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On April 10 2011 10:06 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 10 2011 09:54 Jackal58 wrote:On April 10 2011 09:49 Kavdragon wrote:On April 10 2011 09:42 kitaman27 wrote:On April 10 2011 09:39 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
dt check kav n1 You guys agreed on a godfather already? Bravo. Lol, I don't need godfather. I'll just argue my way out of the lynch once someone DT's me as red. :p And sure, if you have a doubt in you mind as to my alignment by N1, then DT me. There's no framer, so I don't have worry about it being wrong. Scum slip???? So soon Kav?  How is that a slip? There is no framer. Well, you might expect a townie to suggest not wasting a DT on them. Scum could be more prone to bluffing in order to gain trust and convince the town to DT someone else, so they feel like not DTing Kav is their own idea instead of his. So I can see why he says "scum slip", even if it's just a night 0 joke.
You forgot option three: Play so obviously town that no one wastes their DT check on you.
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Are the assassins counted as town for the purposes of the town count in the OP?
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Dang. The imagery of Plexa and Ace in an epic dual with a Banhammer sent a shiver down my spine. Awesome man.
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I would also like to announce my campaign for mayor. I didn't write up anything fancy this game for my platform, nor will I copy-past it from a previous game.
I offer the experience that I have gained from previously being mayor.
I offer strong leadership, something that already demonstrated in XXXVI, but I have worked on and further improved on since then.
I offer my skills as an analyst. My analysis in XXXVI was key to the town's victory, and while I have not had the chance to demonstrate it since then, I have been talking with veteran players (Ver, BC, and Foolishness) constantly since then about how I can improve my play, and analysis.
I will be offering my ideas, opinions, and thoughts openly to make my alignment clear to the town.
I offer victory for the town.
Vote for Kav!
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Oh, I guess I should mention my plan for mayorship:
Given that there are a lot of newer people, and given that there is a lot of KP in this game, there are two things I want to accomplish:
One: I want this to be an excellent learning environment for newer players. I plan on spending a good amount of time directing people, and helping accelerate their education, particularly when it comes to analysis.
Two: We cannot rely on a small group of people doing all the work. With a mafia this large, and KP so high, they will be able to snipe the "head" of the town easily. Because of this EVERYONE needs to pull their own weight. I want EVERYONE analyzing. I want to mobilize the whole M sector so that the mafia can never rid this town of analysts.
These goals go hand in hand and will serve the dual purpose of achieving victory for the town, and bringing in our newest members into the fold of mafia. (Welcome all you who are new to TL mafia!)
Oh, and agreed GMarshal. Voting for myself is weird. ##Vote: GMarshal
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Oh man, Protact, you just made my day. That was brilliant, but not quite thought through enough.
The biggest problem, first and foremost, is that other assassins will be gunning for our body guards if you were Mayor/Pardoner. You may have two KP you are willing to lend us, but is it worth it if all the other assassins are going to be attacking townies because of it?
Another problem is that putting you in the position of Pardoner OR mayor would give you information about the bodyguards, something that would be quite valuable to the mafia. Since your win condition is not the same as our, I don't think that it would be wise for us to trust you with that information.
I loved the idea when I first read it, because I was thinking about how the assassins don't have a conflict of interest with the town, so it'd be great to get them working for us, but the problem becomes that we have to pick one of you to work with. That will set all the others against the town, and that counteracts the usefulness in a pretty big way.
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On April 10 2011 13:36 Eiii wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 13:32 chaoser wrote:On April 10 2011 13:28 tnkted wrote:
Hmm... On the other hand this would give mafia incentive to be hunting for assassins as well...
question for the vets: in games with assassins are assassin targets typically reds or greens? ie, do most assassins act like classic red, with lurking and trying to avoid attention, or do they act like classic greens with analysis and debate? In this game they don't care. They just want to kill black. This deal is a win win for both parties technically. He's not red,we get 2 KP and a role check. The loss is that we don't have a leader/analyst in a 100% protected position. Also once his two assassin buddies die off, he gets removed from the game-- and we lose our nice 3-vote mayor (or pardoner).
Just want to point out that Eiii is assuming that there are three assassins. Assassins, if he's assuming the correct number....Well. That'd be interesting, wouldn't it.
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On April 10 2011 21:17 Barundar wrote:
Kavdragon, I feel you need to put more effort into your campaign, you posted a lot during night 0, but seem to have gone more quiet around your own candidacy.
Yes, sorry about that. Regardless of whether or not I win, I'm going to be trying to help everyone get jump started. I'm currently working on a rather large post, but it was interrupted by a sudden realization. I'll reveal later, but it wouldn't make sense to do so now. Hopefully I'll have both done by this afternoon.
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Screw it. I'm still 10 pages behind cause i had a sound gig I was running this morning, but this needs to get out there asap. (Sorry if it ignores stuff that has happened since page 31)
Protactinium is Red.
Dr.H is Red.
First and foremost, don't let anyone fool you into thinking that the mayor is a unimportant role. It's EXTREMELY powerful, and VERY helpful to the town. This is a problem for the scum team, so they need a plan to bring it down quickly. So what do you do? First, you try to get a member into the office. It doesn't matter WHICH spot because they are both told the names of the bodyguards, and it doesn't matter HOW it's done, because the person put into that seat will be a sacrifice. Letting one of 8 members die is an excellent trade if you knock out the mayor, and secure the pardoner's role for it. As a bonus you can knock out most, if not all meaningful discussion the first day.
Now how can this be done? Have one member claim assassin, have another intimidating member bully and be extremely negative of everyone else running for mayor.
My case for Protactinium v1.0
Protactinium has done only one thing so far, and that is announce and defend his Assassin claim Gambit. An interesting, and somewhat appealing plan at first glance, but upon deeper inspection doesn't make sense.
I know that Protact is a VERY skilled scum player. He's a good player all around. This gambit of his is a huge risk, because he doesn't know if town will let him in. If he played it quietly, he'd have a better chance than most.
He says he came up with a new way to try to survive: become pardoner. It makes sense for a little bit, because that spot is protected. But there's a problem: As he has said multiple times, he wants to use this to get into the endgame, where he can throw his last hammer and then be done. It would work if the mayor lived that long, but to quote foolishness, "Mayors have a pretty high mortality rate". He wants to hid behind bodyguards, but look how fast they fell in insane!
Over all, there is SOME validity to the strategy, but not NEARLY enough for someone of Protact's skill level to try it. It's not his level of play. It doesn't make sense.
On the other hand, what if he's Red? It'll become apparent enough pretty quickly, and he'll die. So that makes no sense, right? WRONG. There are 8 players on the scum team, and the mayor is a very powerful role. You can cause TONS of havoc from this position, and if you play it right, you might even be able to survive for a few days and stop a lynch. It doesn't even matter if the lynch was going to kill a townie or mafia, because when you flip, people will see that mafia stopped a lynch, and that person is sure to be lynched again. This saves them a whole day either way.
This is EXACTLY the level of play I would expect out of an excellent scum player. Before you say that Mafia wouldn't sacrifice one of their better players, it's was done before when Protact and BloodyC0bler were playing in XXVIII.
Protactinium is SCUM
He is my currently on my "to-be-lynched" list, and even if you don't agree with my conclusion that he is definitely scum, you cannot deny that there is a strong possibility, and because of this, he should not be voted into office. No question.
My Case for Dr.Helvetica v1.0
I've only played with Dr.H once before, and that was in Salem. It was my first game, and I was subbed in. he played EXTREMELY differently in that game. He was positive, helpful, and gave good insight and ideas freely. This game he has been extremely negative of almost anything suggested. He has used his considerable prowess at being intimidating to bully players, and stomp on very pro-town ideas.
On top of that, he has been posting TONS and been pretty spammy about it too. There's a lot of new players, so what better way to scare them off than to drown them with hundreds of posts?
On April 10 2011 04:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
kavdragon is saying a lot of useless bullshit trying to appear protown and basically his posts are this:
words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words
obviously no mafia would say THIS much "pro-town" stuff that everyone already knows amirite ;o????
i'm not buying it. you did this same thing in pokemafia which i hosted
Stomping on my attempts to help newer players.
On April 10 2011 11:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
so many words gmarshal
so many words
Stomping on Gmarshal's attempt at running for mayor.
On April 10 2011 13:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 13:31 tnkted wrote:
Yeah we better make this clear:
when you vote, vote in both threads. that way we can see who voted for what.
not voting in this thread will be considered a scumtell, so be careful. no its not a scumtell ill vote in the vote thread im not gonna waste my time posting all my votes in here especially since i tend to switch votes a lot this is dumb. there will be a dedicated vote thread. if you want to know who votes for who, you can read that thread. less clutter here = better
Stomping on Tnkted's EXTREMELY PRO TOWN IDEA.
All of this is EXTREMELY ANTI-TOWN no matter how you look at it. Everything he is doing is clearly designed to snuff out new people so that we have tons of inactive players.
Doc H is a good mafia player, and there's no way that this is not being done on purpose. Doc H is mafia, and he's doing a damn good job of both spamming the thread to pieces, shutting down pro-town ideas, and intimidating new players.
These are just a few examples of how he is destroying a pro-town environment in the thread. I think that everyone has seen this for themselves though.
He has almost 100 posts and it's not even half way through day 1! He has contradicted himself multiple times with his mayoral campaign (I'm not going to run --> Mayor is unimportant, and i wish it weren't here --> I can't trust ya'll, I'm going to run).
The reason why he singled me out so early was because I am dedicated to doing exactly the oposite of what he is trying to do. I will not get sucked into an argument with him that will spam the thread. I will not stop posting good advice for newer players. I know it looks scummy. I don't care. It will help newer people, and that's worth it. If I can mobilize the the masses before i die, i die a happy death. I refuse to stand by while he destroies the learning environment I am trying to build up.
DoctorHelvetica is SCUM
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Oh, and I'll add that you will notice (again, at least up till page 32) that Doc H argues against protact a ton, but he never talks to him. Same with protact. Why would two people so opposed not talk to each other? It makes little sense unless they are on the same team. It's hard to talk to people in a serious conversation if they are on your scum team.
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On April 11 2011 06:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
he'd lynch me because i know he's scum
First, no. I'm really, really tempted to lynch you because you are spaming so much, but I know that you CAN be a better player as town, and I won't risk a day one analysis on a player who can be a huge asset to the town.
On April 11 2011 06:55 GMarshal wrote:
Fuck, I had to decide to check the thread before leaving
Kav, I think that your call that Dr.H is scum is flat out wrong, there's no way (in my mind) that the scum team would put out two vets like that day one, especially considering one of them is a really, really influential and powerful player. Still if you get mayor which of them do you think you would lynch?
Tbh I have a town read on Dr.H for his mindless aggression, it reminds me sort of coag, except perhaps more refined.
Yo. read XXVIII. BC and Protactinium were BEASTS for the mafia team, and they raped the town. Both were very active right off the bat.
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On April 11 2011 07:00 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 06:58 OriginalName wrote:
My scum reads:
Pandain - Fakeclaim into lolno sorry not DT
Protact - Assassin or Mafia Kavs arguement against him is solid
My not sure reads:
DrH - Why so aggro bro? Leaning scum
Chaoser - Leaning pro town would be imo a great pardoner
Everyone not listed (Most leaning town to various degrees)
Town Reads:
Kavdragon - This is not his scum style at all
GMarshal
Tnk
great analysis thx 4 contributing
Dr.H. This is what I'm talking about. There's more than one way to tell someone they are being obvious. This is a very negative way of doing it. You are being very hostile towards everyone, and that builds a very hostile environment.
That is NOT what we need when there are new people. Your play is detrimental to the town because it will cause half the town to go inactive, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE RIGHT!
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EBWODP: Also, for one who is constantly nagging me for posting obvious things, you've been posting one liners all game pointing out obvious stuff.
i will say it again. If I were scum, do you think I wouldn't realize that posting general advice is a bad idea? OF COURSE I would! I know that. But I'm town, and i see a need, so I'm filling it. I don't care if helping newer players makes me look scummy. I'll flip town and you'll see that it was simply my mission this game. I want to raise up the next generation of players to be better. I wont to foster their development.
You are are being way to hostile. Tone it down, PLEASE.
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There is a reason why I put up my analysis of Protact first. Dr.H is a good player and it would be unwise to eliminate him so quickly. Same could be said of Protact. But protact actually has a shot at getting into power right now, and that's not good. People need to unvote him, cause there is a good risk that he is red, and that on top of all the other reasons mentioned makes him a bad choice for office.
If elected (yes, I'm still running), i will lynch an inactive still. They are the people we can't analyse, and that is what I will be teaching, pushing and doing.
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As part of my plan to help newer people out, I present the first part of my guide to analysis. I was hoping to post this after i had finished the whole thing, but it would seem that we could use it already.
Over the my past four games, I've had the opporunity to participate with scum teams twice. The experiance of being on a scum team was really helpful in identifying ways of finding scum, because I got to know how scum teams work; the challenges they are faced with, the reasons why scum still act scummy even though they know to avoid it, and so forth. Now that I'm not scum, I'd like to pass these things on. So without further ado, here's my two cents on scum.
#1: Know your enemy:
If you want to figure out how to find scum, you have to see things from their perspective.
When I first started playing mafia, I was confused how a scumtell would ever work. If there was such a thing as a scum tell, why wouldn't mafia just NOT do that thing? I didn't understand why mafia would NOT participate as much as the town, or why they would try to not contribute, while looking like they really are. Then I got on a scum team, and i figured it out: Scum tells are things that are extremely difficult to avoid even when you know about them.
When you are on a scum team, there are two key factors that alter your play: You are on a team, and you know who is scum. These are both things that you cannot avoid. Because of this, scum tells can be built off of them.
Because you are on a team, you will be talking to the other members of your team. This takes away a significant portion of your time, especially if you had team members that were as funny as mine were. Beginner scum players want to look like they are contributing because they are not good at hiding a lack of contribution yet, so they actually try to contribute. Unfortunately they don't have as much time to evaluate what is happening and what is the best plan for town at the moment. Because of this, they fall back on giving general advice, and give no real opinions on the current situation. Better/Veteran scum players actually try to look like they are contributing, but are really good at hiding the fact that they aren't. Activity can be increased to accommodated this, or excuses can be given for not contributing as much, so it can be somewhat unreliable, but it is still a good hint to work off of. (Especially when you are dealing with older players)
The second difference between you and scum is that they know who is scum. Obvious, no? But it has implications that are ridiculously hard to shake. When you are scum, it's really, hard to form opinions on who looks scummy. I don't mean that it's hard to say "Incog looks scummy". I mean that it's hard to actually believe that someone looks/is scum, because you know that they aren't. This is compounded by the fact that you talking to your scum buddies when you otherwise would be going over people's posts trying to figure out who looks scummy.
To recap, the things you are looking for are a lack of contribution, and a lack of clear opinions (especially when it comes to the alignment of someone). What does this look like?
Well, the lack of contribution for new scum players will look like people posting a lot of one liners and other stuff that shows that they are there, but aren't actually contributing new ideas/opinions to the discussion. If there's a player that's just sitting around posting things like "I agree" or making non-committal statements about the situation, there's a large chance they are doing something else. It makes no sense for a townie to be around posting on the thread all day but not spending time to contribute. As players get better, the lack of contribution becomes harder to spot. Some will disguise it with relevant and helpful information. On the surface it looks like they are helping people out, but if the knowledge is common, then what have they helped with? Nothing. I'm not an advanced scum player by any means and I've not played with any, so I can't inform you as well as I'd like in this area, but ask foolishness if you have more questions.
The lack of strong opinions of people is one of my favorite ways to hunt scum, because I know how hard it is to avoid it as scum. It usually manifests itself in contradiction, and will something like this: A player says that Qatol looks really scummy, and then a day later votes Qatol for mayor. When you are scum, you're thinking about what will be beneficial for your team, so you will support a lynch at one point, then forgot that you did, and say something contradictory later. A player says that they have a town read on someone, and then a while later they vote for their lynch without giving a reason for the change of mind. Contradictions like these are awesome when you catch them. Another one: Someone says that the mayor is overrated, and not that powerful, and proceeds to talk about nothing other than the mayor for the next day.
The next section is on analysis and arguing/pushing for your target.
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On April 11 2011 07:29 The_Roist wrote:
Other notes: My mafia.txt is filling up rather fast, you guys are kind of rude but it makes for an interesting game so I don't mind too much. but its maybe not the best first impression on real first timers...
THIS DR.H. THIS is what I was talking about. I don't care if you have a plan. We are already looking at a huge inactives list. Thank god we have a few replacements, but for the love of the TLMafia community, stop being so negative!
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On April 11 2011 07:33 GMarshal wrote:
Kav, are you aware that there is a guide that pretty much covers that?
Also I hate to say this, but that is a major example of a noncontributing post that looks like a fucking huge wall of text imo, because it is actualy irrelevant to the current situation, it in no way helps the newbies choose a mayor or make any major decisions at the moment.
I applaud the effort though, and I agree with the majority of the ideas contained therein
Yeah, but I didn't like the guide, and I wanted to show people that I actually care enough that I'll write up a guide out of my own experiences. This both shows my experience, makes me accountable to my skill level, and helps people.
Anyone can send a link to a guide. Besides, if I point them out of the thread, it's doing nothing to repair the damage that had been done already.
Like I said. I know it looks scummy. I don't care what it looks like if it helps the town. I'm not doing anything that is hurting the town with my plan, unlike Dr.H. Honestly, think about it. We are at 44 pages already.
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On April 11 2011 07:36 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:34 Kavdragon wrote:On April 11 2011 07:29 The_Roist wrote:
Other notes: My mafia.txt is filling up rather fast, you guys are kind of rude but it makes for an interesting game so I don't mind too much. but its maybe not the best first impression on real first timers... THIS DR.H. THIS is what I was talking about. I don't care if you have a plan. We are already looking at a huge inactives list. Thank god we have a few replacements, but for the love of the TLMafia community, stop being so negative! i'll kill your entire fucking family j/k I know that. I think I've done about as much damage as I can at this point so I'll slink into the shadows and try to play cool now. i like to shit it up on day 1 to see how people react so I get a better idea of where everyone really stands. The more unreasonable I get, the more unreasonable the mafia gets, but I think now is a good time to cut the act.
Thanks!
+ Show Spoiler +I retract that if you continue
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My current suspect list is
Protactinium
Chaoser
DrHelevetica
Chaoser gets added because he was sheeping behind some really bad ideas, adding to the flames of arguments that shouldn't have ever started, and acting generally scummy. I have no analysis yet, so it still a lowish level read, but it's still a read.
Oddly enough, GMarshal has not shown himself to be clearly townie to me, and I'm not sure why. It just seems like he could be repeating his townie meta, or it could just be that I'm really used to it being super obvious that he is town. Not a FoS yet, but something that I think is odd.
He usually has plans, and that's strangely missing. You'd think that he'd have them since he's running for mayor. Odd.
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On April 11 2011 07:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:39 Kavdragon wrote:On April 11 2011 07:36 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On April 11 2011 07:34 Kavdragon wrote:On April 11 2011 07:29 The_Roist wrote:
Other notes: My mafia.txt is filling up rather fast, you guys are kind of rude but it makes for an interesting game so I don't mind too much. but its maybe not the best first impression on real first timers... THIS DR.H. THIS is what I was talking about. I don't care if you have a plan. We are already looking at a huge inactives list. Thank god we have a few replacements, but for the love of the TLMafia community, stop being so negative! i'll kill your entire fucking family j/k I know that. I think I've done about as much damage as I can at this point so I'll slink into the shadows and try to play cool now. i like to shit it up on day 1 to see how people react so I get a better idea of where everyone really stands. The more unreasonable I get, the more unreasonable the mafia gets, but I think now is a good time to cut the act. Thanks! + Show Spoiler +I retract that if you continue I still think you're mafia by the way. This is by no means me kowtowing to you, but this aggressive behavior is no longer working in my favor and I'm sure the mafia have already caught on to what I'm trying to do.
So you pressured me all that time, spammed that much, and still didn't get a read on me? W/e. If you're done with the agressive behavior, I'm done yelling at you for it.
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EPT
