECKED Caller, GMarshal 1 is scum. (Caller has to be scum, unless he was framed, or GM is scum) CHECKED Ace, Foolishness, Chaoser 1 is scum NOT CHECKED Radfield, bumatlarge, meapak, kitaman27, deconduo, Eiii, Mr. Wiggles 1 is scum (Eiii was confirmed town by infinite) day2 list CHECKED meapak, deconduo, radfield, eiii, mr. wiggles, kitaman 0 are scum. (eii again confirmed, exactly the same as the above list, so I have to be scum! thats what ace meant...) NOT CHECKED ace, foolishness, bumatlarge, caller, chaoser, gmarshal, 3 are scum. (So this list is essentially the same as day 1, except I am added, and so is the scum count.) So now I see what ace was saying lol. Well unless I am the mole, and ver forgot to send me a pm yesterday, one of the lists was definitely tampered with. Do not shoot me please, and it would be useless to check me, unless you believe chaoser and I are both scum. Presumably if the other GF uses his power and wants to keep the factor that I might be scum in the equation. Chaoser checked me and I came back town along with a role night 1. I don't see why he would have done this as scum, because he could have easily not said anything, or lie. Since I am town, I can reasonably assume chaoser is town as well. I can't really comment on this myself too much, but I believe I have pushed chaoser from the beginning of the game. Either I was trying to bus him the entire game, or I was wrong. Please take that into consideration tomorrow. I don't really how more to say other then the obvious. If we mislynch tomorrow, I believe I can add to the information pile to help prevent that. Along with that, we have GM and chaoser's rolechecks. Chaoser check foolishness please. GM can check me if town would like, or anyone else. If a doctor role is present, I would protect him. Along with that, we have two other miscellaneous checks, along with Ace's rolecheck. I assume Ace will use his smartly, and give the info quickly. Chaoser please reveal my role for me, so I can at least be certain of you. I think you made a mistake here bum, as you should only be assuming 5 mafia for the list-checks(not 6), since we very likely have a mole count of 1. Anyways, Ace is obviously scum at this point, so if someone wanted to vig him tonight, that would work. Foolishness, you're either mafia as well or playing really bad. Caller, you need to roleclaim. Medics, protect GM and only GM. He is the important target. Mind you, all his checks now have to be taken with a grain of salt given the mole. Bum, given that we may have the XIIGodfather role in the game, we cannot assign dt checks to people. Cops need to go with their instinct. Also, no alignment check is wasted, since there is no such thing as a confirmed town right now(mole). Ver, if a mole was killed before Day 3, would they show up as a 'mole', or as a 'townie'? | ||
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*Attacks chaoser(just like kurumi) *Says Ace is one of his strongest town reads(along with Incog and Myself) 3. Ace - Ace is really hard to read because he plays such a good scumgame; he completely dominated us in sleeper cell. However this game he's been much less insulting and assertive than he was last time; the difference in behavior leads me to believe that he's town. *Attacks Foolishness twice *Asks Mr. Wiggles to Kill either Caller or Flamewheel with his kinglynch * Defends Ace Again: That being said, I'm not sold on an ace lynch... Incog just posted a big ol' wall of text talking about how ace has avoided his pressure, but from my own (limited) experience playing with ace, he doesn't always RESPOND to pressure. Thats part of what makes him so fustrating. *Night 2 scumlist: Chaoser Eiii Foolishness Mr. Wiggles *Throws out this tidbit, which makes me think that maybe they have no framers. Meaning Caller, and one of Ace/Foolishness/Chaoser is scum for sure. I know I'm not going to get townie points for this, but GM is not dead and wasn't even targeted. Therefore mafia must have a reason for leaving GM alive. Why? because they have framing roles, and these vote checking lists are making them laugh their asses off. *His final scumlist, which I mostly agree with, since I think he actually put a few scum on here(Ace and Caller/Foolishness). Kitaman is fairly green at this point though. Kitaman Ace Foolishness Chez Caller Mole: Radfield When I flip blue, yall should lynch these people. ooo, maybe chaoser is on that list... Hmm. * Attacks Bum with his final words (after his lynch has been assured basically) Important Points: A couple of attacks on Chaoser, a couple defenses of Ace, about 5 attacks on Foolishness, asked for wiggles to kill Caller with the kinglynch. Voting Ace tomorrow, I hope everyone else does too. Best part is, I can't even die tonight(I hope) | ||
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Anyone else notice how mafia collided their numbers with 4 or 9? It's exactly what I would have done. They didn't need the high roles, since with my 'no-pick' list they could get what they wanted anyways. Deconduo, are you still playing? Was your master plan to lurk hardcore? Please speak up. | ||
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So if there were 6 original mafia and we can assume they wouldn't double pick numbers, 3 of these are part of the remaining mafia, and Foolishness and bum both can't be scum. GMarshal, Radfield are fairly clear imo, and I know I'm not mafia. Eiii was cleared by IS, but he could be GF. This is a bad assumption I think. We already know that scum collided their numbers at least once. Either Chez/Kurumi, or Chez/Tnkted(we don't know if chez was 4 or 9). Hunting scum based on numbers is an ineffective strategy. I've said it before, but if I had been mafia this game, I would have pushed to either double up or triple up on numbers with scum. Frankly, I think it's the reason there are so many 9's(Chez, Ace and Kurumi all take 9). | ||
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On May 25 2011 00:19 GMarshal wrote: I agree with this. I'd also really like it if a rolecop could verify chaoser's claim. As to all other DT actions, the risk of the framing godfather means we can't direct them. I trust them to do what they must. I'm considering saving my list check tonight and using a rolecheck instead. Thoughts? Well, keep in mind that if we have a XIIGF in the game, he is immune to role and alignment checks, and will just make the other scum look innocent as well. The mole will likely be open to a check, but the mole is likely one of the players who have appeared pro-town so far. Until we kill the gf(if there is one), we can't rely on role checks or alignment checks. Unless they flip scum of course, as I doubt the GF will try to frame someone(and if he does, he leaves all the other scum open to checks). Vigging Caller is fine. I would stick with the list checks, possibly even checking one of the lists you've already checked. That would likely reveal if we have a gf around, as his scum buddy will probably get innocented tonight. IE: if you check the Incog vote list again, and we show up with 0 mafia, then we know that one of those players was covered. If it comes up with 1 mafia, then we know all investigations directed at those players are likely legit(as no one was covered). Again, the mole screws with this a bit, but that can't be avoided(mole is really hard to deal with ) | ||
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On May 25 2011 15:00 bumatlarge wrote: Caller Radfield - town GMarshal - town Foolishness bumatlarge - town Chaoser - town Eiii - town meapak - town kitaman27 What I think, the other two scum are among the 3 others. If anyone has information, now is the time! You are playing this wrong Bum. There is only 1 scum out of the three others + 1 mole who could be anyone. A new game started at the beginning of Day 3, and no one is confirmed non-mole unless you're basing it off their post-Day 3 activities and posts. If Caller is vanilla mafia all the list checks make sense, and there is no GF in the game. This seems by far the most likely scenario. I highly doubt that Caller was 'framed' as it would be strange to make him a 'vanilla' mafia(though it does make sense that Caller may have gone after Inventor). With Decon dying and flipping vanilla townie, we can confirm that I did indeed take Bulletproof. My alignment may still be in question, but my role is not. If Caller is indeed vanilla mafia then whomever the mole is has a KP role(unless a townie makes a claim on Decon or Wiggles). This means that players with a confirmed non-kp role are not the mole. Players with a semi-confirmed or confirmed role: Radfield - Bulletproof GMarshal - M2DT Chaoser - Modern Detective (will be confirmed after callers flip) Bumatlarge - Bad Santa This means the mole is among these players: Kitaman27 Meapak_Ziphh Eiii Foolishness Caller I think caller is almost certainly the other scum. Please role claim though Caller. If not caller then foolishness is next. GMarshal, what were your role or list check results? Scum team: Ace Tnkted Chezinu Kurumi Caller That looks fairly right. Whomever the role cop is should claim, and should reveal last nights actions. The more roles we can confirm the better the hunt for the mole will go. | ||
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If Caller is innocent, we DO NOT kill Chaoser, since we know we're looking for a godfather. We are fairly confirmed that Chaoser is in fact the modern detective, so he can't be the godfather. The only players left who can be the godfather are Foolishness, Kitaman, Meapak or Eiii, as the rest of the players have confirmed roles. If Caller is the NRA member, than he would have killed the first person to visit him last night, AND shown up as vanilla to a role check. It seems likely that Wiggles would have tried to check Caller and died, leaving Chaoser free to check him and get back the vanilla result. | ||
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Anyways, we'll reassess once Caller is dead. Any chance we can end Day 4 today? | ||
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As far as our plan moving forward, it depends entirely on which way and what Caller flips. If Caller flips green: We still have to find the last OG Mafia. We know that either GM is red, or that we have a godfather/framer in play. I think we would all agree that it is really unlikely for GM to have been mafia since the start of the game, so we would look for players with unconfirmed roles in order to find the godfather, this means Eiii, Foolishness, Meapak, Chaoser or Kitaman is the Godfather/framer, since all the other players have confirmed power roles. In addition, if Caller is not the NRA member or a kp role, we know we are looking for a mole/6thmafia with a kp role(given that 2 people died last night and no townie has claimed responsibility). This means that the mole or 6th mafia is once again either Eiii, Foolishness, Meapak, Chaoser or Kitaman. Any player who can prove they have a non-kp role is in the clear. Chaoser might be cleared, but I need to check the time stamps and see if Ace could have found out Bum's role and passed that info on to Chaoser. If Caller flips Vanilla Red: This is the best scenario, as we know there is no godfather and we know that we need to find the missing KP from last night. That clears Eiii(parity cop), and chaoser(who found Caller) and leaves Meapak, Kitaman or Foolishness as the mole, since they do not have confirmed roles. However, GM has rolechecked Foolishness, so he can confirm his role(hopefully non-kp). That would just leave either Meapak or Kitaman as the last remaining mafia/mole. If Caller flips Red NRA Member: This is both the most likely and possibly the most difficult situation assuming we do actually have 1 mole. This leaves us at 7 townies vs 1 mole(or 6th mafia). It also means there is likely no Godfather as all the list checks become accurate. Chaoser(found Caller) and Bum(killed Ace) both become unlikely candidates as the mole, since both have made large pro-town moves post-day 3(bum more so than Chaoser). Every other player in the game could be the mole. However, what I didn't realize until Bum pointed it out is that the mafia have known who the mole is since Day 1, which means we can look for players who have either been not targeted when they should have been or have not been pressed to be lynched by the mafia. A careful combing of the thread should give us some substantial leads considering we have 5 mafia members we can analyse. These are the scenarios as I see them moving forward. I may have made a mistake along the way, so everyone should double check them and point out any inaccuracies or wrong assumptions. | ||
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On May 26 2011 20:08 kitaman27 wrote: I pointed out to the thread that tnkted claimed to be picking the busdriver, which led to his alignment check. I was the first person to call out Caller when everyone else was convinced he was town. I also was one of the few people who tried to push Calller for a role claim. How am I a good mole candidate? GM should use his alignment vote check. Role checks won't be much help at this point. Agreed. Frankly I see you as unlikely to be the mole as your activity and pro-townness has gone quite up since the beginning of Day 3. I think you were targeted for lynching by mafia somewhat during the game as well, but I'll have to go back and check through. Role Checks are still helpful in some scenarios, but useless in others. Depends on Callers alignment and role. | ||
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econ flipped town econ claimed he went for Bulletproof, but got vanilla, therefore, someone above Decon took bulletproof, or Decon lied for a very strange reason. *The only players left alive above Decon are GMarshal, Radfield and Caller. GMarshal is the confirmed M2DT(Police Radio). Therefore either Radfield or Caller are Bulletproof. *Ace(mafia) rolechecked me and came back with Bulletproof, which he then tried to twist as a reason to cast suspicion and doubt on me. Why do you find it so hard to believe I'm bulletproof? Because I didn't claim some other random power role in the thread to try to draw a hit on Night 1? Fact of the matter is, I don't actually need to do anything out of the ordinary to draw hits, this has been shown time and time again, not to mention I actually wanted to play the game past Day 2(which has only happened once before). I can almost guarantee, if ace had not role checked me night 1(which already shows he thought I was a threat), then I would have taken the hit instead of Barundar on night 2. | ||
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Also, I never forced Scamp to claim. I never even addressed a post to Scamp as far as I remember, and I certainly never encouraged him to claim. I gathered that scamp was inventor, and posted in thread(in brackets) that I thought he was the inventor. This has two effects: makes scamp know that I am holding him accountable, and lets medics know who is the likely inventor(mainly to hold him accountable though) If you look back at PYP1(or maybe PYP2?), I did the exact same thing to YOU when I thought you were the compvig. Everytime I wrote Compvig(foolishness) I would put your name in brackets. I never addressed a post to you, or encouraged you to claim, but I let you know that I knew you were the compvig, and that if anyone random died during the night, you were next for lynching. | ||
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As far as lynching tomorrow, that depends entirely on what caller flips. Hunting for the mole is very different from hunting for mafia. I think using your list check on today's lynch is a bad idea. The mole now comes up as being mafia, so we KNOW how many reds will show up on the list. Either 1 or 2, depending on if Caller is red or not. I think you should check one of the old lists, in an attempt to narrow down the mole(assuming caller flips red). Either way though, we have to see Callers flip before we set our plans in stone. | ||
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Or the Barundar Day 1 list: Radfield, Bumatlarge, Meapak, Kitaman I think I like the second list better because Bum is mostly confirmed non-mole at this point, and will probably be targeted by the mafia/mole. That means we can narrow it a bit further right off the bat. Mind you, GM isn't confirmed either, so any list check is somewhat suspect until he is cleared. On that note, it would be best for Chaoser to check GM and any protective roles to protect either Chaoser or GM(heavier emphasis on Chaoser). That leaves Bum on his own, but better that then lose our dt roles. | ||
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Frankly I don't even particularly suspect you as mole right now, but I know it's a possibility and as such should be thought about. Also, I've gone through Ace's posts, and here's a brief synopsis of the important bits regarding players still alive (In chronological order): *Attacks Radfield and Incog repeatedly Day 1/2 *Counter attacks Dreamflower(Meapak) after she calls out Ace efends Chaoser, likens it to the attack on Barundar efends Foolishness efends Chaoser a second time efends Chaoser a third time and instead pushes for KillerSOS as Day 2 lynch *Questions GM's listcheck validity and asks why he is still alive. *Pushes for Caller to Role Claim(which he never does) *Spends 4 or 5 posts pushing me as suspicious for not dying *Claims he has proof that Bum is scum A couple interesting things. First, ace most definitely defended Chaoser when the pressure was getting put on him when we had OriginalName, Chaoser and KillerSOS all on the ropes. Second, I'm not sure how anyone could think I'm the mole(or mafia) after the amount of attacking Ace did at me this game. I'd guess at least two dozen posts by ace are either trying to discredit me, put suspicion on me, or downright calling for me to be lynched. Judge for yourselves, but once Incog dies he pushes very hard to lynch me. | ||
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On May 27 2011 09:28 GMarshal wrote: You are confused about when the mole kicks in. The mole is inducted the dawn of day ( after night 2 ends). Today is day 4, yesterday was day 3, so I would have been informed I was a mole before I made my list check results public. Its irrelevant though, not lying once in no way clears me, however, I am pointing out that it should at least lessen the possibility that I am a mole. Also as far as I know my lists are now retroactive, so it should be able to spot the mole if he voted in the list I am checking. @Eiii, nice to know you checked me night 2, correct? You're absolutely right GM, and it certainly does lessen the chance of you being the mole. | ||
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If he is a 6th mafia member(no mole in the game) then it's pretty much down to foolishness or kitaman, but I doubt thats the case. I think we need to play this as if there is a mole in our midst, as that is the most likely case. List of remaining players, and a case for them either being or not being the mole. Keep in mind that it's possible people have bussed their teammates, but I think we have to assume that mafia would have played for the win. Bumatlarge: Shot Ace, this pretty much clears him from being the mole. It's possible he could have bussed his teammate though, but I really doubt it. An extra kp would have been very nice for the mafia to have. Chaoser: Got a proper read on Caller(vanilla mafia) last night, and pointed him out as scum. Again, it's possible that he might have bussed he teammate, but I think he's telling the truth. I also think that Aces defenses of chaoser were the same as his defense of Barundar, a case of knowing someone is town, and therefore being able to defend them with confidence. I also don't think Ace would telegraph the mole that badly. GMarshal: Revealed a proper list check after he would have become the mole. Radfield: Was attacked repeatedly by Ace and pushed to be lynched. Meapak_Ziphh: Came out firing on Day 3 by pushing for both Ace and Caller to be lynched. Kept up his pressure on Caller, and kept up his posting regularity Foolishness: Attacked a fair bit by Chez, Kurumi and tnkted. Doesn't seemingly alter his playstyle once Day 3 hits. Has played somewhat scummy all game(calling for scum-hunting but not doing it, skim reading the thread, etc). Kitaman: Has a big blowout with Caller and pushes for his role claim. Otherwise seems reasonable in his posting. His activity goes way up once Day 3 hits, and not in a scummy way. Eiii: Has a total of 7 posts once Day 3 hits. None of them are substantial and only a couple are game related in any way(and only 1 is more than 1 line). He is also defended by Kurumi several times during the game when he didn't needed to be defended. Prior to Day 3, despite not having a lot of posts, all his posts were paragraphs, and all addressed game issues. My vote for the mole. ##Vote Eiii I'd like to look through the dead mafia posts again though(and I encourage everyone else to do the same), but this is a good start. | ||
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There are 6 of 19 townies remaining. There are 1 of 6 Mafia remaining. There are ? of ? Moles remaining There are 8 players left in the game, so I really hope that should read "7 of 19 townies remaining". Or are we to infer that there are actually two anti-town players left in the game? I'm just going off the fact that you stated the set-up would be 6 total mafia/moles in the game. | ||
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Night Actions: Medic needs to protect GMarshal. GMarshal should check either the KillerSOS or the Barundar lists. Chaoser should check Foolishness, Kitaman or Eiii. Any remaining Town KP should be directed at Eiii. Eiii and any other role cops should be looking for a potential traitor, so anyone who does not have a confirmed or already checked role. I think this is either Kitaman and Meapak. | ||
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On May 27 2011 13:39 Ver wrote: Also I want to hear everyone's opinion on shorter days and maybe nights. I can end nights as soon as I know I get everyone's actions, and days can be shortened to 24 hours or less if the lynch is unanimous, or something in between. I think unanimous lynches should be shortened to 24 hour days. 24 Hour nights are generally fine as it gives some time to discuss the lynch flip and night actions. | ||
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On May 27 2011 19:08 Radfield wrote: Radfield: Was attacked repeatedly by Ace and pushed to be lynched. Meapak_Ziphh: Came out firing on Day 3 by pushing for both Ace and Caller to be lynched. Kept up his pressure on Caller, and kept up his posting regularity Kitaman: Has a big blowout with Caller and pushes for his role claim. Otherwise seems reasonable in his posting. His activity goes way up once Day 3 hits, and not in a scummy way. Eiii: Has a total of 7 posts once Day 3 hits. None of them are substantial and only a couple are game related in any way(and only 1 is more than 1 line). He is also defended by Kurumi several times during the game when he didn't needed to be defended. Prior to Day 3, despite not having a lot of posts, all his posts were paragraphs, and all addressed game issues. My vote for the mole. ##Vote Eiii I wish you had done the other list GM, as it had both myself and Bum on it, which would have given us a better starting spot. For what it's worth, GM is not 100% cleared , though Bum and Foolishness are. Anyways I think Eiii is the mole. Whomever the mole was, they made a huge blunder not killing GM last night. They simply had to risk the medic and shoot for him, as leaving him alive ends it. #Vote Eiii | ||
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There are two possibilies right now: a) GMarshal is scum. Whether the mole or mafia he is currently lying to us about this most recent list check. b) GMarshal is not scum. Therefore he is telling the truth about his list check and there is a mole in play. One of either Radfield, Kitaman, Eiii or Meapak is the mole. For now I am willing to accept that GM is telling the truth and is not the mole. For those who doubt it, I am 100% positive foolishness and meapak are medics, even though I do not know their roles. Do you mean to say that Foolishness and meapak ARE NOT medics? Otherwise I don't understand how we could have 3 medics. Either way, lets kill Eiii today. If you are actually the medic, we pretty much win, as the mole cannot kill you or another player on the scum list(that would narrow down the list). The mole has to shoot at Foolishness and Bum first night, and has to kill you second night(as you will be protecting whomever is still alive out of those two). At this point I think we win. | ||
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Alive right now: Foolishness Bum GM Radfield Eiii Kitaman Meapak We lynch Eiii, and the mole kills Foolishness: Bum GM Radfield Kitaman Meapak We lynch Meapak Bum GM Radfield Kitaman and now the mole has a problem, he cannot kill Bum, as Bum will be protected by Kitaman, therefore he must shoot either GM or Kitaman, and we lynch whichever player is left This is a foolproof plan, except it relies on an assumption that I am not the mole. I like to think that the way ace pushed to have me lynched clears me of the mole, but you guys can decide that. | ||
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On May 29 2011 04:27 Foolishness wrote: I'm confused, explain to me again why we shouldn't be killing meapak? Why would we kill Meapak? What makes him more likely to be the mole than Eiii or Kitaman? Also, If you have a defensive role, you should claim, so that Kitaman can protect Bum tonight and we are guaranteed victory. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On May 29 2011 04:26 Radfield wrote: The breakdown: Alive right now: Foolishness Bum GM Radfield Eiii Kitaman Meapak We lynch Eiii, and the mole kills Foolishness: Bum GM Radfield Kitaman Meapak We lynch Meapak Bum GM Radfield Kitaman and now the mole has a problem, he cannot kill Bum, as Bum will be protected by Kitaman, therefore he must shoot either GM or Kitaman, and we lynch whichever player is left This is a foolproof plan, except it relies on an assumption that I am not the mole. I like to think that the way ace pushed to have me lynched clears me of the mole, but you guys can decide that. From my perspective, we have won unless you guys decide to lynch me. We also auto-win if you(foolishness) are a defensive role. We also auto-win if the medic protects someone. | ||
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Foolishness is right, it's unlikely that Eiii would have sent in his kill but not his role check. Possible but unlikely. ##Unvote ##Vote GMarshal | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On May 22 2011 15:12 GMarshal wrote: Sorry for the late post guys, I checked the Incognito list. 1 of Ace, infinitestory, Foolishness, Chaoser, Barundar is scum. The rest are townies, or cleverly disguised mafia. My bet is chaoser Take this as a "fuck you" mafia for not killing me. Now I have to substantiate all that stuff I said in what was supposed to be my last post. Oh and ##Vote: Caller The list has spoken. First slip up, an apology. On Day 2, GM posted his list check about 9 hours after the day post. On Day 3, he posted about 3 hours after the day post, and yet apologized for his lateness. Why the apology? It is uncalled for and irrelevant. Let me be clear: THERE IS NO REASON FOR AN APOLOGY. Not a single player had questioned his whereabouts, and other than foolishness post immediately after the day-post, no player had mentioned GM. All I can assume is that he had been delaying making his post(presumably talking to mafia?), and as such felt the need to make an apology. Damning, certainly not, but very strange. + Show Spoiler + On May 27 2011 09:28 GMarshal wrote: You are confused about when the mole kicks in. The mole is inducted the dawn of day ( after night 2 ends). Today is day 4, yesterday was day 3, so I would have been informed I was a mole before I made my list check results public. Its irrelevant though, not lying once in no way clears me, however, I am pointing out that it should at least lessen the possibility that I am a mole. Also as far as I know my lists are now retroactive, so it should be able to spot the mole if he voted in the list I am checking. @Eiii, nice to know you checked me night 2, correct? On May 26 2011 00:27 GMarshal wrote: Mepak, moles were induced yesterday, not today. But you have a point, my past lists are rendered unreliable, and we can only judge actions that took place *after* the end of night 2 to judge people, as any previous town behavior might be due to the insidious nature of the mole. I'm pretty sure that the only clear townie at the moment is bum for having shot Ace, which he would not have done were he mafia. The rest of us must be judged on our behavior over the past day and night. He knows the rule to the moles very well, and points out players inaccuracies when they come up. Again, this is not conclusive by any means, but players tend to know their own roles very well. Now we hit on some truly damning evidence. He twice calls for players to use their night actions on Caller. First the dt, and then any type of vigilante. Again, this is not damning in itself, but must be put in context of the whole picture. + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2011 08:16 GMarshal wrote: ^_^ Can I request he check Caller tonight? If he finds him town he should let us know, so we know there is a framer at play. If he is scum then we can trust our list checks to be mostly reliable, at least at finding scum. If the DT would rather do something else then we probably have no choice but to lynch Caller tomorrow, which I would rather not do, as lynches for information are terrible play. On May 25 2011 00:19 GMarshal wrote: I agree with this. I'd also really like it if a rolecop could verify chaoser's claim. As to all other DT actions, the risk of the framing godfather means we can't direct them. I trust them to do what they must. I'm considering saving my list check tonight and using a rolecheck instead. Thoughts? oops, notice that extra slip-up that I italicized. His first post of Day 3 was voting for Caller. All of a sudden now it's a bad idea to lynch caller 'for information'. Why the flip-flop? At what point did voting for caller go from a killing scum to killing for info. Also these two posts are back to back, but a day and half apart. A symptom of GM's diminished activity since Day 3 perhaps? Discounts the NRA theory. Questions Questions Questions. + Show Spoiler + On May 26 2011 00:09 GMarshal wrote: My guess is last and third word of every sentence, but I haven't gotten anywhere with that. Your NRA theory is interesting, my only concern is that a townie would do better to take methman than NRA member, as the NRA member makes punishes detectives as well as mafia. Should we encourage this person to claim? Or do we want mafia to run afoul of his rifle? Also, why are you discarding the possibility of a mafia vigilante? I think that would be a role mafia would not mind picking up, especially considering the fact that they have a piddling one kp. More Questions: + Show Spoiler + On May 26 2011 10:54 GMarshal wrote: I agree, theres no way for us to find the mole if we don't have activity and such to help us pin down scummy people. So, let me open this to discussion, what list should I be checking with my last listcheck? Should we consider a mass roleclaim now that we are approaching the endgame, or should we hold out on that? Lastly who of the remaining players do you think is most likely to be scum? In the last few pages GM has posted time and time again: Lynch me now, but don't you dare try to lynch me two days from now. ?? Why is he posting this? What is his motivation? Obviously we won't lynch him today to check the lists, we'd vote off the players we thought scummy on the list first, and THEN vote him off at the end if those scummy players flipped green. But he is trying to head this off at the pass. Kitaman was also right about GMs post today. Why did he make excuses for Chaoser dying? What is the townie prerogative to try and rationalize a mafia kill at this stage of the game? You're right though GM, this was slightly brought up by your refusal to accept me as a very sure non-mole. Fact of the matter is, the actions that have gone on this game, all game long, point to me being town aligned+ Show Spoiler + Do any other players actually think that Ace checked me night one to make sure I didn't run afoul of the NRA? Or that he would bother to bring up my role at all in the thread(let alone mention 8 times that I was scummy because of it). Or that Ace softballing me and linking me to incog all game, then trying to lynch me(his mole) in the exact same fashion as Incog was a ploy? Also, what are you doing still alive? You're list checks were a massive asset to town, and the mafia absolutely should have been gunning for you at all costs. It was obvious a medic would protect you(maybe 2 or more defensive roles) so why didn't Kurumi plow into you? And why oh why did the mole not kill you last night! The mole had to know that if you lived to reveal a list check, the game is over and town wins. He HAD to gamble and try to take you out, as you are the real threat, not chaoser. The only possible reason you are still alive in this game, is if you are the mole. | ||
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The mole, GMarshal: | ||
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Day 1: 22 posts Day 2: 14 Posts Other than some double post EBWOP's, there are virtually zero one-liner style posts. Day 3: 8 posts(4 one-liners) Hmm, looking for a player with reduced activity and a changed posting style? Look no further. | ||
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Bum makes a pro-town move = Sure Townie GM makes a pro-town move = Not a sure townie Care to clear this contradiction up for me? | ||
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On May 29 2011 09:08 GMarshal wrote: I agree the mafia should have shot me. I have no idea why they didn't maybe they want to create a wifom scenario, maybe they thought medics would be on me, perhaps the stars weren't alignd. I have no way of knowing, ask Ace after the game is over, I'm sure he'll have an explanation. The rest of your posts are "Accusing" me of asking questions to make people think. That is very damming indeed mr Radfeild. So asking questions and refusing to accept things like giving the mafia a door out make me scum? This case is as strong as the case against Orange (my) by Blue (sandroba) in experimental mafia, meaning not at all. I apologized for being late because it is my habit in games to be around for day/night posts, and I felt like I was robbing the rest of the town of valuable time to discuss said results. Strawman Your case is laughable, lynching for information *is* bad play, I voted caller because there was evidence against him was damning, not for information. Then why the flip flop? You have no case caller, you are upset that I put doubt on your "plan", because for all I know you could be the mole, this overraction to my doubting you makes me suspicious of you. This case is less convincing than caller's case on Kav, and we now know that that was trumped up case. Bring better evidence caller, last time I checked asking questions and trying to avoid falling into mafia traps was town behavior. If I were scum I would have lied day 3 and would now have a larger team, rather than being on my own. You however claimed you would bus your whole team to victory. OMGUS, linking to the Kav lynch, contradiction If you are going to accuse me make your case more convincing than "he is apologetic and asks questions, oh and he is alive" Strawman How bout you respond to the whole post next time. Also, I thought you wanted to be lynched today, you know, to confirm the list and all . Why not just shrug your shoulders and say "fine, lynch me, but go after x, x and x". It was no big deal to lynch you an hour or two ago. Is it a big deal now that I call you out? Another flip-flop? Or is it that now because my accusation is so obviously trumped up you feel the need to stick around and make sure that scummy radfield gets taken down? | ||
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No hard feelings if you decide to go this route, but I want the town to lynch you next after I flip green ^_^ Ouch, another bad scumtell. You flipping green has absolutely zero bearing on whether I'm red or green. The only thing that has bearing on my alignment are my posts and actions. (I actually just read that in Ver's thread today, thanks Ver!). I was wrong about Barundar night 1, but that didn't make me scum, it made me wrong. Thankfully, I don't think I'm wrong about you. All of a sudden because I attacked you I am now more scummy than Eiii or Kitaman, the players you were pushing as likely scum just a moment ago. That might just be the definition of an OMGUS. | ||
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On May 29 2011 09:42 Foolishness wrote: If Eiii is not going to die tonight, he should check Meapak to confirm his claim. I assume this means your down for voting GM? Also, role claims are fairly unimportant right now. We all started as town, so we all have townies roles. No need to lie about them. | ||
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On May 29 2011 09:57 Foolishness wrote: I'm still thinking about it. The way I see it is that meapak is the only one who could be lying about his claim. kitaman should die tonight. So you think Kita and Callers argument was staged? GM is the mole, it's all there to see. | ||
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Plan a) Lynch Kita, then kill foolishness, then lynch eiii, then kill bum. Now all i have to do is outtalk meapak into lynching you, which I can almost assuredly do(I just build a massive case today, why not wait till two days from now). Plan b) Stick my neck out and spotlight myself in an attempt to kill GM, (which would then solidify the list) instead of going after two extremely easy lynch targets in Kita and Eiii. Is this your reasoning for thinking I'm scum, because it's awful. If you flip green(5-10% chance) then I'll happily defend my actions from the wrath of the town tomorrow. But I am about as certain on you flipping red as I get. | ||
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Oh and there was no contradiction with me voting Caller, I had one list with a top suspect and a list that had been narrowed down to one player who had to be scum, I was lynching someone I knew to be mafia and saving my other suspect for later while calling it out in case I died. So why did you directly contradict yourself: "If the DT would rather do something else then we probably have no choice but to lynch Caller tomorrow, which I would rather not do, as lynches for information are terrible play. " This is not " saving your other suspect". You went from opening the day by voting to him, to all of a sudden not really wanting to vote him off, despite the fact that it's YOUR listcheck. Not only that, but you add as an excuse that "lynching for info is a terrible play". Exactly at what point did lynching caller go from being about him being scum, to being about information? | ||
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On May 29 2011 10:30 GMarshal wrote: Yes it is. Fact: there is a list with four players, one is scum 100% its Rad, kita, Eiii and mepak. we have three lynches. One of the people on that list can prove himself to be not scum/force the mafia to shoot him, so we have three people and three lynches. One is guaranteed to be scum. Lynching me leaves us with three people and two lynches. Three is oftentimes greater than two. So lynching me *is* lynching outside the list. Look, I can see you're going to press this, so let's break it down. You come out with a list of 4 names, one of which is scum. However, there is another option, and that is that you are scum, and are lying to us. So that gives us 5 potentially scummy players: Meapak Radfield Eiii Kitaman GMarshal THIS IS THE LIST OF THE POTENTIAL MOLE Any lynches inside this list are valid, as any could be the mole. That is all. | ||
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On May 29 2011 10:28 GMarshal wrote: I *would* rather not lynch for information, but it was necessary we had to prove it one way or another, it is bad play but it was necessary, which is why I wanted a dt check, which we got, which proved him to be red. I don't see the contradiction, something can be bad play by policy and still be necessary I'm going to push that caller post of yours, because it is a dead scum give away. Please answer these two questions: 1) When did lynching Caller become about information, as opposed to us actually thinking he was mafia. 2) Why did you change your opinion from wanting to lynch Caller at the days outset, to not wanting to lynch Caller later in the day. Oh and I'm glad that you point out your encouragement of the DT visiting Caller, the NRA member. | ||
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On May 29 2011 10:39 kitaman27 wrote: Are we sure Foolishness isn't the traitor? -_- Why should I die? I have the ability to extend the game with a save. Honestly, I've thought about it. His play this game has been kinda non-existent and it makes no sense to go after you right now. Keep in mind that GMarshal "checked" his role last night as well. If GM flips red though, and we're still playing, then foolishness is for sure the traitor. For now it's a moot point. Not to sideline the current conversation, but I bet 100$ that foolishness does not have a role that can be confirmed through a night action. Anyways, we get Eiii to check him tonight, and that settles the dispute. | ||
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On May 29 2011 10:50 GMarshal wrote: There is no contradiction, I had a town read on caller, but the information against him was pretty damning, which is why I preferred a DT check him, so that if the information was wrong he could be spared, and my list checks could be proven invalid, sure, I'd rather not lynch players whos posts make me think they are town, but I'll always go with a dt check over my instincts, as they are often wrong, so yes, I was ok with lynching him when he was the only check we had to go on even if there was a possibility of a frame influencing the check, however an opportunity arose that would avoid the lynch if I was wrong, I wanted to seize that, so I did. it became a lynch for information when people said they were doing it to check the veracity of my lists, which is why I made the point that lynching for information is bad. Any other points you would like to bring against me? Do you know why I die night 1 and 2 so often? It's because I put in the time, and check EVERYTHING that people claim: it became a lynch for information when people said they were doing it to check the veracity of my lists, which is why I made the point that lynching for information is bad. Not once, not ONE SINGLE TIME, did anyone bring up lynching caller to "check the veracity of your lists",between the time you so strongly voted Caller, and the time you decided that you would "rather not" lynch him. | ||
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On May 29 2011 10:59 Foolishness wrote: Okay we can kill GM now. Eiii claimed rolecop correct? Correct: Radfield: Bulletproof (confirmed) Bumatlarge: Bad Santa (Confirmed) GMarshal: M2DT(Confirmed) Eiii: Role Cop(Unconfirmed) Kitiman: Medic(Unconfirmed) Meapak: Meth Man(Unconfirmed, but breadcrumbed) Foolishness: Unknown | ||
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On May 29 2011 11:02 GMarshal wrote: oh and I forgot. ##Unvote ##Vote: Radfeild congratulations, you are one of the first people to successfully draw a semi-OMGUS vote from me. Valiant effort scum. I wonder if your efforts will pan out, if the town will be sheep. Or if they will choose to follow me to victory. Its a sad thing that I have no faith in the town abilities to read through my posts if you get me lynched and figure out your plan. If you really want to get people to vote for me than build a case. You're sure right, I mean, you seem pretty sure? So it shouldn't be too hard to go through and find some scummy Day 3 and Day 4 tells. Compare my pre Day 3 posting to my post Day 3 posting. Figure out my motivations for the things I've been saying. Show my contradictions and scum tells! ACTUALLY DO SOME WORK! | ||
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On May 29 2011 11:13 GMarshal wrote: I did I fucking handed the town this game. the only way they can lose now is if they are stupid. You played a great game as mafia, but your desperate attempt to save yourself from the list check proves your scummy nature. I don't have to do work, I've already won. You are just trying to save yourself and buy some chance of winning. I'm not having any of it, even if I die the town has already won, since you had to oust yourself to get your lynch outside of the list of four. gg already, work is superfluous when you have the single most broken ability in the game and ten billion dts, you lost this when kita claimed medic, as you had even me fooled. GG indeed. You played a solid game as town, and you certainly were a large part of us winning. It really sucks that you were the mole and are now on the losing team, but frankly I think you played well. | ||
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Mafia had a bit of bad luck and a few bad moves this game. Having their mole be the M2DT really puts them in a pickle. It's pretty much a worse case scenario. Also, the sheer number of investigative roles really made it difficult for them. Kurumi I think you should have stayed in the shadows. With tnkted caught, and Ace and Caller on the ropes, you were the last hope. I think most players had a somewhat town read on you, so you and GM could have possibly stuck it out. My biggest mistake was not coming down stronger during the Ace/Incog battle. I was very sure Ace was mafia after his attacks against my role, and I was very sure that Incog was town. However, I just couldn't pull the trigger and jump in to sway town. My whole don't lynch Ace till Incog is dead argument was absolute garbage, but I couldn't shake the fact that I didn't want to get burned by you(Incog) again. Killing Incog was a mistake though. His America power was neutralized by tnked so he wasn't a threat in that respect. There was so much suspicion put on him that very few players in the thread were actually listening to him either. I think the Ace/Incog argument could have been dragged out longer for sure. I was quite thrilled to wake up and find him dead, as it meant I could go full bore after Ace. Incog, I did quote your post attacking Ace a couple times in thread, and was prepared to ratchet it up on Ace but Bum beat me to the punch. Fishball, you played really well. The way you came alive after Day 1/2 made you obviously town and your play was very good. Node, the police radio was absolutely brilliant. Best invention you could have made. It netted us a red, confirmed GM and gave us the rose coloured glasses. The whole scum team played very well under difficult circumstances. With no traitor, GM being mole, and a slew of investigative/defensive roles taken, I thought they played really well. Without the list checks we would have had a much more difficult time, though I like to think that we still could have pulled it off. Good game everyone! Super fun as always. | ||
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The town never had a lead on anyone and was actually about to be GG'd until GM's role claim + the Night 2 and 3 shenanigans. Inventor + Copy Cat + Bad Santa + Detectives. Chez was already dead. Tnkted was caught once the bus driver role went public. You outted yourself with your overpressing of my role, even had Bum not shot you, you were up for lynching the next day(or Caller). Caller and Kurumi were fairly well hidden. *The M2DT was huge, yet you didn't take a framing role or a roleblocker or assasin. *There were a massive amount of investigative roles up for grabs, but you didn't take a godfather role *You left GM alive. A tough call, but you should have bombed him. *Kurumi suicided when he was well hidden *You shot Incog, which put mud on yourself and allowed the town to refocus. Shooting Incog also narrowed down the Kavdragon lynch list, virtually outting Caller when he was well hidden. Incog dying was a turning point for the town(though really the police radio was the turning point). Anyways, many of your points are valid though, and we relied heavily on the list-checks(mind you, of course we would, they are very OP), though other than NKVD, the other info roles were largely useless/underused. Town played as good as they needed to in a setup that ended up favoring them, mafia played well in a losing effort though. | ||
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On May 29 2011 23:12 bumatlarge wrote: Why didn't anyone pick assasin!? looked like such a fun role, but I was already set on bad santa. Would have taken that regardless of my alignment. Yeah, assassin combined with Ace's role would have been a huge success for the Mafia. Caller could have easily taken assassin and got away with it. | ||
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Also, fantastic job modding the game. It's always a pleasure having a great host. | ||
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On June 11 2011 09:32 Radfield wrote: I think it's hard when you're actually playing in a game to be able to look back and find the learning points. Each player is naturally biased to his own perception of how things went down, and it really takes an outsider (or a very experienced player) to actually break down what went on in the game, and where the improvement can take place. In PYPI I can see how the game played out, and see some of the mistakes(or good plays) that I and other players made, but I think it's hard to really take concrete lessons away from a game without talking it out with someone. This is absolutely what we need. Perhaps a dedicated thread after each game breaking down the townie play(since this is what we need to improve). Mind you, this is a boatload of work, and would really take someone following the game and willing to make contributions. In PYPI I think town had some real strong points. There was little spam, plenty of townies were contributing their thoughts/ideas that it made it easy to find fairly solid townies, town stayed fairly focused and on task, and didn't get sidetracked. That being said, the sheer volume of list-checks and dt checks meant that very little meaningful scum hunting had to be done. A godfather role or a framing role would have likely had us floundering, instead of cruising to a relatively easy win. To be clear, I completely agree that more discussion is needed at the end of the game to bring out certain talking points, hopefully with constructive criticism for specific players within the game. I enjoy constructive criticism and think it's extremely beneficial. Some of the mistakes I made during this game: * The push for Barundar: I honestly thought this was a good Day 1 lynch, as he fit pretty much all the criteria I was looking for. Where did I go wrong? Obviously after the lynch results came in I quickly deduced that Barundar had to be town, but he easily could have been lynched due to my faulty accusation. * Not backing Incog more: this was just silliness. I had a strong pro-town read, but had too much respect for Incogs play to be able to fully back him. Ace had successfully turned the thread, and I didn't think I could un-turn it. No need for advice here, I know where I failed and how to remedy it. * Failing at convincing the other players GM was the mole. Yes GM was lynched, but I was as sure as I ever get that GM was the mole, yet barely got him lynched. Where did I go wrong in building my case against him? As far as I could tell it was a slam dunk, but none of the other players seemed to be swayed(other than kita, who was swayed possibly for other reasons). I did miss the Chaoser flip-flop(which was key) but the rest of my case was strong in my eyes. Did I argue too much with him, thus burying the key evidence? Did I not defend myself well enough against GM's counter attacks? Why were the other players unconvinced? Anyways, these are the things I think about at the end of games, and think we as a group should be talking about. I'm sure we can all see where we went wrong, but not necessarily how to fix them. On June 11 2011 17:57 Barundar wrote: Really liking the write up Radfield, and I wish we could have more discussion about that game. I think you picked up on my flawed goals. On the one hand I planned on getting killed ASAP to remove my role from the game, and on the other hand I was afraid of a scum copy cat picking up my role if I died early. Because of this my play was a little too general and wishy washy, which should get called out. I still think I did pro town stuff (limit suspect list, call out Caller), but I don't think you where all wrong. I think my problem mainly stemmed from trying too hard for a Day 1 mafia lynch. There is very little separating mafia from town on day 1, as there is very little to contribute. Of course your play was general and your attacks weren't concrete, as there is very little solid evidence to be basing anything on. Anyways, I'm going to keep trying for Day 1 lynches, but I do realize that's not necessarily where my strength lies. Barundar I think your play was strong from Day 2 onward. You were clear on your thoughts and motivations in the thread, and unafraid to post them. It made you very green which is an excellent trait as a townie and eventually drew a hit from the mafia. If I could suggest an improvement it would be about your scum-team lists(of which you made a couple). These generally are not an effective tool in my eyes, because they don't really mean much. In my eyes it's much better to keep your lists of potential suspects to yourself and focus on whichever player or players are most scummy. First because your list will(or should) constantly be changing as the game progresses(I find for myself that when I don't write my suspicions down in thread, I can generally keep a more open mind about a player) and second because posting a big list of suspects allows the mafia to cherry pick from your list. One other piece of constructive criticism that I could offer about your play is to focus less on inactive/lurking players. Many of your suspicions of players in PYPI were based on inactivity in it's various forms, while mafia rarely skirt that inactivity line and instead are around the mid-range activity level. It's fine to put some attention and pressure on inactive players, but in my mind it's more effective to focus your attention/time on the players actually posting. | ||
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