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No offense ON, different strokes for different folks I guess
Pick Your Power Insane! - Page 5
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Why even sign up?+ Show Spoiler + | ||
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Radfield
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From looking through the thread, Originalname was about option E on the list, after Node, Incog, KillerSOS and Chaoser(in no particular order). How did you end up with ON? | ||
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Radfield
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On May 21 2011 12:14 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I was thinking, GM/Caller/FW were town. From GM's list, I was thinking there was a frame anyways. I personally believe Incog is town, so if there was no frame, then Node would be the scum there. Node claimed inventor, and said this: " If you look towards the beginning of the day, I drop a couple of hints that I have the role." I found this post: So, I figured I'd let him live for now. Worst comes to worst, we do an alignment check/role-check and hold him accountable for all inventions. Now, for ON. His entire play this game, has mostly involved only posting one-liners, and not much else besides calling for killing players with no reasoning. Contrast this to some of his posts from XXXVIII, where he was green: + Show Spoiler + On April 11 2011 07:53 OriginalName wrote: MiG Analysis Postcount 8/863 Total (1 pregame post) Experience Level: Newbie Nothing inherently wrong here: excited states he wants a protown mayor. Still looking protown here, doesnt add anything that his first post doesn't. This first point should be stressed more, who cares if we elect an assassin sure that one is pro town BUT ALL THE REST OF THEM NEED TO KILL POSSIBLY TOWNIE BODYGUARDS TO GET HIM! And there will be crapshoots by the assassins which may hit either alignment but since townies outnumber scum by so much (as is balanced) the chances of them reducing our town count before we lose signifcantly more than we gain by the assassins is a great reason why Protact should not have BGs. Im still not seeing the scuminess here. Adds on how medic protection on Prot would also be another reason to spray and pray and cause more blue sniping for assassins, this leaves reds to kill outspoken townies as well as assassins may handle their blue snipes for them. A wild DrH approaches! MiG ran! Can't Escape! He states his reason for regurgitating information is that he is slow. Im still of the mind that even if he is restating opinions of others at least hes posting SOMETHING. He's sheeping really hard along with town ---> Do note that this is not always a scumtell and while it can be used to base an arguement off of it really doesn't mean anything without other tells along with it. HOWEVER he is also playing the n00b card alot and while it is true I want to see more of this analysis out of him before i truely call him all out scum. His last post is correcting a misspelling of his name. So: Mig is: Sheeping Doesnt want an assassin in a position of power. Wants a Town mayor (Don't we all?) Stressing he is new. I think hes more of a Newbie Sheeping Town than Scum On April 11 2011 08:07 OriginalName wrote: My reason for voting GM is that I want to keep DrH out of office for this exact reason. Its not that hes a bad player or anything it's because hes fucking aggresive! The last thing we need is somebody who is mayor to make a last minute rash decision and lynches town. Especially when our original suspect turns out to be scum. On April 11 2011 09:20 OriginalName wrote: Thanks for being sane Coag ^_^ Also redFF the reason im restating something is because SOME PEOPLE *cough* are not getting the picture Protact and scumhunt his ass off and I wouldnt get an honest shit about most of his opinions, and neither should you. Im merely picking THE ONE CANDIDATE that is actually feasable in my mind. Kav just has too much heat on him to deserve 2 bodyguards at this point. DrH i have my worries towards but in my mind hes still a better choice for a pardoner then an Assassin, do note ASSASSINS ARE NOT TOWN I dont care if he decides that he cant backstab us HES NOT TOWN, he could be fakeclaiming red to try to get into an advantagous position what does that mean HES STILL NOT TOWN! a TOWNIE MAYOR is better than a NON-TOWNIE MAYOR Pleas go back and note the difference between TOWN and NON-TOWN (ie SCUM). Those were all taken from Day 1 as well. Strong opinions, analysis, general usefulness. Now contrast this with Insane 2, where he was 3rd party with me. There, he did a lot of one-line posting with some slightly bigger posts interspersed as well, while generally lurking and trying to hide from the public eye. He's following the same pattern of lurking and spam in this game that he was there. This led me to believe that he was likely Red. I understand why you thought he was scummy. He was scummy. But you never pushed for him at all, or ever brought his name up as a suggestion for your hit. Killer is also scummy, as is chaoser. Many people are arguing that Incog is scummy. However, you decided to kinda hit someone of your own choosing. This isn't super scummy, but surely you see that unless ON flipped red, it throws some suspicion on you. | ||
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Radfield
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Radfield
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On May 21 2011 12:26 bumatlarge wrote: Radfield I see you keep tossing around suspicion, but I think you should give your major suspects at the moment. Dont think you're scum, but I would find it helpful to look at who you suspect at the moment to help my own list. Gladly, though as I admitted earlier, I don't have a long list for scummy players. Rather, I have a list of pro-town players I am almost sure about, which is generally how I play. I'd be happy to elaborate on any players, but I doubt this is really the time for that. Tomorrow after the lynch though. Solid Townies: Meapak_Ziphh/Dreamflower GMarshal Barundar Fishball Radfield  Incognito Very-Likely Town Wiggles Deconduo bumatlarge Kurumi Maybe Town: flamewheel Caller Scummish: Chaoser KillerSOS Node Kitaman27 Foolishness I've been swinging back and forth from prob-town to scummish quite a bit, so I've decided not to think about him for a while. The rest I have reads on in various states. Several I have deliberately left my reads off the list for the moment. Looking at it, I'm stretching my scummy list a touch here with the last two additions. | ||
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Radfield
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On May 21 2011 12:28 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I mentioned it, others did too. That's also why I said, when talking about KillerSOS, "other lurkers". You're right. Fair enough. On May 21 2011 12:33 infinitestory wrote: This is false, by the way. When Incog began building his case on Kavdragon, Caller had already made a couple posts against Kav and voted for Kav. As for Node, I trust his Inventor claim. The breadcrumbing looks pretty solid, especially the post Wiggles pointed out. Whether he's town or not - I'm undecided. But what matters is that now that we know Node is the new Inventor, we know who to hold responsible for the inventions. Inventor is a pretty transparent role, as has been stated many times. Let's get some inventing going once this lynch is done. You're right too. I missed that, but I think my point still holds some validity. That was a whopper of an accusation at Kavdragon when he had multiple other targets to go after. Also, I completely agree about the Inventor. My posts are getting sloppier and sloppier. It's way past my bedtime, but I figured I needed to stay up for this one. | ||
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Radfield
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Also, apologies about Incog. Only way he gets bought is if he's scum. Bed Time. | ||
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Radfield
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To be clear: I will not progress a case against Ace until Incog is dead and his alignment ascertained. First off, while I'd love to keep this to myself, the mafia should be able to deduce my role by now anyways, if they haven't, they're really bad. It also seems like there's some sort of ball of suspicion gathering towards me, so lets have this out. Clear your minds for a minute everyone, throw away any impressions of me, and really just look at the facts I'm presenting here. It's easy to skim read, but I really ask you to consider the following: Consider for a moment, that you are a role cop. Night one, you decide to investigate Radfield. You know he said he was going to take Vote Rigger(in his plan), and you're curious as to if he actually did. Night ends and you get you result back. Radfield did not draft Vote Rigger as he claimed he did, rather he drafted bulletproof. So, knowing this, what is your first thought? Is it: Hmmm, I wonder what possible reason Radfield drafted bulletproof for, he said he was going to draft Vote Rigger, I should post in the thread and put some pressure on him to see if I can discern his true reasons. OR, is your reaction: Oh, of course radfield took bulletproof. Given his history, it makes perfect sense. Obviously I should keep pretty mum about his role, as his role becomes useless if ever outted. For those who do not know my history, you might be confused as to why it would be obvious why I drafted bulletproof. I feel fairly confident in this claim: No other player on TL has been shot as often and as early as me. I have died Night One or Night Two in every single town-aligned game of mafia I have ever played(except one). At least half of those have been night one deaths. I have even been shot on Night Zero. Any player who know my history, would not be suspicious in the least when finding out I drafted bulletproof. Regardless of the fact that bulleproof is a poor role for mafia to have chosen, when there are a number of roles which appear town aligned, but also significantly help mafia. If I was mafia, WHY WOULDN"T I HAVE JUST TAKEN VOTE RIGGER?? It's an awesome role for a mafia to have, and would've give tme a huge amount of power down the stretch. Done with the role. Judge for yourself if Aces response to that information was strange, or if it was my role choice instead which was strange. Say what you want about my actions this game, but they have been transparent. Wondering why I voted a certain way? There's reasoning there, so go look. Wondering about anything I've said? It's been reasoned out and explained. I was wrong about KillerSOS, and frankly I think I was wrong about Barundar on Day 1(though you'll notice I have 180ed on him). Fact of the matter is, I was willing to ignore KillerSOS and let him live after his claim. Read the thread, my thought process was there. BUT, he claimed to have tracked Ace(really bad luck). If he had tracked practically anyone else but the one public visit we already knew took place, then he was in the clear. It really seemed like a bs claim at the time. Blech. Infinitestory, I'd love to hear why you think I'm scummy and I really hope it's not just because Foolishness and Ace have repeated it like 10 times each(effectively casting doubt on the analysis of a player known to have good reads). Is it because I am linked to Incognito in your eyes? Is it because I have been willing to stick my neck out and go to bat for certain players? Is it just a certain feeling you have? | ||
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Radfield
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A) I'm a moron for revealing I'm bulletproof OR B) I must be mafia because no townie would ever reveal they were bulletproof As far as B goes, lets have a show of hands of how many people already deduced my role from the conversation that was had. My role was forced when Ace started softballing me, and revealed the moment I responded. Speaking of Ace softballing me. I just looked through the thread, and EIGHT TIMES he lumps suspicion on me for not taking VR. EIGHT!! Honestly, I really can't imagine any player who knows my history mentioning it even once. I recommend people go back and look at his comments regarding my role, it starts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9333256 Knowing what you know now, do his comments make sense from a pro-town perspective? | ||
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Radfield
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A) I'm a moron for revealing I'm bulletproof OR B) I must be mafia because no townie would ever reveal they were bulletproof As far as B goes, lets have a show of hands of how many people already deduced my role from the conversation that was had. My role was forced when Ace started softballing me, and revealed the moment I responded. Speaking of Ace softballing me. I just looked through the thread, and EIGHT TIMES he lumps suspicion on me for not taking VR. EIGHT!! Honestly, I really can't imagine any player who knows my history mentioning it even once. I recommend people go back and look at his comments regarding my role, it starts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9333256 Knowing what you know now, do his comments make sense from a pro-town perspective? | ||
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Radfield
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On May 21 2011 23:16 kitaman27 wrote: As for Node's inventor item, do we agree that he should provide GMarshal a protective item? If GMarshal ends up dead, then we know to who to lynch, unless anyone sees a flaw in the plan? This is an good plan with one large flaw. Suicide Bomber would kill both GM and Node with one go. Mind you, that would not be the end of the world as it would net us 1 scum, and narrow down the list. Given all the roles in this game, we can't plan around every single one, so I would say a BP vest for GM is a good idea. Ver: If a player was given a BP vest at night, would that protect him from a nightkill on the same night? | ||
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Radfield
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On May 22 2011 02:55 Fishball wrote: The role has also lost a lot of it's usefulness, since he revealed it to the public. I also don't like the fact that he revealed it this early. We're still in Night phase, and a lot of stuff can develop overnight. By all means, I would have pulled that move during the next Day phase, when there is indeed a bandwagon forming on Radfield for the lynch, assuming that he is Town. Absolutely it has, but lets face the facts. You figured it out, Chaoser likely figured it out and probably a bunch of other players. I highly doubt that the mafia were sitting back scratching their heads over my role, not to mention the fact that they probably wouldn't shoot me at this point anyways, since tons of suspicion is getting lumped on me. A bandwagon was forming on me now, so it seemed prudent to reveal for two reasons. First, to try to head off the wagon before it reached critical mass, second to stop any over-eager townies from shooting me. On May 22 2011 02:55 Ace wrote: Yea Radfield has some imaginary thing going on as to me softballing him. The suspicion was warranted but if I really wanted to screw him over I would have just outted his role. Either way it doesn't excuse what has happened the last 2 days. This is not quite true. You outting my role would heap suspicion on you, not on me. That is why you didn't out me, you just cast all sorts of doubt my way. Not to mention hitting me with questions that you knew I couldn't answer without outting myself. Anyways, we have more pressing matters at hand. For what it's worth, here are my thoughts heading into night. If we are dead set on lynching Incog tomorrow, then we shouldn't bother to waste any actions on him tonight. GMarshal should get a bulletproof vest from Node. This opens them up to a suicide bomber, but we risk worse by simply encouraging everyone to protect him. Having node make the vest leaves whatever other protective roles we have open and able to defend other key players. Obviously alignment checks in the list, but with a possible framer/godframer out there it may make sense for DTs to go with their guts. tnkted is a good role check(bus driver) though there are other good targets as well. Protective Roles: Deconduo is for sure town in my eyes. I understand your argument ace(I am difficult to lynch), but it certainly doesnt apply to decon. Meapak_Ziphh is also almost surely town. I had a strong townie feeling on Dreamflower, and Meapak is independantly oozing green as well. Fishball is town partly because he's playing reverse mafia tactics. Coast and don't bother contributing at the beginning of the game, contribute more and more as the game goes on. A few other players are surely or very likely town as well(you can check out my list a few pages back), but I doubt will be particularly juicy for mafia to hit. | ||
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Radfield
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On May 22 2011 07:38 Incognito wrote: Radfield: going ahead and lynching me because lynching Ace would be an "unpopular" move is not very pro-town. If you agree that Ace is mafia, then you have to see what he's trying to do here. He is trying to get massive political support for both our lynches when there really is no evidence. It doesn't make sense to go ahead with lynching me if you see that Ace is mafia. You say that I "obviously need to be lynched, as no case against Ace can progress with all the suspicion on my head". Can you clarify this statement? I don't understand the reasoning as to why Ace is unlynchable until I'm dead. If Ace's behavior indicates that he is mafia, as I've shown, then we should lynch him, period. Our goal is to lynch mafia. You're probably right Incog. But my reasoning is simple though and goes like this: I don't think I can effectively make a case to lynch Ace over you. Too many players in the thread can no longer read your posts with an open mind, and have already decided you're scum. I don't think any effort on my part will sway their mind. It's the price you pay for opening up Day 1 with scummy play(which you did). On the flip side, it's a fairly subtle case that needs to be built against Ace at this point since he hasn't stuck his neck out at all this game and has yet to come down on the wrong side of a lynch. Once you flip town, people who at the moment are not willing to look deeply into Ace's play will be more willing. Mind you, if everything goes wrong in the next cycle, we may actually lose by mislynching you. 6 mafia + 1 traitor vs 7 town. Also, it goes without saying, but if you survive the night, do not use your nuke. It will simply get bussed again. We just have to hope that the politician is not in the game(and it seems it isn't). Also, it's sad to say, but you dying tonight would do wonders for the town. Fortunately the busdriver only has one more bus, so he can't bus you tonight and steal your nuke tomorrow. I'm betting you get bussed tonight onto a solid townie though. | ||
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Fishball, I'm absolutely thrilled you survived the night. Incog, I'm absolutely thrilled you died last night. So, one of Caller or GMarshal is mafia, or Incog was framed. Obviously GMarshal is town, so that gives us a possibility of Caller being mafia. One of Ace, infinitestory, Foolishness, Chaoser is also mafia, though we could be looking at the godframer in here as well, as I think two of these players are mafia. Infestory should get the pass here, as he is very green compared to the other three. Ace, Foolishness, Chaoser. I think 2 of these players are scum. Yes, that assumes that one of the players took the Mafia XII Godfather(the godframer). Ace is certainly scum though, so lets start with him. Frankly it's remotely possible that all three are mafia(the godframer covers on of the others last night) Foolishness, can you please explain your exchange with Chezinu? Why would you passively agree that he was your lover if it wasn't true. I really need to read that exchange a couple more times. Chaoser, if you are town, then please contribute. I propose we currently leave Caller alone(despite the seeming paper trail leading to him) and instead focus on killing Ace. ##Vote Ace | ||
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On May 22 2011 10:51 Chezinu wrote: The Sanity Speaks Out I have an announce I would like to make. I have been pretending to be the traitor the whole game to try and waste the mafia's only attempt at guessing who the traitor is. I started off this game with a lover and I thought to myself, "Why would mafia ever want to be a lover with Chezinu -- that is suicide" So in the beginning, I was thinking maybe my lover is innocent and the mafia were hoping that my lover would accuse me of being mafia. So, I decided to mess with the mafia and with my lover and pretend to be the traitor to see what they would do. . Well, my lover never really accused me in the thread -- maybe they wanted to live themselves. So I went extreme and guess what? Town didn't even accuse me very much nor mafia. So I was thinking maybe they are keeping me around for my destructive behavior. I ended up PMing my lover that I was the traitor before I died by a nuke coming straight after me. AND guess what happened??? I lived!!! So I decided to play along with being a traitor a little longer in hopes that the mafia would waste their guess on me. I think about now they have already used it because my lover has stopped talking to me. Because the mafia will probably protect me again tonight I thought I would reveal my lover in hopes to eliminate both of us. Sadly, I wasn't able to probe out any other mafia members from my lover as I had hoped. Now, as you all been waiting for, my lover is + Show Spoiler + Foolishness I know this is crazy and I don't quite understand the mafia's decision on this either.. but that is how it happened. So hurry up and kill me or foolishness. I might have some explosive secrets to reveal. On May 22 2011 12:21 Foolishness wrote: I honestly don't think is going to save us from dying. On May 22 2011 12:22 Foolishness wrote: Rather, I should say save YOU from dying. On May 22 2011 12:26 Chezinu wrote: That is the point. Mafia will probably protect me night, so I thought I would open up the target a bit to increases the chances of us dying PS: I'm not the traitor wtf? Also, I just noticed people are loading on caller in the voting thread. I'm not necessarily against this, but I would say that we should hit Ace first. I'm willing to be swayed however. | ||
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TLDR; Townies Node Radfield Infinitestory tnkted Bumatlarge Barundar Caller Flamewheel Mr. Wiggles Kurumi Kitaman27 – leaning townie Dreamflower/Meapak – leaning townie, but not too confident Eiii – leaning townie Fishball – leaning townie Mafia [Village Idiot]OriginalName[/Village Idiot] KillerSOS Chaoser Foolishness In Limbo Deconduo Some of my own notes as far as this goes: Fishball, Decon, Meapak are all town. Eiii and Kitaman27 i'm leaning towards scummy. Caller and tnkted I'm not sold on. Other than that, I agree with this list. This means my scum short list is: Eiii Kitaman27 Ace Chaoser Foolishness Also, the mole has popped. I sincerely hope that there is only one mole, as it's really powerful On May 20 2011 18:03 Incognito wrote: Instead of discussing "if I flip red" or "if I flip green", can you at least TRY to analyze what I am? I mean, its not that difficult. If Chezinu is town he should claim his numbers and role. I propose the following. Mr. Wiggles dayvigs me. When I flip town, you lynch Ace. I messed up my day 1 strategy, and it has blown up into this big mess. And while I think Ace is town, he is totally off the right track. While I understand how you think my crazy actions and reckless day 1 play is anti-town, Ace's play is equally as bad. And his ego and thread influence are big enough to drive this town into the ground even if he isn't mafia. Its obvious Ace isn't playing in the best interests of town and is instead blowing up the thread to feed his ego and perpetuate his godlike identity. Hopefully once we're both dead and the dust clears, the atmosphere can be calm enough again that some others such as Foolishness/Flamewheel/Radfield can step it up and actually lead us somewhere. I will be mostly gone tomorrow for a recording session so aside from perhaps a small comment here or there, I won't be saying much from here on out. Final thoughts: Based on yesterday's lynch, it seems really strange that the mafia would stack 2 on Kavdragon, especially since they knew he would flip green, and that it would be the most likely list to be vote checked, given that town now knows that Kavdragon is innocent, and that I am heavily suspected and am also on that list. Upon further reflection, I feel like the vote list has been tampered with (likely), or that GMarshal fabricated it to lead us on a witch hunt (unlikely). Regardless, it shouldn't be accepted as the word of god. Out of the people on the list, the only person I really had suspicions about was Chezinu. Node seems plenty town to me, because his early contributions in the role picking phase were more than just "I don't like GMarshal's plan". While he hasn't been particularly insightful, Node doesn't seem like he's planning his actions. He seems to be reacting to information naturally and spontaneously as it is uncovered, and he seems to at least be thinking about the game dynamics. This generally isn't a mafia trait. Mafia tend to want to act only when they have a plan an they know how their action will affect the course of the game. When there are a lot of unknown variables around, mafia is reluctant to take a position. As Caller said, mafia operate best in an environment where they are acting from a position of certainty while the town is acting from a position of doubt. Node seems to be genuinely wanting to contribute, even when there is almost perfect chaos in the thread, an environment where mafia really doesn't need to do anything. Caller day 1 looks plenty townie. He isn't afraid to make accusations, and generally seems unafraid. It would be nice to see some more conviction from Caller, but for now there doesn't seem to be any pressing reason to suspect him. GMarshal day 1 acts consistently with his XXXVII appearance as town. Immediately gets started on a plan and is intent on contributing. His accusations of KillerSOS and Dreamflower are weak, but don't say much otherwise. His reaction in the voting is more consistent with his town play where the only thing he is really guilty of is that he is easily swayed. But GMarshal does that as town too. Of course, there are many reasons why a mafia GMarshal would want to post a 2/6 vote check list, but I don't see it as a likely outcome. GMarshal really isn't a dominant player in the grand political scheme of things, so volunteering this kind of information seems like little gain, especially if you know that its very likely that Incognito will be lynched. Flamewheel has been taking a nonchalant attitude this game. Seems to have been a good choice. Either way, he thinks logically and doesn’t seem to be afraid of anything. No eye popping content coming from him, but nothing suspicious either, as he provides logical and reasonable data. Overall, the fact that 2/6 mafia showed up on my list is surprising to me. Im going to expect that I was framed or something, but don’t let that stop you from just vigging me today. Barundar pops up to semi-defend Kavdragon (when he FOSes Caller for adding another suspect). A wreckless and unnecessary move given by the fact that Kavdragon was indeed town. Looking over at Radfield’s Barundar analysis again, I have to disagree. Barundar’s post does give an inconclusive opinion of me, but his points about me are legitimate and he does credit me for contributing key ideas. The kicker though, is the last sentence in that post, which is a question. Barundar asks “I guess my question to Foolishness and Ace is, how do you explain his contributions with regards to roles if he is mafia?” This indicates that Barundar isn’t trying to “subtly push the Incog lynch without being responsible for it”, as Radfield claims. Barundar doesn’t post as if he is trying to sway public opinion. The open endedness of his question suggests that rather than attempting to spread doubt, he is legitimately confused and wants to find an explanation to explain the incongruence between my wacky accusations and my other pro-town ideas. Post day 1, Barundar keeps up with showing town-aligned actions. Posts a list of suspects (after the vote, so as not to split the vote further), and posts a reasonable blues list along with opinions and an insight into how the lynch unfolded. Barundar is pretty town here. Radfield has the most elaborate pre-day 1 plan. Although I disagree with a lot of it (including a long list of roles that are unreasonably and irrationally labeled as “anti-town”), this is legitimate contribution. Radfield isn’t afraid of throwing out ideas and tweaking/improving his plan in response to criticism. Radfield not taking the role he assigned himself is not suspicious at all. He even said himself that the top 6 players should outwardly “agree” to follow the plan even if they aren’t. Given that Ace hasn’t come out yelling and screaming that Radfield picked an obviously anti-town role, it’s pretty much a no-brainer that Radfield’s pick makes sense somehow. Ace says that Radfield’s accusation of Barundar makes him suspicious. Even assuming that Barundar is town, this accusation makes no sense. Townies are wrong all the time. The important thing to analyze is not the fact that Radfield accuses a townie, but how he does it. In this case, Radfield’s accusation is coupled with reasonable sounding analysis, and Radfield continues to defend his case after the initial accusation. If Radfield as mafia doesn’t make sense since he could’ve jumped on the Kavdragon train and pinned all the responsibility on me. Radfield’s attack on Barundar doesn’t look like a scum post trying to hide the fact that Radfield is mafia. It just seems like a misguided analysis. Radfield is transparent about his thought process, and consistently shows that he is thinking reasonably and isn’t sticking to hard and fast policies. Infinitestory immediately jumps into the discussion on roles. His reactions to my unexplained voting are excellent. In response to my request that Flamewheel nuke GMarshal and my vote for Kurumi, infinitestory not only questions me, but lists 3 points of why my accusation was ludicrous and shows that he went through GMarshal and Kurumi’s posts and found nothing noteworthily suspicious. Not really something mafia would be naturally inclined to do. On night 1, his official accusation post of me is long. Didn’t read it, but its reasonable. Infinitestory had over 2 days to hop on my bandwagon, but it seems like he was legitimately confused and waiting for an explanation before coming to conclusions. It doesn’t seem like infinitestory is trying to hide anything here. Tnkted has a few reasonable posts in the early game, suggesting that the top 5 spots be protected (not really that original, but ok), as well as a suggestion for inventions. His later post summing up his thoughts about me/Radfield/Ace and his suspects seems reasonable. He’s spontaneous and inquisitive. Nothing suspicious here. Bumatlarge contributes early. A bit late out the gate and copies some stuff from Radfield though. After this, he posts a lurker list and votes one of them, which doesn’t say much, but isn’t a contribution. After this though, he still seems inquisitive and seems to be giving a genuine attempt to figure things out. More contribution from bum would be nice, but at this point no reason to suspect him. Its getting late now and I don’t feel like doing writeups on everyone. Townies Mr. Wiggles Kurumi Kitaman27 – leaning townie Dreamflower – leaning townie, but not too confident Eiii – leaning townie Fishball – leaning townie Mafia OriginalName KillerSOS Chaoser Foolishness In Limbo Deconduo Hmm I only came up with 4 mafia candidates. Well if one of Chezinu/Deconduo make it in then its 5. I’m going to guess there’s 1 mole. Anyway, good luck. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
You are forgetting the godframer. First he is immune to votelist checks, second he can cover one of his buddies. I do agree there is a likely scum on the Barundar train(as mafia would not want to let us get a list of 5 confirmed townies). However, Dream/Meapak is a solid townie, Killer is dead, I'd like to think I'm fairly solidly town, which leaves Bum and Kitaman27. For me, Kitaman is alot scummier than Bum. However, that being said, and I agree we cannot mislynch today, I think we need to lynch Ace. Yes, we have paper trails leading us in certain directions, but by pure scumhunting, Ace is the most mafia player left in the game. I think everyone should read through his posts regarding my alignment after he found out my role, and please read through Incog's post against him as well. Also, I realize I am somewhat biased against Ace at this juncture, so I'm hoping other players can confirm or deny what I'm seeing. + Show Spoiler [Aces condemation of my role] + On May 19 2011 13:23 Ace wrote: We've got a problem here. Radfield according to your breakdown of "strategy" earlier in the game you were supposed to pick up Vote Rigger. But I checked you out last night and you aren't the Vote Rigger. I won't announce the role you have, but it is concerning you didn't follow your own plan. Explain. On May 19 2011 13:30 Ace wrote: ooooooo my now things are getting interesting! Incognito is still going to get lynched, but somebody screwed up. Flamewheel isn't the problem here though. Something is off between Radfield and deconduo. On May 19 2011 13:36 Ace wrote: *nods in agreement* I had to put my gun on hold last night because I talked to myself and said "wait, the unRadfield/Incognito duo would try and pull some slick stuff!" and they did. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADFIELD! WHERE ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? On May 19 2011 13:37 Ace wrote: you're 100% correct ^_^ talk about "telegraphing" huh? lol On May 19 2011 13:43 Ace wrote: Yea. The way they behaved Day 1 they both played "risky" by their own words because imo they felt invincible. Waiting for Radfield to answer why he didn't pick up Vote Rigger. On May 20 2011 01:29 Ace wrote: I know what your role is and thanks for the explanation but I really want to know why you didn't follow your own plan? Secondly don't tell Wiggles who to vote for. On May 20 2011 01:48 Ace wrote: Depends on your definition of anti-town and what the circumstances are. Whether it's anti-town or not isn't the case here and I never commented on anyone's pre-determined "anti-town" lists. The fact that he is high up in the draft order and made a plan that he didn't follow, combined with his sketchy play Day 1 makes this an issue. His answer to my question was pretty bad and I expected something more. On May 20 2011 07:00 Ace wrote: I have my suspicion because of your Day 1 plan. I mean you can't even give me a decent reason for why you didn't follow it? But don't role claim, I could have said what your role is myself. For now we'll drop it. + Show Spoiler [Incognito's attack on Ace] + On May 21 2011 18:44 Incognito wrote: ![[image loading]](http://harsharajgatty.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/cornered-20kitten1.jpg) Ace's guide to playing mafia Ace does not fail to disappoint. This game should be a great example for how to play politics and how to play mafia. Lets look at Dreamflower's points against Ace. First, she points out that Ace is tunneling off of very little information, and isn't looking at other people's suspicious actions. Only a few posts into the game, Ace suddenly comes to the conclusion that I'm mafia because I'm finger pointing, and pushes that point through the thread. Yes, I was finger pointing. But why does this make me mafia? Ace gives no such reason. Instead, he continues to push this idea until it finally becomes the truth. Between day 1 and now, Ace has successfully turned the small point about finger pointing into a mass lynch Incognito movement. This is exactly what mafia wants to do. They want to push bad lynches while inflating the notion that the target is "scummy". Once the target flips town, the accuser merely points to the evidence that the "target was scummy". And they are likely to get away with it, given the fact that they've gotten half the town to believe that "target was scummy". So what has Ace been doing here? He's been pushing a movement to lynch me off of shoddy evidence while hiding behind his "finger pointers are suspicious" shield. Let us examine the point about finger pointing. Is finger pointing inherrently suspicious? It is true that mafia want to lynch townies. It is also true that it is generally bad for town when there are multiple candidates out on the field, each with shoddy reasoning. It is also true that bandwagons formed on shoddy reasoning are anti-town. The crux of the matter is that it is anti-town when townies are lynched on shoddy reasoning. Ideally, the mafia want to push innocent lynches without being linked to the lynch. Mafia want to start a bandwagon on townies without being noticed. Why would town want to finger point? Generally, it is a bad idea to vote without explanation. Yet plenty of townies have done it, some to apply pressure (read: Foolishness in XXXVII for Seraph). Inactives also tend to do this. Is this pro-town behavior? Generally not. Is it an indication that said player is scum? No, townies do this all the time. So in general, while finger pointing isn't a very town-friendly action, it isn't a "scumtell". It is a slightly anti-town action that may be good support for other evidence that someone is mafia, but it should certainly not be the basis for any scum accusation. The second piece of Dreamflower's analysis is critical. She points out that Ace has literally ignored all my real contributions, hasn't criticized any of my actual points, and hasn't said anything definitive about anyone (except me and Radfield, who Dreamflower points out was also accused off of shoddy reasoning - Ace accused him because he started the Barundar lynch, even though we have no evidence of Barundar's town alignment). Note how Ace also doesn’t respond to Dreamflower’s accusation, but simply points out some errors in Dreamflower’s post that aren’t crucial to her argument. If you go back to look at Ace's posts, Dreamflower’s accusations are accurate. Ace ignores all my early game points about the politician/vote rigger combo, town roles, and thesis about how the game is progressing. Now I would perfectly understand if Ace disagreed with my points (people like Radfield certainly did). Yet he didn't do that, he merely ignored my post and throughout the whole entire game has refused to acknowledge the fact that I made some key contributions to the discussion. In the meanwhile though, he attacks me for asking people to reread the thread without specifying anything special. Its clear Ace is reading my posts. Selectively reading, that is. Ace is glad to point out where I'm scummy, yet fails to acknowledge some pretty important contributions I have made. Ace agrees that Kavdragon is suspicious earlier in the day ("something piqued my interest), prods him for a few pages in the thread, and even agrees that Kavdragon is timid, but then turns full circle and attacks me for leading the Kavdragon lynch. This is an excellent example of how mafia play. Ace is really the one who starts the Kavdragon lynch. Yet in public opinion, I am responsible for the lynch. Here's what happened. After Caller and Ace get the ball rolling, I fall for the bait and go on a rampant lynch Kavdragon train. My confidence and thread influence work in the mafia's favor this time and is perfect for Ace, as he can now do a 180 and appear to be "saving" Kavdragon while assigning responsibility for the lynch to me. When Kavdragon pops up town, Ace immediately points out the Kavdragon voters as super suspicious while making himself appear like he tried to stop a town lynch. But what did Ace really do? He accuses Kavdragon of BSing when Kavdragon claims he is "trying to gather information", and tells Kavdragon that he won't live til day 2. Later in the day after I have already started on the lynch Kavdragon train, Ace comes out and agrees that Kavdragon is acting timid, thus throwing more fuel onto the fire. Ace never votes Kavdragon, and toward the end of the day, switches his vote back to me (from Radfield) and states that "suspicious are the votes on KavDragon". Complete 180 from his previous (vicious) attacks that Kavdragon wouldn't live to see day 2 and that he was so timid. Once Kavdragon flips green, Ace trumpets the alarm, cries foul, and pretends like he never had a hand in the Kavdragon lynch. This is an example of perfect execution of scum play. Ace shows a textbook example of how to effectively finger point as mafia. Unlike me on day 1, he actively gives reasons for Kavdragon’s scumminess (the reasons are false scumtells, but they seem convincing as reasons nonetheless). This accusation catches fire, which leads others (Caller and myself) to take notice and agree with them. Once we build cases of our own, Ace then backs out right in time to pin the responsibility on me, using it to add fuel to the anti-Incognito case. As evidenced by the fact that he uses the Kavdragon lynch as a reason to paint me red, Ace clearly did not simply change his mind about the Kavdragon lynch. He intentionally started the lynch and blamed it on someone else. Townies have no reason to start a lynch and then turn around and accuse people on the bandwagon. Ace is hiding the fact that he was a major contributor to the Kavdragon lynch. Continuing on into day 2, Ace pops up and cries foul yet again after checking Radfield. While it is very likely that Ace is a capitalist and truly did check Radfield, his announcement does a brilliant job of adding fuel to the fire and furthering his case against "the unRadfield/Incognito duo", which is a complete fabrication. While it is true that Radfield has defended me, it should be pretty clear that Radfield is actually trying to think things through. In any case, Ace's cries of foul play further cast suspicion on Radfield even though Ace never reveals what Radfield's role is. Ace accuses Radfield for not following his own plan (hardly an indication of mafia), and announces to the world that Radfield "tried to pull some slick stuff", implying that Radfield has shady play without giving details. Ace creates a drama about Radfields role, gives out no details, and uses this to further his anti-Radfield case (at this point Radfield is inexplicably tied to me in his eyes). This effectively furthers mafia goals and places doubt on Radfield without Ace having to lie or show any real analysis. Could this action have been done by a townie? A townie has no reason to make a big fuss about Radfield’s role if it is not an absolute indication of scum. After Radfield says that anyone who knows his role should understand why he did not follow his own plan, Ace accepts this explanation, yet still “wonders” why Radfield didn’t follow his plan. Soon after, Ace drops the issue. From Radfield’s explanation, it seems clear that Ace should’ve already known the answer before asking the question. Which means that the only reason Ace could have asked the question was to cause a commotion and spread doubt about Radfield. Ace makes no conclusions and provides no further insights. His reaction to Radfield’s “its obvious” explanation shows that he wasn’t being inquisitive or trying to figure things out, he is intentionally spreading doubt. The vote list also furthers his case against me. Note however, that none of this evidence singles me out as mafia. He trumpets the "kill people on the vote list" mantra to make people want to focus on killing me instead of trying to go for some other suspects. He accepts the vote list at face value, and frames any attack on non-vote list suspects as irrational and anti-town. However, as I and others have pointed out, there is no real reason why we should have utter faith in the vote list. Ace himself even admits that he believes that the possibility of having a framer/GF is high, yet continues to pressure people to focus on the vote list. By focusing on the vote list, Ace is attempting to get townies to conclude on their own that I am mafia, once again without providing any analysis. Here's how the psychology works: Ace emphasizes that 2/5 on the list are mafia and that it is irrational not to lynch off the list. This causes people to think to themselves, "2/5 are mafia, so who do I think are the most suspicious?" Given Ace's constant pushing that I am mafia, townies are likely to subconsciously come to the conclusion that I am mafia, especially if they don't have the time or the willpower to go back through the thread and do a careful analysis. In essence, Ace's reinforcement of the vote list guides the players to the conclusion that I am mafia without him having to provide analysis. Once I nuke Chezinu, Ace again picks at the weaknesses in my posts while ignoring how my actions run counter to what the mafia would want to do. He claims that I agreed that America was an anti-town role (I did not), that I am going against my day 1 plan (I did not have a day 1 plan), that if Chezinu flips mafia then I am bussing him (no reasoning), and that I am anti-town because I did not discuss the nuking. Yet later he declares that "Chezinu is the obvious scum for sure". Is not discussing the nuking anti-town? Well, by itself, not discussing the nuking can by no means be claimed to be a pro-town action, but it isn't necessarily anti-town either. I had many reasons for not discussing the nuke, including not wanting to be bought by a potential mafia politician. Not discussing the nuke doesn't say anything about my alignment one way or the other. Notice how Ace goes about attacking me here. He tries to pin me on ideas I didn't say, paints America as an anti-town role, and questions how not discussing the nuke is pro-town. What he basically does is picks out errors I make and questions how they are pro-town. Logically, yes, not discussing my nuke is not pro-town (although its not anti-town). Ace uses biased questions and frames them in a way that makes me look guilty, when in fact I am not. He emphasizes things that are easy to paint as anti-town actions, while at the same time ignoring contributions I have made that show I'm pro-town. This is exactly what mafia want to do. But mafia is a game where you cannot judge someone as mafia just by how many sketchy actions they make. Proper analysis considers all of a players actions and analyzes them in the context of “what makes this action an action that only can be made by mafia”. Ace has not considered this, and his case against me is flimsy at best. His points consist of minor “scumtells” such as being on the wrong lynch (twice now), finger pointing, picking America, and nuking without discussion. In conclusion, the evidence shows that Ace is undeniably mafia. His actions perfectly align with a mafia mindset, and he carries out actions that could not be made by a townie. In the Kavdragon lynch, Ace is hiding from the fact that he is a major contributor to the lynch, and with the Radfield day 2 commotion, Ace was intentionally spreading doubt. Ace has effectively planted the "Incognito is finger pointing and thus mafia" idea into people's heads. Once I flip town, he will get off the hook because everyone will believe the "fact" that Incognito was scummy, when in reality, Ace has merely fabricated this entire idea. This reminds me of the movie Inception, which, ironically, features Leonardo DiCaprio. I must applaud him for this cleverly thought out humor. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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