EPTTL Mafia XXX
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On August 05 2010 14:58 DarthThienAn wrote: I'm mafia guys. Just saying. It is ok, I already have a bomb on him. | ||
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I am throwing my wait behind lynching an inactive, unless we see obvious scum. | ||
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On August 06 2010 12:30 Bill Murray wrote: I am actually fishing with the Divinek wagon. Whoever the 3rd person to vote on it is is going to be lynched imo By saying this you just invalidated its premise. I think I am going to vote for him just because  | ||
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The reason for lynching inactives is because it forces activity which is good for the town. Regardless of your alignment if you are not posting and barely contributing you are anti-town. The Traitor role is added to games because having even one town person trying cause problems can balance a game where the mafia is too weak. Every person who creates chaos for sake of chaos or who hides and doesn't post is effectively playing a traitor role. The town feels good if a lynch gets the traitor even though he isn't technically red. For some players even if they flip green town should cheer because at least we got traitor even if in name only. If everyone is active then sure, lets look at posts for day one, but if we have inactives you can be sure I will be voting for them because regardless of how they flip the town is better off. Sorry for the rant, but is something I have been pondering for a while and wanted to share. | ||
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So I came up with a plan... Not even saying it is a good one but it was late last night and I couldn't sleep. So I will throw it out on the stoop and see if the cat licks it up. + Show Spoiler + It involves 1 person role claiming TODAY. we then protect this person and use them as a confirmed townie. Now here is where the plan takes shape. Since mafia can stack our protection will fail and he will die, but wait we actually have something even better. a Bus Driver. The bus driver will now perpetually Bus our claimant. Instead of the bus driver being an element of chaos he becomes the towns best medic. Regardless of if they Triple stack him he won't die. Even in the hands of a beginner this role would be now be powerful as they would be certain to using it for good. Another benefit is that it gives the blue roles the knowledge of if they hit the bus driver. Say for a minute that we use the vigilante. Now we can be sure there is only one in this game since it is such a strong role. If a DT checks someone and he gets vigilante then he knows he hit the other end of the chain and will know to disregard that nights reading. We have just eliminated the early chaos that this role generates. The other thing is that the mafia now knows if they risk hitting vig there is a chance it will fire back on them. Ok now I used vig in this example because he seems the best candidate but I could be wrong so town can advise. If we have the vig claim we know there will be only 1 (since otherwise town KP would be crazy) if we get 2 then we lynch both. This means we trade 1 vigilante for 1 Red with a 50% chance that the real vig stays alive. There are a few outliers that could happen and I am considering them now but thought I would put this plan out as early as possible so in case we go with it all parties would have the most time to see what was going on possible. | ||
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Plan, Please Review It involves 1 person role claiming TODAY. we then protect this person and use them as a confirmed townie. Now here is where the plan takes shape. Since mafia can stack our protection will fail and he will die, but wait we actually have something even better. a Bus Driver. The bus driver will now perpetually Bus our claimant. Instead of the bus driver being an element of chaos he becomes the towns best medic. Regardless of if they Triple stack him he won't die. Even in the hands of a beginner this role would be now be powerful as they would be certain to using it for good. Another benefit is that it gives the blue roles the knowledge of if they hit the bus driver. Say for a minute that we use the vigilante. Now we can be sure there is only one in this game since it is such a strong role. If a DT checks someone and he gets vigilante then he knows he hit the other end of the chain and will know to disregard that nights reading. We have just eliminated the early chaos that this role generates. The other thing is that the mafia now knows if they risk hitting vig there is a chance it will fire back on them. Ok now I used vig in this example because he seems the best candidate but I could be wrong so town can advise. If we have the vig claim we know there will be only 1 (since otherwise town KP would be crazy) if we get 2 then we lynch both. This means we trade 1 vigilante for 1 Red with a 50% chance that the real vig stays alive. There are a few outliers that could happen and I am considering them now but thought I would put this plan out as early as possible so in case we go with it all parties would have the most time to see what was going on possible. | ||
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On August 06 2010 23:00 zeks wrote: Couple things come to mind: 1. Scum is the person that claims 2. Eventually we might be suspicious of the claimer and a DT checks him - perfect opportunity for the framer 3. Who would we bus to take hits? Dont mind new ideas but I suggest we leave plans until after 1 night of actions has taken place What I think of BM: I honestly don't think he's serious about his mass roleclaim plan. Probably just a ploy to seem radical - the more shit he stirs up within town the less likely scum will hit him because it seems like he's playing a stupid townie role (scum loves to keep these people). I think BM is very likely to live for a couple of days, but if things start going downhill he should be somewhere on the top of our hitlists If scum claims great, we traded the vigis possible shot for a deffinate lynch - good for town The benefit of using the vig is that he can prove himself by shooting someone. If that night there are 4 hits and the person we asked to be shot gets hit as well he is 100% confirmed. if there are 3 hits then it doesn't mean he is guilty he is instead still questionable and either we now have a red or we forced the mafia to hold a shot because they want to discredit our confirmed townie. Really the danger I see is that there are 0 or 2 vigis, if this was another role, say doctor then I would be worried about 2 legits, but it isn't it is vig, no way town has 2 of them, especially with so many claimants. I would be more worried that we might not have a vig at all, but I think that is unlikely since the town probably need it to help balance out the many other KP roles currently in this game. Plus it is named wannabe batman!! I personally don't think the host would come up with such lovingly crafted descriptions and names for roles and then decline to have even 1 of them in a 30 person game. There is one and only one vig this game I would give it a 98% probability (hey that is 10% higher than I gave bum being town last game ) | ||
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On August 06 2010 23:06 chaoser wrote: Though I guess the vigi/ninja could kill someone and then claim it. If there's a counterclaim then what? do we kill the first one to claim or the second one to claim? Either way I guess we find a mafia? I think we weigh both and then decide, if we say which gets lynched first mafia will either just wait very late or try to claim immediately. Yeah if it nets mafia a 50% is way better than our current odds. | ||
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On August 06 2010 23:26 chaoser wrote: Cause if vigi comes out now, he could just be roleblocked and then framed. And if it's a mafia then they can say they were roleblocked/framed too so there's no real way we can check him. I like your plan above! but just so we realize, once he does claim it will not be possible to ever frame or investigate him from that point on without working with the busdriver since you will be getting whoever the busdriver targets results. Of course the busdriver will be randomly targeting people to be on the receiving end, hopefully mafia people in case they take the gamble. If the DT and Busdriver do get together the the DT could check the busdrivers target but that would probably be too late in the game. | ||
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On August 06 2010 23:18 love1another wrote: I'm a confirmed townie please. Don't kill me plz LOL, you post this as your only content and then immediate go and vote for me for putting pressure on you to at least be active..... very scummy. I want more than a one line claiming confirmed (You aren't confirmed no one is right now!). Add something, review my plan and post your thoughts, even if you disagree it can still give us insight into you and help improve the plan or scrap it if it is bad. | ||
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On August 06 2010 23:48 KF91 wrote: Just saw this in the voting thread: First a one-liner in the game thread then a reactive vote towards someone because they were voting a reactive. Mafia or not, this is just being useless to the town :/ Hm, this would be the best scenario, but how are we going to guarantee a counter-claim from the mafia? And I just read this: So rastaban, your plan can't be implemented until Night 2 :/ Good catch on the Vigi exception I had forgot about it, I guess I just outed myself as a non-vigi looks like we wait until day 2 to consider this plan. Also you just ninja'd my post about love1, I now am 100% convinced you are a ninja, don't deny it | ||
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On August 07 2010 00:52 Misder wrote: Doesn't this still raise the risk of Vigi hitting a blue role though? I thought that was the reason that Vigi doesn't hit as soon as possible. Well he can't hit tonight so we don't have to worry about it for now. I would prefer they claim while they have their shot, and then we use it to verify them if their are counter claims. If we wait until after they shoot then we can use this plan until day/night 3 If we just have them claim tomorrow then they can shoot the other claimant that night or if it isn't counter claimed we enact the plan. | ||
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If we wait until after they shoot then we can't use this plan until day/night 3 Since we can't do it tonight though, it means we need to start analyzing who to lynch still since we can't luck out with mafia claiming vig today. | ||
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On August 07 2010 01:25 Pandain wrote: Bad idea, mafia will just roleblock the real vigi since they will know. And then that Vigi can claim he killed other vigi. GRR how do I keep forgetting the information in the OP! Great catch, well that rules it out, we can still lynch 1 and then the other the next night though. | ||
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On August 07 2010 01:44 tree.hugger wrote: Summary of the last couple pages. - Chezinu upped his game. Wow. - Pyrr and BM are either geniuses, or they both fell on their swords spectacularly. - ratasban has a plan. Re: The mass roleclaim. I think ninjas would make the plan difficult, they'd provide cover in the greens for mafia to hide amongst. Last time we mass roleclaimed, I got killed immediately because Meeple saved the mafia claimant for a less-important role. Re: Rastaban's plan. I think that actually makes a lot of sense, but it isn't as solid as you suggest. First, if the Bus Driver is on the vigi, we're leaving it up to the BD's discretion who to hit instead. Which means that they could just as easily hit the DT as they could hit the mafia. In fact, since blues outnumber mafia this game, then that could be more likely, and more disastrous for the town. Secondly, the mafia could simply ignore the vigi, and go kill other people. Where does that leave the town? The vigi is not a role that we can really do much with if confirmed. Whereas if we were somehow protecting the DT, then they could pass info on to us, protecting the vigi doesn't do much but set up a really obvious trap that has an equal chance of blowing up in our faces, not to mention the mafia would likely avoid it to begin with. The mafia pretty much has to ignore him though, because there normal hits 100% guaranteed not to hit them, but if they target the vig then while it is likely they hit town they also have a 1/5 chance of hitting them selves (actually slightly higher since they definitely wont get the busdriver or the vig.) So every shot lobbed at the vig is actual great for town. The mafia will most likely ignore it and try to snip the other blue especially the busdriver. If the vigi is confirmed (we need to be 100% sure though) then other investigative blue roles can claim to him and he can share their results. so eventually it will work much like if the DT had claimed. | ||
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On August 07 2010 01:50 larjarse wrote: LOLing that noone said anything about this. And once he proclaimed that he is a townie, he was voted by rastaban and chaoser. Suspiciousssoo Hmmm you might want to try and follow the thread a little instead of making up facts. I already commented on this. On August 06 2010 23:51 rastaban wrote: LOL, you post this as your only content and then immediate go and vote for me for putting pressure on you to at least be active..... very scummy. I want more than a one line claiming confirmed (You aren't confirmed no one is right now!). Add something, review my plan and post your thoughts, even if you disagree it can still give us insight into you and help improve the plan or scrap it if it is bad. Also if you look at the vote times I voted him before he had posted that, in fact he only responded with that one liner after I voted for him and proceeded to immediately vote for me. You wouldn't be trying to defend a scum buddy who is under fire would you? | ||
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On August 07 2010 02:11 larjarse wrote: Valid point, rastaban. I am just G checking you to get some text.. As you can see, I haven't change my vote. At least you are posting, too many inactives right now, I saw on the vote list tree.hugger found another one who hasn't posted yet. I need to be careful though, I don't want to be spammy either as i hate that. Hopefully most of my points have had content regarding my plan or viewing others. To help make this post relevant here is the updated list of inactives: 0 posts: Roffles Hesmyrr Infunblahblah SouthRawrea Artanis[xp] Small 1 liners: Laan On August 06 2010 15:03 Iaaan wrote: Hi guys. I haven't read any posts past page 10 yet, but I will probably tomorrow, its late today :/ All I have to add right now is, we really need to be cutting down on the spam as townies, I'm sure I don't need to explain how spam makes it easier for the mafia to get by just by posting BS, thus letting them hide amongst the spam. That is all. Love1another On August 06 2010 23:18 love1another wrote: I'm a confirmed townie please. Don't kill me plz | ||
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On August 07 2010 03:17 SouthRawrea wrote: Actually that is incorrect. I had a post at the very start. Hey you are right but the day post wasn't even up yet so it doesn't count. | ||
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On August 07 2010 03:13 chaoser wrote: Two points though 1) mafia's got a roleblocker so they could just block the vigi that claims. 2) If mafia stack hits on people then the plan might get thrown out of whack. 1. if the vigi is being bus driven the RB won't stop him 2. yeah I need to dissect the new additions it might work but it makes the plan more complicated so there could be more holes. Thinking this through to see what could be exploited. | ||
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On August 07 2010 03:30 SouthRawrea wrote: The way I see it, we have 2-3 ninjas most likely 3 IF flamewheel is being reasonable. These ninjas will and SHOULD check people the first night and any ninja claims should not be taken seriously at this time unless there is a good reason. Now: we could have a single ninja be our "town" ninja and he will be checked by the DT and protected by the doc. This way we add another power role to our arsenal. This leaves the other 1-2 ninja(s) to be alone for a while. After a mafia member is put up on the chopping block and is about to be killed, there is an opportunity for a ninja to join their side. Thus we get rid of the chaos that is random killing by ninjas within the first few days. The last ninja if there is one will probably end up rolling alone and trying to get the mafia or town side to reveal the name of the other ninja so they can replace them. Of course we can't always trust that would be a good idea. Now here is where this can really benefit us. If one of the ninjas finds the doctor, they should refrain from killing them so that they can threaten the doctor at first and then have them reveal the name of the other ninja so that they can replace them as the town sided ninja. Now the ninja to first want to side with the town will have to play the entire game hoping that the others don't find the doctor but they only have 3 investigations each anyhow and the town-sided ninja will be able to be safe for the first few days giving him an edge. The only way to get a claim with out being roleblocked though is to get a DT mouth. This entire scenario allows us to bring order to this crazy ninja thing and allows us to obtain a power role as an extra. Dealio for day 2? Pyhrr's slip has pretty much confirmed that there are 3 ninjas and that he gets hit tonight. I think we will be looking at only 2 by tomorrow. I don't understand the whole blackmailing doctors to protect them, they have no way of knowing if the doctor is protecting them or not until they die. Any doctor would immediately agree and then just protect whoever they were going to. until there is only 1 there is no way of knowing if the blocked hit was from the doctor they are blackmailing. I don't get why you seem to think they will be checking tonight. The ninjas only can check only 3 times, it seems it would be more prudent to wait until later when there are fewer canidates unless they have a really good read on a specific person. I don't see them indiscriminately killing either, they get 1 shot, and from then on they have to have the town or mafia do their killing for them. They will want to be 100% sure that their target is another ninja or else they will end up being impotent. | ||
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On August 07 2010 03:42 SouthRawrea wrote: They get two shots btw and Pyrr... nvm not gonna spoil a possible plan of his if the slip was intentional. You only have one pair of chopsticks though (meaning two!), so think carefully before throwing one! (You throw them one at a time) whoa you are right, I completely misunderstood that line, so yeah indiscriminate killing is a go. | ||
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On August 07 2010 05:24 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote: nah, lynching a Ninja is a waste of a lynch. The other Ninjas are going to want to throw their chopsticks at him anyway since that's how they win. Might as well let them do it since there's no guarantee we're gonna get a town-Ninja. This is correct, no need to waste a lynch, if we need to kill a ninja just say who he is in thread. The other ninjas will take care of the rest. | ||
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0 posts: Roffles Hesmyrr Artanis[xp] Small 1 liners: Laan + Show Spoiler + On August 06 2010 15:03 Iaaan wrote: Hi guys. I haven't read any posts past page 10 yet, but I will probably tomorrow, its late today :/ All I have to add right now is, we really need to be cutting down on the spam as townies, I'm sure I don't need to explain how spam makes it easier for the mafia to get by just by posting BS, thus letting them hide amongst the spam. That is all. Love1another + Show Spoiler + On August 06 2010 23:18 love1another wrote: I'm a confirmed townie please. Don't kill me plz Posted substantially since the last list: + Show Spoiler + SouthRawrea iNfuNdiBuLuM (sorry about spelling your name wrong last time it was a copy paste error I didn't notice.) | ||
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On August 07 2010 08:05 Pandain wrote: How about we in the thread just say "okay, now all you people visit THIS GUY's" house. the people don't even have to claim. Than the watcher can meet up with the tracker and we have a town circle already. With no suicide bomber, we have no risk either. OMFG WAS THIS AN ACTUAL IDEA!?!? That might be good?????? I know, I'm scared too O.o Comments? Hmm it almost might would work... What the watcher though doesn't know who is who... the mafia can send their roleblocker or framer that night and now they are listed as verified. at first I thought mafia could hit him but the watcher would get the name of one of the mafia so it wouldn't be beneficial. Hmm I don't straight up disagree it might be an option but needs thought out a little more... Anyone else have any thoughts on this? | ||
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On August 07 2010 08:23 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Oh good point, they don't have to send a hit. But that just gives us a list of people confirmed to be red or blue which should still help, I think. Yeah I would say a tracker/watcher for a red is a good trade. | ||
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On August 07 2010 08:45 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Problem: what if THIS GUY is a ninja? The watcher could watch the ninja's house, I think. But the tracker wouldn't show up, I think. This is my interpretation of the rules. no the Tracker just wouldn't know if he left the house or if a ninja investigated/killed him | ||
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and the watcher wouldn't know if a ninja investigated/killed him | ||
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On August 07 2010 12:50 tree.hugger wrote: Interesting developments so far. I'm not one for plans, and Pandain pm'd me his idea (along with several other people, he said) and I told him I didn't like it because roleblockers and framers could get in with all of the other roles and mess stuff up. Some of the obstacles that I brought up in pm's have been addressed, but I still am not really sure how this plan intends to deal with all of the counter-claims that always come out. The watcher is going to have a hard time figuring out which roles are actually in the game, which roles we have one of, and which roles we have two of, ect. DT's then need to check things out. But if the mafia claims DT, then we'll just be feeding them the names of blue players, which is dangerous. And we can't verify people without the DT's. We might have two, one, or none of them. I have no idea. I think this is a good idea in principle, but there are some potentially fatal kinks, and I'm not sure how I'd address them. If we do this plan keep it simple. Watcher and Tracker, any more just hurts the plan and puts more at risk. Think like Day 9 says. You don't need a big lead, go for the sure small lead it will add up over the game. We don't need a miracle plan to confirm all the townies we get the watcher and and tracker teamed up and we have already made the town much stronger. we can then build off this, but if we get greedy then it makes things too dangerous. | ||
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Night all. | ||
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larjarse Pyrrhuloxia DarthThienAn love1another chaoser youngminii Votes for Divinek (1) bumatlarge Votes for youngminii (1) Jayme Votes for love1another (10) rastaban KF91 Hesmyrr SouthRawrea Bill Murray LSB Foolishness Divinek Amber[LighT] Roffles Votes for Artanis[Xp] (1) tree.hugger Votes for BrownBear (2) ~OpZ~ zeks Votes for Iaaan (1) BrownBear Votes for Hesmyrr (1) Artanis[Xp] Votes for Roffles (3) Misder Pandain iNfuNdiBuLuM Votes for Iaaan (1) VayeshMoru Votes for Chaoser (1) XeliN Votes for Double Lynch (2/26) Pandain Bill Murray In danger of modkill (need to vote) (4) Chezinu Iaaan | ||
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On August 08 2010 10:09 rastaban wrote: Votes for Bill Murray (6) larjarse Pyrrhuloxia DarthThienAn love1another chaoser youngminii Votes for Divinek (1) bumatlarge Votes for youngminii (1) Jayme Votes for love1another (10) rastaban KF91 Hesmyrr SouthRawrea Bill Murray LSB Foolishness Divinek Amber[LighT] Roffles Votes for Artanis[Xp] (1) tree.hugger Votes for BrownBear (2) ~OpZ~ zeks Votes for Iaaan (1) BrownBear Votes for Hesmyrr (1) Artanis[Xp] Votes for Roffles (3) Misder Pandain iNfuNdiBuLuM Votes for Iaaan (1) VayeshMoru Votes for Chaoser (1) XeliN Votes for Double Lynch (2/26) Pandain Bill Murray In danger of modkill (need to vote) (4) Chezinu Iaaan Grrrr, I missed Chezinu's vote on Roffles... 5 minutes before VayeshMoru. | ||
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Really though I just wanted people to realize the vote is betweenLove1another (10) Bill Murray (6) Roffles (4) | ||
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On August 08 2010 10:29 BrownBear wrote: really its between BM and Love1another. The people voting for Roffles are mostly just placeholders/people who don't care about the day 1 lynch. What are your thoughts on the two candidates then? I see you are voting Iaaan who is going to be modkilled. | ||
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On August 08 2010 10:33 chaoser wrote: It's not even close, it's just 10 v 6. I feel like if it was closer we would learn a lot more. IE if one was mafia, people would move late in the day to save them. Ehhh... I am game 9 v 7 | ||
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On August 06 2010 14:08 rastaban wrote: Regarding inactivity, last game both SouthRawea and Xelin were very inactive, if we had lynched them earlier for this we would have gotten the IT before he had a chance to wreck us. instead we pushed for supposedly obvious lynches. Day 2, not a single person on the kill list was mafia. Mafia can be quiet as well. The reason for lynching inactives is because it forces activity which is good for the town. Regardless of your alignment if you are not posting and barely contributing you are anti-town. The Traitor role is added to games because having even one town person trying cause problems can balance a game where the mafia is too weak. Every person who creates chaos for sake of chaos or who hides and doesn't post is effectively playing a traitor role. The town feels good if a lynch gets the traitor even though he isn't technically red. For some players even if they flip green town should cheer because at least we got traitor even if in name only. If everyone is active then sure, lets look at posts for day one, but if we have inactives you can be sure I will be voting for them because regardless of how they flip the town is better off. Sorry for the rant, but is something I have been pondering for a while and wanted to share. But I guess if we can flesh out mafia then it is a good thing. Last game us mafia spread out on the first vote since everyone was innocent... so only time will tell what we have here. | ||
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On August 08 2010 11:02 chaoser wrote: why did you switch and then switch back rastaban -_- To try and screw up flamewheels count. I started the bandwagon on love1another so I thought I should see it through since no one else seemed to think making the vote tallies closer to see what we could glean was worth while. In fact no one jumping at all or commenting is a little odd, if he flips town it might be useful to know later... | ||
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P.S.S. I still love you mafia buddy | ||
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Well I guess that means no more jewels like this: A full listing of love1anothers words this thread + Show Spoiler + On July 29 2010 20:43 love1another wrote: OH WOW I SEE THIS THREAD! /in! On August 06 2010 23:18 love1another wrote: I'm a confirmed townie please. Don't kill me plz On August 07 2010 11:02 love1another wrote: Damn it, I'm not a lurker. I'm in Shanghai so my hours are completely different from you guys. That doesn't make me a mafia! On August 07 2010 22:08 love1another wrote: Bill Murray. I believe you! *wink* *wink* | ||
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I cant... stop... watching..... | ||
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On August 08 2010 13:08 Foolishness wrote: Aren't you supposed to be arguing with BM? I recall you making multiple posts about how when BM flips red I'm for sure his mafia buddy. Which is strange as a whole since BM has been actively opposing me for a while now...but I guess that's just cause he realized you were obviously townie so he turned to look at the next best player who could be mafia and here I was! Say, have you dared to notice how this thread has been dominated by the same 10ish people? I mean surely you have to have realized that you've been holding conversations in the thread with the same people over and over and over again. I only happened to take notice when I decided to make a list of the inactive/lurkers. And I got 16-20 people on that list, give or take. And now I beg to wonder...when you, BM, Divinek, Pandain, and youngminii are through killing each other off, how you going to find the rest of the mafia? Do you even have any idea who among the lurkers is probably innocent and who's suspicious? Probably not because you're busy formulating the town plan and looking at the active players (there's nothing wrong with this at all, I'm just saying how it is). Now it seems very reasonable to me (and I'd hope a few others) that all you goody active players just toss your ego's aside for a moment and take care to notice of the fact that good players who are normally active are pretty much mia this entire game (i.e. Chezinu, Infundibulum, DTA). Not to mention some veteran is smurfing under the name VayeshMoru. Perhaps we should be looking here since when the lot of you are finish killing yourselves off the town is going to be screwed. And I do realize that there's a better chance I'm going to invent a perpetual motion device tomorrow than of this happening, but I guess I just secretly hope someone takes note of this and learns from it. I don't see any reason why this game isn't a repeat of the one BM hosted. Mafia sit back and do nothing and watch town kill themselves. Yes I realize it got a tad bit complicated in the middle but still. I know you're probably thinking at some point "Well hey Foolishness, you are normally more active that you're currently being why should we pay more attention to Chezinu than you?" Truth is, I don't have time to deal with all your "town plans" that probably aren't going to work and your suspicions against me. I got a job to do, I'm weeding out mafia members among the lurkers. And that's what I do best. It's day one and I don't got much to go on since nobody is pressuring any of the lurkers, but I'd like to think I'm getting somewhere with it. And there are more than enough people that can vouch that I'm active in PM land. You go do what you do. I'm going to go do what I do. I'll talk to you when it's necessary and I have information. If you or BM or anyone keep taking one-liner shots at me in the thread, don't expect a response, I don't have the time. Hmm some valid points here. The fact that we spent the last 25 pages arguing over 4 plans and none came to fruition lends his post some credence. What do we need to do to get the other players talking more. I guess lynch inactive people... | ||
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On August 09 2010 00:04 LSB wrote: I wouldn't recommend it. My plan relys on complete town cohesion. Every single blue role must participate, or else it fails. The problem is, people have been accusing each other distracting from forming a plan. Certainly someone in there is doing this deliberatively, in order for us to win, we have to work together and random accusations distracts us. Just proceed as normal. I'll try to push my plan tomorrow One other thing to remember is some of the blues may be the inactive ones, thinking day 1 doesn't matter too much. They may have skipped over the plans or already sent in their night actions. Since the ground work is laid if we start tomorrow we can get things straightened out sooner which should help with getting the town organized | ||
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On August 09 2010 05:48 BrownBear wrote: I've been thinking about it, trying to find a hole in it for the last hour or so, and so far I find it foolproof. Doesn't mean there isn't a hole, just means I haven't found one I'm alright with it. Let's do it! I can think of a couple flaws. Mafia claims Watcher, which is which? Roles already sent their PMs in We have random townies showing up We have more than 1 Watcher We have more than 1 Tracker,DT, Medic Target gets framed so we lynch xelin and we don't know which blue we can't trust. This is why a simple version is better | ||
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On August 09 2010 13:15 Roffles wrote: You guys suck, where are my PMs? I don't PM people with unique icons, they seem to be too good for the rest of us | ||
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On August 09 2010 13:59 Divinek wrote: well so far you have been playing very different than you usually do man where's the young we know and love with his big red bold lists and his 'im gonna get you lynched motherfucker' attitude YM, you are completely different this game, I don't mean to bandwagon you but you need to shape up or it is the rope for you. There is no majority lynch this game so you have plenty of time to defend yourself and convince us, if you are legit. | ||
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On August 10 2010 00:59 SouthRawrea wrote: Question: Why is Youngminii tied for votes against Bill Murray? Something is wrong here. If there is a reason for those votes please tell us. This would've probably been brought up later once the vote count came in. Are you asking for why the votes are on YM or BM? if YM i can answer, if BM... I guess they don't want YM lynched | ||
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On August 10 2010 01:08 youngminii wrote: Oh yeah rastaban, good work coming up with solid reasoning, maybe you should have talked a little more with your scummates first. The votes on BM came before the votes on me. Both bandwagons are dumb. I'd like to direct your attention to foolishness, stop voting uselessly on me and BM please. Kthx. Worried that your hit last night didn't finish the job? | ||
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1) Completely different play style than when he is playing as town. you say that you are trying to play different this game but that brings us to the second big thing. 2) Minimal contributions, you could still be helping the town, but so far you have not contributed much, it seems your biggest posts are the ones defending yourself. | ||
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Thanks, I was confused for a moment, Bum you are correct, only way foolishness could be mafia is if he is GF. | ||
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On August 10 2010 05:13 VayeshMoru wrote: Simple mistake to make. One must learn to read the past to make sense of the path we walk on. That is why a scribe has been needed. uhg... maybe in your previous games they have all been roleplaying games. But you don't have to stay in character here. We need real content not just stories, and I know you are thinking that it is clever hiding stuff in them but we don't know what is real and what isn't. It ends up being no better than getting clues that the mafia can twist. | ||
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On August 10 2010 05:31 VayeshMoru wrote: Does not matter. You fail to see the logic in this. A framer followed leads to a dead victim, not who he framed. The tracker would prove xelin town if xelin went out. No? Chezinu can you confirm this since you are the tracker? | ||
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On August 10 2010 07:51 XeliN wrote: How long do we have left of today? Day ends in 27 hours I think... | ||
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On August 10 2010 21:35 Jayme wrote: I'll be frank when I say BM gives off more red vibe than Youngminii does. Youngminii always plays like this but it at least gets discussion going. BM always plays like this and derails the ENTIRE town in the process no matter what color he is. Plus he potentially outed someone actually valuable. Thats unforgivable. Depending on how he flips determines next course of action. I would agree with you but Young never plays like this he is very different this game. | ||
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iNfuNdiBuLuM,youngminii,Jayme,zeks snippet of my PM with some reasoning Infun is quiet and I believe all the other top players You, Foolishness, Pyrr are town aligned. I don't have any solid evidence but unless Foolishness flips he is probably the best choice for balance reasons. Young for the reasons stated in thread Zeks and Jayme for minimal contributions but mainly for their dismissive posts. They don't argue anything, they just try and make everyone doubt everything that is said. (Much like us mafia tried to do in our previous game) | ||
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heading it probably the GF, Hesmyrr or iNfuNdiBuLuM Overlap (likely Mafia) youngminii,Jayme, possible mafia zeks, Misder, Larjarse I might be wrong and will need to double check my sheets when I get home but I think Misder is probably innocent. He is lurking, but he did last game too. I think he has made some key pro-town moves though so that is my reasoning for defending him. Larjarse is still 50/50 to me so I might be missing something, care to explain this one? | ||
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On August 11 2010 02:32 XeliN wrote: Ok, there are still a select number of people who have not yet roleclaimed to me. Let me be perfectly clear, I was visited last night by a slew of people, I claim publically to be 100% confirmed, without possible doubt whatsoever, by the trackers who visited me last night as well as others. If I am lying in this then I would undoubtedly be called out by now. If your town, and have still not PM'd me your role now would be a most helpful time to do so, there are still a select number of people who have not, and amongst them i suspect there might be an important or possibly some important roles to us. It's getting to the point where we can eliminate mafia simply by process of elimination or force them into a position of fake roleclaiming. So to surmise. If your town and have not yet contacted me about your role. DO SO PLEASE, it would be invaluably helpful. I actually recommend everyone blue or green to go ahead and claim to Xelin, he seems legit. BM, yeah I agree both Jayme and Zeks look scummy as all get out. I really think we should be looking at them tomorrow. if you do end up dieing at the lynch, or even tonight and flip town the people on your wagon are going to be prime suspects. | ||
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On August 11 2010 03:04 Bill Murray wrote: @rastaban, what are your thoughts on the benefits and repercussions of fake-claiming tracker as mafia? With as many as we have it seems likely to me but it really makes no sense. In my investigations we have between 3-4 confirmed trackers and 0 watchers. it is possible to fake claim tracker but besides the bus driver it is the hardest role to fake. You have to know where that person went, and it could be any one. In fact it is easier to claim DT because ninjas can fake it. I am not in the blue circle but I have talked to them, and due to some slip ups in this thread, deductions, and mouths I have come to learn this information. You probably already know this as well or you wouldn't be posing the question to begin with. | ||
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On August 11 2010 04:11 Hesmyrr wrote: You used tracker's' contacted you, and I don't see Flamewheel putting more than 2 in since they are investigation role. I just don't. I suppose I'll wait and see- read my post above. Believe it or not there are 4 tracker claims being circled in PMs and as far as i know 0 Watchers. I don't know if a bunch of trackers are lying or if flamewheel is messing with our heads. | ||
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On August 11 2010 04:41 SouthRawrea wrote: Ooh just realized how bad it'd make me look if YM flipped red haha. Oh dear. Should I do what Bill Murray openly did and try to please the rest of the town? :/ Nah I'm good making my own decisions and I'm not too familiar with the whole argument against the playstyles of various players so I really can't have much comment on that unless I'm sheeping. Don't worry, if you post pictures of you finished back yard i promise not to lynch you | ||
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C9: A 7 player game wit 4 set up possiblities, each with a 25% chance of happening. The players do not know what the set up is. -1 Cop, 1 Doc, 2 Mafia, 3 Vanilla town -1 Cop, 2 Mafia, 4 Vanilla town -1 Doc, 2 Mafia, 4 Vanilla town -2 Mafia, 5 Vanilla town | ||
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On August 11 2010 05:51 Bill Murray wrote: i'm not even in any circle, believe it or not. If BrownBear didn't want outed, he wouldn't have told his role to half the game thread. He was going to die if I didn't post that. He really needs medic protection, but don't forget that he could be scum fakeclaiming. Mad Hatter is a great scumclaim because it's unconfirmable until death. ![[image loading]](http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/loose-lips-sink-ships-1.jpg) On August 11 2010 04:36 rastaban wrote: Believe it or not there are 4 tracker claims being circled in PMs and as far as i know 0 Watchers. I don't know if a bunch of trackers are lying or if flamewheel is messing with our heads. ![[image loading]](http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/someone-talked.jpg) On August 09 2010 15:10 Chezinu wrote: wait where did I hear this before.. You were totally right then and your totally right now. Without further a due. "I am The Tracker!" if there is more than one tracker, I am The Tracker and the other person is the "other tracker" or just "a tracker" ![[image loading]](http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/ww2%20loose%20lips.jpg) This Public Service Announcement brought to you be the Long Blue Life Foundation | ||
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On August 11 2010 07:33 XeliN wrote: Lynch target incoming shortly With 3.5 hours left to lynch it had better have good evidence and come soon because some people won't be back in time to change votes. That is the problem with a late play like this, it can be too late. | ||
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On August 11 2010 11:06 XeliN wrote: ........ at least this has verified brownbear as being guaranteed town. I don't follow, how does this verify him? | ||
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On August 11 2010 09:41 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote: i thought you said you weren't in the blue circle, rastaban If I was you can be sure this wouldn't have happened. I know who most of the circle is but I am just town looking in and messaging then when I can. After this maybe it is better that I wasn't part lol. | ||
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On August 12 2010 22:22 Foolishness wrote: So BM took a hit last night, and Pyrry still thinks he and I are both mafia? Pika Chu Pika Chu Pika Chu BM didn't actually take the hit, he later says he is joking around. | ||
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On August 13 2010 02:07 BrownBear wrote: I have reason to believe rastaban is lying about getting roleblocked. I am voting for him until he 'splains himself. very interesting, seeing as the only way to doubt my claim is to either know the mafia pulled there roleblock (assuming they can/would) which only mafia would know. OR to know someone else who was roleblocked. As anyone can be RBed claiming it doesn't reveal anything about you. As such there is 0 reason for someone to hold back on this claim. As such I have no 'splaining I can do since all I am doing is relaying the PM I received. | ||
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On August 13 2010 02:15 BrownBear wrote: I'm not sayin' anything until my contacts give me the okay, but I'm just noticing how your roleblock was veeeery convenient for you... I also noticed how your circle blues didn't get hit, being as I know the roles of most of the people in it I don't think it would have fared so well if I was passing the information off to the mafia. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + and hopefully convince Xelin and co. to not lynch someone last minute at random instead. Here I present my case against none other than Bumatlarge + Show Spoiler + Post from last game day 1: On July 18 2010 12:47 bumatlarge wrote: One could argue about the likeliness of certain outcomes, so I think using an RNG would be alot better Post from this game day 1 On August 06 2010 12:24 bumatlarge wrote: RNG is pure evil, agreed. Yeah lynch divinek! But I guess in his defense, he posts like that normally. Look at last game, it may seem like hes trying to create a persona as town, but I think you should judge him based the direction of his posts in general. He just comes off that way because he is a fa+ Show Spoiler + bulous opinion maker <3 But by all means, lets lynch him first if no inactives rear their ugly and obvious head. So when he was town he claims RNG is "alot better" This game he says "RNG is pure evil" Am I reading this wrong? I wanted to review more of his posts but I think this alone might be enough to lynch on. It doesn’t matter at this point if RNG is better or not, that isn't the point. When he is town he believes it is "alot better" and now one game later he says it is evil, that isn't slowly changing your mind that is a major flip! Since I reviewed all his posts last games I have a pretty good read on his town play, I wanted go through all his posts this game and see if there are more discrepancies. Lie 1 + Show Spoiler + On August 09 2010 10:01 bumatlarge wrote: I think BM defending can seem scummy in a certain light, but honestly I dont think he is scum from what Ive seen. His posts are fluffy, but I think he would be a bit more careful if he was red. Ill try to gather some things on him if im alive after the night. Hopefully im on the lesser end of the KP spectrum Never actually followed through, very typical scum play. (see last game where I claim I will switch my joke vote on citizen but then don’t since everyone up for lynch was town I wanted to leave my vote spread out. And this makes lie 2 + Show Spoiler + On August 09 2010 11:47 bumatlarge wrote: Oh wow Pyrr, I got the same exact PM from LSB, that PM WHORE! Also, LSB and I got talking before he died, and I guess since night is over and we hopefully have some blues communicating, I can safely post this. I think we may have found real reason LSB died. Sure he pushed for the plan but he wasn’t even part of it, and killing him would only legitimize it. But here we have a PM that says tried to implicate Divinek (a known townie now) and others as scum. The mafia knew who wasn’t scum so this is great for them to be able to post spreading suspicion around. + Show Spoiler + On August 10 2010 01:47 tree.hugger wrote: The difference between your play this game, and your play last game is really really suspicious. There's a massive FoS on you, and you're acting like a child, throwing suspicion around and trying to get back at the people who accused you. Plus, I'll use the same argument I used last time, if we lynch you, it confirms a lot of people. I guess you could say the same thing about BM, but I'm pretty sure BM is mafia, while you've looked nothing but suspicious from the first minute of the game. On August 10 2010 01:47 bumatlarge wrote: The fact that you play angry, jump to conclusions and generally are very unhelpful doesnt help either. @KF: BB can still be vanilla, as I think someone stated that people are told if they are waxed no matter their role. Also, can mafia refuse to RB? On August 10 2010 01:56 bumatlarge wrote: Dont throw the 'confirm' word around treehugger, you cant really confirm anyone without facts. And facts mean dead people and blue roles. Use 'towny likelyhood' and a 1-10 chart 5 being dead even uncertainty. For instance young is a 3 from what I can tell, and chez is a -10. So scummy its practically town lol... <3 chez On August 10 2010 02:04 tree.hugger wrote: If we waited for people to be 100% confirmed every game, we'd never get anything done. On August 10 2010 03:09 bumatlarge wrote: Just saying dont generalize everyoen who has disagreed with young as 'confirmed' if he is mafia. I mean everyone seems to be butting heads, I wouldnt put it past scum to do the same thing, especially with someone like young. Artanis, this is the only plausible plan for scum to put foolish as a reg mafia is if when a watcher and DT check, watcher would assume the DT is framer or foolish is red. As watcher I would push foolish, if not claim, because then watcher can get a confirmed DT, or confirmed framer. The watcher would then get priority med protection while foolish gets lynched OR framer still frames foolish even when hes scum, and he would get himself killed, while the framer would have to fake a active blue role the rest of the game. Both the framer and DT would be unknown to each other andif framer doesnt claim DT he would be lynched before the DT. If he does claim DT, watcher can confuse either by asking them to check each other or a random person. The framer would have to guess DT, while the DT checks normally regardless of who it is. Likelihood of 3 DTs is very small, so watcher would point at the liar, netting 2 scum and keeping the DT safe. I see no reason for foolish to not choose GF, as he only sacrifices himself for towny confusion if he isnt lynched immediately. If watcher, DT and framer all target foolish, then previous situation, assuming framer overrides GF.Other blues would have to not act, and multiple watchers or DTs would not hinder the situation. I think... it might be better to try with BB, because its assumed GF picks veteran? if foolish is a vet or GF, then the probability of BB being a more unique role without being GF increases the likelihood of his innocence. The more people who put themselves forward in situations that would require the GF role get away with, the better the chances that one of them are legitimate. Is this logic sound? My head hurts someone else think for me. Here we have a series of posts between tree.hugger and bumatlarge. Both are pushing for the YM lynch and saying BM is probably legit. Remember we still haven’t gotten that promised post analysis on why he is legit from bumatlarge. The interesting thing is the way he quickly calls out the line about being confirmed. When I was mafia last game we would specificly look for things like that in each other’s posts to call them on to create a fake sense of conflict. We would be in IRC saying things like, that is a good post but I will call you on such and such so make sure you are ready to defend it. + Show Spoiler + On August 12 2010 23:27 bumatlarge wrote: I cant really put my finger on the BM and Foolishness arguement, but I guess Im in no place to talk since i "didnt roleclaim" Im going to put my vote on xelin until he rectifies this. On August 13 2010 01:02 Hesmyrr wrote: Why? The framer is dead and no blue roles were sniped. On August 13 2010 01:09 bumatlarge wrote: Because he is screwing me over. I dont want to be default lynch because he doesnt remember who roleclaimed. Ill switch my vote to whoever he wants as soon as he fixes it. His is trying to get Xelin a confirmed townie lynched, and his reasoning is because he thinks his claim wasn’t handled right? Why not try and find scum instead. SUMMARY So this game we have 2 lies, missing content, all his big posts are just PM lists. Now let me mention for a moment what isn’t here. Content and Humor. The last game I played I was scum and tasked with analyzing bumatlarge (reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133561¤tpage=131#2613). He was so pro-town that I couldn’t frame him even though I wanted to. In the end the closest I could get was to say he was 12% scum. Anything more and I felt it was too risky. This game it isn’t hard to notice the difference. How did someone go from such strong town play to now being caught in lies and heavy suspicion? As I went through his posts this game, they lacked a lot of his characteristic humor that he used last game. This seems like a minor thing, but they all point to a change in his playing method. Why, I believe it is because he is mafia this time around. It is for these reasons that I will be voting for Bumatlarge. | ||
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On August 14 2010 01:46 bumatlarge wrote: Quote where I say BM is probably legit. On August 09 2010 10:01 bumatlarge wrote: I think BM defending can seem scummy in a certain light, but honestly I dont think he is scum from what Ive seen. His posts are fluffy, but I think he would be a bit more careful if he was red. Ill try to gather some things on him if im alive after the night. Hopefully im on the lesser end of the KP spectrum You say right here you "honestly" don't think he is scum. I would assume that means he is probably town (or ninja) which I would classify as "legit". There are other posts where you argue for YM over BM as well. Why are you so worried about this line? I agreed with you, I wanted to go after YM not BM. I will say I think BM is legit... though if you are red I will have to seriously reconsider. | ||
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On August 14 2010 02:05 bumatlarge wrote: I did agree with tree that RNGing an inactive is preferable instead of by PL. I actually wanted to implement a perfect RNG Method, where two people generate numbers, PM them to someone, he adds them together and goes through the list (if it went over, it would go back to the start and continue) and bam we have a target. The PM guy would post numbers to ensure no foul play. It sounded so convoluted that I didnt bother posting it... Id rather divine then some other random person at that point. I would have killed him first night if I could >=] alright maybe as a vig I would have waited, for towns sake. I agree with you there, Divinek had the scummiest posting I have seen this game. I would have pushed for his lynch day 2 if Foolishness hadn't assured me he was green and contributing behind the scenes. | ||
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Welcome Ace. Mafia is down to 2 KP, so GO town! | ||
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On August 14 2010 01:14 rastaban wrote: Ok, not a surprise, and a lot of people have already suspected him, but I want to add some hard evidence to back up the suspicions + Show Spoiler + and hopefully convince Xelin and co. to not lynch someone last minute at random instead. Here I present my case against none other than Bumatlarge + Show Spoiler + Post from last game day 1: On July 18 2010 12:47 bumatlarge wrote: One could argue about the likeliness of certain outcomes, so I think using an RNG would be alot better Post from this game day 1 On August 06 2010 12:24 bumatlarge wrote: RNG is pure evil, agreed. Yeah lynch divinek! But I guess in his defense, he posts like that normally. Look at last game, it may seem like hes trying to create a persona as town, but I think you should judge him based the direction of his posts in general. He just comes off that way because he is a fa+ Show Spoiler + bulous opinion maker <3 But by all means, lets lynch him first if no inactives rear their ugly and obvious head. So when he was town he claims RNG is "alot better" This game he says "RNG is pure evil" Am I reading this wrong? I wanted to review more of his posts but I think this alone might be enough to lynch on. It doesn’t matter at this point if RNG is better or not, that isn't the point. When he is town he believes it is "alot better" and now one game later he says it is evil, that isn't slowly changing your mind that is a major flip! Since I reviewed all his posts last games I have a pretty good read on his town play, I wanted go through all his posts this game and see if there are more discrepancies. Lie 1 + Show Spoiler + On August 09 2010 10:01 bumatlarge wrote: I think BM defending can seem scummy in a certain light, but honestly I dont think he is scum from what Ive seen. His posts are fluffy, but I think he would be a bit more careful if he was red. Ill try to gather some things on him if im alive after the night. Hopefully im on the lesser end of the KP spectrum Never actually followed through, very typical scum play. (see last game where I claim I will switch my joke vote on citizen but then don’t since everyone up for lynch was town I wanted to leave my vote spread out. And this makes lie 2 + Show Spoiler + On August 09 2010 11:47 bumatlarge wrote: Oh wow Pyrr, I got the same exact PM from LSB, that PM WHORE! Also, LSB and I got talking before he died, and I guess since night is over and we hopefully have some blues communicating, I can safely post this. I think we may have found real reason LSB died. Sure he pushed for the plan but he wasn’t even part of it, and killing him would only legitimize it. But here we have a PM that says tried to implicate Divinek (a known townie now) and others as scum. The mafia knew who wasn’t scum so this is great for them to be able to post spreading suspicion around. + Show Spoiler + On August 10 2010 01:47 tree.hugger wrote: The difference between your play this game, and your play last game is really really suspicious. There's a massive FoS on you, and you're acting like a child, throwing suspicion around and trying to get back at the people who accused you. Plus, I'll use the same argument I used last time, if we lynch you, it confirms a lot of people. I guess you could say the same thing about BM, but I'm pretty sure BM is mafia, while you've looked nothing but suspicious from the first minute of the game. On August 10 2010 01:47 bumatlarge wrote: The fact that you play angry, jump to conclusions and generally are very unhelpful doesnt help either. @KF: BB can still be vanilla, as I think someone stated that people are told if they are waxed no matter their role. Also, can mafia refuse to RB? On August 10 2010 01:56 bumatlarge wrote: Dont throw the 'confirm' word around treehugger, you cant really confirm anyone without facts. And facts mean dead people and blue roles. Use 'towny likelyhood' and a 1-10 chart 5 being dead even uncertainty. For instance young is a 3 from what I can tell, and chez is a -10. So scummy its practically town lol... <3 chez On August 10 2010 02:04 tree.hugger wrote: If we waited for people to be 100% confirmed every game, we'd never get anything done. On August 10 2010 03:09 bumatlarge wrote: Just saying dont generalize everyoen who has disagreed with young as 'confirmed' if he is mafia. I mean everyone seems to be butting heads, I wouldnt put it past scum to do the same thing, especially with someone like young. Artanis, this is the only plausible plan for scum to put foolish as a reg mafia is if when a watcher and DT check, watcher would assume the DT is framer or foolish is red. As watcher I would push foolish, if not claim, because then watcher can get a confirmed DT, or confirmed framer. The watcher would then get priority med protection while foolish gets lynched OR framer still frames foolish even when hes scum, and he would get himself killed, while the framer would have to fake a active blue role the rest of the game. Both the framer and DT would be unknown to each other andif framer doesnt claim DT he would be lynched before the DT. If he does claim DT, watcher can confuse either by asking them to check each other or a random person. The framer would have to guess DT, while the DT checks normally regardless of who it is. Likelihood of 3 DTs is very small, so watcher would point at the liar, netting 2 scum and keeping the DT safe. I see no reason for foolish to not choose GF, as he only sacrifices himself for towny confusion if he isnt lynched immediately. If watcher, DT and framer all target foolish, then previous situation, assuming framer overrides GF.Other blues would have to not act, and multiple watchers or DTs would not hinder the situation. I think... it might be better to try with BB, because its assumed GF picks veteran? if foolish is a vet or GF, then the probability of BB being a more unique role without being GF increases the likelihood of his innocence. The more people who put themselves forward in situations that would require the GF role get away with, the better the chances that one of them are legitimate. Is this logic sound? My head hurts someone else think for me. Here we have a series of posts between tree.hugger and bumatlarge. Both are pushing for the YM lynch and saying BM is probably legit. Remember we still haven’t gotten that promised post analysis on why he is legit from bumatlarge. The interesting thing is the way he quickly calls out the line about being confirmed. When I was mafia last game we would specificly look for things like that in each other’s posts to call them on to create a fake sense of conflict. We would be in IRC saying things like, that is a good post but I will call you on such and such so make sure you are ready to defend it. + Show Spoiler + On August 12 2010 23:27 bumatlarge wrote: I cant really put my finger on the BM and Foolishness arguement, but I guess Im in no place to talk since i "didnt roleclaim" Im going to put my vote on xelin until he rectifies this. On August 13 2010 01:02 Hesmyrr wrote: Why? The framer is dead and no blue roles were sniped. On August 13 2010 01:09 bumatlarge wrote: Because he is screwing me over. I dont want to be default lynch because he doesnt remember who roleclaimed. Ill switch my vote to whoever he wants as soon as he fixes it. His is trying to get Xelin a confirmed townie lynched, and his reasoning is because he thinks his claim wasn’t handled right? Why not try and find scum instead. SUMMARY So this game we have 2 lies, missing content, all his big posts are just PM lists. Now let me mention for a moment what isn’t here. Content and Humor. The last game I played I was scum and tasked with analyzing bumatlarge (reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133561¤tpage=131#2613). He was so pro-town that I couldn’t frame him even though I wanted to. In the end the closest I could get was to say he was 12% scum. Anything more and I felt it was too risky. This game it isn’t hard to notice the difference. How did someone go from such strong town play to now being caught in lies and heavy suspicion? As I went through his posts this game, they lacked a lot of his characteristic humor that he used last game. This seems like a minor thing, but they all point to a change in his playing method. Why, I believe it is because he is mafia this time around. It is for these reasons that I will be voting for Bumatlarge. | ||
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On August 14 2010 12:07 Ace wrote: Oh I guess so then. So a DT could just check him in a future night. But I'd still like to hear the plan that got him confirmed. Also is there any other relevant information I need to know detailing bumatlarge, like who else pushed for his lynch? Also how did Divinek become confirmed townie? Was it confirmed via his death or before that? There are reports of up to 4 trackers in this game (don't know how many confirmed) so I assume that is how he is confirmed. Since the framer doesn't affect tracking, if he went anywhere that night but the kill, he would be confirmed. (GF would just be shown staying at home). | ||
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I was looking at the voting records and we have Misder and Tree both really pushing for YM's lynch so I am suspecting he "may" be legit. but more importantly I found something very odd. Day 2 lynch it is between YM and BM Then all of a sudden the "Pandain" wagon forms. Infun has the choice of those three candidates. What does he do? He votes Abstain... and then he changes it to himself. Now Day 4 comes along and everyone begins to see the summiness of bum. The wagon forms on Bum he is about to be lynched and what happens? iNfuNdiBuLuM waits till the last second and votes YM. Why?? There were almost 0 new arguments for YM yesterday. so what made him change his mind. He went from abstaining in the previous vote tally when YM had a chance of being lynched to voting him the following day. I make the case that he abstained for one reason on the second day. He knew the mafia had people on pandain's and YM's wagons and wanted to spread his vote. He votes for himself so he wouldn't show up. I present to you that on the following day he sees him teamate headed towards the noose. He wants to help, but knows he has to wait for the right moment to sway the votes. As he waits the mob grows larger and larger trying to lynch bum. He waits until the last moment (Flamewheel warns that if he doesn't post he will be modkilled, minutes later he votes) Knowing he has no hope of changing things he tries to conceal his vote in the other wagon. If he had really felt like YM was scum he would have voted for him the previous day. | ||
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For your convenience I have compiled a list of every post from known mafia members referencing Infundibulum I found it very interesting. The list hear includes any most made that had the word "Infundibulum" in it no matter how deeply nested in quotes or spoilers, I hope you find it just as enlightening as I. Bumatlarge: + Show Spoiler + On August 09 2010 14:54 bumatlarge wrote: :/ is this now a joke game? Here's the deal. 1. Lynch some more inactive person like oh gee i dont know Artanis[Xp] KF91 Pandain Amber[LighT] iNfuNdiBuLuM Roffles larjarse SouthRawrea BrownBear Forgive me if they have been active but i havent seen to much of them. 2. If you really want to accuse someone, do it with one simple post. Bold their name at the top and then analyze all you want. Mafia like nothing more then when EVERY SINGLE PERSON point to the person next to them. Honestly who hasnt been accused of being a "certain scum" Just calm down, and present your argument CLEARLY. We can then democraticly discuss this and vote on a proper lynch victim. 3. We have information hopefully that mafia doesnt have. If you are a well informed town keep it to yourself unless someone is confirmed. I.E. We kill the GF, because no one is confirmed until that person is dead. Include that in your gigantic analyzing also. Thank for riding Bum airlines. On August 09 2010 15:21 bumatlarge wrote: Not sure if im following... You realize mafia might have framer and roleblocker, right? Tree.hugger + Show Spoiler + On August 10 2010 03:36 tree.hugger wrote: All the fun is gone because he blew it. But we have better targets to go after. Or you could just explain for him instead of being unhelpful and spamming? Basically Youngminii's posting has deviated drastically from the posting in his previous two games. He's resorted to chainsaw attacks against those who accuse him. Misder + Show Spoiler + On August 13 2010 09:39 Misder wrote: PMs from/to Foolishness + Show Spoiler + Can you vote youngminii? ----------------------------------------- Original Message: Who else do you think is in the mafia? I will try to do analysis to the people on the list. Probably one that is newer cause you know the older ones much better. ----------------------------------------- Original Message: VayeshMoru is BloodyCobbler, he accidentally gave it away. If you haven't done so, please vote for youngminii, we need to keep the pressure up to find out for sure what alignment he is. The earlier we do it the better, since if he defends himself well (which he hasn't so far) we'll have enough time to switch to somebody else. I could see Roffles being a ninja, but not DTA. I think DTA is just a townie this game, but I haven't had time to focus on any of these two players so this is just inital thoughts. ----------------------------------------- Original Message: Ok, the other game that youngminii was in was the Godfather Mafia. I don't actually know how this system goes, but I can still do analysis on this. This was the mafia game that got youngminii a reputation of doing really well. He was townie this game the entire time. In that game, he posted about ~10% of the posts in that thread. This was a 20 person game, so on average, one should post ~5%. Granted, he was one of the last people alive in that game, but I will still say that he still 'spammed'. Actually, while I was reading his posts, it actually seemed like he mostly posted good plans/analysis instead of actual spam, or at least he 's balancing it out. He goes through plans, and figure out holes in them so that the town can make a better one. A lot of his posts are three sentences or lower, but most of these posts aren't really spam. His longer posts are always really good, either a plan or analysis. When he talks to others, he is mostly like, "but you're wrong". Its not really angry, more like, you're stupid. He's very proactive in this game, like a town leader. Even though it was his first game, he is talking to everyone, and if I didn' know better, I would think that he was a veteran at the game. The game that you and I were in the same game as him, it seemed much more spam, but there were still some good posts in there. He did cause a lot of problems in PM land, and he could have done much better. When he was under attack, he was angrier. I'm not sure if you read the thread after you died or not. As for actual improvement, he claims that he is trying to spam less. However, it seems very very out of his style. idk. If he wasw trying to improve, I still think that he would write good posts like he did in his first game, but right now, he isn't doing that. It seems like he is posting less, but its like all spam and defending himself. He is also getting angry. On different people, does it seem to you that roffles and DTA are ninjas? And what do you think of VayeshMoru? Do you think he is a smurf, and if so, of who? ----------------------------------------- Original Message: Yeah, I still say do the analysis anyways. It's night time now but don't take too long. This is also his 3rd game according to your list. I only played in one with him (I died first night) so I have no idea what he did in the other game. We must be careful to account for actual improvement. Yes, he did spam a lot when he was a townie. He got criticized harshly for it. I'd expect him to tone it down a little bit as he'd figure too much is too much at some point. ----------------------------------------- Original Message: I'm sorry. I didn't have time to do what you requested. I will probably be able to do it tomorrow during the night in the game where I won't be doing much anyways. My analysis without going actually looking for stuff: During the last mafia game in which I was with youngminii in, I was always thinking of lynching him if it wasn't for being a confirmed townie. I think this game he's a bit more passive, but he did spam a lot in the beginning of the day. I think that he's afraid to make a mistake and get lynched. I'm inclined to say that he is mafia or a blue role just because he is more cautious, but you never know. ----------------------------------------- Original Message: Okay. I think this is love1another's second game cause I seem to remember seeing his name before. It's only the first day, should frankly you don't have a lot to of by in terms of trusting me. But right now I'm providing you a way to analyze people based on their past games. If I was mafia I'm pretty much helping you find my allies. youngminii looks the most interesting right now. What you can do is go look at his past 2 games and read his posts, then compare to what he's doing this game. I've played one game with him so I sort of know a bit about it but that's it. Look at what his role was each game and compare to this one. Things you might want to consider are: frequency of posting, length of posts (lengthy posts compared to one-liners), interaction with other players (does he yell at others or is he passive?). I know he kinda has a big ego, so look to make sure that's consistent through all his games. I won't be able to catch up on the thread until close to day end unfortunately. ----------------------------------------- Original Message: New VayeshMoru love1another LSB larjarse 2nd mafia game Pandain SouthRawrea 3rd mafia game Divinek youngminii rastaban Misder Artanis[xp], bumatlarge, Jayme, Hesmyrr all have more than 3 games I think this is right. Question: why should I trust you? ----------------------------------------- Original Message: yeah yeah whatever, we got some work to do. Right now I'm trying to draw a preliminary mafia list. Kinda hard cause nobody's sticking out this game (compared to last game I had 2 mafia members pegged relatively easily, of course I was totally wrong about 2 others I thought for sure as well). Here's what you can do to help the both of us right now. Get a list together of everyone in the game who has never played before. Then get a list of people who this is their second or third game. I ask you this because there are multiple people here I am not very familiar with, including yourself. Getting their records straight would be beneficial. To start, the people I know well (so you don't have to check up on them) are: Chezinu, BM, Pyrry, DTA, Xelin, Amberlight, chaoser, brownbear, KF91, infundibulum, iaaan, OPZ, tree hugger, roffles. Anyone not on that list should have played a total of less than 3 games. Knowing which games they've played in is good because then we can compare their behavior to deduce what role they might be. ----------------------------------------- Original Message: Hey! My first PM ever besides role PMs! Youngminii and Pandain are always spamming in the previous game. They both acted pretty scummy last game, but both turned out town. I don't think that Divinek spammed last game in the beginning tho. But Divinek hates me probably because of the way I played last game, which I don't blame. I always play like that though... That leads to another question. Can you help me improve my play? I feel like I act a bit on the scummy side, even though I am town. ----------------------------------------- Original Message: Yo, we gotta get to talking eventually so better sooner than later. What do you think of the youngminii divinek Pandain trio? They have all been incredibly active and have provided enough spam to feed a family of four for a month. And I already stated that bumalarge and I do not have PMs On August 14 2010 10:06 Misder wrote: I claimed to Xelin as townie, but he PMed me first. I sent it late, so I'm not sure if you got it. I'm starting to believe that larjarse is actually just a town idiot. He just has nothing to do. However, he still has not defended my post against him, so I don't think I'm going to change my vote. I think that bumalarge and youngminii are both good lynch targets; I just think that larjarse should defend himself before I change my vote. And it gives him something to do On August 15 2010 15:23 Misder wrote: I was just giving the reason that Foolishness gave me. On August 15 2010 15:46 Misder wrote: Alright, if someone checked me, and I came up as mafia, then I can only give one explaination; that there is another framer in the mafia. I think this makes sense, since from what I've heard, we have at least 3 trackers. I'm not sure how many of these are true, but, if flame lets the town have 3 trackers, then he may as well have given the mafia 2 framers. This is my only explanation, as I know that I am town, and I will defend myself against any more claims. And btw, VM is not confirmed. He may as well be part of the mafia, and this may be part of his plan. I'm not sure, but remember, VM is actually BC and will trick you all, just like he tricked the town last game... We shouldn't be too quick to listen to him, at all. BC told me last game, when you make a list always include 1 mafia in it. Look at Bum's inactive list, this is the closest anyone gets to actually talking about Infun in this entire section. Tree has 1 single post that references Infundibulum's name, and he is merely quoting a line. Misder's posts are all third hand. It seems strange to me that those that call out inactivity would ignore Infundibulum. In fact the three known mafia, in all their posts over the entire course of this game have only said his name ONE TIME!!!! Why? he is there kinsman and with his hiding behind the scenes if they were to even slightly finger him he would have to come into the public spotlight and reveal his colors. The mafia not only wants to be clean, but they don't want to be linked. That is the bane of the mafia because if one falls then they all can. So they separate themselves from one another, but in doing so they are actually creating a link by virtue of the missing information. We have here a gaping hole where there should be words. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On August 11 2010 09:41 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote: i thought you said you weren't in the blue circle, rastaban On August 11 2010 11:36 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote: I was confused because a few pages back (60 something) you said you weren't involved in the circles and then you came out and said something to the effect of "why didn't you follow the points I PMd you" but i guess that makes sense. and i'm not positive but i think there are at least 2 circles. Since these quotes I have been RBed and Shot at (thanks friendly boyscout I <3 you) I believe he was pushing for information here believing I actually had a role and was part of the town circle. I have checked and in thread he claims he believes Xelin and will vote pandain, but then actually changes it to abstain and then himself. He never gives any reason and is never called on it. He was about to be modkilled day 3 for not posting, bum is about to be lynched and what is his post minutes before the lynch goes through + Show Spoiler + On August 14 2010 10:39 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote: Hm i see. I was confused about the night hits (talked to BM about it, but his story was different from Opz post above). What Opz said made sense. That said, i'm not sure why the other two ninja (?) hits are for sure confirmed but youngminii's isn't? How do we know how many chopsticks were used? So i guess the situation is a) one of the town hits is a liar or b) someone got hit and didn't claim it, right? Either way you guys can just track or dt check whoever you think the liar is so i don't think this is that big of a problem. Can anyone clarify that BM and Artanis are in fact confirmed? On August 14 2010 10:46 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote: ebwop: verify, not clarify :p No word of the pressing lynch at hand, no opinions on why he voted YM. I believe iNfuNdiBuLuM is Red and will be voting him alongside Misder. Lets get 2 tonight and lower the mafia KP to 1 :D | ||
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Not sure what you are trying to do here, care to explain? Also I am headed to bed, feel free to ask question regarding my above posts and I will answer them tomorrow. | ||
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Here are a few: He told me not to try and get Divinek lynched as he was probably town: He was, mafia would never have defended such an easy lynch He and I both felt Bumatlarge and Misder were good lynch targets for the last few days. no way Mafia would bus 2 of there own like that. Here are some additional reasons I defend him: He has worked hard organizing regular townies to catch reds, forming circles of information gathering, rather than basing it off of roles (mafia wants your roles). We have Misder openly stating he is working with foolishness in PMs, but he Vehemently denies having any PMs with bumatlarge. Mafia doesn't want linked, no way they are going to openly state they are working together. Lastly roles were not random this game, they were Flamewheelinized. Foolishness dies night 1 every game, FW in his all knowing mercy gave Foolishness the vet role so he could finally live to see night 2. Remember the previous game was created specifically for Foolishness and he died the first night. I don't think mafia would pull a hit night 1 when they know every medic was sitting xelin due to the plan. it was like a free night to kill whoever they wanted. Even the bus driver and watchers were on xelin so there wasn't any risk of being caught either. Plus these plans can go awry so easily (see how he is almost lynched this whole game) it was an awful first move and mafia wouldn't have made it because they gain nothing. We know it doesn't confirm him, and it just makes us more likely to lych him. | ||
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On August 16 2010 07:47 VayeshMoru wrote: As for "knowing" the stuff I did? you found out today. When you offered to exchange a red for a name, and instead pulled this lame stunt. You don't deserve to win BM since your actions don't help town at all. Instead you should have just offed me at night and had the game end with epic hilarity of us offing eachother. I find the fact that he had to bribe someone to even get the name funny. The second town circle (the non-blue one) realized it early on since BC was untrackable night 1, but still ended up as part of the circle only a ninja could have done that. Having learned that you offered the RB name for the other Ninjas name but didn't ante it up makes me doubt you knowledge. I propose the reverse. We the town control the medics, if you don't give up the RB's name before lynch. And he gets lynched and confirms that he is that role our medic will be on BC tonight. If you give up the name and he is legitimately the RBer we will but the protection on you instead. That is the best I can offer you, you have already lied to the town so you have to trust us now. | ||
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On August 16 2010 08:01 SouthRawrea wrote: Whew sorry back from a short trip and BOOM CALLED IT on Misder :D. Well done, when going through his posts, half were defending himself from you | ||
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On August 17 2010 04:24 ~OpZ~ wrote: So instead of posting more suspects you try and defend yourself? -____- Best defense is a good offense. Anyway...Do you suppose Bill is lying about checking you red? I admit I will be a little surprised if SR really does flip red, but since it is the lead we have from Bill and it gives us instant information when the the lynch triggers, it is probably the wisest choice of action. | ||
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On August 17 2010 09:43 ~OpZ~ wrote: Town. We have a choice her. We can guarantee the RBer dies tonight by lynching a hatter. Or we can lynch south and possibly get played by Bill Murray... YOU MAKE THE DECISION NOW. ASK XELIN WHO TO VOTE FOR. I have to go. Xelin is against this plan cuz BM could of lied. But I believe it because he said it before going ape shit insane. PLZ....if South is town, Roleblocker lives and mafia has two kp. If we lynch hatter, role blocker dies and mafia has one KP. YOU DECIDE Not sure I follow you on the hatter lynching. Are you talking about BB? | ||
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On August 17 2010 11:49 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: who all was pushing larjarse's lynch? BM and Misder I believe | ||
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On August 17 2010 23:42 youngminii wrote: Wait why is the ninja hitting the medic? I don't understand this at all. If you were ninja, wouldn't you hit BC so that you would win the game? I'm assuming he's going to hit you and win the game, unless you're working with a medic that's going to protect you, which I doubt. Hmm... I doubt you're scum pretending to be ninja 'cause that'll just cause other ninjas to hit you. I don't know.. Btw amber FoS = finger of suspicion. Young, he lied about his check last night in exchange for the other Ninja's information. He said SR was the RB. This was a lie as he was townie so he know he dies tonight. He is angry that he is going to lose, so he is trying to lash out at the town for what he perceives as an injustice towards him. You could say that he has decided assisting the mafia is the best course of action for him. no doubt we will find his corpse in the morning. | ||
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On August 18 2010 12:00 LSB wrote: Haha, What happened to the plan anyways? I got a hold of the Role list and I was :'( I think 1/2 the trackers followed the plan. Chez and I did our own thing because we are rebels like that I had actually sent my target in already, hence why I pushed for the plan to not be used but it was too late. Someone later told me you can change your target but at the time I was unaware of this. | ||
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On August 18 2010 12:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Actually, you would have won. My part in getting you lynched was you lying about your role + confirming my legitimacy to xelin as ninja. You claimed 4 total ninja to rasta and claimed ninja to him, but then claimed like green to one or two others. So I told xelin you were fake claiming ninja and had claimed green. Then you claimed something to him, and he + others talked in pm land and you then were lynched. I honestly thought you were being a reallly stupid red or the like. Had you however told rasta the correct amount of total ninja I'd have shot you just in case. Had you not been lynched youd have easily won it. Of course I wouldn't have told who he is the number had been right. of course shortly after that I realized you could have been faking me out by giving me the wrong number so I would mistrust my ninja and reveal him to you. I should have checked with him first when I learned the #s didn't match up. Did you realize he was the person who was my ninja before all that? | ||
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On August 18 2010 12:17 BloodyC0bbler wrote: I knew it was him or pyrr based on in thread posting then pyrr told me you claimed ninja (wtf?) so I figured Pandain was lying. I am pretty sure He would have offed me since i would have checked him first. Or he would have shot bm or the like. Bah! I realized based on last game, how easy pro-town circles are to pick out. The mafia knows they have to hide it so they try to blend, but town players know they are legit so they are more open. Also they are working on ideas together so they will naturally agree since they have worked out differences before hand. Another thing I noticed but didn't investigate is posting times. After they were revealed I went back through and saw times where we had mafia swapping posts. Now this happens legitimately too, but it could be looked at since mafia will try and organize times to be on together. It was something I was worried about last game when i changed my posting habits to be up later to fit in with my teams schedule. My early mafia reads weren't too well, but I am surprised that all my early town reads were legitimate. As the game progressed and i got more information from some of the better players it was easier to pinpoint mafia then. It was risky, but allying myself with Foolishness first thing day 2 (gambling that he wasn't GF) was the best move I probably could have made. The early game (day 2 start) was crazy fun because there was so much information and I was able to work a lot using logic rather analysis (which is MUCH harder) Chezinu wasn't lying because he called BC out on his post about visiting someone. If he had been mafia fake claiming he wouldn't have targeted someone who specifically said they had gone out. Xelins continual calling for watchers meant we didn't have any making it more likely that all 4 tracker claims were legit. Xelin's group asked me to track BB to get confirmed which meant he was most likely claiming to hatter. LOL, if this had been followed through on then we might have caught the GF much earlier. BC was in the town circle, day2 but hadn't gone out that night so obviously he had to be a ninja. Pyrr actually had told me his claim when he believed I was the ninja so this was more of a confirmation, but I hope I would have spotted it regardless I had Opz and Xelin mixed up though. I knew for that many of the circle to be confirmed without a watcher, one of them had to be a tracker and one a nozy neighbor. I thought Xelin was a tracker as well and had tracked Opz that night but it was the other way around (Occams razon would have helped me here) Foolishness and I weren't in the main town circle so we worked on figuring out the roles. It was funny but the poor blue sniping actually started being a major factor in peoples confirmations for me. If the mafia had gotten more blues early on I think the circles would have fallen apart with infighting. Me getting blocked the 2nd night was too funny, it made the circle very suspicious of me. I was lucky that I had been pretty pro-town or I might have gotten lynched that night. I was really sad that I couldn't stop the Pandain and SouthRawrea lynches. I was certain both were innocent but couldn't convince enough other people. Logically both were sound (A liar and a RCed mafia RB) but I was certain neither actually was red. Some things I learned this game -It is easier to read pro-town than mafia, but just eliminating some suspects can really help. -Town plan's can go horribly awry -Be careful with assumptions. (some of the very worst assumptions day 1 were mine. thanks for making me look stupid flamewheel .-Peoples previous pasting habits is one of the biggest clues to alignment (less about quantity and more about style). -Just get out there and talk, you can learn a lot just by having conversations with people. -There is always information, the lack thereof can be information as well. Thanks everyone who played it was very fun. Foolishness and BloodyC0bbler thanks for pointing me in the right direction and helping me with my analysis. Edit - Also my previous post this game put me over 500. Yay I am contributing | ||
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On August 19 2010 02:40 Ace wrote: So my original statement from months ago is correct? BC in a PM setup = broken?  Yes! On August 19 2010 03:33 flamewheel wrote: I have this hatred, and one of the biggest things is "what sort of plan can town come up with on day 1." Regardless, Watchers are stupid. And having no detectives is lulz. I love the fact that you messed with the role counts. No DT, no watcher, no Vig, and 4 trackers. | ||
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United States2294 Posts
On August 19 2010 03:49 Bill Murray wrote: I feel like the mafia needed a doctor in this Well town only had 1 KP role, and even with the ninja help only 1 died at night. Flamewheel, can you clarify on the tracking roleblockers/framers? In the response I got back from you I thought you said they return the night kill, but one of the other trackers later said that no, it returns the action that they took. | ||
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United States2294 Posts
On August 19 2010 04:01 Bill Murray wrote: not solely for protection, but there needed to be more movement with 4 trackers or people will be confirmed fast (especially when the framer died). The roleblocker can be deduced fairly easily, but a doctor would have been a safer scum role Gotcha, I would like to know for sure how that works because as I said up above my understanding is that the tracker still got the night kill. | ||
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United States2294 Posts
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United States2294 Posts
On August 19 2010 12:40 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: how do I get better at town? We need Ver's town guide.I may not be the best person to judge, but you were very pro-town. We all knew you were without checking you. I think since you were just a normal townie though, you ended up out of the loop on a lot information the blue/black roles had. Xelin got lucky since he was the one checked but other than than that townies didn't have a whole lot to do since everything migrated to PM land by day 3. I hated the way the whole pandain lynch went down because I was hoping to keep up the charade of being a ninja longer with you so I could feed you information without having to reveal my role. | ||
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United States2294 Posts
On August 20 2010 03:16 tree.hugger wrote: I'm somewhat glad I got out when I did. Freed up a lot of time, and things pretty much went south after that. But seriously? Me as a ninja? Poor call. Biggest mafia triumph? When XeliN said "Well at least now BB is confirmed." Biggest failure? Foolishness reading us like a book day one and two. He sent me a PM that listed four of us as under suspicion. Also, after my death, people were speculating about my motivations... but in pretty much every one of my posts and pm's, I was only trying to say exactly what I was thinking as a townie. The Pandain lynch was a terrible play. We should've lynched youngminii. If town had just listened to me from the start, you would've won much sooner! That said, GG WP town. I have a PM somewhere in which I listed you to Foolishness regarding opinions on plans day 1 or 2 and said you were close to the boarder line on being included and he said you were probably innocent so no need to add you. So you at least got past his radar. Yeah his reads were scary accurate. | ||
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