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United States22154 Posts
Well I can understand why people want to lynch incog, we agreed America was anti-town and I can see lynching him on policy. But policy lynches don't give us information, which is why I would much, much rather rely on a vigi shot to do our work for us, and lynch someone else.
Ace, you said you had a gun, can you agree to leave incog alone for the day and shoot him tonight?
On lurkers, I really hope we have people with plenty of guns, because I wholly approve of killing them with extreme prejudice.
Wiggles, could you perhaps use your lynch on one of the inactives to motivate them to be a little bit more active? Its starting to be bothersome.
Also what do people think about a Node lynch, is it a good idea? A bad idea? I agree with caller that we should probably try to resolve the list to its fullest.
@Barundar: I agree that this lynch is going down way too easy, I'm convinced that incog is a mislynch. If reading experimental mafia 1 taught me anything is that any uncontested lynch is likely a mislynch.
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No I won't agree to that. I'd rather trust our votes the way they are right now because we don't know if Scum have a protective role or if a sympathetic townie will save him. Let him be lynched.
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That's exactly why I'm arguing for killing KillerSOS with King.
Apart from the part where I'm certain he is scum, he is a better hit for a vig than one of the most active players in the thread. This way we get a proper vote with regards to incognito, where people actually have to take a stance. Even if it is more work, it is also better information moving forward.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
Well, this didn't turn out to be the day I thought I would be reading. Though it's partly my fault I'd say, as I contributed almost nothing to it. And for that I apologize--I decided to make an impromptu trip to New York to go visit TLHQ, and Asian elders take a while to argue down. As such, expect this to be the only post I make until sometime tomorrow afternoon. I'll try to make it substantial, though I will admit that right now I'm slightly confused. I'm going to address multiple tangents now, and they're not in any specific ordering other than the fact that what is listed first is what came to my head first.
bumatlarge--nice Watcher claim there. Since you claimed, why don't you tell us who you watched? I'm going to assume you didn't watch me, since otherwise you could tell the town who hit me. You also said you were going to find Mafia for us today, and yet you've been absent as well. You haven't made a case on chaoser, and you've just followed up on the Incognito train.
Mr. Wiggles--kill one of the "suspicious" lurkers. My vote for the king lynch will be on KillerSOS. OriginalName is a close second. Since I'm not going to be around after this post, I'm going to place my vote on KillerSOS. In the event that KillerSOS is lynched by our king, I have made arrangements with Ver to switch my vote to OriginalName as my second choice. Though deconduo is lurking, I don't think it's likely that he's Mafia for now, for reasons explained below. Eiii could have been another potential shot, though midterms may be a plausible reason and he plays like this as town as well. Also, I'm glad Mafia chose Kingmaker, since if you're town it's just stupid. If you catch a Kingmaker, kill him. Even if a Politician doesn't act today, that doesn't guarantee that one doesn't exist--there's always a possibility of it happening later.
deconduo--If you're not going to provide a reason as to why I'm the best lynch, then you're going to be summarily ignored. Oh wait, you already have been. Interestingly enough, after filtering and reading your posts in Insane 2 (Town Veteran), XXXVII (Mafia Godfather), and Orgah (Godfather), I think you're town at this present moment--you're just unhappy you didn't get your role (which I think is fishy still). I won't shoot you. Sleep well tonight.
Ace--I was originally going to choose America. Then I got the number one slot. No joy ensued, since that was something I did not want. No, I believe Incognito is correct in his statement that America is the only completely accountable role in the pool. Unfortunately, its drawbacks exist in the fact that "the town" can't control where the nuke is going to be targeted at. Of course, the best a Mafia America could do is effectively suicide somebody important during the day, then soak up a town shot/lynch the following cycle.
Caller--I'm sad you didn't choose a more interesting role. I don't like the unfortunately resigned state of martyr that you're in, since it'd be better to the game as a whole for you to get yourself replaced, not killed. Do I have a Mafia read on you? Not in the slightest. If you are town and killed (sacrificed), then it's a loss. If you are replaced and your replacement oozes green with every post, then it's all rainbows and sunshine. And if your replacement oozes red, then it's a win for the town.
Meapak_Ziphh--we love you too. Hearts all around.
I had more to say but forgot it along the way... I'll be seeing you guys in probably twenty hours. Protect GMarshal. If you can, protect, track, and/or watch me--I'm shooting tonight, and I'm going to hit Mafia.
In case it's missed, I vote to lynch KillerSOS with the king's power.
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On May 21 2011 01:54 Caller wrote:
My friends,
due to a variety of circumstances I've been away from the game. I've seen that we have a nice votelist and I'm curious why we're not using it to get two free kills and potentially secure the rest of the list.
You should always clear the list. Always. That's why I suggest doing the following:
We have Flamewheel (whom I'm pretty sure is town, with his past behavior, with him being shot and all(which I think makes sense given how there was only one death last night)), GMarshal (whom could be a tricky bastard, but I haven't seen his play style enough), Me, Node, Incognito, and Chezinu. Two of us are mafia.
Best thing to do is to kill two people on that list. My commitment timewise has gotten lower than I would've liked, so I volunteer to have myself killed so you guys have more certainty on the rest of those people. Lynch me, or, given the time limit, it might be easier just to have Wiggles shoot me.
Then you can kill Node or Incognito (personally, I suspect Incog more than Node, even with the nuke, as I smell a desperation bus) and we have a situation where we will know 100% if GMarshal is telling the truth or not. I see no reason for him to lie about there being more mafia on the list, so clearly if neither Incog/Node nor Chez is mafia then GMarshal should be killed tonight. If one of them is mafia, though, then you kill the other person. Two mafia easy, and makes whoever's still alive as safe townies. By getting rid of me we remove the uncertainty. Don't worry about losing my role, it's not a big deal to lose.
TLDR: Kill Me, Kill Incog or Node. Might be easier just to have me king shot at this rate of voting, but whichever. Clears up list entirely. If neither Incog nor Chez are mafia, kill GMarshal tonight/tomorrow. Else, kill the other of Incog or Node that hasn't been killed yet. Either way, rest of list becomes clear and should be saturated with medic protection.
And well if anybody is lying about their role you kill em. Lynch All Liars and all. Don't forget.
This is a bad idea. There is a good chance I was framed and the list is bad. Other than that, if you're going to lynch me anyway, might as well wait to try indiscriminately shooting into the list to see if I flip red? (I know I'm not, but its stupid to kill 3 on the list)
On May 21 2011 02:21 Barundar wrote:
Am I the only one annoyed at how full of themselves some of the veterans are? Caller asks to be killed because he doesn't have time to play, when there is a bunch of substitutes ready. Incognito thinks we should kill Ace even though he thinks Ace is town, after Incognito himself is dead. Foolishness and Ace has been gunning for Incognito all game long. And both Caller and Incognito thinks Flamewheel will somehow win for the town after they are dead.
1) We aren't killing people because they are on a list, we kill them because we think they are mafia. Everything else is a stupid waste of town KP.
2) We don't kill Ace just because he annoys Incognito. See above.
3) Veterans aren't going to win the game alone, this is not you vs. the world.
The reason why Ace should be killed is for political reasons. Yes, you try to kill scum. But when townies are obstructing reasonable discussion and blindly pushing their own agenda, you have to get rid of them simply to clear the atmosphere so you can start afresh and see the game through a new lens. In this game, I messed up in the beginning, and had to relook at the game all over again from a different perspective. You can't really force someone to do that, so when it seems like they will drive the town into the ground (yes, Ace holds enough sway in this town that people WILL listen to him), they need to be eliminated. A clear town with one less member is better than a confused and lost town with an extra member. This has nothing to do with Ace annoying me. If it did, I would've nuked Ace instead of Chezinu. Note how in Red Army Mafia (the bang bang one) I didn't eliminate Ace also even though he was being super obnoxious. He was pretty much doing the same thing he's doing now. Not sure if we should have killed him in retrospect, but in this game I'm feeling that Ace is off the right track.
On May 21 2011 03:11 Ace wrote:
Well Chezinu is the obvious Scum for sure. He didn't even attempt to defend himself so that's 1 down.
I still think Incognito is the other Scum. I've already said it but I guess people expect some giant post which I won't do. It's very simple. Incognito has a role that was discussed earlier as a role a townie shouldn't have, and now he says "oh but Scum wouldn't be caught with this role, so it means I have to be town!" - um no. As I've always said Scum will do whatever they think furthers their win condition. If it means picking a role that shows up as Obvious Scum but they can WIFOM you to death and get away with it - they'll always pick it.
Secondly this is just too convenient. Like I said he immediately launched the nuke at Chezinu with barely any discussion about it. No one save dreamflower ever even brought up a case about him and then all of a sudden it's a "pro-town move to nuke Chezinu". Come on people read the thread because this is bad play at it's finest. If he really is pro-town then why didn't he wait for input from anyone else or even discuss the other suspects?
As for this lets lynch chaoser train it's the same thing as the Barundar train from yesterday. Shoddy reasoning and people not reading just going for the random lynch. Where is the analysis that chaoser is Scum?
Translation: "Ok, I admit that Chezinu is scum, but I still think Incognito tried to bus him! Here's why anything Incognito does indicates that he's mafia!" Convenience? No. I could've easily nuked Node or Caller or someone else. Or even Ace (because yes, that would further my win condition). The thing is, I know that the nuke lands simultaneously with the end of the lynch, so its not like nuking a red helps to give me credibility (nobody knows Chez's alignment until its too late to save myself.
GMarshal et al: stop trying to kill Node/Caller right now. There are higher priorities here.
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@GMarshal: If we don't lynch Incognito then who from the remaining players on the list is the second Scum? We have to clear that out first. Does ANYONE else on that list appear Scummier than Incognito? If so, vote for them.
@FW: Needless to say I don't agree on your analysis of what a Mafia America would do.
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Caller, Radfield, Barunder, and Flamewheel look pretty green from my vantage point on page 44
KillerSOS is scummy as hell
I'm torn on Chezinu.
Just wanted to say this so people know I'm paying attention, it'll take me another thirty minutes or so to finish the thread, will decide who to vote for once I'm done.
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On May 21 2011 04:32 Incognito wrote:
The reason why Ace should be killed is for political reasons. Yes, you try to kill scum. But when townies are obstructing reasonable discussion and blindly pushing their own agenda, you have to get rid of them simply to clear the atmosphere so you can start afresh and see the game through a new lens. In this game, I messed up in the beginning, and had to relook at the game all over again from a different perspective. You can't really force someone to do that, so when it seems like they will drive the town into the ground (yes, Ace holds enough sway in this town that people WILL listen to him), they need to be eliminated. A clear town with one less member is better than a confused and lost town with an extra member. This has nothing to do with Ace annoying me. If it did, I would've nuked Ace instead of Chezinu. Note how in Red Army Mafia (the bang bang one) I didn't eliminate Ace also even though he was being super obnoxious. He was pretty much doing the same thing he's doing now. Not sure if we should have killed him in retrospect, but in this game I'm feeling that Ace is off the right track.
wut? From Red Army Mafia
On August 17 2009 09:22 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 08:14 coltrane wrote:
who killed me?
I told yoou since day 1, dont trust ace. What? Ace was one of the biggest contributors to the Town. As the field marshal, the most likely way he could die was by getting lynched, so he did his best to stay on the Town's good side, by contributing against the mafia. No one suspects him, and the fewer mafia there are the smaller the chances all his bodyguards get killed. He never did the town any harm.
Town won that game with my help. You must be confused about what happened.
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On May 21 2011 04:42 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 04:32 Incognito wrote:
The reason why Ace should be killed is for political reasons. Yes, you try to kill scum. But when townies are obstructing reasonable discussion and blindly pushing their own agenda, you have to get rid of them simply to clear the atmosphere so you can start afresh and see the game through a new lens. In this game, I messed up in the beginning, and had to relook at the game all over again from a different perspective. You can't really force someone to do that, so when it seems like they will drive the town into the ground (yes, Ace holds enough sway in this town that people WILL listen to him), they need to be eliminated. A clear town with one less member is better than a confused and lost town with an extra member. This has nothing to do with Ace annoying me. If it did, I would've nuked Ace instead of Chezinu. Note how in Red Army Mafia (the bang bang one) I didn't eliminate Ace also even though he was being super obnoxious. He was pretty much doing the same thing he's doing now. Not sure if we should have killed him in retrospect, but in this game I'm feeling that Ace is off the right track.
wut? From Red Army Mafia Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 09:22 Zato-1 wrote:On August 17 2009 08:14 coltrane wrote:
who killed me?
I told yoou since day 1, dont trust ace. What? Ace was one of the biggest contributors to the Town. As the field marshal, the most likely way he could die was by getting lynched, so he did his best to stay on the Town's good side, by contributing against the mafia. No one suspects him, and the fewer mafia there are the smaller the chances all his bodyguards get killed. He never did the town any harm. Town won that game with my help. You must be confused about what happened.
No the other communist mafia. Where the thread title is in russian. Town lost that game, mostly because of chaos and people were shooting randomly and didn't know what to do. To me you were obviously town, but obnoxious nonetheless.
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You guys are getting side tracked. Town shouldn't vote for either of you unless you are mafia, the point is moot.
Can people give their opinion on this Kings kill already so we can get back to the normal vote? I want to know if KillerSOS dies so I can start pushing for Chaoser :/
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 21 2011 04:34 Ace wrote:
@GMarshal: If we don't lynch Incognito then who from the remaining players on the list is the second Scum? We have to clear that out first. Does ANYONE else on that list appear Scummier than Incognito? If so, vote for them.
I'm not trying to be a dink here, but I don't fully understand why we need to clear the list out. I understand we need to eventually, but why right away, right now? We have the information, so it can wait for us to deal with it until we're ready. Our ultimate goal is to kill the mafia, so if targeting players on the list doesn't get that done the best, then we let it lie for now. No?
No one really has a anti-town read on either Caller or flame, GMarshal seems town aligned, Incog seems town to a large portion, and Node doesn't seem particularly scummy. It seems to me that waiting a night cycle and putting some investigations on those remaining 5 is a prudent course of action.
If mafia want to shoot players off the list, great. Better them than us.
Also, GMarshall, it's a bit ironic that you mention no one is coming to Incogs defense, because actually quite a few players are. Myself, Barundar, yourself, tnkted, dreamflower and maybe a couple others. Mind you, in my mind those are almost mostly 'lock-solid townies'.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 21 2011 05:02 Barundar wrote:
You guys are getting side tracked. Town shouldn't vote for either of you unless you are mafia, the point is moot.
Can people give their opinion on this Kings kill already so we can get back to the normal vote? I want to know if KillerSOS dies so I can start pushing for Chaoser :/
Personally I think KillerSOS is a bit of a waste. Chaoser and Originalname should be dying I think. That being said, any mix of Chaoser + one of the others is a good day I think.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
EBWOP: Also, GMarshall, it's a bit ironic that you mention no one is coming to Incogs defense, because actually quite a few players are. Myself, Barundar, yourself, tnkted, dreamflower and maybe a couple others. Mind you, in my mind those players are mainly made up of 'lock-solid townies'.
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United States22154 Posts
On May 21 2011 05:11 Radfield wrote:
EBWOP: Also, GMarshal, it's a bit ironic that you mention no one is coming to Incogs defense, because actually quite a few players are. Myself, Barundar, yourself, tnkted, dreamflower and maybe a couple others. Mind you, in my mind those players are mainly made up of 'lock-solid townies'.
Maybe I'm just misseeing things then, but I kind of feel like its people piling on incog while a couple of us try to point out that he probably isn't mafia. I might just be outright wrong, I really need to go back and reread the thread, but I don't have time to do so at the moment.
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On May 21 2011 05:07 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 04:34 Ace wrote:
@GMarshal: If we don't lynch Incognito then who from the remaining players on the list is the second Scum? We have to clear that out first. Does ANYONE else on that list appear Scummier than Incognito? If so, vote for them. I'm not trying to be a dink here, but I don't fully understand why we need to clear the list out. I understand we need to eventually, but why right away, right now? We have the information, so it can wait for us to deal with it until we're ready. Our ultimate goal is to kill the mafia, so if targeting players on the list doesn't get that done the best, then we let it lie for now. No? No one really has a anti-town read on either Caller or flame, GMarshal seems town aligned, Incog seems town to a large portion, and Node doesn't seem particularly scummy. It seems to me that waiting a night cycle and putting some investigations on those remaining 5 is a prudent course of action. If mafia want to shoot players off the list, great. Better them than us. Also, GMarshall, it's a bit ironic that you mention no one is coming to Incogs defense, because actually quite a few players are. Myself, Barundar, yourself, tnkted, dreamflower and maybe a couple others. Mind you, in my mind those are almost mostly 'lock-solid townies'.
We clear it out because we know 2 out of 6 are scum. Why would we go another direction when we already know where to look? That makes no sense.
Secondly a "large portion" of town hasn't claimed Incog is innocent, especially looking at the voting thread so that point is false. If you don't have an anti-town read on Caller or flame, believe GMashal and Incog are town, and that Node doesn't seem Scummy then who does that leave?
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On May 21 2011 04:54 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 04:42 Ace wrote:On May 21 2011 04:32 Incognito wrote:
The reason why Ace should be killed is for political reasons. Yes, you try to kill scum. But when townies are obstructing reasonable discussion and blindly pushing their own agenda, you have to get rid of them simply to clear the atmosphere so you can start afresh and see the game through a new lens. In this game, I messed up in the beginning, and had to relook at the game all over again from a different perspective. You can't really force someone to do that, so when it seems like they will drive the town into the ground (yes, Ace holds enough sway in this town that people WILL listen to him), they need to be eliminated. A clear town with one less member is better than a confused and lost town with an extra member. This has nothing to do with Ace annoying me. If it did, I would've nuked Ace instead of Chezinu. Note how in Red Army Mafia (the bang bang one) I didn't eliminate Ace also even though he was being super obnoxious. He was pretty much doing the same thing he's doing now. Not sure if we should have killed him in retrospect, but in this game I'm feeling that Ace is off the right track.
wut? From Red Army Mafia On August 17 2009 09:22 Zato-1 wrote:On August 17 2009 08:14 coltrane wrote:
who killed me?
I told yoou since day 1, dont trust ace. What? Ace was one of the biggest contributors to the Town. As the field marshal, the most likely way he could die was by getting lynched, so he did his best to stay on the Town's good side, by contributing against the mafia. No one suspects him, and the fewer mafia there are the smaller the chances all his bodyguards get killed. He never did the town any harm. Town won that game with my help. You must be confused about what happened. No the other communist mafia. Where the thread title is in russian. Town lost that game, mostly because of chaos and people were shooting randomly and didn't know what to do. To me you were obviously town, but obnoxious nonetheless.
Could You stop derailing the thread with Your Ace&Incognito past games love? I really don't give a damn who played how in the past,just look at my past posts,what would I accomplish with posting like I did in Mafia XXXIX? You'd probably be choosing between me or Chezinu to nuke or I would have been lynched Day1.
The Incognito case is really WIFOM,he might be a townie taking a huge gambit,a bussing mafia or just a trigger happy guy.
I am up for any King-lynching lurkers and I don't care which one You'll pick,any will be fine (thought Eiii might be a bad idea because he is busy irl,so was chaoser who is trying to get into this game hardly enough)
I dislike how Incognito drives attention into him is he covering someone? A person who slipped out? Barundar? Someone totally else?
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Ok so Chez is mafia, almost sure.
I trust the GMarshal claim because his play looks like his normal town meta (although town meta did net us a terrible day one lynch eh Incog)
I'm pretty sure flamewheel is town as well because his claim doesn't make much sense for mafia
This leaves Node, Caller, and Incog.
Caller has done good analysis and voiced suspicions of people I'm suspicious of as well. To me he is the towniest out of these three. Node has made several appearences on different people's scum lists. These accusations are pretty spot on and he sure feels a lot scummier than Caller. Finally we have Incog who I've been all over the place with. When he first started his Kav bandwagon I was sooo sure he was scum mainly because the logic was really bad and the argument was forced. However nuking Chez actually made him seem more protown in my eyes because he's not afraid to bring attention to this group.
Basically here's how things should go down. Chez gets nuked and everyone is happy. Wiggles kills Node. If node flips red we all go and kill incog, if node is red we all kill KillerSOS, the scummiest player by far. Wiggles needs to kill node soon though so we can have enough time to lynch Incog if need be.
I will be voting KillerSOS unless Node flips green.
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I also see Chaoser's name popping up as scum. When these accusations first appeared in the thread they seemed pretty retarded but as time passes and Chaoser fails to appear these suspicions seem more and more appropriate.
I also am suspicious of Eii and Kitaman.
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??
chaoser has been active in the thread.
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EPT
