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On December 02 2010 06:49 flamewheel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 04:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I don't know why people say faking PM conversations is so easy, it really isn't. Even with the dead, it's hard to write for two different people and make it look real and it's a huge risk that almost nobody is willing to take.
I've never seen a fake pm conversation ever playing mafia on TL. Hmm I doctored some PMs in XXVIII. I doubt anybody read any of them though. They still served their purpose!
A game I've never read so :x
Doctoring PMs works great if the person is dead and you're good enough to fake their writing style. But it could fall apart very easily.
Did you do it later in the game?
Regardless I don't think anyone (and this is a learning game) can pretend that a PM is more likely to be faked than it is to be real. It's a very risky and difficult strategy to pull off and at most PMs will be used deceptively and selectively rather than being conjured up out of thin air.
If someone is going to post PMs, I operate under the assumption that they are probably true. Perhaps edited, but not faked completely.
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That was posted after ghrur died, right? Forging a PM like that could be a decently risk-free way to remove suspicion from a few mafia members, assuming amber's mafia himself.
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The writing style is consistent with the "learning" PMs and posts sent back and forth between Ghrur.
This is like in Insane Mafia where these ridiculous MAYBE WHAT IF scenarios were constantly being used by mafia to detract town from trusting me, or making progress.
Occams Razor: The simplest and most easily explained scenario is often the truest. Or rather, if there are two solutions to a problem and one leaves more questions than it answers, maybe it's not the right one.
Isn't it far more likely that Amber is town and Ghrur PM'd him that because he wanted to target/implant ideas in the mind of an experienced town player? Couldn't that be the same reason they targeted BrownBear over Kenpachi because they'd rather lynch a good non-mafia aligned player (they didn't know he was CE, had no way of knowing since his router exploded) than a newer and poorer one like Kenpachi?
Yes MAYBE of course it's possible Amber faked it all. Even by the DT, nothing is 100% confirmable until someone dies. This is a prime opportunity created by the mafia to:
1. plant seeds of distrust on a clearly town player
2. railroad conversation somewhere completely useless
Let's not do this please. It's a waste of fucking time. Big time.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On December 02 2010 04:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I don't know why people say faking PM conversations is so easy, it really isn't. Even with the dead, it's hard to write for two different people and make it look real and it's a huge risk that almost nobody is willing to take.
I've never seen a fake pm conversation ever playing mafia on TL.
I wrote a bunch of fake PMs in Incognito's double family mafia game. I don't remember if they got posted in the thread but I had to make up a few I had with my mafia buddy and send them to some people (mainly Chezinu).
I thought it was rather easy but meh, I wrote them on the fly.
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I was in that game. So you faked PM's living people sent you and then PM'd them to others? That's a slightly different situation is it not?
I would never have the balls to fake a bunch of PMs and post them publicly as scum. And I doubt I could do it as well as Amber did if he did. And I don't think the possibility of it occurring makes it likely and it hardly makes Amber suspicious.
I would feel 100% more than comfortable faking it through PMs though. Posting a fake PM from a living person in a thread is a huge no no, all they have to do is call you out. Doing it through PMs is a lot safer. Doing it from a dead guy (which Ghrur) is has elements of safety but the potential risk is huge.
It would be a brilliant play if Ghrur was bused, but his death was an accident. Do the mafia really have the foresight to fake PMs on day 1 between eachother just for a late game bus to clear one person or a "JUST IN CASE" they died?
So what's the plan?
Amber: hey ghrur I need to look pro-town so send me a fake pm asking me for game advice then send me a fake pm trying to plant accusations on other players (which are maybe secretly mafia WHO KNOWS) to me then when we'll accidentally kill a mad hatter and get you killed so I can post the PMs and town will know I'm town!
Ghrur: ok!
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On December 02 2010 07:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I was in that game. So you faked PM's living people sent you and then PM'd them to others?
I would never have the balls to fake a bunch of PMs and post them publicly as scum. And I doubt I could do it as well as Amber did if he did.
I would feel 100% more than comfortable faking it through PMs though.
Oh yeah you were on my team XD
It was either that or I had to fake PMs that I had with a dead person (or fake PMs that one of our mafia partners had with a dead person). I forget why it happened and I'm too lazy to go back and look.
I want day to start! I want to see who dies!
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I'm not saying it's impossible
I'm saying it's unlikely especially given the circumstances. We know Ghrur is mafia and if he and Amber are BOTH mafia those PMs are too weird. They were at the very least obviously written by ghrur, but the intention is unclear because ghrur died by accident and there was no set-up for a ghrur bus on the first day.
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Ghrur also sent me the same sort of "advice" pms that he did to Amber. If he was in mafia isn't it more likely they'd just talk in quicktopic or irc or something?
KK thanks. ^_^ That was a lot more concise and to the point than my old pms with Bill Murray, lol.
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Original Message From DoctorHelvetica:
pressure the shit out of people, see how they react
mafia will feel pressured to respond to any PM they get, they're far more likely to crack/slip-up because they feel like it's easier to fool one person than the entire town
always have a backup PM line that u trust in case you die because of something you said in PM's so that all of your analysis isn't lost when you die
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Original Message From ghrur:
Kk, fishing aside, would you mind posting (or just telling me :D) how to effectively use the PM system?
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Original Message From DoctorHelvetica:
skeletons actually
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Original Message From ghrur:
Vampires? I thought we were zombies.
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Original Message From DoctorHelvetica:
who else is on our team ???
what do you mean why would you lynch me if we are both vampires
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Original Message From ghrur:
Thanks for the Day one lynch.
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Original Message From DoctorHelvetica:
my role pm didnt tell me who else was mafia but i know u r so can you tell me?
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On December 02 2010 06:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 06:49 flamewheel wrote:On December 02 2010 04:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I don't know why people say faking PM conversations is so easy, it really isn't. Even with the dead, it's hard to write for two different people and make it look real and it's a huge risk that almost nobody is willing to take.
I've never seen a fake pm conversation ever playing mafia on TL. Hmm I doctored some PMs in XXVIII. I doubt anybody read any of them though. They still served their purpose! A game I've never read so :x Doctoring PMs works great if the person is dead and you're good enough to fake their writing style. But it could fall apart very easily. Did you do it later in the game? Regardless I don't think anyone (and this is a learning game) can pretend that a PM is more likely to be faked than it is to be real. It's a very risky and difficult strategy to pull off and at most PMs will be used deceptively and selectively rather than being conjured up out of thin air. If someone is going to post PMs, I operate under the assumption that they are probably true. Perhaps edited, but not faked completely.
Yeah it was like Day 4 or something. I had set stuff up to leave the DT alive for a while, direct his checks, kill him, then shaft somebody else. Sorry Pandain!
Turns out being the Miller was just icing on the cake.
But Pandain was alive at that time, though I posted over 200000 words (or is it characters? TL gave me some message about nobody wanting to read all of that shit) and just doctored some very important parts just in case people tried to read through it all.
But anyway now I'm heavily derailing this game. Time to go back to lurking.
Also DrH no editing you know better. Bad Helvetica. Bad font!
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oh shit
i was under the mindset that we're discussing the game in kind of an outsider fashion so I made that silly mistake. foolishness quoted my original post though so it's all good I hope T_T
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On December 02 2010 07:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I was in that game. So you faked PM's living people sent you and then PM'd them to others? That's a slightly different situation is it not?
I would never have the balls to fake a bunch of PMs and post them publicly as scum. And I doubt I could do it as well as Amber did if he did. And I don't think the possibility of it occurring makes it likely and it hardly makes Amber suspicious.
I would feel 100% more than comfortable faking it through PMs though. Posting a fake PM from a living person in a thread is a huge no no, all they have to do is call you out. Doing it through PMs is a lot safer. Doing it from a dead guy (which Ghrur) is has elements of safety but the potential risk is huge.
It would be a brilliant play if Ghrur was bused, but his death was an accident. Do the mafia really have the foresight to fake PMs on day 1 between eachother just for a late game bus to clear one person or a "JUST IN CASE" they died?
So what's the plan?
Amber: hey ghrur I need to look pro-town so send me a fake pm asking me for game advice then send me a fake pm trying to plant accusations on other players (which are maybe secretly mafia WHO KNOWS) to me then when we'll accidentally kill a mad hatter and get you killed so I can post the PMs and town will know I'm town!
Ghrur: ok!
This actually sounds pretty convincing. I might have to vote for myself on Day 3.
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I've faked PMs before (well, modified, but close enough). It was actually quite easy to keep them believable. The trick is to only make minor changes to them. Like in my case, I just deleted a few lines which were incriminating a person I wanted to protect and otherwise left the PMs alone. I might have changed a few names here and there too.
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Modifying isn't close enough
There is a huge difference between faking an entire back and forth PM conversation and simply omitting lines or adding information/changing wording
none of the coaches agree with me on this? T_T
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On December 02 2010 07:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Amber: hey ghrur I need to look pro-town so send me a fake pm asking me for game advice then send me a fake pm trying to plant accusations on other players (which are maybe secretly mafia WHO KNOWS) to me then when we'll accidentally kill a mad hatter and get you killed so I can post the PMs and town will know I'm town!
Ghrur: ok!
Well of course that's ridiculous-- if anything of the sort went down it was just
Mafia: Well fuck ghrur died. Let's at least fake a PM from him and post it to throw town off, so that we get some benefit out of him.
Amber: hey I'll post it
Mafia: sweet
If people don't think that the PM sounds faked though, then we should treat it as real and just move on. In that case, amber pretty much would be confirmed town.
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On December 02 2010 07:46 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Modifying isn't close enough
There is a huge difference between faking an entire back and forth PM conversation and simply omitting lines or adding information/changing wording
none of the coaches agree with me on this? T_T
It really isn't that different. You still get to force the conversation to point suspicion in the direction you want it to go. You are just a little more constrained with your starting point.
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On December 02 2010 07:46 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Modifying isn't close enough
There is a huge difference between faking an entire back and forth PM conversation and simply omitting lines or adding information/changing wording
none of the coaches agree with me on this? T_T
Tweaking PMs merely adds, removes, or alters information on a more subtle basis. It doesn't change the fact that correspondence was still made, and that most or all of the PMs in the sequence are probably still as the original author intended them.
Making up a PM or series of PMs is very different, in my eyes. It tries to convince the others that what is essentially a complete lie is in fact the shared perspective of the person being forged.
I don't see why this isn't understood.
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So you're agreeing with me then Aeres?
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On December 02 2010 08:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
So you're agreeing with me then Aeres?
Yes.
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On December 02 2010 06:49 flamewheel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 04:37 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I don't know why people say faking PM conversations is so easy, it really isn't. Even with the dead, it's hard to write for two different people and make it look real and it's a huge risk that almost nobody is willing to take.
I've never seen a fake pm conversation ever playing mafia on TL. Hmm I doctored some PMs in XXVIII. I doubt anybody read any of them though. They still served their purpose!
Me too! I've doctored a few with dead people.
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On December 02 2010 07:46 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Modifying isn't close enough
There is a huge difference between faking an entire back and forth PM conversation and simply omitting lines or adding information/changing wording
none of the coaches agree with me on this? T_T
No, we do not. Sorry. In fact I've faked a mod PM before (as long as it wasn't the role PM this was not illegal back then). Its easy and its been done before. 
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EPT
