On June 11 2011 09:32 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +Incog wrote: It always seems to me that at the endgame people focus too much on praising/trash talking other players and don't actually take the time to learn from what went on in the game.
I think it's hard when you're actually playing in a game to be able to look back and find the learning points. Each player is naturally biased to his own perception of how things went down, and it really takes an outsider (or a very experienced player) to actually break down what went on in the game, and where the improvement can take place. In PYPI I can see how the game played out, and see some of the mistakes(or good plays) that I and other players made, but I think it's hard to really take concrete lessons away from a game without talking it out with someone.
Show nested quote +Incog wrote: Somehow we need to foster more discussion about guides/analyses/playing as town instead of thinking that these pieces are self-explanatory. In other words, I think people would learn better if there was more feedback in the process. Right now the guides are just paragraphs that people treat as some sort of museum piece instead of an improvement tool.
This is absolutely what we need. Perhaps a dedicated thread after each game breaking down the townie play(since this is what we need to improve). Mind you, this is a boatload of work, and would really take someone following the game and willing to make contributions. In PYPI I think town had some real strong points. There was little spam, plenty of townies were contributing their thoughts/ideas that it made it easy to find fairly solid townies, town stayed fairly focused and on task, and didn't get sidetracked. That being said, the sheer volume of list-checks and dt checks meant that very little meaningful scum hunting had to be done. A godfather role or a framing role would have likely had us floundering, instead of cruising to a relatively easy win.
To be clear, I completely agree that more discussion is needed at the end of the game to bring out certain talking points, hopefully with constructive criticism for specific players within the game. I enjoy constructive criticism and think it's extremely beneficial. Some of the mistakes I made during this game:
* The push for Barundar: I honestly thought this was a good Day 1 lynch, as he fit pretty much all the criteria I was looking for. Where did I go wrong? Obviously after the lynch results came in I quickly deduced that Barundar had to be town, but he easily could have been lynched due to my faulty accusation.
* Not backing Incog more: this was just silliness. I had a strong pro-town read, but had too much respect for Incogs play to be able to fully back him. Ace had successfully turned the thread, and I didn't think I could un-turn it. No need for advice here, I know where I failed and how to remedy it.
* Failing at convincing the other players GM was the mole. Yes GM was lynched, but I was as sure as I ever get that GM was the mole, yet
barely got him lynched. Where did I go wrong in building my case against him? As far as I could tell it was a slam dunk, but none of the other players seemed to be swayed(other than kita, who was swayed possibly for other reasons). I did miss the Chaoser flip-flop(which was key) but the rest of my case was strong in my eyes. Did I argue too much with him, thus burying the key evidence? Did I not defend myself well enough against GM's counter attacks? Why were the other players unconvinced?
Anyways, these are the things I think about at the end of games, and think we as a group should be talking about. I'm sure we can all see where we went wrong, but not necessarily how to fix them.
On June 11 2011 17:57 Barundar wrote:Really liking the write up Radfield, and I wish we could have more discussion about that game.
Show nested quote +The push for Barundar: I honestly thought this was a good Day 1 lynch, as he fit pretty much all the criteria I was looking for. Where did I go wrong? Obviously after the lynch results came in I quickly deduced that Barundar had to be town, but he easily could have been lynched due to my faulty accusation.
I think you picked up on my flawed goals. On the one hand I planned on getting killed ASAP to remove my role from the game, and on the other hand I was afraid of a scum copy cat picking up my role if I died early. Because of this my play was a little too general and wishy washy, which should get called out.
I still think I did pro town stuff (limit suspect list, call out Caller), but I don't think you where all wrong.
EPT
