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Vatican City State1650 Posts
Wait wait. Are you two seriously arguing that having a public IRC is a good idea? In an IRC, absolutely anyone can take whichever name they may please, and spew nonsense that they won't be ever responsible for thanks to the anonymity. A red can easily take the name of one of the players they know is a townie, and act like an idiot to try to influence any real townies present.
There's a reason why every mafia host strongly discouraged any player from taking a public IRC seriously whenever it popped up:
On October 13 2010 12:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
As a rule going forward: There is to be NO discussion of that irc channel in this thread. It is far too easy to pretend to be someone else and make a fake roleclaim. If you're going to roleclaim or make any serious attempt at discussion, do it in this thread. Because you can not confirm you are who you say you are in a general IRC I seriously recommend you take nothing said in there seriously. It's a nice place to spam, mess about, and NOTHING else.
Relevant game discussion belongs in the game thread. Anyone who pretends to be me in the IRC chat will be modkilled and I will suggest you for a permanent ban from all TL mafia games. That includes smurfing under my name. There will be no exceptions to this rule.
I'm honestly surprised flamewheel is letting this go btw. Amazed.
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Like I said above. Its not that big of a risk. I am not role claiming, its just casual discussion, very much like I do on AIM with a bunch of other players.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
I'm sorry? Strictly speaking, as a moderator I do not see anything objectively wrong with players using IRC. With this being a game with out-of-thread communication, IRC is just another way for players to confer, and there's nothing in the rules prohibiting it. Barring obviously bannable offenses, what players want to do with their out-of-thread communication is up to them. In the same sense that a player has leeway and final judgment over how and when to use PMs, a player has the freedom to choose whether or not to utilize IRC.
To address the issue of pernicious usage of host identity: neither Incognito nor myself would make announcements in IRC, since that's what the thread is for. Furthermore, we would not engage in game-related discussion. As moderators, we are not here to direct the flow of the game; we simply enforce predetermined boundaries and reveal information.
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On January 01 2011 19:11 flamewheel wrote:
I'm sorry? Strictly speaking, as a moderator I do not see anything objectively wrong with players using IRC. With this being a game with out-of-thread communication, IRC is just another way for players to confer, and there's nothing in the rules prohibiting it. Barring obviously bannable offenses, what players want to do with their out-of-thread communication is up to them. In the same sense that a player has leeway and final judgment over how and when to use PMs, a player has the freedom to choose whether or not to utilize IRC.
To address the issue of pernicious usage of host identity: neither Incognito nor myself would make announcements in IRC, since that's what the thread is for. Furthermore, we would not engage in game-related discussion. As moderators, we are not here to direct the flow of the game; we simply enforce predetermined boundaries and reveal information.
This is basically how I feel as well. You can PM with someone, so it stands to reason that you would be allowed to IM with them. If you can IM with them, it isn't that much of a stretch to set up an IM chat room with more than 1 other player. And that is pretty much the same as IRC. Plus IRC has always been acceptable in the past other than DrH's game apparently (no-PM games notwithstanding of course).
Just be careful, people. Leaks are easier on IRC compared to PMs. We have had incidents in the past where the mafia infiltrated the town circle IRC and vice versa or pretended to be someone else and then "accidentally let their role slip."
And no host will ever say anything game-related on IRC because a) that's just asking for abuse (someone pretends to be a host), and b) it isn't fair if only some people get to see the announcement. And I have no problem with enforcing modkills/bans for someone who impersonates a host if the host should request such a punishment.
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Vatican City State1650 Posts
I think you misunderstood me. My point was, DrH allowed the IRC room to continue, but explicitly prohibited any discussion about things said in the IRC within the main mafia thread, recognizing that absolutely nothing can be taken for truth while in any public IRC. I was hoping that flamewheel would do the same, but I guess it's a mod preference. My only remaining concern is, if you allow discussion of anything in the IRC to be shared in the main thread, the IRC chatlog can be so easily falsified and the game will degenerate into whether we can/cannot trust whatever IRC discussion is going on.
Oh btw, re: host impersonation, youngminii (a red) used the DoctorHelvetica chat handle within the public IRC channel that was setup by the townies in Haunted Mafia.
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what is the difference between using IRC logs and using "PM logs?"
PM logs are just as forgeable and people accept them all the time
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I'm in the irc chat. Ofcourse there is going to be mafia in there, but there is no reason to not get more opinions.
On January 01 2011 21:33 annul wrote:
what is the difference between using IRC logs and using "PM logs?"
PM logs are just as forgeable and people accept them all the time
No matter what you are derailing us by discussing it.
Orgolove I would really like to get some opinions from you on tonights lynch?
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7. Mr.Zergling-dumb townie+ Show Spoiler +On December 28 2010 11:39 Mr.Zergling wrote:
My vote has gone to LSB, as his responses to annul's analysis have been weak. However, from HP mafia, LSB seems to always act somewhat scummy (which is why he got lynched last game). Also deconduo's analysis gives some convincing reasons to lynch LSB (for instance: that recommending abstaining from voting is not a pro-town suggestion (also abstaining is against the rules))
Although, no day 1 lynch is ever clear, more of a shot in the dark than anything
(((I love parenthesis))) This post is very unsure to me. First I note it contradicts his first post about lynching inactives, and if he's unsure about LSB, why lynch him already. Very suspicious to me. On December 29 2010 09:24 Mr.Zergling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 08:58 Insanious wrote:On December 29 2010 08:47 bumatlarge wrote:I am curious as to how people are shifting votes around together very smoothly. Im sure RoL gave a relatively similar arguement on seraph and it pittered out. Now insanious points brocket very reasonably and 5 people shift their votes? Im actually itching to see what LSB would pop now... Sorry if you are a vig buddy  Few reasons why. For starters seraph is an active and experienced town player, so losing him as a town sucks. The more experienced players like LSB, seraph, RoL, tree.hugger etc... live longer the better shot town has. Next Brocket is posting vastly different then he did in Pokemafia, which points out different behaviour between his town play and his play now. As well, Brocket is not a strong town voice, meaning between losing Brocket and LSB, Brocket hurts less. Finally, most people have read the case for not lynching LSB now that wasn't there when RoL brough up seraph. Meaning now people are looking for a way to switch off of LSB. There wasn't a good candidate to switch to before brocket. Annul is town Seraph is experience d3 is being voted for by pandrain when no one is really listening to now Then there is Brocket, random inactive who is playing vastly different then he did when he was town. Best choice offered. If there was someone better to vote for I would, and I will be the first to vote LSB come day 3 if he doesn't prove that he is blue. This is a good enough reason for me to change my vote to brocket. Also, on my lurking, I often don't feel the need to post if I fell I do not have anything to contribute to analysis. This is especially compounded by this being the first day. Says he's going to vote people because of what other people said, without giving his own reasons. Furthormore does the guilt scum tell, where he has to explain himself for his lurking. It doesn't prove anything yet, but I'm noting it. On December 29 2010 10:02 Mr.Zergling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 09:41 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On December 29 2010 09:32 Insanious wrote:On December 29 2010 09:26 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Lemme sum up why brocket should be lynched "ZOMFG, he's posting different than in the last game he played!!111!!! He mus be red lynch himmm!!!111!!!... correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this brocket's second game? Isn't it to early to apply metagame? and the reason why we should vote for LSB being "Annul says he is red. HE IS RED!!!! KILL HIM!!!" Is any better? At least Brocket logic is Brocket is playing exactly like the mafia in the mafia game he last played. Is better logic then LSB spammed and is therefore scum... Actually I'm voting LSB becuse I had suspicions of LSB before Annul even started posting, when he came out with his comments and several people agreed with him it validated my concerns. LSB's defense has only cemented my view of him. More concerns I have is that LSB claims a blue and everyone believes him when it's the oldest trick in the book for a mafia about to get lynched. Another thing I don't like is how all of a sudden people are crawling out of the wood work to accuse people who really haven't done anything to bring suspicion on them other than acting like disinterested townies who are disapointed they didn't get a blue or red role. The case against brocket feels like a mafia attempt to pull votes and save LSB. In short, LSB had me suspicious at the start and has only gotten redder as the game has gone on. But, he has offered to prove that he is indeed a blue role by night 2, thus if he can not satisfactorily prove that, he dies. repeats what others has said, doesn't really give anything new. On December 29 2010 10:22 Mr.Zergling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 10:19 Insanious wrote:On December 29 2010 10:16 Barundar wrote:
Sigh what is the point of putting pressure by votes on a player who is clearly afk, this shortly before the day ends? Its not pressure votes, its votes to have LSB not die tonight so he can prove he is a blue later... and we have a possability of hitting a red. Too damn late, goodbye LSB This is especially suspicious. He's acting like he failed him, also that he knows that LSB is blue, but he hasn't been contributing. He says he contributes if he feels he can, and this post indicates that, but why isn't he doing anything. Also note this is two hours before lsb got lynched, and before and after mr. zergling will not contribute more. On December 29 2010 12:10 Mr.Zergling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 12:03 Insanious wrote:
So LSB fliped blue... here is my current game plan:
1) Vote Paindain because of how he acted when we started to vote for someone that wasn't LSB. This to me seems like the mafia are trying to get a 5th KP by killing LSB a claimed blue who is active. So Paindain looks like the most like a mafia to me.
2) Ignoring Annul for rest of game. He got tunnel vision towards a blue, who even if he was red we shouldn't of voted for right now, we should of voted for in 2 days. He had a bad gut feeling, and ignored when people put forth good reasoning to not follow that gut feeling. Annul is about 99% likely to be a green. So he shouldn't be voted for... just ignored 99% of the time unless he finds something increadibly useful... not likely to happen after this debacle.
- - - -
Also... told you so... Annul listen to me more... I looked at this logically, you were attacking LSB. You were obviously wrong like 15 pages ago.
Brocket and Paindrain... one of them is Red and I assume its Paindrain. Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 10:48 Pandain wrote:On December 29 2010 10:31 Insanious wrote:On December 29 2010 10:24 Barundar wrote:
I understand you want to save yourself, but Brocket is the worst scapegoat you could possibly find. He is as scummy as Kenpachi when posting, and now he is even afk. Voting him is the same as abstaining, and really gets us nowhere. Between Brocket and LSB, I would much much much rather Brocket dead then LSB... There really isn't another choice now due to time constraints... Annul brought us to this point, a 1 person bandwaggon is pretty much the worst thing that can happen to the town. 0 analysis can be done concerning votes, mafia can hide where ever they want to when voting for a town... You need at least 2 candidates every day for voting or it might as well just be a random.org vote. LSB has a high chance of being a blue, and killing a blue, especially early is terrible.\ Brocket is most likely green or a lurking mafia... and since there have been 4 people comming out of no where to defend Brocket it makes me think Brocket is even more red. I vehemently disagree. FIrst off, LSB doesn't have a high chance of being blue, he's claimed everything from vigi to dt, and his supposed plan which no one knows what possibly could be he refuses to tell. Furthormore now your saying that we're forced to either vote brockett or LSB, and previously you had been saying you were voting him because "he played differently." Plus right now we can find out so much from LSB's flip. I know people usually say not to lynch for information but this is a special scenario. IT's all because LSB has claimed blue, and mafia know that, or that LSB is mafia, and they're trying to swing a bandwagon onto brockett to save him.
If LSB flips red- Great! We caught probably at least 3-4 scum who tried to swing the bandwagon onto Brockett, in addition to information from posting. Furthormore we caught a scum! IF LSB flips blue LSB is not DT, so we don't have to worry about that. Why?
-Claimed very early to be blue, DT wouldn't have done that being most important role. Would've waited.
-Revealed pms where RoL said LSB might be DT, and hinted strongly because it was the only role that could fit the plan. Why would DT be so reckless, especially when he seemingly doesn't want to claim? So we don't have to worry about losing a DT. So when, if blue, he would most vigi, then that's not even that bad of a loss. But most importantly mafia would be wanting him dead, since he's blue, and they know it. So people who voted for LSB should be looked upon with suspicion, myself included. But again I would like to stress people that LSB is 99% not blue, that he is 99% red. And I urge you to read my analysis I made of him, and realize whats happening here. Vote LSB. Stop the Bandwagon. mmm This does have me suspicious of Paindain, but would a mafia really be that overt and outspoken about lynching a blue, or would they try and lay low so they are not associated with the impending mess when the target flips blue? Now though, we can look at all previous analysis in a new light Does a very common tell, saying "oh look, now we can analyze stuff!" without analyzing it themselves. On December 29 2010 15:43 Mr.Zergling wrote:
I am interested in why Pandain went from defending LSB (quite vehemently) to pushing strongly to lynch LSB, I suppose the role claim (which was never really clear) could have affected his view of LSB.
Two scenarios:
Pandain is blue: The unclear roleclaim threw him off and he decided that even though LSB had said he would prove his blueness, Pandain just wanted info (stated)
-or-
Pandain is red: He saw the bandwagon shifting to his possible scumbuddy Brocket, and decided that it wouldn't be too suspicious if he shifted the bandwagon back on to LSB by touting an "info lynch". Also making himself more trustworthy by saying that everyone who voted LSB should be under suspicion (which they should) First I find it interesting that he only said pandain is blue or red. I had breadcrumbed that I Was DT early on(im not though), just to lead mafia off. Maybe they had caught on to that? But regardless of that, the fact he only laid out the two scenarios without commenting on it is very suspicious to me. On December 30 2010 12:56 Mr.Zergling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 07:11 Pandain wrote:
~snip~
Mr-Zergling: Very unsure in his posts, not making any strong opinions. More importantly when he was under the impression day had ended early, he said "sorry LSB, too late." Besides possibly(note that word) showing that he knew LSB was blue, the fact that before hand and after hand he hadn't been helping. Compare that with his previous post saying he only contributes when he feels he can. The only thing saving him is that its semi-consistenent with his previous play in games, but major FoS on him nonetheless.
~snip~
Hard to have strong opinions on day 1. I really am terrible at 12/24hr conversions (said voting ended at 19:00 PST, I converted that in my head to 5:00 PST, fail on my part). I did believe that LSB was blue, as he said he could show it by night 2. First, just because he said that doesn't mean that you should've believed that he was blue, merely been content to wait. On December 30 2010 12:59 Mr.Zergling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 12:58 Node wrote:
For now I'm voting Pandain, as his antics have done little more the cause confusion and split the vote a bajillion different ways. I'll move it pending a more convincing case.
~snip~ ^^This, and what I presented earlier Still not giving his own opinions.Common trend so far. On December 30 2010 15:16 Mr.Zergling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 14:34 Node wrote:
You guys are seriously still having this argument?
At this point, it's irrelevant. The fact that we're still arguing that LSB is scum just makes me think the people dragging it up are suspicious. Insanious, annul, Mepeak arguing just to throw us off? Sounds like a plausible way for reds to be able to deny association if someone gets lynched and flips red. This is distracting us from real scumhunting and making people feel like they need to jump on one bandwagon, thus fracturing the Town, and allowing the mafia to more or less control our lynch  Again suspicious, saying "we need to be scum hunting" but not scum hunting at all. On December 31 2010 05:08 Mr.Zergling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 05:03 Barundar wrote:
Mr.zergling would you mind posting your reason for voting mr.wiggles? And why you pick hin over the other suggested targets? I thought his last 18min switch to LSB was strange, but thats been noted. I think I am changing to Orgo after reading GGQ's analysis, but I think Ill give him time to respond before i change my vote again Orgo never responded, yet mr zergling later votes wiggles without really giving reasons why. On December 31 2010 15:28 Mr.Zergling wrote:
^^Also, Major FoS on Meapak now Doesn't say why. So right now I feel that he is either mafia or a dumb townie. So now I'm going to go into his previous games. After looking into HArry potter, he's posting pretty much the same, and he was part of a confirmed circle. Furthormore he also said he doesn't contribute until he feels he can. So right now, I'm saying he's just a dumb townie.
You just spend a whole post saying he is suspecious, but you reach the conclusion he is innocent just with a reference to HPmafia? I wrote why he is not playing the same as in HPmafia in my analysis, in that game there was no wishy washy posting. Also he was way less active, but he wasn't dump in that game. As I wrote in my post he was right about several things, he picked out LSB's fishy major proposal, and he picked Beneather was not a mafia hit. How is that dumb?
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I think IRC is more dangerous for mafia than it is for town. Just treat it as another public thread and we'll be fine.
Joining in!
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IRC was a great idea, I encourage town to take part in the discussions.
I’m now convinced Pandain is town.
We decided to hold off on Mr.Zergling, at least for tonight, and instead push for Orgolove. His only contribution to the thread is his vote for double lynch.
Annul is a top suspect. He hasn’t added anything apart from getting LSB lynched, and has now gone into lurking.
That said, we should ##vote double lynch for tomorrow. With the knowledge we get from the lynch and the night hits, we should be able to get 2 kills by then. Also it’s an insurance if Orgolove turns out not to be red, since we will need the extra KP.
Please go ahead and join us on IRC
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On January 02 2011 02:55 Barundar wrote:IRC was a great idea, I encourage town to take part in the discussions. I’m now convinced Pandain is town. We decided to hold off on Mr.Zergling, at least for tonight, and instead push for Orgolove. His only contribution to the thread is his vote for double lynch. Annul is a top suspect. He hasn’t added anything apart from getting LSB lynched, and has now gone into lurking. That said, we should ##vote double lynch for tomorrow. With the knowledge we get from the lynch and the night hits, we should be able to get 2 kills by then. Also it’s an insurance if Orgolove turns out not to be red, since we will need the extra KP. Please go ahead and join us on IRC
In Annuls defense, I've seen him do that a few times in other games. I'm more concerned that Darth is going to be gone, and that should be noted.
IRC, I feel its a good idea. I sadly can't log onto it right now because I'm on my lap top, stealing some internet.
I voted for insanious, because as I've said, I'm willing to give RoL one lynch, but I still feel very iffy about him.
I'm going to change my vote from insanious to Oroglove tho, because of his post saying Pandain been spamming. He has by far slowed his spamming in several recent games. It's like theres a different person playing lately...I still don't know how I feel about him though. I won't call him protown cuz I'm not used to this Pandain, but his posts do scream it. I just wished he himself posted more. Which I can't really talk, but my internet usage has been rather limited.
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I would add that Orgolove hasn't really done much besides squirm or angrily retaliate when pressured - and has all of 13 posts. It reminds me of Shockeyy from Pokemafia, who only showed up to speak up in his own defense and then posted some ridiculous claims to try and dodge the lynch (we'll have to see if this is the same). Lynching him might also give us some information on RoL, who has done some analysis but I'm somewhat uncertain on.
What I feel like this game has been lacking thus far is any consideration of vote lists. The LSB vote has had an obvious instigator in Annul, but what about the rest? I've picked out from the rest of the LSB list and added comments.
Vote list:+ Show Spoiler +annul
TheMango
orgolove
DoctorHelvetica DEAD
Meapak_Ziphh
Brocket
Barundar
LunarDestiny
bumatlarge DEAD
Pandain
TheMango - There isn't a lot of meta here, and I'd like to see him post a bit more before making a call on him. I don't think he's some sort of forum mafia scum-hunting god holding out on us, though, since playing by post and playing by person are vastly different in the kinds of cues and scumtells you can pick up on.
Meapak_Ziphh - There are some early posts that reflect ambiguous indecision in the early game; while this isn't necessarily a scumtell by itself, I think a lot of his latter posts are weak, especially in the post where he defends himself against Node's analysis - in that he sidesteps the analysis entirely. Lol dodge much? As for his spreadsheet... it doesn't mean anything. I'm not sure if I'd count this as a valuable contribution, especially since it isn't backed up with analysis. I'm leaning scum on him.
LunarDestiny - I still have some misgivings about LD, though after IRC I'm not as suspicious. I sincerely disagreed with a lot of his opinions and for some time I thought he might have been scum, but some IRC/PM discussion has made me think otherwise for now.
I'll look at the people from the Brocket list in a few hours...
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I don’t like this. There is no support for Orgolove, mafia seems way too likely to let him die. When Orgolove got pressured hard on day 2 in HPmafia, he spammed a lot trying to defend himself. In this game he doesn’t seem to care. He hasn’t added anything, but he is acting completely different when accused and we have no mafia counter bandwagon.
Therefore I’m going to switch my vote to annul. If he was town he would try and improve from his mistake on LSB, and try to come back in the game. Now he seems like he doesn’t care, and just lurks. This leads me to think he is a mafia who just want to get rid of the attention.
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Yeah, I agree that the lack of support for Orgolove is suspicious. Mafia have at least 6 members (guessing from the fact they have 3KP.) and his other members could at least defended him. I don't think there are enough reasons that Orgolove is mafia and no one else seemed to pointed it out earlier. If Orgolove is mafia, one of his other member will ask town to provided good reasons why Orgolove is mafia.
Also, annul was very active in the lynching of LSB. After night 1, we lost many veteran players but annul is still alive. If he is town, I thought he would try to redeem himself. This hasn't happened. I am also curious of annul's reason for lynch Mr.Zergling. I don't remember when he expressed his reason to lynch Mr.Zergling and a veteran player should at least give explanation for his voting.
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On January 02 2011 05:09 LunarDestiny wrote:
If Orgolove is mafia, one of his other member will ask town to provided good reasons why Orgolove is mafia.
You mean like you and Barundar just did?
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On January 02 2011 05:11 GGQ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2011 05:09 LunarDestiny wrote:
If Orgolove is mafia, one of his other member will ask town to provided good reasons why Orgolove is mafia. You mean like you and Barundar just did?
There is only like 6 hours left before the vote end. Why didn't we defended him earlier before a bandwagon on him is established.
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On January 02 2011 04:56 Pandain wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote Annul
Pandain pm'd me asking me to switch my vote to orgolove.....AND pushed him himself in the thread....Now why would he switch his vote to annul?
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On January 02 2011 04:41 Barundar wrote:
I don’t like this. There is no support for Orgolove, mafia seems way too likely to let him die. When Orgolove got pressured hard on day 2 in HPmafia, he spammed a lot trying to defend himself. In this game he doesn’t seem to care. He hasn’t added anything, but he is acting completely different when accused and we have no mafia counter bandwagon.
Therefore I’m going to switch my vote to annul. If he was town he would try and improve from his mistake on LSB, and try to come back in the game. Now he seems like he doesn’t care, and just lurks. This leads me to think he is a mafia who just want to get rid of the attention.
The lack of defense for him could be that he is red, and none of the mafia want to be associated with him if/when he flips red
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On January 02 2011 06:00 Mr.Zergling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2011 04:41 Barundar wrote:
I don’t like this. There is no support for Orgolove, mafia seems way too likely to let him die. When Orgolove got pressured hard on day 2 in HPmafia, he spammed a lot trying to defend himself. In this game he doesn’t seem to care. He hasn’t added anything, but he is acting completely different when accused and we have no mafia counter bandwagon.
Therefore I’m going to switch my vote to annul. If he was town he would try and improve from his mistake on LSB, and try to come back in the game. Now he seems like he doesn’t care, and just lurks. This leads me to think he is a mafia who just want to get rid of the attention. The lack of defense for him could be that he is red, and none of the mafia want to be associated with him if/when he flips red
So what do you think of annul?
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Okay guys, after several long and good discussions at the IRC we have decided that everyone should vote for annul. Besides a very agressive/argumentive position taken in day 1, Annul has shown several traits of scuminess, from his reboot into agression since LSB had claimed blue(and he had no doubt that LSB was red), to his activity level today, Annul has been very suspicious to me.
Note that annul has just "dropped" off the face of the earth. Where is he? Why isn't he being JUST as agressive as normal. One of the few things that led me to believe Annul was town was the thought of "why would annul be so aggressive and bring attention to himself."
The fact that Orgolove's lynch was very hotly debated on IRC, and we, and finally I have decided that it truly does hint that orgolove may be innocent. Now I still think he may be mafia, and offer him as a prime day 3 lynch, but annul was also one of our other main suspects.
The main problem with orgolove's lynch is that he isn't defending himself. That is what most worries me. I am not sure as to what that means, whether he's mafia and trying to just ride out the votes, or really just a inactive townie, but right now isn't the best time to lynch him.
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EPT
